Updated 11:59 pm.EST, Fri November 20, 2009

Opinion|Tue, Nov. 25 2008 09:28 AM EST

Can We Be Good Without God?

By Chuck Colson|Christian Post Guest Columnist

It’s the time of year when spoilsports come out in full force. You know who I mean—the kind of people who insist that people say “Happy Holidays” instead of “Merry Christmas,” or who go around suing city halls that dare to have a Nativity scene on public property. But this year, the Christmas cranks have actually launched an ad campaign to convince us that God doesn’t exist.

The Humanist Association is placing posters on buses in Washington, D.C., featuring a skinny Santa in dreadlocks and the words, “Why believe in a god? Just be good for goodness’ sake.”

Fred Edwords, communications director of the Humanist Association, says that partly they’re trying to cheer up agnostics and atheists, who tend to get lonely this time of year when most of their neighbors are celebrating holy days. Pity. But he says they’re also “trying to plant a seed of rational thought and critical thinking and questioning in people’s minds.”

They never give up, do they? Richard Dawkins, Sam Harris, Christopher Hitchens, and now the Humanists—all spreading and making money trying to convince us that God doesn’t exist and that His followers are a bunch of irrational dopes.

Maybe these folks ought to take a break from decorating buses and read a book by my friend Professor J. Budziszewski. In his book—a classic—What We Can’t Not Know, Budziszewski explains why we cannot be good without God and why godless morality always fails.

You see, without God, morality itself loses meaning. Christians know we can learn about how to live from the way God designed us. But without God, we can’t think of ourselves as designed at all. In fact, the evolutionist says that “man is the result of a purposeless and natural process that did not have us in mind.” If that’s so, then morality and human nature are mere accidents of evolution.

So instead of caring for our children, we might be choose to eat them, the way guppies do. Why not? If morality is an accident of evolution, who can say that this would be wrong?

Apart from God, we have no reason to take morality seriously. Sure, we can do a few good things here and there without God. In fact, it would be great if atheists this Christmas were to give gifts to poor children or the children of prisoners like we do with Angel Tree.

But to think we can be good, that we can build a good and humane society without God, is pure folly. And it’s a folly with catastrophic consequences, as the untold millions of victims of the atheistic utopianisms of the 20th century bear witness. Or as we see today in our depleted savings accounts—the result of a subprime crisis caused by immoral actions on the part of mortgage lenders.

So if those ads make news in your town, or if you happen to see one plastered on a local bus, why not start a conversation with an unsaved friend about the impossibility of being “good for goodness’ sake”—that is, without God. And then offer your friend rational arguments for the existence of our Heavenly Father—the kind offered by C.S. Lewis in Mere Christianity. You might even send a copy to your local humanist society as a Christmas present.

Who knows? They might develop rational doubts about why they are so obsessed with a God they believe doesn’t exist.

As Lewis—a lapsed atheist himself—put it, “An atheist cannot guard his faith too closely.”

_______________________________________________________

From BreakPoint®, November 25, 2008, Copyright 2008, Prison Fellowship Ministries. Reprinted with the permission of Prison Fellowship Ministries. All rights reserved. May not be reproduced or distributed without the express written permission of Prison Fellowship Ministries. “BreakPoint®” and “Prison Fellowship Ministries®” are registered trademarks of Prison Fellowship
Sort by: Newest | Oldest | Agree | Disagree
All comments on this page are subject to our Terms of Use and do not necessarily reflect the views of The Christian Post or its staff.
1 | 2
  • Fri Dec 05, 2008 7:45 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    'Daniel Paul
    "you can be good without God. "
    Define good.'

    Good is hard to define, but you recognize it when you see it - just like pornography :)

    OK, all joking aside though, I think it really is a bad idea to aim for an exact verbal definition of good. Because good is one of those concepts that everyone understands intuitively but is difficult to define and intellectualize over - kind of like happiness.

    Personally, I think that if you are going to judge good or evil, it would have to be based on someone's actions. So basically you would limit yourself to judging good deeds and bad deeds instead of good people and bad people. Also, the bottom line for whether a deed is good or bad would have to be the result it causes - an action that causes things like suffering or hate is bad, whereas an action that causes things like joy or love is good. Period. So, if a devout law-abiding believer does something to cause suffering in another, even if by accident or in the name of the lord, this is not a good deed. The pharisees are a decent example of this. But if someone intentionally violates a law, even a sacred law, to help another person, that is a good deed. Jesus was a good example in showing us this. So if you are going to distinguish good from bad, it would have to be based on what results someone's actions cause, and not on what that person's intentions were, what their belief system is, or what rules they were following.

