BOSTON – Gay rights supporters waving rainbow colors marched, chanted and danced in cities coast to coast Saturday to protest the vote that banned gay marriage in California and to urge supporters not to quit the fight for the right to wed.
Crowds gathered near public buildings in cities large and small, including Boston, San Francisco, Chicago and Fargo, to vent their frustrations, celebrate gay relationships and renew calls for change.
Supporters of traditional marriage said the rallies may have generated publicity but ultimately made no difference.
"They had everything in the world going for them this year, and they couldn't win," said Frank Schubert, co-manager of the Yes on 8 campaign in California. "I don't think they're going to be any more successful in 2010 or 2012."
Protests following the vote on Proposition 8 in California, which defined marriage as between a man and a woman, have sometimes been angry and even violent, and demonstrators have targeted faiths that supported the ban, including the Mormon church.
The protests Saturday were widely reported to be peaceful. Signs cast the fight for gay marriage as the new civil rights movement, including one that read "Gay is the new black."
But anger over the ban and its backers was evident at the protests.
One sign in Chicago, where several thousand people gathered, read: "Catholic Fascists Stay Out of Politics."
In San Francisco, demonstrators took shots at some religious groups that supported the ban, including a sign aimed at the Mormon church and its abandoned practice of polygamy that read: "You have three wives; I want one husband."
In Salt Lake City, where demonstrators gathered just blocks from the headquarters of the Mormon church, one sign pictured the city's temple with a line adapted from former Republican vice president candidate Sarah Palin: "I can see discrimination from my house."
Connecticut, which began same-sex weddings this past week, and Massachusetts are the only two states that allow gay marriage. The other 48 states do not, and 30 of them have taken the extra step of approving constitutional amendments. A few states allow civil unions or domestic partnerships that grant some rights of marriage.
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Contributing to this report were Associated Press writers Rupa Shenoy in Chicago, Adam Goldman in New York, JoAnn Loviglio in Philadelphia, Sarah Brumfield in Baltimore, Linda Ashton in Salt Lake City, Blake Nicholson in Bismarck, N.D., Tom Verdin in Sacramento, Calif., and Kamala Lane in Washington.
Because of the media's all pervasive and very persuasive message that they are showing the truth to the people. They have successfully convinced many that sin is merely an antiquated concept whose time has gratefully passed and been exposed as a fraud.
True indeed, Nick....
Without the bigger picture then why would someone continue in 27 years of Bible study and completely miss the forest for the trees?
Why be a Christian and choose to disobey God? Who's is foolin' who?
Better to be a buddist, hindu, new ager or satanist for that matter or all the good it is to say we study the Bible, just remain unsubmitted to the Truth.
God won't compromise His expressed Word, why not just trash the 'study' and move on? Why continue to look for something within the pages of scripture that is not there, yet refute the clear sense of Scripture when it is there?
I guess it just takes all kinds to make the world go 'round.
DelightnTheLord, Reading the Bible and not submitting to its authority on some level is equivalent to proofreading a calculus text for grammar mistakes. Those who do not submit to the Bible's authority never apprehend God's bigger picture.
Then, that begs the question as to why Feet would want to post here and argue with believers over this issue, over and over again. Surely, he doesn't believe anyone here would be 'won over' to his perspective.
Just as you said, Prophet, you wouldn't understand calculus by reading...then why would you persist? You wouldn't; I think my mind would shut down completely.
But that hasn't happened to Feet, he still persists as he said he has studied for 27 years!
So, would this be a conscience issue as in it might bother Feet that he is gay? And claims the God of the Bible at the same time?
I see that God is purifying His Church at this time, could Feet be hearing a call to purity and fighting hard not to hear and come to repentance? If that is so, and it seems reasonable to me, then I would think Feet should honestly look at his resitance and ask himself how long will God strive with a man before giving him over to a depraved mind?
prophet, at times it seems like feet speaks calculus to me when it comes to some of his responses and like you I ain't got a clue about what he's talking about, but then again maybe he doesn't either and he knows I don't speak calculus.
I could read the entire calculus textbook, and still not understand a single thing about it. It seems that feet reads the Bible, but doesn't necessarily study it.
Feet,
I have a very difficult time believing you studied the Bible as you have claimed in earlier posts. I wonder why you even bother take the time. There is nothing in it that you believe and you can come up with no Scripture to support your hazy view of things.
Why do you want to be a Christian and study the Word if you come away with absolutely no light and no understanding of the Message?
feet,
The (culture) and the (self) of which you contatnly rely upon can never omit what has been written in Gods Word.
"at one this entire country supported ethnic slavery, and no rights for women and children. why do you constantly look to the culture and antiquity for an afformation of what is the truth?"
And thank God that good, Biblically based Christians intervened and helped change that.
What's your point?
feet, get real, if anyone looks to the culture to dictate right and wrong it is you my friend, as I said in another post it does not matter what direction the culture goes when it comes to same-sex marriage/union since God's Word is perfectly clear where God stands on the issue of both marriage and sexual intimacy. One man and one woman united as one in the sight of God has and will always be God's original and only design for marriage and sexual intimacy will always be reserved for the marriage bed of one man and one woman united as one in the sight of God for life through marriage.
feet, sexual intimacy is reserved for the marriage bed, considering very few states allow either same-sex marriages or unions,
at one this entire country supported ethnic slavery, and no rights for women and children. why do you constantly look to the culture and antiquity for an afformation of what is the truth?
so simple even a sinner could do it....
you know, that would make a great commercial.
God makes things so simple a sinner can do it....
He said in his word that He HATES divorce. So do I. I've seen what it can do to children. Why didn't he stop my 1st wife? It takes away from our responsibility. God is not co-dependent 'rescuing' us from ourselves. He tells us what we need to know and expects us to take His word for it. The Bible says in many ways in many situations that sex is reserved for the 'marriage bed' between a man and a woman. That is the Biblical standard.
The gospels are packed with examples of obeying. One parable talks about the two sons. One said he would do what he was told and didn't. One said he wasn't going to do it and ended up doing it. The point is...the one who did what he was told was the 'good' son. The Bible is clear in everything we need to know. Anything else is counterfeit.
good thing about homosexuality is that it keeps the dumb people from reproducing.
believer,
That's right. Homosexuals may be alright in the government's eyes, but there is even a higher power that thinks otherwise.
feet, by the way even if same-sex marriage/union does become the law of the land, sexual intimacy between "married" homosexual couples will still be a sin, since God's original and only design for marriage is one man and one woman united as one in the sight of God for life.
feet, sexual intimacy is reserved for the marriage bed, considering very few states allow either same-sex marriages or unions, if homosexual couples are having sexual intimacy even from a secular perspective they are violating God's design for sexual intimacy, therefore they are living in sin and specifically violating one of the fruits of the Holy Spirit, self-control.
Feet, we are required by the Holy Spirit to Surrender All.
This means when we ask Him to come into us we must give Him access to all the closets, cabinets and cubby-holes.
If we don't allow Him access to us, He will never voilate us to get in. If we don't allow Him access to sealed off rooms we will always be hungry for Him.
You hunger after God because you are thirsty.
All areas in our lives we do not surrender will always ache for His Touch. We hold the doors closed with all our mights when we engage our Self will to keep Him out. We already know what we want, need and so we don't ask Him to shine His light there, we already know how we want to fill those needs; generally with sin. If I let God in here it will hurt and feel bad, we avoid pain at all costs. But to know even further that the opening of this door; the removal of this Idol will feel like the demise of our very selves. We hold with tenacity because a strong sense of survival in the NATURAL man.
Survival of Self. Not death, not consecrated on the Cross, not offered up to God...
Our loving Father, Abba. He has a better plan or you and He promises not to foresake us while we allow Him to clean out the closets and remove our blind Spots.
One way or the other you will lay your sexuality at the foot of the cross and surrender it.
God has been calling you and all of us to walk Pure bfore Him. You are no different, rejoice if He is calling you.
Delight in Him and He will grant you the desires of your heart. Psalm 37:4.
Delight thyself also in the LORD; and he shall give thee the desires of thine heart.
You have good Brothers here that care about you, keep talking to us.
Feet quotes: "but witness thru the holy spirit, thru the one who lives in us easily detects this"
Yes, the Holy Spirit does detect false spirits and will alert us AS LONG AS WE ARE LISTENING and actively SEEING.
In the case of a blind spot that results from:
a. An IDOL b. and/ or believing false doctorine.
We may not hear the Alert as in the potential that even the elect could become decieved.
Satan masquarades as an "angle of light" for a purpose; to decieve.
The Holy Spirit will never violate our wills; He will never work over past what we allow.
If we do not allow Him to open a cabinet in the house when He comes to dwell within our tent, He is a great Guest, He never snoops into places He hasn't already been invited into by act of the human will.
Who did you say you have your organized bible studies with?
I hope you have a good short trip, but please do check back on this page.
"Ever heard of a 'knock-off'? Counterfeits? "
sure there can be knock offs for the spirit............yes, satan can give the mere appearance of it, but witness thru the holy spirit, thru the one who lives in us easily detects this.
how can satan, who is of a different spirit duplicate the spirit? how can he duplicate the essence of the spirit?
surely our witness as believers thru the spirit goes deeper than mere appearance.
see you, gotta take a short trip
Hi Feet,
You've quoted this;"Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them".
Recognize who? A Brother? Do our Brother's here on this post disagree with each other over the meaning of Romans 1?
The only one who claims Christianity and lives like a gay man online here and now, is you.
Brother, we are all trying to recognize you, we just have a problem with the gay fruit being against what God is against in both OT/NT.
The fruit you seek to view is fruit you want to see within your relationship with your beloved. In your posts below you mentioned your sequence of steps you take to discern scripture and they all sound good. But the struggle still persists.
Where I think you get off balance is by the weight of Experience you credit your senses with even when they run counter to God's expressed Word. We all do this to a degree. You may only see that your activities and feelings as being good because they make you FEEL GOOD.
Feeling good must equal good fruit in your view. This is a priority problem; nowhere in Scripture are we ever to go with what feels right...in fact the right way to walk is usually one that goes against our inclinations to feel good. Feeling good most times means the flesh feels good and is never an indication of our Spiritual fruit.
Fruit of the Spirit such as the Fruit of Self Control must be practiced especially in areas that disagrees with the expressed Will Of God.
Bottom line, you may have a big Idol in your life and as you admit a few posts ago, it is entirely possible you are being decieved.
"no one has been able to explain how the words of the verses of scripture(His Word) say that homosexuality is a sin?"
Really? I think we worked it to death. What words are you missing?
"does that mean the fruit of the holy spirit is the same as the fruit of the spirit of satan?"
Ever heard of a 'knock-off'? Counterfeits? If the fruit doesn't come from the Spirit then it isn't the fruit of the Spirit. The Bible talks about even the elect being deceived. Once we lose the absolute standards then many things can 'pass' as the real deal. Still, when you put them up against the absolutes in the Bible as written then they no longer pass.
This has been a major point of what I've been saying. This whole 'my interpretation' stuff doesn't get it. 55 means 55. There is no interpretation involved. The problem comes with one's pride in wanting to be right when the Bible clearly says one is wrong. You either accept the Bible as written or you play by your own rules to one degree or another.
Romans 1 and the scripture in Corinthians is very explicit about homosexuality being a sin. To not see that would required a willful action on a person's part to ignore the fact.
feet,
Jesus will NEVER say, or tell you to do something, contrary to His Word. So if somethine/someone is telling you to do something unscriptural, you can rest assured it's of the devil.
"a 'spirit" or one who lives in you , { let's say it's JESUS} tells you something contrary to HIS word"
no one has been able to explain how the words of the verses of scripture(His Word) say that homosexuality is a sin?
please read the thread of this discussion and explain?
feet, even if living that lifestyle leads them to violate the fruit of self-control?
Matthew 7:16
By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles?
Matthew 7:20
Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.
Matthew 12:33
"Make a tree good and its fruit will be good, or make a tree bad and its fruit will be bad, for a tree is recognized by its fruit.
Luke 6:44
Each tree is recognized by its own fruit. People do not pick figs from thornbushes, or grapes from briers.
if the fruit of a gay marriage, that is two gay people who hold christ as their lord and savior, that their marital relationship exudes the fruit of the holy spirit, the same way as any believing heterosexual married couple,that is, that their sexual intimacy enhances rather than diminishes that fruit.............does that mean the fruit of the holy spirit is the same as the fruit of the spirit of satan?
If a 'spirit" or one who lives in you , { let's say it's JESUS} tells you something contrary to HIS word then I would say it isn't from HIM. Same sex marriage is an abomination to HIM. GOD does not lie or change, so if a "spirit" is telling you it's ok for someone to live that way, you should test that spirit. A man lusting for another man is no different than someone lusting for another's spouse. It is sin and if you struggle with that then your pastor's or accountability team should rally around you and pray you through it and get to the root cause of it. How come seeds come from the fruit that produce it right , so how come marriage isn't of the same seed GOD initially produced. One man + one woman = Real marriage = children = generations.
DP & Prophet: Thank you for your support; I appreciate it.
"If your post doesn't contain offensive word"
I didn't even see them. Still, even though those two are on the opposite sides of the issues many times they don't post stuff worthy of flagging. What is this...if you can't fight it - flag it?
Yeah, like cramming for your test as you're walking to your class. LOL
remember in HIGH SCHOOL if I wasn't ready for an exam..............
I DONT THINK YOU ARE ALONE
ifeelfine,
I agree with you. If your post doesn't contain offensive word, or derogatory remarks aimed at anyone, I see no reason why someone would want to flag you. I apologize to you on behalf of whoever is doing that.
There are some real cowards on this site - what I said was not the least bit offensive - I guess what I have been saying is true - it certainly struck a nerve. So who flagged me?
feet, that's it because your post totally avoided the issue of self-control completely with regards to the fact it is a Fruit of the Holy Spirit and your claim that something is a sin when it opposes a Fruit of the Holy Spirit and unmarried homosexuals having sexual intimacy does just that with regards to self-control. I remember in high school if I wasn't ready for an exam I would hope I got essay questions since I'd simply write away in hopes of making the teacher think I knew what I was talking about and hopefully get a good grade on the test and that's what you do when you either don't have an answer or realize your answer is totally contrary to the Word of God.
"Would whoever flagged feet and ifeelfine please let us know what they said that caused you to feel the need to flag them, I was hoping to hear a response to my posts to them so I could respond in turn."
THIS IS IT?????
feet, Al Jolson and Fred Astaire couldn't hold a candle to your tap dancing ability, when all else fails just start tap dancing and blowing smoke to avoid and confuse the people who are holding ones feet to the fire of God's truths.
Feet wrote: "anything is possible."
Thanks for your honesty.
The Holy Word definitely tells us to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling.
I am concerned for you, though. Continue to fear and trembling, feet.
anything is possible.
1 thessalonians 5:20 test everything, keep the good.
i have three tests.
(1) thru the reasoning of the scripture, under the understanding that scripture is inerrant and all scripture is god breathed. and that my understanding is supported by all of scripture.
