For many Americans, all they've heard is that Christians are "anti-gay." The recent passage of amendments in California, Florida and Arizona defining marriage between a man and a woman and the large support those measures drew from churches haven't changed that perception, and perhaps made it worse.
But few, if any, especially in the media, have given the public the "whole story" about churches and their persistent efforts to protect what they believe is God's definition of marriage.
"I’ve not seen any attempt [by the mass media] to understand or communicate the real concern of Christians concerning gay marriage," said Bob Stith, who heads the Ministry to Homosexuals Task Force in the Southern Baptist Convention – the largest Protestant denomination in the country.
And Christians haven't been much help either.
"Too many Christians have cooperated with this by emphasizing more of what we’re against than what we’re for," Stith commented, concerning the gay marriage debate.
But much of that "whole story" includes love.
Former homosexual Melissa Fryrear educates thousands of Christians every year on how to respond to the issue of homosexuality in a "Christ-like" manner.
Director of the gender issues department at Focus on the Family, which hosts Love Won Out conferences, she says she has been accused of being anti-gay because of her beliefs.
"I'm not anti-gay because I'm a Christian and I'm a heterosexual evangelical Christian," said Fryrear, who became a Christian and came out of homosexuality over 15 years ago. "I'm pro-biblical sexual ethic. I'm pro-God's created intent for sexuality" – that being marriage between a man and a woman.
"That's what I'm for, so anything that falls outside of that falls out of God's intent," she highlighted.
"It's not what I'm against, it's what I'm for," she added, noting the nuance.
Still, it's a tough sell for many gay rights supporters, especially the thousands that marched last weekend in protest of the passage of gay marriage bans in three states. Hundreds stood in front of churches with protest signs.
Some opponents of California's marriage amendment, or Proposition 8, went as far as releasing blacklists (antigayblacklist.com) of those who made monetary contributions to support Proposition 8. The list includes the names of individuals, businesses, Christian ministries and churches and how much each donated.
Proposition 8 opponents are now preparing to defend same-sex marriage in court after California's Supreme Court agreed Wednesday to hear multiple legal challenges against the amendment. The high court had ruled in May to legalize marriage for same-sex couples and an estimated 18,000 gay and lesbian marriages were sanctioned before the Nov. 4 vote.
Meanwhile, proponents of Proposition 8 are also readying their arguments as the state high court agreed to allow them to intervene as defendants in the case. Arguments will be weighed beginning next month.
But while the legal battle rages on, Christians have been given the opportunity to clear up misunderstandings and boldly share their faith, some say.
"If people misunderstand Christianity or misunderstand God's truth, here is an opportunity for us to try to articulate those correctly and to demonstrate those rightly," said Fryrear of Focus on the Family.
That means, defending God's design for sexuality and doing so in a spirit of grace, humility and compassion, she explained. Continue >>
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I am not your judge...GOD is.
I pray that you'll realize how unreasonable you are and that you will see how harmful your judgment of others truly is.
Well, I see I cannot reason with you, but I pray you and others in the same situation will be loosed from the bondage you're in.
Oh I wasn't twisting that, but YOU have done plenty of judging on this website in the past. Don't deny it, that would be a lie (which is a sin, but its not me judging you, its God!)
It said God is your judge, and He is, and will. Why do you twist everything around? Bible verses, what others say here, etc.
"... don't explain yourself away. I am not your judge...GOD is."
How is that judging you? It is stating a FACT - according to bible.
Hmm, funny, you say that, then you judge me. Interesting.
"... don't explain yourself away. I am not your judge...GOD is."
EXACTLY - Amen
Jehovah, its not of the flesh. My attraction to my partner has gone beyond the initial "Hey, you're cute!" into a complete adoration of the wonderful person that he is. We have a bond that does not rely on what each other looks like or if we have sex, just like any husband in wife who are truly in love.
Well, even if you dismiss Lev, a number of places in the N.T. clearly says that anything other than 1 man and 1 woman is wrong. And to show that I am not singling out homosexuals, sodomy between a man and a woman is also contrary to the bible.
Didn't say that John. If we don't use Lev as a reference for all of our actions, then it is YOU who pick and choose from the Bible. The laws of lev. are broken because of the new covenant. Hence, we do not follow any of them. Many insist on using the "you shall not lie with man as with woman..." because it fits into their bigotry, not because they look to Lev. to live their lives daily.
Then your logic is; since we do not follow every law in Leviticus, we can commit any abomination we want? How about murder? Is that OK? That argument does not work.
John, then why don't we still follow every law of Lev?
I do not remember any verse that says follow my laws until society becomes reprobate - then interpret my laws to suit your needs.
I don't feel the need to express my views of God so you can judge them, thanks.
John, because you cannot read the Bible as it is written today to get a true understanding. You must go back through thousands of years, and original text, along with historical context, shows that Paul was encountering a great amount of idolatry which included sexual orgies, but homosexuality wouldn't be that rampant that he'd need to talk about it.
How do you come to the conclusion that this verse has to do with idolatry and not homosexuality? I started reading the bible as a child many years ago, and many times since, but have never seen anything to suggest what you are claiming. I am just curious how you arrive at your conclusion.
No, its not denying truth! Historically, it was NOT talking about homosexual relationships, it was talking about sex for idolatry. That is not the same thing, and I am not denying truth.
We're getting a little off track. Of course we are not going to eat the body of Jesus - literally. I would be curious what you think the following examples are telling us and mean.
1-Thou shalt not steal.
2-Thou shalt not lie with a man as with a woman because it is an abomination.
I know you think the O.T. is meaningless garbage, so how about Rom 1:27?
To "interpret" it to mean anything other than condemning homosexuality is just denial of the truth. Can't you see that?
John, you ignorantly deny that you interpret the Bible, but I can guarantee you do. Jesus said "unless you eat my body and drink my blood, you shall not have life within you." Do you take that literally, because if not, then you INTERPRET it.
"No John, it is you who scoff when we present valid arguments about our interpretation, and you scoff that someone else could possibly have the truth because you are too proud."
Actually, I and other Christians do not have to interpret anything. Although written long ago, it is quite clear in telling us how we should live and conduct our lives. The moral absolutes in the Word of God will never change. As morals deteriorate in a society, some look to 'interpret' the everlasting Word to somehow fit their lives and actions. So just to clarify, I read and apply the Word to my life the best I can, which is far from perfect, and have no need to 'interpret' anything.
No John, it is you who scoff when we present valid arguments about our interpretation, and you scoff that someone else could possibly have the truth because you are too proud. Gr8, the Bible lasts for all time, but Romans is condemning idolatry of the Pagans, not homosexuality, although the way the BIble has been interpreted over the years you'd think gays have become the new pagans. Interesting how that shift in Christian logic has occurred (there is very much an "us" and "them" mentality in regards to Christians and gays, and many "christians" on this site refuse to allow a gay person to be included in their Christian brethren.)
Jehovah, you never answered if you follow all levitical law, or only that one verse that suits your cause. Also, Romans speaks to temple prostitution, so to extend that verse to a civil union which is about love and commitment is false doctrine. I can't imagine the Lord would smile kindly on that. You speak as if we cannot fathom the same God you do, and that is simply not not true. You actively push gays away from Christ in the way you speak.
Scoffing is exactly what you and others do when someone quotes scripture to you.
Also, remember in the book of Proverbs, where it is said thast "fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowlege", so I believe that you believe in the Lord, but do you take him a little too lightly, Mike.
Mike, the Bible stands the test of time, any time, whether ancient time or modern time, sin is sin and the Bible shows that God was against any sin, including homosexuality, during the ancient leading to the modern era.
Can it buddy, no one is scoffing or lusting here.
2 Peter 3:3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts.
Rolln, regardless as to whether you think I am a Christian or not, there is not reason to try and bash me as an educator, the most important job we have (teachers make all professions possible.) The fact that you feel such a need to attack and attack tells me that perhaps you are not a very good Christian.
Mike-
You claim yourself to be an educator and a Christian. I know for a fact you are not a Christian, so why would I respect you as an educator. I've also noticed a pattern with you and your posts. You never give credit to any study provided you, not just from me, but from others as well. Anyone that is a Christian on this post you simply write off by saying that it's "THEIR" interpretation of the Bible. No matter how many studies or how many scripture verses we provide you showing that homosexuality is sin and detrimental to ones health - it sounds like you're not willing to repent and change, so onward we go.
OK, so then why as a Christian are you trying to bash one of the noblest professions when it is YOUR logic that made no sense? Is it because you needed to feel validated? Is it because you simply must put someone down? People take you much more seriously when you stick to the truth, but you quite consistently rely on insults.
Actually, I was public schooled throughout.
Rolln, is there a reason you're trying to insult me and my profession? We're not discussing the CDC article, were discussing what you said. You specifically said most gays have "some sort" of STD or other health problem. I paraphrased that you said most gays have STDs. That is one in the same. Please, enlighten me as to how they are different since you seem to think my education or teaching is substandard to yours.
Mike -
Now let's do a comparison:
My quote: "You must agree that most gays have some sort of STD or health related issue pertaining to their lifestyle."
Your quote:
"most gays have an STD...um, nope."
Do you see something missing. Now I know you are smarter than that. But it does tell me that you didn't read the CDC article real well. Try this again and this time take your time. I won't go on about your teaching credentials, but I wager to bet you're a public educator.
Tuesday, Jan. 27, 6:10 pm: You must agree that most gays have some sort of STD or health related issue pertaining to their lifestyle.
FYI, looking wasn't that hard.
mike-
Show me the post where I said most gays have an STD? I'd be curious. Be sure to put the EXACT quote. Happy looking...
Rolln, I didn't ignore them, you did. You take the study from the CDC and say that it says most gays have an STD...um, nope. You are going to tell me what most likely happened with my life experience, and that most likely my friends are lying to me, then tell me I am full of pride? Check yourself dude, you're losing it.
mike -
You're pride is driving suicidal tendencies, not the Exodus ministries. You had to leave more likely because you chose to live your live against a loving God.
Any study I sent you has been from the APA, CDC and other legit and verifiable sources. You chose to ignore them. Go on - live your life the way you think and we'll see what happens.
Best regards.
Rolln, doubtful, but you keep hoping for those pedophiles to be legalized huh? Exodus is a complete joke that twists their studies and harms many. Yes, I do know people who have gone through it, and yes, I have been subject to an "ex-gay" ministry and as I've said many times before, no matter how much prayer, I was driven further and further towards suicide. It disgusts me that people like you would rather see someone kill themselves pretending to be straight then live a healthy, normal life being open about who they are. You do not care how many people you harm with your lies or love cloaked in hatred. You are not a Christian, you simply cling to something desperately to which you belong. A real Christian speaks with love, you speak ignorantly about studies which you cannot even grasp correctly.
Are you aware that the cofounder of Exodus has publicly apologized for creating such a group and admits that he knows of many who have been hurt by his ministry?
mike -
You said you are struggling? Is this true? And with what?
Exodus, since I know you don't know anyone that has been through this program, has been around for years and have brought peace and deliverance to countless people struggling with sexual issues. APA is a joke. Years ago they had countless studies showing the harm that homosexuality causes, then all of a sudden - pooof; from out of nowhere homosexuality is fine. This is a joke. They can manipulate whatever they want to be true and to fit whatever way the wind is blowing. That's why I'm saying that it won't be long and they'll have "studies" that "prove" pedophiles are fine and sex with animals is actually fine too.
