Updated 12:47 pm.EST, Sun November 22, 2009

Society|Tue, Oct. 28 2008 07:50 AM EDT

Conservatives Intensify Attacks on Obama

By Eric Gorski|and Rachel Zoll

• A series of domestic and international disasters based on Obama's "reluctance to send troops overseas." That includes terrorist attacks on U.S. soil that kill hundreds, Russia occupying the Baltic states and Eastern European countries including Poland and the Czech Republic, and al-Qaida overwhelming Iraq.

• Nationalized health care with long lines for surgery and no access to hospitals for people over 80.

The goal was to "articulate the big picture," said Carrie Gordon Earll, senior director of public policy for Focus on the Family Action. "If it is a doomsday picture, then it's a realistic picture," she said.

Obama favors abortion rights and supports civil unions for same-sex couples, but says states should make their own decisions about marriage. He said he would intensify diplomatic pressure on Iran over its nuclear ambitions and add troops in Afghanistan.

On taxes, Obama has proposed an increase on the 5 percent of taxpayers who make more than $250,000 a year and advocates cuts for those who make less. His health care plan calls for the government to subsidize coverage for millions of Americans who otherwise couldn't afford it.

One of the clear targets of this latest conservative Christian push against the Democrat is younger evangelicals who might be considering him. The letter posits that young evangelicals provide the margin that let Obama defeat John McCain. But Margaret Feinberg, a Denver-area evangelical author, predicted failure.

"Young evangelicals are tired — like most people at this point in the election — and rhetoric which is fear-based, strong-arms the listener, and states opinion as fact will only polarize rather than further the informed, balanced discussion that younger voters are hungry for," she said.

In an interview, Strang said there are fewer state ballot measures to motivate conservative voters this election year and that the financial meltdown is distracting some voters from the abortion issue. But he said a last-minute push by conservative Christians in 2004 was key to Bush's re-election and predicted they could play the same role in 2008.

Kim Conger, a political scientist at Iowa State University, said a late push for evangelical voters did help Bush in 2004, "but it is a very different thing than getting people excited about John McCain," even with Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin as his vice presidential pick.

Phil Burress, head of the Ohio-based Citizens for Community Values, said the dynamics were quite different in 2004, when conservative Christians spent some energy calling Democrat John Kerry a flip-flopper but were mostly motivated by enthusiasm for George W. Bush.

Now, there is less excitement about McCain than fear of an Obama presidency, Burress said.

"This reminds me of when I was a school kid, when I had to go out in the hall and bury my head in my hands because of the atom bomb," he said.

Copyright 2008 Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed.
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  • Tom »
    Tue Nov 04, 2008 7:07 am Agree: 2   Disagree: 1

    Brothers and sister in Christ now is the time to vote. It is what our Lord would have us do. We as believers in this Christ our called to proclaim His word, sometimes we need to proclaim His word by voting in those who stand for His word. McCain may not be perfect, who is, but he will further the cause of stopping the murder of innocent unborn babies, he protect the family from being expand to unBibilical principles. He will protect this country from those who would wish to destroy it. As a Christian you need to vote for someone who would uphold His principles. obama does not--He is for the killing of unborn babies that should be the first clue. Gods Blessing In Christ Tom

  • Mon Nov 03, 2008 11:52 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 2

    Obama to raise electricity rates and bankrupt the coal industry:

    http://www.onenewsnow.com/Blog/Default.aspx?id=308558

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o13BtLcBt0w

  • Mon Nov 03, 2008 8:21 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

    Seedplanter- thanks for your light for however long it last once the silencers of truth hit this site. Dont grow weary in doing good.

  • Sat Nov 01, 2008 11:47 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 0

    Has anyone noticed that oil prices have dropped A LOT in the month before the election? I'm not a betting man, but anyone betting that they will shoot back up on Wednesday, or shortly thereafter?