(2) that my understanding is affirmed by what i witness thru the eyes of my heart thru the holy spirit and the one who lives in me. this means that all witnessing has to be done in fellowship.
(3) that my understanding is supported thru what i acknowledge thru living .that god has made.
it is my understanding that each believer is called to own, be responsible for, what he truly reasons in his own mind as the truth.
this is also true for what he witnesses in fellowship in their heart thru the spirit and the one who lives in him and also for what he acknowledges that god has made.
on this site i find very little of the second. like there are a whole lot of believers who distrustful of what they see, thru their own hearts, thru fellowship, thru the holy spirit, thru the one who lives in them.
feet, do you believe satan deceives? Satan deceived Eve in the garden. He had her believe what God said was not the truth as it appears and that He was holding out on her.
Is it possible satan is deceiving you as well? Could satan be having you believe what God has said is not the truth as it appears and that God could not possibly be holding out homosexual "love" on you?
Serious question, try not to get mad.
"feet, you use the Fruit of the Holy Spirit to support your view that homosexuality and same-sex marriage are permitted by God. One of the Fruits of the Holy Spirit is self-control. But if a homosexual is having sexual intimacy with another homosexual that would be sinning against the Fruit of self-control since sexual intimacy is reserved for the marriage bed and in all but about 5 states from even a civil law perspective same-sex marriages/unions are not allowed. So are you willing to rebuke those homosexuals who profess to be Christians who are sinning against God by sinning against the Fruit of self-control?"
its interesting that someone would bring up popular referendum as a mandate from god, when we know the percentages of church goers. of course god could use what is not of him to do his will.
why would we credit human understanding with manifesting the essence of the spirit, when the truth is the opposite. it is what is witnessed thru the eyes of the heart thru the holy spirit what is of the spirit that leads us in our understanding of scripture.
what is witnessed, is that heterosexual and homosexual committed married couples (although not recognized by the state homosexual believing couples do marry.) their sexual intimacy in both cases equally enhances the fruit of the spirit in their relationship
it is a fact that marriage counselors as part of their counseling of marital couples . regardless if the counselors are laity or clergy, both find it important to determine the frequency and satisfaction of sexual initimacy. because it is considered important indication of the health of the marriage,
this is true of homosexual as well as heterosexual couples.
CONTINUED
CONTINUED
creditation of one orientation , while at the same time denegating the other comes from belief rather than actual witness.
if one believes the sky is yellow does that make it anything other than blue, or if he believes something is of satan does that make it of satan.........no! belief requires the pronoun i, and has nothing to with what is real. it merely indicates what is in the mind of the believer. to add one gets their understanding from scripture does not change one scintilla what is actually real.
what is not about self control in having a commited shared life with another believer based on mutual respect, love, trust, devotion, and affection. does respect stop being respect,. does love stop being love commitment stop being commitment................etc merely because its about a same sex couple rather than an opposite sex couple.
maybe according to belief............................but never according to witness........ a witness of when walking in the light...........which means a witneess thru fellowship.
" if we walk in the light as he is in light we have fellowship with one another........." do you think that there is love without fellowship. do think that when jesus said love your enemies meant love with out fellowship. if we have fellowship with our enemies...............then surely we have fellowship with believing brothers we disagree with...
i made some changes .........maybe it is appropriate now
are you ready to copy it?
here it is again. you better copy it if you intend to respond to it.
Would whoever flagged feet and ifeelfine please let us know what they said that caused you to feel the need to flag them, I was hoping to hear a response to my posts to them so I could respond in turn.
Let us do what the Israelites did at Jericho . Take the city with a shout unto GOD with a voice of triumph. You know if we sought strategies from HIM to get all the gays saved then guess who's going to protest, all those newly saved folks will focus their energies to tear down Satan's Kingdom. Let us pray their eyes opened and their hearts ready to receive their saviour.
ifeelfine, in language even a five year old could understand could you please tell me what in the world are you talking about, because if your goal was to confuse me congratulations you did it. Then maybe it could be you have no answer to a very simple question and rather than being mature enough to admit it you respond with "nanny, nanny, boo, boo" remarks.
feet, you use the Fruit of the Holy Spirit to support your view that homosexuality and same-sex marriage are permitted by God. One of the Fruits of the Holy Spirit is self-control. But if a homosexual is having sexual intimacy with another homosexual that would be sinning against the Fruit of self-control since sexual intimacy is reserved for the marriage bed and in all but about 5 states from even a civil law perspective same-sex marriages/unions are not allowed. So are you willing to rebuke those homosexuals who profess to be Christians who are sinning against God by sinning against the Fruit of self-control?
See, Feelfine,
That's one of the things that is so harmful about this sin, if you care to know. It isolates.
It limits one's ability to have common ground with other people not like them.
What does my sister care about my family, kids?
She doesn't care or relate so she doesn't choose to become involved.
She not only misses out,family members also miss out.
No Feelfine, I don't believe in cutting off communication with sinners, non christian sinners.
I do cut off fellowship with'professing Christians who choose to continue in their sin as Paul instructed us to do in 1 Cor.
Feelfine
Please enough with the silly questions: believer: Ok, first show me the passage in the Bible that says using a computer is ok.
What is the point other than just to confuse the issue.
My sister's lifestyle will not corrupt me so no need to push her out of my life.
On the otherhand a sinning and professing Christian may cause me to stumble for two reasons:
Sin is called leaven in the Bible, it acts like yeast a it spreads and grows; if I hang with my Bro and he is sinning I will be complicit with him in his sin if I do not admonish him, he will think I approve.
Secondly, at some point I'm going to think in the flesh, hey so and so gets to hold on to his sin and lightening hasn't struck...I can hold on to my pet sins, too.
See how quickly and directly I am willing to answer your questions? Here's one for you:
My line of inquiry about God's goodness to you, Feet here was suggested by not only your comment about being burdened (as a gay) but as well a couple of your past posts that seem to suggest you believe the error Paul spoke about in Rom 1:26b to be shame and guilt.
The context in those past posts wasn't clear to me so I was just wondering how God is helping you with your burden, shame and guilt.
What benefits you in being be considered a Christian.
Delight: Your sister's gay? Why did she "choose" to cut off fellowship with you? Did you tell her that you couldn't be around her if she were to continue to engage in this "lifestyle?"
believer: Ok, first show me the passage in the Bible that says using a computer is ok.
"in organized study "
I'm also interested in what type of study. After all, if the study is not sound you will not learn sound doctrine. This has been a problem throughout the Bible. This is why Paul spoke so strongly about sound doctrine and correcting anyone who believed otherwise.
'organized study'
Who do you study with? A Metro church? Please explain.
Also, when I asked you about the goodness of God, I wasn't asking about that in a generic form to brushed away by you at the end of your lasest post.
Rather, I asked you personally how do you experience the goodness of God.
In what ways is God good to you in your life.
Am awaiting clear answer to simple question, thanks Feet.
i have been studying scripture since 1987. each year on my own and in organized study throughout each year.
my responses are concise but they are also annotated. anyone who is sincerely interested even if they dont understand my explanation they question me through the verses annotated with.
Feet said: "i have received no questions about what i have written?"
I have in the past but it ends in me needing even more questions answered. I don't like to nit-pick because my grammar/vocabulary/spelling is bad enough but yours is really hard to follow.
I mean, I can't even follow what you try to say sometimes at all. You go in and out of scripture not quoting the whole thing or continuing on with opinion instead. Everything you type is lower case and usually runon. Sometimes your sentences are mere fragments.
I'm sorry but I usually just ignore your comments because of the lack of organization. You say you have a 40 year niece (so I assume you to be older) but you type on here like a 14 year old IRC chatter, except without the leet speak.
So until you can write a concise paragraph I'll leave my questions for other posters.
"there are amillion reasons for having sex with someone"
There is only one reason to have sex with someone. It is to show love which is only found between one man and one woman in a relationship based on a permenant commitment. Any other reason is short-lived lust. Lust=no permenant commitment to each other and God (by His rules). Love=permenant commitment to God and to a spouse based on His design.
i have no idea what you are asking about self contriol.
anyone who has made a sincere attempt to fellowship with and in christ knows the goodness of god.
i have received no questions about what i have written?
feet, when I was little and walking through large snows in Upstate New York others had a hard time following my footsteps because I walked like a duck as a result of being knocked-kneed. No one is tip-toeing through your comments, the problem is many of us are having a hardtime following you, plus you are totally evading the fruit of self-control issue.
Accuse me of thinking too much....
You made an interesting statement that claims that I do not know "the christ in them".
Feet, you do understand there is a distinction between "Christs"?
One being True and all others being False.
"like you were walking thru a minefield."
Hmmm...your comments just may be a minefield.
Just musing...before I move on to actual computer work but I will check in from time to time.
Would really like to know your view on the goodness of God.
See, I'm being "colloquial". Ah, never mind, feelfine might know what I mean.
Feet, can you tell me about the Goodness of God?
OOOPs! I did it again (Gee, I sound like Britney Spears!)
My earlier post re the bulls in the China Shop post was for Feelfine, not you, Feet.
Glad to see you have popped in for a little conversation.
Well, Feet that's a shame.
I didn't cause my sister's pain and I do not add to it.
I understand how families become fractured and withold communication from one another understandably over pain that is nursed and not dealt with.
But your post spoke of something other than that; my inability to see your side as I've not experienced it.
Can we turn it around, and may I ask; have you experienced the goodness of God?
My sister is gay...she chooses to cut off fellowship with me. Not only with me but with the same stroke, her niece and nephew and his new born son.
what you are talking about is the individuals ability to process or deal with pain.
my niece who is in her early 40's has not spoken to her mother, my sister, in 20 years over dealing with this same issue. she has 4 children, whom my sister has never even seen.
Interestingly enough I lived with my sister and her girlfriend for a time back in the '80's.
What I saw was a lot of three-way-drama about who possessed whom.
I spoke with a lot of damaged women coming from prostitution who have decided to hate men. Most did not start life off "gay"...only coming to it after being hurt in this world and find being with woman to be 'easier'.
They are unjustified in their hatred toward men...they placed themselves in that degraded environment to make money. they came away with handfuls of ashes.
They cling to women (the one's I have talked to) because woman were the only other option.
Don't be so pious in your homosexuality as been so hard to understand, with so many burdens.
What do homosexuals really know about burdens.
Most gays don't have to raise children and studies have indicated they have higher incomes because of that.
Get off your 'Woe is me, I am gay...how I must suffer to be 'true' to myself."
Feet,
Such an exclusive club...homosexuality.
You are incorrect in your assumption that since I haven't 'experienced' homosexuality that I should have no knowledge of it.
My sister is gay...she chooses to cut off fellowship with me. Not only with me but with the same stroke, her niece and nephew and his new born son.
Why? Not because anyone of us haranging her about her lifestyle....rather she has no common ground and no heart to establish some.
It's her loss but she doesn't see it that way. It's also a loss to my children, I love my sister and enjoy her immensely.
She is so identified as being "gay" she is unable to find common ground, herself.
How are we 'tip-toe-ing through and around your comments?
I see us as more like blulls in a China shop.
Your ideas are the china.
Let's see, will put this deck chair here...is it getting a little damp?
"homosexuals have never been characterized compared heterosexuals as being more lustful".
your response to this is because you have no intimate dealings with homosexuals, in fact more than likely you have denied any fellowship with them because of your theology. if this is true than more than likely you credit this as a good thing.
you have never carried their burdens, walked in their shoes or known the christ in them thru which they were made or if a believer known them thru the christ that lives in them.
a valid comparison would be "among my friends", "among my neighbors", "among my coworkers", "among my relatives"............" i found this to be true"
like i said before all of you tip toe thru and around my comments like you were walking thru a minefield.
ifeelfine, the only thing I can figure out is that I stated two non-benefits to being homosexual and was waiting on you to share with us the positive things about being homosexual. I also asked you to cite biblical passages that support same-sex marriage. So tell me what am I missing here?
From Feelfine, "I'm a Christian with a strong faith but am most definitely not a "Bible believin' Christian" in the colloquial sense of the term".
I believe you would have been most accurate in your self assessment here, Feelfine had you left off the phrase "in the colloquial sense of the term."
Pardon my ignorance, I had to look up that word, "colloquial".
So you don't converse on the Bible...but according to an earlier post you claim, 'it's your bible', too.
What do you USE your Bible for?
What is 'strong' about your faith? Please indulge me.
I see feelfine is still rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic.
"homosexuals have never been characterized compared heterosexuals as being more lustful".
I don't know about that one...
There may have been no published or peer reviewed studies to support that either way.
But heterosexuals have never indulged themselves in San Fransico type Bath Houses.
If it hadn't been for AIDs closing down most of them, they'd still be in high gear.
Nothing like the threat of death to curb someome's desire for lust.
believer: Go back and read what I wrote and then read what you wrote - you'll know what I'm talking about.
feet, you're still avoiding the fruit of self-control issue!
Are the christians protesting?
there are amillion reasons for having sex with someone.........depression,one likes the person,someone feels very sexual, strong emotiomnal feelings for someone, etc or the bonding reasons of desiring to be close and intimate to someone one is emotionally and sexually attracted to............ lust is merely one reason.
here again homosexuals have never been characterized compared heterosexuals as being more lustful.
"So, no, I'm not going to 'prove a negative.' "
Actually, most of the pro-gay marriage arguements that have been posted here are based on the assumption of a proven negative. Believer was just returning the favor.
For example...Jesus never used the words "homosexuality is sin" therefore it must be OK was a popular pro-gay arguement not to long ago.
ifeelfine, plus I asked you if same-sex marriage/union became the law of the land what would the new definition for marriage be or would there even be one.
ifeelfine, what in the world are you talking about? We only asked you to support your own statement about the good part of homosexuality.
believer: Have you ever seen the movie "A Few Good Men" with Jack Nicholson, Tom Cruise, Kevin Bacon and company? Remember the line where Tom Cruise's character asks about where in the marine handbook it talks about going to the mess hall? Well, that is what you are asking about. The Bible doesn't mention computers, cars, and pretty much every modern convenience we have. So, no, I'm not going to "prove a negative."
"DP: Thank you for your honesty."
No problem. Our pastor once said that when people are committed to staying in the boat they are way more willing to do some of the bailing! We have given so much a pass here in the USA that it's difficult to tell from a cultural standpoint what is right and what is wrong. Again, "and everyone did what was right in their own eyes...." It make the great point that they turned their vision away from God's eyes and relied on their own. There in is the problem.
Where are the pro-homosexual leaders saying that violating places of religion and disturbing the peace is wrong? Where is outrage by the hate crime law people?
Where is homeland security...?
"help align society even closer to God's law".
Boy, I wish we could, Forgiven.
If we could just move professing Christians closer to God's law, i.e., God's way of seeing things, that would certainly go a long way in helping th Kingdom!
Gotta run now...
I'll check back tomorrow.
Has anyone heard from Feet?
Remember him today in your prayers.
ifeelfine, divorce already is against God's law, but not wanting to come off sarcastic, if it comes down to it and government needed, and I use needed loosely, I would support legislation on divorce in the attempts to help align society even closer to God's law.
