Sunday, November 08, 2009 Last Update:11:25 am ET

Society|Tue, Dec. 02 2008 04:35 PM EST

Atheist Sign Joins Nativity Scene at Wash. Capitol

By Associated Press Writer|Curt Woodward

OLYMPIA, Wash. — An atheist group has unveiled an anti-religion placard in the state Capitol, joining a Christian Nativity scene and "holiday tree" on display during December.

The atheists' sign was installed Monday by Washington members of the Freedom From Religion Foundation, a national group based in Madison, Wis.

With a nod to the winter solstice - the year's shortest day, occurring in late December - the placard reads, in part, "There is only our natural world. Religion is but myth and superstition that hardens hearts and enslaves minds."

The foundation's co-president, Dan Barker, said it was important for atheists to offer their viewpoint alongside the overtly religious Nativity scene and Christmas-style holiday tree.

"Our members want equal time," Barker said. "Not to muscle, not to coerce, but just to have a place at the table."

The three displays, all privately sponsored, were granted permits from state groundskeepers to be placed in the Capitol's grand marble hallways.

The 25-foot noble spruce, officially called the "Capitol Holiday Kids Tree," is sponsored by the Association of Washington Business and tied to a charity drive for needy families. It's been a Capitol fixture for nearly 20 years.

Although nominally secular, the tree is clearly recognizable as a sign of Christmas: It's strung with lights, topped by a large golden star and usually surrounded by faux wrapped presents.

In 2006, a Jewish group sponsored a Capitol menorah, the candelabrum that marks Hanukkah. That prompted local real estate agent Ron Wesselius to propose a Capitol nativity scene depicting the birth of Christ.

The request was turned down, with state lawyers saying they didn't have enough time to wade through issues of government religious endorsement. Wesselius sued; his Nativity scene was installed in 2007 and again this year. No menorah is on display in 2008.

On Monday, the Nativity scene and atheist sign were installed alongside each other in a hallway between the state Senate and House chambers, separated by a large bust of the state's namesake, George Washington.

Asked whether he was bothered by the atheist display next to his Nativity scene, Wesselius said, "I think the Nativity scene will speak for itself."

But he added, "I appreciate freedom of speech and freedom of access. That's why they're in there, and hey - you know, that's great."

For now, the atheist sign is a stand-in. The metal plaque meant for display was delayed by a shipping error, Barker said.

It will be two-sided, with a lengthy message on the main side, and "Keep State/Church Separate" on the back. Barker said that step is necessary because critics have sometimes spun around the group's other statehouse display, in Wisconsin, in hopes of hiding its message.

Copyright 2008 Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed.
Sort by: Newest | Oldest | Agree | Disagree
All comments on this page are subject to our Terms of Use and do not necessarily reflect the views of The Christian Post or its staff.
1 | 2 | 3
  • Tue Dec 09, 2008 6:05 pm Agree: 4   Disagree: 3

    msn,

    Wow, you sound irritated my friend . . . you said, (you contradict yourself so much . . .)

    It would be beneficial for everyone here if you can be a bit more specific; can you give an example?

    By the way, you have yet to respond to my critiques of the Catholic Church . . . it has been nearly a month since we last chatted on the article: Second Episcopal Diocese Breaks from National Church; and I am still waiting for a response there.

  • Tue Dec 09, 2008 11:59 am Agree: 5   Disagree: 6

    speaking of snipets. it seems that catholics don't even read the bible. most of the things they teach aren't even in the bible and go against the scriptures. if catholics actually studied the bible they would realize that much of catholicism is waaaaaaaay off base.

  • Tue Dec 09, 2008 11:45 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 6

    Online,

    When you've chosen to finally read all of Scripture instead of just a few snipets, let me know. Until then just realize that your remarks reek of someone who has never read all of the Bible. You contradict yourself so much, it is like listening to John Kerry on the Senate floor. If when your writing you critiques of the Catholic Church, just listen because you probably will hear me laughing all the way from the West coast at your attempt to use scripture. Reading many of your posts reminds me of when you ask some kids to do a book report, and the kids that only read parts of it try to write it and comes across as having a larger missing link than evolution.

    Do some real homework, my stomach can't stand laughing so much. You would be hilarious at a party, I'm sure.