  • Sat Nov 01, 2008 5:42 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 0

    Whatever happens in this election, we can still trust that God is in control. If American chooses to turn away from God, it cannot escape the consequences.

    However, He will take care of His children. I've never seen the righteous forsaken or their seed begging for bread.

  • Sat Nov 01, 2008 2:14 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 0

    Pro-choice say that a baby is not given "personship" until birth. So that means complete birth? As long as the baby still has one foot in the womb, it is not a person? It is not alive?
    That is the rhetoric of the Obama camp.
    Life begins at conception. Those who support abortions support infantcide. Those who perform abortions are mass murderers.

  • Sat Nov 01, 2008 12:52 am Agree: 3   Disagree: 1

    Supporters of Senator McCain and the Senator himself have peddled in distortions and lies. Senator Obama doesn't support same sex marriage and he said so with Rick Warren. He supports civil unions.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wsfhbxmagI0

    Republican Bill Sponsor Said “None Of Those Who Voted Against SB-1082 Favored Infanticide.” Rick Winkel, a Republican former state senator who sponsored the “Born Alive” bill, wrote in a Letter to the Editor, “None of those who voted against SB-1082 favored infanticide.” [Chicago Tribune, Winkel LTE, 9/5/08
    http://fightthesmears.com/articles/15/wildaccusations

    Senator McCain had a long list of campaign aids who had to resign because it was found out that they supported some of the worst dictators on the planet. Just name a couple Doug Goodyear supported the military junta in Burma. They are responsible for some of the worst human attrocities there is, including trying to eradicate Christianity in their country. Charlie Black has made a name for himself working for foreign dictators, people who have destroyed their countries and killed their people in their quest for power. Black's client list is a veritable who's who of evil men" Somali dictator Mohamed Siad Barre, Angolan rebel leader Jonas Savimbi of UNITA, Nigerian Dictator Ibrahim Babangida to name a few. This is just the tip of the iceberg with McCain. There are many more, but I hate this type of politics.

  • Thu Oct 30, 2008 7:40 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Never trust someone who says "Trust me."

  • Thu Oct 30, 2008 6:30 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Ill say afgfanistan had to do with terrorism and 9-11, but the Iraq war did not. We were mislead by our president into the Iraq war.

    And i find it interesting how gas is starting to drop so fast right around the time the American Errorist is about to get out of office. A coincidence, maybe it has to do with the market being in sad shape but i dunno, just kinda interesting.

  • Thu Oct 30, 2008 9:20 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    Oh I forgot to put: Obama is for drivers lic. for illegals. Drivers Lic. for Illegals. Go Figure.

  • Wed Oct 29, 2008 9:34 pm Agree: 3   Disagree: 0

    murder is the sin of choice for some people. homosexual sex is the sin of choice for some people. lying is the sin of choice for some people. heterosexual sex outside of marriage is the sin of choice for some people. being drunk is the sin of choice for some people. they are all sins. God's clear that he frowns on all of them.

  • Wed Oct 29, 2008 8:37 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Mike,laugh all you want.. incase you didnt know, the bible address homosexuality and it among other things is an issue.Read the book.

  • Tom »
    Wed Oct 29, 2008 6:29 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Argle---dont understand do ya. The war started on 911 and is currently being fought in Irag and Afgan. It has been succesfull in that we have not been attack since 911 in our own country. You can make the case between murder and killing there is a differance. However in order to be peacemakers as Jesus says in Matthew, we need to at times fight to achieve it. So according to scripture Christians will be known by their fruit. Yes Dis. it may be talking about prophets in Matthew but is applicable to Christian as well in light of John 15 as well as other Scripture. So again if you vote for someone who is prodeath, doesnt matter which party. It just so happens that the prodeath party is the democratic party. Anyway if you vote for that person or party then you are just as guilty and should take a hard look at your belief in Christ and your salvation. Sorry for the off again on again post I gets busy.
    Gods Blessing In Christ Tom

  • Wed Oct 29, 2008 2:33 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    I dont think either candidate is the answer to america's problems, If only this country's election was controlled by more than 2 candidates...