Crazy stuff in the news right now (at least on FOX) covering all the gays protesting the failure to shove their agenda down our throats!
They sure are a colorful bunch...some boys look very pretty in colorful dresses....out there in the street in full regalia hurtling insults at the common folk.
Maybe some of the more sophisticated and styleconcious one's are reserving their little black dress (every girl shoud have one) for evening protests.
This is just plain ugy.
Tolerance, it turns out, is a ONE-WAY street.
I know, me too. Everybody gets to be right except for God.
ifeelfine, let me tell you at least two non-benefits of homosexuality and same-sex marriage, they cannot without outside intervention pro-create and secondly they cannot engage in sexual intimacy without willfully violating God's design for sexual intimacy which is reserved for the marriage bed of one man and one women united as one in the sight of God through marriage for life. Plus if same-sex marriage does indeed become the law of the land, what will be the new definition of marriage and in fact can there be one?
Oh Supporters of Homosexuality
Gays, Lesbians and those who support them must come to their moral and wise senses to sense the Hellfire on the day pf Judgement. Natural Death is the only deterrence left to eradicate abominations and Gays do not fight death but fight innocence of human to get timely reprieve against The-God.
ï± In fact, male homosexuals, as low as their numbers are, perpetrate up to half of all child molestations.
ï± Gay teachers alone commit up to 80 per cent of all sexual assaults on pupils.
ï± Homosexuality has no moral utility
ï± Homosexuality is a history of brim-stoned people of the past
Oh Homosexuals: "Thou shall reform otherwise Hell Fire on the day of judgment shall be your destiny".
ï± Homosexuality would litter the history and future generation of Canada
Not many things irk me, but when someone lives in sin, and then smugly says that God condones it...well it really bothers me.
Okay, as long as you're sure....you might want to have a little conversation with God about that, "I don't believe same sex marriage is necessarily sinful" thing though.
He may disagree with you. He made the design. He may have some input.
Then you'll need to decide what to do with THAT.
Can you tell me what benefits a person to be 'same-sex married'....why is that's good and defendable?
ifeelfine, please cite the scriptures that support same-sex marriage, since you claim to believe the truths taught in God's Word?
believer: I'ev answered your question a ton of times - no, I don't believe same sex marriage is necessarily sinful.
delight: I know exactly who is directing my life . . . and it's not me (looks up). :)
You know, I'm hearing a busy signal right now with Feelfine.
I think before he can decide what he truly believes to be true in social matters, he'll have to wrestle a bit with who has has decided is directing his life.
God or himself.
ifeelfine, please explain what you mean by keeping the Bible in context since you have accused me of not doing that and then tell us what is the good part of homosexuality?
The Day is short and darkness is falling....
I'm told the "Fields are ripe for harvest".
Which field?
Well, to start with...how about tilling up that soil in our own hearts...
Perhaps it should start with the Church?
ifeelfine, "logical inconsistencies" just what are those?
ifeelfine, I don't claim to know your heart only your tactics, plus you're still avoiding the issue of whether or not you believe same-sex marriage would be seen as sin in the sight of God. Just about all of us have honestly answered you with regards to making divorce illegal so why are you not willing to come clean with us?
Can we just get off the issues and on to the Topic?
"I do my very best"
Feelfine in all honesty as a hypocrite I just got admit I don't always do my best...at anything. Thank God it's not about my efforts.
Where is the Holy Spirit in our self efforts?
We might just be blocking His access to our lives.
You know the Comforter also comes with that "Mind of Christ" that can seem so..well...confining. We have to do all that self examining stuff to see if we are in the faith and that conviction we sometimes feel is kinda yucky and well, God, could you please just stand over in that corner...the ol' flesh just wants to have a beer and visit the lazy boy sofa.
Gosh, God, can't all that just wait....I'm so stressed, did you see the news? Whew, sure is crazy out there in that fallen world, wars, rumors of wars...my gosh, pestulence and famine. I just totally need a break from it all.
Ifeelfine, I'd love for divorce to be illegal accept in instances of adultry. I think divorce is just another thing adding to our country's laziness and inability to reap the consequences of our decisions.
I believe that if parents were to work through their problems their children would see that and benefit greatly. Instead they give up, get divorces, get their children out of any and all kinds of trouble, and make excuses for their mistakes.
Counseling would do them some good instead of divorce. And most of all reading your bible together. A marriage founded on Christ will always endeur.
forgivensinner: And what about divorce? Other than in instances of adultry, are you in favor of making it illegal?
I am sorry, ifeelfine, I disagree. God never once reveals homosexual acts are acceptable in any light.
DP: Thank you for your honesty.
As for making divorce illegal...I have not problem with that. It was the fact that it was legal that limited my options.
Just FYI there...
Paul addressed homosexuality in the Book of Romans because it WAS going on in their area.
"then does this mean that the early churches were raised thru the leading of the spirit and without little or no understanding of the law.
without this does this mean the church was without justice, and corrupted by sin?"
So, you have read Corinthians! The Jews were hung up on the law. Corinth had a problem with the fact there is an absolute right and wrong. The American concept that what is wrong for you can be OK for me is nothing original or new. In fact, it's been around for thousands of years. "and everyone did what was right in their own eyes...."
Paul was quite familiar with the law having been raised with it. In fact, there are those who believe he was the young man who held the coats of the men who stoned Stephen. It was because of his understanding of the law that grace could change him so completely. One must understand what he has been freed from to understand what he has been freed to....
The problem in Corinth was the people who did what they wanted believing it was being 'lead by the Spirit' when in fact they were deceived. The Spirit NEVER says sin is OK. NEVER. This was what Paul wrote quite a bit about in those two letters.
believer: That is just not the case - you come in start spewing things and then think you know my heart? I don't think so. I typically get tired of trying to point out the logical inconsistancies of many of the Christians on this site.
delight: You have the presupposition that all homosexuality is wrong - there are differing hermenuetics out there that claim not all of it is bad - just the promiscuous self indulgent kind. I agree with that. So for you to claim that it "hurts the heart of God" you have to start before that. I do my very best to take th Bible in context (which is what Believer claims as well but doesn't show it) and the passages you think refer to all homosexuality don't refer to it.
Think about how wrong the slaveholders were 150 years ago - they thought God was on their side and indeed in reading the Bible it certainly seems to be the case but no one believes that anymore.
delight, I sensed that and I to appreciate totally where you are coming from as well, but let me caution you that at times when it appears ifeelfine has painted himself into the proverbial corner he tends to disappear and show up later at another site with the same posts. He also tends to leach on to the coat tails of others, normally liberal Christians at best and in many cases non-believers and the views that they are promoting.
HURTS the Heart of God
"HARMS" the cause of Christ.
Still with me?
No HARM???
Feelfine, the Christian?
Ambassador to Christ here in this world...OR
Lover of the world?
Decide this day...choose life or choose death, Brother Feelfine.
Just for kicks guys google the words "mass parent over school gay" and just see how many stories pop up!
There's even a video interviewing the parents protesting their young child education...you can see the grief in their eyes for having legally have no say without going to court and trying to be heard.
They look so voilated.
Just to beat a dead horse here I find myself wanting to correct a misconception of what this whole Prop 8 thing was all about.
Feelfine has stated "you are for legislating against one "sin" that harms no one".
Had this 'legislation' not been approved by the state of CA your school aged children will have to endure a new curriculum...yes indeedy.
Your child will now have to learn in taxpayer supported public schools, starting in Kindergarten, that same sex marriage is equal to traditional marriage. And what's fun about this little side benefit for the Gay Agenda is that you as a parent have no option to withdraw your child from this curriculum...in fact you will not even be informed.
"Hurts no one?"
It's happening in Mass and will probably be drafted into public school curriculum in Conn.as soon as they sharpen their pencils. We may not be able to stop this progession but that doesn't mean we are to lay down and give up.
We, as Christians are not called to change the world only to stand up for God's standards whenever we see them voilated.
When Feelfine will you stop conforming to this world and stand up for God?
Hey Feet, I just came across this:
Romans 3:31
"Well then, if we emphasize faith, does this mean that we can forget about the law? Of course not! In fact, only when we have faith do we truly fulfill the law."
In other words, we are not required to submit to the law, yes, but if we truely love God we will follow the law in order to be holy like He is. (Leviticus 19:2)
It will not hurt your chances of getting into heaven by ignoring the laws. (1 Corinthians 3:15) It will, however, further your relationship with God if you do. It will make you a better, more rightous person.
James 2:26
"Just as the body is dead without breath, so also faith is dead without good works."
Great point Forgiven, I hadn't thought of that particular situation but it's a great example of how we as fallen beings get priorities out of whack!
Did anyone notice, someone flagged my prayer of late last night. Hmmm... must be that driveby flagger...he has nothing here to share but he sure has an opinion. At least he's reading these boards, maybe he can come away with something useful...that surely my intent by posting here.
Preach it Brother Delight!
Delight wrote: "An Idol is simply anything we place between ourselves and our love for God."
As I was reading, I was reminded of Mary and Martha. Jesus was in thier home and Martha was busy doing what is consider good, preparing food and the such most likely, but Jesus says to Martha b/c Mary was at His feet and Martha was "doing all the work", Mary has chosen what is better. Martha was doing good work, but Mary had chosen to be with Him and that was better.
Hey Shuck,
God's word is never off subject. I really like the book of Romans because the simplicity of the gospel is right there in chapters 6,7 and 8.
My saving verse is Romans 8:28-30. "And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to His purpose.
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
Then, I was rather fond of John 3:16...I saw it on a sign at a basketball game and just had to look it up. It was the first time I cracked open a Bible. Of course, God was drawing me at that time, otherwise I probably would have overlooked it.
It took me awhile before I was fond of 1 John, mainly because I had some real issues with what I thought of Christians.
It was like "oh, yuck, I get to spend an eternity with THEM?"
Being the process that it was, God lead me through...I was two years into my walk that I finally realized I had to obey God. I was very stiff-necked.
Let's just put the whole "gay issue" aside for a moment. Let us stop harping on all the Scriptures condeming homosexuality because by now that must sound like fingernails on a chalkboard to our friend, Feet.
Let look instead at Idols that keep us from fellowship with God and devotion to God...remember He is a jealous God and He loves us so much that He doesn't want us to continue in sin because sin hurts us.
I think when we think of the term 'Idol' we think of carved images we make to bow down to and worship. You probably don't have many carved idols in your home.
You may have an Idol of the heart and sometimes these Idols look very noble to us; they can be good things; even good works can become an idol when we begin to take pride in them.
An Idol is simply anything we place between ourselves and our love for God. It could be a person we love very much and many times it is. This may be the case in Feet's situation.
It's my thought that some Idols are more 'spiritually charged' than others and harder to let go of and to surrender to God. In the case of holding onto something that God has called an abomination may be one such idol. Satan so hates God and His creation that he will do all he can to make sure he destroys us and it's surely a bonus for him if at the same time he can rub salt into the wound that God hurts over; the thing that HE has called an abomination or one of the 7 deadly sins...lust.
The removal of an Idol in our lives comes from first acknowledging that we have an Idol. We pray and confess before God...sometimes this is a process we need to do over and over again until we become broken over our sin. God wants us to surrender all; the cross before us, the world behind us and it is HIS will that we confess it to Him, it is His Work to heal us from it, He will help us to overcome if we place our faith in His ability (not our own) to do this.
More on how this is done in a practical way later...if you are interested.
Oh, Believer, I wasn't addressing that post to you but to feelfine whenever he gets a chance to read it.
I can see very clearly that you love your brothers!
This is a little off topic but Delight, you wouldn't happen to be reading 1 John would you? You sure seem to refer to it a lot.
Or is it just a favorite of yours? Me personally, I like Romans and 1 Peter. :D
delight, and I should add that without the love and grace of God working both in me and through me it would be impossible for me or any other Christian to have and give God's agape love to one another as well as God's enemies. I heard a preacher say that God does not see those who consider themselves His enemies as His enemies, my prayer is that God will give me that same ability with regards to those who see themselves as enemies of God or God as their enemy.
delight, I totally agree with your post, but please note I didn't say I didn't love my brothers and sisters in Christ, but at times it is truly difficult. And you cited some of the reasons for me personally that makes it difficult.
Loving our brother must come before loving our enemies because it is so important to God that we love our brother....God's love is perfected in that.
In 1 John we are admonished to love our brother, not as Cain did but love one another as as Co-Heirs in Christ. In fact, God has said that we do not have the love of God if we do not love our brother; He does not say that about our enimies.
In fact, if we do not love our brother we walk in darkness and do not abide in the love of Christ. You do not want to walk in darkness, you must find some way to quit finding contempt for your brother and obey what Christ has commanded of us so strongly in 1 John. It won't come from our brothers changing their behavior; it must come from your own heart.
Please don't take so much pride in being an "open" Christian because you miss the mark in trying to please the world. In fact 1 John speaks to that very issue, do not love the world. It may be a book of the Bible you may want to re-aquaint yourself with.
Being 'open' and tolerant of sin is not what God has told us to do. How can you as a proffessing Christian fulfill the Great Commission if you tolerate sin in others? I'm not saying you've got to get all up in someone's face about their sin, rather you must pray for that person to be released from the bondage of their sin...we need to love them that much to intercede, not condone or ignore that sin. Sometimes God will lead us to speak to our brother about a sin leading to death but never before we manifest the love for our brother by prayer.
Think on that for a time, then I would like to get back to you about the damage you are doing here on these message boards when you refuse to stand for God and judge and hold your brothers in contempt in a sarcastic and hateful way. If you can stand it.
ifeelfine, I find it much easier to love an enemy than I do a brother at times. I have much more patience with non-Christians who come to these sites than for the lukewarm wishy-washy Christians who do.
ifeelfine, plus I noticed you have completely avoided my question to you with regards to same-sex marriage/union being a sin in the sight of God. That is of course if you believe divorce is sin in the sight of God?
ifeelfine, plus once again God said He would never use a global flood again, but then again you don't believe He used that in the first place.
ifeelfine, I know of few if any "Bible Believing" Christians who take everything in the Bible literally, but I do know many if not most who believe that in its original manuscripts the Bible is the God-breathed, inerrant, plenary Word of God, the Bible is literally the Word of God.
delight: Thank you for the response. I certainly didn't say (and didn't even mean to imply if that is the case) that I am not sometimes hypocritical and I definitely sin as much as or more than anyone else. But when you are for legislating against one "sin" (in quotations because I think only certain instances of it are sinful) that harms no one but not for legislating against another one that actually harms other people (I'm talking about divorce now - especially if there are children involved) then that strikes me (and many others I know) as more than a little hypocritical.
And I believe the mark of a true Christian is how he loves his enemies - loving a brother is easy - loving an enemy, not so much. BTW: I don't believe we are enemies, I believe we are brothers in Christ with differing viewpoints.