  • Tue Dec 02, 2008 8:01 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    I beleive people can be good without God...do good deeds, live at peace, even not smoke, drink, do drugs, cuss, etc, etc.

    But can one be good enough to get to heaven? Can we repay what Christ paid for us? Even Ghandi and Mother Teresa together can't even come close.

  • Tue Dec 02, 2008 3:44 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    "you can be good without God. "

    Define good.

  • Tue Dec 02, 2008 3:34 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    yes..you can be good without God. The world does it every day. there are plenty of sinners who live moral lives and are respectable law biding citizens.

    The questition is can you become rigghteous without God? While one may be a good person withougt God, God does not give him brownie points for that. God is looking at the overal condition of the heart. Regardless of how good a person may be, if they have not accepted God's son Jesus Christ they are not good enough.

  • Mon Dec 01, 2008 9:29 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    No one likes to be judged. God says to love your neighbor as yourself. He also says that he who is without sin should cast the first stone. Additionally, he says that where there are many words, sin is not absent.

    I am pretty sure that my calling as a christian, follower and believer in the creator of heaven and earth is to preach the Gospel through love. If I am to believe that there is ANY power in He who sends us, then I can go out confidently knowing that someone is watching me. I am not perfect, but it's his love light that I get to reflect once in a while that brings people to him.

    So often people place their attention toward assuming the roll of flock leader. tut-tut... there is only one. The bible says that ALL have fallen short of the Glory of God.

    It's amazing how pure the Word is. Check out Ephesians 6:12 - "For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms."

  • Mon Dec 01, 2008 8:12 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 4

    to all atheists and agnostic

    Psalm 14:1

    The fool says in his heart, "There is no God." They are corrupt, their deeds are vile; there is no one who does good.

  • Mon Dec 01, 2008 6:00 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 0

    prometheus,
    No. The difference between sinning and practicing sin. Practicing sin is like habitual sin. I am not a liar by nature. But if I am talking to someone and a lie to them, I have sinned. But, if I am a habitual liar, or habitual thief, then that is practicing sin. When you do a particular sin over and over with no remorse, regret, or repentance. I used to practice sexual immorality. But God has set me free from practicing that sin. I will stumble from time to time, but I no longer practice it.
    Basically, sinning is just falling short, whether it's a sin of ommission or of commission. There is regret and repentance. Practicing sin is just what it says. You practice it over and over and over and over.
    Such is the way with homosexuals, as well as gamblers, alcoholics, sex addicts, pride, anger, bitterness, gossiping, and the list goes on. It is so easy to let them become habits, and to practice them.
    Though I believe that we will always fall short from time to time, I believe that we can get to the point where we no longer practice sin.
    As for your comment "but if by 'sinning' you mean the impulse to do evil, and if by 'practicing sin' you mean acting on those impulses / doing evil, then we're definitely on the same page"....no. Temptation is not sin. Otherwise, Jesus was not perfect, and He sinned, for He was tempted as we are. The impulse does not become sin until it is acted upon. That is why a person who has homosexual impulses, and yet does not act upon them, is not a sinner. Temptation teaches us self-control.

  • Mon Dec 01, 2008 1:19 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    pro-science:"Christians are the most immoral people in human history." "most Christians are racists." "...a childish belief in a magic fairy" "...Mr. ex-convict"

    "I don't need a childish belief in a magic fairy to be a civilized person."

    What, Sir, is your definition of CIVILIZED discourse?

  • Mon Dec 01, 2008 1:18 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    prome, Christ teaches us that we shall know the Truth and the Truth will set us free, He also says for I am the Truth, the Life, and the Way and know one can go unto the Father but through Him, so we can claim to know the Truth if we truly know Christ as our Savior and Lord.

  • Mon Dec 01, 2008 1:14 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    prome, all persons as a result of the sin of Adam and Eve are born with a sinful nature, as a parent I did not have to teach my son how to be self-serving and self-centered it came to him naturally, however we did need to teach him when and why to be thankful and how to be kind to others. As far as putting a person in a good enviroment it may help some, but my wife was raised in a wonderful Christian home and yet she can be as mean as the next person at times. That's why all of us need a Savior since it is impossible for any of us to live a sinless life and that Savior is Jesus Christ alone and while some have done evil in His name it certainly was not His plan or desire for them or what they did in anyway.

