The government body that enforces political campaign, lobbying, and conflict of interest laws in the state of California will be conducting an investigation of the Mormon church and its role in the campaign to ban gay marriage in the state.
The California Fair Political Practices Commission said this past week that it would investigate whether the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints accurately described its role in the campaign to pass Proposition 8 in response to a complaint by a gay rights group.
Fred Karger, founder of Californians Against Hate, accuses the religious body of failing to report the value of work it did to support Proposition 8, the constitutional amendment passed earlier this month by California voters that defines marriage as between one man and one woman.
“We are very pleased that the FPPC has agreed to launch an investigation based on our complaint,” expressed Karger, who filed a four-page complaint on Nov. 13, in a statement. “We’re hopeful the Mormon Church will fully cooperate with the investigation, and that we will find out the full extent of their involvement in the Yes on 8 campaign.”
Since the passage of Prop. 8 by a 52-to-48 percent vote, the Mormon church has been among the largest targets of outraged activists who want same-sex unions to be recognized as marriages.
“The Mormons played a vital role in the Prop 8 battle, and traditional marriage would have lost had it not been for their support,” explained Donald E. Wildmon, founder and chairman of the American Family Association, in an e-mail alert to supporters last Wednesday.
“While other churches were also involved in the battle to protect marriage – including Catholics and evangelicals – the homosexuals have singled out the Mormons as their target of anger,” he added.
In the months leading up to the Nov. 4 elections, the Mormon church had encouraged its members to work to pass California's Prop. 8 by volunteering their time and money for the campaign. Thousands of Mormons worked as grassroots volunteers and gave tens of millions of dollars to the campaign.
Following the passing of Prop. 8, protests erupted outside Mormon temples, Facebook groups formed telling people to boycott Mormon-affiliated companies, and Web sites such as mormonsstoleourrights.com began popping up, calling for an end to the religious group’s tax-exempt status.
Letters containing white powder - found later by the FBI to be nontoxic - were sent to the Salt Lake City headquarters of the religious group and to a temple in Los Angeles.
Utah's growing tourism industry and the star-studded Sundance Film Festival have also been targeted for a boycott by bloggers, gay rights activists and others seeking to punish the Mormon church for its aggressive promotion of California's ban on gay marriage.
"People of faith have been intimidated for simply exercising their democratic rights," Mormon church president Thomas S. Monson said in a statement.
"Attacks on churches and intimidation of people of faith have no place in civil discourse over controversial issues," he added. "People of faith have a democratic right to express their views in the public square without fear of reprisal. Efforts to force citizens out of public discussion should be deplored by people of goodwill everywhere."
Though Mormons and Christians often clash over theology, believers have been rallying together in support of the Mormon church, including the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops, which has offered "prayerful support and steadfast solidarity" to the Mormon church for its efforts on behalf of Prop. 8. Continue >>
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Gr8tgary,
Following your logic, anyone who eats lobster or wears polyester (or any mixed fabric) are an abomination unto the Lord, equal in sin as incestuous rapists, homosexuals and pedophiles.
I do hope you practice what you preach and steer clear of the Red Lobster (the whole shell fish thing), Halloween (cause wearing a costume is an abomination), and Banks. Yes, according to the bible charging or paying interest is an abomination.
And by your theory all are equal to the sin of being homosexual. Good luck trying to get into Heaven.
Having incest is just as much Abominiable as the act of Homosexuality, both acts are define within scripture as Abominible unto the Lord.
Daniel Paul wrote: "This is why the entire Bible is useful to me. It's not so much about events but the behavior of people in relation to those events. Yes, I believe in it as a history book but I get way more out of it looking at it from a sociology and psychology standpoint. It is a book which spells out the condition of mankind. The more things change the more they stay the same."
I couldn't agree more! And this is the exact reason for the OT included with the NT. Another phrase: What we learn from history is that we do not learn.
"many more parts will drop away under scrutiny and better education. "
The level of education has no impact on the level of wisdom. Wisdom says that one must understand the mindset of the people at the time in the Bible and see how God is addressing their attitudes and actions. As I look through the Bible, I see mankind as a constant. The mindset of man is the same although the individual focus may be different. This is also a problem I have with the concept of evolution. When studying the 'nature' of man throughout the Bible, one can see that man has not improved or made any real changes in 4000+ years.
This is why the entire Bible is useful to me. It's not so much about events but the behavior of people in relation to those events. Yes, I believe in it as a history book but I get way more out of it looking at it from a sociology and psychology standpoint. It is a book which spells out the condition of mankind. The more things change the more they stay the same.
it's difficult for me to tell which parts to keep. but i know that thoughtful people in this world are working on that. an interesting pbs special on today was "Jesus to Christ." this scholarship eventually trickles down into the general education of the populace. many "parts to leave out" have indeed been left out by most of Chrisendom by now (21st century). many more parts will drop away under scrutiny and better education. the best paarts of the Bible will never fall away, because they are helpful to us and our fellows. every 50 years it is remarkable to see the 'useless' scripture gone, where the valuable part survives - and always will.
Believer,
Thankyou for listening. You have given me a great deal to ponder on, for which I greatly appreciate.
mburrell,
What part of the Bible would you like to keep?
"keep the valuable part of the Bible, not the nonsense"
I do. The valuable part starts with Genesis 1:1 and ends with Revelation 22:21. The nonsense is where man ignores what is written and leans on their own understanding.
and The Rapture is DEFINITELY creepy! think about it. what a fairy tale. grow up! keep the valuable part of the Bible, not the nonsense that separates you from so many people.
delightinthelord:
What's creepy?
Men with men?
Woman with woman?
Call me strange - or creepy, but, yes, I think Mormonism is creepier than men with men and women with women.
"I cannot love a woman, I would never ever be one flesh with her, but I can be and have a partner, and I can do the best within my context"
You have made our point brilliantly. It is YOUR context and not GODs context. Your relationship is not of God.
gs, there is a huge difference between being in a loving relationship and a sexual relationship. No one is saying you can't be in a loving relationship with another person and most importantly God does not say that. I have a sister-in-law who went through a very difficult marriage and divorce and has no desire to be with a man but she is not a homosexual and she shares her home with another woman who went through a similar experience and they live together as close friends, plus they are foster parents of three toddlers whose Mom tried to kill one of them and they are providing these kids with a safe and loving home to grow up in. Whether you believe it or not I do indeed hear your struggle but I also know that God will supply your every need if you allow Him and He'll give you the ability to enter into loving relationships that are void of sexual intimacy if you let Him, my prayer is that you will let God be God in every area of your life to include your sex life.
rusty,
"...I dont marry. Condemned for not being one flesh and for not populating...."
Whoever would do that does not know the scriptures. Paul, in I Corinthians 7, encourages us to remain single and celebate. Because marriage distracts us from the ministry that God has for us.