One more thing. Marriage as constituted by GOD in the begininng is between a man and a woman hence being fruitful and multiplying. It was about the generations back then as it is now. Gays can not procreate at all. WHich if GOD is a creator and we are made in HIS image , that should tell you ok , then this is not the LORD. It is man's fleshly choice to be gay because he was given over to his lusts, the same as an alchoholic, adulterer , pedophile etc. Let us not become a nation that reflects Psalm 81:12
So I gave them up to their own hearts' lust and let them go after their own stubborn will, that they might follow their own counsels. [Acts 7:42, 43; 14:16; Rom. 1:24, 26.]
wow I guess I got a question then , if the Word of GOD isn't GOD breathed , and there is no way to be a bible believing christian...then ok , that means every messanic prophecy that had to be fulfilled through Christ isn't literal , then that would mean we are all in a world of hurt eh? ....So to some degree you would have to believe the word is the word and it is literal because HE literally had to do all those things i.e Isaiah 52 or 53 and Isaiah 9. (Being born of a virgin, son of David , etc.) why are we arguing if it is true for if it is not then there is no christianity. Stop spreading division and stop being open to the lies of the enemy he seeks to steal kill and to destroy and even cause us to eat each other up (which is like cancer..cancer cells eat the body right) ...Let us love
So goodnight everyone, I'm going to bed.
Thanks for communicating and thinking of God today.
May God renew us in our rest, both bodies and minds.
In Jesus Mighty Name. Amen.
Okay, Feet, I so agree...then if the WORD is God Breathed by an all powerful God (you believe that, right?)
He can uphold all things, right?
Then why would He place upon this Earth a letter telling us all about HIMSELF and HIS PLAN and he really wants us to read it. You with me so far?
Then Why oh why would this letter need to be interpreted and if the interpretation was different from individual to individual what would be the point of God even giving us such a letter?
Is He not Powerful enough to write such a letter, wanting us to read it and then preserve it so that you, Feet and me Delight can read and understand the message.
But there may be another thing in the way of your ability to truly understand HIS message.
It would be a stronghold of some type, a blind spot.
Think on that one during your prayertime.
There's your 'biblical context', feelfine.
i am convince of the inerrancy of scripture, all scripture being god breathed.
Feelfine,
I probably am very weak on my constitutional knowledge...but I'm just a pilgrim here so I don't take these earthly concerns to heart.
You know, I know all about hypocritical Christians and I ain't gonna tell you I'm never one.
HOWEVER You miss it BIGTIME if you don't LOVE them REGARDLESS of there less "OPEN" values.
The mark of a true Christian is HOW HE LOVES HIS BROTHER!
Don't make me get out my Bible...you know where to find it, try 1 John.
You have no sin Feelfine? Not a hypocrite either...then Gods says you are lying if you say you have no sin. Go and look...it's right around that 1 John area.
Okay Feet, God's got me up here posting tonight as He had most of today and yesterday, too.
So, something must be up.
and I'm not even a poster. Hmmm. Prayers please.
I suppose I have been waiting for you.
Since I've been so clear on my LITERAL COMMONSENSE "intrepretation" of Scripture I think it may be best for me to follow the Master's approach to spiritual inquiry by asking questions;
You really do have a good grasp of spiritual concepts, Feet, but I wonder why you cannot understand the LITERAL SENSE of the written WORD just as it appears today.
Is it that you don't think much of the validity or trustworthiness of the Scripture OR do you think God's trying to fool you somehow by writing in an esoteric form that you cannot intrepret?
Answer this one, then we can proceed.
The vote is in. Its time to be a good sport,obey the law and stop protesting. Notice the difference ..no one is protesting that Obama won the election.
delight: I am neither a closeted Christian nor a closeted gay man. I am a very open Christian and an open heterosexual man with a wife a young son and another on the way (we think).
If you would have read my response to believer a few posts above the comment I made about the CA wildfires, you would have seen that I was being sarcastic. God said He wouldn't do that kind of thing us again and I believe Him.
I'm afraid your knowledge of the Constitution is pretty weak. Nowhere in it is marriage defined - so there was no reason to shore it up.
Some of the questions (not all but some) I ask aren't meant to state what I specifically believe but to point out the hypocrisy of some of the so-called "obvious Christians."
I'm a Christian with a strong faith but am most definitely not a "Bible believin' Christian" in the colloquial sense of the term. I've found most of the so-called "Bible believin' Christians" to be big ol' hypocrites. And I don't mean to insult you but you're coming across the same way. Those folks that claim to be "Bible believin'" like to say they take the Bible literally, but I have yet to see one that does. Every Christian puts the Bible in context of today - just look at slavery, women's rights, children's issues, and the list goes on.
right.......... it had been put in their minds and written their hearts, thru the holy spirit in their faith in christ.
but you confuse what the holy spirit put within them with your interpretation of scripture. an interpretation which you appear to be unable to explain.
NO, silly feet...it just means that the Corintians didn't need the LAW to tell them homosexuality was wrong.
The Spirit of God told them that homosexuality was wrong!
Hey, you, yourself agreed he was right with that statement. I'm just turning it the other way.
You know, I think they all had the mind of Christ and were in one accord.
Corinth wasn't in Israel and may not have known the law. He simply stated it was immoral the same way he stated men with men and women with women is immoral in Romans.
you are right.
then does this mean that the early churches were raised thru the leading of the spirit and without little or no understanding of the law.
without this does this mean the church was without justice, and corrupted by sin?
Bringing it back to ifeelfine72...mainly so he will answer Believer's question, if he comes back. Seeing as what he has said in these Posts is getting closer attention.
Here's another from him to me that if he was a Christian would cause us to wonder at least over the wording here:
"delight: then why legislate against same-sex marriage?"
I'll answer that...no one legislated a new law against anything...merely shoring up precise language of the original intent of the original Constitution (while we still have one).
Considering feelfine's concern over 'legislating' against gay marriage would it be wrong to assume perhaps that feelfine is gay...he just hasn't come right out and said so?
Be ye closet Christian or be ye gay?
ifeelfine, let me ask you a question I asked you before but you never responded to. All of us who believe same-sex marriage is a willful violation of the Word of God also believe that divorce is a sin, your posts seem to indicate that you believe that also. So that being said does that also mean that you think same-sex marriages or unions are a sin in the sight of God?
Prop 8 simply established (at least for the time being) the intent of what our forefathers decreed.
It is not a new law.
"Has everyone seen the wildfires that are destroying California? It's obviously God's punishment for this bigoted law."
"I am a Christian - it's my Bible too..."
Upon review of the Posts, I find these two apparently opposing ideas from ifeelfine72.
Now, I'm just curious since feelfine took umbrage at his thought I alluded he was gay.
Do you seriously believe that the success of Prop 8 to be responsible for the fires as a divine judgement from God?
Really...and you claim to be a bible believing Christian? Ah, c'mon...you're pulling my leg? Right?
Prop 8 simply established what the Constitution guaranteed and assumed marriage to be between one man one woman. Coming to that conclusion was pretty easy back then since at the time it was written there were no marauding Gay Pride thugs and vandalism by Gays against little old ladies who voted for 8.
Surely, had gays been a problemn then, our forefathers would've made sure that marriage was spelled out if they could have looked way into the future and could see how far away from our moorings we become since their time.
Oh and feelfine....
here was my answer to you earlier regarding making illegal divorce, I said:
"It is my firm belief that both abortion and divorce cannot be legislated via Government.
Both issues are a heart issue and remains there no matter what the Government deems appropriate."
You must have missed it.
To ifeelfine72:
This from feelfine thinking I have insinuated he is gay....I don't remember a post in which I have alluded to your sexuality (nor could I find one after reviewing) as we have not shared much communication.
The reason I have implied Feet is gay is because he stands so firmly on it.
Soooo, feelfine is a Christian? May I respectfully ask that if so, why does it seem you are debating the issues in sarcastic opposition to the obvious Christians on this Post?
Again, my apologies if I have mixed both you and feet into a post somewhere, I will be sure to keep the F's and E's straight.
So, are you gay?
Believer, God bless you! About the rabbit trails...must we always follow?
These trails are so TEDIOUS that I find reading these Posts on the subject of the attending CP artical is a chore and gets off subject.
Folks having a good exchange will be interupted by a disjointed, out-of-the-blue comment about the Law or volumes of cut and paste Scripture quotes that he doesn't understand. His desire is to confuse and water down some very important issues.
I don't mind an honest debate, I just get tired of reading the same old HASH. My thought is; if we don't entertain these rather ridiculous posts from him then he will just go away.
Maybe he can post on some gay blog and be happy.
"BTW, delight, why did you imply I am gay?"
Simply because you make a stronger stand for Homosexuality than you do for the God of the Bible.
It's a priority thing.
BTW, delight, why did you imply I am gay?
delight: I am not trying to "stump Christians" with "their" Bible - I am a Christian - it's my Bible too and you completely ignored the question. I didn't ask about marriage - I asked about making divorce illegal. It's clear you're just another hey-I'm-not-gay-so-let's-discriminate-against-them "Christian."
delight, feet tends to take us down the same rabbit trails time and time again and then basically comes to the same conclusion, if in his mind it does not violate the 2nd part of the Great Commandment it's okay regardless of its impact to the 1st part of the Great Commandment.
And lastly...
Another obstacle Feet has erected in various posts over time is a question of Law versus Grace. However a very clear answer to how Christ fulfills the law is extensively written in the book of Romans, especially in chapters 7 and 8, which I quote in part:
"Those who live according to the sinful nature have their MINDS SET on what that NATURE desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. The mind of SINFUL MAN IS DEATH, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace; the sinful mind is HOSTILE to God. It does not SUBMIT to God's law, nor can it do so. Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God.
You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, IF the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ."
Another rabbit trail many Homosexuals want to run down is this absurdity that "they are born this way" and more preposterously, since God made them this way they must therefore be true to (indulge) their NATURE. I think we will all agree that it is in the NATURE of Homosexuals to desire these acts, thus making them NATURAL men. But what does the above Scriptures say of the NATURAL man?
He is dead in sin, he cannot discern, he cannot receive the Spirit of God because it is foolishness to him, he has his mind set on his nature, he is hostile to God and lastly he does not belong to Christ.
There is simply no reconciliation in the clear reading of Scripture that makes Homosexual 'love' an option for the Christian, no matter what one's interpretation of LOVE is.
IF Feet is truly a seeker of Truth and a Lover of God, I'm wondering why he continues to post here the same questions and old arguments in the face of all the great Biblical Counsel that has been shared here by the faithful Christians who have tirelessly wrestled to help Feet come to the knowledge of Truth.
AND Brothers, please correct me if I seem unloving but please answer; at what point in our conversations here does correcting errant beliefs become casting pearls? When does our counsel become foolish debate?
I've seen many posts where Feet states Christians that we cannot know the "MIND OF GOD". That somehow Bible believing Christians cannot know God's thoughts! But I have yet to see any posts from Christians that the Mind of Christ IS knowable and in fact, true Christians have the Mind of Christ!
BIBLICAL ANSWER: 1COR 2:14-16 reads "But the NATURAL man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are FOOLISHNESS to him; nor can he know them, because they are SPIRITUALLY DICERNED. But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is rightly judged by no one. For who has known the mind of the LORD that he may instruct Him? BUT WE HAVE THE MIND OF CHRIST.
Another obstacle Feet has erected in various posts over time is a question of Law versus Grace. However a very clear answer to how Christ fulfills the law is extensively written in the book of Romans, especially in chapters 7 and 8, which I quote in part:
"Those who live according to the sinful nature have their MINDS SET on what that NATURE desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. The mind of SINFUL MAN IS DEATH, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace; the sinful mind is HOSTILE to God. It does not SUBMIT to God's law, nor can it do so. Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God.
You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, IF the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ."
Regarding Feet's many references to the INTERPRETATION of Scripture, try this one out:
BIBLICAL ANSWER: Found in 2Peter 1:19-21 "And so we have the prophetic word confirmed, which you DO WELL TO HEED as a light that shines in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts; knowing this first, that NO PROPHESY OF SCRIPTURE IS OF ANY PRIVATE INTERPRETATION, for prophecy never came by the WILL OF MAN, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit."
So, here's a clear cut rebuttal for anyone who thinks there are many 'interpretations' of the Word of God.
PRAGMATIC ANSWER: SINCERITY is not the LITMUS test for right standing with God and His Truth.
Just because I believe I can FLY doesn't negate the LAW OF GRAVITY should I be foolish enough to jump from a tall building!
Continued...
IS HE SCOFFER OR IS HE SEEKER?
I'm new here to posting on the Christian Post but I have read these posts for over a year and have kept silent as I feel the true seeker will find his answers in the pages of Scripture. I have been dismayed by a few posters who seem to revel in deliberate ignorance or indulge in sheer mockery of God's Standards and yet want to say that they "love" God.
I've cheered on the faithful Christian posters who have patiently explained over and over again the expressed Mind of Christ only to be ignored and dismissed by those who just want to be controversial or insist their thoughts and ways are above God's own. I believe that the Word of God will not return void but I am mindful that I should never just debate the things of God with the godless scoffer. The things of God are pearls that I should not cast them out to be trampled underfoot by 'pigs'.
That said, I do believe in holding up the standards of God in this godless society as I witness the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled, therefore I humbly submit the following:
Answers to Feet
From another thread, Feet says:†your claim is that anyone interprets scripture wrongly does not love god. they obeyed what they believed were god's commands. they were wrong."
BIBLICAL ANSWER: in Romans 10:2-5 in part, "they have a ZEAL for God but not according to KNOWLEDGE."
..being IGNORANT of God's Righteousness and seeking to establish their OWN righteousness have NOT SUBMITTED to Righteousness of God."
This seems to be a clear explanation that just because someone has a ZEAL for God it doesn't necessarily follow that they LOVE God.
Continued...
"in dealing with this situation why didn't paul merely quote the law."
Corinth wasn't in Israel and may not have known the law. He simply stated it was immoral the same way he stated men with men and women with women is immoral in Romans.
As for the command to expell the wicked who sin against God, are you suggesting we have CP ban the pro-homosexual people here?
some would say the law is inferred, but only to make us conscious of the possibility of sin. but the coviction there is sin is that the man's father is also his neighbor. having your neighbor's wife is not loving your neighbor as you would yourself? and in addition, his action diminishes not enhances the love between father and son and in addition brings suffering and disrespect. to the relationship.
his reprimand is thru acknowledgement of the spirit not thru the quoting of the law.
1cor5:1It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that does not occur even among pagans: A man has his father's wife. 2And you are proud! Shouldn't you rather have been filled with grief and have put out of your fellowship the man who did this? 3Even though I am not physically present, I am with you in spirit. And I have already passed judgment on the one who did this, just as if I were present. 4When you are assembled in the name of our Lord Jesus and I am with you in spirit, and the power of our Lord Jesus is present, 5hand this man over to Satan, so that the sinful nature[a] may be destroyed and his spirit saved on the day of the Lord.
6Your boasting is not good. Don't you know that a little yeast works through the whole batch of dough? 7Get rid of the old yeast that you may be a new batch without yeastâ€â€as you really are. For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed. 8Therefore let us keep the Festival, not with the old yeast, the yeast of malice and wickedness, but with bread without yeast, the bread of sincerity and truth.
9I have written you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral peopleâ۠10not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. 11But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat.