  • Mon Dec 01, 2008 12:59 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 2

    Schemeroo,

    The short answer is that according to your personal interpretation of history, it is obvious that atheism causes evil, and according to mine, it is obvious that religious ideology does. We could argue endlessly over this, but I hope we can just leave it at this: a REAL atheist would not suppress freedom of thought (which is holy to us atheists) or promote religion as a tool to achieve power, as despots like Hitler did. Likewise, a REAL christian would not use his religion as a tool to achieve power and justify evil in public and make fun of it in private, as Hitler also did.

    But I still maintain that the position that the ONLY way to morality is your way is an extremist one and reeks of ignorance and arrogance. Personally, I love scientific inquiry. I believe, almost religiously, that we should adapt our worldview to a constantly expanding body of research and be able to support our claims with evidence. But I would not go out and say something like 'the ONLY way to do good is through the scientific method' or 'why not educate an unenlightened person on the impossibility of being good without science?'. Because I hope we can all agree that such rhetoric would make me look like a complete meathead. And it certainly won't do anything to promote my cause. Just something to keep in mind s you are trying to promote yours.

    'believe those who seek the truth, but doubt those who find it.'

  • Mon Dec 01, 2008 11:46 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    Prophet,

    I think we found a point we can agree on:

    'if we cease from practicing sin, but yet still sin...are we evil? No.'

    I'm not sure if I'm interpreting this the same way you are, but if by 'sinning' you mean the impulse to do evil, and if by 'practicing sin' you mean acting on those impulses / doing evil, then we're definitely on the same page. In fact, there's a lot of science behind this point as well. In short, social psychology research has demonstrated the capacity of evil inside all of us by showing that you can draw evil actions out of good people by putting them in the wrong kind of environment. I'm no biblical scholar, but I think the Christian analogy would be the concept of our fallen nature. This seems like a very bleak picture at first, but the opposite is also true - we all have the capacity to be heroes, and it is possible to suppress evil in people by putting them in the right kind of environment. So the POTENTIAL for evil in us is always there, but that does not mean it has to be drawn out of us. I'd highly recommend www.lucifereffect.com as a starting point for the scientific perspective on good and evil. Why not? The worst thing that can happen is that you learn something new...

  • Sun Nov 30, 2008 11:28 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    "morality peace and fairness is possible in a Godless world,"

    Spam by any other name is still spam. The world may try to call it ham but it's not. In short, the world may call it "morality peace and fairness" but it's not. You don't have to look any further than how those "moral, peaceful and fair" people treat those of us who follow Christ.

  • Sun Nov 30, 2008 9:23 am Agree: 3   Disagree: 0

    "but more often than not it is a religious ideology. "

    Sorry, but you lost me there. Lenin, Stalin, Pol Pot, Mao, Hitler, Romans, Barbarian hordes etc etc - hundreds of millions of lives lost to the religion of "humanism". Not to mention the few instances you mention, the inquisition, the crusades etc etc are all the result of a very distorted and "humanistic" corruption of religion (i.e. the "religious leaders of the time actually took the God out of the religion, to your and Chuck's point).

    You certainly can have evil with religion, especially if the religion is not based on true biblical principles (see humanism, see many liberal denominations, see Catholicism through most of its history)

    Dawkins et al can argue till your blue in the face that somehow morality peace and fairness is possible in a Godless world, but history shows us otherwise.

  • Sun Nov 30, 2008 1:57 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    Can We Be Good Without God?


    Jesus said:

    I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing (John 15:5).

  • Sat Nov 29, 2008 6:50 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    "But to think we can be good, that we can build a good and humane society without God, is pure folly. And it’s a folly with catastrophic consequences, as the untold millions of victims of the atheistic utopianisms of the 20th century bear witness. Or as we see today in our depleted savings accounts—the result of a subprime crisis caused by immoral actions on the part of mortgage lenders. "

    But it is okay to forget the millions of deaths caused by every radical religious group in the world pre-20th century, including Christians?

  • Sat Nov 29, 2008 2:33 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 2

    Have you noticed...