Rolln, I'm not going to trust you and your stereotypes about my circle of friends. Where does this constant need to be an expert on a subject you know nothing about come from? Exodus is a horrendous organization with an astronomical failure rate because they practice a form of counseling banned by the APA. Reparative therapy is dangerous and in the majority of cases doesn't work. The only reason you think it does is because the studies they falsely publish make things coincide with your Bible, so perhaps its you with those rose glasses. I see things in reality. I see that many, many gays cannot change (although I will admit, sexual orientation comes from different places for different people, so there are some that come out as gay but perhaps weren't born that way, similar to people who aren't born with a disability, develop one during their lifetime and eventually are healed.) Do not attempt to twist my words into saying I admitted everyone can turn straight or that being gay is a disability. As I said in my other post, being gay is not something destructive, although the choices you make as a person, gay or straight, can be destructive.
I pray that you will open your heart. Telling someone who is a Christian that they are not pushes them away from God, not bring them closer, which should be your mission. You need to seriously, seriously reflect on what I just said and your actions and words on this website. God will not be pleased with those who, through their own pride, push those struggling to follow farther away from him.
Mike -
I don't think you spend a lot of time reading through those research on this topic, but the gay community (many of them admitting the problem) know they have a problem. Remember, you say you know of, but trust me there are more than likely many more in your circle of friends that are lying to you or don't know themselves. You're a bit on the naive side of things. You only seeing things through rose colored glasses, so you're probably young. I can tell you're trying to paint yourself a rosy world in saying that you're a Christian. Afterall, maybe if you keep telling people and yourself that you're a Christian then maybe you'll be one. NOT! You're going to hit a reality wall at some point. Repent from your lifestyle and be a witness to those that need you. Exodus is a good place to start.
Rolln, there are many in the gay community who are promiscuous. That does not mean many in the gay community have STDs. In fact, out of all of my gay friends, only one has herpes and one has HIV. I also know of a straight girl who has herpes. 1 out of 4 teen girls has an STD, does that mean most teen girls have an STD? Certainly not. You need to look at statistics in a realistic light.
mike -
There you go again; hate, hate, hate ...
You must agree that most gays have some sort of STD or health related issue pertaining to their lifestyle. Per capita, gays have by far the most STD or sexual related disease issues than any other part of the population. Read for yourself:
http://www.cdc.gov/nchstp/dstd/Press_Releases/STDGay2000.htm
Oh, and pass me the soap - straight up, please. :)
I hope so! I'd love to see you behind bars, just don't drop the soap or you may learn more than you wanted to know (joking.) Its not gay sex that is a societal health problem, is promiscuity. Gays aren't to blame for every STD problem, nor are they to blame for all of HIV/AIDS, although you have so much hatred in your heart that you can't see anything wrong the straight community. Its always those awful, awful gays, isn't it? You can't be gay and be an amazing human being, can you? Your mind is clouded from reality.
Mike -
Concerned about gay sex positions? Yes I am. The mere perversion of gay sex is of vital concern for societal health and stability. I'm trying to keep the topic in discussion because it won't be long and even mentioning gay in the same sentence as perversion will be illegal.
Then they are wrong. People can judge people all day and it means nothing. People trying to relay vital information is another thing, and what God commands of us.
Actually John, I am being judged, and many are quite brazen in being the first to admit that.
According to the Christian bible, God's Word, and your admitted lifestyle, you are lost and will not inherit the kingdom of God. The Christian people here are not judging you, but simply telling you what God's word says. You can twist the meaning of the bible until your hearts content, but it will not change the mind of God, and where you wind up spending eternity.
Rolln, you are so very concerned with the positions of gay sex...how come?
John, I'm not lost, I'm just tired of people like you trying to tell me I am.
"Yea, no...that did nothing, but good attempt. Like I said, pray God's will be done, not yours."
Then you are lost. This according to God's word - not me or anyone else trying to help you here.
Mike -
You're way too much into yourself. It doesn't take rocket science to figure out gay sex in its orthodox position. My overall picture of gay sex vs hetero sex is that for their respective positions, gay sex can't even look at their partner in the eye (I wouldn't want to either as shameful as the it is) whereas heteros (missionary) position allows for ultimate intimacy.
Don't look into it too much - you tend to take many posts personally when those post are directed in a general and factual sense.
Well since you asked, you can do it missionary so as to look each other in the face, but are you implying that a husband and wife should only have sex face to face, because there are plenty of other positions where straights couples don't look at each other. Also, I don't need you assuming what kinds of sex I have. It shows how little you do know about me, but you seem very content to guess and condemn me based on those guesses.
Mike -
Gay sex (I'm sure you practice this with your supposed partner) is so rife with perversion that when you involve yourself with this activity, you can't even look at your partner. The actual design of gay sex allows you to not be able to be face to face. Whereas hetero sex in it's orthodox form is the ultimate intimacy.
Well, its clear you have fun playing God and have already made up your mind about me without really knowing me, so if you feel that is justified then go ahead. I know its not the truth and its a foolish judgment, but you've made it clear you have a burning need to judge others by jumping to conclusions. I'm sorry that you cant love your neighbor as yourself, because I doubt you'd want to be talked about it such a way.
mike-
You keep saying how all we know about you is that you're gay. Actually, this says a lot about someone. Somewhere along the way you had to cross the barrier of knowing and ACTING on your gayness. This is deviant behavior. A perversion of God's plan for you. Therefore you'd be a deviated pervert in the minds of most Christians and God Himself. In short, you're a prideful sinner who is trying to convince yourself you're a Christian. You claim Christianity in hopes of trying to rid the guilt that you are living with.
Yea, no...that did nothing, but good attempt. Like I said, pray God's will be done, not yours.
Ro 1:27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
Ro 1:31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
Ro 1:32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
Ro 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Ro 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools
Ro 1:24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
Ro 1:26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
Ac 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Ac 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
Ac 8:22 Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee.
I know enough to offer these verses to help you through this. God's words from the KJV.
Please pray that God's will be done, not yours. I hate when people decide who needs to be saved and for what sins. You don't know me other than the fact that I am gay. That is such a small part of who I am, please wake up and realize that.
There is not much point to this other than to say I pray that you will see the truth, be saved, and join the family of God someday before it is too late.
What is laughable is how one can pretend to know their faith without truly studying the history surrounding it. Ignorance is bliss, and some aren't willing to work hard enough because it might just shatter their faith (I'm talking about you folks claiming Biblical infallibility.)
The only twisting going on in the world today is the twisting of God's word into saying sin is no longer sin. How one can twist Romans 1:27 into not saying what it says is almost laughable.
Same to you if you continue doing whatever you can to lie and twist your oponent's words.
Mike - yes, some of the words and phrases are different today compared to 2000 years ago, but moral absolutes are just that - absolutes, and will never change because man thinks they are outdated.
Science hasn't proved your theory and never will (if it remain objective)...what will you say then?
I believe I have shown my beliefs are not "fragile" but strong and worth dying for.
Yours is very weak:
Depending as you do that the bible doesn't condemn your sin and the hope science will declare you blameless for your perversion. You can see why people condemn themselves to hell...what can God do for you when you abandon the truth for a lie?
Enjoy your life here, mike, while you still have breath...this existence is the only heaven you'll ever experience if you persist in your unbelief.
No, blissful ignorance would be people who know what science has proven but refuse to accept it because they can't think critically enough about their beliefs. If your beliefs are so fragile that truly thinking about science, not just brushing it off as being biased towards gays, then your beliefs have a serious problem.
"blissful ignorance"? Kind of describes your faith in the fallability of God's Word and the hope that somehow science will vindicate your claim of being "born this way". Eh?
Degrees; jealousy and grudges, just speed-bumps....no repentance; spiritual death.
To a degree yes. I think jealousy, grudges, and blissful ignorance hinder many lives as well.
The only thing that "hinders lives" is UNREPENTANCE.
Not with a carnal mind, and I'm not sure what your fascination with that word is. Putting the Bible in historical context help us better understand what is actually being talked about. Just imagine you get to Heaven and God tells you that the entire time you were wrong about gays and actually hindered their lives by refusing them marriage or adoption, all because you misinterpreted Romans? Everyone interprets the Bible, whether you do so literally or as a puzzle with multiple pieces to bring it together (history being one of them.)
why would you need historical knowledge when your only aim is to interpret with a carnal mind the written Word without the Spirit of God?
The Holy Spirit trumps the carnal mind and any interpretations man may come up with.
I can read something and convince (to believe) myself it's meaning to be diametrically opposed to clear,literal sense...but that would mean I have a learning disability to say the least.
The meaning of God's Word is in no way subject to everyman's interpretation of it; in order to achieve understanding of the Word of God is through the Living Holy Spirit.
You know a different spirit and believe an interpretation.
"If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth.
But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin." (1John 1:6,7)
Delight, the Bible certainly can apply today, but knowing the history in which it was written helps us understand it and that understanding forces us to maybe change how we interpret the Bible. You refuse to do that because it would mean changing a significant part of your belief system.
Mike...something else you don't understand about the Bible and God;
Regardless of the historical times in which it was penned; the Word of God is alive. The Author lives today and speaks to submiited Christians through His Holy Spirit.
Your lifestyle disqualifies you from knowing the life in the words of the Bible.
I will be John, and historical context means putting the Bible in the context in which is was written. When we write, we do so through a current world view. Paul was writing through a first century world view, drastically different than our 2009 world view. It is important to know what was going on around him and to know his reasons for writing to the specific groups, and he was writing to warn them against the practices of the Pagans, some of which included same sex orgies as a form of worship. Paul wasn't writing for an audience 2,000 years later which makes it absurd that people try to use his words as such.
What historical context? Is that a code phrase for twisting the meaning of Gods word? How clear can a verse be? You just go ahead and continue in your "lifestyle" and say anything you want about the meaning of the bible, but be prepared one day to explain yourself to the Lord.
Romans 1:27 will suffice. Reading the Bible without its historical context is quite simple and I think an insult to the magnificent brain you were given.
Homosexual activity IS a sin. Romans 1:27 is one of many verses that says so. You either believe what the bible says, or you are totally free not to. Your choice.
I am afraid you might have to reveal a verse to prove that statement of only condone "orgies and rape",Mike.
No, actually, not as we know it. The Bible talks about lusting and orgies, but never about a committed gay relationship which is a horse of a different color.
Sin is Sin , but Homosexuality fit into that category of Sin because the Bible identifies it as such.
Sin is sin, but homosexuality is not a majority rule issue.
It is obvious from these discussions that different people interpret the bible in different ways. But regardless of how we humans do that, it still says what it says, and in the majority of it, quite clearly. It tells us what is right and what is wrong, how we should live and how we should not live. No matter how you twist the words, sin will always be sin.
Gr8, but the Bible is a book, fundamentally, and we interpret books. We interpret the word of God, and obviously that's going to happen in relation to one's life experience.
We do have an understanding of how God looks at life and death and everything in betwwen, which is in his manuscript, THE BIBLE, Mike.
It is true we can not understand the mind of God. That is why God gave us his word - the bible - which tells us how we should live.
We cannot understand God's mind, so that question is somewhat irrelevant. All we have to go on are man's attempts to interpret through their life experience and education on the subject.
Gentlemen, when it comes to the present subject , there are may views and opinions based on the emotion state of the person expressing the view, but what is truly factural, Gods understanding of the matter or Man's??????
John....there is no point in this discussion because you can't have it honestly. Yes, I do think Lev. is absurd, and if you stop to think, so do you, as I doubt you follow each and every word of it. Its just too convenient for you to use the one part of Lev. out of a sea of absurdities that allows you to condemn me.
I don't see much point in this discussion. I am a Christian who believes and respects the word of God. You are claiming that what the bible clearly calls an abomination is "OK" with God, and referring to the bible as garbage in one of your posts. I would have better luck trying to convince someone that the surface of the sun is ice cold than to continue with this.