12What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13God will judge those outside. "Expel the wicked man from among you."[b]
1 Corinthians 5:1
[ Expel the Immoral Brother! ] It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that does not occur even among pagans: A man has his father's wife.
in dealing with this situation why didn't paul merely quote the law.
Leviticus 18:8
" 'Do not have sexual relations with your father's wife; that would dishonor your father.
when jesus said he would send the holy spirit why did he say" and he will convict you of all truth", instead of saying and"he show you all the law says to you"
gotta go
mb, hold your breath but I agree with you on your last post 110%.
mike22685, mb is correct that sign is purely hypocritical, many in the homosexual community want to be allowed the right to marry so how can they be opposed to others who want their definition of marriage recognized such as polygamy. As I asked you before and you never answered if we allow for same-sex marriages/unions then what is the new definition of marriage or can we even have a definition for marriage?
mburrell, what do you mean? Gays and polygamy and not at all related except in your mind. You try to group us with polygamists, pedophiles, those into beastiality, when in fact none are related (its kind of like when "christians" compare me to an alcoholic in denial, except for the fact that sexual orientation is in inherent trait and alcoholism is a chemical dependency.)
i'm still mazed by the man ( i think it is) that is holding the 'gays against polygamy' sign. this fellow can't have it both ways.
Leviticus 18:22
Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable.
Leviticus 18:22 (Amplified Bible)
22You shall not lie with a man as with a woman; it is an abomination.
We've experienced a drive by flagger...flagging my last post re the idea that God's love must also include the attribute of His Justice as somehow 'inappropriate'.
But has no words by which the flagger cares to communicate.
Perhaps we should all go back to cave man days where we just grunt our disaproval.
Thor not like Christian comment...makes Thor grumpy.
Nice summation Daniel Paul regarding this thread.
"spirit that determinnes our theology "
It is the same Spirit that the Bible was written by. Therefore, if you deny the Bible you deny the Spirit.
One cannot speak of God's Love only and leave out His Justice. There is no love without Justice. He not only loves us but will come again to set things right.
"consider that we sin when we chose bitterness over kindness, indifference over love, hostility over peace, judgement over goodness, fits of anger over self control, infidelity over faithfulness, haranging over patience,rancor over joy, and raging over gentleness".
All these heart attitudes are a sinful way of thinking and being.
Not an Abomination, just sinful attitudes.
To ignore God's clear prohibtion that the sin of homosexuality is an Abomination to Him and He has no fellowship with it, now that's much worse than a sinful attitude, right....
C'mon, God said homosexuality is an Abomination twice...covered in both Dispensations of Law and Grace.
I would be better off having a BAD ATTITUDE than to be practicing what God has called abomidiable!
Soooo the witness is Jesus Christ. Why don't you just say Jesus?
I assume it's why you say spirit instead of Holy Spirit.
feetxxxl,
>> am merely saying that we no longer are led by the understandings of the old covenant, but according to scripture are convicted of what is sin by what comes against the 3 commandments of love and is confirmed by the spirit of the one who lives in us. <<
feet, "the spirit of the one who lives in us" ... are you talking about what FEELS right? obedience to God is NOT always going to feel RIGHT or GOOD. Ya know WHY? Because we are a fallen race ... what feels natural to us is often corrupted, because our nature is corrupted by sin.
Did you see my recent post about Abraham willing to sacrafice Isaac, in accordance with GOD'S WILL??? Would you even dare to speculate God would trust someone who would have enjoyed that???
If you truly denied yourself and gave your life over to God's will, you would begin to understand His sovereign point of view and actually love Him MORE ... because you understood, despite any pain that you might feel.
Feet, so you're basically saying that sin is up to the individual person? Then why read the Bible?
1john 1 explain witness and fellowship much better than i can.
"that which have looked at, which we have seen with our eyes and our hands have touched".................the physicality of witness thru fellowship.
"if we walk in the light as he is in the light..........."
we cannot be walking in the light without fellowship. if we are not walking in the light what good is our witness.
"According to what you propose, though, there are no sins. Well, if there aren't anymore sins then why did Christ die on the cross? Why do the apostles talk so much about repentance and the forgiveness of sins?
You can't just be saved and be selfish all over again. We still follow God's commandments because we love Him; because we are obedient to Him.
I urge you to pray about it. Don't just read the scriptures that tell you we're free from the law. Read the rest of the New Testament and all of Paul's letters. There's much more to it then sitting back and taking it easy. Sin is a struggle, not a vacation. Don't take advantage of the freedom God has given you! "
where do you get, i propose there is no sin? i am merely saying that we no longer are led by the understandings of the old covenant, but according to scripture are convicted of what is sin by what comes against the 3 commandments of love and is confirmed by the spirit of the one who lives in us.
if king david had loved his neighbor as himself he would have never stepped in what he did with bathsheba.
paul says that the law is still a tool to make us conscious of sin, but it is thru the spirit that we are convicted as to what the sin is. .....................because under the new covenant we are now led by. the spirit............................ the holy spirit the one that christ sent to convict us of all truth.
being directed to live thru the 3 commandments of love means that it is no longer just our actions that are sins but also our own convictions, that may be against christ, that we chose to fill our hearts with.
consider that we sin when we chose bitterness over kindness, indifference over love, hostility over peace, judgement over goodness, fits of anger over self control, infidelity over faithfulness, haranging over patience,rancor over joy, and raging over gentleness.
DelightntheLord,
>> Seems he could respond in the first person and with more clarity if he didn't throw disjointed scripture about like the Italians testing spagetti. Answer a question from time to time. You know...communicate honestly. I'm just calling him on his intellectual dishonety. <<
Ick. Don't I know it :^) And to be honest, I'm still trying to build a case that will convince him. I just try to keep in mind that others reading this will hopefully understand what we are talking about, honestly contemplate it and then seek corroboration of it through God's word ... no matter how "uncomfortable" it is.
I'm actually pretty familiar with some of the posters, here. I've been conversing with them for (approximately) 2 years, and have been reading articles here longer than that. So I definitely feel your frustration.
Just ask ifeelfine72. Some of my responses to him have at times been less than compassionate, and more like a sarcastic friend/brother who wants to punch him in the face and take his car keys so he can't drive home drunk and kill himself :^) Love ya, ifeelfine! You .... God bless you!
"there may be human side that wants approval but in christ what would be the point" so by his
saying this (which I think is honest) does he mean what's the point of seeking Christ's approval?
Does he think 'in christ' he has Christ's approval?
What does 'in christ' mean?
Feet, I have to ask. You always talk about a witness. What witness are you referring to? Because you're posts are really confusing regarding that.
My parnoid thought is he just wants to TAKE UP SPACE here and confuse others who may wish to read and understand these Posts.
Until he can answer my 2 very important questions without cutting and pasting from the online book and be real...he is a third person to me.
So, what's his quesstion?
there may be human side that wants approval, but in christ what would be the point.
my interest is to seek the truth thru the reasoning of the scripture, thru fellowship witness(if we walk in the light................), and thru aknowledging what god has made(romans1:20)
Feet, I'll try once more.
You deffinately understand that the law no longer applies. I agree with you in the fact that old covenant laws are not meant for us.
However, you are confusing the law with sin. Paul tells us in Colossians that sin is what lurks within us. (sexual immorality, impurity, lust, and evil desires)
According to what you propose, though, there are no sins. Well, if there aren't anymore sins then why did Christ die on the cross? Why do the apostles talk so much about repentance and the forgiveness of sins?
You can't just be saved and be selfish all over again. We still follow God's commandments because we love Him; because we are obedient to Him.
I urge you to pray about it. Don't just read the scriptures that tell you we're free from the law. Read the rest of the New Testament and all of Paul's letters. There's much more to it then sitting back and taking it easy. Sin is a struggle, not a vacation. Don't take advantage of the freedom God has given you!
Muggle, I applaud the sentiment you have made on Feets behalf and am in awe at your compassion for him.
I'm just having a spot of trouble figuring if he's just spewing or asking.
Seems he could respond in the first person and with more clarity if he didn't throw disjointed scripture about like the Italians testing spagetti. Answer a question from time to time. You know...communicate honestly. I'm just calling him on his intellectual dishonety.
I want to know...WHO is the Holy Spirit to Him?
And Who is Jesus if not the WORD of God.
He declines to answer...remember to test the spirits?
You have a go at him, God bless your efforts.
the love of the second commandment comes from the first, because he loved us first. it was in receiving that love
romans1:20For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualitiesâ€â€his eternal power and divine natureâ€â€have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.
and having received it, we returned that same love to god and in addition, in that same love, loved ourselves and our neighbor.
it is that same love, that is described in 1cor13
feet, the Book of Numbers declares that the only act that required capital punishment alone was murder, all other crimes that called for capital punishment could be resolved in other ways.
Actually, I think feetxxxl is a seeker. But he's struggling so hard to reconcile God's word to his own viewpoint, rather than bend to God's will, because he believes he would never be able to change, even if he wanted to.
A man can carry a burdensome load on his back for years, but his spine will become bent and disfigured as time goes on, until one day he finds he can no longer stand up straight. What's going on right now is the disfiguration of feetxxxl's soul. He's had to carry this burden for so long, he's afraid that if he dropped it, he would never be able to stand above it anyway. So he's convinced himself that his posture is correct ... just different.
feet,
I apologize for talking about you like you're not here, as you're probably going to read this (or at least skim over it), but I'm actually on your side. Remember that Jesus told us that we need to "deny ourselves", and sometimes that can seem costly. Abraham surely had a terrible time with it, when God asked him to sacrafice Isaac, but Abraham denied himself and his natural inclinations to uuuh "disagree" (lol) with God, and was willing to meet the request.
Delight, believer, Shuck, et al. He needs prayers. I have a hard time believing that anyone will to work so hard at the linguistic gymnastics he displays is just here to cause trouble. He wants our approval because he mistakenly believes that God will loose in heaven by what's loosed on earth in this matter. And it's just not gonna happen.
Who do you suppose he's talking to?
Quick...someone, get this guy a dictionary so he can look up 'abomination'.
"Okay, the words laying with a man as one would a woman is an abomination in God's sight."
not all the prohibitions of themselves were sins, and some things that were directed are today considered intolerable evils. and some of the retributions are beyond the extreme, and would today would warrant capitol punsihment.
would do you suppose would happen to a set of parents if they ended the life of their son because he cursed them.
the civil war was fought, and a church was split, because one side BELIEVED that to not enslave meant you didnt love god and you had abandoned the principles of the bible.
and then there are all the laws about keeping the sabbath.
The Sabbath-Breaker Put to Death
32 While the Israelites were in the desert, a man was found gathering wood on the Sabbath day. 33 Those who found him gathering wood brought him to Moses and Aaron and the whole assembly, 34 and they kept him in custody, because it was not clear what should be done to him. 35 Then the LORD said to Moses, "The man must die. The whole assembly must stone him outside the camp." 36 So the assembly took him outside the camp and stoned him to death, as the LORD commanded Moses.
even though it was directed, today ethnic slavery is an intolerable evil.........................it comes against the second commandment and the spirit of christ
CONTNUED
feet, so if it comes against wholeheartedly loving God it doesn't matter and its okay to do as long as it doesn't in your opinion go against loving one's neighbor?
Oh my, What's he got there...some kind of online Blue Letter Bible website where he can cut'n' paste words he doesn't understand.
I'm a glass half full kinda person but this discussion is going nowhere and benefits no one....except us Bible believing Christians have the opportunity to brush up on our Bible skills!
CONTNUED
hebrews8: 7For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another. 8But God found fault with the people and said[b]:
"The time is coming, declares the Lord,
when I will make a new covenant
with the house of Israel
and with the house of Judah.
9It will not be like the covenant
I made with their forefathers
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt,
because they did not remain faithful to my covenant,
and I turned away from them, declares the Lord.
10This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel
after that time, declares the Lord.
I will put my laws in their minds
and write them on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
11No longer will a man teach his neighbor,
or a man his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,'
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest.
12For I will forgive their wickedness
and will remember their sins no more."[c]
13By calling this covenant "new," he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.
Romans 13:9
The commandments, "Do not commit adultery," "Do not murder," "Do not steal," "Do not covet," and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this one rule: "Love your neighbor as yourself."
if under the new covenant the summation of the law is the 2nd commandment, that would mean each law is the essence of that summation.
therefore for homosexuality to be a sin it must come against loving ones neighbor as oneself......................... it doesn't
and...............unless you can prove otherwise it isnt a sin.
Yeah, DelightntheLord, it's like talking to one of those AIMbots. He has been saying the same things for the last year. He holds so dear to the we have been freed scriptures but refuses anything else.
I believe he enjoys taking advantage of God's freedom. You're beginning to see what I've been saying all along. Unfortunatly I fell into the trap and asked a question when I knew better.
HAHA! ... I was actually going to quote that scripture but couldn't remember where it was. I do remember now and it is definately in Timothy.
1 Timothy 1:4
"Don't let them waste their time in endless discussion of myths and spiritual pedigrees. These things only lead to meaningless speculations, which don't help people live a life of faith in God."
or the stupidity of answering a fool in his folly...he's not gonna get it, he don't want to get it. He wants to continue in his sin.
I'm growing weary of casting pearls...aren't you?
He's not a seeker but a mocker.
Brothers, You know...I don't think we should continue to answer back to Feet.
He is intellectually dishonest and seems not to honor God's Word but instead is enjoying a game of bible-verse-bingo here. He does not honestly address questions posed to him.
We as Christians may be falling into the trap of entertaining foolish arguments (in Timothy somewhere)
If we don't answer back, perhaps Feet can find a job or find another board to where his beliefs are more widely applauded.
feet, show us the options to these designs as authorized by God?
Delight me if you will, Feet. Where in the bible does it ever state that a man shall have another man as his own? Please point me to the scripture. XD
Feet, let us not stumble over lingistics;
Romans 1:27 Likewise also the men leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust, men committing what is shameful..."
How is this not an indictment that having homosexual relations is not sin?
Lust is one of what God considers the 7 deadly sins.
Is it that you don't want to read the clear meaning and obstinately hold on to your ideas of what you have the liberty to do sexually from your debased mind?
again in matthew 19 there is no use of the word "only" and dispensation is given verse 11.
" not the smallest letter, not the least stroke"
At the risk of sounding redundant in response to your repeated plea of; "explain how the words of the verses you stand on say homosexuality is a sin."
Okay, the words laying with a man as one would a woman is an abomination in God's sight.
What do the WORDS mean to you?
Is it a warning of God's displeasure? Would you want to ignore God's displeasure over your activities?
Is it a suggestion?
What is your point?
again.................if you bite you........... will explain how the words of the verses you are standing on say homosexuality is a sin.
feet, God's original and only design for marriage is that of one man and one woman united as one in the sight of God for life and His original and only design for sexual intimacy is reserved for the marriage bed of one man and one woman united as one in the sight of God for life through marriage. Anything outside of these designs to include the sexual practices of homosexuality is sin in the sight of God.
Okay, Feet...I'll bite. Which spirit?
