OLYMPIA, Wash. — An atheist group has unveiled an anti-religion placard in the state Capitol, joining a Christian Nativity scene and "holiday tree" on display during December.
The atheists' sign was installed Monday by Washington members of the Freedom From Religion Foundation, a national group based in Madison, Wis.
With a nod to the winter solstice - the year's shortest day, occurring in late December - the placard reads, in part, "There is only our natural world. Religion is but myth and superstition that hardens hearts and enslaves minds."
The foundation's co-president, Dan Barker, said it was important for atheists to offer their viewpoint alongside the overtly religious Nativity scene and Christmas-style holiday tree.
"Our members want equal time," Barker said. "Not to muscle, not to coerce, but just to have a place at the table."
The three displays, all privately sponsored, were granted permits from state groundskeepers to be placed in the Capitol's grand marble hallways.
The 25-foot noble spruce, officially called the "Capitol Holiday Kids Tree," is sponsored by the Association of Washington Business and tied to a charity drive for needy families. It's been a Capitol fixture for nearly 20 years.
Although nominally secular, the tree is clearly recognizable as a sign of Christmas: It's strung with lights, topped by a large golden star and usually surrounded by faux wrapped presents.
In 2006, a Jewish group sponsored a Capitol menorah, the candelabrum that marks Hanukkah. That prompted local real estate agent Ron Wesselius to propose a Capitol nativity scene depicting the birth of Christ.
The request was turned down, with state lawyers saying they didn't have enough time to wade through issues of government religious endorsement. Wesselius sued; his Nativity scene was installed in 2007 and again this year. No menorah is on display in 2008.
On Monday, the Nativity scene and atheist sign were installed alongside each other in a hallway between the state Senate and House chambers, separated by a large bust of the state's namesake, George Washington.
Asked whether he was bothered by the atheist display next to his Nativity scene, Wesselius said, "I think the Nativity scene will speak for itself."
But he added, "I appreciate freedom of speech and freedom of access. That's why they're in there, and hey - you know, that's great."
For now, the atheist sign is a stand-in. The metal plaque meant for display was delayed by a shipping error, Barker said.
It will be two-sided, with a lengthy message on the main side, and "Keep State/Church Separate" on the back. Barker said that step is necessary because critics have sometimes spun around the group's other statehouse display, in Wisconsin, in hopes of hiding its message.
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msn,
Wow, you sound irritated my friend . . . you said, (you contradict yourself so much . . .)
It would be beneficial for everyone here if you can be a bit more specific; can you give an example?
By the way, you have yet to respond to my critiques of the Catholic Church . . . it has been nearly a month since we last chatted on the article: Second Episcopal Diocese Breaks from National Church; and I am still waiting for a response there.
speaking of snipets. it seems that catholics don't even read the bible. most of the things they teach aren't even in the bible and go against the scriptures. if catholics actually studied the bible they would realize that much of catholicism is waaaaaaaay off base.
Online,
When you've chosen to finally read all of Scripture instead of just a few snipets, let me know. Until then just realize that your remarks reek of someone who has never read all of the Bible. You contradict yourself so much, it is like listening to John Kerry on the Senate floor. If when your writing you critiques of the Catholic Church, just listen because you probably will hear me laughing all the way from the West coast at your attempt to use scripture. Reading many of your posts reminds me of when you ask some kids to do a book report, and the kids that only read parts of it try to write it and comes across as having a larger missing link than evolution.
Do some real homework, my stomach can't stand laughing so much. You would be hilarious at a party, I'm sure.
Thanks! I showed my wife and she said "that's disappointing!" She's become kind of fond of David Tenant. I understand Tenant is going to be around for a while yet.
Maybe we could get The Doctor to come fix this idiocy in WA state!
DP
Hot news about the Doctor Who Christmas special, the Doctor meets a future him, if you get my drift and he/they fight the Cyberman!! If this link works it's both of them together...BRILL. http://dailypop.files.wordpress.com/2008/04/drwhoxmas.jpg
The government needs to ban that sign anyway, under the hate law. That just has hate written all over it. And if the government is going to ban a Christian ad condemning homosexuality, then they need to ban the sign that condemns Christianity.
"and later found in a ditch."
Fox News reported that it was found outside a country music radio station who called the police. Bill O. sure has some interesting ...words... ... about the Governor of WA!
Sounds like some insecure Christians at work there...
Recent news item: (CNN) -- An atheist sign criticizing Christianity that was erected alongside a Nativity scene was taken from the Legislative Building in Olympia, Washington, on Friday and later found in a ditch.
(Just for fun, please show me any place in the Bible where it says that you must go by Scripture ALONE)
The Word of God is the only authority for the Christian faith. Traditions are valid only when they are based on Scripture and are in full agreement with Scripture. Traditions that contradict the Bible are not of God and are not a valid aspect of the Christian faith. Sola scriptura is the only way to avoid subjectivity and personal opinion from taking priority over the teachings of the Bible. The essence of sola scriptura is basing your spiritual life on the Bible alone, and rejecting any tradition or teaching that is not in full agreement with the Bible. Second Timothy 2:15 declares, (Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth).
Where do we see Tradition authoritatively quoted in Scripture . . . Jesus also says that the Scriptures cannot be broken . . . where do we hear Jesus elevating Tradition in the same manner?
(. . . or that we are saved by FAITH Alone? You won't.)
But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness WITHOUT WORKS,
Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered (Romans 4:5-7).
(We clearly see in the Bible nothing can be contrary to it . . .)
There have been many posts where your tradition has been exposed to be unbiblical and still you cling to your tradition despite the evidence . . . consider the words of Jesus:
And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition (Mark 7:9).
chris, throughout the history of the Church there was always a remnant of true believers who did and continue to do there best to stay true to the Word of God and the catholic church ain't them but there are catholics who are a part of that church as well. Plus show me scripture that forbids a group of believers from starting their own church. Cornelius did and he was not of the apostolic order that you as opposed to the Bible refers to.
chris, how about Ephesians 2:8-10 as I stated already, by grace alone, through faith alone, because of Christ alone does a person become a child of God!
At one time, maybe even now...
A history of Auricular Confession and Indulgences in The Latin Church Vol. 3 By Henry Charles LEA, LL.D:
"There is a trifling indulgence for little images of St. Peter, which are an exception to the general rule in that they require to be blessed by the pope himself. In 1857 Pius IX. granted fifty days for kissing the feet of the bronze statue of St. Peter in the Vatican basilica, and in 1877 he extended this to small images of it, good both for the possessors and their families. Limited as is the indulgence, being toties quoties, and the work to acquire it infinitesimal, it could be multiplied indefinitely, until, in 1880, Leo XIII. limited it to one in each day." [end quote]
What spirit do you think was behind such a thing? It was definitely not the Holy Spirit. Let us take heed, "There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death" (Pr 14:12).
