After weeks of prayer and intense campaigning on both sides, Californians passed a constitutional amendment banning same-sex marriage.
The measure overturns the state Supreme Court decision in May that legalized gay marriage.
Supporters of Proposition 8 had claimed victory Tuesday night as numbers played out in their favor. But opponents said it was too soon to make the call as many votes remained uncounted.
As of Wednesday morning, however, Prop 8 passed 52 percent to 47.9 percent. Although with nearly 96 percent of the votes tallied, there are absentee and provisional ballots still uncounted, reports indicate the 5 percent margin will be difficult to overcome, according to The Mercury News.
"Just over a month ago, we were behind in the polls, and things did not look good for traditional marriage," said Jim Garlow, pastor of Skyline Church in San Diego. "Then we began our 40 days of prayer and fasting, and began hosting rallies that were simulcast to churches all over the state, and we began to see the tide turn. Tonight, we are just grateful for this result, not just as evidence of the people’s decision on marriage, but as evidence of God’s will and plan for marriage and families."
Leading into the polls on Tuesday, a CBS News poll had shown the "Yes on 8" campaign leading only by a 48-45 percent margin and opponents had out-raised the amendment supporters in a last-minute fundraising blitz in Hollywood.
Christians and traditional marriage supporters, however, collected their spiritual strength and organized massive prayer rallies and 40-day campaigns in an effort to defend marriage as between one man and one woman. They also raised an impressive $40 million and the support of over 100,000 volunteers to the traditional marriage cause.
According to Ron Prentice, chairman of ProtectMarriage.com, the "Yes on 8" campaign was the "single largest, most powerful grassroots movement in the history of American ballot initiative campaigns."
"This is a great day for marriage," said Prentice. "The people of California stood up for traditional marriage and reclaimed this great institution. We are gratified that voters chose to protect traditional marriage and to enshrine its importance in the state constitution. We trust that this decision will be respected by all Californians."
Thousands of same-sex couples married since the May ruling. Whether their unions are still valid will be resolved in court, legal experts say.
One lesbian couple, who was the first to be married in Los Angeles County, plans to announce a lawsuit arguing that the proposition is unconstitutional, according to The Mercury News.
While similar marriage amendments were being voted on in Arizona and Florida, California drew wide attention as many believed it would set a precedent for other states.
With Tuesday's win, Christians are optimistic.
"We were able to draw a line in the sand on this issue, and we hope this helps to protect the definition of marriage across the nation," said Garlow. "Personal and religious freedoms were at stake, as well as our children’s education, and we are grateful for all the prayers, volunteers and financial support from those who stood with us from outside the state of California."
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"my personal conclusion. you as a group have an overwhelming fear of punishment. that fear translates into anything associated with homosexuality."
Are you serious? That kind of logic doesn't even make sense. There's only one thing I fear: Falling so far from God that the line between heaven and hell becomes blurred, and I cross that line and lose my soul. Other than that, I fear nothing.
feet,
Fear? What does fear have to do with Gods Word explicitly pointing out that homosexuality is a sin?
feet, plus there are far more ways to violate God's plan for sexual intimacy than just the sexual practices of homosexuality.
feet, so is that your way of graciously bowing out of the discussion rather than admitting that marriage as designed by God is one man and one woman united as one in the sight of God for life and that sexual intimacy is reserved for the marriage bed of one man and one woman united as one in the sight of God for life through marriage?
my personal conclusion. you as a group have an overwhelming fear of punishment. that fear translates into anything associated with homosexuality.
feet, there's nothing to explain, the same way when the policeman pulls you over for speeding there's nothing he has to explain to you when he shows you the radar gun that shows how many miles over the posted speed limit you were traveling.
feet, based on your logic a person could interpret a speed limit sign in one of three ways, you must go exactly the posted speed, you cannot go any higher than the posted speed, or you cannot go any lower than the posted speed limit since to limit the interpretation to only of the three options would be reading something into it.
you didnt believe my comment about quoting without explanation?
feet, the sexual practices of homosexuality are a sin because they fall outside God's boundaries for sexual intimacy which is reserved for the marriage bed of one man and one woman united as one in the sight of God by marriage.
If the words are important, then pay attention to God,
Romans 1:24-27
24 Therefore God gave them over in the SINFUL desires of their hearts to SEXUAL IMPURITY for the DEGRADING of their bodies with one another. 25 They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator - who is forever praised. Amen. 26 Because of this, God gave them over to SHAMEFUL lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for UNNATURAL ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed INDECENT acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their PERVERSION.
God is clear, homosexual sex is sinful, sexual impurity, degrading, shameful, unnatural, and indecent.
Corinthians 6:9-10
9 Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 10 nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.
God said that each man is to have his own wife and each woman her own husband, to avoid sexual immorality.
1 Corinthians 7:2
But because of immoralities, each man is to have his own wife, and each woman is to have her own husband.
feet,
Sorry; your interpretation of Scripture is more akin to the doctrines of the Nicolaitans . . .
But I do see from you're opinion, that murder and lying aren't sins. For we are to love our neighbors as ourselves.
feelfine,
You fall under your own judgement, for you interpret as you will. Unfortunately, the Scriptures still call homosexuality a sin. And define marriage as being between one man and one woman. If there is any "errant" interpretation, it is to say that it doesn't.
paul says in romans that the sons of god are led by the spirit of god.
where is your scripture that says under the new covenant we are to be led by our interpretation of the law, everything written requiring interpretation?
if, in romans, the summation of the law is the spirit direction(commandment) of love your neighbor as yourself, then the essence of every law under the new covenant is the summation. they are not seperate and apart from each other the summation of the law and the essence of each law is the same.
around this summation is how we are to be led under the new covenant.
why is it so hard for all of you, to merely read my messages?
no its the reverse, the words are very important, apparently more important to me than to you.
im the one who keeps asking for explanation how the words of the verses you quote say that homosexuality is a sin.
all of you can quote till the cows come home........but none of you can explain how the words say it.
again.........in matt 19, the important word "only" is not there. that means that a man woman one flesh relationship is one possiblity.........but not the ONLY possibility.
your whole case is wrapped around your injecting a word to give it the import that you want for the sake of your theology. and this is, not to mention the dispensation of verse 11 that you attempt to regulate with legalities for the same purpose.
and yes god's word is important, but anything written requires interpretation. the fact that you chose an interpretation and then attempt to assume to know the mind of god by saying your choice of interpretation is god's, contradicts isaiah 1 and 1cor 13.
aren't you all in unified agreement that anyone who contradicts scripture does not love god. even though this statement contradicts.................. 1kings8:39 then hear from heaven, your dwelling place. Forgive and act; deal with each man according to all he does, since you know his heart (for you ALONE know the hearts of all men),
ifeelfine,
You said "the fact that you would lean so heavily on your understanding of legalities in itself makes your explanation weak.'
Kinda like when you said "thepenitent - I've read it several times. You're implying that it says one man and one woman and that is not what it says. Your making something up that is not there."
I think what it is,is that you got caught in a lie, and it pissed you off. Of course you're going to talk "legalities" because you're backed into a corner you can't get out of. You think God winks at our willful sin.
Well, He doesn't. Homosexuality is a sin. Marriage is for ONE man and ONE woman, according to scriptures. If you want to argue for homosexual right to marry, do so without the Bible, because the Scriptures simply do not support your view.
"daniel paul
are you reading?"
Absolutely...and so are the others. In fact, they are posting what they are reading. They are showing from the
Bible what the Bible says (always the best way) but you are saying they are preaching to the choir. The choir, as a rule, agrees with the word of God as preached. You do not. You argue with the word of God and that word clearly posted.