As I've asked you before, Who is the Holy Spirit to you?
feet, it is the inerrant Word of God that determines our theology.
the simple point was.............. explain how the words of the verses you stand on say homosexuality is a sin.
it is my understanding that as believers it is spirit that determinnes our theology rather than science
Oh, so you're back, Feet with all your out of context Scripture quotes...
I got lost in all the verbiage to try and find your point but I think it has something to do with defending theology from our forefathers. Right?
Which in particular, Feet? Which theologies are passed down? Sounds like you are beating the same drum; there is no absolute truth, there is no absolute truth... and so on.
I think you may consider yourself a "gay christian" with your knowledge of the lingo.
If so, look further down 1 Thess 5:20 that you quoted...here in verse 22, we find the command to "abstain from every form of evil".
Would you say that not abstaining from the abomination of homosexuality as God sees it is a voilation of this Scripture?
Remember, we're not at the Buffet...either agree with the Word of God as a whole or dismiss it...satan barters in half truths and you seem like you'd like to do the right thing.
"There is hormonal research and womb research. Indeed, I could fill a website will all of the research that concludes that sexual orientation is biological or genetic."
These studies show no proof or there wouldn't be an issue now would there?
.............and no witness.
in regards to the issue of homosexuality their appears to be no examination and no corresponding testing.
The Fulfillment of the Law
17"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.
even in a secular courts very jot and tittle of the law is examined to determine the intentions of its founders, be it about local, state, or constitutiona law. even christ in matthew emphasizes the importance not only the law, but every word and aspect of the law.
yet, none is willing to even discuss the words, or their combined meaning in verses.. their investment appears merely to be defending the theology that was passed down by their fathers and forefathers. is this your understanding of what it means to seek the truth.
1thess 5:20 test everything , keep the good.
Delight and jhumfle
Great to have brothers/sisters? in the Lord fighting the good fight. I don't know if DH is in this category, but there are the gay radicals that are trying to sabatoge Christian sites to confuse the babes in Christ. The Devil is working hard to infiltrate.
Amen to that Brother Rolln...Success stories make the staunch gay position invalid.
I know DH has left the board but I just gotta say in response to his blighted position:
DH says, "As citizens people have a right to equal protection under the law even if some people believe that they are sinning."
Protection from WHAT?
Don't the voters and the opposition to Prop 8 have a right to be protected from the protesting gay hoodlums?
Homosexuality is a religion....with enough indoctrination and scientific theories to choke a camel.
"It's a spiritual problem that can only be battle on our knees in prayer."
Amen!!
Delight -
LOL! The APA has an article on their website that mocks Christian organizations that help the homosexual leave the gay lifestyle. The APA has succombed to the politically correct mentality as the universities have - unfortunately to the detriment of society. These lost sheep are blind and cowardly. The APA also has no answer or chooses to ignore the fact that groups like Exodus and Focus on the Families "Love Won Out"? has had thousands of homosexuals turn from the lifestyle. The media won't show it, but as these groups continue to grow, there will be continued hope for the other homosexuals that are desparate to leave the dangerous homosexual lifestyle. It's a spiritual problem that can only be battle on our knees in prayer.
"You and many gays are obsessed with studies and research to help legitamize your perversion, but I'll tell you something. Before the American Psychology Assoc. gave its approval to gays, they had research that showed that the homosexual was diviant and was a harm to society. So what changed their "research" do you think???? "
UMMMM, do you suppose they lacked peer review?
dh, take God out of the equation, isn't that exactly what secular humanists are trying to do in all areas of society as we know it.
One of the reasons Jesus never mentioned or the Jews didn't mention homosexuality in the Scriptures is not because homosexuality is acceptable.
No, I'm assuming that homosexuals were still in the closet back then rather than on the streets threatening and vandalising the opposition to the gay agenda in the name of civil disobedience. Given the culture at the time...and the current culture of some of mideastern countries, all those homos were stoned to death.
DH -
You and many gays are obsessed with studies and research to help legitamize your perversion, but I'll tell you something. Before the American Psychology Assoc. gave its approval to gays, they had research that showed that the homosexual was diviant and was a harm to society. So what changed their "research" do you think????
My final post on this thread (I hear "amen" in the background).
I think that is was Alexander Pope who said "and God created Isaac Newton and behold, there was gravity." Newton, BTW, was more a man of faith than science.
Pope makes an interesting point if you think about it. Ultimately, we live in a secular society and have a constitution that expressly divides church and state.
So far, all of the arguments in opposition to gay marriage are biblical in origin. My plea is simple: You worry about your soul and allow me to worry about mine. "Take God out of the equation and there is no reason to object to gay marriage" ..Evangelical publisher John Belz.
As citizens people have a right to equal protection under the law even if some people believe that they are sinning. That's part of the beauty of the USA. We are not a theocracy!
DH -
That's exactly why Evolution as stated by Darwin is a THEORY. For the scientific method to be applied, you must have observed the evidence. Since we can't observe evolution the way Darwin states it, his ideas will always remain a theory.
Boy, why do I always have a hankering for a banana!
Did anyone read this mess:
http://www.soulforce.org/article/homosexuality-bible
It say that we are misinterpreting the Bible. Funny!!
Lev 18:22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it [is] abomination.
dh, same-sex marriages/unions are not about what causes a person to become a homosexual, it is about redefining God's original and perfect design for marriage.
DH -
You call Soul Force a "Christian" group. Now I know you're lost. Gives me a good laugh though. I call that group Soul Farce.
Oh, never mind this guy at soulforce is gay. David, I thought you harped on Science surely this fellow has the same bias you do!
dh, by the way thes findings were presented in 1991.
my point DavidHart is that I have read many scientific articles. Some you would probably find outlandish. Just because an is written by man and reviewed by man and approved by man does not make it fact.
dh, since identical twins share the same genetic code, it would seem that this test was more conclusively against a genetic cause for homosexuality than confirming such a cause.
Just to remind you this is the Christian Post not Scientific Frontiers. The Bible is not relying on science, it doesn't need to.
Followers of Christ do not seek men's counsel in determining what's right and what's wrong.
David, Are you really trying to convince these folks on this board of your position?
"I could fill a website will all of the research."
Not impressed, sorry.
"The exists absolutely no published and peer reviewed research supporting the notion that sexual orientation is a choice."
I believe that "he created them male and female" for the purpose of fellowship and reproduction was a PUBLISHED work. I believe it was at one time a Best Seller...the Bible.
When you dismiss God's truth you do not cease to believe RATHER you will believe in anything.
Seeking the counsel of men over the Words of God is just shear folly. Fabels!
RE Soulforce...So what...who the heck is Mel White who wrote the article and why is his opinion important? Changing the definition of marriage is just not a human right.
"So if i come up with an idea, and have it published its fact. Interesting!!"
yeeesh! For an article to be published in a scientific journal it must be peer reviewed which means submitted to the referee process. Referees do NOT pass judgment on conclusions. Their concern is methodology consistent with the scientific method and conclusions tied to the observations from experiments.
So, no, if you have some whacked out theory, you cannot get it published in a scientific journal.
"However, where will the world be in defense of your view that sex with whomsoever is just fine and dandy when it comes your time to face your Creator?"
Theology and science are often in conflict. As science advances, the conflicts increase. Galileo learned this the hard way.
The Christian group, SoulForce, has some interesting perspectives:
http://www.soulforce.org/article/homosexuality-bible
this article was published and reviewed by peers, must be fact....
What do May 17, 2004, and May 15, 2008, have in common? One judge and a redefinition of marriage against the will of the people.
Both the Massachusetts Superior Court and the California Supreme Court by a one-judge margin redefined what marriage has always been in every culture and every religion for more than 5,000 years of recorded history.
According to the "Babylonian Talmud" – the book of rabbis' interpretation of the scriptures 1,000 years before Christ, there was only one time in history that reflects where we are right now. There was only one time in history, according to these writings, where men were given in marriage to men, and women given in marriage to women.
Want to venture a guess as to when? No, it wasn't in Sodom and Gomorrah, although that was my guess. Homosexuality was rampant there, of course, but according to the Talmud, not homosexual "marriage." What about ancient Greece? Rome? No. Babylon? No again. The one time in history when homosexual "marriage" was practiced was … during the days of Noah. And according to Satinover, that's what the "Babylonian Talmud" attributes as the final straw that led to the Flood.
Rabbi Spero spoke of God's compassion before the Flood, in hopes people would repent and turn back to His ways. He showed patience for hundreds of years.
But, he said, the Talmud's writings reveal that "before the Flood people started to write marriage contracts between men, in other words, homosexual 'marriage,' which is more than homosexual activity – it's giving an official state stamp of approval, a sanctification … of homosexual partnership."
In fact, he said, "the writings indicated that it wasn't even so much the 'straw that broke the camel's back,' but that the sin in and of itself is so contrary to why God created the world, so contrary to the order of God's nature, that God said then and there 'I have to start all over … to annihilate the world and start from the beginning. …'"
So if i come up with an idea, and have it published its fact. Interesting!! This could solve a lot of my problems..
"what kind of study would compare two individuals in the same environment, same abusive situations, and call it scientific fact. Scientific flawed is more like it"
Uh, the rate is double that of genetically unrelated siblings in the same environment. Selective observation is antithetical to critical thinking.
The fraternal birth order effect is the strongest known predictor of sexual orientation. According to several studies, each older brother increases a man's odds of developing a homosexual sexual orientation by 28%–48%. The fraternal birth order effect accounts for approximately one seventh of the prevalence of homosexuality in men. There seems to be no effect on sexual orientation in women, and no effect related to the number of older sisters.
Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, 103, 10777-10774.
Hormones and Behavior, 40, 105-114.
Archives of Sexual Behavior, 36, 163-176.
There is hormonal research and womb research. Indeed, I could fill a website will all of the research that concludes that sexual orientation is biological or genetic.
The exists absolutely no published and peer reviewed research supporting the notion that sexual orientation is a choice.
If anything the study proves that the situation/environment a child is place in could alter their orientation.
David,
With all the research you put your trust into to fortify your argument on same sex idenity may be totally on target in the world's limited view.
However, where will the world be in defense of your view that sex with whomsoever is just fine and dandy when it comes your time to face your Creator?
'I dunno, all the sheep jumped over the cliff...I thought I'd follow, too.'
what kind of study would compare two individuals in the same environment, same abusive situations, and call it scientific fact. Scientific flawed is more like it
Wow, if everyone was gay, "the whole earth would not exist in one generation" (some smart guy). There is no way being gay is a natural course of the earth, it is a problem and abnormality a mental illness.
A study, published in The Archives of General Psychiatry,
adds to the evidence:
"We found 52 percent of identical twin brothers of gay men
also were gay, compared with 22 percent of fraternal twins,
compared with 11 percent of genetically unrelated
brothers," said J. Michael Bailey, an assistant professor
of psychology at Northwestern University in Evanston,
"which is exactly the kind of pattern you would want to see
if something genetic were going on." By "unrelated," Dr.
Bailey was referring to brothers by adoption.
There is NO peer reviewed research - NONE - that supports the notion that sexual orientation is a choice. Alternative views are provided by (recently) Dr. and Mrs. Whitehead on their website. Again, that research is unpublished AND contains some factual errors.
ifeelfine, the only type of judgement that God said He would not bring on the earth again would be a worldwide flood, but wait you don't believe He did that the first time. Plus, everyone who is opposed to same-sex marriage believes that divorce is wrong and in a large majority of cases if not all a sin. So do you acknowledge that same-sex marriage is a sin?
Muggle, feelfine is just playing devil's advocate, he's very clever in his own eyes.
BTW ... I meant to say "shuck" didn't say that ... please don't twist THAT too.
ifeelfine72,
>> delight: shuck basically said that divorce is mandated in such cases (I divorced my wife because that is what scripture tells us to do) and it says no such thing. Jesus said the only reason it is permitted (not mandated) is because of adultry. <<
Delighted didn't say that ... He said the Bible "supports" divorce in cases of infidelity of a spouse.
You always do that. You twist everything: The Bible AND everyone elses words out of context, unless it fits your own agenda.
I can just see you, Feelfine...thumbing wildly through your bible to stump the Christians with their own Scripture!
You won't change anyone's belief who knows God...so why keep trying.
Because the constitution has addressed this by assuming marriage would be between one man and one woman and I agree with it as it stands.
I would not agree to an amendment changing that correct assumption our founding fathers made and make a mockery of God's purpose for marriage.
Go on get 'married'...I don't really care...it's on your own head. Like I've said, it's a heart issue and you'll have to answer to God for your folly.
No I'm not. Why?
shuck: you're not remarried, are you?
delight: then why legislate against same-sex marriage?
I don't like divorce. I'm lucky in the fact that my parents are one of the few in my family that have stayed together. Unfortunately, we are not a perfect people and couples make mistakes but that's why God is forgiving.
I would even say that in some cases the marriage wasn't of God to begin with. That's kind of walking a fine line though...
Regardless, I did what I knew was right. I know this isn't the perfect situation to raise my daughter in but by me having custody I can at least raise her the way she needs to be raised.
I felt horrible about the divorce until I read the scripture in Matthew. I never wanted it to end that way but at least I can be at peace knowing that it wasn't my fault and that I did not sin by doing what I did.
It is my firm belief that both abortion and divorce cannot be legislated via Government.
Both issues are a heart issue and remains there no matter what the Government deems appropriate.
Ifeelfine, excuse me. I appologize. My wording is not as good as the Bible's. what I meant, and like you said, is that in cases of adultery it is permitted to divorce her.
By my typing "tells us" I was merely saying that it was in scripture as being okay. I in no way meant that it was mandate.
delight: would you support a constitutional ammendment making illegal all divorce except in cases of adultry?
delight: shuck basically said that divorce is mandated in such cases (I divorced my wife because that is what scripture tells us to do) and it says no such thing. Jesus said the only reason it is permitted (not mandated) is because of adultry.
True, Feelfine...Jesus made an allowance for the failure of man's heart in keeping vows, He still hates Divorce and those who love and honor God would avoid it as long as it is within one's ability to stay within a marriage with a straying partner.
So, what is your point in this line of discussion?
shucks: Permitting us to do something and telling us to do something are two entirely different things
And again Jesus says it here:
Matthew 19:8-9
"Jesus replied, 'Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning. I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, and marries another woman commits adultery.'"
Matthew 5:32
"But I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, EXCEPT FOR MARITAL UNFAITHFULNESS, causes her to become an adulteress, and anyone who marries the divorced woman commits adultery."
I din't divorce her because she was gay. I divorced her because she had an affiar and that IS supported by the bible. Jesus himself said the above scripture!
shuckcreations: Nowhere does scripture tell us to divorce our gay / alcoholic / insert sin here spouses. No where!
If that man behavior voilates Scripture then does Jesus touch his heart?"
whose scripture...........the catholic's, pentacostal's, quaker's, episcoplian's, conservative baptist's...........etc?
Feet, you are confused about Scripture...if these denominations have anything written it is canon...extra biblical....men fabricating more than what the Bible says.
Perhaps it would be more clear to you if you just read what the Bible says and let all these denomination deal with their own error.