    Obama has been much more moderate in his appointments since he got his first official brief? Ain't it amazing what a few facts can do for your positions?

  • Sat Nov 29, 2008 2:31 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Just FYI, how do I know first hand? Simple...I use to live in the city where all those pipe bombs were going off in the S. Philippines as an MK. They want western civilization purged from the face of the Earth. This means they want us dead simply because we exist.

  • Sat Nov 29, 2008 2:29 pm Agree: 3   Disagree: 2

    "Who didn't vote for Obama? The Christian extremists."

    I didn't vote for Obama because I tracked his positions. They changed more than the direction of the wind. He was spouting socialism and his education plan (which has quite a few good things in it) would cost more money than those who earn more than $250,000/yr would have. It didn't workout on the calculator.

    Also, I know first hand what these terrorist groups want. Pulling out will only move the battlefields. It will end nothing. Obama's positions clearly lacked that understanding of the enemy. Case and point is what just happened in India.

    I didn't vote for Obama because I looked at his voting record and his positions. It's called an informed vote. This is unlike the people interviewed by the news media in the past week or so who said things like once Obama gets into office they won't have to worry about how they will pay their mortgage or rent because Obama will take care of them. This is called just plain nuts....

  • Sat Nov 29, 2008 1:45 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Pro,
    Now you're talking about the difference between sinning and practicing sin. I believe, as Christians, though we cannot cease from sinning, we can cease from practicing sin.
    So, if we cease from practicing sin, but yet still sin...are we evil? No. But I don't believe if you've truly have a committed relationship with God that you can remain the same. Those who commit atrocities in the name of God do not truly have a relationship with God. A true relationsip with God will truly and radically change your life.

  • Sat Nov 29, 2008 12:19 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

    'Can we be good without god?'
    Of course! Almost all nobel prize winning scientists are atheists, as are some of the brightest minds in history and some of the staunchest defenders of your rights to freedom of religion. Plus, I've personally known atheists who make sacrifices for the sake of public service, are very active volunteers, donate generously, and/or are generally great people to be around.

    'Can we be evil without God?'
    Yes again! Considering the audience, this one should not surprise you.

    'Can we be good with God?'
    Of course! Just think of all the charity that has been done through Christianity, or of the contributions spiritual figures like Gandhi or Mother Teresa have made to society.

    and now for the punchline:
    'CAN WE BE EVIL WITH GOD?'
    Unfortunately, the answer is an emphatic, loud and clear YES. When I think of the worst systemic evils in history, it's always the same story - desperate clinging to an ideology no matter what the human cost. Sometimes this ideology is a political one, such as communism, but more often than not it is a religious ideology. Think of suicide bombers, anti-semitism, the spanish inquisition, witch hunts, crusades, etc, etc.

    So, what's the moral of the story? How about this:
    There are good people and bad people in all faiths and all walks of life. In fact, the potential for good as well as evil exists in all of us. So, we must do away with the dangerous idea that we can somehow neatly divide the world into 'good people' and 'bad people' based on their faith. To do so is nothing more than bigotry, and ironically has lead us in the past to commit some of the greatest evils known to man. Personally, my belief is that the only way I can judge someone's goodness, if at all, is through their ACTIONS. In other words: good is not something you are, it's something you do.

  • Sat Nov 29, 2008 12:28 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    to pro science,

    "Anyone think Christians aren't bigots anymore? Who didn't vote for Obama? The Christian extremists. The same Christians who visit this blog. They will deny it was for racial reasons, but it's very obvious they didn't want a black president. Why? Because most Christians are racists."

    you obviously don't know any christians in your personal life do you, you just get your information off the internet or the national media.

    "That's really a strange question coming from Christians because Christians are the most immoral people in human history. "

    You need to do some research, thats all i have to comment about that...

    "A better question would be "Can We Be Good With God?"

    I would say from the anger and hatred you have for christians only from your previous post is that you need God to take that hatred and anger away... So my answer would be yes, we do need God and no we can't be good without God, also don't create your argument by rehearsing lines from a movie, it doen't bode will with a good debate as you have already lost your argement before you started. As for the obama comment, well i don't know who voted for obama and i don't rightly care, i didn't vote for him because he had less experience for president then Sarah Palin did, i wouldn't want an inexperienced person running my company nor would i want an inexperienced person running this country....