  • Sun Dec 07, 2008 5:15 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 2

    Thanks! I showed my wife and she said "that's disappointing!" She's become kind of fond of David Tenant. I understand Tenant is going to be around for a while yet.

    Maybe we could get The Doctor to come fix this idiocy in WA state!

  • Sun Dec 07, 2008 4:20 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

    DP

    Hot news about the Doctor Who Christmas special, the Doctor meets a future him, if you get my drift and he/they fight the Cyberman!! If this link works it's both of them together...BRILL. http://dailypop.files.wordpress.com/2008/04/drwhoxmas.jpg

  • Sat Dec 06, 2008 1:32 pm Agree: 5   Disagree: 6

    The government needs to ban that sign anyway, under the hate law. That just has hate written all over it. And if the government is going to ban a Christian ad condemning homosexuality, then they need to ban the sign that condemns Christianity.

  • Sat Dec 06, 2008 12:38 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    "and later found in a ditch."

    Fox News reported that it was found outside a country music radio station who called the police. Bill O. sure has some interesting ...words... ... about the Governor of WA!

  • Sat Dec 06, 2008 11:56 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

    Sounds like some insecure Christians at work there...

  • Sat Dec 06, 2008 1:01 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    Recent news item: (CNN) -- An atheist sign criticizing Christianity that was erected alongside a Nativity scene was taken from the Legislative Building in Olympia, Washington, on Friday and later found in a ditch.

  • Fri Dec 05, 2008 6:42 pm Agree: 3   Disagree: 1

    (Just for fun, please show me any place in the Bible where it says that you must go by Scripture ALONE)

    The Word of God is the only authority for the Christian faith. Traditions are valid only when they are based on Scripture and are in full agreement with Scripture. Traditions that contradict the Bible are not of God and are not a valid aspect of the Christian faith. Sola scriptura is the only way to avoid subjectivity and personal opinion from taking priority over the teachings of the Bible. The essence of sola scriptura is basing your spiritual life on the Bible alone, and rejecting any tradition or teaching that is not in full agreement with the Bible. Second Timothy 2:15 declares, (Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth).

    Where do we see Tradition authoritatively quoted in Scripture . . . Jesus also says that the Scriptures cannot be broken . . . where do we hear Jesus elevating Tradition in the same manner?

    (. . . or that we are saved by FAITH Alone? You won't.)

    But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

    Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness WITHOUT WORKS,
    Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered (Romans 4:5-7).

    (We clearly see in the Bible nothing can be contrary to it . . .)

    There have been many posts where your tradition has been exposed to be unbiblical and still you cling to your tradition despite the evidence . . . consider the words of Jesus:

    And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition (Mark 7:9).

  • Fri Dec 05, 2008 6:25 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    chris, throughout the history of the Church there was always a remnant of true believers who did and continue to do there best to stay true to the Word of God and the catholic church ain't them but there are catholics who are a part of that church as well. Plus show me scripture that forbids a group of believers from starting their own church. Cornelius did and he was not of the apostolic order that you as opposed to the Bible refers to.

  • Fri Dec 05, 2008 6:21 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 1

    chris, how about Ephesians 2:8-10 as I stated already, by grace alone, through faith alone, because of Christ alone does a person become a child of God!

  • Fri Dec 05, 2008 5:47 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    At one time, maybe even now...

    A history of Auricular Confession and Indulgences in The Latin Church Vol. 3 By Henry Charles LEA, LL.D:

    "There is a trifling indulgence for little images of St. Peter, which are an exception to the general rule in that they require to be blessed by the pope himself. In 1857 Pius IX. granted fifty days for kissing the feet of the bronze statue of St. Peter in the Vatican basilica, and in 1877 he extended this to small images of it, good both for the possessors and their families. Limited as is the indulgence, being toties quoties, and the work to acquire it infinitesimal, it could be multiplied indefinitely, until, in 1880, Leo XIII. limited it to one in each day." [end quote]

    What spirit do you think was behind such a thing? It was definitely not the Holy Spirit. Let us take heed, "There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death" (Pr 14:12).

  • Fri Dec 05, 2008 5:29 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    I could never be 100% Catholic. I couldn't be 100% pentacost, or baptist, or presbyterian. But I am 100% part of the Church. I am part of the Body of Christ, and the Bride of Christ.