Believer
I couldnt possibly share any more of what is in my heart. Everything that I have said has been savaged and I have been insulted and people jump unfair conclusions. No, I think that this will be my last post
It is easy for you people who have sexuality on your side. You are allowed to have your loving relationships, you are allowed to have families, and you are attracted to people of the opposite sex. It is easy for you to do what comes naturally to you
I cant love people of the opposite sex as you and other people on this forum can. God knows I tried to be straight, but it doesnt work, and whether it is genetics or an environmental thing that makes people that way, well I dont think it matters, the fact is that I cannot, no matter what, love a woman as a straight man can. And dont you dare try to say I didnt try hard enough. You know nothing of the struggles I went through and I will not have those struggles dismissed or trivialised by you or Prophet or TrustntheLord
So what does a gay man do? I cannot marry a woman. I cannot love her as a man should love his wife. It would be unfair to her. We would never be one flesh as ordained by God. Even this web site (Christian post at http://www.christianpost.com/article/20081129/homosexuality-misconceptions-in-ministry.htm) acknowledges that many homosexuals cannot change their sexual orientation. I am one of those homosexuals, and I accept that this is how I am in this life
Why did God create Eve? It was to provide Adam with a help meet (partner) and to populate and replenish the Earth, and they were to do it as one flesh. I physically cannot obey that commandment. I cannot love a woman, I would never ever be one flesh with her, but I can be and have a partner, and I can do the best within my context
It seems that no matter what I do I am condemned. I get married. I can populate, but am condemned for not being one flesh. I dont marry. Condemned for not being one flesh and for not populating. I go into a gay relationship, condemned for not populating but can be one flesh
God intends for His children to be in loving relationships. I cannot do that in a heterosexual context. God intends for his children to have children. I cannot do that in a homosexual context
I simply do the best that I can in my context. I have obeyed God and formed a loving relationship. I obey God by assisting with the populating and replenishing thing by being a foster parent. And yes, you are right, I am not doing the heterosexual man and woman one flesh thing, but I do the best that I can in my context. I am not promoting multiple sexual partners for gay men. I am promoting loving, committed relationships, and an enthusiastic assistance of heterosexual parenting
I dont know, maybe its like Moses and the Canaanites or the calf worshippers, sure killing was a sin, but the Israelites did the best that they could in their context
Anyway, this is my last post. I am spent
gs, I could do that but with something this crucial I'd really love to hear your heart in this matter. I mean this is who you are and it could determine your final destiny and destination. But if you're not willing I'll be disappointed but I can respect that as well.
Homosexuality is no more a genetic result than sex addictions, drug addiction, compulsive gambling, compulsive lying, etc, etc.
Rusty just "responded to some of the ill informed comments about homosexuality."
I'd rather be "ill-informed" on homosexuality than completely illiterate on the Bible.
Yeah, Rusty it is all about entering by the Narrow Gate. Good luck to you on the Wide path of Destruction, it's a little like the loss leader lines at Walmart. There is a stampede.
DelightntheLord,
I actually dont know how our conversation got to here. I originally got on to make a comment about the mormon political activity in california, and responded to some of the ill informed comments about homosexuality.
It was intersting hearing your narrow view on christianity.
Good bye.
Dear Misled Rusty
You find my comments unhelpful? I can't do much about that.
All that was asked of you was to find ONE bible verse to show that God approves homosexual love and/or that the design through creation can be AC/DC adaptable.
Wasn't asking you to be articulate...just informed.
There are no interpretations of the bible, unless you make one...and you can't even do that.
So, why are you here in this forum talking to Christians about the bible and advocating anti biblical same sex.
What, really is your point, Rusty?
Point is....homosexuality is a sin, just as incest, fornication, adultery, or any other sexual immorality. As well as lying, murder, theft, bitterness, pride, greed, etc, etc.
You haven't gotten the point yet?
oh, just get to the point already.
im sure you have an answer if I agree its gross or I dont agree its gross.
"Stupid"?
No, you just strayed from the topic. You said " I think that the Bible encourages loving, monogamous, life long relationships..."
Adult incestuous relationships falls into that catagory. But is it that you just think incest is gross?
Believer,
Please refer to link to article below.
http://wwwstaff.murdoch.edu.au/~loader/homosexuality.html
gs, my concern for anybody in any area of their life is they are living in synch with the Word of God and especially in those areas where God speaks so clearly such as the one we're discussing, so I would really challenge you to determine for yourself where God stands on these matters by using His Word to guide you. But if you have scripture to support your views I would love to hear them as well, thanks.
Prophet,
Well, you could have just said that at the start in stead of playing that stupid game.
And yes, I disagree with your interpretation of the Bible.
No, adult incest relationships are no different from homosexual relationships. They are both sins. Don't forget, the original question was the view of incest from a Biblical standpoint, not a humanistic standpoint. Humans can justify anything and everything they do. God's word is plain. Homosexuality and incest are sinful.
Prophet,
OK then.
2 brothers are gay, they fall in love, should they be able to have a relationship? No, why? Because there are other gay men that are not their family that they can fall in love with.
A brother and a sister fall in love, should they be able to have a relationship? No, why? Because there are other people of the opposite sex that are not their family that they can fall in love with.
A gay man falls in love with another gay man, they are not brothers, should they be able to have a relationship? Yes, why? Because they are unable to fall in love with someone of the opposite sex.
A man falls in love with a woman, they are not related, should they be able to have a relationship? Yes, why? Because they are unable to fall in love with someone of the same sex.
I completely disagree with your assertion that homosexual relations are the same as incestuous relations, or whatever point you were trying to make. Head in the sand, please, enough with the insults.
DelightntheLord,
Well, there is not much I can do about your disappointment in me sending a link to an article, but that is how I have chosen to communicate my beliefs as the article is very articulate on matters that I could not articulate as well (and then you would attack me for not being articulate enough).
Please read the article. I dont actually agree with everything in the article, but it gets across the general gist of what I believe.
As for the Timothy, incapability of introspection and denial references (insults), I find these comments unhelpful. What is to stop me from claiming the same about you other than your claim that your interpretation of the Bible is better than mine?
"both of us feel justified by this because of our faith"
Rusty I am justified by His Word not by a 'feeling of faith'.
"I am not running from pain. Certainly I had a rough time dealing with my sexuality as a child and young adult, but that is in the past."
If so past, why express it in the very real present here in this forum as somehow a justification for you or to back up your argument.
It is too hard to be in denial...especially when you deny the Christian Scriptures and practise denial so much.
I don't believe you are capable of true intropection and I believe you to be intellectually lazy by believing articles on the internet and heretical teachers.
Surley, you are an example of:
"For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers;
and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables."
2 Timothy 4:34.
Very sorry to see you go that way.
Gosh, I'm disappointed to get a web address for a biblical answer, Rusty.
Dude, you got to KNOW what it is you believe if you are to consider yourself a Christian.
Are you a Christian because you were born in America?
You can't ride on the coat tails of American Christianity or adhere to someone's opinion (Bill Loader) about what makes you a Christian. You cannot slap a label over your breast and declare alliegence and not know why.
Christianity is Submission to Christ alone!
This isn't a theoretical debate on the issues where one can 'agree to disagree'!
Man, your Eternal Soul hangs in the balance of what you believe and what you will not submit to God.
This is no intellectual excercise here, this is real life...and eternal death. I'm very sorry for your complacency, it will be the end of you.
The reason why you should think about inces is because they are no different then homosexuals. They just want the right to marry who they want to marry.
rusty,
The ol' head-in-the-sand trick. Well, you're gonna have to think about it sometime. It's right around the corner.
But maybe you're "I don't want to think about it..." reply could be that if you do, you will realize how off your views of homosexuality are.
Prophet,
This is my last response to incest:
I have never thought about it in any detail and to be honest I dont want to. I can think of no reason why I could possibly want to research it other than your constant badgering about the topic. Please, I dont understand your obsession with incest. If you really want to talk about it, then maybe one of the other members of this forum will be interested, but I am not.
Believer and DelightntheLord
Regarding my justification for same sex relationships, I know this is cheating, but the article below closely aligns with my views.
http://wwwstaff.murdoch.edu.au/~loader/homosexuality.html
And no, I dont belong to the Metropolitan Church or a church that teaches that Paul or others were gay. I am familiar with the teaching, but it is not something that I subscribe to.
