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Society|Sat, Nov. 15 2008 10:03 AM EST

Repeal of Gay Marriage Ban May Appear on 2010 Ballot

By Katherine T. Phan|Christian Post Reporter

California voters may have to face the issue of gay marriage again on the 2010 ballot if the state Supreme Court decides to uphold the passage of Proposition 8.

  • Prop 8
    (Photo: AP Images / Steve Yeater)
    In this file photo, Rosana Mendoza, 14, left, gets a hug from her sister Bianca, 4, before a rally in support of Proposition 8 in Sacramento, Calif., on Monday, Oct. 20, 2008.

Equality California, a gay rights group which ran the "No on 8" campaign, said this week it intends to launch an effort to put a ballot initiative to reverse the gay marriage ban in two years should current legal efforts fail.

"We will go back to the ballot only after we have exhausted our legal avenues and after we have a majority of voters with us," said Geoffrey Kors, the group's executive director, according to The Associated Press.

While the San Francisco-based organization has indicated that it was not currently active in pursuing a repeal effort, one gay rights group said they have already begun an effort to put an initiative reversing Prop. 8 on the 2010 ballot.

A group called Courage Campaign said it is taking lessons from the "Yes on 8" campaign and attempting to build a grassroots network, similar to the network of churches used to support Prop. 8, that would boost the repeal effort.

"The problem was, the other side ran a better media campaign, and had thousands and thousands of people, typically through churches, who they were organizing," the Campaign's founder Rick Jacobs told Capitol Weekly.

As of Friday, the group garnered over 180,000 signatures toward a petition to repeal Prop. 8.

If a repeal effort does appear on the 2010 ballot, it would be the third time Californian voters has considered a ballot initiative concerning gay marriage.

Last week, state voters passed Proposition 8, a constitutional amendment defining marriage as between one man and one woman, 52 to 48 percent. In 2000, 61 percent approved a similar ban on gay marriage, known as Proposition 22, which was opposed by 39 percent of voters.

Following Prop. 8's passage, the National Center for Lesbian Rights, Lambda Legal, and the American Civil Liberties Union filed the suit, Strauss v. Horton, on behalf of several same-sex couples and Equality California.

The lawsuits ask the California Supreme Court to block the measure from taking effect, which would allow gay marriages to continue under the Court's ruling in May.

The suits also challenge the validity of the measure and argues that the measure prevents the courts from protecting fundamental rights. "Any measure that would change the underlying principles of the constitution must first be approved by the legislature before being submitted to the voters," argued Equality California in a press release.

Liberty Counsel, a Christian legal firm, has filed a motion to intervene to defend against the lawsuits. A number of Christian-based groups have also filed amicus briefs arguing against the opponents of Prop. 8.

"The law suit seeking to block Proposition 8 is patently frivolous," said Mathew D. Staver, founder of Liberty Counsel, in a statement. "The people have a right to amend their constitution."

Glen Lavy, senior counsel with the Alliance Defense Fund, said there was "no structural revision to the state constitution" that took place.

"The people have simply restored the definition of marriage that the constitution has always assumed," he stated.

Christians are outraged as thousands of protesters surround Mormon temples and Protestant churches, chanting such words as "Mormon scum" and vandalizing church property and church members' cars. Continue >>

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  • Fri Nov 21, 2008 9:03 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Let us do what the Israelites did at Jericho . Take the city with a shout unto GOD with a voice of triumph. You know if we sought strategies from HIM to get all the gays saved then guess who's going to protest, all those newly saved folks will focus their energies to tear down Satan's Kingdom. Let us pray their eyes opened and their hearts ready to receive their saviour.

  • Thu Nov 20, 2008 2:19 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    "I'm a neurosurgeon"

    My wife is a nurse (CVICU) and knows a few neurosurgeons. At least you have a sense of humor....

    :D

  • Wed Nov 19, 2008 10:52 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    LOL. I'm a neurosurgeon, so I'm not going to justify that sarcasm with a comment.

  • Wed Nov 19, 2008 7:15 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    "gotta go. "

    we all gotta go sometime....

  • Wed Nov 19, 2008 4:17 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    feet,
    Study what the words mean. The word "lust" in that scripture doesn't mean the kind of lust that you're thinking it does. The word lust, as Jesus uses in Matthew 5:28 (which is the type of lust that you're refering to) is "epithumeo", or sometimes used as "epithumia". It's used throughout the New Testament in the context that you're using it.
    But in Romans, the word is "orexis", and is the only time in the entire Bible that it is used. They are two different words, with similar meanings (longing for), but one (epithumeo) seems to focus more on coveting, whereas orexis seems to be more of a longing for.