Anytime you are not willing to accept the Bible as written and place arguements against it then you are not in agreement with the Bible. (Just fyi, that might keep you from being in our choir!)
Case and point:
"there is no 'only' in matt 19"
There is no 'only' on any speed limit signs. Still, you go over or too far under and you get a ticket. If the price tag says $1.00 (assuming it is right) it is understood that it is only a dollar...not 99 cents and not $1.01. You are foolish to pay more or to think you are going to get the product by paying less. Jesus said one man and one woman...period. Anything else is foolishness.
feet, so if a person no longer wants to follow a teaching or command of God they simply say that teaching or command was simply a result of the ebb and flow of shifting time and they're no longer meant to adhere to that teaching or command any longer?
Jesus said, "if you love me you will keep my commandments". By feel's definition Jesus was just a legalist and not a Christian.
Hahaha. Feet soudns like Humpty Dumpty in "Through the looking Glass" - "words mean whatever I want them to, nothing more and nothing less". He seem to think one can ignore plain meaning of the words of scripture on their face and replace it with whatever he meaning he feels led to put there. If that's the case why have the prophets write down scripte at all? Words mean something and one can't change that by trying to rationalize away such a simple concept as "legalizing". New age gnosticism, bleech.
(rather than a book of writings that pointed to his spirit)
feet, you fail to realize that (all scripture is given by the inspiration of God); it is the Holy Spirit that moved these men to pen holy writ. So, we must turn to Gods Word for instruction in righteousness; again, can you post a passage of scripture that speaks of same sex unions in a positive light?
what is of god is not determined by legalities which ebb and flow with the shifting of the times.............but by spirit.
you will regognize them them by their fruit............the fruit of the spirit.
why do keeep clingng to the idea that god put a list of legalities in the form of scripture that we were suppose to be led by, rather than a book of writings that pointed to his spirit.
daniel paul
are you reading?
feet, show the choir a passage of scripture where God redefines marriage in any other way?
"the four of you dont need to quote scripture. that is like preaching to the choir."
Yes but is the choir listening?
"Thanks for posting your testimony. It's great to read of God working so obviously. "
You're welcome. Any time! God works directly in peoples lives everyday. The problem is people don't want to see His work for what it is. We want to take credit for the good stuff and blame all the bad stuff on an 'act of God'.
God is willing to work in the life of anyone who stops leaning on their own understanding. This is why so many of the pro-gay camp are not being delivered (not to mention hundreds of other camps). They lean on their own understanding of the Bible, God, morality, marriage and the list goes on. The Bible is about keeping our lives between the lines. It's amazing how fewer accidents happen when people obey the rules of the road....
the four of you dont need to quote scripture. that is like preaching to the choir.
what you need to do ,which you either cant or refuse is explain how the words the verses that you quote say what you think they say.
there is no "only" in matt 19. and you attempt to legalize your way thru verse 11.
and you are with any spirit explanation for your understanding or any explanation thru acknowledging what god has made.
the fact that you would lean so heavily on your understanding of legalities in itself makes your explanation weak.
DP:
I've noticed that when I have clicked the 'view all' link, the flag and delete do not work.
Thanks for posting your testimony. It's great to read of God working so obviously.
I think that ifeelfines bible says
"In the begining God created them male, female, male and male, female and female, transgendered, or whatever man wants. And for this reason a man/men/woman/women, will leave his/their/her mother/mothers and/or father/fathers and cleave to his/their/her wife/wives/husband/husbands/partners/lovers, etc, etc and those two, three, or how ever many they desire will become one."
Ya think?
NOT.
And for the rest of you homosexuals, let me quote the beginning of that scripture as well.
"And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female,
5And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?"
God created man and woman in the beginning. The phrase "for this cause" translates "on account of" or "because of this".
Meaning that since God created man and woman, because of this a man will leave his mother and father and cleave to his wife.
Anyone who says that marriage includes homosexuals knows absolutely nothing about the scriptures, and lives and propigates a lie right from Satan himself.
ifeelfine,
The scriptures say "5And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?"
Twain: Two...one man and one woman.
Wife: Singular. One woman.
A man: Singular. One man.
Any questions?
Delete and flag are not working for me tonight. I guess the system thinks somethings are worth repeating! I tried to get out how the site views " and ' from MS Word. I thought I'd check my spelling for a change. :-)
"DP: Did you get remarried?"
Ah, here we go again.... Yep. Even Jesus said divorce was allowed because of the wickedness of our hearts and 1Cor talks about remarriage under certain conditions.
My first wife left 13 times in 14 years of marriage. Sometimes she took the children and sometimes without. One time she just disappeared for 3 days with the children not knowing if she was dead or alive. The oldest was in still in elementary school at the time. Still, each time I worked to restore the relationship (even though there had been 3 affairs on her part). After all, Jesus forgives me for all the junk I pull. Where would I come off divorcing her?
The last time she left the church tried to help her but she would have no part in it. She turned her back on God, me and the children. She refused to even tell the church why she was leaving. Matthew 18 says that kind of person is to be treated as an unbeliever. 1 Cor 7 (if memory serves) talks about an unbeliever who has chosen not to live with you and the right to remarry.
Do I recommend divorce? No. Did I seek divorce? No. In our country she can do that all by herself. Still, the Bible is clear. Also, the Bible says not to seek a wife. I didn’t. In fact, about 100 singles at the church I go to thought I was peanuts for thinking that God would just bring a wife to me at the church if he wanted me to have one. It was quite interesting the day my wife showed up! We worked very hard to be just friends. We came to the conclusion that we needed to go through premarital counseling as that usually ends most of those kinds of relationships. Our church used a book called "Saving you marriage before it starts". The singles called it the engagement ender! After 4 weeks the person doing the counseling said "why aren't you guys already married. You’re more suited for each other than most of the couples in the church!" Who needs match.com when you’ve got God and you play by His rules?
"DP: Did you get remarried?"
Ah, here we go again.... Yep. Even Jesus said divorce was allowed because of the wickedness of our hearts and 1Cor talks about remarriage under certain conditions.
My first wife left 13 times in 14 years of marriage. Sometimes she took the children and sometimes without. One time she just disappeared for 3 days with the children not knowing if she was dead or alive. The oldest was in still in elementary school at the time. Still, each time I worked to restore the relationship (even though there had been 3 affairs on her part). After all, Jesus forgives me for all the junk I pull. Where would I come off divorcing her?
The last time she left the church tried to help her but she would have no part in it. She turned her back on God, me and the children. She refused to even tell the church why she was leaving. Matthew 18 says that kind of person is to be treated as an unbeliever. 1 Cor 7 (if memory serves) talks about an unbeliever who has chosen not to live with you and the right to remarry.
Do I recommend divorce? No. Did I seek divorce? No. In our country she can do that all by herself. Still, the Bible is clear. Also, the Bible says not to seek a wife. I didn’t. In fact, about 100 singles at the church I go to thought I was peanuts for thinking that God would just bring a wife to me at the church if he wanted me to have one. It was quite interesting the day Jenni showed up! We worked very hard to be just friends. We came to the conclusion that we needed to go through premarital counseling as that usually ends most of those kinds of relationships. Our church used a book called “Saving you marriage before it startsâ€Â. The singles called it the engagement ender! After 4 weeks the person doing the counseling said “why aren’t you guys already married. You’re more suited for each other than most of the couples in the church!†Who needs match.com when you’ve got God and you play by His rules?
‘Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’ (Mt 19:5).