I am amazed that you could make that supposition seeing as how you don't know me or anything about me. I am questioning your beliefs, as I strongly doubt you follow each and every law of Lev., but that doesn't mean I don't believe in the Bible and I don't believe I've said anything that would lead you to believe I "promote" any kind of "behavior." Get yourself in check, my Christian buddy!
"So its the inspired word of God that men should not shave their beards, trim their sideburns, eat non-kosher meat, plant more than 1 crop per field, wear clothing of more than one material, etc? "
If it's in the bible, it is the inspired word of God. Obviously you do not believe what the bible says which is not surprising since you promote behavior that is clearly condemned as an abomination. All I can say is I pray you will find the truth someday.
weekenderman:
why don't you post your 'facts'? And with the millions of dollars that were spent to get prop. 8 passed, you're saying that all the poor were not in need at that point in time?
Poor mburkel, doesn't even bother to look up the FACTS and discover that it's evangelical Christians who are doing the most to help the homeless, the hungry and the adulturers of this world.
"If it seems that we devote an inordinate amount of time addressing that it is because an inordinate amount of time is given to promotion of homosexuality."
Please, if you had another minority that you could step on to raise some cash at the collection plate, we won't be first in line. How funny that 'curing' that 1% (as you report we are) of the population is soo important to fufilling God's word. Forget about the homeless, the hungry, the adulturers; some how stopping this small percentage of people and setting them straight is doing Gods work. Really... What a strange God you worship.
Mike: If you even tried to understand the Bible in context, you would realize that God has dealt with humankind differently in the Old Testament (when people were judged based on their works) and in the New Testament (when they were -- and are -- forgiven through the grace of Jesus' sacrifice on the cross).
Each of the Old Testament "rules" you homos love to mention were done away with when Christ did away with the old law, yet the Lord Himself reaffirmed the roles of men and women in the New Testament age (see the words of Jesus Himself, or the words of the Apostle Paul in Romans).
Homo sex was sin back then, and it's still sin now. As Christians we warn people against continuing to live in their sin, and we warn them because we love them and want them to live lives that are truly happier (more gay, but not in the perverted sense).
So its the inspired word of God that men should not shave their beards, trim their sideburns, eat non-kosher meat, plant more than 1 crop per field, wear clothing of more than one material, etc?
The "garbage" as you call it is the inspired word of God. Your last comment speaks volumes.
Well, its moreso the garbage around that verse that makes that one hard to swallow.
If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.
What part of this verse is not understood?
Its not changing the word of God. What's funny is that that word of God has been changed by your breed to justify their beliefs (i.e. adding in the word homosexual when the original word was translated as effeminate, which are not actually one in the same!)
I pray for those so arrogant they think they can change the Word of God to suit their sinful lives. This is nothing short of blasphemy which will be answered for before the Lord one day.
I pray for those so arrogant they think the word was written to put them on a pedestal.
2 Timothy 4
1 I charge you therefore before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who will judge the living and the dead at His appearing and His kingdom: 2 Preach the word! Be ready in season and out of season. Convince, rebuke, exhort, with all longsuffering and teaching. 3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; 4 and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables. 5 But you be watchful in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry.
Pray for those who need to hear His word.
"I have spent hundreds of hours conversing with Biblical scholars on the issues of homosexuality in the Bible."
So you now consider your pets to be "biblical scholars"? I think you got DOG backwards, buddy!
For those of you who insist on using the bible to condemn homosexuality -I urge you to read this:
http://www.newsweek.com/id/172653/page/1
Ender, its not a sin, and I have spent hundreds of hours conversing with Biblical scholars on the issues of homosexuality in the Bible. If you read the Bible as it is today, yes, you would think homosexuality is mentioned, but the word itself was interpreted into the Bible! If you go and study Corinthians, for example, and REALLY talk about the historical context, it is blatantly clear that Paul is talking about temple prostitution as a ritualistic, idolatry act. Love between two men, even if its expressed sexually, is not an evil thing. There is no greed or lust between my partner and I (or at least we strive to be as best we can just like any straight couple I know.)
I worry for a country where citizens know more about their favorite sports team than they do their religion, their God or the scriptures that support it. Many gay marriage supporters point out that the Bible does not expressly ban nor condone gay marriage. While its opposition point out verses that do label it as a sin.
Yet this is the basis for the seekers of gay marriage, it might not be a sin. That's a flimsy bit of reasoning to risk your soul on. Are a few decades (at best) of sin worth an eternity in hell?
We Americans research what vehicle we will buy. We check websites, magazines, and ask friends about makes and models. We spend hours often every week or month doing this for current and future purchases. But yet we invest very little time in the Bible or in prayer with God. Is your soul less important than your new car? Your next Ipod or computer? America is experiencing an economic meltdown from its investment in impractical, immoral, or illogical policies and businesses. Do we want to do the same with our souls? Few retiring senior citizens are risky with their retirement funds, they play it safe because the consequences could be disasterous. Shouldn't we abide by God's laws in the same manner? After all, none of us knows when our last day will be.
Elbib, all you do is accuse! The Bible is not written plain and simple. Jesus did not speak plain and simple. We have been blessed with wonderful minds, and to take everything at face value is simply absurd. I do not think I am superior to God, but you seem content accusing me of such so you can feel superior to me.
Mike: Your the one that said that "God gave us a mind to think critically." So if you want to believe something that Scripture does not support, then, your critical thoughts are superior to God's. This was the same mindset the devil convinced Eve to embrace. It's not hard to judge someone who has this kind of philosophy. The Scripture is full of examples. It's defined as idolatry, pride, fleshly lust, carnality. I can't help it that you place yourself in that position through all that you say on the myriad of threads. Your mistake, outside of having this philosophy of mind, is to tie love together with sexual intimacy. Just because you have the one doesn't mean that the other is automatic. It is regulated based on the instruction given in God's Word. But, I'm sure, in your critical thoughts, you will find a way to dispute this truth and convince yourself otherwise.
Elbib, you know nothing of me, yet you assume to much. I guess you never sin since you feel so free to judge me.
Yeh, Mike22685 is a critical thinker. His suppositions supersede God's Word. He is another Eve. He will eat from the tree even though God says to do otherwise.
no. not really. but thanks for your concern.
jester in the Kings court
'this guy' who wrote the article you are referring to is named Lillian.
Looks like you have more to worry about than homosexuals huh!
you know...this guy didn't have to write an entire article on getting the whole story out about homosexuality. i can do that in one sentence.
its a sin.
and that's the whole story. :-)
Mike: I am not ignoring your comments. But when God has something to say to a person, whether or not they receive it, then it's time to move on. You have continually trampled His Holy Word. You do not want the Truth. I pray for God to open your eyes and turn your heart to Him before it is too late for you. I's up to you whether or not to receive. There is a day of reckoning and it is coming quickly.
SMBGA, yes, I do think I am going to heaven, and I do not think it is your place to tell me whether I am or not. Prophet, I've already answered where I get my definition of effeminate, and I very clearly asked YOU whether it was a sin for men to be gentle, which I see you ignored and rather pretended that's what I was asserting.
Homosexuality is not an abomination. It is not a perversion of love. It is love just as real and kind and gentle as the love my parents have for one another. My partner and I care about each other through all aspects of life, and I know that someday you will pay dearly for twisting the Bible to your own devices rather than living out the greatest rule: to love. Plain and simple.
malechi;
If the legal system of the US was of christian heritage, the bible & gods law would be taught in every school, mandatory. -- answer, they were until the early 1900s
In fact teaching religion is illegal! The US legal system & laws are no place for religious agenda. --answer, If only you were right; our scools are indoctrinating the religions of humanism and Marxism
Christian judgement of non christians is not only hypocritical (by your OWN standards) --
answer; In the public square Christians are judging and supporting the right morals and fighting sinful laws, not individuals.
Homosexuality is NOT a crime -- answer; in God's eyes the behavior is an abomination and leads to certain death. God loves the sinner as we are all sinners and God invites everybody to believe in His Son and repent of their sinful ways to have eternal life.
I would agree with you. But sin is a big issue in our country. It's what will bring our country to it's knees. As we're discovering about our own greed. Add to that pornography, alcoholism, homosexuality, adultery, and rampant divorce. All of which no one seems to have a problem with. Oh well. It's all part of the plan. Don't worry. Homosexuality and their marriages will eventually be "accepted". Then they will turn their sights on Christianity and make it a hate crime to speak out against it. Then the Bible will censored. And incest marriages will come in some point in there. And the country will sink further into immorality. And people will smile like a rat basking in the warmth of freshly fallen cow feces. Hey...as long as they're warm and happy, who cares what it is.
While i have enjoyed the exchanges on this site, I'll have to make this my last as I am having trouble posting...
I can only try to restate my original post in simpler terms...
If the legal system of the US was of christian heritage, the bible & gods law would be taught in every school, mandatory. IT IS NOT. In fact - teaching religion is illegal! The US legal system & laws are no place for religious agenda. Homosexuality is NOT a crime - & so gay marriage (the legal contract) should also be legalized.
Christian judgement of non christians is not only hypocritical (by your OWN standards) - it is also totally irrelevant to those you judge! Stop wasting your time & energy! (Honestly - the christian obsession with homosexuals at the moment is getting REALLY creepy).
The sooner you people open your minds & hearts and stop this pointless crusade - the sooner the world will be able to solve the REAL problems our planet faces.
Peace.
Mike: do you believe that you are going to spend eternity with God?
MIke,
And where do you get your definition of effeminate?
So it's a sin to be nurturing and gentle. Even though the Bible tells us to be gentle.
Having sex with a man is a female quality, because that is the way nature/God created it. I see no child bearing organs on a man. Homosexuality, in nature, is an anomaly, a defect. It was not the way nature/God intended it to be. How do I know? Common sense. A man has the proper "tool" that is designed for the "tool" that a woman has.
The love that homosexuals profess is a perverted love. It is not the love that God created.
No, I don't really think that's a "quality" as much as it is something women do. Also, you are assuming that having sex with men is a feminine quality because in your mind that is the only way (when in fact there are gays and lesbians. Also, are lesbians not condemned since they are being masculine by your standards?) A feminine quality is more like gentle, emotional, nurturing, etc.
Well, as you see from my last post...aving sex with a man is a feminine quality.
No need to type slower, just think a bit more clearly, thanks. My definition of effeminate is possessing traits traditionally associated with a feminine woman. Men having sex with each other is not effeminate, it is a very loving act (or at least it can be.) Again, is it a sin to be effeminate? Is it a sin for a man to cry easily or perform in a ballet? Those would both be considered effeminate by societal standards, right?
Nature created a woman to have sex with a man. A woman is a female. It is the female's part to have sex with a man. Therefore, having sex with a man is a female attribute.
Maybe I should type slower for you.
What is your definintion of effeminate?
Are you drinking right now? Your lost post was so incoherent I couldn't follow it. Please clarify. Also, would you care to explain how sex with another man is effeminate? I'd appreciate some clarity in this discussion.
There go interpreting "effeminate". Is this your definition of effeminate?:
"Effeminate is not a word."
I get that feeling.
Having sex with a man is effeminate.
Prophet, having sex with a man is not effeminate. Does it mean that God supports a gender binary? Should all men be brawny men and never cook or clean, since those are effeminate? Should men not like to plant flowers or perform in a ballet since that is effeminate? What an assertion you make!
Pastor Russ: are you in Florida?
HAWK49 - having problems posting more than 2 lines atm, so will have to get back 2 U another time. I'm either being censored or there's a technical problem...
Well, I for one am tired of the godless people forcing their views upon me.
malechi
enforce - to use force or constrain. Don't believe I have done this; but I have expressed my beliefs as best as I understand God's will. God's moral laws apply to everybody because He says so; I have only repeated what He says. He will enforce His laws on everybody come the day of judgement.