I think that we are going to have to agree to disagree on this one. Obviously you and I are not willing to change our positions, and both of us feel justified by this because of our faith.
For the record though, when I told my family and friends that I was gay, there was initial shock and disappointment, but everyone, except for a few people from my old church, accepted my decision (not necessarily agreed with, but accepted) and I have very meaningful and happy relationships with them now. I am not running from pain. Certainly I had a rough time dealing with my sexuality as a child and young adult, but that is in the past. You are going to have to find another theory to try to explain my behaviour, because your current one is wrong (though I am sure your theory fits into your viewpoint of the world).
What's creepy?
Men with men?
Woman with woman?
Children with adults?
Animals with people?
Life without God?
Mormons, not so creepy; just strange. You know they truly are the "latter-day-saints", they will have to endure God's wrath here on earth but I'll betcha many will turn to the real Christ once the Church is Raptured.
But the idea of 'raptured' might be a little creepy to mburrell.
"face it: mormons are creepy"
In all fairness, there are many creepy people from all walks of life. I'm sure there is at least one person on this planet that thinks you are creepy! I know there are a few in my little corner who think I am! Imagine that....
Still, I think the Shriners come off as being a bit on the creepy side yet they do a thing or two for children. There are many Mormons who don't view their religion as being that much different from being Baptist or Presbyterian.
face it: mormons are creepy. they are creepy in their church life. they are creepy in their stand against marriage.
Well, Believer, I have to concur on Feet missing it on verse 23 of chap 5 in Galations.
I think he has a bigger problem with the "crucify" part of verse 24;
"Now those who BELONG to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires."
He tragically doesn't not belong to Christ no matter how much Scripture he cuts and pastes or how often he refers to the "spirit" of things or even the christ-in-me prattle he uses.
I fear he is one that has been given over by God to believe a lie.
Daniel Paul
Amen. One does not study every counterfit 20 dollar bill. One simply studies the original design, and anything else is automatically a forgery.
forgiven, the fancy word for that is plenary, that wise Pastor taught me that word so I figured I'd show it off!!
Good afternoon, believer,
You know that wise pastor...he also said that all scripture must be in harmony with the whole.
Child-like, Amen.
Delight, I agree and would add that ALL the fruits of the Spirit are meant to be in agreement with God's natural design and will for His creation.
"The Bible (Gods word) doesnt contain a full record of the history of marriage"
Sure it does. My God is not schizoid or double-minded. He defined marriage as being between one man and one woman. He created one man and one woman. His design requires both a man and a woman for procreation.
What the Bible does not contain is a full record of how man has twisted and messed up the concept of marriage to fit the lusts of man.
Delight, I read your post to rusty about the fruit of the Holy Spirit and concur completely, but isn't it interesting that feet wants to ignore the fruit of self-control when he posts on this matter?
forgiven, how true about us having to be taught how to misread the Bible and if we think about it didn't Christ say that all we need is simple childlike faith to become a child of God and with that being true would that same concept not be true with the understanding of His Word.
I've been searching the posts diligently for some Scriptural justification for Rusty and I see further down that he ,too uses the same old saw as Feet does; the fruits of the Spirit.
Rusty has mentioned Galations 5:22 but hasn't considered either Galations 5:23 and 24.
God's Word is not a buffet...you cannot say, "well, I feel that I have 'love' and 'joy' and 'kindness' and 'goodness' and 'gentleness and I'm very "longsuffering" here on this board defending my homosexual love to these 'homophobic' Christains."
No, it is exactly verses 23 and especially 24 where those Fruits become anchored. It is by crucifying the flesh and it's passions and by having self control that one can even consider themselves as having the Fruit of the Spirit.
All the fruit mentioned in Galations 5:22 can be subjective unless 23 and 24 are obeyed.
Thanks, Forgiven for that. I think I like to poke a stick at posters who dogmatically assert their right to God's Kingdom without the necessary submission to God as is required.
I think about Jesus' response to the Pharisees saying they are but white washed tombs and dead mans bones and I think I feel the same way as He did although granted the Pharisees were on the flip side of the coin; legalism versus liberalism.
We are called to love and poking a stick doesn't feel like love. But sometimes the stick hits a soft spot and gets attention from the hearer (the pokee?). That is my motivation, that something said here on this forum may get some of these staunch pro-homosexual advocates to rethink their positions and to expose the lie that a person can have homosexual sex without incurring the wrath of God.
Deight,
You're a good man.
I hear you. I read in an article once that someone has to be taught to misunderstand the Bible. Which goes along with Paul's warning that men will no longer adhere to sound doctrine and accumulate teachers for themselves. It's disheartening.
You know, I think I need to apologize to Rusty for my attitude of last night. I think I just get very tired of seeing all this justification for 'gay' Christians to hold onto something God has determined not only to be a practise that is not in the best interests of His children but also a sin that is more than just a little distasteful to Him. I can't wrap my mind around someone who wants to hold on to sin and yet feel that they are devoted Christians.
I know it must be a terrible burden to fight same sex attraction and I understand how it is in the human condition to find way to allieviate the pain felt by seeking approval somewhere and end up at a church like the Metropolitan where they teach that David and Jonathan had homosexual relations and that Paul himself was probably gay. I think that is what makes me angry...not necessarily the people who are posting here.
It seems Rusty, that you hold onto the pain of being osterasized by your small, rural community and by your parents religiosity and you are nursing that pain, making the struggle worse. Homosexuality is not your identity, you are human first. If you are a Christian then that should be the second identifying factor. I think the struggle is intensified when we see our sexuality as being a primary factor for who we are.
This lifetime is only a vapor of time, it is not the end of our story and our love for God and His Word should give us enough power to crucify our passion and desires (Gal 5:24) for this short time, rather than spend all this time going about and seeking justification for sinful behavior on this temporal plane. God is eternal and He says we are too. I want to spend eternity in righteousness with Him and want Rusty too as well. Clear reading of Scripture indicates that Rusty will not dwell with God because of His lack of belief and trust in God alone. I think that is very tragic that the enemy of our souls has won another one for his domain.
rusty,
Then let me ask you again...
So, you believe that incest relationships among adults is ok?
gs, imagine it, I've lived it at times while in the military! But do you have any scripture to support your views on God's design for marriage?
must be tired..typing fingers not working.
Okay, in that case, since they are not on the tip of your tongue we can wait until tomorrow, I'll check back with you then.
As a side note; I don't worry about what people say about my Christianity.
Woorying about how someone treats me is a pride issue and i don't wnat to get all prideful thinking the world should tresat me nicely.
So, good night for now.
Here again is an area where you are a little messed up on...
"Yes, I am talking about the same Leviticus that condemns same sex Pagan sexual behaviour (not homosexuality in general)."
So, homosexuality is wrong for the pagans but okay for self professing Christians?
The pagans already are condemned no matter what behavior they are engaged with.
So, Rusty, where are those Scripture referrences, I can't believe it taken all this time to look them up.
I generally try to find 2 supporting scriptures before I make up my mind on theology; I can give you two on my part and to cut you some slack, I'll only ask for one.
Can you provide one scripture that supports homosexual love as being approved by God?
I'm going to want to go to bed soon, so anytime today would be good for me.
DelightntheLord
Again, no.
I was simply explaining why I had bad feelings (as you put it) about homosexuality when I was younger. To put it another way, I didnt have bad feelings because I had same sex attraction, I had bad feelings because I had same sex attraction and everyone around me rejecting people with same sex attraction.