Thus Jesus says "A" man (just as I said) and his "wife" (singular). Just to reinforce it he refers to the marriage as between "two" (ie. one man and one woman) Thus, you don't have a clue what you are talking about. Like I said you should really read these books first before taking about them.
ifeelfine, the difference is that by supporting laws that allow for same-sex marriage you also give your approval to homosexual couples violating God's design for not only marriage, but for sexual intimacy as well.
ifeelfine, Matthew 19:5, "and He also said; For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two will become one flesh. So they are no longer two, but one flesh." How does this not make it clear that God's design for marriage is one man and one woman united as one in God's sight for life?
ifeelfine, but it will not solve the problems that lead to divorce, so what is the point of making divorce illegal if it doesn't solve the problem?
believer: If there were a law against it, wouldn't there be fewer divorces (ie none)? How is that different than legislating against "gay marriage?"
thepenitent - I've read it several times. You're implying that it says one man and one woman and that is not what it says. Your making something up that is not there.
ifeelfine, if you could convince me that a law could end the problem of divorce in our country I would 100% support passage of such a law. But the problem is divorce is not a problem it is the result or consequence of a problem. I've not heard of anyone who got a divorce because things were great in their marriage and family.
ifeelfine, I have never said that we are to take everything in the Bible literally. What I have said is that the Bible in its' original manuscripts is the God-breathed, inerrant, plenary, Word of God, in other words it is literally the Word of God. Plus, if you remember I am the person who shares via a former college professor that the Bible says what it means and means what it says, but the Bible doesn't always say what it means or mean what it says. But let me make myself perfectly clear God's design for marriage is clearly spelled out in the Old and New Testament alike and most importantly stated by Christ Himself.
ifeelfine, if you believed in the inerrancy of the Scriptures you would not be in favor of same-sex marriage. God clearly states without error that marriage is one man and one woman united as one in the sight of God for life. He offers no alternatives or options in this matter.
Those who divorce are in the same boat as homosexuals. They are both penalized. Divorcees have to spend lots of money to get the divorce, if there's kids involved then there's visitation rights, child support, etc, and also the case of alimony in many divorces.
So, like homosexual marriages, while it is not "illegal", it is still looked down upon, and also penalized in of it's own rights.
ifeelfine72,
Polygamy is something that had become culturally acceptable but God never instituted it. Can you post a passage which states otherwise? Sorry, but same sex unions are NEVER spoken of in Scripture in a positive light; period.
He sure did. Right there in the book of Matthew. You ought to read it sometime.
believer: I believe in the Bible is inerrent - I just don't believe its to be taken literally . . . how many times must I say that? You continually twist what I say - it makes me think that you aren't so interested in a discussion as you are in arguing and fighting.
Anyway, you're the one that claims to take the Bible literally - I'm only pointing out the obvious hypocrisy of that. If you believe in laws against same sex marriage then you must believe in laws against divorce. Its simple.
believer: That's not true.
thepenitent: No he didn't.
ifeelfine, God defines marriage in both the Old and New Testament alike as one man and one woman united as one in the sight of God for life, there are no options or alternatives presented by God to His design and definition of marriage. So why would any who claims to be a true believer allow the government to enact laws that would violate that standard?
ifeelfine, you're an amazing person, you do not believe in the inerrancy of God's Word and yet when it's to your advantage you go an interpret it from an inerrant perspective, such as you're doing with this divorce issue.
Homosexuality was known since Moses' time. Marriage is between one man and one woman. And regardless of whether divorce was illegal or not would not change your stance on homosexuality. If I even thought for a half a second that making divorce illegal would change your stance on homosexuality, I would find your question meritable. As it is, in many states, if homosexuals got married, it wouldn't be illegal....it just wouldn't be recognized. It's not like they're going to take you to jail if you "got married". So, homosexual marriages aren't illegal, they're just not recognized. Try not embelish your point.
Polygamy is not "OK" according to the NT. Jesus said marriage is between A man and A woman. That excludes polygamy, homo marriage, marriage between man and animal or any other similar perversion.
online: death isn't divorce, the abandonment situation is pretty controversial only is it allowed for adultry . . . so if the legislation built that in, would you be supportive of the law outlawing divorce?
Explicitly defines? Explicitly defines . . . what about polygamous marriages? Polygamy is ok according to the Bible.
beleiver: I'm pointing out the hypocrisy of your position. And its very clear that you are being a hypocrite and can't see it or at least won't admit it.
Anyway, how is what I am doing "belittling" and what you're doing not? We both believer that what we are doing is right in God's eyes.
Of COURSE it was known in Christ's time.
I do not understand the claim that long-term homosexual relationships were not known in Bible times. Of course they were. Alexander The Great and Hephaistion, of whom it is said were life long lovers, would be known (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hephaistion). As would Emperor Hadrian and his lover Antonius (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antinous). It was even beleived that Julius Ceasar had a long time homosexual relationship (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julius_Caesar). It even may be that Octavious had a relationship with Julius Ceasar (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Augustus).
Christ spoke out against sex that God said to not have. In speaking out against illicit sex, He automatically spoke out against relationships that would include such sex.
http://wbmoore.wordpress.com/2008/10/15/did-homosexual-relationships-exist-in-bible-times/
Because it wasnt a concept yet, so people would have stared at Jesus as if he were talking about the internet.
ifeelfine,
There are three Scriptural reasons where a biblical marriage (man and a woman) is allowed to divorce:
Death,
For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband (Romans 7:2).
Adultery,
And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery(Matthew 19:9). Note: this is permitted not commanded.
Abandonment,
But if the unbelieving depart, let him depart. A brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases: but God hath called us to peace (1Corinthians 7:15).
I find it interesting that the Scriptures explicitly define marriage (between a man and a woman) and the possible reasons for divorce but there is no scriptural support for same sex unions or marriages; why?
We could make divorce illegal, and ifeelfine would still not cede the point. He would still fight for homosexual right to marry...so his question is moot.
For some, it is just too hard to handle the truth of God's judgment against homosexuality because they have gay family and friends. Unable to bare the truth of a holy God's judgment, they twist the word and create a god that accepts homosexuality. Being weak, it becomes much easier to say, 'God loves you and accepts you the way you are,' then to warn the disobedient with a heart filled with the love of God.
ifeelfine, I am opposed to divorce and believe it should be avoided at all costs, but what would be the point or the benefit to making divorce illegal since even the Bible states there are certain situations when divorce and remarriage after divorce are permitted? Other than your need to belittle those of us who are opposed to same-sex marriage, what's your point for making divorce illegal?
DP: Did you get remarried?
And, where else is the word "ra" used in the same context? . . . I'll give you a hint, its in other places where evil means, well, evil.
"so why won't you take the same ferocious stand against divorce"
I can tell you that I do and I was divorced and left to raise 4 children by myself with little or no support. Divorce is an act of selfishness plain and simple. In fact, it only takes on side to get a divorce and there is nothing the other party can do about it.
For more than 20 years I have challenged people who want to divorce to tell me what they are going through and why they want a divorce. If it's worse than what I went through and still was trying to save the marriage I will give them my 'blessing' to divorce. I have not had give that 'blessing' in 20 years. I have had spouses work to fix their marriage ashamed of how they have acted....
" I make peace, and create evil:"
Once again English is such a lousy language. The word for 'evil' is Strongs #7451 which is defined as 'adversity, afflictin, bad, calamity' and so on. All discriptions of the opposite of 'peace' which is the context. It discribes poor circumstances. It is not the same as Holy vs. evil.