    Maybe I will write in Honest Abe, even though he's been dead for over a century...

  • Wed Oct 29, 2008 12:52 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Disciple08,
    ”And we know, based on Paul's frustrations, that Christians can do bad things.“

    Again, I agree. But a person who is saved WILL be changed for the better by God. If he is not then he must question his salvation. As well, we must consider that as one grows in their walk with God, they will continue to grow more Christ-like. If not, then they are resisting the work of the Holy Spirit, which is rebellion. God tends to dislike rebellion. IF we choose to actively, continuously, rebel against God, we must question whether we love God at all.

    “So, yes, deeds to flow from our hearts. But our hearts have not been completely sanctified, therefore we do bad things.”

    No one has claimed Christians are perfect. But if we do not grow to become more and more Christ-like, then the question is whether we are a Christian at all.

    ”Are faith is not based on that, but we are encouraged to "work out our salvation" (Phil. 2). It is by this standard that we can judge a persons actions but not their actual faith in God (if they proclaim it).”

    And this is the point of my post. We must work out our salvation. We must show good deeds, or evidence of what Paul the fruit of the Spirit.

    I submit that if we do not have that evidence, then we are fooling ourselves. I further submit that you CAN judge a book by its cover, by the fruit of their life. If one continually moves in ways that are contrary to God, then one must question whether one is a Christian. If someone claims to be a Christian and yet walks a lifestyle of sin, then we are called to rebuke them. If they repent, then we must forgive, however, if they still continue to walk a lifestyle of sin, then we are called to have nothing to do with them.
    Ephesians 5:11
    Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them.

    2 Timothy 3:2-5
    2People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, 3without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good, 4treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God— 5having a form of godliness but denying its power. Have nothing to do with them.

    Titus 3:10
    Warn a divisive person once, and then warn him a second time. After that, have nothing to do with him.

    1 Corinthians 5:11
    But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat.

  • Wed Oct 29, 2008 12:52 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Disciiple08
    “As to the issue of Paul saying (Acts 26:20) that he preached that people are to "prove their repentance by deeds." I do not think it has the implication that you are applying to it. I do not think Paul is saying that you can tell a Christian by their deeds. The word in Greek used for "prove" in the translation you used is “aksios”, meaning something which "corresponds" or is "befitting" of something. It does not carry the meaning of proving by a set of criteria as to whether that person is a Christian or not, but rather that they should do what is expected of their faith.”

    I think you misunderstood my reference to what Paul said in Acts 26:20.
    I guess I should have used the NASB version which reads more accurately:
    but kept declaring both to those of Damascus first, and also at Jerusalem and then throughout all the region of Judea, and even to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, performing deeds appropriate to repentance.

    What I was trying to say was that good fruit are good deeds which are in keeping with repentance fro sin towards God. That is to say, if we have repented, we will do good deeds. As I said, James says essentially the same thing – that deeds must accompany faith or it is not real faith.

    This is not to say that someone who trusts in Christ will be perfect and never sin. But I AM saying that trust in Christ will change one for the better. We WILL begin a process of becoming more holy.

    “I also think it sets a false precedent by saying that you can know someone based on their deeds. Paul admits in Romans 7 that he desires to do the good but cannot because of his "body of death". Are we to suppose that because Paul cannot do the "good" that he is not a Christian? I think not. 

We are simultaneously justified and sinful; we have not made it to complete sanctification.”

    So far, I agree with you. Although I would say we have been positionally sanctified but not yet fully personally sanctified. Although I would say that while we can not judge based upon one actions, we can judge whether someone is walking from God by a pattern of actions (fruit).

    “So, to say that we can know someone by their fruits is a bit misleading. First of all, it is very difficult to judge a person based on their deeds because even non-Christians can do good things like not murder another person, lie, and love other people.”