What Bible Study website did you get this stuff?
Where is this in the Bible? "you know it's a sin to forbid others to marry?"
...And have U ever felt anxious? That's a sin. - You're right about this being a sin, but what does the Bible say to do about this? What is the point you are trying to make of this particular issue?
Ever read your star sign? Big sin. (the death penalty no less) Is this still deserving of the death penalty or was the death penalty done away with under the covenant of grace?
Ever worn gold or pearls? Sin. Where in the Bible does it say this is a sin? Suggest you study the context and perhaps a commentary for the true meaning.
Ever had a beer? What a sin. Where in the Bible is this? What is the context?
"There's about 600 others you're saying the whole world HAS to follow" - Are these all moral laws or do they also consist of sacrifice, ceremony, ritual, liturgy, instructions, washings, convocations, holy days, observances, conditions, and warnings? Most of these I believe were given to only the Jews to follow before the covenant of grace through Jesus Christ. The reason for the laws was to demonstrate that no person could keep them and that there was a need for a Savior to offer eternal life as everybody is a law breaker and deserving of death.
You do have to put this stuff into context. Suggest you start with Romans and a commentary or two to gain some understanding of the context.
malechi,
LOL. Sorry. I was in a rather terse mood that day. My apologies.
Well im' starting to feel the love now! 3 different people being either insulting, condescending - or just being sarcastic!
Pastor Russ - You & i seem to be making the same point from opposite ends of the argument! I'm talking about the lack of legal equality - & so are you. So as far as i can tell we agree. Lovely.
HAWK49 - In true christian style you've contradicted yourself within a breath. You said 'I am not enforcing my beliefs on others' and in the message before you said 'God's laws apply to every one of His creatures (believers and unbelievers), not just to believers as some of you contend.' So, you're not enforcing your beliefs on others - but they apply because you say so. Hmm.
Oh and all those 'sins' i listed - i got them off a bible study website. I know you guys like to pick & choose & distort context whenever it suits your agenda - but my point was valid & hardly 'baseless, illiterate rhetoric' - but thanks anyway.
And finally - Prophet (i'm sure you are)...
it bothers ME when people leave remarks when they really have nothing to say - so i guess we're both bothered. (that's GOTTA be a sin!)
PEACE!
<<the question U asked is 'who exactly is denying these people the right to marry?' - which i assume is a rhetorical question as we both know it's the government.>>
Nobody is denying ANYONE the right to marry. EVERYONE has the SAME RIGHTS to marry. Therefore, NOBODY is denied their rights in this area. It is misleading and intellectually dishonest to suggest that "homosexuals" do not enjoy the same rights to marry as others. We all have EXACTLY THE SAME RIGHTS to marry!
The proposed marriage, however, has to be legal. In all jurisdictions in North America, it is illegal to marry a close relative or someone who is already married. In most jurisdictions, it is also illegal to marry someone who is of the same sex. Those who would like to do so are not denied their civil rights, for they have exactly the same civil rights as everyone else.
malechi,
You are correct, no one should idolize other gods, but rather have an eternal relationship with Jesus Christ. This is God's will for all mankind, His creation. Why do you have a problem allowing the Creator to call the shots and establish the order? However, 'should' is the operative word and everybody has a free-will to decide what religious path they'll follow. Most will take the path to destruction. I have a role to witness to the light of truth.
You said: "And if you're going to advocate his law so strongly - then why not follow ALL the rules??? Didn't you know it's a sin to forbid others to marry? And have U ever felt anxious? That's a sin. Ever read your star sign? Big sin. (the death penalty no less) Ever worn gold or pearls? Sin. Ever had a beer? What a sin. There's about 600 others you're saying the whole world HAS to follow"
This is rather baseless, illiterate rhetoric as it is applied out of context and misapplied to the most extent.
you said; "But we don't. And there's nothing you can do about it. So PLEASE stop enforcing your beliefs on others - because i wouldn't be surprised if THAT was also a sin!
I am not enforcing my beliefs on others, I am only expressing our God's truth and assuming my responsibilities as a citizen; neither is sinful. My expression is no different than what you are doing on this site except one conforms to truth and the other doesn't. You got your religion and you're trying to convince others to believe and adhere to your religion. It all depends on whose religion conforms to truth and reality. I've accepted that all truth and reality is found in the Bible and based on belief in Jesus Christ.
It bothers me when people offer peace, when they really have none to offer.
No HAWK49 No.
By your argument, no one of any other religion should be able to get married - in fact no one should be able to PRACTICE any other religion.
See how confining the argument of 'But it's God's law' becomes?
And if you're going to advocate his law so strongly - then why not follow ALL the rules??? Didn't you know it's a sin to forbid others to marry? And have U ever felt anxious? That's a sin. Ever read your star sign? Big sin. (the death penalty no less) Ever worn gold or pearls? Sin. Ever had a beer? What a sin. There's about 600 others you're saying the whole world HAS to follow.
But we don't. And there's nothing you can do about it. So PLEASE stop enforcing your beliefs on others - because i wouldn't be surprised if THAT was also a sin!
Peace.
Besides God designing the structure and institution of marriage as that between one man and one woman He also instituted government (Romans 13) to do His bidding on earth (ie: protect those that are good and punish those that do evil). God clearly defines what is evil throughout scripture. Homosexual behavior is definitely a sinful (evil) activity found in NT and OT. It is proper for government to uphold God's moral law, just as with murder, stealing, lying, beastiality, polygamy, sexual relations with close relatives, etc. His nature and character remain constant, He is not and can not be arbitrary. We, as true Christian believers in the USA, have the responsibility to vote for laws and politicians that best reflect God's will.
God's laws apply to every one of His creatures (believers and unbelievers), not just to believers as some of you contend.
Pastor Russ,
the question U asked is 'who exactly is denying these people the right to marry?' - which i assume is a rhetorical question as we both know it's the government.
the important question is WHY? and the answer is because of preasure & lobbying done largely by the christian community. So forgive me (father) if i direct my blame in the direction of the church, but THAT'S the truth.
Hopefully one day we will all truly be equal, in the eyes of God AND each other.
Peace.
malakos/effeminate means a male who submits his body to unnatural lewdness.
arsenokoites/abusers of themselves with mankind means one who lies with a male as with a female.
The verse reads as follows:
1 Corinthians 6:9 (King James Version)
9Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate (greek "malakoi'), nor abusers of themselves with mankind (greek "arsenokoitai")
feet,
The word that some versions of the Bible use as "homosexual" is actually properly translated as "effeminate", of which having sex with a man is an effeminate feature.
feet,
Actually the literally english translation for "abusers of themselves with mankind (kjv)" from greek is "arsenos" meaning male and "koiten" meaning intercourse, which Paul created into the compound word "arsenokoitai" in 1 Cor.
I would agree that, the law that anyone caught in same-sex intercourse was made by men; either OT or King Henry.
Self-abuse, though, I agrue, is referred in this verse as doing that which is unnatural to and with your body.
I argue, also, that God is referring to the act being shameful in His sight, not simply that the act itself would cause the person to feel shame. Although, that happens as well.
Shame is not exclusive to homosexual acts, although, not all heterosexual acts are shameful. Just those that violate God's design for sexual relations between and man and woman. Any man and woman that violate God's design are equally guilty of sinning against God.
All the fruits of the Spirit are meant to be in agreement with God's natural design and will for His creation.
God's Will has been from the beginning and been carried throughout His Word and continues even today until His Son comes back.
1tim along with 1cor. the original greek translated into english is "malebed" how does an inanimate object become animate person. the original translation into english, before it was transposed in the 1800's with the word " homosexual"(which did not exist until the 1800's) was " abusers of themselves with mankind,"(kjv).
(the transposers left no written explanation for their transposition. however the transposition originated in england where there is no seperation of church and state, and king henry instituted a law in the 1500's that sexual acts committed between 2 of the same sex should be punishable by hanging. this remained on the books for 400 years).
there is no credible evidence that gives any indication that homosexuality has anything to do with self abuse.
self abuse engenders shame which engenders self loathing and self hatred. i know no characterization given to homosexuals compared to heterosexuals of being more self hating.
how would the internationmal gay pride movement, been so widely accepted if this were true? is it your testimony that all homosexuals you have had fellowship with, who have pride in their orientation are filled with deceit, delusion, or denial compared to heterosexuals?
in short, show me the words in genesis that says sodom was destroyed because of homosexuality.
there are those among you ask me to show them where scripture promotes gay marriage. how is this any different from the non existence verses about homsexuality being a sin?
others have mention romans. it is about shame based lust. is shame based lust not a sin among heterosexuals as well? do relations motivated by shame based lust have any kinship with those that are marital and are motivated by love and commitment.
does the incestial sex of 2samuel and the adulterous sex of 1samuel that motivated murder, condemn heterosexuality...................then why it be true of homosexuality?
jesus said we would "recognize them by their fruit."
is the fruit(as in the fruit of the spirit ,gal5) of relations motivated by commitment and love the same as those motivated by shamebased lust(rom 1) ( meaning they are full of self abuse(1cor and 1tim) and self hatred)
and lastly in lev, not all prohibitions of themselves were sins....................numbers 15:32-36.(household chores on the sabbath) and other things that were sanctioned are now intolerable sins(ethnic slavery and burning witches at the stake)
frank, the church is not a building. The church is folks living out God's Word. We did not step outside anything. We are everywhere. We are to reflect Him in everything we do and say.
Homosexuality is a sin. And those who practice it will not inherit the Kingdom of God.
malechi,
The word used in I Corinthians Chapter 6 is "malakos", which is Greek for "effeminate".
And true, I am using it in the context as it is used today....just as I use the word "murder", "lying", "fornication", "adultery", "stealing", "envy", "bitterness", in the context it is used today. I guess you're right though. We should re-evaluate what each of those mean.
Wait, the humanists already have. Never mind.
The reason why the Christian faith is getting so much negative response is not so much because they do not agree with same-sex marriage but instead its because they have stepped outside of the church and want to push their own believes on others.
If the Christian faith does not agree with gay marriages then don't have them, preventing others from getting married who do not share your believes is going too far.
<<People of all faiths - religious & non religious - the world over - are granted the legal right to marry. There is NO reason that 2 people of the same sex should be denied the same right>>
Who, exactly, is denying these people the right to marry? They have the same rights to marry as anyone else. The proposed marriage, however, does have to be legal under the jurisdiction in which the wedding will take place. Where I live and work, people cannot marry a close relative and they cannot marry a second person while still married to their first spouse. Those who want to do so are not denied the rights given to others. Every person seeking to be married has to obey the law and the same rules and regulations as established by the government.
feetxxxl,
I do not point out the verses concerning homosexuality, because I do not know them by heart and others are able to do so. But the Old and New Testament both point out that homosexuality is a sin. Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13, 1 Timothy 1:10. and 1 Corinthians 6:9 are examples that I am aware of. The only reason for that is a recent discussion with my wife.
Mike,
The entire chapter of 1Corinthians 7 speaks of the state of marriage for Christians; it speaks of a mans (husbands) responsibility to his wife (a woman) and a womans responsibility to her husband (a man). In this chapter where Christian marriage is the focal point; why do we not read of same sex unions? Perhaps, it is because scripture already condemn it as a sin . . . Roman 1 & 1Corinthians 6:9.
Effeminate as used in 1 Cor. is translated from the Greek word malakos meaning a male who submits his body to unnatural lewdnss.
As well as homosexuals or abusers of themselves with mankind which is translated from the greek word arsenokoites which means one who lies with a male as with a female. What I understand is this greek word is a compound word created by Paul in 1 Cor. to draw understanding from the Old Testament greek words arsenos (male) and koiten (intercourse).
Here's the problem.