  • Fri Nov 28, 2008 6:13 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Thanks, believer. He should be home on leave within the next few weeks. He was given a leave/ship date but it is set to the 'Army time' calendar....

    I have never seen so much time, money and other resources spent to stay at the bottom of the economic ladder in all my days. This was a textile state for 150 years and a slave state before that. There has always been the elite and the commoner mentality. Many do not want businesses locating here (especially in our country) as it will affect the 'old money'. Yet, they do not understand this creates a 'trade deficit' as we have more money in residential than we do in industrial tax base. Still, they complain about their taxes. In short, they go to church on Sunday and have no clue what it means to love your neighbor. Truly a sad state of things.

    Just FYI, for those who do not have the Yahoo! Widgets (it's free) there is a really good dictionary widget that I use from time to time. The rest of the time I just spell things wrung. :-)

  • Fri Nov 28, 2008 10:21 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    Man cannot even define "good" without God.

    Man's Utter Inability to Rescue Himself
    Thomas Boston
    http://polemos.net/html/mans_utter_inability.html

  • Thu Nov 27, 2008 9:52 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 1

    to pro science

    Job 15

    2 "Would a wise man answer with empty notions
    or fill his belly with the hot east wind?

    3 Would he argue with useless words,
    with speeches that have no value?

    4 But you even undermine piety
    and hinder devotion to God.

    5 Your sin prompts your mouth;
    you adopt the tongue of the crafty.

    6 Your own mouth condemns you, not mine;
    your own lips testify against you.

    7 "Are you the first man ever born?
    Were you brought forth before the hills?

    8 Do you listen in on God's council?
    Do you limit wisdom to yourself?

    9 What do you know that we do not know?
    What insights do you have that we do not have?

    10 The gray-haired and the aged are on our side,
    men even older than your father.

    11 Are God's consolations not enough for you,
    words spoken gently to you?

    12 Why has your heart carried you away,
    and why do your eyes flash,

    13 so that you vent your rage against God
    and pour out such words from your mouth?

    14 "What is man, that he could be pure,
    or one born of woman, that he could be righteous?

  • Thu Nov 27, 2008 2:04 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    DP, I love that minimum wage thing and I hope you and your family are having a safe and blessed Thanksgiving to include your son and the men and women serving with him in Iraq and Afghanistan.

  • Thu Nov 27, 2008 1:53 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    1st...Hey, James...welcome!
    -----------------------

    "Your Bible approves of slavery."

    Where? I've never seen where the Bible approves of slavery any more than it approves of sin. It speaks to slaves and masters as a matter of fact of their existance.

    Just FYI, we don't have slavery here in America any more. They no longer care what color you are and pay you minimum wage.... The same principles apply.

  • Thu Nov 27, 2008 1:45 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    I think we need God in every part of our lives. I would
    feel empty without God and Jesus in my life.

  • Thu Nov 27, 2008 1:34 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    hello all,
    I am James and just wanted to say hi.

  • Thu Nov 27, 2008 11:18 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Yes, we can be good without God. But to what reward? Even Ghandi and Mother Teresa, if they didn't accept Jesus as Lord, will still go to hell.

  • Wed Nov 26, 2008 10:25 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    pro, that last post was for you and not ifeelfine, although he and I have been talking to this same issue on another site.

  • Wed Nov 26, 2008 10:23 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    ifeelfine, Genesis 9:27 was a consequence of the sin of Ham for looking on his father when he was naked and many Bible scholars believe he even made fun of his father's nakedness. And yes unfortunately there have been Christians and non-Christians alike who have used that verse to condone both slavery and segregation. Plus racism and bigotry are by no means exclusive to the Christian community, they are a world-wide epidemic.

  • Wed Nov 26, 2008 10:11 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    pro, since when did you start believing the Word of God and especially anything out of Genesis? Hope you and yours have a good and safe Thanksgiving! Plus, I've been missing your rowdy posts!

  • Wed Nov 26, 2008 10:10 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 1

    believer, Your Bible approves of slavery. I have nothing else to say about it. I'll let the Bible speak for itself.

  • Wed Nov 26, 2008 10:10 pm Agree: 3   Disagree: 2

    "Apart from God, we have no reason to take morality seriously."

    Speak for yourself Mr. ex-convict Colson. I don't need a childish belief in a magic fairy to be a civilized person.