I could never be 100% Catholic. I couldn't be 100% pentacost, or baptist, or presbyterian. But I am 100% part of the Church. I am part of the Body of Christ, and the Bride of Christ.
msnchris,
Show me scripture to support confession to priests and their ability to forgive sins.
Show me scripture to support the perpetual virginity of Mary.
Show me scripture to support that Mary was sinless.
By the way, the Catholics are merely another division among the many denominations. The true Church bears no name other than Jesus Christ. I hope you won't be too upset when you discover that there are baptists and pentacosts in this Church. And I hope you won't be too disappointed when many Catholics that you may have looked up to, aren't.
chris,
I have looked at your sites and I disagree that the Apostles teaching infant baptism is fact. In fact, I do not believe we have the authority to add to God's Word the teaching of infant baptism. The Bible clearly teachig that salvation comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God as well as the conviction that one is a sinner in need of a Savoir.
Muggleborn,
I am aware that there are Catholic who don't believe everything, but they are not 100% catholic because our church says they are not.
They are still Christian, but as Paul says we must be of one mind, one faith, one baptism one Lord.
Protestantism ecourages disunity, Catholicims encourages unity of faith.
Forgivensinner,
If you truly seek Truth you will go to those websites.
Believer,
Just for fun, please show me any place in the Bible where it says that you must go by Scripture ALONE, or that we are saved by FAith Alone? You won't.
Also, could you show me in Scripture where you have the right to start your own church outside of the Apostolic Church founded by Christ?
msnchris,
>> where the person sitting next to you in church may disagree with the teachings of their church but they still attend, we Catholics are not like that. <<
chris, I know tons of fellow Catholics who don't believe in various aspects of RCC doctrines and still attend. I've heard some priests say rather questionable things, and some bishops say questionable things. Some official doctrine has only been validated in the last couple hundred years, i.e. the bodily assumption of Mary?
I also now see how most Catholic priests are JUST as afraid to speak out on abortion or homosexuality for fear of losing their congregation, just like in many Protestant churches.
Forgivensinner,
You will find in those websites scripture passages that point to infant baptism.
It is not explicit since the children who were baptised we don't know if they were one years old, two, more or less. What we do know for a fact, that infant baptism was 100% accepted as Apostolic teaching and never being question even by the Reformers.
Jesus, as the bible says, did and said many things that are not contained in the Bible. The Apostles through Sacred Tradition passed down the teachings of Christ.
Unlike Protestants who are limited to only the written Word of God, we Catholics have the written Word of God, we have the Oral Word of God safeguarded through Christian Tradition, and we have the Teaching Authority of the Church given to us by Christ.
The Word of God is Oral, it is written and it is EATEN in the Eucharist. All of these come from the same source...GOD. This is why Protestantism is limited, and why there is such a wide array of diversity of belief.
We clearly see in the Bible nothing can be contray to it, we clearly see that Oral Word of God passed in Tradition was given the same weight as the written Word of God. We see clearly that no Tradition can be contrary to the Word of God and we also see the Bible is clear that Jesus left us a Church who had HIS AUTHORITY over the people of God.
This authority is still with the Catholic Church. No authority, no wonder there is such disagreement within Protestantism.
Here is something fun for you, go ask a Presbyterian a Lutheran a Anglican a Methodist or a Reformed Minister and have them tell you why Baptism of infants is biblical?
Doesn't it ever hit you, which seems obvious to me, that the newer the Christian sect the less they believe than the previous denomination that they left? With each year Protestantism is being watered down and becoming more and more irrelevant, while the Catholic Church stands firm in her beliefs.
When your beliefs were handed to you by God through the Apostles, there is no prophesy of scripture that is up to personal interpretation. But when your belief has been handed down to you from some man who started his own church and has no connection to the Apostles, then you can think what you want since this man has no God given authority. God's authority is only handed down through apostolic succession like the bible clearly shows in electing Mathias and how they laid hands on the early leaders of the Church to carry on.
chris, the Bible does not teach the perpetual virginity of Mary and in fact it states just the opposite and please sight where believers are told to go to a specific person to confess their sins since the closest you can come is I believe in James were encouraged to confess our sins to one another, but not to a specific person, plus other than maybe catholic versions their is no reputable translation of the Bible that even recognizes the office of priest in the Church.
believer, I also find it interesting that this is another area where silence is claimed.
believer, yes, I am aware of this argument.
Prophet,
I appreciate your thoughts. Excommunication is not a very common thing. There are probably less than 20 people who have been excommuncated in the last 100 years.
If you don't believe in the perpetual virginity of Mary, which the early church professed or confessing your sins to a Priest or bishop which is in the Bible and has been done since the very beginning of the church. We see clearly that Bishops and Priests have the power by Christ to forgive sins or retain sins and if you are sick you can go to a priest and he will anoint you with oil and and he will pray over you and any of your sins will be forgiven. No where in scripture does it say you have to believe in the Trinity to be Christian, but to be Christian you must believe in the Trinity. Do you get my point?
If you don't believe the teachings of the Catholic Church, then leave. Unlike Protestants who have more of an ala carte system and cater to believers who disagree on the most basic of Christian doctrines, where the person sitting next to you in church may disagree with the teachings of their church but they still attend, we Catholics are not like that.
You must believe 100% of what the Church teaches, because our Church was founded by God on the apostles. Our teachings are apostolic, which were handed down to them from Jesus himself and through the Holy Spirit. Our Church was promised by the Holy Spirit to be led into all truth, so if you disagree with our INfallible teachings then you can leave. We won't change and we will stand of the firm ground we were placed by Christ.
Since no protestant church will declare that their teachings are infallible, then everyone is open for their own interpretation creating a non-biblical situation of everyone being their own Pope.
There is no unity of faith in Protestantism, other than the one thing we can all agree on that Jesus is the only way and that He is our savior.
forgiven, you won't cause it ain't there, but what they'll try and say is when the Philippian jailer's family received Christ and were baptized chances are some of them were little children if not infants.
chris, but I bet none of those sites can show any teachings from Christ or in the New Testament to support infant baptism other than taking the story of the Philippian jailer's family totally out of context?
chris,
You are directing me to a catholic site, where will I find the teaching of infant baptism in the NT scriptures?
muggle, your view of works is exactly what I too was led to believe while a catholic and yes John the Baptist did rebuke the Jewish religious leaders and people about that very thing, doing works which look good but hide the real condition of their hearts from others but not from God who knows their heart.