  • Fri Dec 05, 2008 5:28 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    msnchris,
    Show me scripture to support confession to priests and their ability to forgive sins.

    Show me scripture to support the perpetual virginity of Mary.

    Show me scripture to support that Mary was sinless.


    By the way, the Catholics are merely another division among the many denominations. The true Church bears no name other than Jesus Christ. I hope you won't be too upset when you discover that there are baptists and pentacosts in this Church. And I hope you won't be too disappointed when many Catholics that you may have looked up to, aren't.

  • Fri Dec 05, 2008 5:01 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    chris,
    I have looked at your sites and I disagree that the Apostles teaching infant baptism is fact. In fact, I do not believe we have the authority to add to God's Word the teaching of infant baptism. The Bible clearly teachig that salvation comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God as well as the conviction that one is a sinner in need of a Savoir.

  • Fri Dec 05, 2008 4:47 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    Muggleborn,

    I am aware that there are Catholic who don't believe everything, but they are not 100% catholic because our church says they are not.

    They are still Christian, but as Paul says we must be of one mind, one faith, one baptism one Lord.

    Protestantism ecourages disunity, Catholicims encourages unity of faith.

  • Fri Dec 05, 2008 4:35 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Forgivensinner,

    If you truly seek Truth you will go to those websites.

    Believer,

    Just for fun, please show me any place in the Bible where it says that you must go by Scripture ALONE, or that we are saved by FAith Alone? You won't.

    Also, could you show me in Scripture where you have the right to start your own church outside of the Apostolic Church founded by Christ?

  • Fri Dec 05, 2008 4:33 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    msnchris,

    >> where the person sitting next to you in church may disagree with the teachings of their church but they still attend, we Catholics are not like that. <<

    chris, I know tons of fellow Catholics who don't believe in various aspects of RCC doctrines and still attend. I've heard some priests say rather questionable things, and some bishops say questionable things. Some official doctrine has only been validated in the last couple hundred years, i.e. the bodily assumption of Mary?

    I also now see how most Catholic priests are JUST as afraid to speak out on abortion or homosexuality for fear of losing their congregation, just like in many Protestant churches.

  • Fri Dec 05, 2008 4:32 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    Forgivensinner,

    You will find in those websites scripture passages that point to infant baptism.

    It is not explicit since the children who were baptised we don't know if they were one years old, two, more or less. What we do know for a fact, that infant baptism was 100% accepted as Apostolic teaching and never being question even by the Reformers.

    Jesus, as the bible says, did and said many things that are not contained in the Bible. The Apostles through Sacred Tradition passed down the teachings of Christ.

    Unlike Protestants who are limited to only the written Word of God, we Catholics have the written Word of God, we have the Oral Word of God safeguarded through Christian Tradition, and we have the Teaching Authority of the Church given to us by Christ.

    The Word of God is Oral, it is written and it is EATEN in the Eucharist. All of these come from the same source...GOD. This is why Protestantism is limited, and why there is such a wide array of diversity of belief.

    We clearly see in the Bible nothing can be contray to it, we clearly see that Oral Word of God passed in Tradition was given the same weight as the written Word of God. We see clearly that no Tradition can be contrary to the Word of God and we also see the Bible is clear that Jesus left us a Church who had HIS AUTHORITY over the people of God.

    This authority is still with the Catholic Church. No authority, no wonder there is such disagreement within Protestantism.

    Here is something fun for you, go ask a Presbyterian a Lutheran a Anglican a Methodist or a Reformed Minister and have them tell you why Baptism of infants is biblical?

    Doesn't it ever hit you, which seems obvious to me, that the newer the Christian sect the less they believe than the previous denomination that they left? With each year Protestantism is being watered down and becoming more and more irrelevant, while the Catholic Church stands firm in her beliefs.

    When your beliefs were handed to you by God through the Apostles, there is no prophesy of scripture that is up to personal interpretation. But when your belief has been handed down to you from some man who started his own church and has no connection to the Apostles, then you can think what you want since this man has no God given authority. God's authority is only handed down through apostolic succession like the bible clearly shows in electing Mathias and how they laid hands on the early leaders of the Church to carry on.