  • Wed Nov 26, 2008 10:08 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    pro, so I guess blacks voting for Obama would make them black bigots?

  • Wed Nov 26, 2008 10:05 pm Agree: 3   Disagree: 2

    "Can We Be Good Without God?"

    A better question would be "Can We Be Good With God?"

    From the movie Mississippi Burning: "At school they said segregation is what it said in the Bible. Genesis 9, Verse 27."

    Genesis 9:27 GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995) "May God expand the territory of Japheth. May he live in the tents of Shem. Canaan will be his slave."

    The Ku Klux Klan was and still is a Christian organization.

    Anyone think Christians aren't bigots anymore? Who didn't vote for Obama? The Christian extremists. The same Christians who visit this blog. They will deny it was for racial reasons, but it's very obvious they didn't want a black president. Why? Because most Christians are racists.

    The Bible says owning slaves is OK. Isn't that interesting?

    "Can We Be Good Without God?"

    That's really a strange question coming from Christians because Christians are the most immoral people in human history.

  • Wed Nov 26, 2008 5:23 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    ...Sons, 1955) 327.) Outside of Christ we are not good, and we are only inside Christ if we are humble.

    Humility then ought to be our track as we pursue a life of faith in Christ. The Spirit, His Spirit, empowers such an endeavor. And the result is righteousness.

  • Wed Nov 26, 2008 5:22 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    ...get one whit closer to being good? We ought to study goodness so we can learn to be good not so that we can learn to be learned; for why study goodness save to be good?

    I should not be too hard on the philosopher, though, for they have good reason to be reticent in addressing the question, "How can I be good?" for ethics cannot answer this question. Rational discourse is utterly powerless to make a person good. To be clear, discussion might make the right path apparent, but discourse cannot provide the power to choose this path. And so ethics is in the difficult position of having to raise a question it cannot answer. To use Christian language, it does not have the power to transform the evil inside us, though, it knows the evil must be transformed. Thus ethics must fall silent, and fall silent it does.

    I know of only one source for the transformative power to be good: the genuine and persevering work of the Spirit in the life of the believer. Only in humbly trusting in Him, and the efficacy of Christ's death and resurrection in my life, do I find the resources to be good. True faith brings true righteousness. And righteousness is what the ethicist seeks; for righteousness is living right towards God. That is goodness realized.

    As a Christian I do not mean to smugly criticize the ethicist, lest I risk stealing away my righteousness in Christ with the legerdemain of pride. Leslie Newbigin, the scholar missionary, had it right when he said, "The Christian is one who has forever given up the hope of being able to think of himself as a good man." (Footnote 1: John Baille, Ed., A Diary of Readings (NY, Charles Scribner’s Sons, 1955) 327.) Outside of Christ we are not good, and we are only inside Christ if we are humble.

    Humility then ought to be our track as we pursue a life of faith in Christ. The Spirit, His Spirit, empowers such an endeavor. And the result is righteousness.

  • Wed Nov 26, 2008 5:21 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Philosophers discuss many strange topics, and they usually do so in a strange fashion. The strangest topic of all for the philosopher is ethics.

    Ostensibly the task of the ethicist it to investigate two questions: "What is good?" and "How can I be good?" The albatross of contemporary ethics is that it gets mired in the first question and never makes it to the second one. It stalls out on "What is good?" and never properly addresses "How do I become good?" This pushes ethics out of strangeness and towards perversity, for what good are volumes and volumes of theoretical discourse on goodness, if in the study you don’t get one whit closer to being good? We ought to study goodness so we can learn to be good not so that we can learn to be learned; for why study goodness save to be good?

    I should not be too hard on the philosopher, though, for they have good reason to be reticent in addressing the question, "How can I be good?" for ethics cannot answer this question. Rational discourse is utterly powerless to make a person good. To be clear, discussion might make the right path apparent, but discourse cannot provide the power to choose this path. And so ethics is in the difficult position of having to raise a question it cannot answer. To use Christian language, it does not have the power to transform the evil inside us, though, it knows the evil must be transformed. Thus ethics must fall silent, and fall silent it does.

    I know of only one source for the transformative power to be good: the genuine and persevering work of the Spirit in the life of the believer. Only in humbly trusting in Him, and the efficacy of Christ's death and resurrection in my life, do I find the resources to be good. True faith brings true righteousness. And righteousness is what the ethicist seeks; for righteousness is living right towards God. That is goodness realized.

