Updated 04:40 pm.EST, Sat November 21, 2009

Society|Fri, Oct. 24 2008 11:24 AM EDT

California Marriage Debate Focuses on Youth Education

By Katherine T. Phan|Christian Post Reporter

Both sides of the California same-sex marriage debate are sparring over whether the defeat of Proposition 8 would force public schools to include gay marriage in their instruction.

Prop. 8, if passed, would amend the California Constitution to define marriage as between a man and a woman and reverse the California Supreme Court decision in May that legalized same-sex marriages.

The "Yes on 8" campaign argues that the failure to pass Prop. 8 would grant public schools a free pass to "indoctrinate" children on gay marriage and homosexuality.

The "No on 8" campaign, however, claims that the measure has nothing to do with schools, saying schools are not required to teach about marriage.

Two of the more recent TV ads released by the campaign in support of Prop. 8 have focused on the effect on youth education if the ballot initiative fails.

In one ad, a mother asks her daughter what she learned in school today. The girl hands her mother a book entitled, King and King, and says, "I learned that a prince can marry a prince and I can marry a princess."

The most recent ad, which begin airing this week, features a Massachusetts couple who went to court over the King and King book when it was read to their second-grade son. The couple warns Californians that gay marriage will also be taught in elementary schools unless Prop. 8 is approved.

In response, opponents to the marriage amendment fired back a new TV ad on Wednesday. California Superintendent of Public Instruction Jack O'Connell appears in the "No on 8" ad, telling viewers that "our schools aren't required to teach anything about marriage."

California State Board of Education president Ted Mitchell spoke out Tuesday against the "Yes on 8" ads, calling them "misleading." He insisted that there was "nothing" in the state law that required public instruction on marriage.

"[I]n fact, curriculum involving health issues is chosen by local school governing boards," stated O'Connell.

According to Chip White, spokesman for the "Yes on 8" campaign, however, it is statements such as O’Connell’s that are misleading.

Although public schools are not required by law to teach about marriage, schools that teach about sex education must also teach about marriage, White points out, citing California Department of Education's (CDE) own guidelines.

"O'Connell's cleverly worded denials try to trick voters into thinking schools do not teach about marriage," remarked White. "But for the 96% of public schools that teach sex education, state law requires them to teach about marriage."

While state law does not mandate sex education, local school districts that decide to provide this education must comply with a CDE requirement, which states: "Instruction shall encourage communication between students and their families and shall teach respect for marriage and committed relationships."

"Perhaps if O'Connell spent less time making false statements in TV ads, he'd have more time to read his own website," said White.

The "Yes on 8" campaign sent a letter to O'Connell and Mitchell on Wednesday, demanding that they retract their "misstatements." The letter, signed by attorney Andrew P. Pugno, identifies Education Code sections that demonstrate public schools do teach about marriage.

Recent incidents involving children and matters related to gay marriage in public schools have alarmed many of the measure's supporters. Continue »

Pages: 12
Sort by: Newest | Oldest | Agree | Disagree
All comments on this page are subject to our Terms of Use and do not necessarily reflect the views of The Christian Post or its staff.
1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5
  • Wed Nov 05, 2008 2:38 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    mike22685, it's a toss up between lack of communication and finances depending on who you listen to but those are definitely the top two reasons for marital problems and of course divorces.

  • Wed Nov 05, 2008 1:38 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    From a teacher's perspective, I think we need to be teaching a lot more social well being to children at a younger age. Telling someone marriage is sacred and divorce is sinful does nothing. I would guess (this isn't based on research) that most marriages fall apart because of lack of communication. We need to be teaching our young folks HOW to communicate effectively. Schools spend so much time on the 3Rs, yet when you think about the people who are most successful in the professional environment, it is those who are willing to learn more and have excellent communication skills. Legislatively, that $74 million wasted on this issue could have been used to fund such programs.

  • Wed Nov 05, 2008 1:34 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    mike22685, there are a number of Christian ministries and programs available to couples and local churches to help strengthen marriages and families and prevent divorce, not that more can't be done and in fact we have a program in our area called Operation UNITE which is instrumental in fighting substance abuse in our area which is destroying marriages and families, we just entered into a partnership with Focus on the Family to start a new initiative called "declare hope" to help build stronger families. I say all that to ask you what can we do legislatively to build stronger marriages/families and prevent divorce that would be more effective than ministries and programs like these.