Just imagine being the only Christian in a world full of atheists, and every day the people around you mock Christianity. You dont feel bad for being a Christian, but you dont like the way people treat you, because their comments hurt and offend something that you hold dear. Similarly, I had same sex attraction in a world (including my family) that hated gays.
PS the scriptures will have to wait until tomorrow (dont worry they will come). I need to go to bed now.
God bless and good night.
Rusty,
If you're so sure God has rubber stamped your homosexual love then surely you have Scriptural back up and evidence for your belief?
Right?
Well, bust out...both Believer and I are waiting to hear what it is you come up with for justifying your sin with such passion.
Oh, so it's all somebody else fault?
God didn't give you a conscience?
You are a victim of your environment?
God says you are without excuse.
"I had committed no sin, but still felt so worthless (that in itself makes no sense). It wasnt until my late 20s that I realised that this was all wrong and that I needed a new approach to the situation."
Indeed, you found a new approach, which isn't so new after all...it's called denial of sin, we all want to do that when what we desire outweighs our desire to love God with all of our mind or to present our bodies as a living sacrifice.
Actually, believer, I think asked DelightntheLord and not you. My apologies. Its getting hard to keep on top everything that has been said.
Is that Dougie Houser???
http://www.funnyordie.com/videos/c0cf508ff8/prop-8-the-musical-starring-jack-black-john-c-reilly-and-many-more-from-fod-team-jack-black-craig-robinson-john-c-reilly-and-rashida-jones
DelightntheLord
No, thats not it at all. My family are deeply religious, and I was taught from a young age that same sex attraction was evil, sinful and against Gods will (much like your position). I actually believed that God did not approve of homosexuality.
My family would joke about homosexuals and comment how disgusting it was when a gay character would turn up on a TV show. In addition, I was from a rural area and gay people were treated very poorly by the community and even bashed simply to teach them a lesson. I wanted so badly to not have same sex attraction because I did not want to disappoint my family or God or to be ostracised by my community.
As stated in earlier posts, I felt guilty, unworthy, unwanted etc. simply for having same sex attraction. I had committed no sin, but still felt so worthless (that in itself makes no sense). It wasnt until my late 20s that I realised that this was all wrong and that I needed a new approach to the situation.
Prophet,
Yes, I am talking about the same Leviticus that condemns same sex Pagan sexual behaviour (not homosexuality in general). You might be interested to know that Exodus 32 also condemns Pagan sexual rituals amongst heterosexuals.
And I am sorry, I only have a superficial understanding of the incest passages in Leviticus so I cannot provide any informed comment on whether they are referring to incest in orgies or Pagan rituals. Again, I have had no reason to study this before.
Believer,
I believe I asked first.
gs, please cite your scriptural basis for your belief?
Or how about this argument?
Leviticus is talking about incest in orgies or in reference to pagan rituals...not a loving, committed relationship.
rusty,
Leviticus...the same Leviticus that condemns homosexuality? You sure you want to use Leviticus to condemn incest? Because if you do, then you will need to condmen homosexuality.
God is Love but loving feelings do not make something true, objectively.
Rusty, only God knows your heart and you say you have prayed but something was missing...stepping out in faith or really wanting to hear His answer through His expressed word?
We cannot ask for extra guidance once we reject what He has already said.
So, you went to the Metropolitan church to feel good about all those bad feelings you had about same sex attraction.
Why do you suppose you had bad feelings about your 'orientation' in the first place?
Perhaps, your God given conscience was screaming out and you chose a church that tickles your ears thereby burning your conscience because you are now heeding false teaching to make yourself feel better.
So, now all is good with you; your feelings of self hate over same sex attraction is now all set tight in your mind and your lifestyle as honoring to God?
Wow. You have been decieved.
DelightntheLord
Funny, I thought God was Love. My mistake.
On what basis would you say my stubborn mindset has kept me from falling in love with a woman? To help your answer here are some facts. For 15 years I prayed and fasted to God to change me so that I would no longer have same sex attraction. No answer. For at least 8 years I asked God to help me find just one woman that I could love so I could marry and have a family. No answer. I go to God in the deepest despair, hating myself for not changing, wanting to feel some purpose and worth in my life. I am led to a Church that teaches me how to participate in a loving, committed relationship and sets me up as a foster parent.
Believer,
Again, my belief is that God encourages/commands (or ordains as you put it now) loving, committed, monogamous relationships, and that He does not condemn these types of relationships in the same sex context, though He does appear to condemn incestuous relationships.
gs, just because a practice is in the Bible does not mean that God condones it let alone ordained it and the only type of marriage He ordained was one man and one woman united as one in His sight for life and He also ordained that sexual intimacy would be reserved for the marriage bed of one man and one woman united as one in the sight of God for life through marriage, so that would mean that a homosexual couple would be living in sin if they engaged in sexual intimacy since they would and could not be married in the sight of God regardless of what the civil authorities dictate. Now as far as them as a couple getting the same legal rights and benefits as a heterosexual couple that could be resolved by the strenghtening of domestic partnership laws for two people who share the same domicile and are considered each others primary caregiver regardless of their genders or sexual involvement. But I see that a homosexual couple could have a loving relationship and still be celibate.
"You say same sex relationships are prohibited, but there is no clear scriptural evidence for this assertion."
Rusty, the prohibition is found in the same verses you choose to ignore (or re-interpret) and these have been quoted here over and over again.
"Loving feelings" are not the criteria by which we as finite humans are to judge God's Word.
His Word stands alone and you are free to ignore it to your own destruction.
In part, your stubborn mindset has kept you from falling in love with woman.
You doggedly seek 'evidence' to back up what you believe about yourself as experienced through your senses as a fallen human.
It really is very simple, you're just choosing to ignore it and invent your own theology.
No skin off my nose...whatever floats your boat; but do know you will be called into account for ignoring the clear prohibition against homosexual sex by God Himself.
You may explain your position here on these posts but once you are in front of God...I don't think you'll be able to justify your position and have Him agree with your viewpoint.
Prophet,
Apparently Leviticus 18:6-18 prohibits incest. I guess thats it then.
Prophet,
That is unfair and you are putting words in my mouth. I have clearly stated that my belief is that God encourages/commands loving, committed, monogamous relationships as evidenced in the Bible, and that He does not condemn these types of relationships in the same sex context. God has most certainly condemned some same sex behaviour (e.g. homosexual rape, and Pagan sex rituals) just as he has condemned some heterosexual behaviour.
I do not know what Gods will is regarding incestuous relationships as I have not considered, prayed about or researched this topic.
DelightntheLord,
You say same sex relationships are prohibited, but there is no clear scriptural evidence for this assertion.
That said, I do agree that homosexual monogamy does not equal heterosexual monogamy for very obvious reasons. Trust me, I would love to be able to love a woman and raise a family with her. I tried for years to fall in love with a woman, but my hopes, prayers and aspirations for this were never answered. I simply have no attraction to women. I think that having my own kids would be great and I sadly accept that I will never be able to do this (well, I could do it, but it would not be done within the bounds of love so I choose not to do it). That does not however mean that homosexual monogamy is not worthwhile within its own bounds, and it does not mean that God condemns same sex relationships.
Also, please forgive me if I refuse to discuss the mechanics of same sex sex with you. I have no interest in your sexual practices and cannot see the benefit of going into such a discussion. However I disagree that sex has no other purpose than to excite the sex organs. I consider sex to be part of my bonding with my partner. I reserve those feelings and expressions for him only. It is part of what makes us a committed, loving and monogamous partnership. It is more than just some form of carnal pleasure. As with barren heterosexual couples, sex has purpose and is an important part of a homosexual couples union.