    As a Christian I do not mean to smugly criticize the ethicist, lest I risk stealing away my righteousness in Christ with the legerdemain of pride. Leslie Newbigin, the scholar missionary, had it right when he said, "The Christian is one who has forever given up the hope of being able to think of himself as a good man." (Footnote 1: John Baille, Ed., A Diary of Readings (NY, Charles Scribner’s Sons, 1955) 327.) Outside of Christ we are not good, and we are only inside Christ if we are humble.

    Humility then ought to be our track as we pursue a life of faith in Christ. The Spirit, His Spirit, empowers such an endeavor. And the result is righteousness.

    – Ravi Zacharias

  • Wed Nov 26, 2008 3:45 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    matt, but let's remember that doing good and being good are two very different issues. The Bible states that we are all sinners and unworthy of being a child of God, but because God is good He allowed His only Son, Jesus Christ to come to this earth and die on the Cross in order to pay the penalty that only He could pay for all of our sins. And as a result if we choose to repent of our sin and turn to God by putting our complete faith/trust in the person and finished work of Christ alone we can become a child of God.

  • Wed Nov 26, 2008 3:39 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

    mathyoo -

    2 things. First, you completely mis-characterize how Christians give and support charities; to say we feed pastor's desire of high-end cars is absurd. As an example, after Hurricane Katrina, my church built and framed about 100 new houses and shipped them down to New Orleans (I attend a very large church, which is able to do this). We must have missed all the atheist food kitchens and shelters; the only ones we ran into were Christian-based ones. Maybe we were on the wrong streets?

    Second, the point on why you need God to speak of good and evil seems to have been lost in your reply. This is a fact admitted to by atheists who have worked their philosophy out to its logical conclusion. As just one example, in "River out of Eden", Richard Dawkins says, "Humans have always wondered about the meaning of life...life has no higher purpose than to perpetuate the survival of DNA...life has no design, no purpose, no evil and no good, nothing but blind pitiless indifference." Why does he say that?

    Because before you can call something evil, you have to know what good is. Before you know what good is, you have to have a moral framework to distinguish good from evil. Before you can have a moral framework, you have to have absolute and unchanging moral laws to build your framework (else you'll always be in doubt if your 'good' is really good). Before you can have absolute and unchanging moral laws, you have to have an absolute moral law giver, because laws don't appear from thin air. But that absolute moral law giver - that would be God, the one the atheist denies. So now just unwind, and you reach Dawkin's logical conclusion.

    More simply put by C.S. Lewis, "a man cannot call a line crooked unless he knows what a straight line looks like." Such a thing does not come from an individual, culture, or a mindless universe. So you see, without God, you have no absolute and unchanging straight line by which to distinguish good from evil; everything reverts to emotive-based ethics (e.g. "I don't like rape" rather than "Rape is wrong").

  • Wed Nov 26, 2008 3:28 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    matt, you're right if our doing of good is only motivated by fear and reward then our motives are wrong. God's Great Commandment teaches us that we are to wholeheartedly love God and to love others as well and that should be our motivation for doing good, to let God and others know that we love them. When this occurs we are rewarded not so much by stuff but rather we experience peace and contentment and joy in knowing we've done good. I believe that you don't have to be a Christian to experience those feeling as a result of doing good because I believe both our ability and desire to do good is the result of every human being, being created in the image of God. Plus our ability and desire to do good should not lead us to believe we are a child of God but that God does indeed love us and created us both on and for a purpose and He desires us to enter into a personal relationship with Him through the person and finished work of His Son, Jesus Christ alone.

  • Wed Nov 26, 2008 2:41 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Back to quality control concepts. Good is a term defined by the consumer. If the product meets or exceeds expectations then the consumer would call it 'good'. The same product not meeting another consumers expectations would call it 'bad'.

    Jesus said "why do you call me good? Only the Father in heaven is good." It's simply a matter of how you define good.

    In short, since only God is good then only what comes from Him is good. This is why Godly behavior is the Christian standard for good.

  • Wed Nov 26, 2008 2:00 pm Agree: 3   Disagree: 0

    as virtualmethod pointed out, no one is telling anyone else they can't say "Merry Christmas". I, as an atheist and secular humanist, am not offended in the least. Neither am I offended by my Jewish friends wishing me a Happy Hanukkah. I accept their well-wishes in the spirit they were given.