  • Wed Nov 05, 2008 11:06 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Believer, I would also challenge you as a leader in the Christian community to step up the fight for marriage. If Christians truly hold marriage so dear, then why aren't they donating millions of dollars to stop divorce or strengthen marriage? Why aren't the campaigns just as rigorous as the ones for gay marriage?

  • Wed Nov 05, 2008 7:58 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    yes, I knew there was something I liked about you!:)

  • Tue Nov 04, 2008 10:59 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    While it might shock you, I too would be in favor of stronger domestic partnership laws in place of same-sex marriage. I do recognize the arguments on the gay community's side that it still creates a stigma; however, on a pragmatic level the stronger domestic partnership institution would serve many of the goals pursued and serve as a happy middleground, even if only for the short term.

    To be honest, I think that the best strategy that the Christian community could pursue in safeguarding "traditional marriage" would be to take it upon itself to create strong domestic partnership laws and then turn the tables on the gay community. After all, at the end of the day the fight is over rights and not the word marriage. So long as domestic partnerships are identical in scope and conferred rights and benefits to marriage then the arguments in favor of granting a right of marriage largely go out the window.

    Just my 2 cents but it is quite gratifying to reach some common ground on this issue.

  • Tue Nov 04, 2008 9:54 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    yes, I would be totally supportive of stronger domestic partnership laws.

  • Tue Nov 04, 2008 9:53 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    yes, needless to say no one can be forcibly saved and you're absolutely right that no matter how this turns out it will not stop me from ministering to the spiritual needs of homosexuals as God provides the opportunity. But my contention is this, if the rights and benefits of homosexual couples is the driving force behind same-sex marriages/unions, why not simply strengthen domestic partnership laws to ensure those rights and benefits are being met rather than enacting same-sex marriages/unions?

  • Tue Nov 04, 2008 4:41 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Ok. I just wanted to know where you stand. You're the only homosexual, or homosexual proponent, that I've talked to on here that would do such. All the others are very narrowminded and self-serving.

  • Tue Nov 04, 2008 3:04 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    If at the time that they seek the right to marry incest is no longer illegal I will support them as well in their pursuit for equal rights.

    The thing is that part of practicing law is swearing an oath to uphold and serve the constitution. A large part of that is believing what is contained therein. The providing by the government of equal rights is very important to me regardless of gender, color, creed or sexual preference of those involved.

    As for my ties to my friends and family, it is the fact that they are such a diverse group that inspires me to push for equal rights across the board. People are people and so long as they obey the law and pay their taxes and the like they are entitled to their fundamental rights. I hope that some day all of you can understand what it means to accept someone different from you and look past the differences to see that it's just another human being trying to live his or her life. The gays are "intruding" on your lives by wanting to live theirs without your heckling or attempts to divest their hard fought rights? There are certainly troublemakers on both sides of the issue; however, by and large, they just want to have a happy normal life, coming home to their spouse after a long day at work and reveling in marital bliss. Hard to begrudge them that if you ask me.

  • Tue Nov 04, 2008 2:31 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Or is your moral view of right and wrong dependent upon whether your friends and family are involved in it?

  • Tue Nov 04, 2008 2:23 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Jew,
    So I take it, that when incest people are seeking their rights, that you'll be arguing just as hard for their rights. Correct?

  • Tue Nov 04, 2008 2:21 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Believer, but it's not the government's job to ensure eternal salvation. That is a social movement spearheaded by the Church or whatever other religious institution cares to participate. My main gripe is that this is a mixing of two spheres that are best kept separate and which have been constructed in such a way to remain separate. No one is saying that your admirable goals of saving everyone should be abandoned, but rather it's the manner in which you pursue them. If gays can make a legitimate claim under the law to these rights then they should be entitled to them. It is up to people such as you to respectfully engage them and attempt to lead them voluntarily to salvation, as you understand it. No one should be forced into observance of a religion because such observance is hollow. As you have suggested, gay relationships are "damning" inside or outside of wedlock, because as per your argument a gay marriage isn't recognized by G-d anyway, so what actual loss is there by allowing them to marry? They will continue to be living in "sin" just as they were prior to their "marriage."