Not everyone is a christian so god's truth is only relevant to his believers. Not everyone IS a believer!
And marriage is NOT exclusively FOR christians.
People of all faiths - religious & non religious - the world over - are granted the legal right to marry. There is NO reason that 2 people of the same sex should be denied the same right.
And to 'Prophet' - the word 'effeminate', in reality, can only be used in it's current social context - so what you're saying is just not relevant. (Anyway it was a Latin word - not Greek one) Might I suggest U add a dictionary to your book shelf.
The original Greek uses the word "effeminate" which is what homosexuals are. Very womanly in the fact that they have sex with men.
Mike22685,
Which version of the Bible do you use?
Mike,
Why do you continue to ignore Gods explicit words concerning this matter? Same sex unions are condemned in scripture . . . period.
Pastor, funny, in my Bible Corinthians doesn't mention the word homosexual. I wonder who put it in there, especially since homosexual wasn't a word when the Bible was written.
<<maybe you can do what others have been unable. explain how the word of scripture say that homosexuality is a sin.>>
A positive approach -- Gen. 1:27, "So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them." The marriage relationship in its fullness as expressed between a woman and man reflects the glory of God. A homosexual "marriage" does not reflect God's glory.
Thus, the negative approach... God says in Lev. 18:22, "Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable." While admittedly there are other laws in that book that we no longer adhere to, notably, the dietary laws, this still expresses God's design for human sexuality.
This is affirmed in 1 Cor. 6:8-10, "Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God."
Seems pretty clear to me.
Hard,
I understand what you have stated and agree with it to some degree but my question: Do you believe Jesus' words to be rigid and unyielding and un-American was asked to point out that Christians believe and accept the scriptures to be the word of God and therefore cannot support anything contrary to it. Would you fault other faiths that faithfully adhere to their sacred books as well? What bothered me was the indoctrination of same sex marriage from the homosexual community to children in kindergarten, 1st & 2nd grades, whats up with that?
I am not not trying to impose my nor Biblical beliefs on anyone. I merely ask that you do impose the legalization of sin upon me. I have never referred to anyone as an abomination, and have tried not to degrade anyone either. If I have then I apologize, and please point out any such arrogance on my part. I don't ask that you do so so that I can argue, but so I can correct such behavior in myself.
I never set out to change anyones mind here. I simply wanted to offer my point of view. It is obvious that most of you on here are Christian/bible robots who care more about imposing Biblical teaching on non believers than about liberty and freedom for all. Count yourselves blessed, and I am certain you do, that none of you are a minority in the U.S.A. because if you were then you might have more empathy. I wish the best for all of you. I will not be back here. I need all of my energy to run my fruitful life for the good of my beautiful family (the one you think is an abomination). buh-bye.
feet,
Are you ever going to answer this question:
Can you post a text that explicitly speaks of the marriage state between same sex couples?
feet, before I answer your question please define homosexuality?
(I am not saying you are going to kill anyone, but the mindset is similarly rigid and unyielding and un-American in my opinion).
Do you believe Jesus' words to be rigid and unyielding and un-American?
my apologies hardworker, i meant to address ender.
hardworker
maybe you can do what others have been unable. explain how the word of scripture say that homosexuality is a sin.
jesus said he came to fulfill every stroke of the law. why do believers think they can ignore one stroke and accentuate another?
do you understand the concept that, regardless who inspired the law, written word always requires interpretation..............an interpretation requires an interpretator........... the interpretotr is "i". and this personal interpretation it will be influenced by every essence of that person, which includes the culture he identifies with and his life experiences.
Hardworker40,
I was in your shoes until a few years ago (I used many of your arguments and words in debates with friends and online). I am an avid reader and I had always claimed to be a Christian. But I had never read the Bible, so I did read it and reread it and continue to do so. But if I am to be Christian, then I am to follow the laws and principles laid out in the Old Testament and fulfilled in the New Testament. We are to love God above all else, if any should love mother, brother, or anything else more then he is not worthy. These words were spoken by Christ. I do not advocate violence towards anyone, but if loving Christ above all else makes me an extremists then I will happily be called one. But If I follow the example of Christ and try to get others to reach out to Christ, how does that make me similar to extremists who advocate nad try to kill any who disagree with them? I do not wish harm on anyone. I want them to reach and find Christ, and find the same peace that I now have. But I can not support the legalization of sin. For Christ said wide is the path to destruction. And sin is the destruction and death of man. If we are to truly be Christians then we are to obey God, because Christ said he came to call sinners to repentence. And Christ died for all of us, not merely Israel ( a nationality), nor only for a particular race or gender.
"Hastings College of the Law"
No doubt someone from Hastings would say such things since many who have served on the court (which wants to review Prop 8) have graduated from Hastings. Sounds like Hastings teaches judicial tyranny. I guess that goes with being part of the U of Cal.
I prefer democracy. Until you can prove (prove being the key word here) that you are born gay it will not be a civil right.
History does offer any number of court decisions and federal mandates that marked radical steps forward in the struggles of women and ethnic minorities. More fundamentally, the principle that Americans of all creeds and colors are protected against the tyranny of the majority is dear to anyone who bothered to pay attention in a high-school level U.S. history class. "The whole purpose of putting protections for minorities into the constitution is to protect them from the transient will of the majority," says Joseph Grodin, a professor at Hastings College of the Law. "And that's the whole purpose of judicial review."
This too will be the path of our right to marry. So one day, it will be protected. That is the beauty of our constitution. Time is on the side of eventual equality. The blacks had to wait, the women had to wait, and so to shall we wait. I will marry the love of my life as did my father and his.
"we too have rights on U.S. soil outside of your church"
Again, marriage is not a civil right. It is a civil liberty. The right to marry is not protected by the Constitution.
hard, sometimes I read too fast and I just now noticed your reference to domestic partnership laws.
hard, I do appreciate some of the concerns you've shared, but why not strengthen the domestic partnership laws to allow for the same legal rights and benefits for any two people living together and providing for each other regardless of their gender and sexual orientation or whether or not they are sexually intimate with one another?
Believer-
Well, all I can say is I have voiced my side here. I respect your opinions and views. Be a strong Christian example, by all means. But just remember that all families deserve protection in our nation, even ones that look different than yours. Please support domestic partnership at the very least. Civil rights are for all, not just some. As I said before, all minority groups have had to fight for equal treatment under the laws of the great nation. Not under the laws of the bible, but of this great nation. You should be thankful that we do not have a Muslim majority here or else you would walking be in my shoes. Be devout, but be fair. That may mean respecting the laws as they change over the next 15 years. My family is just as dear to me as yours is to you. You cannot fault me for standing up for that principle as an American. May the spirit of God always guide your heart and conscience.
hard, I can't answer for ender but in many ways I believe the same, I am first and foremost a child of God and then an American. God paid a price that no one else could pay when He allowed His Son to go to the Cross for my sins so that I could become a child of God, a Christian. Even though I could never pay Him back I owe Him my all, all I am and all I possess. As a Christian I served in the military for 21+ years and I believe as a result of being a Christian it has helped me to be an even better American and citizen of this nation that God has so richly blessed in many ways so that in turn we can be a blessing to others.
hard, it's not about liking or disliking homosexuals it's about protecting God's original and only design for marriage and sexual intimacy. And as a matter of fact I have worked with homosexuals and consider some of them friends to this day. But at the same time my respect and friendship for them or anyone else does not go so far as to disregard God's teachings and commands found in the Word of God on not only the issues of marriage and sexual intimacy but any of His other teachings and commands as well. My personal desire is like God to continue to love the sinner but hate the sin.
Ender says that he is a Christian first. And that his nationality is irrelevant to God as is my form of government. Ender, that sounds like the extremists we are fighting in the Middle East right now. I do not understand how you do not see that. I am not saying you are going to kill anyone, but the mindset is similarly rigid and unyielding and un-American in my opinion. Put yourself in my shoes. I do not even think you can.
Sorry, I am having trouble with my postings coming through completely. Here is one more try.
Ender- When it comes to this country and making decisions about the rights of my fellow Americans, then yes country and constitutional ideals about freedom are on my mind above God AT THAT POINT. God reigns my heart and home. Principles of personal freedom and liberty reign this country. It is that very freedom that allows you to worship as you choose freely and follow the path of your own heart. These are beautiful things indeed. So you should follow your convictions as you see fit. I have grown up in a fine Christian home with a mother and a father and 2 siblings. I have been raised in this country (OUR country). I have been taught your values and the importance of marriage and then am denied the right to form my own family because folks do not think I should do that. I respect your freedom to worship and live your life how you choose. However, democracy is for voting our leaders to office and not for limiting civil rights. If a person votes a certain way because of his/her religious beliefs, to the detriment of another persons civil rights, then I am sorry, but those people are not embodying the American spirit. In my opinion, those people are no better than religious extremists who dictate that the world should bend to his/her own personal view of what his/her bible or torah or Quran says God wants. You will never find me voting against your freedoms. I would defend your rights to the death. You are my American brother. As your rights go, so go mine.
Ender says, “I am a Christian first. My nationality is irrelevant to God as is my form of government.†Ender that sounds like the extremists we are fighting in the Middle East right now. I do not understand how you do not see that. I am not saying you are going to kill anyone, but the mindset is similarly rigid and unyielding and un-American in my opinion. Put yourself in my shoes. I do not even think you can.
Sorry, I am having trouble with my postings coming through completely. Here is another try.
Ender- When it comes to this country and making decisions about the rights of my fellow Americans, then yes country and constitutional ideals about freedom are on my mind above God AT THAT POINT. God reigns my heart and home. Principles of personal freedom and liberty reign this country. It is that very freedom that allows you to worship as you choose freely and follow the path of your own heart. These are beautiful things indeed. So you should follow your convictions as you see fit. I have grown up in a fine Christian home with a mother and a father and 2 siblings. I have been raised in this country (OUR country). I have been taught your values and the importance of marriage and then am denied the right to form my own family because folks don’t think I should do that. I respect your freedom to worship and live your life how you choose. However, democracy is for voting our leaders to office and not for limiting civil rights. If a person votes a certain way because of his/her religious beliefs, to the detriment of another persons civil rights, then I am sorry, but those people are not embodying the American spirit. In my opinion, those people are no better than religious extremists who dictate that the world should bend to his/her own personal view of what his/her bible or torah or Quran says God wants. You will never find me voting against your freedoms. I would defend your rights to the death. You are my American brother. As your rights go, so go mine.
Ender says, “I am a Christian first. My nationality is irrelevant to God as is my form of government.†Ender that sounds like the extremists we are fighting in the Middle East right now. I do not understand how you do not see that. I am not saying you are going to kill anyone, but the mindset is similarly rigid and unyielding and un-American in my opinion. Put yourself in my shoes. I do not even think you can.
Ender and believer (and anyone else who cares to understand another point of view),
I am not trying to change your minds about gay people I am only trying to bring to light that we too have rights on U.S. soil outside of your church and your personal religious convictions. It does not REALLY matter who voted for the bans. It was simply a blow for equality in the U.S. (civil rights are for everyone, even people you may not agree with or personally like). I would be fine with domestic partnership that would guarantee all of the same protections and rights as marriage. Unfortunately no one is willing to even throw us a bone there either. I would not expect nor ask a tax paying, law abiding heterosexual person to unite for life with a member of the same sex and start a family. Why would he/she ever do that? Why should I be afforded any less with the person I am in love with for 10 years now? This is why we stand up and fight for the equal treatment under the law as many groups have in the history of this nation. Nothing is ever just handed to a minority group. So be it.