    Yes, but they can not do them from the motive of loving the one true God. Someone who maintains they are saved but has no evidence of their salvation in terms of a changed life must be admonished to be sure he has not simply made a profession of faith. For salvation is so much more than that.

  • Wed Oct 29, 2008 12:44 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    Now did i get thumbs down on my posts for saying not to judge one another's faith or because I think peace is better than war?

  • Wed Oct 29, 2008 12:38 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    The command not to murder, War involves much murder, another command was love your enemies, pray for those who persecute you.

  • Wed Oct 29, 2008 12:35 am Agree: 3   Disagree: 0

    as for the war, Iraq was not the cause of september 11.

  • Wed Oct 29, 2008 12:23 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

    Almost the entire message from the campaign of Senator McCain is don't vote for Barack because he is: a celebrity, (not S. McCain but supporters) anti-Christ, Socialist, Marxist, Liberal et cetera. Where is all the ideas and hopes for the country? Where is the call to unity? Even if he wins, he went way over board and he won't get help from me. If you can't win without cheating and demonizing your opponent, than don't run for office. Once again, when Christ separates the wheat from the chaff and the goats from the sheep; you won't see a line with killers on one side and non killers on the other. You will more clearly see a line with lovers on one side and haters on the other. Anybody can make a bad mistake, even killing once in a lifetime. But a lifetime of continuous hate has dire consequences at the end of life.

  • Tue Oct 28, 2008 11:20 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    disciple08,
    " Jesus is not applying this as a qualification for people within earshot of his voice. Rather he is applying this to people (false prophets) outside of the group. If this exhortation was meant to be self-referential to those listening to him, he would have exhorted that THEY should be aware of being a false prophet. Notice what it says "false prophets who come to YOU". Clearly the people listening to him are not to apply this criterion to themselves but to others who come proclaiming something contrary to the message of Jesus."

    I agree and disagree. I think the context is that Jesus was exhorting His believers to enter by the narrow gate (Mt 7:13-14). Then He expanded his exhortation to warn of people who did things that appear to be of God, but in fact are not. But the context is still telling people to enter through the narrow gate. This is seen when we look at Mt 7:24-27, where He tells people to put into practice what He had said. So yes, He DID warn about people who were not there, but He did it in context of warning people to live lives that reflect doing what He says. We can see this more clearly in Luke 6:43-49
    43 No good tree bears bad fruit, nor does a bad tree bear good fruit. 44 Each tree is recognized by its own fruit. People do not pick figs from thornbushes, or grapes from briers. 45 The good man brings good things out of the good stored up in his heart, and the evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in his heart. For out of the overflow of his heart his mouth speaks.
    46 Why do you call me, 'Lord, Lord,' and do not do what I say? 47 I will show you what he is like who comes to me and hears my words and puts them into practice. 48 He is like a man building a house, who dug down deep and laid the foundation on rock. When a flood came, the torrent struck that house but could not shake it, because it was well built. 49 But the one who hears my words and does not put them into practice is like a man who built a house on the ground without a foundation. The moment the torrent struck that house, it collapsed and its destruction was complete.

  • Tue Oct 28, 2008 11:20 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    disciple08,

    "I do not think that the context in that situation applies directly as a criterion for determining whether one is following God's will."

    I think the context tells us that it is motivation matters as much as the actual actions. As for whether we can judge our own salvation (or that of any one), I agree with you that it is impossible to be 100% sure of someone's (including our own) based solely and based strictly on someone's actions. We are saved strictly through faith in Christ.

    However, if we make a habit of continually sinning with no repentance, I think it safe to say we must question our salvation. Salvation is not based on making a statement, but on putting a belief into action through faith. This is known as trust. We must trust God through faith in Christ and this must be exemplified in our lives. If it is not, then we must recognize what scripture says in this regard. James is very clear our faith MUST be accompanied with actions.

    James 2:14-20
    14 What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? 15 Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead. 18 But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds." Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do. 19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that - and shudder. 20 You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless?