  • Tue Nov 04, 2008 2:15 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    I find your logic intriguing. First of all, I'm straight and in a long term monogamous relationship so I have no personal stake in this beyond my concern for the future of my many homosexual friends and family.

    So all these topics are intertwined, eh? So wasn't letting heterosexuals part of the slippery slope? By letting them enjoy it we have to allow everyone? So perhaps, as I've mockingly suggested elsewhere, we should do away with legally recognized marriage all together. That way those pesky gays and incest-ers can't get in on the action!

    Frankly, if down the road a guy wants to marry his sister I don't really care. It doesn't make my marriage less meaningful to me. It doesn't cheapen my relationship with my wife.

    Slippery slope arguments are the most blatant form of intellectual laziness available. Instead of generating cogent arguments that are on point you're reaching out to find something alarming and asking "what if". If you can't come up with good arguments that are actually on point then either you don't have the intellectual capacity to make them or are instead lacking the mental discipline to formulate them. Either way, your slippery slope arguments are tremendously weak.

  • Tue Nov 04, 2008 2:09 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    yes, I appreciate your cordial response and yes I do know homosexuals personally who I have a high regard and respect for and I've had the opportunity of working side by side with them and we simply learned to agree to disagree on several issues. And having had some personal struggles with my sexuality as a teen and young adult I feel I can be somewhat empathetic with their struggle and yes I think I can understand the joy that homosexual couples will have if they're allowed the right to marry. And yet I will still struggle with the fact that in the sight of God they are not married and are living in sin and if they don't turn from that sin and turn to God before they die, when they do die they will be eternally separated from God for all eternity and no amount of joy or sinful lifestyle on this earth is worth that. And I firmly believe that by allowing same-sex marriage/union it will cause same-sex couples to move more away form God and His truth than towards it plus as I said earlier if this happens there will be I believe dire spiritual implications on us as a nation.

  • Tue Nov 04, 2008 2:07 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    But the thing I want to know, Jew. Is that when incest people start fighting for their rights, are you going to support them? Or are you going to deny them?

  • Tue Nov 04, 2008 2:01 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Because the only argument that anti-incest people use is the infamous "babies with defects". But yet, no one argues against the idea of those with dwarfism marrying and having children when the chances of them having a baby with the same defect is large.

  • Tue Nov 04, 2008 1:58 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    How can you deal with it separately? It's the same issue. And it's only a slippery slope argument for those narrowminded people that really don't want rights for everyone....just themselves.
    I see arguing for homosexual marriages as a slippery slope argument.

  • Tue Nov 04, 2008 1:53 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Prophet, take a cue from WBMoore and Believer and try to come up with some substantive points. Invoking incest as a corollary to homosexuality is an incredibly weak argument, as is the whole other parade of horribles involved in the usual slippery slope argument. When incestuous couples start making overtures for legal recognition we can deal with that issue separately. In any case, you have the fact that incest is still illegal in every state (so far as I know) and there is a governmental interest in avoiding the likely birth defects arising from any children born to the couple, such risk being detailed by medical studies. As an anticipation to your obvious counterargument, there are not equivalent studies contributing emotional and social risks to children of same-sex couples. Even if there were it would be more easily attributed to treatment the child is subjected to outside the home than within it.

  • Tue Nov 04, 2008 1:46 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    I did get a chance to look over it. I'll begin by stating that I respect you for your assertion of lack of hate towards the individuals in question and your seeking of forgiveness when causing offense. I also appreciate that you are concerned with the "spiritual implications" flowing from allowing people to engage in what you consider to be sinful lifestyles. I don't begrudge you your right to feel such desires. For me, the sticking point is the how in that equation. A person turning from sin merely because there are no other options doesn't mean much in terms of serving any divine plan. Once you've removed viable alternatives then there is no free will and hence no sanctified behavior. Moreover, it would be civilized to admit that there are others who do not share your beliefs and ideas about what constitutes spiritual wellbeing. I would hope that you and others on this board could concede that point, especially in contemporary America. As such, it just seems inappropriate to force a rigid framework built upon your moral code upon all of America. If you could cease being focused on the issue of these individuals' sexual preference you'd find that they actually have a lot in common with the Christian community. A significant segment of the gay community is involved in professions revolving around helping people and their communities. Many of my gay peers are involved in social work, non-profit organizations geared towards bringing live theater to schools, teaching and medicine. They are warm and loving individuals with a great capacity for concern and empathy. Sexuality aside there is much that each group could learn from the other provided that ideological hurdles could be overcome.