In fact, I counted over 5 different words in Hebrew for 'evil'. Please make sure you understand which word is being used. Just FYI, it is interesting that the Hebrew word used here is pronounced 'Ra' who was the god of the underworld in Egyptian mythology. He would make bad things happen to those he didn't like (the opposite of peace).
believer: right, so why won't you take the same ferocious stand against divorce that you do against same sex marriage? Why not have laws outlawing divorce?
ifeelfine, I do not claim to be a constitutional lawyer, but a follower of Jesus Christ who believes the Bible in its original manuscripts is the God-breathed, inerrant, plenary Word of God. The Bible clearly defines God's design for marriage and as a Christian I am compelled to come against anything or anyone that violates God's Word to include redefining His design and definition of marriage. I'll be out of pocket for a couple ofdays but I'll check this site when I return, have a blessed day, believer.
believer: So this isn't as much about "sin" as it is about law? Well, then you aren't much of a constitutional scholar, are you? Why do you think these other states need laws to outlaw same sex marriage? Answer: It's because we are a "freedom of" country, not a "freedom from" country like China. If there isn't a law against it, we can pretty much do it.
As for your other argument, it doesn't hold up under any kind of logic whatsoever. Don't you see that divorce violates God's idea (both definition and design) of marriage?
ifeelfine, same-sex marriage is illegal in most states already, I'm opposed to any law that would redefine marriage in anyway other than God's design of one man and one woman for life. The issue is not about the sins of homosexuality, but rather the attempt to redefine marriage. The sin of same-sex marriage is that it violates God's definition and design for marriage.
ifeelfine, plus as I noted earlier there are several reputable translations that do not use the word evil, but words such as calamity (HCSB, NKJV).
ifeelfine, the Hebrew word for "evil" (translated "disaster") represents natural calamity as well as moral evil. God, in His perfection, does nothing morally evil. But, since all events are subject to His control, He is ultimately responsible for all events in history and nature. Moral evil derives from the choices of human beings and angels, not God.
believer: The context of your interpretation of that passage doesn't make sense. It referred to the darkness earlier in the passage, why would it refer to it again?
In any case, I find it hypocritical that you support making one "sin" illegal without also making a sin that is worse on families also illegal . . . is it perhaps because that sin could possibly affect you?
elbib: I told you the words you used to describe your position didn't make sense, please re-describe it to me . . . I didn't say your position didn't make sense.
ifeelfine, I John 1:5, "This is the message we have heard from Him and announce to you, that God is Light, and in Him there is no darkness(evil) at all." I added the word evil since that is what darkness refers to. Plus several translations use calamity as opposed to evil when it refers to physical evil as opposed to moral evil.
ifeelfine, your reference to Isaiah 45:7, the text refers to physical evil and not moral evil. The same type of evil as referred to in Jeremiah 18:11, Lamentations 3:38, and Amos 3:6.
ifeelfine,
So, if God created evil, then it must be ok, right? Kind of like murder and stealing?
No, it's still a sin....just like homosexuality.
ifeelfine, as far as my comparing the two, please remember you are the one who posted that people who are opposed to same-sex marriage should consider starting action to make divorce illegal, so in essence it was you who were trying to compare the two.
ifeelfine, opposition to same-marriage is all about redefining God's definition for marriage which is even adhered to by many who are not Christians as well as Christians. And you are absolutely right there is no comparison between divorce and same-sex marriage and that's why no one is trying to make it against the law for a person or couple to get a divorce. But at the same time the Church in America needs to be doing all it can to keep couples from divorcing through pre-marital counseling and marriage enrichment classes and by whatever other means it can to prevent divorce. Plus the states may want to consider as some have all ready to require couples to go through some type of pre-marital counseling program before they can get married.
"Churches" that teach "certain" homosexual relationships are acceptable to God are led by another spirit. They have been deceived and are deceiving their flocks. Their assemblies are void of truth and light, it is raining brimstone and fire in their midst.
ifeelfine72: I explained before, when you asked me that question. I was very clear about my position. I can't image that you didn't hear me, unless you disregarded all that I had written.
believer: Here is one passage
Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.
believer: Marriage is ordained by God and state. Divorce is a sin. Your comparison of them makes absolutely no sense. There are laws against sins I have committed too. But that is what we are talking about. That is what same sex marriage is about, right? Legislating against "sin?"
As for your comment about Christians and non-Christians alike voting against it, congratulations, you're on the same side as the folks that don't have an excuse for their bigotry.
elbib: Could you be a little more coherent please? Would you support a law banning divorce or not? Divorce is much more destructive to families than same sex marriage.
Mike,
Homosexuality hurts the country spiritually. That is where much of the moral declination begins,is in the spiritual world. And when a country begins to decline spiritually, it will manifest it in its morals.
Homosexuality or gay marriage is not destructive on a society. If you want to argue promiscuity is, sure, but that is most certainly not isolated to the gay community. Gay marriage is about a committed couple, in love, starting a family together and getting the legal protections they deserve. That hurts no one, at all!
ifellfine72: The govenment should never be in the business of sanctioning behavior that is destructive to a society. To allow homosexuality would do that. And, just because there is work to be done ona the divorce issue, doesn't mean we should promote more wrongs. That will never get it right. But, it's reall
ifeelfine, could you also share what biblical support you use to support your contention that God created evil?
ifeelfine, what do you believe is the Christian view of divorce? Plus, no one is trying to redefine divorce as opposed to those who are trying to redefine marriage. And at this point in time in California, Arizona, and Florida along with 27 other states a majority of people living in those 30 states whether they are Christian or not believe that the definition of marriage is that of one man and one woman. Plus there are a number of laws against sins I have committed or at times am tempted to commit and in my young adult years I was even busted for some of them!
Everything God created good, so says His word. God also gave us the ability to choose to obey or not. By not obeying, mankind chooses to do evil. But no where does the Bible say He created evil.
"including evil"
Nope. God created a free will. The choice is to submit to Him or go with something else. Anything else is evil.
I don't know of any verse where it says God created evil. I do know that for there to be good there must be evil but that doesn't mean it was a creation of God.
We're all sinners in God's eyes, none worse than another. Hitler was no worse in God's eyes than me, his sin no greater than mine, right?
Instead of trying to legislate against "sin" that we ourselves would never consider committing, why not try legislating against sin that would would be capable of committing?
elbib: And yet, I've never once been asked to sign a petition or even heard of someone trying to get a divorce ban on the ballot. Have you? Why the obsession with same-sex marriage then?
I have a feeling that because you know you are either gay or you're not and since (I'm guessing) you are not gay, its easy for you to condemn. Just like I've never been divorced so it is easy for me to speak out against that.
prophet: Well according to the Bible God created everything, including evil so I guess He did have a hand in that type of relationship too.
God created everything good. But man warped it when He sinned, and as he continues to sin.
ifeelfine
"prphet: God created all love..."
Including the romantic, incestuous love between a brother and sister?
ifeelfine72: It would depend on the law's construction and definition. If its design showed understanding to and emulated that which God has ordained, seeing that He is the authority on marriage and divorce since it all originated with Him and not man, then I would be compelled to vote for it. This is why I would be compelled to vote against homosexual marriage, because with God, so evident in His Word, there is no such thing. That sexual relationship can be nothing more than an abomination. Just as someone trying to justify adultery. It is nothing more than an abomination. If two people of the same sex just had a piece of paper and refrained from sexual intimacy, there is no condemnation. But, we know that what homosexuals seek for is the acceptance of their sexual behavior through that license. They just don't admit it.
"Right, Prophet, I forgot, since you know the will of God, you are able to make that statement."