    Christians often tout how much they give to charities this time of year, but the atheists and secular humanists I know contribute as much or more, we just choose secular organizations to give to, rather than a church. We prefer that our money go to help as many people as possible, rather than for building pretty churches to worship in or buy the pastor that Escalade he's had his eye on lately.

    As for morality, I contend that you cannot be moral WITH God. If you are only performing good deeds because you fear punishment or expect reward, in the afterlife, is that truly moral? If the only reason you don't steal, murder or lie is that "God says so", can you possibly be truly a moral person? I say no. A moral person does good deeds because they know it's the right thing to do, because they feel compassion and empathy for their fellow human beings. A moral person doesn't engage in bad deeds because they know it's wrong, they treat others as they want to be treated, and they want to be considerate of others.

    People choose their morality and then use their religion/belief system to justify it, not the other way around.

  • Wed Nov 26, 2008 1:56 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    See the movie "Time Changer"

    http://www.timechangermovie.com/home.htm

  • Wed Nov 26, 2008 10:46 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    schumacr, thanks for the clarification on what Fred said!

  • Wed Nov 26, 2008 10:45 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    We have 28 churches in our association here in Southeast Kentucky in the heart of Appalachia and they gave 1,444 shoe boxes to Operation Christmas Child in the name of Jesus. Love for Christ and others causes people to do some amazing things for others.

  • Wed Nov 26, 2008 9:42 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    On Fred Edword's comments, see http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,450445,00.html (Colson got it right).

    On atheism's acts in the 20th century, see R.J. Rummel's book "Death by Government" that chronicles the logical outworkings of the atheistic philosophy (Stalin leads the way with 42 million dead). If you can refute Rummel's facts, I'd be interested in hearing it. Even Nietzsche predicted that the 20th century would be the bloodiest in history because of his death of God movement; he was right.

    On speaking with non-Christians, Christ commanded his followers to go into the world and make disciples by telling them the truth about God. How is this done? By talking to people. Yes, there are many worldviews and truth claims in the world - that doesn't mean they are all correct. All people may be created equal but not all truth claims are. It is logically incoherent to say, for example, that Islam and Christianity are both "right" when they make contradictory truth claims. Somebody's right and somebody's wrong; truth naturally excludes its opposite. Christ's claim that He is "the" way, "the" truth, and "the" life and that nobody comes to God but through Him is a pretty exclusive truth claim, wouldn't you say? The Apostle Paul asked those in Galatia, "So have I become your enemy now by telling you the truth?" It seems some on this forum would answer, "Yes!"

  • Wed Nov 26, 2008 9:32 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Virtual method,
    Jesus said that out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks. I see that, among other things, you have a real hang up about money - in your comments about tithing and maybe some atheistic irrationality in suggesting that church tithes are going to leaders of megachurches. Uh, have you checked lately? There are very few megachurches compared to the thousands of small churches of around 100 people, many of which are struggling just to pay the light bill.

    So will you now go to one of the many poor churches? I would hope so. I think your money hang up, and other comments, are simply revealing your condition of spiritual poverty. Why not come out of your virtual reality and come to Jesus? He will give you the peace that you need. I understand how angry your atheistic beliefs make you because in that belief system there is nobody to love you, no meaning, no basis for morality, just emptiness and anger at the world. Why not let the love of Jesus change your life?

Please help us to monitor our message boards by flagging comments that are unlawful, harmful, threatening, abusive, harassing, defamatory, vulgar, obscene, libelous, hateful, or racially, ethnically or otherwise objectionable.
Contact Us if you have any questions, comments, or concerns.
Comment on this story
ID Password

Don't have a Christian Post ID? Signing up is easy. Click Here

  • icon1
  • icon2
  • icon3
  • icon4
  • icon5
The Christian Post reserves the right to terminate the account of any User who violates our Terms of Use.
Advertisement
Advertisement
CP Shopping
  • Jewelry
  • Gifts
  • Health
  • DVD
  • Coins

Bracelets | Chains | Crosses | Earrings | Gemstone |

Featured contents & Giveaways
Joolwe :
Cross-pendant necklace
Zondervan

Struggling to succeed in the Nashville music scene, talented singer/songwriter Parker James finds the competition fierce even deadly. A young woman's murder, industry corruption, a

Featured Advertiser Links