    John said that no one who is born of God will continue to live a lifestyle of sin.
    1 John 3:7-10
    7 Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. He who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. 8 He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil's work. 9 No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God. 10 This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother.

  • Tue Oct 28, 2008 9:49 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

    wbmoore,

    Sorry for so many posts. I also think it sets a false precedent by saying that you can know someone based on their deeds. Paul admits in Romans 7 that he desires to do the good but cannot because of his "body of death". Are we to suppose that because Paul cannot do the "good" that he is not a Christian? I think not.

    We are simultaneously justified and sinful; we have not made it to complete sanctification. So, to say that we can know someone by their fruits is a bit misleading. First of all, it is very difficult to judge a person based on their deeds because even non-Christians can do good things like not murder another person, lie, and love other people. And we know, based on Paul's frustrations, that Christians can do bad things.

    So, yes, deeds to flow from our hearts. But our hearts have not been completely sanctified, therefore we do bad things. Are faith is not based on that, but we are encouraged to "work out our salvation" (Phil. 2). It is by this standard that we can judge a persons actions but not their actual faith in God (if they proclaim it).

  • Tue Oct 28, 2008 9:38 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

    wbmoore, (cont.)
    As to the issue of Paul saying (Acts 26:20) that he preached that people are to "prove their repentance by deeds." I do not think it has the implication that you are applying to it. I do not think Paul is saying that you can tell a Christian by their deeds. The word in Greek used for "prove" in the translation you used is "aksios", meaning something which "corresponds" or is "befitting" of something. It does not carry the meaning of proving by a set of criteria as to whether that person is a Christian or not, but rather that they should do what is expected of their faith.

  • Tue Oct 28, 2008 9:37 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    wbmoore,

    I do not think that the context in that situation applies directly as a criterion for determining whether one is following God's will. Jesus is not applying this as a qualification for people within earshot of his voice. Rather he is applying this to people (false prophets) outside of the group. If this exhortation was meant to be self-referential to those listening to him, he would have exhorted that THEY should be aware of being a false prophet. Notice what it says "false prophets who come to YOU". Clearly the people listening to him are not to apply this criterion to themselves but to others who come proclaiming something contrary to the message of Jesus.

  • Tue Oct 28, 2008 9:10 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 0

    This is really great stuff, revealing the intellectual vacuum of those who choose to hide in the opiate of the masses. The nation's economic system has been nationalized without any howls on the part of the intellectually-challenged and here come Ford, GM, and Chrysler as well as the nation's insurance companies to line up at the Treasury money trough to wallow in the largess and willingly, if not gleefully, accept nationalization as a really great way to do business. Again, where are the arch-conservative howls of protest?
    -
    Ah, but, there are howls of protest about the potential for nationalization of national health care, especially when SEN Obama tells the voting public that he wants to give them the same level of health care that Congress provides for itself. Oh my gawd, that's blatant socialism and the very threshold of Marxist control of the national govt.
    -
    So, where are your collective howls of protest about such nationalized health care keeping John McCain alive for at least four decades? Aren't you allowing yourselves to be set up as raving hypocrites/
    -
    And just how is a man who owns seven homes and 13 automobiles gonna identify with this proverbial middle class? Or the Sow-With-Lipstick who has all the intelligence of a box of rocks and is proclaimed by one and all to have such a breadth of experience that not even the Library of Congress can contain the knowledge she has accumulated in 44 years of some kind of experience. Again, more collective exercise in rather vapid hypocrisy.
    -
    But, hey, whatever melts your butter. In conclusion, I must admit to one burning question: where y'all gonna go live by noon, November 5, 2008, after SEN Obama's landslide election? Just a hunch on my part but I bet Robert Mugabe would be pickled tink to welcome every last one of you to his awesome little nation.
    -
    Ultimately, given the conviction of SEN Ted Stevens and the coming defeat of Don Young, the Alaska Legislature can prove the existence of a diety of some form by impeaching Palindrone for obstruction of justice and banishing her to Talkeetna for life.