Works are a result of salvation, not a cause.
Works merely dictate our reward in heaven, not our acceptance to heaven.
Works in order to secure salvation, is work devoid of love, and is worthless.
Forgivensinner,
For information on Baptism of infants and the constant 2000 years of this Apostolic teaching go to:
http://www.catholic.com/library/Infant_Baptism.asp
http://www.catholic.com/library/Early_Teachings_of_Infant_Baptism.asp
http://www.catholic.com/library/sacraments.asp
If you really want to know, this should answer your question.
msnchris,
I would be labeled a protestant, and I call Mary blessed. I just don't idolize her (which is a sin) like the Catholics do.
"If you will confees with your mouth the Lord Jesus, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead you will be saved. For with the heart a man believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth the confession is made unto salvation."
That's the only works required.
You said "Much like how Praise and worship music is a Protestant ritual found nowhere in the bible, altar calls, and many more items these are all still good things if they get you closer to Christ. Tradition, ceremonies and rituals can be good or bad irregardless of Church or place"
The difference is that what the Catholics do, they teach as doctrine. Altar calls, the music we play, etc etc, are not taught as doctrine. They vary greatly from church to church on how they approach it. Same with Sunday School. Therein lies the anti-scriptural teachings of the RCC. If a protestant says that he doesn't agree with the way the altar call is done, he is still accepted, he is not excommunicated or anything else. If a Catholic says that they do not believe in the perpetual virginity of Mary, or the confession of sins to priests, they are looked down upon and thought of as apostate. I use those two examples because I have a friend who was Catholic, who expressed his concern with those two ideologies, and was all but excommunicated.
Muggleborn,
There are always weeds within the Roses. Amen to that!
Going to confession, praying, reading the Bible, doing devotionals, saying the Rosary all bring God's Grace into your life in abundance are good works showing how we cooperate with God's grace.
Our works or actions are either cooperating with God's saving Grace or they are against it. Our works either reveal our faith or show a lack of it. Our works manifests the depth of our faith, or the shallowness of it.
Mt. 7:21 not Lord, Lord, but he who does the will of the Father. Mt. 19:16-17 to have life keep the commandments, Rom 2:2-8 eternal life by perserverance in Good works. Gal 5:4-6 Nothing counts but faith working through Love.,
Eph 2:8-10 we are created in Christ Jesus for good works, Phil 2:12-13 work out your salvation with fear and trembling, James 2:14-24 A man is justified by works & not by faith alone.
There are many more on how we are judged for what we do, either good or bad. These scripture verses do not imply we do it on our own, but rather how we can cooperate with God's Grace and do the works God has built up into us by His Grace.
msnchris,
I agree about saying some prayer and being saved being very misleading ... in fact, it would ironically be regarded as a "work" in that sense. Evangelical pastors have rebuked others for this. Every church has its issues. Believer, back me up on that? Isn't that sort of thing exactly what John the Baptist spoke of to the Pharisees when they asked "What must they do" to receive salvation?
You must receive the Eucharist, make Confession (and penance i.e. something to make up for my sins), attend Mass on holy days of "Obligation" ... obligation? Isn't that what we're trying to avoid by letting our works be a reflection of out love for God?
Chris, I'm still giving this a chance ... it's the subtleties I'm concerned with. I understand that the RCC is constantly bombarded and infiltrated by demonic ideologies and sinful opportunists, i.e. the priest I spoke of, earlier. I want to keep the dialog open.
chris,
What scriptures in the NT teach infant baptism?
chris, plus you know I am by no means a proponent of cheap grace theology as you advocated in your last post to me and you also know that of a majority of posters on these sights.
chris, but I'm glad you're affirming what I was taught in catholic school, seminary, and at my catholic church as well.
chris, so what you're saying is that the catholic church does not teach a works salvation but they teach if you don't do works you'll lose your salvation, sure sounds like works salvation to me or are you saying that Christ alone is sufficient to save us but not keep us? So then what do you do with Ephesians 2:8-10?
IHS,
WELCOME HOME BROTHER IN CHRIST! WOW, A Priest! This is a huge step and I will pray for you. There will be many people like Beleiver who will offer pedantic remarks, but you are on the right track.
If you think you loved Jesus as a Protestant, just wait till you take the Eucharist for the first time and His Holy Blood. You will have a new life in you, and that new life is CHRIST!
Praise be to Jesus Christ! Don't forget to email me if you have anymore questions. msnchris70@hotmail.com
GOD BLESS YOU, the angels in heaven are singing songs of praise to God!
Forgivensinner,
All our rituals and ceremonies have been developed over time through Apostolic Tradition. All our rituals adore God. All our cultural aspects help you focus on your faith, hope and love for God.
Much like how Praise and worship music is a Protestant ritual found nowhere in the bible, altar calls, and many more items these are all still good things if they get you closer to Christ. Tradition, ceremonies and rituals can be good or bad irregardless of Church or place, it all depends on the focus of it, right?
Also, we are historically and biblically the Church of Christ. If you will read any of the Church fathers, it will hit you like it did me as a Reformed Minister that they prayed and believed as Catholics do today. The Early church was not Protestant. It was Catholic.
The Early Christian Church baptized infants, knew the Eucharist was the true presence of Christ, had Bishops, Priests and Deacons as the Biblical hierarchy, prayed for the dead, prayed to the Saints in Heaven like the blessed Mother, Saint Peter and Saint Paul and other Saints they knew died for the faith, honored Mary and the Apostles, went to confession to a priest or Bishop in a group or private setting, said the Liturgy of the hours, blessed themselves, etc, etc. So, not only can we historically see a clear continuation of Bishops since Peter, but we have the same practices and beliefs.
There are many Protestant Pastors today who are coming Home to the Catholic Church because, with the Internet information such as the early church fathers being more easilly accessible, they can see it plain as day the early church was One, it was Holy, it was Catholic and it was Apostolic.
Believer,
You know we are not a works salvation religion, but if you need to think that to keep you in the Protestant ranks then so be it.
The theological reason why we say we were saved, are being saved and will be saved is quite simple. Yes, Jesus died once and for all. Basic seminary stuff here. The thing you so conveniently forget are all the many scripture verses that attest to salvation being an individual process and not a one time thing. We are saved by grace through faith working in love. By Grace God has built into us through faith works for us to cooperate with to make us ready for Heaven, so by responding and cooperating with God's Grace and saying "YES" to His will and not ours' we will be saved. Like any gift, we have the Free choice to reject it at any time.