  • Wed Nov 19, 2008 11:10 am Agree: 3   Disagree: 0

    feet,

    I guess this verse (Romans 1:27) that emphasizes men leaving the natural use of the woman and men with men which scripture declares as an error does not put it all into perspective for you . . .

  • Wed Nov 19, 2008 9:40 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    feet, you're still avoiding the fruit of self-control issue?

  • Wed Nov 19, 2008 9:18 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    The penalty as written in vs 26 is referring to the sin against God's natural orientation for men and women which inturn is a penalty against man's (woman's) own nature.

  • Wed Nov 19, 2008 8:30 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    26Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts......................Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.

    men committed acts motivated by shamebased lust. lust tears down human bonding, fellowship, and the love expressed in 1cor13. shame engenders self loathing and self hatred...............that is their penalty

    consider reading the entire thread before asking any more quesrions.

    gotta go.

  • Wed Nov 19, 2008 8:17 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Ps 81:12
    So I gave them up to their own hearts' lust and let them go after their own stubborn will, that they might follow their own counsels. [Acts 7:42, 43; 14:16; Rom. 1:24, 26.]

    Let us all be in prayer that our nation turns to GOD as in Chronicles and humble ourselves and pray and turn from our ways. Look folks the sickle is coming and there will be a distinct line between the wheat and the tare. Let us pray GOD's mercy and that HIS love touch the hearts of the protestors and open their eyes to the lie. Homosexuality is not what GOD created it is what man created with his lusts. Wake up church and let us man the walls of this nation

  • Tue Nov 18, 2008 10:27 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    feet & Mike,

    Why does this passage (Romans 1:27) refer to this union (men with men) as an ERROR?

  • Tue Nov 18, 2008 10:24 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 2

    How do I know? Because Jesus himself said that marriage is between a man and a woman. Anything outside of that is corrupt.

  • Tue Nov 18, 2008 10:23 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    feet,
    The love that homosexuals share are the same love that incest couples share. As well as polygamists.

    All are twisted, perverted versions of a true love.

  • Tue Nov 18, 2008 10:21 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Mike,
    Again, you show you are not a Christian. You can flag me, call me a liar, call it libel....it's still the truth. And I'm tired of giving you the benefit of the doubt, when there really is no doubt. You are simply a man who can recite the scriptures, but doesn't know the Author of those scriptures and what His view is.

  • Tue Nov 18, 2008 10:10 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    feet, I see you totally avoided the fruit of self-control issue!!!

  • Tue Nov 18, 2008 8:37 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Okay...all you nice Christians out there can just slap me....it's alright, I'll understand.

  • Tue Nov 18, 2008 8:30 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    I'm sorry...whenever I see a post from Feet my mind just goes, yeah, yeah, blah, blah, blah...over and over again.

    Here's the cut and paste version; "yeah, yeah, blah, blah, blah...over and over again.

    From an earlier post: yeah, yeah, blah, blah blah...over and over again.

    GET IT?

  • Tue Nov 18, 2008 8:28 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    "because the bonded committed relationships of both orientations exude the same fruit of the spirit(gal5)"

    Once again you throw the greek aside and use limited American English. The greek has 4 words for love. Your example uses two completely different words. The fruits are from 'agape' love which is not the word for love within a marriage. You are dealing with apples and oranges.

  • Tue Nov 18, 2008 8:24 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    JUST OPINION NO SCRIPTURE TO SUPPORT SO OPINION IS NOT FROM THE MIND OF CHRIST

    still no annotation for your 330pm response!!!!!!!!

  • Tue Nov 18, 2008 8:14 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    26Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts......................Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.

    men committed acts motivated by shamebased lust. lust tears down human bonding, fellowship, and the love expressed in 1cor13. shame engenders self loathing and self hatred...............that is their penalty

  • Tue Nov 18, 2008 6:42 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    feet, you cite the fruit of the Spirit quite a bit, one of those fruits is that of self-control. Since a majority of homosexual couples are not legally married at this point in time, if they profess to be saved and engage in sexual intimacy they are violating one of the fruits of the Spirit, namely that of self-control so in essence they are willfully living in sin. On top of that since you can cite no options in the Word of God where God declares that anything other than one man and one woman united as one in God's sight for life is His original and only design for marriage and that sexual intimacy is reserved for the marriage bed of one man and one woman united as one in the sight of God for life through marriage then a homosexual to be truly a Christian would be committed to sexual abstinence for life unless they marry someone of the opposite sex and if they willfully refuse to do that they are at best a carnal Christian or even not a Christian at all.