  • artm »
    Tue Oct 28, 2008 9:00 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    To be a Christian, Means to be a follower of Jesus Christ, And to believe he is what the Scriptures declare Him to be.

    Anyone who does not follow Christ, and who does not believe he is everything the Scriptures declare him to be, " Is not a Christian."

    anyone who does not believe that Faith in Christ, and what he did on the Cross is the only way one can be saved and get to Heaven, " Is not a Christian."

  • Tue Oct 28, 2008 8:07 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    "It looks like, walks like, talks like and smells like desperation to me," said the Rev. Kirbyjon Caldwell of Houston, an Obama supporter who backed President Bush in the past two elections. The Methodist pastor called the 2012 letter "false and ridiculous." He said it showed that some Christian conservative leaders fear that Obama's faith-based appeals to voters are working."

    What is really working here is confusion.
    We do not serve a God of confusion.

  • Tue Oct 28, 2008 7:13 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    Disciple08, (continued)

    John the Baptist said in Luke 3:7-14 that we should produce fruit in keeping with repentance, and describes some concrete examples of this.

    Paul said in Acts 26:20,
    First to those in Damascus, then to those in Jerusalem and in all Judea, and to the Gentiles also, I preached that they should repent and turn to God and prove their repentance by their deeds.

    While this is certainly debatable, I think it is safe to say that fruit in keeping with repentance are deeds that prove one's repentance - good deeds.

    In terms of good fruit, I think it is safe to say that God is good, the Holy Spirit is God, and therefore fruit of the Spirit are good fruit. Paul spoke of the acts of the sinful nature, and then tells us some of the fruit of the Spirit in Galatians 5:19-24
    19 The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

    22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires.

    Ephesians 5:9
    For the fruit of the light consists in all goodness, righteousness and truth

    If we are to do deeds in keeping with repentance, produce fruit in keeping with repentance, then I think it is appropriate to use the verse Tom used to indicate we should be known by what we do.

  • Tue Oct 28, 2008 7:11 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    Disciple08,

    I would normally agree with you, but in context, the verse is speaking about people who claim to be doing God's will and are not. It is not just about false prophets. I think the principle is that we are to be careful and be certain we are doing God's will, and whether someone is doing God's will is born out in the results of their actions. We must do what God would have us do and not what the world would have us do.

    Matthew 7:13-27
    13 Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.
    15 Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16 By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thorn bushes, or figs from thistles? 17 Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them. 21 Not everyone who says to me, "Lord, Lord," will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, "Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?" 23Then I will tell them plainly, "I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!"
    24 Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25 The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock. 26 But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. 27 The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash.

    Also, Jesus said in Matthew 12:33-37, in reference to the Pharisees,
    33 Make a tree good and its fruit will be good, or make a tree bad and its fruit will be bad, for a tree is recognized by its fruit. 34 You brood of vipers, how can you who are evil say anything good? For out of the overflow of the heart the mouth speaks. 35 The good man brings good things out of the good stored up in him, and the evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in him. 36 But I tell you that men will have to give account on the day of judgment for every careless word they have spoken. 37 For by your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned.

    But the deeper principle is that "good" people will do things from the goodness of their hearts, and "evil" people will do things from the evilness in their hearts. What we do flows out of who we are.

  • Tue Oct 28, 2008 6:07 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    Tom,

    It is obvious I need to say this again: You are pulling that verse out of context. It is about False Prophets not Christians. Read the passage.

    I was not saying actions do not reveal who a person is. A person who lies is obviously a liar. What I am saying is that you are using a verse for something that is obviously not a part of the original context.

    You also have to be careful of your logic that a person is a Christian based upon their actions. That's untrue. A person is a Christian based on their profession of Christ as God.