Salvation is more than just saying the word "YES" to Jesus, it is living a life for Christ and cooperating with the mighty Grace which has been freely given to us. We cannot work our way to Heaven nor can we earn our way to Heaven. The works of the Old Law don't work anymore, since the new Gospel is Christ himself.
You must cooperate with God's grace. This doesn't mean you are perfect or not a sinner since as we all fall short, but your heart and mind must be leading you closer and closer to Jesus by our daily "Yes" to Christ revealed through our actions. Like Saint Paul we must perservere to the end in our faith and faith without works is an empty faith.
Faith is nothing, if it is not an active outgrowth of love.
I'm sorry but many Protestant Churches are leading many people to the Devil by telling them that once they are saved they are always saved and once you say the "JESUS" prayer which is no place found in the Bible that you can't be taken from Christ hands. This is manipulated and false scriptural understanding. An individual can reject God's grace at any time through living in an unrepentant state of Mortal sin. This once saved always saved fallacy tells people you can do whatever you want and their is no judgement on what you do since you said this "Jesus" prayer and were "Saved". This theology is unbiblical and unapostolic.
msnchris & IHS,
Thanks for your responses, and I do appreciate your inputs. I can definitely assure you that I am going beyond my due dilligence to resolve this struggle. In fact, I get the feeling that the struggle is probably where God wants me to be at this moment, if I understand anything about the doctrine of sovereignty ;^)
I'm familiar with Pelagius and the concept of asceticism. I'm not surprized that the RCC would have condemned it, but that was to extremes it uuuh ... seems (that rhymes!). BTW, where does the RCC say that original sin came from, now that we believe in evolution and E.T.? I know that comes across as acrimonious, but I felt the need to phrase it that way ... and I haven't had time to research it.
I've said probably a good couple hundred full rosaries in my lifetime. Always ask ... don't assert, but no harm done. I've done the Chaplet of Divine Mercy for 7 (or so) years with my mom, who tends to point me to the Catecism, whenever I have questions. I might argue about how Christ-centric the rosary really is, but I can assure you I still call Mary "The Blessed Mother". I'm sorry, though ... I'm at odds with her other title ... "Queen of Heaven".
I know there are disconnects and misunderstandings between the RCC and reformists et al, and that no particular "denomination" is 100% correct ... but that's kind of the problem. I continually find that I have to put my faith in Christ and Christ alone, and not in banner which waves in the name of Christ. Being alligned with a body of believers is fine, but I cannot rely on their organization to save me or condemn me. I've read James, and I'm "somewhat" prepared to discuss the "works" issue with you.
I'll have to save it for now, though. I'm sure we'll get a chance to cross-reference and compare.
I need to get some work done, so I'll leave with this for now:
You know the old philosipher's query "If God is all powerful, can He make a rock that even He can't move" (not an exact quote)? The answer is "Yes". It's metaphorical of course; that rock is His unbroken and eternal word, which does not change for the world's convenience, but will stand for His glory, forever.
God bless. We'll talk later.
chris, so then what did you mean by we are being saved, especially since Christ died once for sins so that we might be saved?
chris, if you don't believe works are a required part of salvation then why can a mortal sin not confessed to a priest send a person to hell?
ihs, you becoming a catholic, like none of us saw that coming!:)
chris, considering most catholics worship Mary more than Christ it's pretty obvious why many of the "saints" of the catholic church would have a high regard for her.
Muggleborn:
I commend you for seeking the Lord. I found Jesus years ago. My father was a preacher and my Grand daddy was a Preacher from a Baptist/non-denomination/Pentecostal background. Quite a mix, hey?
I am currently in Seminary and was hoping to become a Pastor of an evangelical Church. Over the last two years I have learned a lot about many Christian denominations, at seminary and on Christianpost. It has been a blessing.
I haven't been on Christianpost for awhile because of my studies and the fact that I have been discerning a call to convert to Catholicism and become a Priest. This will be big news to all of you and has been to my family as well, but there are so many reasons why I want to become Catholic and they are all bible based.
If after talking to Tallguy or MsnChris about the Catholic faith, I would be happy to share as well and will happilly give you my email if you are interested.
It sounds like you need to go to an RCIA class at your church for more basics on the faith.
My faith in the last two years has deepend and I am growing so close to Christ. The Catholic Church is where you can receive the true body of Christ every single day! It won't be just sourdough and grape juice symbolizing Jesus, it will be Jesus in His full divinity just like the Apostles always taught.
MsnChris and Tallguy have been instrumental and I praise God for Him bringing me more in communion with Him through His One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church! I can't wait to be Catholic!
Wow, chris.
Just becuase the Catholic church as a history that can be traced back to Peter founding the church of Christ at Rome does not mean it's the same church.
I am sorry, I do not mean to as blunt as you have been. It is simply that the organizational hierarchy is not that which is taught in the New testament at all. In fact, the catholic church with all it's rituals, ceremonies and offices does not look anything like "The New testament church".
I agree their are many churches that are made by men and do not conform to the image of Christ's Body. The Bible, the New Testament gives us that clear picture of what His Body, His church looks like. Anything else is not His church, not The church.
Mary is still the best example of a Christian. It is her "yes" to Christ and never forsaking Him that we must all follow.
All generations shall call her blessed, except for those Bible believing Protestants who so conveniently skip that passage. Any group of Christians who denigrate the Mother of God like some Protestants do, are no friend of Christ.
Believer,
Our Lady of Fatima has brought millions to a relationship with Christ in Portugal and other places. Our Lady of Guadalupe brought millions of people to faith in Christ in Mexico. Wherever Our Lady appears, she is always without question pointing people to her Son. She points all worship to her Son. People because they have come to a saving relationship with Christ honor Mary as their Mother and as the Mother of God.
These wonderful Christians honor Mary with their love, because it was Mary who brought them to a saving relationship with Christ. Honoring Mary takes nothing away from the King of Kings. The deeper you love Mary, the closer you will become to Christ her Son.
All the greatest Saints of the Church had a deep devotion to Mary, because as a loving Mother for all of us she brings us closer to Christ. Biblically and historically and traditionally, Mary always points to Christ.
Muggleborn,
You sound that you are genuinely seeking a deeper relationship with God, which I commend. You are searching more for Christ which is the best thing ever. The problem is you will never find Christ more fully in a Protestant church that denies so many Apostolic teachings, like Baptism, like the Eucharist being the True Presence of Christ, like the fact we are THE CHURCH instead of a Church, like the fact no where in the Bible does it say or allow starting your own church like the Protestants did, like the fact that Protestants have two key unbibilical doctrines that are completely unApostolic like; The Bible alone and by faith alone.