The Bible says it is the will of God that none should perish and it is clear what people will perish for! So, yes, we do know what the will of God is.
"God created all love."
Yep. All 4 types as discribed in the Greek. People get right messed up when they try to make one into another.
"I do not shun the truth, I shun your idea of it."
This is what is called "arbitrary absolutism" where truth is a matter of one's own ideas and not from the Bible. However, Christians die to self and thus die to their own idea of what is right and wrong and make the Bible the absolute.
In short, the statement is humanistic and not Christian. In fact, you will find this type of position all throughout the Humanist Manifesto Parts I & II.
You cannot serve two masters. You're either a humanist or you are a Christian. Your statement betrays you.
prphet: God created all love.
elbib - Would you vote to ensure that your views on divorce become law? Add the Christian view of divorce to the constitution? Make it illegal for divorcees to remarry?
ifeelfine72: I have no idea what your talking about. Yes, I apologized for my assumption, but not my stand against homosexuality and those comments he spoke concerning. I have no anomosity toward homosexuals anymore than against adulterers. I speak against both. Speaking of that, I believe the laws concerning divorce should be more strict. For Christians, I subscribe exclusively to what Jesus and Paul said concerning divorce. I believe many Christians are unaware of their own violations to God's Word when it comes to marriage and divorce. I do my best to teach it as it is recorded in the Scriptures. Of course, not all listen to me, as I'm sure you won't regard anything I say about homosexuality and what Scripture proclaims either. I'm no respector of persons. We are all in need of grace. I will stand for truth, though. Don't want any part of a lie.
Right, Prophet, I forgot, since you know the will of God, you are able to make that statement.
Homosexuality may be about "love", but it's not about the love that God created.
believer: Have you not read the rest of the posts on this thread?
ifeelfine, once again it took a whole lot more people than evangelical Christians to have passed this proposition, plus it appears that the only person interested in personally condemning others is you.
elbib, its interesting to notice the change in your attitude towards didymus once you learned he was not gay.
Many here are interested in codifying laws against same-sex marriage and yet wouldn't apply those same standards to themselves. Anyone here interested in outlawing divorce and remarriage after divorce?
And for the record, out of Christian love, anyone here interested in condemning Prophet for marrying a divorced woman?
The passage of Prop 8 is the moral equivalent of stoning that 13 year old girl who was raped in Somalia.
mike22685, but unless those attractions include lustful thoughts toward that person, at least you would not be living in sin as a result of having sexual intimacy!
DP, whether I am having sex or not, I would still be gay because of the attraction. Elbib, I do not shun the truth, I shun your idea of it.
hlerwin, you're 100% correct Christians do have an agenda, it's joing God in accomplishing His Great Commission. And if teaching children how they can have a personal relationship with God through the person and finished work of His Son, Jesus Christ alone, how to wholeheartedly love and obey God and His teachings, and how to love our neighbors and enemies is considered indoctrinating them, then I guess God's people and church would have to plead guilty.
Mike: You are so typical. You totally avoid and shun the truth. You have no backing whatsoever for the arguement of your behavior from any credible source, but from your own suppositions, and then say that it is acceptable to God. You say I will be judged by Christ. I welcome it sir, I welcome it. It can't come quick enough for me. But if it comes to me, it will definitely also come to you. Then we will know. If the evidence depicted in Scripture of the outcome of judgment upon the ungodly is true, then, God have mercy on the one that is wrong.
"The straight community sexualizes the gay community to such a degree that you'd think we do nothing else."
Two men can love each other without being gay. It's called 'brotherhood'. It is when the relationship breaks the Biblical boundaries there is a problem. This is when men exchange the natural for the unnatural as Paul put it in Romans.
I do make a choice to be sexually involved with my partner, but what we have certainly is love, and it is also not all about sex. The straight community sexualizes the gay community to such a degree that you'd think we do nothing else.
Mike: A man can be married to a woman and be having an affair with one other woman and be a normal bloke also, but he would still be committing sin. It's not about being a normal bloke, it's about your inordinate sexual involvement (fornication)violating God's law of creation and the biblical marriage of two individuals. "Man shall not lie with man. Fornication is idolatry. A man shall leave father and mother and shall cleave unto his wife and they shall be one flesh." You can keep pretending all you want that it's all about love, but sexual relations isn't about love, it's about abiding in it as God has ordained. He never attached love to it. It's fine to love someone, but, biblically, it doesn't justify being sexually intimate with them. Our sexual intimacy and intimacies produce ramifications with God who created our gender and ordained its sexual connections. If we deviate from that order, as we are commanded not to, we will be violating that ordination, which is sin, and pay the price for it, wether we like it or not. We make the choice and you obviously have made it and I doubt very much that what I am saying is going change your mind. It's hard for people to admit and turn from their sinful ways, whether it's sexual in nature or something other than that. The most prominent way in which they attempt to justify it, is to deny it, because of some noble idea (love), or to say "that's just your interpretatation."
DP, you show me the exact numbers and research that says more gay people go after children. I have a sneaking suspicion you don't understand what "homosexual or heterosexual" pedophile means (hint, its not referring to their sexual orientation!)
Elbib, being gay is not a lifestyle of sin. Certainly, there are some in the community who choose to go to clubs, to drugs, and have promiscuous sex who I think enjoy that immoral lifestyle, but my partner and I are pretty normal blokes.
Thank you, Lord for the answer to prayer!
Christians have been "indoctrinating" children for centuries with their Christian agenda.
All these agendae. What about the Christian agenda? Doesn't every group have an agenda? What's so bad about an agenda?
mike22685, I have not and hopefully will never bash the homosexual community and I wholeheartedly agree the homosexual community is NOT willfully out to violate children. My son attended high school in the late 90s in Montpelier Vermont and he and his classmates for one week attended classes encouraging those who thought they may be homosexual to come out of the closet. Then they proceeded to tell these students how to know if they were indeed homosexual. As his parents, we received no prior notification that this was going to go on. And even though I would have had no problem in my son attending I still had the right to know and I would have requested permission to attend myself and see what criteria they presented for a student to determine if they were homosexual. This was prior to same-sex unions being approved in VT. So please don't insist that students are not being exposed to presentations like this and once again in Mass. 5 year olds are being exposed to same-sex couples through books and classes without their parents permission. If these groups want to offer these presentations before or after school for any students who choose to voluntarily attend with the permission of their parents that's fine, but presentations done during school time should require as a minimum parental notification and permission.
didymus, I make no apology for Christians to include myself who stand against same-sex marriage, but for this proposition to have won required a whole lot of non-Christians to vote for the proposition as well.
It is the ultra libera secular community which is trying which is trying to ram its values down the throat of the rest of society. Traditional marriage has been the norm since the beginning of civilization. Thus, the gays and their cohorts which are try to change the status quo. They try to indoctrinate their radical values in our schools also. We know who the authoritarians are and its not the Christian community.
didymus: I'm sorry your so angry. One thing I do want to point out to you is this. I'm a Christian and I want to be surrounded, as much as possible, with a biblically defined moral environment. Regardless, besides my christian beliefs, I am, as well as others that voice their opinion against government sanctioned homosexuality, an American citizen that has the right to influence whoever I may in the realm of debate, and vote however I chose for whatever I deem appropriate. In America the wicked can attempt to influence their beliefs upon society and vote for what ever they want. They just don't get accused of doing it for their religion of unrighteousness. It's just more pronounced now, because of the moral decay among the populate, which did not exist a number of years ago. It's what empires experience before they go down. I don't know where you live or your situation, but if you can, you have the right to get out and go elswhere.
elbib,
You said, "Also, you really sound angry."