    True, good actions come from a person with faith in Christ. But they are not the measure of whether that person is a Christian or not. Indeed, even Christians sin, an activity that is obviously against that of Christ's. Therefore, a person's fruit can be judged on whether they are living the Christian life properly or not, but not on whether they are a Christian or not. For example, based on your logic, a Christian who lies is not a Christian because that is "bad" fruit. That is simply false logic that is not based in the Bible.

    You have merely confused the distinction between LIVING as a Christian (and what fruits are proper to that life) and BEING a Christian (which is measured by faith not deeds).

  • Tom »
    Tue Oct 28, 2008 5:02 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 2

    Sorry dis. if you are a follower of Christ you are known by your fruits if you are for the murder of the innocent then your fruits are bad. argy--- We were attack on sept 11 2001 we are at war. Please give Pres. Bush the right to fight as he and his generals see fit. Just like we have every other Pres in a time of war. In 2006 I was sitting pretty good then the dems got control of the house and senate and the ecomony went into the tank. Let me ask you are you better off then two years ago? If you aren't and most are not then blame the ones in power and who did nothing for 2 years. The obama's and the democratic party. Sorry if I seem angry really not just amazed at how qullable those who would vote for him seem to be. Gods Blessing
    In Christ
    Tom

  • Tom »
    Tue Oct 28, 2008 4:46 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    cha Sorry your wrong Jesus said you will know they are my friends if they follow His command. One of them is not to murder. If you are voting for someone who is prodeath as are the dems, then you are just as quilty as those who would murder the innocent. Thus your fruits are contary to Gods will. This is about those who dont have a choice. The last 8 years have produced some progress in this holocaust of the innocent. Gods Blessing In Christ
    Tom

  • Tue Oct 28, 2008 3:50 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

    To think that electing Obama president will suddenly swing the debate of abortion is somewhat absurd. I mean, Bush was in office for 8 years with a Republican congress for 6 of them, as well as appointing 2 more conservative judges to the Supreme Court, yet they didn't pass any legislation to outlaw abortion completely. Saying that all democrats (I'm not one) are not Christian is ignorant. I'm pretty sure I've seen my share of Republican lawmakers who have been less than "moral" (Bathroom stalls to inappropriate behavior with pages). Some "Christians" are leading the attacks calling a fellow American the antichrist, a muslim, and a socialist. Get educated instead of just listening to sound bites you probably got from Fox News. My vote? I'm still thinking about it, but the way the right is becoming more and more hate and fear oriented, I'm starting to lean towards Obama. I predict if Obama is elected next Tuesday, the world will somehow still be here on Wednesday.

  • Tue Oct 28, 2008 3:48 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Tom,

    Actually the phrase "you will know them by their fruits" comes in the context of determining who is a false prophet or not (Matt. 7:15). There is no mention in this section of Scripture of what is the criterion for a true Christian or not (obviously since there were not Christians at that point, only followers of Jesus.) So your application of that criterion is a misapplication of what Scripture truly says. As well, there is not specific mention of what qualifies as "good" fruits. If we take it completely in context, then we must assume that since this is the Sermon on the Mount than these "good" fruits are based on the virtues that Christ describes in that Sermon (like, meekness, pureness of heart, peacemaking)

  • Tue Oct 28, 2008 3:06 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    And i bet the majority of people who read my first post already judged me thinking i am pro-abortion, and they were wrong...

  • Tue Oct 28, 2008 3:02 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 1

    I noticed that to msn.

    And about the fruit, McCains fruit may not be abortion but war, tax breaks for the rich, and i could go on and on. No candidate is perfect, and not all Obama's supporters agree with his views on abortion, but rather, the weigh him out to be a lesser evil than Mcain. Its not for us to judge the "Christianess" of another brother, for all you know someone who doesnt quite understand abortion, and how it is murder could still be someone whogives far more attention and support for the poor than you do, they couldhave spread the good news of Christ to far more people than you ever have and yet because they might have a wrong view on abortion (that might even change someday due to the reveiling power of the spirit) you condemn them as a fake Christian. I myself used to not see a problem with abortion in situations of incest, rape, ect. but my views have changed due to revalations in the spirit, now does it make me less of a christian? i dont think by any means, none of us will every be fully 100% doctrinaly correct untill our savior returns and reveals for us all. What really matters is our continuing faith in Christ and our obediance through repentance.