  • Tue Nov 18, 2008 5:41 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 0

    feet,
    "the fruit of the spirit of bonded homosexual relationships compared to bonded heterosexual relationships, their capacity is the same."

    No. They ar different fruits. Heterosexual love is one designed perfectly by God. Homosexuality love is one perverted by Satan. They are both fruit, it's just one is rotten...

  • Tue Nov 18, 2008 5:04 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    feet,

    Why does this passage (Romans 1:27) refer to this union (men with men) as an ERROR?

  • Tue Nov 18, 2008 4:46 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Well, actually feet,
    I haven't confused anything. God made them male and female, gender, and goes further to naturally orient them.

  • Tue Nov 18, 2008 4:31 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    JUST OPINION NO SCRIPTURE TO SUPPORT SO OPINION IS NOT FROM THE MIND OF CHRIST

    whatever this means. please, consider doing the same with your 11/18 3:30pm answer.

  • Tue Nov 18, 2008 4:25 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    forgiven

    you tiptoe around and thru my comments like a person attempting to strengthen his postion.

    you confuse orientation with gender.

  • Tue Nov 18, 2008 3:47 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    "the fruit of the spirit of bonded homosexual relationships compared to bonded heterosexual relationships, their capacity is the same".

    JUST OPINION NO SCRIPTURE TO SUPPORT SO OPINION IS NOT FROM THE MIND OF CHRIST.

  • Tue Nov 18, 2008 3:42 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    it doesnt matter the source of homosexuality, then our theology would be determined by science. instead it is determined thru the acknowledgement of spirit.

    the fruit of the spirit of bonded homosexual relationships compared to bonded heterosexual relationships, their capacity is the same.

  • Tue Nov 18, 2008 3:31 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Thanks for the warning, believer!

  • Tue Nov 18, 2008 3:30 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    feet wrote: "first of all you have to "have something " before you can abandon it."

    Well, from birth you did "have something", God created you male therefore that which was abandoned was female.

    feet wrote: "are you saying it is natural for a person to have a one flesh relationship with someone they have no desire to be close to or be intimate with."

    God word reveals natural was abandoned for the unnatural. Having the one flesh relationship with the female is natural. Having no desire for the female is what is unnatural.

    feet wrote: "where is the "easy yoke and light burden" of christ in this? or is this yet another scripture that does not apply to the issue of homosexuality."

    God reveals that if we obey His Word and live according to His will for our lives we are free from the yoke and burden sin weighs us down with.

    Feet wrote: "are you saying that involvement in orgies leads to homosexuality"

    God reveals that there are different forms sexual immorality takes on. Sexual immorality by folks that engage in orgies is one. Then there also is sexual morality by folks that engage in sexual relations with thise of the same sex.

    Feet wrote: "apart from that statement being totally untrue, what percentage of the 12 million homosexuals in this country do think has ever participated in an orgy?"

    You are right the above statement you made was totally untrue. God is calling all orgies performed be heterosexuals (which does not exclude that homosexuals have not participated in orgies) an immoral sexual act.

    Feet copied and wrote;"The thrid, "God gave them over" (vs 28) to a depraved mind, which also means disapproved.
    that is what i keep asking you. what was that they specifically did for god to give them over to homosexuality?"

    God reveals that man/woman did not do "for" God in lines the result of being given over to their own mind of god.

    Feet Wrote: "one would assume that because of the difficulty of explaining how this scripture refers to homosexuality. romans1 must be one of the not so "clear" places that refers to it."

    God is very clear in Romans 1 that men and women who participate in sexual relations with one another of the same sex, which by definition is homosexuality, is exchanging that which is His natural design for sexual relations for that which is unnatural for sexual relations.

  • Tue Nov 18, 2008 3:28 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Romans 13:9
    The commandments, "Do not commit adultery," "Do not murder," "Do not steal," "Do not covet," and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this one rule: "Love your neighbor as yourself."