Ender- When it comes to this country and making decisions about the rights of my fellow Americans, then yes Country and constitutional ideals about freedom are on my mind above God AT THAT POINT. God reigns my heart and home. Principles of personal freedom and liberty reign this country. It is that very freedom that allows you to worship as you choose freely and follow the path of your own heart. These are beautiful things indeed. So you should follow your convictions as you see fit. I have grown up in a fine Christian home with a mother and a father and 2 siblings. I have been raised in this country (my country that I love). I have been taught your values and the importance of marriage and then am denied the right to form my own family because folks don’t think I should do that. I respect your freedom to worship and live your life how you choose. However, democracy is for voting our leaders to office and not for limiting civil rights. If a person votes a certain way because of his/her religious beliefs, to the detriment of another persons civil rights, then I am sorry but those people are not embodying the American spirit. In my opinion those people are no better than religious extremists who dictate that the world should bend to his/her own personal view of what his/her Bible or Torah or Quran says God wants. You will never find me voting against your freedoms. I would defend your rights to the death. You are my American brother. As your rights go, so go mine.
Ender says, “I am a Christian first. My nationality is irrelevant to God as is my form of government.†Boy, Ender that sounds like the extremists we are fighting in the Middle East right now. I don’t understand how you do not see that. I’m not saying you are going to kill anyone, but the mindset is similarly rigid and unyielding and un-American in my opinion. Put yourself in my shoes. I do not even think you can.
Ender and believer (and anyone else who cares to understand another point of view),
I am not trying to change your minds about gay people I am only trying to bring to light that we too have rights on U.S. soil outside of your church and your personal religious convictions. It does not REALLY matter who voted for the bans. It was simply a blow for equality in the U.S. (civil rights are for everyone, even people you may not agree with or personally like). I would be fine with domestic partnership that would guarantee all of the same protections and rights as marriage. Unfortunately no one is willing to even throw us a bone there either. I would not expect nor ask a tax paying, law abiding heterosexual person to unite for life with a member of the same sex and start a family. Why would he/she ever do that? Why should I be afforded any less with the person I am in love with for 10 years now? This is why we stand up and fight for the equal treatment under the law as many groups have in the history of this nation. Nothing is ever just handed to a minority group. So be it.
Ender- When it comes to this country and making decisions about the rights of my fellow Americans, then yes Country and constitutional ideals about freedom are on my mind above God AT THAT POINT. God reigns my heart and home. Principles of personal freedom and liberty reign this country. It is that very freedom that allows you to worship as you choose freely and follow the path of your own heart. These are beautiful things indeed. So you should follow your convictions as you see fit. I have grown up in a fine Christian home with a mother and a father and 2 siblings. I have been raised in this country (my country that I love). I have been taught your values and the importance of marriage and then am denied the right to form my own family because folks don’t think I should do that. I respect your freedom to worship and live your life how you choose. However, democracy is for voting our leaders to office and not for limiting civil rights. If a person votes a certain way because of his/her religious beliefs, to the detriment of another persons civil rights, then I am sorry but those people are not embodying the American spirit. In my opinion those people are no better than religious extremists who dictate that the world should bend to his/her own personal view of what his/her Bible or Torah or Quran says God wants. You will never find me voting against your freedoms. I would defend your rights to the death. You are my American brother. As your rights go, so go mine.
Ender says, “I am a Christian first. My nationality is irrelevant to God as is my form of government.†Boy, Ender that sounds like the extremists we are fighting in the Middle East right now. I don’t understand how you do not see that. I’m not saying you are going to kill anyone, but the mindset is similarly rigid and unyielding and un-American in my opinion. Put yourself in my shoes. I do not even think you can.
hard, it was not Christians alone who voted to prohibit same-sex marriages and what I find interesting is that two of the states that voted against it also voted for Obama which means that a majority of the people in those states still believe that marriage is reserved for one man and one woman.
Hardworker,
It sounds as if you are saying that love of country and its principles are more important than God. If you are a Christian, then you are to love God with all your heart, your mind and soul. You are to love God foremost, all else is secondary. I happen to be an American, but I am a Christian first. My nationality is irrelevant to God as is my form of government. Which is more important to you obedience to God ( as all Christians are commanded to do) or to this world?
believer,
We are, Thank you . . . I hope you and your family are having a blessed Thanksgiving as well!
It's one thing for the churches to insist on their right to define the sacrament of marriage for their own members. But it's quite another for them to insist that they have a right to define the relationships of people outside their communities.
Also, having kids is not an exclusive element of marriage, and to try to equate marriage to children is ludicrous because sex is not the basis or sole end goal of marriage. Also, if you think being gay is a choice, then I ask you this: If you claim that you never made a choice to be heterosexual (that you just "are"), then what gives you the right or authority to declare that homosexuals CHOSE to be homosexuals?
Finally, gay men and women can and do have children. In Florida, where adoption is illegal for gays, a judge has just declared that law unconstitutional in November of 2008 adding that the prohibitive law is not in the best interest of children in need of a loving home. (Love is not exclusively Christian, by the way). Same sex couples have children of their own, either through a surrogate mother, artificial insemination or adoption (these are options that many heterosexual couples use). They have created families. It is a human path to fall in love and start a family regardless of what kind of package you arrived in on this earth. Once a family is in your life, it is only common sense to want to protect that family.
As a U.S. citizen, I personally feel insulted when I am faced with state and federal legislation that tells me I am not allowed to create and protect a family of my own. A record number of Gay U.S. citizens hold public offices presently. Gay U.S. citizens are doctors, lawyers, mothers, fathers, soldiers, police and firemen. But above all of this criteria.....Gay U.S. citizens are just that: U.S. CITIZENS. That alone should be enough to ensure that they too have the right to be protected from bias, be it religious or otherwise, and allowed to follow the path of the human heart (i.e. fall in love, get married, have a family, grow old together).
I would not expect nor ask a tax paying, law abiding heterosexual person to unite for life with a member of the same sex and start a family... Why would he/she ever do that? Why should I be afforded any less?
This great country, founded on Christian principles (respect your neighbor, be kind, don't kill anybody) and not the bible or church dogma, is a place for all of us...even people you may not agree with.
God Bless America!
online, hope you and your family are having a safe and blessed Thanksgiving!
feet,
Again, can you post a text that explicitly mentions the marriage state between same sex couples?
"your point is? "
You just made his point.
your point is?
feet,
Here is the trouble with relying on the heart when one doesn't discern the will of God:
Then Peter replied to Him, Explain this parable to us.
Are even you still lacking in understanding? He asked. Don't you realize that whatever goes into the mouth passes through into the stomach and is eliminated? But what comes out of the mouth comes from the heart, and this defiles a man. For from the heart come evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, sexual immoralities, thefts, false testimonies, blasphemies. These are the things that defile a man, but eating with unwashed hands does not defile a man.
Matt 15:15-20
feet,
1 Corinthians 7 clearly speaks of the marriage state between a man and a woman; can you post a text that explicitly mentions the marriage state between same sex couples?
feet;
You should realize that you have to use the total context of the Bible to assure you are not making interpretive errors such as :i dont dishonor god when i speak from my heart." The heart of fallen man is wicked and that is why we are committed to eternal damnation without Christ. This is the reason for Jesus Christ; to save us from damnation.
24 Therefore God delivered them over in the cravings of their hearts to sexual impurity, so that their bodies were degraded among themselves. 25 They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served something created instead of the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
From Idolatry to Depravity....Males committed shameless acts with males and received in their own persons the appropriate penalty for their perversion.
28 And because they did not think it worthwhile to have God in their knowledge, God delivered them over to a worthless mind to do what is morally wrong. 29 They are filled with all unrighteousness, evil, greed, and wickedness.
Romans 1:24-29 (HCSB)
All this from the cravings of wicked hearts because they lack the knowledge of God
I pray you thank God today for the chances He offers to accept his Son to His glory.
God Bless
And the lust spoken of in Romans 1 isn't the same kind of lust spoken of by Jesus in reference to a man lusting after a woman.
whatever lusts i have i lay at the foot of the cross.
in regards to homosexuality there is no more lust than in hetersexuality. in regardes to those who seek a shared committed life with another there is no lust.
and you have no personnal witness that can say otherwise.
feet,
You said "i dont dishonor god when i speak from my heart."
That's where Romans one comes in..."Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:"
There is the dishonor of speaking or acting from your heart.
You lost me there feet...
What do any of those texts have to do with marriage period let alone same-sex marriage?
feet,
You may want to re-examine your proof texts for these passages say nothing of a union/marriage between those of the same sex. 1Corinthians 7 for example, explicitly speaks of the Christians responsibility and duty between a man and a woman in marriage; this entire chapter does not once mention same sex couples, why?
Romans 5:5
And hope does not disappoint us, because God has poured out his love into our hearts by the Holy Spirit, whom he has given us.
Romans 10:9
That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
1 Kings 8:39
then hear from heaven, your dwelling place. Forgive and act; deal with each man according to all he does, since you know his heart (for you alone know the hearts of all men),
feet,
The point is; you cannot provide a passage from the New Testament that legitimizes same sex unions . . . can you?
Jesus said, "You shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free." Major cudos to those Christians who attempt to share God's truth about the abominable practice of homosexuality. However, it is a mixed bag! On one hand those who hear and accept the truth will indeed be set free by the Spirit of truth, while those who hear and reject the truth condemn themselves to a hardening of the heart towards future attempts to help them. Way to go, Christian farmers, who are continually planting God's seed called The Truth!
Someone made the comment that speaking from the heart does not dishonor God. Depends on what is in the heart, doesn't it? Many people dishonor God daily by speaking their beliefs from the heart. Jesus said that those words "that proceed out of the mouth come from the heart, and they defile a man." (Matthew 15:19) Even from this one passage we can see that we should live by His Word, not by our feelings or what we would be comfortable believing is right. Our belief system must be informed by the Word of God, not by feelings.
not possible is it?
now explain how the words of those verses say homosexuality is a sin.
what we have to say about that
AIDS AND HOMOSEXUALITY: The Holy Bible gives the cause of this cancer and blight: " Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, And changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and four footed beasts, and creeping things. Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonor their own bodies between themselves: Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompense of their error which was meet. Romans 1:22-27
what we have to say about that
AIDS AND HOMOSEXUALITY: The Holy Bible gives the cause of this cancer and blight: " Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, And changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and four footed beasts, and creeping things. Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonor their own bodies between themselves: Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompense of their error which was meet. Romans 1:22-27
i dont dishonor god when i speak from my heart.
Oh. Well, your belief is that homosexuality is not a sin. The truth is, that it is. Now, if you want to say that homosexuality is okay, then feel free. But don't dishonor God by saying that He says it's okay, and He made you that way.
about 3:32
i was reiterating your 12:38 comment. my previous message was a further explanation of my 3:51 comment.
sorry to disappoint...................but i was entirely serious.
matt5:17"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.
Wilderness,
Is that "flat" or "fat"? They're both bad in my book...
They erase the jot and the tittle
They add to the Word just a little
A pinch of this and a dash of that
'Til they become spiritually flat
feet,
I am assuming that your post 3:32 was a bit of sarcasm?
jesus stressed that every jot and tittle was important, why then are you unable to use the same jot and tiittle to explain how the words say what you believe them to say?
"because what you deem as 'perverted love' is based on belief"
The computer term is 'skating'. When a program is skating on top of the OS it is making it's own rules for itself. It leads to unpredicable crashes due to eventual conflict with the OS.
In this case, Christians beleive the Bible as written to be the OS. It is the operating system for life. When people deviate from that they are 'skating' on the OS or even worse they just ignore the OS all together. History shows (all through the Old Testament) that this will lead to the crash of individuals and even socities.
In short, I don't pretend to be as smart as God and make up my own rules. God wrote out the OS very clearly. Our only chance is to do a 'clean install' of HIS OS to replace the corrupt OS we are born with. Then and ONLY then can we run life properly.