I know many Protestants who I revere and respect and know they are saved. I would say that there are some amazing Baptists and Pentecostals who I know who love the Lord and are great examples of Christians. The problem occurs when you realize there are 40,000 sects of different Protestant strands and none of them share the same faith.
Think about it for a minute, the Protestants love the Bible which was written and collated and canonized by the Catholic Church. The New Testament is a Catholic book. All the major tenets of the Christian faith were decided by Catholics.
The two largest doctrines of Protestants(Bible alone and faith alone) are not only not found in the Bible, but they are contrary to the Bible as a whole. Also, all the oldest Christian Churches; Catholics, Orthodox, Coptics, Armenian and Syrian all have the same seven sacraments and believe 98-99% of the same faith. Why? Well, because the Apostles founded all these churches. Protestantism is a tradition of Men, not of God. You can still be saved in a Protestant church, but the fullness of Christ revelation is only found in the Catholic Church. God founded the Church of Christ which is the Catholic Church, fact. We see it in the Bible and historically. Nothing preceded the Holy Catholic Church.
The good thing about your path is that you are truly seeking Jesus. The bad thing is you have not been properly taught the faith and that has created your current problems with theology. You owe it to your family to pursue the Catholic faith to its fullest and ask questions. I am here for you. Remember, I was a former Protestant Reformed Pastor who finally saw the light and came home to the True Church of Christ. Do your due dillegence.
Muggleborn,
You may want to pick up the Catechism of the Catholic Church. It is quite obvious that if you were raised Catholic, then no one explained the faith to you which is sad but it happens.
You can tell by your posts your general misunderstanding of the Catholic faith. If you are between 25-50 years old then I would not be surprised since our church has done a horrible job of discipling our flock since Vatican II.
We have never believed in a Works+Grace or that works get you into heaven. If you do some study you will find that not only do we reject the view that your works can save yourself, but that we have had numerous Popes and Bishops attack this Palagian and semi-Palagian view. If you don't know who Palagian is, then it would be useful to look him up.
By the way, the Rosary is a devotion and is not something you HAVE to do. Also, you probably never prayed it since if you did you would see the Rosary is Christcentric with all the Mysteries that describe Jesus life, death and resurrection.
If you really have genuine questions, then email me at msnchris70@hotmail.com.
I will give you the authentic Catholic teaching. Also, that Priest who was using a Unitarian poem or quote should have been thrown out!
Muggle,
Prayers ~ you got them. Sounds like you're actively moving toward a deeper relationship in Christ and being the Spiritual head for your family. Keep seeking Him.
It's rather intimidating to change churches. But, I can assure you that GOd will bless you for your efforts. As far as structure ~ it's in other churches as well. And it may take a little while to feel comfortable to get into ministries in another church, but the rewards of waiting will grow you and your family. There is nothing more fulfilling than to align yourself and your family with others that help you to grow even more closer to Christ.
Praying for you!
sane,
I agree to the point that they have a right to celebrate the winter solstice, and even the right to express their unbelief in God, but what does expressing your unbelief in God have to do with the winter solstice? Yes, I have a problem with this, not because I believe they do not have a right to celebrate WS or express unbelief. It is taking the winter solstice to create an avenue to express that unbelief. The winter solstice has nothing to do with unbelief. Christmas has everything to do with Christ.
Plus, why not stick with "there is no god"? Why imply religion (christianity) is harmful? Ahhh, anyway....
College, huh? During the college years, I questioned so much about my life, which brought me to God.
Thanks and God Bless, sane.
muggle, my mom is 100% Portugese and my grandmother was a super catholic and I say that respectfully and Our Lady of Fatima was a big part of her life, the problem I have is that it takes the focus of one's worship off of Christ and onto Mary and I know satan will do what ever he can to do make that happen, even if it means using counterfeit miracles such as this.
muggle, "Stephen King", God does work in mysterious ways, but who am I to say anything since He used Jethro Tull's "Aqualung" album to wake me up to some important truths of His.
Forgivensinner,
I've attended services from a couple different ones in my area; one non-denominational, one Baptist. There are plenty around. It's getting myself there that's the problem. I guess I'm somewhat wayward and need prayers.
My tendency is to still attend mass with my wife and son, so I can be at services with my family. My wife grew up nominally Catholic, but I got her more involved in a relationship with Jesus, and suggested we go to church. At the same time I was coming back to the Lord and simply doing that via the RCC because it's my heritage. As my relationship with God grew, I started noticing more and more what didn't make sense, and was gaining a better understanding of scripture through radio ministry, and fervent prayer.
My wife is apprehensive about finding a new church, because she feels safe with its structure, which I understand, but I'm weaning her away and trying to coach her more in following the Holy Spirit. She's coming around. She also thinks catholic mass is better structured for our son, who is 4. She's open to it, but she's ... "shy" ... about her faith.
Daily radio ministry (John MacArthur) is still my primary source of service worship. But I want to find a church where I can truly put my talents to use for God's glory, and worship in fellowship with my family.
I'll have to share my testimony with you some time. It's a long and boring one :^) I still credit Stephen King's 'Desperation' for spring-boarding me back into the faith (the book, not the sloppy made-for-tv movie).
believer,
I have other subjects I'd love to get perspective on; Fatima and Medjigorie seem to be very hard to reconcile as either hoaxes OR events that fall in line with the Gospel.
forgiven,
I am a christian first-off but since I have started attending college I have found myself questioning gods exsistance, but as of right now i am comfortable saying that I do in fact believe in God, but that isn't what I said or you said I just thought I should add that so you didn't think this was coming from an atheist trying to justify the act of putting the sign up.
but I do believe that they had every right to put up the sign, they have the same right to post their beliefs in public buildings as Christians. If people want it taken down, which I would be all for, they should take everything down and make the building free of religion like it is supposed to be.
muggle, I too was raised very catholic and I've known for a long time the catholic church promotes a works salvation, but chris and tallguy in the past have shared that the catholic church teaches that salvation comes through Christ alone and when others have challenged that we were severely rebuked by both of them. But I do appreciate all the information you shared on this matter that fully supports what I was taught while I was in the catholic church as well.
argyle,
God indeed loves you. This may very well show this group as grumpy, etc; the obvious truth to this stunt though had not a thing to do with a celebration of the winter solstice. I'm not happy about this stunt, but do agree it only makes them look foolish.
personally im more amused than offended by the sign. I look on one side theres a beautiful display of the nativity, then on the other a nice menora, and then theres just this sign with words by some grumpy person because everyone else is enjoying faith in something and having hollidays and the person fells lonly or depressed... I thought the athiests said to "enjoy" life without a god, but the sign just makes athiesm look like a sad, angry, stubbon, and unhappy belife system. Then again what do i know about true happiness, I just have a God who loves me....