    Galatians 5:14
    The entire law is summed up in a single command: "Love your neighbor as yourself."

    please rewrite the scriptures in a way that will explain your understanding.

  • Tue Nov 18, 2008 3:20 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. 11For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man's spirit within him? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. 12We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us. 13This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words.[c] 14The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15The spiritual man makes judgments about all things, but he himself is not subject to any man's judgment:
    16"For who has known the mind of the Lord
    that he may instruct him?"[d] But we have the mind of Christ.

    absolutely!!!!

    that being the case perhaps there will also be the acknowledgement that ALL JUDGEMENT AND AUTHORITY has been given to christ. it is by the spirit of his covenant that we are led in our worship of the father.

  • Tue Nov 18, 2008 3:12 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    feet, loving ones neighbor is not the summation of the law it is only a part of it, the primary part being wholeheartedly loving God. And Christ clearly states that if we do truly love God we will keep/obey His commands/teachings.

  • Tue Nov 18, 2008 2:51 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    believer

    if loving ones neighbor as oneself is the summation of the law under the new covenant, then each law is of the essence of that summation. all the laws carry the spirit of the second commandment.

  • Tue Nov 18, 2008 2:49 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    IS HE SCOFFER OR IS HE SEEKER?

    I'm new here to posting on the Christian Post but I have read these posts for over a year and have kept silent as I feel the true seeker will find his answers in the pages of Scripture. I have been dismayed by a few posters who seem to revel in deliberate ignorance or indulge in sheer mockery of God's Standards and yet want to say that they "love" God.

    I've cheered on the faithful Christian posters who have patiently explained over and over again the expressed Mind of Christ only to be ignored and dismissed by those who just want to be controversial or insist their thoughts and ways are above God's own. I believe that the Word of God will not return void but I am mindful that I should never just debate the things of God with the godless scoffer. The things of God are pearls that I should not cast them out to be trampled underfoot by 'pigs'.

    That said, I do believe in holding up the standards of God in this godless society as I witness the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled, therefore I humbly submit the following:

    Answers to Feet

    From another thread, Feet says:"your claim is that anyone interprets scripture wrongly does not love god. they obeyed what they believed were god's commands. they were wrong."

    BIBLICAL ANSWER: in Romans 10:2-5 in part, "they have a ZEAL for God but not according to KNOWLEDGE."
    ..being IGNORANT of God's Righteousness and seeking to establish their OWN righteousness have NOT SUBMITTED to Righteousness of God."

    This seems to be a clear explanation that just because someone has a ZEAL for God it doesn't necessarily follow that they LOVE GOD.

  • Tue Nov 18, 2008 2:48 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Regarding Feet's many references to the INTERPRETATION of Scripture, try this one out:

    BIBLICAL ANSWER: Found in 2Peter 1:19-21 "And so we have the prophetic word confirmed, which you DO WELL TO HEED as a light that shines in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts; knowing this first, that NO PROPHESY OF SCRIPTURE IS OF ANY PRIVATE INTERPRETATION, for prophecy never came by the WILL OF MAN, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit."

    So, here's a clear cut rebuttal for anyone who thinks there are many 'interpretations' of the Word of God.

    PRAGMATIC ANSWER: SINCERITY is not the LITMUS test for right standing with God and His Truth.

    Just because I believe I can FLY doesn't negate the LAW OF GRAVITY should I be foolish enough to jump from a tall building!

  • Tue Nov 18, 2008 2:48 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Continued...


    I've seen many posts where Feet states Christians that we cannot know the "MIND OF GOD". That somehow Bible believing Christians cannot know God's thoughts! But I have yet to see any posts from Christians that the Mind of Christ IS knowable and in fact, true Christians have the Mind of Christ!

    BIBLICAL ANSWER: 1COR 2:14-16 reads "But the NATURAL man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are FOOLISHNESS to him; nor can he know them, because they are SPIRITUALLY DICERNED. But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is rightly judged by no one. For who has known the mind of the LORD that he may instruct Him? BUT WE HAVE THE MIND OF CHRIST.

    Another obstacle Feet has erected in various posts over time is a question of Law versus Grace. However a very clear answer to how Christ fulfills the law is extensively written in the book of Romans, especially in chapters 7 and 8, which I quote in part:

    "Those who live according to the sinful nature have their MINDS SET on what that NATURE desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. The mind of SINFUL MAN IS DEATH, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace; the sinful mind is HOSTILE to God. It does not SUBMIT to God's law, nor can it do so. Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God.
    You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, IF the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ."