  • Fri Dec 05, 2008 4:26 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    chris, the Bible does not teach the perpetual virginity of Mary and in fact it states just the opposite and please sight where believers are told to go to a specific person to confess their sins since the closest you can come is I believe in James were encouraged to confess our sins to one another, but not to a specific person, plus other than maybe catholic versions their is no reputable translation of the Bible that even recognizes the office of priest in the Church.

  • Fri Dec 05, 2008 4:25 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    believer, I also find it interesting that this is another area where silence is claimed.

  • Fri Dec 05, 2008 4:23 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    believer, yes, I am aware of this argument.

  • Fri Dec 05, 2008 4:17 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    Prophet,

    I appreciate your thoughts. Excommunication is not a very common thing. There are probably less than 20 people who have been excommuncated in the last 100 years.

    If you don't believe in the perpetual virginity of Mary, which the early church professed or confessing your sins to a Priest or bishop which is in the Bible and has been done since the very beginning of the church. We see clearly that Bishops and Priests have the power by Christ to forgive sins or retain sins and if you are sick you can go to a priest and he will anoint you with oil and and he will pray over you and any of your sins will be forgiven. No where in scripture does it say you have to believe in the Trinity to be Christian, but to be Christian you must believe in the Trinity. Do you get my point?

    If you don't believe the teachings of the Catholic Church, then leave. Unlike Protestants who have more of an ala carte system and cater to believers who disagree on the most basic of Christian doctrines, where the person sitting next to you in church may disagree with the teachings of their church but they still attend, we Catholics are not like that.

    You must believe 100% of what the Church teaches, because our Church was founded by God on the apostles. Our teachings are apostolic, which were handed down to them from Jesus himself and through the Holy Spirit. Our Church was promised by the Holy Spirit to be led into all truth, so if you disagree with our INfallible teachings then you can leave. We won't change and we will stand of the firm ground we were placed by Christ.

    Since no protestant church will declare that their teachings are infallible, then everyone is open for their own interpretation creating a non-biblical situation of everyone being their own Pope.

    There is no unity of faith in Protestantism, other than the one thing we can all agree on that Jesus is the only way and that He is our savior.

  • Fri Dec 05, 2008 4:12 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    forgiven, you won't cause it ain't there, but what they'll try and say is when the Philippian jailer's family received Christ and were baptized chances are some of them were little children if not infants.

  • Fri Dec 05, 2008 4:10 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    chris, but I bet none of those sites can show any teachings from Christ or in the New Testament to support infant baptism other than taking the story of the Philippian jailer's family totally out of context?

  • Fri Dec 05, 2008 4:09 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    chris,
    You are directing me to a catholic site, where will I find the teaching of infant baptism in the NT scriptures?

  • Fri Dec 05, 2008 4:07 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    muggle, your view of works is exactly what I too was led to believe while a catholic and yes John the Baptist did rebuke the Jewish religious leaders and people about that very thing, doing works which look good but hide the real condition of their hearts from others but not from God who knows their heart.

  • Fri Dec 05, 2008 4:06 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    Works are a result of salvation, not a cause.
    Works merely dictate our reward in heaven, not our acceptance to heaven.
    Works in order to secure salvation, is work devoid of love, and is worthless.

  • Fri Dec 05, 2008 4:05 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Forgivensinner,

    For information on Baptism of infants and the constant 2000 years of this Apostolic teaching go to:

    http://www.catholic.com/library/Infant_Baptism.asp

    http://www.catholic.com/library/Early_Teachings_of_Infant_Baptism.asp

    http://www.catholic.com/library/sacraments.asp

    If you really want to know, this should answer your question.

  • Fri Dec 05, 2008 4:04 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    msnchris,
    I would be labeled a protestant, and I call Mary blessed. I just don't idolize her (which is a sin) like the Catholics do.

    "If you will confees with your mouth the Lord Jesus, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead you will be saved. For with the heart a man believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth the confession is made unto salvation."

    That's the only works required.

    You said "Much like how Praise and worship music is a Protestant ritual found nowhere in the bible, altar calls, and many more items these are all still good things if they get you closer to Christ. Tradition, ceremonies and rituals can be good or bad irregardless of Church or place"

    The difference is that what the Catholics do, they teach as doctrine. Altar calls, the music we play, etc etc, are not taught as doctrine. They vary greatly from church to church on how they approach it. Same with Sunday School. Therein lies the anti-scriptural teachings of the RCC. If a protestant says that he doesn't agree with the way the altar call is done, he is still accepted, he is not excommunicated or anything else. If a Catholic says that they do not believe in the perpetual virginity of Mary, or the confession of sins to priests, they are looked down upon and thought of as apostate. I use those two examples because I have a friend who was Catholic, who expressed his concern with those two ideologies, and was all but excommunicated.