"seem to disagree with whether a loving same sex relationship is a sin or not"
Rusty,
We disagree only because God has not made allowance for same sex love; it is prohibited.
When He says it is an abomination I think He is specifically referring to the homosexual sex act as being against or a mockery of His design and quite frankly, a little disgusting because of the lack of santitation and lack of purpose other than exciting the sex organs...whether there is a feeling of love in your heart or not. God has made a prohibition against homosexuality regardless of whether it be the Pagans or otherwise or even christians to which this verse is directed.
You are splitting hairs to support your relative view through your experience and seeking justification for doing what God has condemned.
Although I admire your dedication caring for foster children, homosexual monogamy doesn't equal monogamous marriage between one man and one woman, simply because the Creator designed specifically two different to make one whole and therefore complementary one flesh to fufil His design.
Any other interpretation of God's created design and His prohibition against homosexual 'love' is just self serving.
Or whatever they want.
No scripture is needed. All that is needed is the proof you gave. God condones loving relationships, with whomever, and however many people, they want.
Prophet,
To be honest, I have not thought about it much as the concept is something that I have not had to consider in my own life. Though I do admit that I have had difficulty with the concept when considering Adam and Eves children.
Do you have some scriptural references that will add light to the subject?
So, you believe that incest relationships among adults is ok?
Prophet,
See that is where we disagree. I think that the Bible encourages loving, monogamous, life long relationships, and I do not think it condemns such a relationship in the same sex context.
If I am wrong, then I will have to accept Gods judgement. However, from where I stand, it would be more of a sin for me to not form a loving relationship and not to assist heterosexual couples in raising a family. My life has been so full of rewarding moments since I have been in a loving relationship, and I cannot believe that God does not approve of these moments. Truly being in a committed loving relationship is a wonderful thing.
I think that the Christian community, as my Church does, should be embracing gay people, so that they too can enjoy the blessings of learning about and living a Christ centred life.
rusty,
Don't forget. The Bible condemns homosexuality in it's entirety too.
Actually, now that I think about it I do.
My apologies.
rusty,
You asked if I heard anything.
I said yes.
You said "so that's a no then."
And you don't think your last comment sounded foolish?
DelightntheLord,
Yes, I agree with you about believing and trusting in the Lord, however we seem to disagree with whether a loving same sex relationship is a sin or not. I do not think that the Bible clearly states that a loving same sex relationship is a sin (though it does condemn a range of Pagan same sex acts and homosexual rape). In fact the Bible encourages loving, monogamous, life long relationships, and that is something that a same sex couple should be able to works towards because there are so many benefits that come from such a relationship (though I think that we disagree on that too). The benefits of encouraging homosexuals to form committed relationships include increased quality of life for the couple and reduced promiscuity. Exactly the same benefits as enjoyed by committed heterosexual couples. Homosexual couple can also assist in Gods commandment to multiply and replenish the Earth by assisting heterosexual couple with bringing up children (e.g. I am a foster parent).
Believer,
I think you will find that there are 7 recognised forms of marriage practiced in the Bible, and yes they are all heterosexual. However, the Bible also encourages/commands loving relationships, and that cannot be fully expressed by many homosexuals in a heterosexual relationship (though I do have a friend who is gay and in a heterosexual relationship. Good for him I say. I tried that, but I could not fall in love with a woman no matter how hard I tried or how much I petitioned God). Correct me if I am wrong, but my understanding is that you think homosexuals should obey Gods command to be celibate, whereas I think that they should obey Gods command to form a loving relationship.
Prophet,
Thankyou for the insult
One characteristic I see in Galations chap 5 that get's very little press is this one; "long-suffering".
Long suffering in many ways; like believing and trusting in God and His word while all your feelings tell you contrary. Regardless of what my human mind and heart tell me; I choose to follow Jesus as He is very clear about what sin is.
Bearing the Cross....
rusty,
LOL. No, thats a "yes". Which you already knew, you just chose to make yourself look foolish. For what reason, I don't know why.
gs, God gave one definition for marriage and it is found in Genesis 2:24 and Christ also affirmed it in Matthew 19:4-6. God never ordained polygamy at any time and if you see the damage caused by polygamy to the families of Abraham, Jacob, David, and Solomon it's pretty obvious God was not pleased with the their polygamous marriages.
So thats a no then.
Yes, homosexuality is a sin. And God so deeply wants His children to separate themselves from sin, because it keeps them from Him. But God cannot have communion with sin.
Have you heard anything?
rusty,
I've been exchanging scriptures with homosexuals for years on here. And yes, they have heard nothing. Good night.
prophet (lower case),
Yes I agree with your last post, however we seem to have a difference of opinion with what God expects of us. I imagine that we could exchange scriptures for hours on the topic and get nowhere. God bless, i am off to sleep now.
rusty,
Galatians 5?
I like the first item in that list...love. I don't think it's very loving to God to disobey Him, do you? And when a person willingly disobeys God, he does not love God, and the fruit is not in him.
Oh boy, the polygomy angle again. believer you must have some serious patience.
Good luck, gs, with the polygomy angle.
believer,
well, if you are so interested in Gods definition of marriage, then I guess that means you would like a return of polygamy or arranged marriages as practiced in the Bible. No? Surely you can appreciate then that the definition of marriage, even Gods definition has been practiced differently over the years
The point that I am getting at is something along the lines of Galatians 5:22 the fruits of the Spirit are love, joy, peace, long-suffering, kindness, goodness, faith, temperance etc. What I am saying is that I have love, joy, peace etc. in my life i.e. I am genuinely happy. I cannot accept that God does not want me to be happy and to experience all of these fulfilling aspects of my life, and I can see no reason why I would go to Hell for experiencing and pursuing true happiness (as opposed to pleasure). Im not promoting bestiality, divorce, stealing, adultery etc. as some have suggested. I just want a framework where homosexual people can pursue a meaningful life WITH GOD. It just so happens that I think that a meaningful life means allowing a person to establish a monogamous relationship that is caring and loving, and I accept that sometimes some people will want to do that with someone of the same sex. Yeah, sure, they wont be able to have kids, but so what? they can still contribute to society, they can be faithful to each other and they can still have faith in God.
In addition, the thought of going back to the way things were, the feelings of worthlessness, the depression etc. is unbearable. Fighting homosexuality is a horrible horrible experience that I don’t wish on anyone. I cannot accept God wants anyone to be in that state.
DelightntheLord and prophet (lower case),
The point that I am getting at is something along the lines of Galatians 5:22 – the fruits of the Spirit are love, joy, peace, long-suffering, kindness, goodness, faith, temperance etc. What I am saying is that I have love, joy, peace etc. in my life i.e. I am genuinely happy. I cannot accept that God does not want me to be happy and to experience all of these fulfilling aspects of my life, and I can see no reason why I would go to Hell for experiencing and pursuing true happiness (as opposed to pleasure). Im not promoting bestiality, divorce, stealing, adultery etc. as some have suggested. I just want a framework where homosexual people can pursue a meaningful life WITH GOD. It just so happens that I think that a meaningful life means allowing a person to establish a monogamous relationship that is caring and loving, and I accept that sometimes some people will want to do that with someone of the same sex. Yeah, sure, they wont be able to have kids, but so what? they can still contribute to society, they can be faithful to each other and they can still have faith in God.