Yes indeed...where there is breath there is hope!
Yeah, I kind of got here a little late. ^^
DelightntheLord, we've given Feet on several occasions how God condemns homosexuality. Even under the new covenant but he refuses to listen.
I will commend you though in being able to talk with him in a new light. You actually seem to be breaking ground, though little it may be, with Feet.
Thanks Shuck...you make a great turn around point. I just hope your audience hasn't left the buiding. :)
"...the way they think."
sorry wrong word. LOL
DavidHart said: "Before someone asks; No. A gay gene has not been discovered. However a genetic correlation is not a requirement of something being inborn AND absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence."
Soooo parenting and a child's environment has absoultely nothing to do with the way they thing. Riiiiiiiiiiggggght! I think these scientists are the true bigots here. They will post any "evidence" to support their bias.
I'll quote DelightntheLord here: "We look at everything from an earthbound, finite perspective; we know nothing....we change science at the drop of a hat or for big lobby group! Which way is the wind blowing today, that's science."
Feet, with all the Christanese you spout off with in this post it is either you believe the whole of God's word or you don't...other than that you have created a god in your image that serves YOU.
Gosh, Feet are you being deliberately obtuse?
Scriptures from Leviticus to Romans..we ALL know what God has spoken especially when he speaks of men lusting for men as it says in Romans chap 1 vs 20+. You, yourself have participated in posts that have discussed this!
How about just sex outside of marriage as He has defined as being a sin. Sin is Sin.
C'mon, I need to prove nothing to you
DavidHart said: "On a related note, PLEASE do not try to change the child."
Oh but I would. I will instill the morals in my child as were instituted by God. She will learn what is right and what is wrong. To keep her open minded is only allowing her to make bad decisions. Would you try to change your child if he/she was an alcholic? What about a child molester?
Where do you get the right to say what's right and wrong? God is above an beyond. He laid out everything in His word. I suggest taking a look. Crack it open a bit.
Xtian.Patriot said: "What am I going to do if I have a fornicating, adulterous gay wife or child? ... I divorced her, and disowned, disinherited, and deny him as my son, it is that simple."
I too divorced my adulterous gay wife as scripture tells us to do. I have forgiven her but she made her choice and will never be with me again. I would not, however, abandon my daughter. My job is to be a loving father and as such, like I said above, I will instill morals onto her so she will not make the same mistakes as her mother.
then it is addressed directly to you. enough with the rabbit trails. explain how the words of the verses you stand on say that homosexuality is a sin.
Of course, I'm probably just a finger....and I'm pointing to the Word of God.
By the way...I belong to no denomination...I belong to the Body of Christ...literally.
Who is the Holy Spirit apart from Jesus Christ the Word?
Whose Scriptures indeed....
Who is the Holy Spirit to you, Feet?
"If you are on this post to stand up for gay marriage, then you disbelieve God and His Word."
again whose scripture. i read scripture and my understanding is that that holy spirit never condemned homosexuality a sin.
do you think your denominantion or church has some special enlightement to say that this is what was in god.s mind when he wrote it.
perhaps you can explain howthe words of the verses that you stand on say homosexuality is a sin.
Just to nose in on the overlapping conversation btw Feelfine and Believer...
The Bible says we will all be judged on every idle word...yes Christians will be judged but not for eternal purposes rather, a Christian who messes up will lose reward in Heaven.
Feet
It is an indication not some ethereal 'spirit' of some action but a heart belief, a world view.
We act in accordance to what we believe to be true.
If you are on this post to stand up for gay marriage, then you disbelieve God and His Word.
Do you get to spend an Eternity with God if you disbelieve what He has spoken?
believer: I was being sarcastic - And God said that he wouldn't bring that kind of judgment on the Earth (we will be judged but not that way) again so no, I don't believe that we will be judged that way.
my understanding is that the fruit of the spirit... love, joy, peace , gentleness,patience, self-control,faithfulness,goodness, and kindness which is different from the fruit of the spirit of satan....division, factions, judgement, bitterness, deceit etc indicates the spirit of any particular action.
this is not the same as what is in one's heart........... different attitudes about different issues
"
If that man behavior voilates Scripture then does Jesus touch his heart?"
whose scripture...........the catholic's, pentacostal's, quaker's, episcoplian's, conservative baptist's...........etc?
Feet
God only knows for sure what is in a man's heart...but if one is a fornicator, idolator, sorcerer etc then we know from Scripture that one who practices such will not inherit Heaven.
It's fruit we examine...not only other's fruit but our own first. We are told by Paul to examine ourselves to see if we are in the faith. We examine our hearts and the fruit of our professed faith. We are never called to tolerate sin.
if in the secular world a man is tried to determine his heart, such as in taking an other's life, why should not the spirit world be any different. if scripture says god only, knows whatsinanother mans heart why would witnessing actions trump that?
>> I am surprised since your view of God seems to indicate you wouldn't believe He would judge us as a people or nation for our sin. <<
believer, don't be surprised. ifeelfine72 thinks that God will not judge us because he is our Father in Heaven and that His love is perfect.
What he fails to recognize is that He is also perfectly "just" and will judge His children as it must be done according to His promises.
DavidHart,
Thanks for the info. Incidentally, I do understand how the peer review process works.
From Feet 'i think only god knows what is in another man's heart. but i think we know what we have chosen to store in our own. and surely the christ who lives in us touches our hearts'.
It's all in the fruit you mentioned in an earlier post...Christ does knock on the doors of our hearts, but only if we listen do we walk in the Spirit.
The Holy Spirit guides by the Word of God.
Pretty much in practice one can discern what is in another's man's heart by that man's behavior.
If that man behavior voilates Scripture then does Jesus touch his heart?
Jesus may be knocking but He is not leading such a man.
ifeelfine, oh so you seriously believe what you posted, I thought you were just being sarcastic as I was in my response back. I am surprised since your view of God seems to indicate you wouldn't believe He would judge us as a people or nation for our sin.
No Feet...regardless of timing of the posts there is a blatant put down following everything you write...especially in response to Christians.
It's a curious habit for one who states such things like "Christ in your heart"...and sounds all Christian like.
Its amazing how the gay right agenda is to teach tolerance, as long as everything is going in there favor. When the will of the people (the majority of the state has spoken) they will not tolerate it. Hypocritical isn't it.
i apologize for any put down. because of the order of the posted messages, a lot of times the message that follows your reply is inresponse to another message you sent and not for the one itis following. i have no idea what you are posting when iam posting my own.
i think only god knows what is in another man's heart. but i think we know what we have chosen to store in our own. and surely the christ who lives in us touches our hearts.
From Feet's earlier posts:
"you dont trust your own witness"
"why would you disparage a gift from god?'
Just a note here, Feet...what's with all the scripture then the put down?
No, Feet...it's all in whom we choose to serve...in any given situation. We serve the Lord or we serve ourselves.
god gave us a great heart created thru the spirit of christ, what you chose to store in it is your own doing.
are you saying that because of what you have chosen to store in it, you dont trust your own witness?
Big Feet
Truly a new heart God gives us! Praise Him. But it is His Word that is a lamp unto my feet. That's guidance and keeps the heart in check.
In the world you think very little of Christians who do not walk the talk. Wouldn't you agree that hypocracy comes from a wicked heart?
believer: Actually the worst one started after Prop8 and became much worse after the election. Clearly a sign from God that He is not happy with the bigotry.
Is God punishing California by fire for opposing prop 8?
No, it is a natural occurrance and not the judgement of God...but God's Wrath is coming and it will be much worse than the birthpangs we have now. God's church will be gone, then God's Wrath will very evident to those left behind.
Choose this day who you will serve...
"Big Feet; Belevers don't trust their own hearts because God has said that the heart is desparately wicked. His Word is what will guide true Christians, not the fleshly heart."
Ezekiel 36:26
I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh.
why would you disparage a gift from god?
ifeelfine, no, most of these fires started prior to the election plus there burning in areas where a lot of celebrities live who more than likely gave money to oppose Prop. #8.
xizwyck - Yes I have, several times.
"God's punishment for this bigoted law" - LOL! Have you ever read the Bible???
rolln4him: Based on your definition, are you any less a "pervert" than anyone else?
Has everyone seen the wildfires that are destroying California? It's obviously God's punishment for this bigoted law.
Last time I checked, we live in a republic democracy. Californian's voted in the ban, the majority have spoken.
David Hart wrote: You need to find your own resolution to these conflicts. Somewhere in the space between Hagee and Hitchens, many people find common ground.
There is no resolution I need to come to; I will not compromise the Word of God, which is what you are saying Christians must do to accept homosexuals. There is no compromise in clear cut Scripture reading about how God feels about this sin, so why would I want to compromise to appease you and the sin you love so much?
Seems as though you have gone to great lengths to have researched science to justify the sin of homosexuality but lack knowledge and faith about what God has spoken which stands where science fails. You may find satisfaction from what scientists have said and be woefully lost in your sin in the face of God. That is the resolution you have made but it doesn't change what God has said.
Big Feet; Belevers don't trust their own hearts because God has said that the heart is desparately wicked. His Word is what will guide true Christians, not the fleshly heart.
What is with all the out of context Scripture quotes you use to bash Christians who believe that what God has said is immutable? Your idea of interpretation is way off...the Word of God is not a BUFFET where you can chose pork chps over chicken or potatoes over rice.
Perhaps it would be better for you to become an Atheist than to construe and twist scripture to fit your particular need. You cannot have a foot in each camp. You know nothing of the nature of God for all the Scripture you quote.
"Remember in 1992, the national news was almost giddy when they ran a headline story of a "study" by a researcher stating that there was something in the stem of the brain that dictated sexual orientation. However, what wasn't in the national news was the outcry from the scientific community saying it was a fraudulent study and that the researcher was ... you guessed it ... gay. Ummm. "
so does this mean that the theology of believers is determined by science.....................science whose truth ebbs and flows with each most recent study.
is that what jesus meant when he said "you will recognize them by their fruit." fruit being the authentification by science"?
believer and others have determined that fruit means ............supports my interpretaion of scripture.
1john says that testing and validating what is............ is by fellowship witness............".that which wehave looked at, which we have seen with our eyes and our hands have touched"
romans 1:20 says that god has given man the capacity to see what is of god and not of god by merely observing the spirit of the thing that god has made....................so much so that no man has an excuse(all this before the law, since the beginning of time)
why is it that believers do not trust their own hearts?
Acts 28:27
For this people's heart has become calloused; they hardly hear with their ears, and they have closed their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts and turn, and I would heal them.'
Ephesians 1:18
I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints,
"What a JOKE!!! Why would God make someone Gay and then state that it is an abomination? I'm sorry, but it just doesn't wash. Homosexuals know in their heart of hearts that what they are doing is very wrong in God's eyes. Their hearts are just so hardened, and they are full of so much hatred, that they won't admit it, even if it means spending eternity in the LAKE OF FIRE. It is all so very sad.'
why is it that the" homosexuality is a sin" group consistently find it necessary to credit themselves with having the mind of god????. are you not contradicting scripture?
it has been said on this site, by this same group, that those who contradict scripture do not love god.
1 Kings 8:39
then hear from heaven, your dwelling place. Forgive and act; deal with each man according to all he does, since you know his heart (for you alone know the hearts of all men),
"I don't know what you're getting at here Big feet.
Is fornication your limited idea of what defines love?
Please don't quote the BIBLE as proof of a gay marriage stance IF YOU DO NOT KNOW THE Author.
His definition of love never is not defined through what he calls Abomination.
Marriage is NOT just 'two people devoted' to each other. Marriage has a purpose higher than mere human
devotion. "
do you have a
problem with annotation or are you merely quoting your own gospel?
Mpfrend and moth -
You both make great points, but I believe your post have these funny characters because you're doing a copy/paste thing. You have to type directly into the post to avoid those goofy characters. Then you can copy it into an editor to see if it's OK.
Now I'm hungry for a banana! OOppps, must be the evolving thing going on...
DH -
LOL! You're ignorance is astounding. Evolution as fact??? You're kidding, right? There is micro evolution, but macro evolution like changing species to species is still genetically impossible - monkey to man type stuff was a joke before I became a Christian and we still make fun of it.
Biblically speaking, homosexuals are in a manner of speaking "born" gay. Just like I was born to be a flaming heterosexual, an adulterer, a fornicator, and a liar, etc. The Biblical fact is we are not born children of God but descendants of Adam. Thus we are born inheriting a spiritual defect called sin. That is why Jesus was telling Nicodemus (in John 3) that we must be “born againâ€Â, reborn if you will to become children of God. It’s not a metaphor or some sort of cute saying. But God did not make a person homosexual. God hates sin but loves the sinner. Unfortunately Christians often get this backwards and hate the sinner and love the sin. But make no mistake, if you are following the Bible as the Word of God, then sex outside of the covenant relationship between a man and a women, is sin. That said if you don’t believe the Bible and your right, you have nothing to worry about. If you’re wrong…
DH -
First and foremost, the "empirical" evidence you supposedly have is from gay community which is review by t ... yep, you guessed it, the gay community and/or their allies. Any other viewpoint is simply not invited. Trust me, I've been there in the academic community. As a Christian at a major public university, I was literally not invited to engage in discussion of policies regarding our profession when I and others expressed opposition to the elitist movement. A good documentary on academic elitism is called "U-Indoctrinate" if you're interested.
However, if you want to call your empirical evidence the rule of the day, then you may run yourself into a bit of a problem because now you - if you use the born gay mentality - would have to accept all sexual orientations such as pedophiles and bestiality and others perversions - right? Or is this a pick and chose thing?
"Why would God make someone Gay and then state that it is an abomination?"
That's a good question; one that theologians will grapple with for many years. Nevertheless, there is a clear separation between science and theology. The science is what it is. Similarly, if you believe in creationism or intelligent design it is unlikely that all of the scientific proof in the world and the Pope's concurrence will convince you that Evolution is established and universally accepted as scientific fact.
Unfortunately, many religious leaders seem ill-equipped to deal with biblical and scientific contradictions. You need to find your own resolution to these conflicts. Somewhere in the space between Hagee and Hitchens, many people find common ground.
I will add that if anyone is really interested, they should purchase "Sexual Orientation and Mental Health" This provides an overview of rigorous empirical research on mental health in lesbian, gay, and bisexual people that has emerged over the past decade. All of this material has been published in peer reviewed scientific journals.
If you want an opposing view, the Whiteheads (Dr. and Mrs.) have just put new material on their web site. This is NOT peer reviewed material and I can easily point out several factual errors. I have written to them and have not yet received a reply.
What a JOKE!!! Why would God make someone Gay and then state that it is an abomination? I'm sorry, but it just doesn't wash. Homosexuals know in their heart of hearts that what they are doing is very wrong in God's eyes. Their hearts are just so hardened, and they are full of so much hatred, that they won't admit it, even if it means spending eternity in the LAKE OF FIRE. It is all so very sad.
Apparently, some people do not understand what peer review publishing means nor the referee process. Within academia, research is only accepted as valid if it submitted to, and published by, peer reviewed scientific journals. It's the difference between what any jerk can write on the Internet and what meats scientific standards.