    I think the main thing that everyone is overlooking is that simply because you take away their rights the gay community will not disappear. I know Prophet doesn't want them gone but really what do y'all expect? They will not just give up on their quest for equal rights. The fight will continue indefinitely, providing more fuel to stoke the gay agenda conspiracy theories and generating more backlash against the Christians and attempts to lock down alleged hate speech and so on. In essence, you may end up winning the battle but losing the war.

    If you take a moment and put yourself in their shoes to examine the situation you might find that you feel differently on the gay marriage issue. If it's even possible, stop for a second, put aside your religious dogma and ask yourself what marriage would mean to you as a gay person. Imagine the joy and jubilation you experienced on the day of your marriage, the knowledge that you had found "the one" and were now merged into a single married home. Then imagine that you would never be afforded that opportunity merely because your beloved was the wrong gender and people disapproved of such.

  • Tue Nov 04, 2008 1:40 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    A majority of adult incest relationships are hetero by nature and therefore protected by the constitution's view of marriage. And yet, their rights are denied. Why are you whining?

  • Tue Nov 04, 2008 1:29 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Actually I support democracy when it is within the confines of our constitutions and governmental framework. So I don't support democracy when it's aimed at a policy that generates no positive benefits and rescinds the rights of law-abiding, tax-paying citizens.

    This whole issue is absurd. I defy anyone here to put forth a legitimate argument based upon the law and other legitimate governmental interests as to why gays should not be married. There aren't any. The only basis y'all have is that your religion is against it and that the idea of gays marrying is repugnant to you.

    Gays got the right to marry because they should have already had it. The sheer amount of money wasted on this campaign disgusts me. Instead of putting that money towards education or helping the needy it went towards rescinding individual rights. Way to go Christians. Way to work towards bettering society.

  • Tue Nov 04, 2008 1:24 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    yes, I left you a response at 9:34 last night on the Pastor's Prop 8 article and I wondered if you had a chance to read it, thanks believer.

  • Tue Nov 04, 2008 1:23 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    I get the feeling that Jew is not a big supporter of democracy unless it is for his benefit.

  • Tue Nov 04, 2008 1:20 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    yes, and isn't that what they did by allowing the people to vote to determine if they as a state would accept or reject same-sex marriage?

  • Tue Nov 04, 2008 1:01 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    So you draw the line with them wanting to be in long term, committed, monogamous relationships? Isn't that one of the big Christian criticisms of homosexuals? Their "promiscuity?"

    So just to be clear you don't want them to have inheritance priority upon a partner's death? You don't want them to have automatic visitation and consent rights upon a medical emergency? You don't want them to be entitled to favorable tax treatment? You don't want them to be entitle to automatic coverage under one partner's medical insurance? You don't want them to be entitled to any of the social and financial benefits of marriage simply because of their sexual preference? Is that about right? And spare me the malarky about it being an affirmation of your religion's beliefs because practicing your religion does not necessitate depriving others of fundamental rights.

    How horrible of them to "escalate" the situation by pursuing rights to which they should and constitutionally are entitled to. Such will be the case even if you manage to pass this horrid legislation because the fundamental right to marriage is courtesy of the US Constitution and that will trump a state constitution every time. Oh and to really obliterate any right of gay individuals to marry you'd have to amend the US Constitution which in turn would require an ultimate vote of support for such a change from 3/4 of all the states. The northeast alone would block such a change.

  • Tue Nov 04, 2008 12:43 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    That's where you're wrong. Homosexuals have been around a long time. I grew up knowing about homosexuals. Until the past 8-10 years, heteros and homosexuals have maintained a relationship of acceptance. "You do your thing, I'll do mine". But what escalated it was the homosexuals pushing their agenda of marriage. That's when things got ugly. I have no problem with homosexuals existing, working a job, getting an education. But I draw the line at marriage. And just because I vote to deny homosexuals the right to marry, doesn't mean I want them gone.