In addition, the thought of going back to the way things were – the feelings of worthlessness, the depression etc. is unbearable. Fighting homosexuality is a horrible horrible experience that I don’t wish on anyone. I cannot accept God wants anyone to be in that state.
gs, by the way you still haven't shared what the new definition of marriage will be if same-sex marriage becomes the law of the land or if there can even be one?
gs, I'm not interested in the history of marriage when it comes to defining it, I just need to know God's definition and that settles it for me since He's the one who invented it in the first place. The same as I'm not interested in other peoples or religions view of salvation only God's plan of salvation because His plan is the only one that works because He said so!
"No. My God, allows same-sex marriage"
Rusty, if that is the case then your god is not the God of the Bible and not a god who can save...simply a convenient god made after your own likeness. I know about the god of the Metropolitan Church and I understand what they teach about homosexuality.
It sounds like your love for god is based solely on the fact that he makes you feel good. What kind of love is this? A worldly love; I love you as long as you make me feel good.
I am not unsympathetic to your plight of having homosexual attractions, we all struggle with these things but whether homo or hetero-sexual one is admonished to be chaste until we are able to be married in the design by which the Creator; one man one woman (unless we are gifted with celebacy). What you feel is subjective and if you did believe in God, then you would know this life is not all there is. In fact it is but a vapor. We live in a fallen world, we all suffer but there is hope and at the end of the race we will be victorious if we trust God and not live life to please the flesh, leaning on our own understanding.
As far as why God hasn't punished other nations; well, first the time for judgment is close but not here yet but mainly because we as a nation are founded on Biblical principals and we have been blessed in the past because we held to them and honored God. turning our backs as we have has left this nation much less prosperous than in the past. Take a look at the news, look at all the hate and anger and lawless which is abounding, economic collaspe and as we move further away, things will only get worse.
rusty,
You can use a lower case "p" with me. There really is only one Prophet.
Justifying your sin by acts of good doesn't go very far.
"But God, I'm only stealing from the rich to give to the poor!" doesn't cut it. Sin is still sin.
Believer,
The Bible (Gods word) doesnt contain a full record of the history of marriage, since the Bible hasnt been added on to since about 200AD or so. Wikipedia provides this information. I think that you would find that the polygamous, arranged marriages sometimes referred to in the Bible are somewhat offensive by todays standards.
prophet (lower case),
I made a choice to establish a home where I could develop a loving relationship and foster children in need. Sorry if developing a meaningful relationship and caring for needy children offends you (or your narrow interpretation of the Bible) in any way.
gs, wikipedia or the Word of God, that's a no-brainer! God defines it at the very time He created Adam and Eve so I'll stick with God's definition on this one.
"Is your forgiving and loving God going to send them all to Hell and be done with it?"
Here again...if giving His son to die in our place wasn't enough reason to 'die to self' and live for Christ then exactly why should God forgive someone? It sounds like it would be like the old saying 'throwing good money after bad'.
"DP, I have said countless times before, no, I have never been molested or abused in any way, shape or form, and the assertion that I may have been is pretty offensive. "
In this day in age it is possible for any of us to have been abused in some way. No offense was intended. Just trying to get a better picture. Again, I don't pretend to know you personally. This is why I ask questions.
rusty,
You see, God gives us a choice. And the only one's who go to hell are the ones who choose to.
Mike,
You are right. So your comment about NAMBLA has absolutely nothing to do with my previous post. So why did you direct it at me?
No, they'll do that themselves.
Prophet,
Well, obviously we have a difference of opinion here. What do you suggest then should happen to the homosexual population? Is your forgiving and loving God going to send them all to Hell and be done with it?
Prophet: 1. I did not mention incest in that post, but you just did, so no, I did not call them disgusting. 2. I did not bring up child molestation, I brought up NAMBLA, which is a group I had no idea about until folks such as yourself brought it to my attention, so let's not play the blame game (and didn't you say you never lower yourself to such methods?)
Delight, I wouldn't say I base my beliefs on science, but I think God gave us wondrous brains for a reason and its foolish to use them for literal thinking only (i.e. thinking critically about the Bible, historical context, and current scientific KNOWLEDGE.)
DP, I have said countless times before, no, I have never been molested or abused in any way, shape or form, and the assertion that I may have been is pretty offensive.
rusty,
"No. My God, allows same-sex marriage, and he helps me to achieve the most from my life..."
Yes, your god (lower case) does allow same-sex marriages. He also allows for divorce, adultery, fornication, murder, lying, stealing, etc, etc.
But the One true God, Y'wh, Jehovah, Jesus Christ, the beginning and the end...He does not endorse sin. And those who willingly, and unrepentantly, practice sin will not inherit the Kingdom of God.
DelightntheLord
From what I can gather, your assumption is that God will smite (or similar) the United States if equal marriage rights are extended to same-sex couples.
Please explain then, why in countries where same-sex marriage has been available (e.g. Canada) for some time, that there are no signs of Gods wrath against these nations?
Consider this. I was raised in a devout Christian family, with loving parents, who taught me Gods word, as they understood it, including that marriage was sacred and that homosexuality was a sin. Despite this, by age 11 I developed a then unwanted attraction towards people of the same sex. For the next 15 years, I hated myself because no matter how hard I prayed, or how hard I tried, I could not change these feelings. I felt worthless, constantly guilty, unworthy, and did not understand why God would not help me. And no, I never broke Gods word relating to chastity.
At age 27, I was introduced to a Church that accepted homosexuality and tried its hardest to bring happiness to their lives within that framework. The church focuses on the good that can come from homosexual relationships (and yes there are goods), including a stable and loving environment.
I have since formed a relationship and foster children whose parents are going through difficulties. I accept that I will never be able to have children of my own, but that does not mean that I cannot provide a loving and nurturing environment for children whose parents are unable to care for them.
Also consider my alternatives. 1) I could have married and had children of my own. I would never have been able to fully love my wife because my attractions would have been elsewhere. Surely that is completely unfair not just to me but also to the lady that I would have married. 2) I could have stayed single for the rest of my life and missed the benefits and growth that comes from being in a loving relationship, and lost the ability to provide a loving home for children in need.
No. My God, allows same-sex marriage, and he helps me to achieve the most from my life, within my own constraints. He allows me to have a loving relationship and to help children in need. He does not make me feel worthless or guilty or unworthy and He certainly doesn’t threaten to destroy me because I am homosexual.
Oh dear, my posts aren't working.
DelightntheLord
From what I can gather, your assumption is that God will smite (or similar) the United States if equal marriage rights are extended to same-sex couples.
Please explain then, why in countries where same-sex marriage has been available (e.g. Canada) for some time, that there are no signs of God’s wrath against these nations?
Consider this: I was raised in a devout Christian family, with loving parents, who taught me God’s word, as they understood it, including that marriage was sacred and that homosexuality was a sin. Despite this, by age 11 I developed a then unwanted attraction towards people of the same sex. For the next 15 years, I hated myself because no matter how hard I prayed, or how hard I tried, I could not change these feelings. I felt worthless, constantly guilty, unworthy, and did not understand why God would not help me (and no, I never broke God’s word relating to chastity).
At age 27, I was introduced to a Church that accepted homosexuality and tried its hardest to bring happiness to their lives within that framework. The church focuses on the good that can come from homosexual relationships (and yes there are goods), including a stable and loving environment.
I have since formed a relationship and foster children whose parents are going through difficulties. I accept that I will never be able to have children of my own, but that does not mean that I cannot provide a loving and nurturing environment for children whose parents are unable to care for them.
Also consider my alternatives. 1) I could have married and had children of my own. I would never have been able to fully love my wife because my attractions would have been elsewhere. Surely that is completely unfair not just to me but also to the lady that I would have married. 2) I could have stayed single for the rest of my life and missed the benefits and growth that comes from being in a loving relationship, and lost the ability to provide a loving home for children in need.