  • Fri Dec 05, 2008 4:02 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Muggleborn,

    There are always weeds within the Roses. Amen to that!
    Going to confession, praying, reading the Bible, doing devotionals, saying the Rosary all bring God's Grace into your life in abundance are good works showing how we cooperate with God's grace.

    Our works or actions are either cooperating with God's saving Grace or they are against it. Our works either reveal our faith or show a lack of it. Our works manifests the depth of our faith, or the shallowness of it.

    Mt. 7:21 not Lord, Lord, but he who does the will of the Father. Mt. 19:16-17 to have life keep the commandments, Rom 2:2-8 eternal life by perserverance in Good works. Gal 5:4-6 Nothing counts but faith working through Love.,
    Eph 2:8-10 we are created in Christ Jesus for good works, Phil 2:12-13 work out your salvation with fear and trembling, James 2:14-24 A man is justified by works & not by faith alone.

    There are many more on how we are judged for what we do, either good or bad. These scripture verses do not imply we do it on our own, but rather how we can cooperate with God's Grace and do the works God has built up into us by His Grace.

  • Fri Dec 05, 2008 3:47 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    msnchris,

    I agree about saying some prayer and being saved being very misleading ... in fact, it would ironically be regarded as a "work" in that sense. Evangelical pastors have rebuked others for this. Every church has its issues. Believer, back me up on that? Isn't that sort of thing exactly what John the Baptist spoke of to the Pharisees when they asked "What must they do" to receive salvation?

    You must receive the Eucharist, make Confession (and penance i.e. something to make up for my sins), attend Mass on holy days of "Obligation" ... obligation? Isn't that what we're trying to avoid by letting our works be a reflection of out love for God?

    Chris, I'm still giving this a chance ... it's the subtleties I'm concerned with. I understand that the RCC is constantly bombarded and infiltrated by demonic ideologies and sinful opportunists, i.e. the priest I spoke of, earlier. I want to keep the dialog open.

  • Fri Dec 05, 2008 3:45 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    chris,
    What scriptures in the NT teach infant baptism?

  • Fri Dec 05, 2008 3:29 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    chris, plus you know I am by no means a proponent of cheap grace theology as you advocated in your last post to me and you also know that of a majority of posters on these sights.

  • Fri Dec 05, 2008 3:26 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    chris, but I'm glad you're affirming what I was taught in catholic school, seminary, and at my catholic church as well.

  • Fri Dec 05, 2008 3:25 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    chris, so what you're saying is that the catholic church does not teach a works salvation but they teach if you don't do works you'll lose your salvation, sure sounds like works salvation to me or are you saying that Christ alone is sufficient to save us but not keep us? So then what do you do with Ephesians 2:8-10?

  • Fri Dec 05, 2008 3:15 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    IHS,

    WELCOME HOME BROTHER IN CHRIST! WOW, A Priest! This is a huge step and I will pray for you. There will be many people like Beleiver who will offer pedantic remarks, but you are on the right track.

    If you think you loved Jesus as a Protestant, just wait till you take the Eucharist for the first time and His Holy Blood. You will have a new life in you, and that new life is CHRIST!

    Praise be to Jesus Christ! Don't forget to email me if you have anymore questions. msnchris70@hotmail.com

    GOD BLESS YOU, the angels in heaven are singing songs of praise to God!

  • Fri Dec 05, 2008 3:11 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Forgivensinner,

    All our rituals and ceremonies have been developed over time through Apostolic Tradition. All our rituals adore God. All our cultural aspects help you focus on your faith, hope and love for God.

    Much like how Praise and worship music is a Protestant ritual found nowhere in the bible, altar calls, and many more items these are all still good things if they get you closer to Christ. Tradition, ceremonies and rituals can be good or bad irregardless of Church or place, it all depends on the focus of it, right?

    Also, we are historically and biblically the Church of Christ. If you will read any of the Church fathers, it will hit you like it did me as a Reformed Minister that they prayed and believed as Catholics do today. The Early church was not Protestant. It was Catholic.