  • Tue Nov 04, 2008 12:26 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    See you'd think that changing the constitution would end the issue but it wont. All that this accomplishes is forcing the gay community, and those straight supporters who feel strongly about things like the constitution and fundamental rights, to escalate the matter to the federal judiciary under a claim of violation of the 14th amendment.

    I still don't understand this. Your community will not make peace with the gays until they're gone and removed from society, so in essence there can be no peace while they still remain who they are. In similar fashion, even if they retain the right to marry you will still scorn them and their chosen partners and lifestyle. So isn't it more expedient to let them get some kind of net gain from this while you all retain your right to disdain them? Is it really a lofty goal to rain on someone's parade and work toward repealing hard fought rights?

    I liken your crusade for Prop 8 to one to amend the US Constitution to remove the 13th amendment. Yes it's theoretically possible but it's just not an appropriate thing to do. Just because you can gather and coordinate a bunch of KKK members to reinstitute slavery doesn't make it right or constitutional.

  • Tue Nov 04, 2008 12:11 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Prophet, I'm very impressed that you can cut and paste from Wikipedia. That being said, you're still wrong if you're claiming that the judiciary is not within its powers to overturn laws. A large part of interpreting law is determining the validity of said law. If a law is unconstitutional it will be overturned.

    Believer, that whole distinction is a hazy one. Many times, what you refer to as "making law" is the court, after striking down an unconstitutional law, stating what it interprets the law to be in the absence of the recently struck down legislation. A court, in the absence of a live controversy is not just calling the press and saying, "this is now the law." In any case, the legislature can always proffer new legislation in the hopes that the court finds it acceptable under the highest authority in the land, namely the constitution and its attendant case law.

  • Tue Nov 04, 2008 12:07 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Proposition 8 would change California's constitution. As you've pointed out..."Courts are tasked with enforcing both the law and more importantly the constitution." So, as I've said, if the judicial system overturns a constitutional amendment, they are overstepping their boundaries.

  • Tue Nov 04, 2008 12:02 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    In law, the judiciary or judicial system is the system of courts which administer justice in the name of the sovereign or state, a mechanism for the resolution of disputes. It consists of the Supreme Court and other lower courts.

    The term is also used to refer collectively to the judges, magistrates and other adjudicators who form the core of a judiciary (sometimes referred to as a "bench"), as well as the support personnel who keep the system running smoothly. Under the doctrine of the separation of powers, 'the judiciary is the branch of government primarily responsible for interpreting the law'. It construes the laws enacted by the legislature.


    Wikipedia

  • Tue Nov 04, 2008 12:00 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    yes, overturning laws is one thing making laws is another!

  • Tue Nov 04, 2008 11:43 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Uh Prophet, are you actually serious? I mean, really, are you serious? If so that really gets to the root of the whole outrage issue.

    Overturning laws IS THEIR JOB! Courts are tasked with enforcing both the law and more importantly the constitution. They act as a very important check in our system of checks and balances. Courts don't exist to enforce the laws per se. Actually it is the executive branch that is tasked with enforcing the law as it is written in the administrative sense. Courts are tasked with presiding over controversies as well as ensuring that new legislation passes constitutional muster.

    In fact courts exist in large part to ensure that ridiculous and clearly unconstitutional legislation such as this is never allowed to become law. Federal judges are given life tenure to ensure that they are not easily swayed by partisan influence or concern about backlash from those dissatisfied with their rulings. The judiciary exists to ensure that a tyrannical majority cannot contravene the principles of this fine nation to suit their ideological agenda when such changes are not in alignment with the constitutions or fundamental rights.

    So as another plea to you Prophet, do some homework before you make a completely inaccurate and misleading proclamation. It only makes you look silly and uninformed.

  • Tue Nov 04, 2008 11:33 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    And don't be suprised when it gets passed. The problem that we have is that the judicial branch constantly oversteps it's boundaries, and the public does nothing about it. The judicial branch does not make laws, or overturn laws, it was designed to enforce laws. And when a court overturns a law, it oversteps it's legal responsibilities.

