Updated 04:40 pm.EST, Sat November 21, 2009

Church|Sat, Oct. 18 2008 02:11 PM EDT

Deposed Episcopal Bishop Warns Traditionalists Against 'Illiberal Takeover'

By Maria Mackay|Christian Today Reporter

The deposed Episcopal Bishop of Pittsburgh has warned that the “illiberal takeover” of the U.S. Episcopal Church could also happen to the Church of England.

Speaking at a press conference in London on Friday, Bishop Robert Duncan accused The Episcopal Church – the U.S. branch of the worldwide Anglican Communion – of pursuing a “totalitarian political agenda” in which opposition is either silenced or banished after he was deposed without trial.

Duncan was ousted by The Episcopal Church on the grounds of “abandonment of communion” after leading his diocese in severing ties with the national church and realigning with the Province of the Southern Cone in South America.

“Don’t think it won’t happen here. It masquerades as liberality but it is illiberal in the extreme,” he said.

“What has happened in the States - an illiberal takeover of the church - can happen here.”

He said that there had already been signs of such developments in recent gatherings, including the July General Synod and the global Lambeth Conference, a once-a-decade meeting of Anglican bishops held over the summer in Canterbury.

The Episcopal Church had left behind the catholic faith and catholic order, as well as traditional understandings of Scripture, the person of Jesus, and Christian morality, Duncan said.

“The catholic church is all of those who are one with the apostles’ teaching. The Episcopal Church is not at one with the apostles’ teaching.”

Asked what traditionalists in the Church of England should do, he answered, “The most important thing that traditionalists can do is to do mission and to preach the Gospel because we know that the gates of hell won’t prevail against the church and when the church is church it has the Lord’s blessing on it.”

Duncan also spoke of his opposition to plans for a pastoral forum, agreed by bishops at Lambeth, that would act as a "holding bay" for disaffected dioceses and congregations.

The proposal was, he said, “a bridge too far and something that none of the people were any longer open to.”

Addressing plans for the breakaway diocese in Pittsburgh, he said he expected around 20 congregations to choose to remain with The Episcopal Church. Duncan also confirmed plans to retain “Episcopal” in the title of the breakaway diocese, despite the potential for confusion with The Episcopal Church's diocese, which will also include “Episcopal” in the title.

“TEC has no lockup on the name Episcopal," said Duncan.

He added that TEC’s breach with historic faith and order had been so significant that senior bishops in the Church of England, as well as primates of major provinces, were unprepared to recognize TEC’s discipline in deposing Duncan. They include the Bishops of Rochester and Winchester and primates who took part in the June meeting of orthodox Anglicans in Jerusalem, the Global Anglican Future Conference (GAFCON).

Duncan expressed his support for a second Anglican province in North America to replace the current pattern of “interprovincial” interventions taking place there. The Anglican Consultative Council of lay and clergy representatives was working on a proposal for the second province, he said, adding that GAFCON primates plan to meet again before the end of 2008.

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  • Tue Oct 21, 2008 3:21 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 0

    boomershank, I appreciate your words and pray God blesses you in your life and ministry. I also apologize. I keep misspelling your name.

  • Tue Oct 21, 2008 3:00 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 1

    SJ, I was the one who flagged you, I disagree very stongly with your comments, but you are right we need to be respectful of one another. I also flagged myself as I made a very caustic remark pertaining to SJ church and I apologize to SJ and all on this board for my words, actions and thoughts. Thank God for His mercy and grace.

  • Tue Oct 21, 2008 1:37 pm Agree: 3   Disagree: 0

    boomshanker, I didn't flag you, but am wondering now whether you are the one who flagged me. And I too am just trying to follow Jesus' teachings, though you and I may disagree about how to interpret them, but let us at least disagree with mutual respect for one another.

  • Tue Oct 21, 2008 12:58 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    boomer, glad I got to read your post prior to it getting flagged!

  • Tue Oct 21, 2008 12:00 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    I also agree that the size of a church does not equate to Spiritual vitality.However, when I visited the church my aunt attends, I couldn't help but wonder how much longer it would exist, especially since the members are aging and there doesn't seem to be any numeric growth.It doesn't take a mathematician to figure out what is going to happen.This church no longer takes the things of God as seriously as it once did, so what is it offering, other than a social club? What people really need is not being offered there.If I didn't take God's word any more seriously than that, I would just sleep in on Sunday.It's just a big charade, unless you believe in Jesus and His teachings.By the way,I also didn't flag you,sj.

  • Tue Oct 21, 2008 11:04 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    sj,

    You are right, numbers have never been the determining factor for orthodoxy; the increase may be a reflection of our postmodern culture. It remains a fact however; the scriptures require believers to not only love Christ but also to obey him.

    And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;(Hebrews 5:9).

    Oh, by the way, the flagging incident wasn’t from me.

  • Tue Oct 21, 2008 10:56 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    It may have been someone who didn't know what they were doing. I made that mistake the first time I posted on CP.