    The Early Christian Church baptized infants, knew the Eucharist was the true presence of Christ, had Bishops, Priests and Deacons as the Biblical hierarchy, prayed for the dead, prayed to the Saints in Heaven like the blessed Mother, Saint Peter and Saint Paul and other Saints they knew died for the faith, honored Mary and the Apostles, went to confession to a priest or Bishop in a group or private setting, said the Liturgy of the hours, blessed themselves, etc, etc. So, not only can we historically see a clear continuation of Bishops since Peter, but we have the same practices and beliefs.

    There are many Protestant Pastors today who are coming Home to the Catholic Church because, with the Internet information such as the early church fathers being more easilly accessible, they can see it plain as day the early church was One, it was Holy, it was Catholic and it was Apostolic.

  • Fri Dec 05, 2008 3:02 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Believer,

    You know we are not a works salvation religion, but if you need to think that to keep you in the Protestant ranks then so be it.

    The theological reason why we say we were saved, are being saved and will be saved is quite simple. Yes, Jesus died once and for all. Basic seminary stuff here. The thing you so conveniently forget are all the many scripture verses that attest to salvation being an individual process and not a one time thing. We are saved by grace through faith working in love. By Grace God has built into us through faith works for us to cooperate with to make us ready for Heaven, so by responding and cooperating with God's Grace and saying "YES" to His will and not ours' we will be saved. Like any gift, we have the Free choice to reject it at any time.

    Salvation is more than just saying the word "YES" to Jesus, it is living a life for Christ and cooperating with the mighty Grace which has been freely given to us. We cannot work our way to Heaven nor can we earn our way to Heaven. The works of the Old Law don't work anymore, since the new Gospel is Christ himself.

    You must cooperate with God's grace. This doesn't mean you are perfect or not a sinner since as we all fall short, but your heart and mind must be leading you closer and closer to Jesus by our daily "Yes" to Christ revealed through our actions. Like Saint Paul we must perservere to the end in our faith and faith without works is an empty faith.

    Faith is nothing, if it is not an active outgrowth of love.

    I'm sorry but many Protestant Churches are leading many people to the Devil by telling them that once they are saved they are always saved and once you say the "JESUS" prayer which is no place found in the Bible that you can't be taken from Christ hands. This is manipulated and false scriptural understanding. An individual can reject God's grace at any time through living in an unrepentant state of Mortal sin. This once saved always saved fallacy tells people you can do whatever you want and their is no judgement on what you do since you said this "Jesus" prayer and were "Saved". This theology is unbiblical and unapostolic.

  • Fri Dec 05, 2008 2:12 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    msnchris & IHS,

    Thanks for your responses, and I do appreciate your inputs. I can definitely assure you that I am going beyond my due dilligence to resolve this struggle. In fact, I get the feeling that the struggle is probably where God wants me to be at this moment, if I understand anything about the doctrine of sovereignty ;^)

    I'm familiar with Pelagius and the concept of asceticism. I'm not surprized that the RCC would have condemned it, but that was to extremes it uuuh ... seems (that rhymes!). BTW, where does the RCC say that original sin came from, now that we believe in evolution and E.T.? I know that comes across as acrimonious, but I felt the need to phrase it that way ... and I haven't had time to research it.

    I've said probably a good couple hundred full rosaries in my lifetime. Always ask ... don't assert, but no harm done. I've done the Chaplet of Divine Mercy for 7 (or so) years with my mom, who tends to point me to the Catecism, whenever I have questions. I might argue about how Christ-centric the rosary really is, but I can assure you I still call Mary "The Blessed Mother". I'm sorry, though ... I'm at odds with her other title ... "Queen of Heaven".

    I know there are disconnects and misunderstandings between the RCC and reformists et al, and that no particular "denomination" is 100% correct ... but that's kind of the problem. I continually find that I have to put my faith in Christ and Christ alone, and not in banner which waves in the name of Christ. Being alligned with a body of believers is fine, but I cannot rely on their organization to save me or condemn me. I've read James, and I'm "somewhat" prepared to discuss the "works" issue with you.

    I'll have to save it for now, though. I'm sure we'll get a chance to cross-reference and compare.