  • Tue Nov 04, 2008 10:47 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Prophet, how I enjoy our exchanges. The point I'm making is that you do have the right to disapprove and speak out and even vote your ideals; however, that doesn't mean that your vote will matter since you're crafting legislation based upon impermissible rationales when it comes to constitutional law. As such, vote to remove the constitutional rights of gays but don't be surprised when your initiative gets overturned.

  • Mon Nov 03, 2008 8:54 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Prophet, your post made no sense, and I was asking a serious question.

  • Mon Nov 03, 2008 5:58 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Jew,
    Well, it's a good thing this is still a democracy, and not a dictatorship. We have the right to express our opinion, however disapproving it may be. And we will allow the majority to make the decision.
    The Christian's battle is on their knees and in the polls.

  • Mon Nov 03, 2008 5:55 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    In the infamous word of Homer...."doh!"

    Can I prove it. Actually, my suspicions are on the short people. Carnies...you know....wanderers...
    Well, they give me the heebeejeebee's, and I think they are quite capable of doing that.

  • Mon Nov 03, 2008 5:53 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    I've never said that they were blameless. I have consistently maintained that their goals are less nefarious and unreasonable than those of the Christian community. They are fighting to obtain and keep rights whereas you are fighting to rescind and remove rights. That's ultimately the crux of the issue. No one's behavior is excused here. If you had read my posts I was calling for both sides to quit the shennanigans and work toward a productive solution.

    The base thing for me is that a citizen is a citizen and a right is a right. These California citizens have been given a right which is a fundamental one. They are fighting to retain it and you're fighting to eviscerate it.

    The law can and should deal with those engaging in destruction of property and mischief; however, that doesn't change the overarching legal issue. At the end of the day, since this is being done via the law and the government it will have to be done according to those rules. Those rules clearly state (if you read up on your supreme court case law and some con law books) that the government has to have a substantial and legitimate governmental interest when the revocation of individual rights of a quasi-suspect class is at stake. Your justifications, while compelling within your own community are irrelevant and meaningless when it comes to playing in the domain of law and government.

  • Mon Nov 03, 2008 5:41 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Can you prove it is gays doing it? I know plenty of Obama signs that have been stolen, and today it was reported that people have been getting mail from Republican organizations spreading lies like Republicans vote Tuesday, Democrats Wednesday, etc. It is sickening, but you cannot define an entire community by the actions of a few.

  • Mon Nov 03, 2008 5:26 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Jew,
    But I thought gays were above such behavior (stealing signs, putting derogatory signs in front of people's houses, threatening them). As I said in my last post, victims they are not....

  • Mon Nov 03, 2008 5:24 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Jew,
    We do talk about the virtues of heterosexual marriages. The homosexuals tear it to shreds. They don't care. We talk about how God made marriage for a man and a woman, and the homosexuals hop right up and start arguing. You should look closely, and see the the homosexuals aren't the martyrs they claim to be....

  • Mon Nov 03, 2008 5:23 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    My goodness! What horrible behavior! You're attempting to divest them of their right to marry, a fundamental right that all straight Americans enjoy and they're egging churches and stealing signs? The death threats are disconcerting but then again, do we need to invoke the actual murders carried out against doctors performing abortions to show that any group of aggrieved people can be capable of making if not carrying out such threats? Should we comment on how sad abortion protesters are?

    Frankly, if I were gay, or y'all were trying to pass a law abolishing the right of Jews to get married, I'd probably do the same if not worse. When you treat people as if they were less than people you end up with uncivilized responses.

  • Mon Nov 03, 2008 5:19 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Where am I saying that anyone should be deprived of a freedom of speech? I have said that I think that there are more productive ways to deliver a message than others but nowhere have I suggested that people should not be entitled to voice their opinions.

    That being said, just because you have a right doesn't mean that you should be testing its limits. Is it really necessary to continually call out gays as being immoral, sinful or destructive of society. Wouldn't it be just as effective to extol the virtues of traditional marriage without actively stooping to derogatory commentary on the gay population?

    My suggestion comes in terms of strategy rather than law. Until you tear up the constitution and burn all the little pieces, your goals of divesting homosexuals of their fundamental rights will not succeed. Keeping that in mind, by avoiding the directly negative commentary would scale back the battling between both sides of the controversy and perhaps even pave the way for productive discussions on how to make both sides happy with a compromise. We're not playing a zero sum game here. That's the beauty of the law. If Christians and gays can stop their lunacy (and I'll lay blame both ways) and actually sit down and lay out what's most important to them then perhaps this whole situation can be productively resolved. Otherwise we can keep up the fighting which makes both sides look ridiculous in the others' eyes.