This 'you' and 'your' view has no meaning. It is either HIS or not. Any deviation from HIS OS causes problems.
MY BELIEF THAT the Bible SAYS homosexuality is a perversion IS SUFFICIENT FOR ME.
The blood of Jesus coveres the sins of all who profess Him as their Savior AND OBEY HIM AS LORD! It's the second part of that promise of God that prevents homosexuals from being covered by the first part. You may recognize Him as the Savior of the world, but He CAN NOT be your Savior until you make Him your Lord. He is the Savior of homosexuals the moment they crucify their sinful behavior because they recognize Him as their Lord. Jesus is either Lord OF ALL (your life) or not Lord AT ALL! I pray that you who are being deceived into thinking that homosexuality can in any way be pleasing to Holy God will abstain from your unholy behavior because you have made Him your Lord and Savior.
According to the Bible homosexuality is a perversion. I don't need to be any more objective than that.
because what you deem as "perverted love" is based on belief sans objective reason or valid witness, wouldn't that mean that your nausea is more about you and less about the thing that makes you nauseated.
The ONLY times the Bible explicitly addresses the issue of homosexual activity it is that of prohibition and condemnation. This leaves all same sex relations as unholy fornication. In NO PLACE does God sanction same sex relationship with marriage, which He clearly does for heterosexuals. David and Johnathan will do not do it, in case you want to try.
"Vile" in Rm. 1 is defined by the description of the sins, that of consensual same sex relations, which, like with all sin, that of a fruit of idolatry, and those who contend that Bible sanctions homosexuality have made God into an image more to their liking, To their own eternal horror. Yet as some of the first Christians were FORMER homosexuals (1Cor. 6:11), there is room at the cross for all who want Christ over sin, and come by faith to Him for salvation, as their Lord and Savior.
feet,
Yes perverted love does nauseate me rather easily. Those who it does not have simply grown cold to the Spirit of God.
God uses the term abomination for specific reasons. He hates sin and uses various words to express His displeasure.
The term "abomination" commonly used in biblical translations generally represents three distinct biblical words: to'evah, shekets, and piggul.
Sexual offenses, in particular, are denounced as to'evah. This includes transvestism (Deut. 22:5) and male homosexual acts (Lev. 18:22; 20:13). Indeed, in summation of the different sexual offenses enumerated in Leviticus 18, it is stated (v. 26, 28), "... You shall not do any of these abominations ... lest the land vomit you out when you defile it ..."
1. Extreme hostility and dislike: abhorrence, antipathy, aversion, detestation, hate, hatred, horror, loathing, repellence, repellency, repugnance, repugnancy, repulsion, revulsion.
2. An object of extreme dislike: abhorrence, anathema, aversion, bête noire, bugbear, detestation, execration, hate. Informal horror.
disregard previous message.........my apologies................using a new computer
believers have taken the word of abomination in certain translations of lev. and attached their own cultural understanding fed to them thru generations of homophobia and created their own unders
prophet, your posting is vile. and you are nauseated too easily. don't you think these gay people are a bit nauseated by what my wife and i and your wife and you do in private? why is this so hard for people?
where's delightinthe lord today? such a delight that guy is!
Homosexuals have a vile affection. It is the love that God created for a man and a woman that has been perverted into something disgusting. Satan loves to make counterfeits because so many gullible people fall for them.
NARTH MISSION STATEMENT
We respect the right of all individuals to choose their own destiny. NARTH is a professional, scientific organization that offers hope to those who struggle with unwanted homosexuality. As an organization, we disseminate educational information, conduct and collect scientific research, promote effective therapeutic treatment, and provide referrals to those who seek our assistance.
NARTH upholds the rights of individuals with unwanted homosexual attraction to receive effective psychological care and the right of professionals to offer that care. We welcome the participation of all individuals who will join us in the pursuit of these goals.
NARTH's primary goal is to make effective psychological therapy available to all homosexual men and women who seek change. Furthermore, we wish to open for public discussion all issues relating to homosexuality.
NARTH wants to build an atmosphere which allows an honest debate--balancing the one-sided distortion which has characterized the discussion.
NARTH has some excellent testimonials to how effective they are. So if you don't like Exodus try something else
Diary of an Ex-Gay Man -- Part 1
By Jake Taylor
How a 'gay rights' leader became straight
Why I Support NARTH
By Dr. Gerald Schoenewolf
Flagged as inappropriate. READ - SNAAKES IN THE PULPIT WWW.SNAKESINTHEPULPIT.COM WWW.REUBENARMSTRONGSHOW.COM
for those who have made changes after attending exodus, there is no credible evidence to show that rather than being homosexual, they suffered from disfunction about sexual identity, or from sexual addiction.
i have yet to hear anything but addiction, associated self hatred and disfunctional behavior. i have yet to hear about someone going to exodus who had a satisfying relationship and a life as a gay person, but suddenly realized it was a sin and therefore decided to become heterosexual.
;"For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet." Romans1:25-27.
;"For this cause God gave HOMOSEXUALS up unto vile affections: for even HOMOSEXUAL'S women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
And likewise also the HOMOSEXUALS, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; HOMOSEXUALS with HOMOSEXUALS working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet." Romans1:25-27.
(1) homosexuals dont have vile affections. their affections are the same as heterosexuals who also have bonded relationships. they mutual love, affection, devotion, respect,attraction (things that are mutually affirming). vile affections are affections that are shame BASED and foster self hatred and self loathing. in the same way homosexual affections are not lust ridden for the same reason.
(and what's even more important you, and those who believe as you do,have no witness that would indicate otherwise, and to continue to say so creates the possibility of committing of false witness.)
(2)homosexuals by their very definition do not have women, biblically they have more resemblance to euneuchs, which means they are covered by matthew 19:11
(3) this being the case, they would not have anytrhing to abandon in regards to women.
(4)and since homosexuals have no NATURAL attraction to women, to have a one flesh relationship with them would not only be unhealthy, but would be phychologically and emotionlly damaging.
Feet, you are really identified by your sexuality aren't you?
The text is speaking about regular people who are disobeying God (exchanging the truth for a lie) similar to what you are doing here in these posts. As such:
"Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them."Romans 1:29-32.
The homosexuals among them;"For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet." Romans1:25-27.
This is just the definition of homosexual sex, this was among one of a boat load of other sin that is being commited, ONCE THEY EXCHANGED THE TRUTH FOR A LIE."
that's what i figured!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1
If we believe the literal words of Romans 1:21,"Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened."
fine now explain how you know scripture is saying......"Because that, when HOMOSEXUALS knew God, HOMOSEXUALS glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened."
Feet says; "all homosexuals would have to filled with deceit, delusion, or denial"
If we believe the literal words of Romans 1:21,"Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened."
This would go a long way in explaining the one 'D', as denial.
"And even as they did not like to retain God (God's Truth) in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind..."
This one surely explain another 'D' as in delusion.
"Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools."
This would cover the last 'D' and that would be deceit.
Feet says, "what about issues about honoring another's life experiences?"
You are basing your belief on appearances, what you see with the natural senses and not on the Word of God. Experience is your #1 priority; criteria for truth.
You have placed yourself, your understanding, your actions over the plain text of God Word.
"And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man."
I would suggest that each Christian group has their own reason to support proposition 8 - the mormons, the Catholics, and the Evangelicals. The whole story is much more complex. What you see is not necesarrily the truth with lots of things no one will ever tell you.
http://www.psa91.com/whattheywill.htm
Let's get out before we sink with them....
"Whether someone is living with another person outside the marriage covenant, is a serial adulterer, or engaging in premarital sex, they cannot experience all that God wants them to have," he continued. "Our motive should not be simply to deny gay marriage but to hold out the hope, the promise and the fullness that God wants all people to know."
having said that........... what is the fullness that homosexuals havent experienced.
those that come out of the closet, speak of feeling they are finally living honestly,and that a burden has been lifted from their shoulders.
are they lying about this?
is their love, not love, their devotion not devotion? for this approach even to resemble the truth, the hearts of all homosexuals would have to filled with deceit, delusion, or denial? what could be farther from the truth? and this approach by those who dont live being this to those who live it 24/7. is this an example of love?
they are looking for another acceptable way of denying life liberty aqnd pursuitof happiness.
is this not just ANOTHER form of discrimination similar to joel's "god's best".
no one CAN SPEAK WITH ANY SPECIFICS OF WHAT IS BEING MISSED. only that something is missed.
i find it diificult to understand HOW HUMANS CAN CONNECT THE DOTS AND COME UP WITH THESE KIND NON SPECIFIC CONCLUSIONS, and think in any way this resembles the gospel.
what about issues about honoring another's life experiences?
is this loving ones neighbor as oneself.
believers appear to find new ways to be ridiculous.
Is it any wonder Melissa Fryrear's message is a "tough sell" among Lesbian & Gay Americans? She might put on a smile and talk about responding to us with love, responding in a "Christ-like" manner, but I suspect she pretty much toes the official anti-Gay line, namely that:
1: Gay people should not be protected from job discrimination.
2: Gay people must not be allowed to serve in the military.
3: Gay people should not be teaching our children in public schools.
4: Gay individuals and Gay couples must not be allowed to adopt children.
5: Gay couples must be denied any legal contracts such as civil unions and marriage.
But remember: It's just because we LOVE YOU!!!
mb, all true morals and values have existed for all eternity because they are rooted in the very character of God. Perhaps the more appropriate name for them would be godly or Christ-like morals and values.
(The code of Hammurabi. morality does not depend on Christianity. ask a Buddhist.)
Buddhism/the code of Hammurabi lack the totality of manuscript, archeological, prophetic, statistical evidence and continuity which demonstrates them to be legitimate worldviews. The New Testament complements and fulfills many of the Old Testament prophecies; so, though some form of morality may be found in other religions, none of them can come close to what Christianity offers: verifiable evidence and Jesus THE Christ.
mb,
you said "artm, there was morality here before christians were. read the old testament or the code of hamurabi. morality does not depend on christianity. ask a buddhist."
Morality for mankind existed the moment God told Adam not to eat the fruit from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Christianity is the final product of that legitimate history of morality as described in the Bible. Anything else is a creation of man's concept and not necessarily moral in God's standard. It's all about Him and what he desires of us, His creatures.
mb, you obviously have strong opinions about this issue. Would you approve of having religion censored if it suggested that homosexuality was a sin? Not advocating violence against homosexuals, nor any illegal activity. Just people who truly believe homosexuality is a sin, and preach as such. The only action they suggest being repentance.
The post below is in response to Delight, so named because he is a delight to be around. I just know it! I can feel the love....
mb,
The 'YOU' is the World=Relative thinking.
(a stereotype)
'US' is the Church=Biblical theist.
I don't belong to a church, I am a church.
(no comment)
you wouldn't get that because you have no understanding nor empathy for people of faith, nor much tolerance for our voice.
(so smug and omniscient - you don't know me)
No vitriol, here just blunt and truthful.
(smells like vitiol)
I'll save the vitriol for the she-males (vitriol) out there protesting against the voice of the People.
(hope you never have a she-male grandson)
A Sexual Act cannot be granted Civil rights.
(watch)
People of skin color needed to be granted Just Civil Rights.
To take their cause up and hijack it is to denegrate what people of color fought for and is arrogant and self serving. Homosexuals are far too wrapped up in their self importance and will use deceptive tactics to further their cause.
(but YOU are not wrapped up in the christian agenda - give me a break!)
If that's too much for you, get out of the kitchen.
(i haven't noticed any heat yet - plus, it's winter. it feels good.)
artm, there was morality here before christians were. read the old testament or the code of hamurabi. morality does not depend on christianity. ask a buddhist.