Hi sane,
I do have a question, how is a place card denying the existence of God a symbol of the winter solstice? THe nativity scene is a symbol of Jesus's birth, you have the menorah as well, none of which has any words. I do not believe I would have such a problem if this groups was not using the winter solstice as a excuse to slap christians (and ultimately God) in the face that have a right to celebrate the birth of Christ. THey can, if they choose, celebrate the winter solstice, dress up, worship the sun and moon and put up sun and moon symbols, but this has nothing to do this celebrating the winter solstice.
oh and by the way, as to why they didn't put it in front of a Muslim place of worship. they didn't put it in front of a christian place of worship either they put it in a publicly owned building that is supposed to have no religous affiliation. Thats like asking why doesn't your preacher burst into the middle of Jewish mass and start preaching things of Jesus, the atheists did nothing wrong they didn't trespass, they are just letting their beliefs known just as the rest of us are doing with our trees.
I'm sorry did I miss the moment that we all stopped living in America? I seem to recall a document from about two hundred years ago that said something to the affect of that we have the right to freedom of religion. Now I am not atheist and I am a christian but they have every right to publish their beliefs in that building as any of us. There is nothing that says that they are wrong just because you don't agree with what the sign says. Just take it easy and be more accepting of others beliefs if you don't like move out of America , because that is what America stands for, I am sure that there is another country in the world that you can go live and be forced into believing the same thing as everyone else, oh wait that country is North Korea. Have fun and send me a post card.
Yeah, why don't atheists put their signs in front of Muslim places? Probably because they're not true atheists, willing to die for their cause.
the placard reads, in part, "There is only our natural world. Religion is but myth and superstition that hardens hearts and enslaves minds."
what if the atheist put the same placard 2 miles away at the 4th street Masjid Muhammad - wouldn't everyone opne their eyes and see how offensive and full of hate that placard reads?
Sorry, a previous post of mine erroneously said that 15 million people died at the hands of atheist in the past 100 years. I apologize for casting atheists in that kind of light.
The acutal number is closer to 150 million. My apologies.
Daniel Paul,
I was just there! Are you watching O'Reily?
just FYI, if you want to contact the Governors Office in WA state:
http://access.wa.gov/directorylisting/governor/g/contactdetails.aspx
MuggleBorn,
Have you found any other church that aligns more with the teachings of Christ yet? Is your wife willing? It seems your recognizing a need to be edified and built up in Christ elsewhere.
Last year sometime, a guest priest presided over Sunday Mass. His homily focused on what we could learn from Roger Williams, who incidentally had ties to Unitarianism.
The homily focused mainly on "Seeing God in the beauty of nature". He even recited part of a Native American prayer that Williams learned and wrote about. Actually, he nearly chanted it.
I looked around at the rest of the congregation. I seemed to be the only one that felt ... "concerned".
believer,
>> so then catholics do believe in a works salvation <<
Technically, the RCC promotes a Grace + Works = Salvation. I grew up Catholic.
... I still attend Catholic Mass now and then because my wife has established herself there, but I've distanced myself from their doctrines, and have been searching for other Christ-centered churches.
The works are the redemptive rituals that we need to perform in order to either maintain salvation, or reduce our inevitable time in purgatory, depending on whether or not you've commit mortal or venial sins.
Every time I give Catholic apologetics a chance (a real helluva chance) it fails to reconcile inconsistencies with scripture without taking scripture WAY out on a limb. Some of it is supported in the Septuagint.
Do Catholics engage in idolotry? I don't know. Why do we bow down and genuflect before graven images (oops, I mean statues) of Jesus and Mary? I'm sorry about misconceptions I've had, Lord. Why do we believe in transubstantiation of the host (the communion bread)? Scripture only seems to support communion in terms of "rememberance".
... on and on.
I've constantly struggled with this stuff ... Catholic explanations for why we have to say the rosary always comes up short. John 14:6 says, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." It doesn't say " ... oh, and my mother, too".
... and a bunch of other stuff we can have fun with on a more point-specific basis.
chris, by the way tallguy promotes the same idea!
chris, so then catholics do believe in a works salvation, since I'm going to assume that by doing works one stays saved?
chris,
No. Just ask them how they got saved.
Smbga,
You shouldn't ask how people were saved, but rather how they were saved(past tense), are being saved(present tense) and will be saved(future tense). Salvation is not a one time thing based on Scripture. Many people fall away who knew the good news, then come back and some don't.
I was saved, I am being saved and I will be saved by the Grace of God.
argyle86,
>> i hear her say, i probly should go to chruch again some time... Im hoping some day she will ask to go with me. <<
argyle, it sounds like a perfect opportunity to ask her to go! Make plans to take her out for brunch afterward. Roll with it ! :^) If she says that out loud, she's inviting you to invite her. GO GO GO GO GO! ... and go with God :^)
If athiests dont belive in anything, why do they even care I would use my money to buy stuff if i was an athiest, not spend it on a sign.
"Our members want equal time," Barker said. "Not to muscle, not to coerce, but just to have a place at the table."
A place at the table to offer what? Hopelessness?
And Merry Christmas to you, too? No good will toward men?
I agree, the truth hurts for these atheists
Atheism MURDERED over 15 million people in the past 100 years
I see someone flagged me because the truth hurts.
My post said
Why don't we just put a sign next to theirs that says "Atheism killed over 15 million people in the past 100 years."
trust me i know, and ive been working on her with prayer for over a year now. it seems impossible, but with God all is possible.
argyle: your roommate needs prayer. satan is the one who has blinded her. only God can remove the blinders. thru prayer.
My roomate belives mainly in astrology, but at the same time when we get tracts in the mail, i hear her say, i probly should go to chruch again some time... Im hoping some day she will ask to go with me.
I find a lot of non-belivers in my generation have a sence that Christ is the way in the back of their mind but the world has them so wound up in darkness that they dont consider tring to take of the blindfold of sin and seeking the light.
to all who will answer: how did you get saved? I know that the bottom line is that the Holy Spirit had to draw you. But,....
"From The Crib To The Cross, The Real Christmas Story!"
i like that one, more churches should take that approach, its like easter and christmas combined, 2 great holidays in one!
Argyle, I'd have to agree, even my mother the atheist (it may be time to push that term out) has a little nativity scene and does say the Christmas is about the birth of Jesus. So I say, letting it dwell in the back of minds is a good thing.
smbga, my comment of agreement to argyle was meant for you, sorry about that!:)
argyle, I agree but at the same time many people will come to church only during that time and that's why I see it as a awesome evangelistic opportunity we'd be foolish to not take advantage of, here's another title, "From The Crib To The Cross, The Real Christmas Story!"