That's probably because I am angry. :^)
You said, "So you voted for Prop. 8. Great!"
No, I didn't... I live in the little known "Mormon theocracy" of Utah. But if I did live in California, I would have left both boxes blank.
Daniel Paul ,
You said, "I would have to disagree with this statement. Prop 8 did not criminalize what adults do behind closed doors. It simple was a statement of what was acceptable in public which is majority territory."
Good point and I agree with you on the overt public display, especially in church. But I'm opposed to church trying to impose a kind of Christendom on those outside of the church, and then turn around and call it love.
didymus,
"Please remember these, your own words, Phophet, when the "Christian" community is no longer the majority."
I will. And God will still be God, and my place in heaven will still be secure.
Mike,
You said, (I would be vehemently against it, but I wouldn't care if they read a book about Jesus and said Christianity is a good thing, or Islam. I think you can teach children about very real issues in their world without indoctrination, which certainly was not happening here)
This is what we have repeatedly discussed on other threads; Christianity is a good thing, in that God calls us to repent of our sins and invites us to come into a personal relationship with him. We are against same sex marriage just as you are against your child learning scriptural passages that define marriage to be one man and one woman. Despite your claims, children are being indoctrinated by this lifestyle; you said so yourself (parents do not need to be notified for books being read to their students).This is indoctrination my friend.
We teach children about very real issues; Jesus words are very real:
To have And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female, (Matthew 19:4).
But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female (Mark 10:6).
Mike: Your wrong! We know Jesus Christ will never be found in a lifestyle of sin or condoning it. Also, I don't view Christians as "being persecuted through this." If that lifestyle obtains a stronghold, I could see how that could evolve. If homosexuals ever gained enough power and authority, there is a militant disposition within many of them who could resort to that. The depiction of that militancy is very evident in the Scriptures. Observe a homosexual parade. It's not about being humble, considerate, or respectful. But, I don't fear that. I fear Him which can destroy both body and soul in hell. The Jesus who you know is not the Jesus I know. I will know my Jesus, because I am one of His sheep and I know His voice.
"claims that gays are going after children or that it is actually Christians being persecuted through this."
Actually it would be a more correct statement that more gay people go after children than straight people by the numbers. There are child preditors in all walks of life.
As for christians being the victims here... it isn't Christians as much as it is Christianity. It is part of the homosexual agenda to rewrite Christianity and get rid of anyone who doesn't agree with those revisions. In fact, the homosexual agenda considers it "hate speech" to even say the Bible says homosexuality is disquisting. Just because the Bible actually uses the word doesn't mean anything to the homosexual adgenda. That's where they throw in that whole "that part of the Bible is myth" or some other statement which displays selective theology.
Having lived in Asia I can tell you...you can say it tastes like chicken but that doesn't keep it from being dog meat.
"No, Prop 8 isn't about letting anyone choose their own lifestyle... it is about you choosing it for them. "
Although I would agree with most of the other stuff you wrote (at least at face value) I would have to disagree with this statement. Prop 8 did not criminalize what adults do behind closed doors. It simple was a statement of what was acceptable in public which is majority territory. We accept homosexuals in our church but I draw the line at them exibiting homosexual behavior just like I draw the line at people having alchohol at church functions. At the very least it is an issue to protect the weaker bretheren.
The problem I have with gay Christians is the concept that they find it OK to openly offend people with their actions. It is just as wrong for gay people to publicly display gay behavior in church as it is for a church to run gay people out.
The lies spread on this page are nothing but pathetic. Deep inside, each of you so called "Christians" know perfectly well that you are wrong to make these claims that gays are going after children or that it is actually Christians being persecuted through this. The majority does not always decide, and this is one of those cases. If you all want to congratulate each other by bashing the gay community further, so be it, but one day you will answer to Jesus, and certainly, you are not treating gays the way you would treat Jesus. Remember, you never know where Jesus is and if you are hurting him through your treatment of others.
didymus: I apologize for making the assumption that you were a homosexual or that you supported it. The way you were lambasting those who were against homosexualism, you could easily be construed as one, or a supporter of. So you voted for Prop. 8. Great! And, yes, I am aware that we are not a theocracy, but a democracy. Also, Prop. 8 was not about the majority choosing the lifestyle of others. It was about not recognizing the homosexual lifestyle equally in marriage to heterosexuals under the law. Also, you really sound angry.
elbib,
No, elbib, it's you who misunderstands. (First off I'm not gay, nor do I support gay marriage, so I am not among the minority you think I am.) America is not a part of Christendom, it is not a theocracy bounded by the Bible, it is a democracy that seeks to let the majority rule, while trying to protect the minority from the majority's despotism.
You said, "You chose your lifestyle."
No, Prop 8 isn't about letting anyone choose their own lifestyle... it is about you choosing it for them.
hlerwin: I love the way you portray anyone that disagrees with you as a bigot. Now all the blacks that voted for Prop. 8 are bigots, trained in the churches to be superdupper bigots. How about all the Latino's who voted for Prop. 8 - they are bigots too! What if some Chinese voted for it - bigots, all bigots! Even the atheists - bigots, brain washed by those bigot Christians, blacks, Latino's, Chinese, and any others that disagree with my unbelievable lifestyle! They are all hateful homophobes! Did I leave anyone or any label out?
Believer wrote: "The reality is that whether the homosexual community wants to admit it or not a majority of people in our nation do not approve of same-sex marriages/unions at this point in time in the history of our nation."
He is correct. But the children of these voters will not be obsessed about who marries whom. (Call it "backsliding," if you like.)
And African-Americans did vote overwhelmingly against same-sex marriage. They learned bigotry against homosexuals where? In their churches, of course. Obama and his contemporaries have moved beyond this stance. Even Coretta Scott King endorsed equality for gays before she died, a position that would have been very difficult (I expect - but do not know fore sure) for her husband, Dr. King, and his generation.
Does anyone here know how MLK felt about gay rights. I've never read anything about that.
didymus:
You made a wrong statement. You are not a minority. Because of one's inordinant and improper sexual conduct does not make one a minority. It makes one a sinner, whether a homosexual or an adulterer. If you were of something that you had no control over or could not change, then you could be a minority. You chose your lifestyle.
blacksho-
Christianphobic is alive and well. Believer has it right: it's not just the Christians that support prop8, it's across all faiths and ethnicity. I loved what one of my atheist friends said about the gay lifestyle - "it's just wrong, period". He was referring to anatomical and physiological design as he could care less about the spiritual.
Blacksho89,
You said, "Wow! Pretty hateful and-dare I say-Christianophobic of you."
What I said wasn't hateful (maybe it's a little mocking), but I love Phophet... no, really I do. I'm just disciplining him; he needs to grow up a little.
Prophet said, "And yet, this is a democracy. And the majority vote still (should) count. …be we let the majority speak their mind, and the majority said "no"."
Please remember these, your own words, Phophet, when the "Christian" community is no longer the majority. Remember them… when the majority crushes you, and then praise the Lord for the majority's decision in this our democracy. (And don't you dare go to the courts to protect you minority rights on that day, lest you be a hypocrite.)
hlerwin said; "I am confident that at the end of a 4- or 8-year Obama administration, all American ethnic minorities will be more empowered than ever..."
African Americans were empowered enough to vote 80% to 20% IN FAVOR of Prop 8.
didymus said:
Prophet,
Your Jesusiness is just so Jesusy... I stand in awe. Your insight is so... insightful. I'm certain the gay community is grateful for your loving discipline, and deep spiritual mind. They have I'm sure seen your great love for them and are probably repenting of their homosexuality right now as we speak. You are to be congratulated.