But wait! The homosexual agenda assures us that this will not happen!
Um, isn't that the same line Satan gave Eve in the Garden? Does anyone else see the connection?
ender, it's already happening in Canada and some countries in Europe and with Obama as President, it should not surprise us if it happens here.
(Just preaching God's word. Will gays try to make it a crime?)
You can count on it . . .
If gay marriage is legalized through out the US, will the next item by gays be to criminalize declaring homosexuality is a sin? I'm not talking about a religious figure advocating violence or anything towards gays, just preaching God's word. Will gays try to make it a crime?
"Read Anna Quinlend's thoughtful essay on the back page of "Newsweek" recently to see why same sex marriage is inevitable. Pick another fight, people. You are losing this one."
Sin is inevitable in a country that turns it's back on God in our day to day life. What's your point?
mb;
you said "you can practice whatever your church deems proper, but you can't make evryone else follow; i mean, if they are not members of your church. America does not work that way."
The real issue is about God and His authority. He is the creator of heaven and earth and due to His love for all of mankind has provided us a manual for righteous living. He told us what is right and what is wrong. This applies to everybody whether they choose to believe or not. For those that do trust Him and believe He offers eternal life and for those that reject Him they have committed themselves to eternal damnation. We all have the free will to choose what path we walk. As believers we are charged with being the salt and light of His truth and that is what we are doing when we support traditional marriage and not support gay marriage.
God instituted government to be His instrument on earth to protect the good and punish evil doers based on His rules, not man's. Israel was effective in its early years but backslid and was destroyed as a world power. America was founded on this principle and followed it fairly well until the early 1900s. We are now on the verge of self destruction as we have backslid from Godly principles. The homosexual issue is one of many that are contrary to God's will. He has warned us what happens to nations that back slide. If you are interested here is an excellent essay on the decline of nations: http://www.probe.org/site/c.fdKEIMNsEoG/b.4217933/k.664B/The_Decline_of_a_Nation.htm
P.S. I meant to say, It would be a world " without " Love. thank you.
Imagine, If there were no Christians in the World to declare Morality that God has established, Imagine if there was no one to say that stealing was wrong, or that murder was not right.
Imagine if there was no one to reveal the wrong in killing unborn babies, or what if there was no one to tell of the dangers and destruction that homosexuality brings into a person's life.
What kind of Society would we be left with.? Babies killed by the millions world wide,
sickness and diease would engulf mankind do to un-natural lifestyle's.
It would be a world with love, and without the restraint's of a Lovong God.
God in your Grace, never let that happen.
mburrell, Yoy don't understand, Christians don't pick or choose the " Fight " they will engage.
This is laid out for them in the Bible,God's Word. God tell's us which battles to engage in.
If Christians are to be true to God and His Word, We must as " Jude " writes, " Earnestly contend for the Faith."
I too believe same sex marriage will one day be the law of the land, But it won't be because Christians failed, Or that Christians were out of touch with society.
It will be because society has forsaken God and his Word. It will be because society with it's Godless Courts, have Forsaken the Plan and purpose of God for Mankind.
So please, do not thing that Christians stand against the issues of today because they are just mean and nasty people, No, We just play the hand God has dealt us.
I hope and pray that you have a personal relationship with Christ, It's very Important to say the least.
mb,
The 'YOU' is the World=Relative thinking.
'US' is the Church=Biblical theist.
I don't belong to a church, I am a church.
you wouldn't get that because you have no understanding nor empathy for people of faith, nor much tolerance for our voice.
No vitriol, here just blunt and truthful.
I'll save the vitriol for the she-males out there protesting against the voice of the People.
A Sexual Act cannot be granted Civil rights.
People of skin color needed to be granted Just Civil Rights.
To take their cause up and hijack it is to denegrate what people of color fought for and is arrogant and self serving. Homosexuals are far too wrapped up in their self importance and will use deceptive tactics to further their cause.
If that's too much for you, get out of the kitchen.
mb, the reality is it was far more than conservative Christians who voted to pass Prop #8, but this article is not about Prop #8, it's about some in the Christian community who desire to love homosexuals in the name of Christ and help them to leave a sinful lifestyle that is keeping them from either coming to Christ or having the close intimate relationship with God that He desires to have with them. Separating the sinner from the sin that is separating them from God.
mburrell wrote: "you can practice whatever your church deems proper, but you can't make evryone else follow; i mean, if they are not members of your church. America does not work that way."
With all due respect, it seems American does work this way. Everytime an election occurs, people all across the country vote for people they see best reflects the values they too hold. Also, when asked a question, they honestly answer it. The majority vote declares a winner.
i dont care what color the water fountain is. it still tastes the same.
you can practice whatever your church deems proper, but you can't make evryone else follow; i mean, if they are not members of your church. America does not work that way.
as i said before, my state would still have white and colored water fountains if it had been left to the people's vote.
gee, delight, how about a little more delight and less vitriol? What do you mean by that "YOU not us" crack? i'm like straightbutnotnarrow. it's not MY groupthat is trying to overturn anything. it's basic civil rights we are discussing here. this discrimination will not stand.
"You are losing this one."
We Christians are not on the losing end of this at anytime; although we are having to hold up His standard in the face of a culture that is spiraling down hill at lightening fast speed.
If we lose our voice here, it will be too late for YOU not us.
"This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof.." 2 Tim 3:1-4.
What kind of society will you have once the goodness of God is no longer evident in our culture?
A culture ripe for destruction and judgement by God, just like Sodom, Rome and Greece.
"A religious perspective is commendable. But our country cannot live by one group's religious edicts."
Unless it's YOUR group, right?
What's to commend about having a religious perspective if we are not allowed to voice that in the public square and stand up for what God has spoken? You'd like us to give just a nod to biblical doctrine and step out of the way for you to make public policy by force.
This nation was founded over 200 years ago on Biblical principles that you want to overthrow by outrageous and intimidating tactics; by lobby and by force and backed by a liberal media bent on the country's destruction. The people have spoken and yet you have hounded liberal judges who violate the Constitution and their office by pandering to perversion.
Sew to the wind and reap the whirlwind.
First Sodom, then Greece and Rome; the gay religious perspective tears down great societies and our elected, public officials refuse to learn from history. No, we who have a Godly perspective will fight for it every step of the way because the alternative is just too destructive for any civil society to endure.
Prophet
Muslims and Christians can both agree that the homosexual lifestyle is wrong.
But if only one of them says that Jesus Christ is Lord and Saviour, then you have a problem.
Even muslims are ant-gay, and probably voted for prop 8. So are they Christians?
mb, "mormons are now being seen as Christians for supporting Prop #8" says who. Considering that mormons have always been about families it should surprise no one how strongly they supported Prop #8, but to the best of my knowledge they still adhere to many beliefs that many believe are totally contrary to the Word of God. Chances are those who thought they were Christians prior to the vote still think they are and those who thought they were a cult prior to the election still think they are a cult.
A religious perspective is commendable. But our country cannot live by one group's religious edicts.
Mormons are now perceived as Christians since their fight for Prop 8. Now I hear Muslims are forbidding yoga among their adherents. Years from now these efforts will lie in the dist bin of history as civil rights triumph. Read Anna Quinlend's thoughtful essay on the back page of "Newsweek" recently to see why same sex marriage is inevitable. Pick another fight, people. You are losing this one.
"It's not what I'm against, it's what I'm for," she added, noting the nuance."
I'm sorry, but this sounds a lot like the "politically correct" spin. Positive emphasis over negative emphasis.
But it means the same.
Christians are "Anti-Gay" because the sexual lifestyle goes against the Word of God just as Fornication and Adultery.
Love the sinner, but not the sin.
I can understand what the article is trying to convey about the need for a "pro-God" message concerning marriage and sexuality, but I have a hard time imagining God saying, "I'm not anti-gay, I'm pro-Me".
The Bible speaks of God's harsh view of homosexuality, calling it an "abomination". He speaks harshly, as do prophets and apostles, about the evilness of fornication and adultery. There is no "pro" anything about how God speaks to homosexuality. He's quite against it, according to my read on Scripture.
Look at it another way... would you say, "we're not anti-cheating-on-your-spouse, we're pro-family." I think not. We'd say "I'm pro-family, THEREFORE I am anti-cheating and cheating on your spouse is dead wrong." Adultery is adultery. Homosexuality is Homosexuality.
I do understand, however, that we must treat others with love, and I don't want my message here to be construed as saying, "hate the sinner, too". I think we need to stick to the message, "LOVE the sinner, but HATE the sin." The hating is easy, but the loving is hard sometimes. I think that's where Christian's need to look for correction ... within their hearts, not their message.
I think if Christians intend to be true to their beliefs, they shouldn't try to hide behind the same double-speak they accuse others of using to hide the truth. Let's be open and honest... many Christians are simply anti-gay as much as they are pro-God. But Christians SHOULD be loving, at all times and toward everyone.
For me, it will be:
B: We can stand firm in the truth of God and find ourselves in good standing with God.
As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.
Well, let's see. We can:
A: Give in to the pressure and condone homosexuality and gay marriages, and find ourselves in good standing with humanity. Or...
B: We can stand firm in the truth of God and find ourselves in good standing with God.
That is a choice each one must make.
forgiven, good morning to you as well, what is really frustrating is I've seen God use some of these discussions to soften the hearts of non-believers to really see God's truths and more importantly God's love for them through Christ. Plus, like you God has used these opposing views to make me dig deeper into His Word.
Good morning believer,
The flagging is getting out-of-hand. I have been a two conversations in the past two days to have someone flag the person I was communicating with. It is a little frustrating.
Would whoever is flagging posters like sddane please stop even though you may not agree with them what they are saying does not fall under the criteria for flagging, thanks.
ender, how true!
Good news isn't good news. The news is filled with stabbings, shooters, robberies, high speed chases and home invasions. We call it the Doom and Gloom hour. We stopped watching it a long time ago ~ the kids were being exposed.
The media is not going to assist Christians with this mission. It is much is easier to hype a story about religious intolerance (especially Christians), than to actually delve into the story. Gays are the media darlings of the moment and the mass media has already decided on which side of the story they will portray. How many stations carried the story of the elderly woman attacked and her cross stomped at a gay protest rally? If Christians had done this to a gay person, they would've had the film on continuous feed. If the propostion 8 had failed and Christians were holding a protest rally and done likewise it would have been listed as a hate crime. The media has its double standards as well.
ssdane, what led you to come to the conclusion there is no God and what would you need to experience to believe there is a God?
sddane wrote: "And it's equally frustrating that a non-entity has the power to restrict my rights on a deeply personal level."
Now who sounds delusional. How can a non-entity have power over you? Then indeed the power over you must be an entity and He is God.
sddane, is it possible that God has revealed Himself to others, but not yet to you? Your assertion is an absolute statement that requires absolute knowledge, in other words omniscience, to know with certainty that it is true. Is that what you are claiming for yourself?
DP, totally agree since many Christians have a hard time understanding the need to separate the sin from the sinner I imagine non-Christians have an even more difficult time with understanding that concept. And when homosexuals hear us speaking out against same-sex marriage they are likely to assume we're speaking out against them as well.
"Still, it's a tough sell for many gay rights supporters"
One rarely sells what the intended consumer has no intention of buying. If we are right then the entire gay life of a person is a lie. This is beyond what most gays can accept.
Over at Rod Dreher's Crunchy Con blog, there's a discussion going on between Rod, a conservative Orthodox Christian and Tony Jones, a leader of the emerging church movement. They are discussing same-sex marriage with Rod in the con position and Tony in the pro position. This promises to be a frank and real discussion of the issue.
http://blog.beliefnet.com/crunchycon/2008/11/tony-jones-and-rod-dreher-disc.html