  • Mon Nov 03, 2008 5:11 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Here's some "positive" acts on behalf of the homosexual agenda. did you hear about all the ruckus going on in California over Amendment 8?
    People who are supporting it are being given death threats and even physically assaulted by pro-gay people. Churches (the biggest opponent to gay marriages) have been egged. People who have signs showing their support of Amendment 8 in their lawn either find them stolen, or people park cars in front of their houses with signs that say "Bigots live here" on them.
    And these are the people who think they're responsible enough to want to get married? And they accuse us Christians of persecuting them? It's a sad show on their part.

  • Mon Nov 03, 2008 5:09 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    The free speech isn't my sticking point. As I've said before you can say whatever you want, regardless of how much I disagree. My point IS that when we're talking about rights, fundamental rights, they have to be determined in accordance with state and federal law, both of which are governed by their respective constitutions. These constitutions and the accompanying case law interpreting them provide rights that you are trying to rescind simply because they conflict with your religion and your worldview. That's what I have an issue with and that's what makes you all horrible Americans and even worse human beings. Any religion that leads to such a flagrant disregard for the rights of honest, law abiding individuals is worthless and devoid of any place in civilized society.

  • Mon Nov 03, 2008 5:07 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Oh yeah. I see a difference. You want the right of free speech to be given to homosexuals, and removed from Christians. Is that right?

  • Mon Nov 03, 2008 5:05 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Prophet, actually there is a significant difference between a pride parade and a public protest. A pride parade is calculated to allow members of a community to gather and celebrate their shared values and pride in their own identity. On the other hand, gatherings of Christians for the purpose of protesting the "gay agenda" is not so much a positive expression of your own views and pride therein, but rather a negative commentary upon the choices of others who really don't give a damn about you or your beliefs. See the difference? Theirs is in no way a reaction to you or your ideals, whereas yours is a direct response to their entire existence as homosexuals.

  • Mon Nov 03, 2008 5:03 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    You see, that's the wonderful thing about free speech. It's not given solely to one group of people. It's given to everyone. You think it's appalling that people march in protest against homosexuality. Okay. I think it's appalling that homosexuals march and flaunt their lifestyle. So, we're both appalled, and life goes on.

  • Mon Nov 03, 2008 5:01 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    I still think that you all are missing the bigger picture. The fact that an artist filled a jar with urine and placed a cross inside is in no way comparable to an organized legislative initiative to repeal recently granted rights. On one hand you have people merely being offended. On the other hand you have people losing vested rights because a segment of society finds their relationships icky/sinful and has taken it upon itself to decide what is appropriate for all Americans, gay and straight alike.

    And, believer I think you're talking about Ake Green, the Sweedish priest who was jailed. Mind you, as always, there are additional facts that are rarely repeated with the story. Namely, Green invited the media to attend his sermon where he made his anti-gay remarks and when they failed to do so he delivered written copies of his remarks to a local newspaper. No doubt he was looking for controversy rather than educating his congregation.

Please help us to monitor our message boards by flagging comments that are unlawful, harmful, threatening, abusive, harassing, defamatory, vulgar, obscene, libelous, hateful, or racially, ethnically or otherwise objectionable.
Contact Us if you have any questions, comments, or concerns.
Comment on this story
ID Password

Don't have a Christian Post ID? Signing up is easy. Click Here

  • icon1
  • icon2
  • icon3
  • icon4
  • icon5
The Christian Post reserves the right to terminate the account of any User who violates our Terms of Use.
Advertisement
Advertisement
CP Shopping
  • Jewelry
  • Health
  • Gifts
  • Music
  • Coins

Bracelets | Chains | Crosses | Earrings | Gemstone |

Featured contents & Giveaways
Joolwe :
Cross-pendant necklace
Zondervan

Struggling to succeed in the Nashville music scene, talented singer/songwriter Parker James finds the competition fierce even deadly. A young woman's murder, industry corruption, a

Featured Advertiser Links