You can start here. This is a compilation from 13 scientific organizations with extensive end notes that cite the journal of publication: http://www.apa.org/pi/lgbc/publications/justthefacts.pdf
As you might expect, I have hundreds of references. I have found that this compilation is a very good starting place. If anyone wants more, I will provide them - simply use the contact form on our web site ( http://www.tips-q.com ).
Before someone asks; No. A gay gene has not been discovered. However a genetic correlation is not a requirement of something being inborn AND absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence.
Wow, this system really didn't like my quotation marks. I wonder what that's about??
I stopped by the one in Charlotte, NC to check it out, and found nothing much to be going on. It was more like a high school pep rally, or a youth group carwash (due to the excitement over getting people to honk on the road).
The leader of the ministry I'm involved with has put out a good answer to this issue entitled
Is There a “Civil Right†to Gay “Marriageâ€Â? here: http://voiceofrevolution.askdrbrown.org/2008/11/15/is-there-a-civil-right-to-gay-marriage/
How come a "Christian" paper isn't promoting God's stand on true marriage? Something is fishy.
Leviticus 18:22 (Amplified Bible)
22You shall not lie with a man as with a woman; it is an abomination.
muggleborn-
They won't be able to provide you "links" to these PUBLISHED or PEER reviewed studies because there are none. It's part of the gay agenda lies and deception. They're convinced that there must be something out there.
Remember in 1992, the national news was almost giddy when they ran a headline story of a "study" by a researcher stating that there was something in the stem of the brain that dictated sexual orientation. However, what wasn't in the national news was the outcry from the scientific community saying it was a fraudulent study and that the researcher was ... you guessed it ... gay. Ummm.
DH-
I don't know who "flagged" me, but it's a shame.
IF and I mean IF there's evidence that "you're born this way" then would you OK pedophiles and bestiality if we can prove they're born this way?
"These folks are fighting the inevitable. Gay marriage will be legalized throughout the USA within a decade."
If true, then We as Americans will be that much closer to God's Judgement. That is, if we can survive as a civil society in ten years.
In the meanwhile, we as followers of Christ must do all we can to hold up His standard and not just go along with mumbo jumbo of human science and desire to fulfill our base lust and make our own law.
feet, your good at talking to the spirit issue, well not really since you present a distorted view of it, but you ignore God's truths completely and then have the gaul to use a quote from John 4 that refers to God's truths.
dh, when it comes to the world's definition of marriage it really doesn't matter, what really matters is God's original and perfect design for marriage which is one man and one woman united as one through God for life.
feet, once again I want to thank you for validating one of the major reasons I am opposed to same-sex marriages/unions. Not only will gender not be an issue but neither will the ages of the couple or will marriage even be limited to only two people? NAMBLA eagerly awaits the passage of these new laws!
>> There is significant PUBLISHED and PEER REVIEWED research that concludes that sexual orientation is involuntary and formed around the time we learn to walk. <<
DavidHart, Do you happen to any links to published studies ... particularly ones that conclude the "time children learn to walk" reference frame? I'd be interested in reading it.
Proof positive because something is Published or PEER REVIEWED? How simply naive.
"concludes that sexual orientation is involuntary and formed around the time we learn to walk"
Politically correct bullspit!
Let's all vote and say the sky is orange...perhaps if we are insisitent enough we can convince the masses of an orange sky!
Might does not make right!
We look at everything from an earthbound, finite perspective; we know nothing....we change science at the drop of a hat or for big lobby group! Which way is the wind blowing today, that's science.
"marriage will be defined by what it has always been defined, by the devotion and commitment by the 2 persons who exchange vows."
Actually that is not how marriage has always been defined. For most of human history, marriage was primarily about the conveyance of property.
These folks are fighting the inevitable. Gay marriage will be legalized throughout the USA within a decade.
"You weren't "born" gay. You're hoping against hope. There's NO empirical evidence that exists. NONE!"
Entirely inaccurate nonsense. There is significant PUBLISHED and PEER REVIEWED research that concludes that sexual orientation is involuntary and formed around the time we learn to walk. There is an entire cottage industry that seeks to refute the science through selective observation. While dozens of these PUBLISHED and PEER REVIEWED studies exist and can be reference, not ONE study asserting that sexual orientation is choice has EVER been PUBLISHED in a PEER REVIEWED scientific journal. Either none have been submitted or, more likely, none have survived the referee process.
I don't know what you're getting at here Big feet.
Is fornication your limited idea of what defines love?
Please don't quote the BIBLE as proof of a gay marriage stance IF YOU DO NOT KNOW THE Author.
His definition of love never is not defined through what he calls Abomination.
Marriage is NOT just 'two people devoted' to each other. Marriage has a purpose higher than mere human
devotion.
john 4 "the true worshippers will worship in spirit and in truth"
is the truth clinging to an old covenant relationship to the law, defining marriage by physicalities.
if the the summation of the law is loving ones neighbor as oneself, how does homosexuality and homosexual marriage come against the truth of the summation of the law of loving ones neighbbor as oneself.
"mike22685, but if we do away with the present day definition of marriage then what does the new definition of marriage become or will we even be able to define it? "
marriage will be defined by what it has always been defined, by the devotion and commitment by the 2 persons who exchange vows.
Rolln, for one, there is plenty of evidence, but anything that contradicts your Bible you claim is invalidated. No, I would not support pedophiles or beastiality because both hurt the victim. There is no victim in homosexuality. I am so sick of you trying to group me with them because you see everyone different from yourself as a deviant. I was born gay, I most certainly did not ever choose to be gay, and I resent that you deny my life experience simply because it doesn't match up with what you believe.
Mike-
You weren't "born" gay. You're hoping against hope. There's NO empirical evidence that exists. NONE!
But, hey, let's say there is empirical evidence that someone is born with a certain sexual orientation, then would you accept someone with the sexual orientation of bestiality or pedophile based on the empirical evidence?
By the way, research on the subject of born sexual orientation have been done by and supported by gay activist organization. It like having ACORN overseeing a recount or the fox guarding the hen house.
dh, please note that regardless of sexual orientation one can choose to abstain from sexual intimacy. One can choose not to sin.
Delight, I was born gay. Ask any gay person and they will tell you there was never a choice, and the theories about abuse or neglectful parenting simply do not hold up in my experience or that of my partner and many, many gay friends. God created everyone, and just because your beliefs would crumble does not negate science or my life experience.
dh, God declared upon the creation of man and woman what His original and perfect design was for marriage and Christ reaffirmed that same design as He ministered on earth.
"celibate gay priests"
Could be in obedience with God's Word because they are not practising fornication. The sin is in the consumption. Not in what I think I am in personality.
Jury's still out on what constitutes 'gay'. After all, HE made them male and female for a PURPOSE he would not create gay. No matter how pursuasive you think your argument is it falls flat in the face of God. Doesn't matter what I think...it's God to whom we will one day give account.
DH -
I answer your two questions posed earlier:
1. Why should you care if I marry another man and how would it affect you? Because - even those that oppose gay marriage and are not Christians - the gay agenda wants their perversion in schools, business (in who we hire), in our taxes and the list goes on.
2. What are you going to do if you have a gay child? Tell him/her the same thing I'm telling you - it's a sin. It's not too hard. If he/she want to live that lifestyle of a sexual relationship (outside of marriage), then they would have to do this outside of our house as it's part of the Devil's work.
Yes, I've worked along side gay people for years at a university hospital and believe it or not, I had a lot of respect for most of them because of their work ethic. They had a lot of respect for me because I talked to them without condemning them - but then again, they weren't Christian. I haven't met a Christian gay in the work place.
originally polygamous?
God instituted marriage at creation. Just because a couple or group of people or adog and cat or two down in history h o o k e d u p doesn't mean it was marriage.
"I understand having to remove ourselves from those who Preach Christ but live ungodly but I don't believe God wants us to disown our children to follow our Christian Values."
On a related note, PLEASE do not try to change the child. The author of "reparative" therapy is Dr. Robert Spitzer. I will quote him precisely:
"For the vast majority it is not possible for them to change their sexual orientation ... It may help 5,000 people, but harm 500,000,†He has also said that “the Christian Right", with its intolerance of, and opposition to homosexuality, will use his findings in its campaign to prevent gays and lesbians from gaining civil rights protections."
"No, not limited to attraction BUT in whom you choose to become one with."
Utter nonsense. Sexual orientation is about what sex you are attracted to. There are celibate gay priests, for example. There are older people who are gay or lesbian who no longer have sex. There are children who are gay or lesbian who haven't had sex.
I, too was taken aback by the Patriot in what he said regarding how he would handle a gay son.
I believe our first duty as Christians is to LOVE as God does. God loves the Prodigal son even when he was spending the inheritance foolishly.
Patriot,
If your son feels like you don't love him unconditionally then how would you ever expect to win him to Christ?
I understand having to remove ourselves from those who Preach Christ but live ungodly but I don't believe God wants us to disown our children to follow our Christian Values.
"dh, as I said earlier the issue of same-sex marriage/union is that of redefining marriage from that of one man and one woman "
In point of fact, THAT represents redefining marriage as it was originally polygamous. Moreover, throughout most of human history, marriage was mostly about the conveyance of property and had little to do with relationships, sex or love. Within the US, slavery and then its repudiation had a profound impact on marriage. More recently, we redefined marriage to include inter-racial couples (the arguments in opposition were almost identical).
It's only a matter of time. Ultimately, the Supremes will decide that gays deserve equal protection under the law. Galileo was excommunicated for believing what is commonly accepted science today. Eventually, some people are going to be very embarrassed by some of the things that they have said about gay people.
David
"The effect of being gay is limited to sexual attraction".
No, not limited to attraction BUT in whom you choose to become one with.
Sex in God's Book is limited to one male one female 'becoming one'. You're an educated man, what does that mean to you? Two halves make a whole.
I don't think we need gay universities in this culture...pretty much higher education adores homosexuality and godlessness, so we need not label them. Perhaps most current; how about gay kindergarden! So our children can be readily equipped to go to the university as good tolerant, global citizens.
dh, as I said earlier the issue of same-sex marriage/union is that of redefining marriage from that of one man and one woman united as one in the sight of God for life as well as violating God's design for sexual intimacy which is reserved for one man and one woman united as one in the sight of God for life through marriage. As I asked another poster if we redefine marriage then what is the new definition or can we even determine a definition for marriage any longer?
"and disowned, disinherited, and deny him as my son"
I am not sure if that is literal as in you did or you would. Nevertheless, that is a sad commentary on our society and a lapse in critical thinking. Regardless of what you think is dictated by scripture, a son is a son. The published and peer reviewed science is clear and compelling; You have about as much choice in sexual orientation (yours or your children) as eye color.
As Archbishop Desmond Tutu has said "God is weeping" over gay arguments in the church. Tutu accused his church of “persecuting the already persecuted†in its attitude to gay people. “We seem to be engaging in this kind of, almost, pastime [while] there’s poverty, hunger, disease, corruption.
"Well, kids, I think we lost ol' David Hart there. I disagree very much that he ( a gay man) is not "defined by who he screws" au contraire; homosexuals are defined FIRST by their sexual "orientation"! ... their homosexuality takes the place of their very own humanity."
Preposterous bigotry.
The effect of being gay is limited to sexual attraction. Most of my gay friends lead robust lives that have little to do with sexual orientation. Indeed most of them have post-graduate degrees and I am unaware of any gay universities. Most have "straight" jobs with mostly straight bosses, peers and subordinates. Heck, some of them are even (IT'S HARD TO ADMIT THIS) Republicans! Oh, and the vast majority are in long term monogamous relationships.
Do you folks get this stuff from Don Wildmon? Where on earth does this urban legend craziness come from?
Well, kids, I think we lost ol' David Hart there. I disagree very much that he ( a gay man) is not "defined by who he screws" au contraire; homosexuals are defined FIRST by their sexual "orientation"! It is a sinful Idol before God and from my experience in knowing gays; their homosexuality takes the place of their very own humanity.
dh, so homosexuals are these sweet totally misunderstood class of people, tell that to the elderly woman they attacked by ripping a cross out of her hands and then stomping on it. Plus, once again the issue in not about a person being homosexual the issue is all about redefining marriage as designed and defined by God in His Word. While I respect a majority of homosexuals there are some among them who like some heterosexuals are just down right mean and act out accordingly.
What am I going to do if I have a fornicating, adulterous gay wife or child? What does light have to do with darkness? Not a thing. I divorced her, and disowned, disinherited, and deny him as my son, it is that simple. If they recant a practicing GBLT agenda, then God and I must forgive them. I still love my son, but I do not love his GBLT lifestyle. Hate the sin, love the sinner is simple and easy to do. Now I have inherited 100 to 250 million, he will see none of it. His loss. Any more questions?
If you do not do as Jesus commanded, you are not of His, you are not a Son of God, but a Son of Satan. If you try by the GBLT agenda, to destroy the Creator's Plan of Creation Order as explained in Genesis: to wit, God, man, job, wife, children, family, school, church and nation, to destroy those God ordained institutions, you are from Satan and an Anti-Christ. We see the Bible has now been declare as "Hate Speech", the Bible has been removed from school curriculums, prayer has been removed from court houses and schools, the Ten Commandments removed from court houses, Jesus is forbiden to be said in prayers, the Christmas manger on public lands forbidden, and even crosses removed from grave yards, God will punish each and every one complicit in this covering up of His Truth. God will not only punish evil doers, but even the President and the nation as a whole for the sins of a few, as in Sodom and Gomorrah, Babylon, Jerusalem, Rome, San Francisco, New York City and New Orleans, will your city be next?
Gay rights??? Bah humbug.
I don't care what you do behind closed doors. You can play with all the twinkies you want. It's none of my business. But, when you come after the children, take away a father's freedom by putting him in jail in Mass. because he objected to the homosexual agenda in his child's' kindergarten book, take away a woman's right to privacy in Montgomery county, Md. by allowing any person who perceives their identity to be female access to public facilities, forcing middle school children in a Chicago suburb to sign forms they will NOT inform their parents what they are being taught in school about homosexuality, take away not only the right to privacy of public facilities in Colorado, but also relegating the teaching of religious beliefs to behind closed doors, passing of SB 777 in the corrupt state of California, when you come after my right to vote, to deny me my input into our democratic system, you've crossed the line.
Hart;s corollary prevails ;-) http://www.tips-q.com/content/harts-corollary-godwins-law
Why do you use the phrase "The gay lifestyle?" Do you subscribe to the notion that we are defined by sexual orientation? My lifestyle is defined primarily by being a business man. "Who-I-screw" has little to do with how I live.
I'll call your attention to the fact that the same biblical arguments were made in opposition to inter-racial marriage. Furthermore, there exist many people of faith who suggest that the prohibitions against divorce are far more numerous and fervent than those against homosexuality. Moreover, there are many biblical scholars who do not interpret the Bible in the way that you do with respect to sexual orientation. That suggests two questions?
1. Why should you care if I marry another man and how would it affect you?
2. What are you going to do if you have a gay child?