Its just one of those things that you never know, even though 99.99% of casheers probly throw away Christian tracts ppl give them, theres still maybe one who might find Christ cause of it, and theres more rejoicing in heaven for that one than for the whole rest of the flock who didnt go astray...
No but the nativity sceens are a reminder that sits in the back of non-belivers minds that tell them theres a way called Jesus out there that people have found and with that in mind they might someday turn. I think every little bit can help somehow in this world.
argyle: I understand what you are saying.
to be honest, I have never witnessed anyone getting saved by singing carols, etc..... I have seen people saved when the Word of God has been shared and the presence of Almighty manifests.
im not being a jerk, but the OT says not to boil the young calf with the mothers milk, and in a sense, the cheese is milk and by melting it is could boil, and your miking it with the meat of another cow that could even be the milk cows offspring... That can be considered a sin... and before the "tatoo" verse in levitcus it makes mention about shaving.
it will probly be a good number of years before i ever have the money to make the trip but thanks for the warning.
argyle: yes i eat cheeseburgers. I don't have a beard. When I ask questions I am not being a jerk. Honestly I am not. Sometimes it will cause people to think if you ask questions.
argyle, I can appreciate where you're coming from, but a word of caution the buyers and sellers are still there and you wouldn't believe what they'll try to sell you, pieces of the Cross of Christ and dirt from Calvary are a couple of examples. Plus if you can go with a study group as opposed to a tourist group you'll get more time to study the sites plus you won't be as limited to just the popular tourist sites.
and of course to rember His birth..
lol my church back home did Christmas in July this year. They had the tree, the songs, and maybe even the advent wreath, i cant remeber. but anyway the pastor used it in a way to magnify how we are not bound to observance of days and feasts and such.
smbga, yes, and while in the pastorate I had no problem teaching about those origins and then sharing what we could do to point people to Christ using those days as an evangelistic opportunity the same way we can use halloween as an evangelistic opportunity by even teaching the truths about its origin. Put I think these are matters that we really need to seek God's wisdom as to how He would have us respond and to obedient to the response He gives us and respect the fact that He may not give everyone the same response. For instance we had a Christmas Eve service that was totally focused on the Christ Child to the point we sang only congregational songs with no solos and we also celebrated the Lord's Supper as a part of the service and on New Years Eve we had a Watchnight service and the Lord's Supper was a part of that as it was a part of our Maundy Thursday, Memorial Day and 4th of July observances.
because id like to see where it all happend and learn more about where my faith came from.
smbga: do you eat cheesburgers? do you shave your beard?
argyle: just out of curiosity why would you want to go?
believer: i am sure that there were things that bothered you. For one thing, the majority still look for Jesus to come. But they are God's chosen. We must love them and pray for them. We can never afford to turn our backs on them.
no i have not but id love to go someday....
Opps, I turned the 6 around. Boy, do I feel old. Haha. And that is why Christ came to fulfill it! Amen!
smbga, my wife and I had the opportunity to visit Israel back in the mid 80s, I enjoyed it for the opportunity to see Jewish living up and close, but there were several things that bothered me.
believer: have you ever found out about easter and christmas, valentine's day, from where and how they originated?
I may have shared this before, but I like the way the Dutch celebrate Christmas, their version of Santa Claus and gift giving is celebrated on Dec. 6th and then Dec. 25th is devoted to celebrating the birth of Christ and spending time with family. And yes, I know that the history of Christmas has no biblical mandate, but at the same time it can serve as a great evangelistic opportunity if we keep it focused on Christ, plus its a great time to preach a sermon with a title like, "Without Good Friday There Would Be No Easter And Without Easter Christmas Would Not Matter!"
argyle: have you ever been to Israel?
nah i was 3 in 89, lol im still a young buck. I was almost conned into the 7th day advantists before though, and thats why i post so strongly about my views on holiday observance and what not, "the Law" nearly made me give up on Christ and i was miserable for quite some time, no matter what you do you can never be perfect to the law, that why grace is so important.
argyle86,
I see you were a "preppy" perhaps in 89? I had Izod shirts, too.
Nice posts.
I agree with the word of God, too, id just rather be free in Christ than be enslaved to the law of moses. No man is justified by his observance of days, or laws, or ordanices, but by the grace of God, by Christ's death on calvery. If we were to still be under the law, Christ died for nothing....
"to be right down to the nitty gritty: we as believers should be celebrating every Jewish Feast. Forget the traditions of man. What does God say? msn: I honestly don't have a bone to pick with anyone. I refuse to be a part of the worldly system."
Your New Moons and your appointed feasts my soul hates. Isaiah 1:14
Romans 14:5-6 (NKJV)
One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every day (alike). Let each be fully convinced in his own mind. {6} He who observes the day, observes it to the Lord; and he who does not observe the day, to the Lord he does not observe it. He who eats, eats to the Lord, for he gives God thanks; and he who does not eat, to the Lord he does not eat, and gives God thanks.
Therefore let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, Colossians 2:16
I see that TheHuron agrees with The Word of God.
The tree isnt a pagan symbol, its a dumb tree that has lights on it that eats you e-bill. This is how i view it in my mind and heart, so that is what it is. God know my feeling on the tree, and he knows that i am not making an idol of it, thus not making me condemned. However if I started praying to the tree, bowing down in worship(not to put presents down) and in my heart was viewing the tree as a god, then yes it would be a pagan idol. The difference between the tree in Jeramiah and christmas trees is that the people of Israle did just this they "worshiped" the tree as an idol, it wasnt a decoration, but a false god.
Let's not forget that the christmas tree is a pagan symbol and to display it is to invite Satan into your life. To be a true christian is to follow the word of god unreservedly. Read Jeremiah chapter 10 verses 1-5
1Hear ye the word which the LORD speaketh unto you, O house of Israel:
2Thus saith the LORD, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them.
3For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe.
4They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not.
5They are upright as the palm tree, but speak not: they must needs be borne, because they cannot go. Be not afraid of them; for they cannot do evil, neither also is it in them to do good.
Phileo: I have to agree with you on the fact that who really comes to Christ by looking at a christmas tree or nativity scene? I hear that argument quite a bit. Not many want Christ simply because they (the world) sees us arguing over everything.
I have yet to read a convincing argument anywhere affirming a positive result in all of this legal wrangling over public holiday displays. Our mandate as Christians is to share the love of Christ with those that have yet to receive the Holy Spirit and believe in Christ. And I have yet to read a case where ANYONE came to Christ by looking at a nativity scene or Christmas tree.