  • Tue Oct 28, 2008 2:29 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Argyle - " Their are those who by faith feel that although abortion is one issue there are others that to the person might out weigh it to them like war for example."

    So good Christians should have opposed Lincoln because war is worse than slavery? Abortion is even worse than slavery, but war is a bigger deal?

  • Tue Oct 28, 2008 2:02 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 2

    Isn't it interesting that the picture in this article of Obama looks a lot like pictures of a another Marxist, Malcolm X.

    I ask all fellow Catholics on this board to get out your Rosaries and pray a Novena(9days of Scriptural prayer) for God's intercession in this election.

    May God grant us Christians a McCain/Palin victory and I ask this through Our Lord Jesus Christ, Amen.

    To all my Protestant brothers and sisters in Christ, pray my friends pray that God will grant us His mercy in this pivotal election and that McCain/Palin will win. It is all in God's hands, your children need you Lord and we beg you for your help!

    McCain/Palin 2008 is the only way to secure our right to be Christians and to elect prolife Supreme Court Justices and make gay marriage unconstitutional. May God bless the USA and Israel!

  • Tue Oct 28, 2008 1:56 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 2

    Obama is a piegon who has come home to roost

  • Tom »
    Tue Oct 28, 2008 1:36 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

    Argle Scripture also says that we will know them by their fruits. If you vote pro death ie for the pro death democrates then you are for the death of the unborn.... That is your fruit. Jesus said those that bear rotten ruit will be cut off. if you can not defend the lives of the most innocent how can believer trust you with other commandments of God? Gods Blessing
    In Christ
    Tom

  • Tue Oct 28, 2008 1:18 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 2

    When you see an article like this one that says "favors abortion rights" you know the author is liberal. Would they say pro-slave people in the South "favored whipping rights"? That Hitler "favored rights of people to Jewish free zones"? Remember what we are talking about-- dismembered babies, not generic "rights".

  • Tue Oct 28, 2008 1:11 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

    Judge not, least you be judged yourself.
    Just because some one votes Obama doesnt make them a non-christian. Their are those who by faith feel that although abortion is one issue there are others that to the person might out weigh it to them like war for example. We are justified by faith in Christ, not on who we vote for, or where we exactly stand on contraversial issues. Personally i dont find either candidate worth my vote, but i dont think its right to JUDGE the level of a fellow brother's/sister's faith by who they vote for. We ALL must give an account for EVERY deed we have done, so unless you've been completly perfact all your life to the law of mosess not once committing sin, dont start calling all Obama supporters anti-christian.

  • Tue Oct 28, 2008 12:17 pm Agree: 5   Disagree: 2

    I agree with you Tom.

    PRAY CHRISTIANS PRAY!

    I am still so shocked at how many people calling themselves "Christians" are voting Obama. I guess they really don't are about what GOD's way is. Just as long as the sales pitch suits their own needs.

  • Tom »
    Tue Oct 28, 2008 11:54 am Agree: 4   Disagree: 2

    Go Focus---Action I pray it isn't to late. God help us if obama gets elected. I feel for the unborn who DONT HAVE A CHoice, I feel for the Elderly who won't have a say. I feel for the Believer as their rights will be takened away. I feel for this country as the Constitution will be changes to something that it wasn't intended to be and I feel for this country as God will bring judgement on it. Now is the time for God people to stand up, pray, fast, and go to the polls and vote for the party that supports Morals, God given morals. not perfect mind you but seeking to do the right thing in Gods eye's. The life of the unborn and depend on us.
    Gods Blessing
    In Christ
    Tom

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