  • Tue Oct 21, 2008 10:50 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    sj, plus if your view of the Scriptures is a reflection of your church leaders view of the Scriptures, then the answer to your question is definitely, NO!!! Plus in the SBC we have challenged our churches to take a serious look at easy church membership and the lack of discipleship in a number of our churches. Like many evangelical churches we are having no problem getting people in the front door, but we're having a difficult time in keeping them from going out the backdoor. I am grateful to be a part of a denomination that has the honesty to admit we have this problem and more importantly the courage to challenge our churches and church leaders beginning with our Pastors to do something about it.

  • Tue Oct 21, 2008 10:42 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    sj, but how is your denimination doing over all, since there are many SBC churches that are experiencing tremendous growth even in the midst of a decline of the number of baptisms in the SBC?

  • Tue Oct 21, 2008 9:55 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Friends, I am STUNNED that someone just flagged my response as "inappropriate." All I said what that I would hope numbers is not the determination of orthodoxy, since the crowds turned against Jesus. Is that objectionable? I also noted that the membership figures for the Southern Baptists are declining, while my liberal parish is experiencing remarkable growth over the last four years, by +8%, +15%, +22% and now 30% for this year. Then I asked whether that made us right? Someone is flagged to avoid an open discussion!

  • Tue Oct 21, 2008 8:55 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Friends, I would hate to suggest that numbers determines orthodoxy, since the crowds turned against Jesus. But I also believe the number attending Baptists church nation-wide are declining, while the liberal church I attend is enjoying its fourth year of significant increases, +8%, +15%, +22% and more than +30% this year. Does that make us right?

  • Mon Oct 20, 2008 12:13 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 0

    I just experienced what you are talking about boomershank.My aunt invited me to visit the Church she attends, which is very liberal in its teachings.I did so, and what I found is a congregation that is dying, if it is even alive at all.What is sad is that this is a denomination that once stood strongly in its defense of the Christian Faith.It has abandoned this in favor of a more liberal stance.This Church has closed its heart to Christ, and it is just a matter of time before it closes its doors.

  • Sun Oct 19, 2008 8:05 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 0

    This site is so good for coming up with topics for teaching.

    I am amazed at people who call themselves Christian and yet who do not want to obey Christ. Of course, the only one's I have heard complain do not seem to either have a grasp of what God has taught, or do not know Christ.

    Others have already presented scriptural evidence for the need to repent - the fact that Christ and the early church leaders taught the same thing: that we need to turn from sin and turn to God through faith in Christ.

    Whether people like it or not, we are CALLED to repent from our sins and turn to God through faith in Christ (He was sent to suffer and die for our sins, that we might be saved). THAT is the gospel. THAT is what we have been commanded to teach.

    Jesus told his followers to teach what HE had taught.
    Matthew 28:19-20
    19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.

    So regardless of what denomination of which you are part, for eternal life, you must turn from sin to God through faith in Christ, and you need to teach others the same thing. If your church is not teaching this, ask the pastor/priest why not.

  • Sun Oct 19, 2008 7:13 pm Agree: 3   Disagree: 1

    The pharisees were the ones that would not listen to God's word which made them angry and disobedient. The liberals of today will not listen nor obey God's word. So I identify the liberals of today with the pharisees of Jesus' time. The episcopalians, United Methodist and other mainline churches are in decline today, and the main reason is liberalism. The churches that are growing are your more conservative churches such as Pentecostals, Baptists and other Evangelicals. Some churches would be better off just to associate with left wing of the democratic party.

  • Sun Oct 19, 2008 5:38 pm Agree: 3   Disagree: 0

    sj,

    You are right; Jesus and his disciples did associate with the sinners, however, he did so in order to share the gospel. He met people where they were but once they heard the gospel they also had a decision to make; accept Christ and repent or continue living in sin. Here are some examples:

    And, behold, a woman in the city, which WAS a sinner, when she knew that Jesus sat at meat in the Pharisee's house, brought an alabaster box of ointment, (Luke 7:37).

    And Zacchaeus stood, and said unto the Lord: Behold, Lord, the half of my goods I give to the poor; and if I have taken any thing from any man by false accusation, I restore him fourfold (Luke 19:8).

    And after these things he went forth, and saw a publican, named Levi, sitting at the receipt of custom: and he said unto him, Follow me. And he left all, rose up, and followed him. And Levi made him a great feast in his own house: and there was a great company of publicans and of others that sat down with them.

    But their scribes and Pharisees murmured against his disciples, saying, Why do ye eat and drink with publicans and sinners? And Jesus answering said unto them, They that are whole need not a physician; but they that are SICK. I came not to call the righteous, but SINNERS to REPENTANCE (Matthew 5:27-32).

    Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and BE NOT ENTANGLED AGAIN WITH THE YOKE OF BONDAGE (Galatians 5:1).

  • Sun Oct 19, 2008 4:40 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    sj, please explain your take on the clearing of the Temple area not once but twice on the part of Christ?