No. My God, allows same-sex marriage, and he helps me to achieve the most from my life, within my own constraints. He allows me to have a loving relationship and to help children in need. He does not make me feel worthless or guilty or unworthy and He certainly doesn’t threaten to destroy me because I am homosexual.
rusty,
God will what?
Daniel Paul,
I don't know if it's more frustrating, or humorous, that he does that. I bring up incest marriages (which any intelligent person will understand that is refering to adults), Mike gets all worked up about child molestation. And I never said a word about children.
"Out of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks...."
DelightntheLord
From what I can gather, your assumption is that God will “smite†(or similar) the United States if equal marriage rights are extended to same-sex couples.
Please explain then, why in countries where same-sex marriage has been available (e.g. Canada) for some time, that there are no signs of “God’s wrath†against these nations?
Consider this. I was raised in a devout Christian family, with loving parents, who taught me God’s word, as they understood it, including that marriage was sacred and that homosexuality was a sin. Despite this, by age 11 I developed a then unwanted attraction towards people of the same sex. For the next 15 years, I hated myself because no matter how hard I prayed, or how hard I tried, I could not change these feelings. I felt worthless, constantly guilty, unworthy, and did not understand why God would not help me (and no, I never broke God’s word relating to chastity).
At age 27, I was introduced to a Church that accepted homosexuality and tried its hardest to bring happiness to their lives within that framework. The church focuses on the good that can come from homosexual relationships (and yes there are goods), including a stable and loving environment.
I have since formed a relationship and foster children whose parents are going through difficulties. I accept that I will never be able to have children of my own, but that does not mean that I cannot provide a loving and nurturing environment for children whose parents are unable to care for them.
Also consider my alternatives. 1) I could have married and had children of my own. I would never have been able to fully love my wife because my attractions would have been elsewhere. Surely that is completely unfair not just to me but also to the lady that I would have married. 2) I could have stayed single for the rest of my life and missed the benefits and growth that comes from being in a loving relationship, and lost the ability to provide a loving home for children in need.
No. My God, allows same-sex marriage, and he helps me to achieve the most from my life, within my own constraints. He allows me to have a loving relationship and to help children in need. He does not make me feel worthless or guilty or unworthy, and He certainly doesn’t threaten to destroy me because I am homosexual.
believer,
you assume that the definition of marriage has always been the same. Simply look up the definition of marriage in wikipedia and you will see that it has constantly changed over time.
However, in answer to your question, I think that the definition of marriage as upheld by the State should be "the union of two consenting adults (humans)" or similar. I also think that it should be available to each and every religion to apply their own additions to that definition such as "between a man and woman only", or "for time and all eternity" as the mormons do.
"Mike,
And, again (like countless times before), your twisted mind automatically goes to adults and kids. Why?"
Perhaps transparency provides an answer here, no? Anything ever happen to you?
Mike;
"current science"
Are you basing your beliefs on ever-changing current science?
Sorry, we as Christians don't bow to that god...only to the never-changing Word of God.
You are in the wrong forum for posting your non-sense. you are working very hard to justify your shame here, we are just not buying it....we indulge you but you cannot sway our solid foundation of truth by your 'common sense' reasoning nor by your 'current science'.
Mike,
And, again (like countless times before), your twisted mind automatically goes to adults and kids. Why? Why is it everytime I bring up incest marriages you bring up child molestation? And you say you're mind isn't in the gutter.
Mike,
I'm sorry that the truth hurts. But it's still true. And in the past you have said that your opposition against incest marriages was merely from a genetic point of view. It's good to see the truth comes out, that it's not about genetics...it's that you think they are disgusting.
DP and Delight, your posts with regards to the "new" definition of marriage are all to true!
Prophet, it is not hypocritical just because YOU lump everyone different from yourself into the same category. Groups like NAMBLA make me sick, and that is not hypocritical. Common sense dictates the difference between 2 people in love and an adult going after a child for sexual gratification. If you can't separate those two then I question your morals. Gay marriage will not open the floodgates of hell. It will not destroy all morals or make people start to question whether its ok for people to marry their animals. People have requested those before and been turned down. The only reason gays are making progress is because people realize we are not the demons you make us out to be, and current science (despite your disapproval) is showing that there is no choice in the matter of sexual orientation.
Daniel.
LOL. Ain't that the truth. It sounds like America is getting a little too much like Sodom and Gomorrah.
"what will the new definition of marriage "
It will be 'whatever, whenever, however as long as we both (all three, four, five, ...) shall dig it'....
This, of course, defiles the marriage bed. I heard someone recently say that if God does not deal with Americas immorality He may have to appologize to Sadom and Gomorrah.
feet,
And if you think that the redefinition of marriage will end with homosexuals, you've got your head in the sand. And if you choose to oppose those who come after you to declare their right, then you have just become a hypocrite.
anybody is entitled to belief anything without recrimination. that belief ends when it infringes on another or violates our rule of law..............such as seperation of church and state, or the govt mandating the beliefs of any religion.
"new definition of marriage?"
Believer, I've seen you ask this question on every thread of the forum on homosexual news in CP and yet, it remains unanswered. All those pro-deviate sex proponents cannot even consider giving you an answer...because they don't know.
Much like the majority of Obama voters they know nothing of the issues, consequences or even care to consider the truth. They only want "change-n-hope" or "gay marriage"; slogans and banners are all they know.
Not given a thought; what change? what hope? or how will we define the meaning of marriage and what it's function will be?
The last generations of shallow thinkers produced by the Government run School System where ideas are spoon fed and kids are empty sponges. Lost are the days when we actually thought out the consequences of what we believe to be true; the gift of Critical Thinking has been shoved in the closet and labeled "Intolerance". Just Believe!
Yes, I see the concerted effort of those (powers and principalities) who want to break down the strength of this nation through breaking down our definitions (beliefs) of what family and true marriage as is intended by our obvious design. our Public schools have prepared our children to be good Global Citizens not strong Americans and thus we move into a Brave New World.
Those in power with voice (media) have a great banner that is leading the sheep right off the cliff and they've been busy doing just that for the last 100 years in this country and yes, we are hitting Critical Mass...but we as Christians must fight back the darkness that will overtake our civilization because we are called to love those in the world, just as God loves the world.
It may seem intolerant to be forward thinking in this way but true love warns and is not the warm-fuzzy kind of love the world wants to experience. I pray we as Christians will continue to love through the persecution that has surely come and stand blameless before our Creator in the last day.
rusty,
"Seedplanter - truthfully, what makes you think that anyone would ever propose an amendment to allow beastiality? Surely your fear is unfounded."
Funny. That's the exact same thing they said about homosexuality 20 years ago. Interesting.
So, Rusty, the litmus test for you in passing a civil right for same sex marriage is YOUR idea of 'love"?
Well, so sorry, I don't give a rat's patootie about your same sex love. Certainly not enough to change the definition and function of what marriage has always been in this country.
I don't want our children taught in tax payer funded schools that this "love" is equal to marriage and pass off to generations an idea that same sex is equal to traditional marriage or even considered a legitimate form of love because it's not; it produces nothing! It produces nothing good for society as a whole and further erodes the sanctity of marriage and family; we do not need this. It is not in the best interest of society as a whole to grant some 'right to marriage' to such a small percentage of the populace. Especially in an era where we are struggling to preserve some moral equilibrium so that we might prosper as a country.
There is also that pesky little consequence of God's judgment over this nation, whether you believe that scenario or not. The prosperity of this nation has always been attributed to the fact this nation was founded on godly principals. We will not prosper as a nation once we completely turn our backs on God and embrace what He has said is an 'abomination'.