  • Tue Nov 18, 2008 2:47 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    And Lastly....
    Another rabbit trail many Homosexuals want to run down is this absurdity that "they are born this way" and more preposterously, since God made them this way they must therefore be true to (indulge) their NATURE. I think we will all agree that it is in the NATURE of Homosexuals to desire these acts, thus making them NATURAL men. But what does the above Scriptures say of the NATURAL man?

    He is dead in sin, he cannot discern, he cannot receive the Spirit of God because it is foolishness to him, he has his mind set on his nature, he is hostile to God and lastly he does not belong to Christ.

    There is simply no reconciliation in the clear reading of Scripture that makes Homosexual 'love' an option for the Christian, no matter what one's interpretation of LOVE is.

    IF Feet is truly a seeker of Truth and a Lover of God, I'm wondering why he continues to post here the same questions and old arguments in the face of all the great Biblical Counsel that has been shared here by the faithful Christians who have tirelessly wrestled to help Feet come to the knowledge of Truth.

    AND Brothers, please correct me if I seem unloving but please answer; at what point in our conversations here does correcting errant beliefs become casting pearls? When does our counsel become foolish debate?

    I just do not like to see Christians having to defend useless arguments with the Precious Word of God!

  • Tue Nov 18, 2008 2:43 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    forgiven, be careful you are about to enter the world of feet where biblical standards are thrown to the wind under the guise of sinful living is okay as long as it doesn't violate the second part of the Great Commandment and with total disregard to the first part of the Great Commandment or any other of God's commands or teachings in His Word.

  • Tue Nov 18, 2008 2:25 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    one would assume that because of the difficulty of explaining how this scripture refers to homosexuality. romans1 must be one of the not so "clear" places that refers to it.

  • Tue Nov 18, 2008 2:20 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    The thrid, "God gave them over" (vs 28) to a depraved mind, which also means disapproved.

    that is what i keep asking you. what was that they specifically did for god to give them over to homosexuality?

  • Tue Nov 18, 2008 2:16 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Vs 24 refers to the sexual ritual/orgies vs 25 that exchanged the True worship of God for the (lie) worship of pagan gods and goddesses. This was done through sexual immoraltiy ~ orgies.

    which flows into another sexual immoral act

    thiss makes no sense.

    are you saying that involvement in orgies leads to homosexuality..................like smoking pot leads to smoking crack.

    apart from that statement being totally untrue, what percentage of the 12 million homosexuals in this country do think has ever participated in an orgy?

  • Tue Nov 18, 2008 2:09 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    "The second part is about trading God's natural sexual relations for sexual relations of something else (unnatural). It states clearly the "natural" function was abandoned."

    first of all you have to "have something " before you can abandon it. where is the abandonment of never having any desire to have a one flesh relationship with anyone of the opposite sex, but instead the same sex............................an attraction that has existed from ones earliest sexual memories
    again.....................what is natural. to have a one flesh relationship with another in a shared commited life.

    are you saying it is natural for a person to have a one flesh relationship with someone they have no desire to be close to or be intimate with.

    is it natural for someone who has never had any attraction to the opposite sex, but instead the same sex, attempt to bond with a person of the opposite sex.

    is standing on this burden of who they should bond with, loving ones neighbor as oneself.

    where is the "easy yoke and light burden" of christ in this? or is this yet another scripture that does not apply to the issue of homosexuality.

    even though we have died to the law and are now led by the spirit, you are saying there is yet a law about what is natural that we are to be led by. and therefore, this law trumps the 2nd commandment and "easy yoke and light burden" of christ.

    it would be one thing if this attraction fostered relationships that had not one scintilla of the fruit of the spirit. but the reverse is true. these relationships exude the fruit of the spirit in the same way that heterosexual one flesh relationships do.

  • Tue Nov 18, 2008 1:44 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Vs 24 refers to the sexual ritual/orgies vs 25 that exchanged the True worship of God for the (lie) worship of pagan gods and goddesses. This was done through sexual immoraltiy ~ orgies.

    which flows into another sexual immoral act

    vs 26 which refers to the exchanging of God's natural design (the sexual relation between one man and one woman) for the unnatural design made by men (women) (the sexual relation between two women as well as (vs 27) the sexual relation between two men).