The legal wrangling over the placement of these holiday displays only reinforces a negative perception of Christianity in the public square. And I am quite sure that Jesus would not spend 2 seconds trying to settle a lawsuit over a nativity scene on the steps of the US Capitol. So I would suggest to you that we let the atheists bicker on back and forth as they wish, and we Christians spend our time in more fruitful endeavors, by sharing the Gospel and the love of Christ with all we come in contact with.
Christian, let’s keep our focus on what truly matters.
I'm all for saying "Happy Holidays" during this time of year because it encompasses all the holidays from Thanksgiving through New Years.
But, come on. If there's a decorated tree, it's a "Christmas" tree. And if the lights are red and green, those are "Christmas" decorations.
After all, the Grinch stole "Christmas";
not "The Holiday."
"maybe the atheists sign should have been placed in another side of the building "
Maybe they will see Christ for who he is and get saved!
the majority of the time, the world needs to 'see' how a believer lives. It's not so much in the talking about God. How does a believer react to the things that happen all during the day? Are we producing fruit? Do we stand out in a crowd?
This is the very reason why 'religion' is death. Jesus himself condemned it. I am so thankful that I am no longer a part of it. I was freed when the Holy Spirit opened my eyes to the Truth of God's Word. I have a relationship with God. Not a religious experience. My book title is 'Religion Kills'
"There is only our natural world. Religion is but myth and superstition that hardens hearts and enslaves minds."
Picture in your minds standing before both of these displays. Look very closely at each and then tell me which one conveys the message of hope. Once again religion has been attacked. And we Christians know who our enemy is.
Sorry everyone for using the word "killed" in my last post. That wasn't very PC. I should have used the word "murdered".
Maybe I should put a sign up next to the atheist's sign saying
"Atheism killed over 15 million innocent people in the past 100 years. Yeah, I want to be associated with them."
As Christians we are at liberty to do as Romans 14:5 says, Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
Romans 14:14 . . . to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.
Romans 14:12, So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.
God alone has authority over our lives and we live or die unto him; so, if we do or dont do, this is between us and the Lord . . . right?
maybe the atheists sign should have been placed in another side of the building to prevent the two beleifs
collideing.
The signs are to close to each other.
NICE! msnchris! Thank you for that! It was quite a thing of beauty!
Hebrews 3: 12-15
12See to it, brothers, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. 13But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called Today, so that none of you may be hardened by sin's deceitfulness. 14We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first. 15As has just been said:
"Today, if you hear his voice,
do not harden your hearts
as you did in the rebellion."
Psalm 14 : 1
1 The fool says in his heart,
"There is no God."
They are corrupt, their deeds are vile;
there is no one who does good.
Smbga,
I read Jeremiah 10:1-5, and if you read in the context of the whole bible it means that you shouldn't make idols to worship.
So, don't go and carve up a tree to make an idol that you worship. Sounds good to me, I would agree with that whole heartedly.
Do you think a Christmas tree is the same exact thing that this passage is describing? A christmas tree is not shaped, nor is it an idol. If it is an idol for you, then of course it should be rejected.
We should not worship any idol, but we can use trees, crosses, colors, symbols, nativity scenes to remember what our Lord did for us.
Remember, if Jesus isn't the focus then it is not of God.
This story should serve as a wakeup to Christians who continue to push overtly religious references in public (that is government) situations - freedom of religion is a universal freedom - it doesn't just apply to Christians. Hence, when you push for prayer in public schools, realize you're pushing for the humanist to also have prayer time, and Lord knows what other "pagan" religions. The concept of separation of church and state may seem bad or wrong when you're still somewhat in the majority, but it will work very much for us as "paganism" takes more and more ground. Keep this in mind.
It's nice to see the Athiests acknowledging the existence of Christ birth. After all, why would they even bother if they didn't believe in the existance of Christ and the importance of his birth? Ahh, the irony!!!
msn: Read Jeremiah 10: 1-5
So, we christians have the Christmas Tree up and Nativity Scene up and the Jews have the Minora.
And yet the Atheists put this up," "There is only our natural world. Religion is but myth and superstition that hardens hearts and enslaves minds". This is an outright attack on Christianity and I would consider it hate speech. You don't see on the Christmas Tree that Atheists are going to Hell do you?
Thank you Online. Everyone knows that it is not Christ actual birth, but our friend smbga was implying that Christmas is actually Pagan, which it is not.
The Early Christians took many of the symbols of the Pagans and Christianized them and gave them new meaning. Things like Christmas trees, Holly Wreaths, and many more things were made Christian and "Born Again" into a new meaning and significance, but celebrating the birth of Christ was something that Christians from the earliest centuries did.
Later symbols like the Candy Cane is a good example. Most people don't know that the candy cane is in the Letter of J for Jesus and the Red Stripes are for the Blood he shed on Calvary and the White Stripe is for his purity and goodness.
The most important thing about Christmas is to reflect on the significance that the WORD WAS MADE FLESH. Whether you go to Church on that day, give gifts like the Magi did or how Saint Nicholas who was the Bishop in Turkey gave gifts to children to help children remember the greatest gift of all, which is Jesus Christ. We should not judge how others celebrate the birth of Christ, but all Christians should celebrate it as they see fit so the Christ is glorified as God in the Most Holy Trinity.
to be right down to the nitty gritty: we as believers should be celebrating every Jewish Feast. Forget the traditions of man. What does God say? msn: I honestly don't have a bone to pick with anyone. I refuse to be a part of the worldly system.
msn,
One need not be a funamentalist to know that Dec. 25 is not the day that Christ was born . . .
smba,
I agree with you on the actual date not being Christs date of birth but I also think that msn has a point in that it is okay to relect upon his birth . . . now if anyone wishes to reflect upon his birth on another day, that would be just fine . . . there is nothing set in stone.
Smbga,
By your writing you come off as a fundamentalist with a bone to pick with Catholics and Protestants who all celebrate this day as the Birth of Christ. It is true we do not know the exact day, but what is important is that we celebrate Jesus' birth, which is the greatest event in human history. Jesus' birth should be celebrated because the Word became flesh and because he is our savior.
Moreover, the 25th is special because Pagans celebrated the Sun God, and the Christians wanted to out do the Pagans and celebrate the Son of God. Now pagans are out of business and Christians thrive.
the atheists are doing us a big favor. it is causing a stir. christmas is a pagan holiday. pagan means devoutly religious. and God has nothing to do with religion. Jesus wasn't born on or near Dec. 25. Believers wake up to the Truth. Why are you celebrating something that isn't even of God? Study the roots of christmas. Look it up for yourself.