Against the backdrop of moral decay, financial ruin, destructive weather and wars we are seeing this radical group of deviates fighting for some personal cultural right that the majority has voted down several times. This is more than a 'right to marriage'; it is an all out, last days move by Satan to destroy what God has created. Your 'love' is a mere pittance compared to the big picture; and is unworthy of consideration.
gs, if same-sex marriage becomes the law of the land then what will the new definition of marriage be or can there even be one?
Seedplanter - truthfully, what makes you think that anyone would ever propose an amendment to allow beastiality? Surely your fear is unfounded.
DelightntheLord - I doubt that the purpose of the gay community in pursuing equal rights is to undermine society. From what I can tell, they just want to share the same rights as other consenting, adult couples. From a legalistic perspective that sounds fair to me, and I can't see why one persons morals should deny a loving couple the same rights afforded by the State to other loving couples through marriage.
I dont think the issue is with the Mormon church (or any religious organization for that matter) being involved in politic process, but with the Mormon church not fully disclosing its involvementin in the political process as required by law.
It must be appreciated that there are laws to prevent the misuse and abuse of the political process. Had members of the equal/gay rights community abused these same rule then it would be appropriate for the FPPC to investigate them as well.
If a provision was on the ballot that would allow beastiality, would The California Fair Political Practices Commission nail churches o the cross over that one as well???
Whatever happened to the seperation of church and state? Churches are suppose to be protected from this kind of abuse of government power. We might as well flush the whole bill of rights down the tiolet.
If they are going to ban religious people from the political process then they should also ban non-religious people as well.
Hey artm you said;
"They can pass all the laws they want in this country that will allow the perversion of homosexuality, But one day, Corrupr judges, corrupt lawers, and corrupt Politions, and everyone who found pleasure in helping this perversion to avail, will stand before God and give account."
was right on! There will be some who will not repent of their ways because they feel like they created themselves and hate God for their problems of their lifestyle. We just have to thank God the we are counted worthy we Jesus Christ comes for His church.
I think that the secular world is viewing our disdain of immorality and the right to vote on it as the church and not as single God believing voters. Yes we believe the Word of God is truth and a light; but the light scatters roaches and everything foul and hidden. The worrisome thing is the these vile people can threaten people with moral beliefs and get heard yet the Klan can do the same harrasment and it be a violation of peoples rights. These people, gays/lesbiens/transvestites/bi's, are trying to make an issue that it constitutes their civil rights which was only brought to law for minorities. Their lifestyle is a choice, 1 Cor 6:11, and not a civil right. So again this issue should not be brought back to court on the basis of threats and harassments of the immorals but it should stand because the people who happen to go to church and those that don't thought it to be wrong and humanly degrading.
Woa, rolln4him...32 thumbs down? Geez. Someone is not happy with your post...over and over and over... :D
I'm not saying they should be limited. I think it's good for churches to get involved in moral issues. I thought, however, that tax-exempt organizations were not allowed to have an active roll in politics? I could be wrong on this tho.
strudels, tax exemption or not why should they be limited with regards to support of an issue as opposed to the support of a candidate. It seems to me there is a big difference between support of issues as opposed to support of candidates.
If they take away the tax-exempt status of the mormon church, then the mormon church can get involved in any political issue they want...and I am pretty sure they won't take a liberal standpoint, lol. I don't think the CFPPC is thinking this through...
Let the heathen rage. We used the same political process they used. The arguement shouldn't be against the LDS, it should be against everyone who voted in favor of prop 8. But I guess they need a scapegoat to focus their immaturish anger on.
It seems this whole 'right' to same-sex marriage fiasco is just a thinly disguised effort to redefine what constitutes a family. Once the family has been redefined to an all inclusive combination or a group of people, then the function of a family becomes meaningless. Without the function of a family then the whole structure of society crumbles.
It's nothing new that there are factions, powers and principalities that seek to undermine this nation's stability. Terror from the outside and anarchy from within erodes our sense of equilibrium as a civilized society and leaves us all,as a people, vulnerable to destruction as divided we fall.
If we lose the moorings that are foundational for the existence of our society and devalue the family structure; calling evil good and good evil; we are doomed. What possible benefit for society overall for 'same-sex marriage' but only to appease a very vocal, small but influential group of people; handing over the power of defining for all of us what society has always determined a family to be and it's function and worth.
The rights of the individual should never extend beyond the rights of the many and end far before it has the potential of breaking down not only our traditional family values but casting us as a nation away from the devine Protection of a loving but just God to appease the few over some dubious civil right. It should matter to all of us that we keep standing for those things that have kept this nation strong; the family. We need structured procreation in the design for which it was created and intended to thrive and grow as a nation or we shrink and die.
We, as a nation need to celebrate the family; the meaningful exclusivity of it and grant it honor as a high ideal as we bring forth progeny to perpetuate and sustain a civil society. As it is now, with this nation's declining birthrate, we are hard-pressed to see generational prosperity once we trend away from procreation and the traditional family and embrace a deviant, counterfeit 'family' that has no benefit or function for this society as a whole.
The gay community should be ashamed of themselves. They preach against hate, yet they are spewing hate like there's no tomorrow. Hypocrisy! Though I feel Mormons are a cult, we as a religious base should stand by them to repel the demons of the gay community.
"suspicious of the speed at which the FPPC has agreed"
The other side of the issue would be they are going to look at it and say...nope, didn't do anything wrong. This will just clear the air and leave the prohomosexual hate mongers with one less bat to beat the civil rights out of religious people.
The fact that someone sent white powder through the mail would be presented as an act of terrorism and a hate crime if a pro-gay organization had been the recipient. Yet the media with its blatant double standard does not label it as such. Gay organizations have protested the election results as a discriminatory act against a minority, yet they lash out in the exact manner they have been alleging. They have targeted almost everything surrounding Mormons (their church, their businesses, their state, and their tax status) with the speed and political savvy of a well oiled political machine.
I am somewhat suspicious of the speed at which the FPPC has agreed to launched its investigation.
If the Mormons who gave their time and money to the cause did so as individuals and not through the church then the church is not responsible for the independent actions of it's members. This is nothing but harrassment of a religious group. It is hate by the Californians Against Hate. It's nothing more than militant gays trying to take away our civil rights. It is OUR rights as religious people that are being attacked here by the hate mongers in the prohomosexual community.
The news is full of stories of religious prosecution in Iraq, India, Indonesia, China, etc. Folks, don't think it can't happen here in the United States.
I don't agree with Mormonism but the Mormons have a right to practice their religion in peace, just as Hindus, Moslems and Budhists. That is a basic right of all Americans and it must be defended, no matter who the target.
If the homosexual lobby and their allies in the media and government succeed in beating the Mormons into submission, they won't stop there. All Christians must stand up now and defend religious liberty before it's too late.
Remember the poem by Pastor Martin Niemoeller: ". . . And then they came for the Jews, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Jew;
And then . . . they came for me . . . And by that time there was no one left to speak up."
You can beat around the bush all you want. You can be as nice as apple pie. You can assure homosexuals that you love them until the cows come home.
But the fact of the matter is, many homosexuals do not want to change their lifestyle.
The truth of that fact is then, That they will go to hell. God says they will. The Bible says they will, and there is nothing anyone can do about it.
They can pass all the laws they want in this country that will allow the perversion of homosexuality, But one day, Corrupr judges, corrupt lawers, and corrupt Politions, and everyone who found pleasure in helping this perversion to avail, will stand before God and give account.