Wow! Pretty hateful and-dare I say-Christianophobic of you.
If you are about to put your hand on a hot stove, and I tell you to stop, that you will get burned, I do not do it out of hate, but of concern and of love.
Homosexual behavior, if not repented and covered by the blood of Jesus, will lead to eternal separation from Him. And that will be infinitely more painful than a burned hand. Seek ye now his love, and live eternally with Him.
I can see the movement away from a government "of the people, by the people, and for the people.."
didymus
And yet, this is a democracy. And the majority vote still (should) count. You can be as sarcastic as you want, be we let the majority speak their mind, and the majority said "no".
So now the gay community is going to go woo the judicial system to illegally overturn an amendment. What's next? The first amendment?
Christians by far are not the only people who voted in favor of Prop. #8 and yet as I read the posts from those who appear to have opposed Prop. #8 you'd think it was. I also find it interesting that two of the states who voted against recognizing same-sex marriages/unions went for Obama as opposed to McCain. The reality is that whether the homosexual community wants to admit it or not a majority of people in our nation do not approve of same-sex marriages/unions at this point in time in the history of our nation.
DiaryOfCross mentions, "Did you all hear? Riots are starting all over this. Literally."
<sarcasm>
Why won't they just submit to Christian victory and domination? They should be thanking us and rejoicing over our great love for them.
</sarcasm>
rolln,
(The gay agenda has no interest in anything other than forcing their lifestyle on others)
It is so evident; is it not?
Did you all hear? Riots are starting all over this. Literally.
http://www.ksbw.com/news/17917337/detail.html?rss=mty&psp=news
...they're such good sports :/
Prophet,
Your Jesusiness is just so Jesusy... I stand in awe. Your insight is so... insightful. I'm certain the gay community is grateful for your loving discipline, and deep spiritual mind. They have I'm sure seen your great love for them and are probably repenting of their homosexuality right now as we speak. You are to be congratulated.
didymus,
You don't know much about love. Maybe you weren't displined as a child. I don't know.
I tell my child that he is not allowed to do something because it will hurt him. He thinks I don't love him, when in fact I do. His idea of love (as well as the homosexuals) is that if we love them, we'll let them do whatever they want.
But, since you are not a spiritually minded person, I can see why that's so hard for you to grasp.
The more you watch the downward spiral of moral degredation within the gay community the more you realize how accurately Paul hit the nail on the head in Chapter 1 of Romans.
I think the passage of Prop 8 will come back and bite the churches in the butt. That guy Ron Prentice mentions, "We trust that this decision will be respected by all Californians." I have to wonder when I read this what kind of stuff he's been smoking. There is no way folks who disagree with his kind of Christianity are going to sit down and respectfully "obey" his "Christian" law.
You guys in California had better start campaigning now. Stop celebrating and start raising funds now to fight the counter Proposition that will be put forward two years from now to change the California constitution back, and the several court battles that have already begun (and don't forget about the millions you'll need for the next election after that, four years from now, and the one after that, in six years, and the billions you'll need for the one a mere eight years from now). If you thought the church's business was loving others as Jesus did, well, no longer. It's about stopping gay marriage at all costs.
Interesting how sore the losers of the gay agenda are: They preach tolerance and acceptance, but their actions are just as much a lie as their lifestyle is. I read from worldnetdaily a quote from one gay supporter that reads: ""Burn their f---ing churches to the ground, and then tax the charred timbers". There sure sounds like a lot of hatred coming from the gay supporters. How ironic it would be if they did burn churches down and the hate crime laws they so vehemently supported were used against them.
I agree with two sentiments I read in today's newspaper:
(1)
In Arizona, where same-sex marriage was already against the law, the victory for Proposition 102, which amends the State Constitution, was met with a shrug by some. "I think the country was like, 'Look, you get Obama. Call it a day, and go home,'" said Kyrsten Sinema, a Democratic state representative who led opponents against Proposition 102. "And, frankly, I'll take that, she added.
and
(2)
Today, you can bask in the realization that there are billions of people around the planet who loathed our country last week but are now in awe of its capacity to rise above historic fears.
END QUOTES
I am neither an ethnic minority nor gay, but I am confident that at the end of a 4- or 8-year Obama administration, all American ethnic minorities will be more empowered than ever, and gay people will have the right to marry whomever they wish.
I am a Christian (perhaps not passing the litmus test of many Christian on this Web site), but I know I cannot require all Americans to live by my religion's holy book.
Mike:
First of all I teach her that at home. Second of all they taught the ten commandments in schools before it was taken out. That is something I believe as I believe promiscuity is wrong as well , and I teach my daughter that. I teach my children to love all people but hate the sin their in. why are you on a christian site , if you don't have christian views? I don't teach hate, I teach absolutes and homosexuality is absolute wrong .
I would be vehemently against it, but I wouldn't care if they read a book about Jesus and said Christianity is a good thing, or Islam. I think you can teach children about very real issues in their world without indoctrination, which certainly was not happening here. Children are not being targeted by gay marriage, which was the original lie. Do schools choose to teach about an issue in the world? Yes, but it is not as if the gay community sits down and says OK, how can we make this work?
ONline-
Mike doesn't answer the tough questions. Of course he knows that his lifestyle is a perversion and he's willing to justify it to his grave from what it appears. He doesn't know Christ as his personal Savior therefore his agenda is aligned with Satan and Satan is the Deceiver and Father of Lies.
The gay agenda has no interest in anything other than forcing their lifestyle on others. If they were truly just interested in living their life privately, then so be it. But truth of the matter is: They want everyone to legitimize their lifestyle so their guilty conscience may somehow be appeased.
Mike,
I see that you commented on the fathers supposed sit in but did not comment on the fact that this agenda is targeting small children.
(parents do not need to be notified for books being read to their students)
Is not this another loop hole for proponents not notify parents of what is being taught to their kids; this is deceptive.
Care to answer my other question:
How would you react if your 5 yr old child sat in a class where he/she was taught biblical passages which speak against this lifestyle?
Online, parents do not need to be notified for books being read to their students. The father was given that answer, didn't like it, staged his own private sit in, and was arrested, as any protester would be. He is not a martyr.
Praying, I meant they are naturally interested in learning and in the world around them. As a kindergarten teacher, I can tell you that my children do understand what gay is and already use bad language like f a g when talking about it.
VSE, you're right, marriage is not about legal sex. It is about legal benefits, which civil marriages provide.
Mike,
The video which you referred to as propaganda merely state the facts: 1) these parents were never notified 2) this agenda is targeting young children (kindergarten) which is shameful 3) the father was arrested because the school was not willing to compromise and did not want to listen 4) parents of faith have taught their children the biblical model for marriage and by teaching this material it does confuse children; thus it becomes harmful.
How would you react if your 5 yr old child sat in a class where he/she was taught biblical passages which speak against this lifestyle?
Thank you Jesus Go California and the Body of Christ . His righteous will prevail. amen
Mike my child is 3 years old and is not naturally interested in same sex couples. She is interested in Blues Clues , soccer and candy. Get some kids and then talk.
Boy, the claws come out and the fur fly when the gays don't get their way. Well, cry me a river, build a bridge, and get over it. The people of Cal. have spoken. (also Arizona and several other states.) The majority believe we will not change a sacred institution to appease the devient wishes of a very small, but shrieky, segment of society. You can hold your breath and jump up and down all you want but that's not going to change.
the propoganda machine of those attempting to codify sinful behavior tells its tools to use any means possible to move forward their agenda, including calling people who oppose them names such as bigot, claiming their opponents hate them or fear them. This is what I was referring to when I said it is not hate to tell people something is wrong. Nor is it hate to try to prevent the codification of something that is wrong.