  • Sun Oct 19, 2008 4:15 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    sj, have you read any of Jesus interactions with the religious leaders of His day, talk about judgement and condemnation? Plus, I don't read anywhere where the sinners He ministered to were ever trying to defend or justify their sinful lifestyle, if they had I'm almost certain He would have dealt with them the same way He dealt with those religious leaders. Plus, you tend to be very good at throwing out generalities, but you never cite where specifically wb and I or others have personally attacked someone, yes we've called several on their views which try to justify a sinful lifestyle, but as a matter of fact there are several people on the other side such as chicago24 and scitsonga who I would have no problem hanging out with if I had the opportunity even though on some issues we are at opposite ends of the issue.

  • Sun Oct 19, 2008 3:48 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 2

    believer, I am not sure you understand the Great Commission, and the call to repentance is not the same thing as your judgment and condemnation. You don't find that kind of judgment and condemnation on the lips of Jesus except to condemn the self-righteous and self-satisfaction of the religious authorities of his day, who are perhaps not unlike yourself. And boomerang you listening to the Holy Spirit and then telling me or others what is what is EXACTLY what the Pharisees were doing in Jesus' day.

  • Sun Oct 19, 2008 2:47 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    sj, Acts 2:38, "Peter said to them, Repent...", Acts 3:19, "Therefore repent...", Acts 8:22, "Therefore repent of this wickedness...", Acts 17:30, "...God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent,..., Acts 26:20, "but kept declaring both to those in Damascus first and also at Jerusalem and then throughout the region of Judea, and even to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, performing deeds appropriate to repentance." So now who has the responsibility for preaching and teaching repentance?

  • Sun Oct 19, 2008 2:43 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    st john is quick to point out how wrong other people are while trying to justify his beliefs. It can not be clearer that the episcopalians has strayed from the faith and he is unwilling to accept it because he is believing a different gospel than what the Apostle Paul preached. I for one would not listen nor accept anything pertaining to st john or the episcopalians and what they say about their beliefs. They are proclaiming a different gospel which according to Paul are cursed. st john this is not being judgmental as you have accused other people, it is listening what the Holy Spirit is saying to believers and are obeying his Word. The Church of God has been given the gift of the discerning of spirits and what the episcopalians are proclaming is not from the Word of God.

  • Sun Oct 19, 2008 2:37 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    sj, in case you forgot God commissioned His Church to join Him in carrying out the Great Commission which includes calling people to repent of their sin.

  • Sun Oct 19, 2008 2:26 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 2

    wbmoore, you are absolutely right! I do NOT like it when conservative Christians call people to repentance. Why don't we leave that to Jesus, and not pretend to put ourselves in his place. I also don't like it when conservative Christians railed against the abolition of slavery or the equality of women or interracial marriage, and when they did so they sounded very much like conservative Christians today.

  • Sun Oct 19, 2008 2:26 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    sj, Jesus did indeed hangout and minister to sinners, but His best friends were repentant sinners. Plus, before you call others judgemental you might want to take a good hard look in the mirror!

  • Sun Oct 19, 2008 2:05 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    St John, you do not like the fact that conservative Christians call people to repent. Christ did it. He told us to do it. He told us to teach it. Without repentance from sin to God through faith in Christ, there is no eternal life.

  • Sun Oct 19, 2008 1:05 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 2

    believer, the Pharisees and self-righteous leaders of Jesus' day condemned Jesus and his disciples for associating with those whom they considered unrepentant and unredeemable sinners, just as you and your friends are doing now. Our liberality now should be a reflection of Jesus liberality then.

  • Sun Oct 19, 2008 12:13 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 0

    (inclusivity)

    Yes, Jesus did come to seek and to save the lost be he also called sinners to repentance; sinners who do not repent from their sins actually reject the gospel.

    I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance (Luke 5:32).

    Afterward Jesus findeth him in the temple, and said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee (John 5:14).

  • Sun Oct 19, 2008 10:31 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Christ was radical, not liberal. He preached the need for righteousness and the need to be born again through faith in Christ.

  • Sun Oct 19, 2008 10:27 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    To be clear, a liberal Gospel is one which Teaches acceptance/encouraging of sin (as opposed accepting repentant sinners) and/or does not preach the need for faith in Christ to have eternal life. This goes against what God said to do. God was clear that we are turn away from sin, and turn to God through faith in Christ.

  • Sun Oct 19, 2008 7:18 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    sj, please!!, you know exactly what he was referring to when Faith in God used the term liberal Gospel. Ministering to the needs of hurting and abandoned people is far different than condoning known sin in the lives of people and even in the church.

  • Sun Oct 19, 2008 6:27 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Faith in God, I don't know how you CANNOT believe in a liberal Gospel, a Gospel where Jesus eats with sinners and tax-collectors, the scum of the earth of their day, where he declares that harlots will enter the Kingdom of God before the chief priests and elders, where he talks to single women in public and eats in their houses, where he cures the loved ones of a Roman centurion or a Syro-Phoenician women, and touches a leper and lame, who in his parables are invited to the banquet feast prepared. The Gospel IS a gospel of radical hospitality and inclusivity.

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