  • Tue Nov 18, 2008 1:24 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    24Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.


    again...................................... what lie is exchange for what truth and how was what entity worshipped and served so that some were given over to homosexuality?

  • Tue Nov 18, 2008 1:08 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    The first part is about trading God (real) for a god (false/lie) (vs 24&25).

    The second part is about trading God's natural sexual relations for sexual relations of something else (unnatural). It states clearly the "natural" function was abandoned.

    The thrid, "God gave them over" (vs 28) to a depraved mind, which also means disapproved.

    The correlation between idoltry and sexual immorality are closely linked in that people worship god as they see fit and have sexual relations as they see fit instead of adhering to how God says only He is to be worshipped and to God's natural sexual relational design for men and women.

  • Tue Nov 18, 2008 1:06 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    mike22685, the Bible never uses the word Trinity, but it is clearly spoken to in both the Old and New Testament alike and the same is true with the sinfulness of the sexual practices of homosexuality.

  • Tue Nov 18, 2008 11:03 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Mike,

    Again, those passages in Leviticus have nothing to do with same sex unions; in Romans 1:27, it specifically says . . . And likewise also the men, LEAVING the NATURAL USE of the WOMAN, burned in their lust ONE TOWARD ANOTHER; MEN with MEN working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their ERROR which was meet.

    What does men with men mean? Why does this passage refer to this union as an ERROR?

  • Tue Nov 18, 2008 11:03 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    No, the NT doesn't use the label 'homosexual' but I believe the VERY DEFINITION is found in Romans 1:26,27,...for the honest seeker of Truth."

    how is that possible?

    first of all, in romans 1, how was what entity was worshipped and served and in what way, so that certain persons were given over to homosexuality?

    second, homosexuals dont have women. and regardless, why would the women (in roman society,women were property and the only rights they had, were thru the men that ownership over them.) do the same things that the men did. was this suppose to be a a family affair.


    third,in romans, the sexual interaction was motivated by shamebased lust(niv). shamebased lust has no relationship to homosexual bonding which is of the same spirit as heterosexual bonding. that is, the bonding is done out of mutual love, respect, devotion, affection, and trust for a shared committed life together.

    where there is lust, the only commitment there is, is to the lust............. to satiate the craving. the people involved are merely instruments with which to satiate that lust. there is no interpersonnal commitment.

    the lust is shame based. anything filled with shame engenders self loathing and self hatred. compared to heterosexuals, homosexuals have never received the characterization "those self haters".

    how does self hatred and self loathing have any resemblance to the international gay pride movement that is a proactive expression of self love and personal pride, so much so that it is enthusiastically supported by the majority of the worldwide heterosexual community.

    committed homosexual couples provide loving, nurturing homes for raising children equal to those of married heterosexual couples and are on record of providing havens for abandoned, rejected children from heterosexual unions. the sexual intimacy expressed in the relationship enhances, not diminishes the loving nurturing environment.

    could you say the same of a household that was filled with shamebased lust?

    and lastly if the incestial rape of second samuel, and the adulterous murder of one samuel dont condemn heterosexuality, why would the shame based same sex relations of romans condemn homosexuality?.

  • Tue Nov 18, 2008 10:37 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    Mike22685 wrote: "The new testament never calls it homosexuality because it is referring to Pagan rituals and orgies, neither of which my partner and I practice, so I think we're good!"

    Although, I agree that certain rituals/orgies were going on, it is my understanding these passages were showing that v. 24 is referring to the sexual immorality in pagan ritual/orgies but then in v. 26 & 27 it refers sexual immorality in ordinary life.

    Again, my understanding is that 'God gave them over" first to these sexual rituals/orgies that were taken place in a manner to worship and encourage the gods and goddesses to do the same in order to receive blessing of gain from them. They exchanged God for a "lie" (gods and goddesses).

    Now, in the next vs. Paul writes for a second time "God gave them over", this time to sexual immorality in ordinary life. Paul states men and women "exchanged" God's nature for sexual relations with each other.

    The first exchange, the truth for a lie, is followed by another - the upsetting of the normal course of nature in sexual relations.

    Mike22685, I must admit that I am thankful to you for the challenges you have presented, allowing myself and others to critically investigate God's Word. Unfortunately, I have not been convinced that any relation other than a man and a woman is in God's design and plan for His children.

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