Once again the group that often portrays itself as the victim, successfully oppresses another based on religious beliefs. One of the promises of America was that isn't supposed to happen in America. There are many decent Christians at the level of the individual, but put them in a group, one dare not turn their back to them.
Mike,
Having seen the book King and King I can say that there is no way that book didn't present gay lifestyle in a positive way. What parents are objecting to is that very thing. The teacher isn't just teaching that gay lifestyle exists, they taught that it was OK. Also there is a question as to whether this is age appropriate. I have gay friends, my teenage sons know them. I am against gay marriage. Marriage is not about legal sex with who you want. It is much more than that. That's the part gays don't get.
The issue here is that it was very close and the trend over the last 10 years means that it would be much greater effort and more than 40 million the next time around in 4 years time. The methods used and the TV ads which were very misleading speaks volume of the low path we needed to take to this through.
The Christian community in America will have lost a lot. If you go back to the first crusade, in 1095, the financial cost was great and they had to tell a lie, that you will go the heaven if you do join in the crusade. We lost - our morality and our focus.
Whether gays get married or not, with their small numbers just would not matter. But what we did is in essence put a barrier which may never be broken and they will become our main antagonist. Until today, there is few Christian witness in Arab countries, and the Muslim faith has been a torn our side.
The line is drawn in the sand. It is a line of no return for the church, our faith, and how the Gay community will forever deal with us. It is a sad day, not for the Gay community, but for the church.
Singapore
www.psa91.com
mike22685, what he got arrested for does not change the fact that his 5 year old son was being taught about same-sex couples without his permission. My post was in response to you calling people liars who said kids were being taught about gays which you said was not true.
Each person is responsible for his own choices. But who and what we surround ourselves with affects us, good or bad. Plenty of studies have shown this.
Businesses know that advertisements work, otherwise they would not spend billions trying to convince people they need what the companies are selling. Of COURSE what people read affects them. If what they are exposed to what God calls good, they are more likely to be affected for the good. If they are exposed to what God calls evil, they are more likely to be affected for the bad.
Scripture tells us this same principle (Proverbs 13:20; 1 Corinthians 15:33).
To pretend that what children are exposed to does not harm them or help them is to either lie or ignore the truth. See what I wrote on this just the other day. for links to studies and scripture that show what I am saying:
http://wbmoore.wordpress.com/2008/11/05/what-and-who-you-surround-yourself-with-affects-you/
I suppose you think its hate when a parent tells a child that they are doing something wrong and then tries to explain why its wrong. I suppose you think its hate when someone tells you it is illegal to speed.
You folks sure do like to redefine language.
the campaign to overturn christian imposed hate began this morning.
Mike your wrong, Marriage is not a civil issue, its a religious issue, ever notice that a priest/pastor/rabbi/chaplan/(enter religious leader of choice here) conducts the ceremony. I think gays have the "civil" right to live together, and do whatever together, and even tax breaks by becoming a unuion, al though i disagree with the lifestyle, but the idea of marriage from the beginning has been a religious institution, altering it goes against religious rights and God. Suck it up and bite the bullet.
Mike,
You said;
(Christians spread lies and tried to make this an issue about children (typical scare tactics)
It is disingenuous to say that same sex marriage would not be taught to children; who is really lying?
See; Prop 8 Video by the Family Research Council
http://www.evangelicaloutpost.com/archives/2008/10/prop-8-video-by.html
Savannah, the parents gave consent, so nothing was forced on children who didn't want to hear about it! Reading the King and King book to students happened in MA and that does not harm children, the book simply talks about same sex partners, something children would be naturally curious about. No talk about gay sex, so no need to freak out.
Believer, as I have said before, he wasn't arrested for questioning, he was arrested for refusing to leave the principal's office because he didn't feel the answer she gave him sufficed. The majority does not always rule in this country, and that is why the Supreme Court ruled against this, and I have no doubt when lawsuits are brought up they will rule again. it is unconstitutional, and this issue is rapidly heading to the US courts.
mike22685, the majority decided in California, Arizona, and Florida and they all said no to same-sex marriage!
mike22685, that has already happened in Mass. where a father was arrested for questioning why his 5 year old son was being taught about same-sex marriage without his permission.
"(i.e. children will all be taught about gays...not true!)"
Seriously? A teacher in San Francsico took a first grade class to a fellow teacher's gay marriage. A teacher in California had her kindergardeners sign "pledge cards" for National Ally Week. Have you not heard the stories of teachers reading books about two princes or two princesses? It's flooding the schools.
It may be their own sin to commit, but their sin affects others.
gay marriage is a civil issue actually. If you think its sin, which is a religious term, then it becomes a religious issue. Rather than let the majority decide, you made it necessary to raise millions of dollars to try and sway voters by lies and propaganda (i.e. children will all be taught about gays...not true!) Funny, I thought Christians weren't supposed to lie.
The ACLU knows the proposed lawsuit attacking the Godly proposition just passed in California is a stone loser. They are just seeking publicity to gin up contributions from the gay community. If any court accepted the arguments being put forth against the proposition it would be the end of constitutional government as we know it. Aint gonna happen.
Gay marriage is not a civil rights issue or a love issue...its a sin issue.
You cannot be a true Christian and still support gay marriage ...it is just impossible. You are either in unrepentent sin or you have asked for forgiveness. It is just that clear.
"One lesbian couple, who was the first to be married in Los Angeles County, plans to announce a lawsuit arguing that the proposition is unconstitutional"
Exactly how can a part of the constitution be unconstitutional???
Still, Stop-the-Madness is right and it is far more reaching than just marriage. Obama got elected because he has promised to have the government do the job of the church. We, the church, are to be the welfare system and to take care of people in need. We have not done that for so long that those in need voted based on hope in promises.
The only way to keep our country from going socialist is for the church to rise up and obey.
You know this will be fought in the courts. It is far from over, and what makes me sad is that this was not a matter of right v. wrong, it was who had the most money. Christians spread lies and tried to make this an issue about children (typical scare tactics) rather than about 2 consenting adults in love.
"This is a great day for [straight] marriage," said Prentice.
It's a bad day for basic civil rights.
Whatever you guys said, I just thank majority Californians for voting for the traditional marriage.
(But that is not enough. The professing church has a 50% rate of divorce. 1 in 2 marriages of professing Christians end in divorce even though God HATES divorce)
Amen!
It is a blessing to see believers in my home state rise up in defense of traditional/biblical marriage.
stop and wb, you both are totally 110% on target with regards to condition of the families and couples in our churches and what needs to be done to grow strong healthy families which in turn grows strong healthy churches that are effectively reaching their communities and the world with the Gospel of Christ!
Stop the Madness,
I agree whole-heartedly with your post and will add that as a soon-to-be minister I recognize the importance of the biblical teaching. I do believe there is a slow change occuring that is a turn toward traditional, biblical principle and away from an all-encompassing world view. With that, I don't even believe that it is a conservative/liberal argument of principle but an acceptance of a Jesus principle. His word is clear.
The problem is not with listening to tapes or buying books. The problem is people are not believing and living the word of God.
This is the victory of this year's election season. It's a resounding NO to Judges who rule from the bench. Again, the people said enough is enough of this type of rule. God's people stood up when it counted and prayed fervently. May God have mercy on this great nation. Are those "gay marriages" that occurred prior to the people saying NO valid. They never were. Those few judges that took it upon themselves to overturn the people ought to be removed.