    I need to get some work done, so I'll leave with this for now:
    You know the old philosipher's query "If God is all powerful, can He make a rock that even He can't move" (not an exact quote)? The answer is "Yes". It's metaphorical of course; that rock is His unbroken and eternal word, which does not change for the world's convenience, but will stand for His glory, forever.

    God bless. We'll talk later.

  • Fri Dec 05, 2008 1:40 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    chris, so then what did you mean by we are being saved, especially since Christ died once for sins so that we might be saved?

  • Fri Dec 05, 2008 1:37 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    chris, if you don't believe works are a required part of salvation then why can a mortal sin not confessed to a priest send a person to hell?

  • Fri Dec 05, 2008 1:35 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    ihs, you becoming a catholic, like none of us saw that coming!:)

  • Fri Dec 05, 2008 1:34 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    chris, considering most catholics worship Mary more than Christ it's pretty obvious why many of the "saints" of the catholic church would have a high regard for her.

  • IHS »
    Fri Dec 05, 2008 12:42 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Muggleborn:

    I commend you for seeking the Lord. I found Jesus years ago. My father was a preacher and my Grand daddy was a Preacher from a Baptist/non-denomination/Pentecostal background. Quite a mix, hey?

    I am currently in Seminary and was hoping to become a Pastor of an evangelical Church. Over the last two years I have learned a lot about many Christian denominations, at seminary and on Christianpost. It has been a blessing.

    I haven't been on Christianpost for awhile because of my studies and the fact that I have been discerning a call to convert to Catholicism and become a Priest. This will be big news to all of you and has been to my family as well, but there are so many reasons why I want to become Catholic and they are all bible based.

    If after talking to Tallguy or MsnChris about the Catholic faith, I would be happy to share as well and will happilly give you my email if you are interested.
    It sounds like you need to go to an RCIA class at your church for more basics on the faith.

    My faith in the last two years has deepend and I am growing so close to Christ. The Catholic Church is where you can receive the true body of Christ every single day! It won't be just sourdough and grape juice symbolizing Jesus, it will be Jesus in His full divinity just like the Apostles always taught.

    MsnChris and Tallguy have been instrumental and I praise God for Him bringing me more in communion with Him through His One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church! I can't wait to be Catholic!

  • Fri Dec 05, 2008 12:39 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Wow, chris.

    Just becuase the Catholic church as a history that can be traced back to Peter founding the church of Christ at Rome does not mean it's the same church.

    I am sorry, I do not mean to as blunt as you have been. It is simply that the organizational hierarchy is not that which is taught in the New testament at all. In fact, the catholic church with all it's rituals, ceremonies and offices does not look anything like "The New testament church".

    I agree their are many churches that are made by men and do not conform to the image of Christ's Body. The Bible, the New Testament gives us that clear picture of what His Body, His church looks like. Anything else is not His church, not The church.

  • Fri Dec 05, 2008 12:18 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 2

    Mary is still the best example of a Christian. It is her "yes" to Christ and never forsaking Him that we must all follow.

    All generations shall call her blessed, except for those Bible believing Protestants who so conveniently skip that passage. Any group of Christians who denigrate the Mother of God like some Protestants do, are no friend of Christ.

  • Fri Dec 05, 2008 12:14 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 2

    Believer,

    Our Lady of Fatima has brought millions to a relationship with Christ in Portugal and other places. Our Lady of Guadalupe brought millions of people to faith in Christ in Mexico. Wherever Our Lady appears, she is always without question pointing people to her Son. She points all worship to her Son. People because they have come to a saving relationship with Christ honor Mary as their Mother and as the Mother of God.

    These wonderful Christians honor Mary with their love, because it was Mary who brought them to a saving relationship with Christ. Honoring Mary takes nothing away from the King of Kings. The deeper you love Mary, the closer you will become to Christ her Son.

    All the greatest Saints of the Church had a deep devotion to Mary, because as a loving Mother for all of us she brings us closer to Christ. Biblically and historically and traditionally, Mary always points to Christ.

  • Fri Dec 05, 2008 12:08 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    Muggleborn,

    You sound that you are genuinely seeking a deeper relationship with God, which I commend. You are searching more for Christ which is the best thing ever. The problem is you will never find Christ more fully in a Protestant church that denies so many Apostolic teachings, like Baptism, like the Eucharist being the True Presence of Christ, like the fact we are THE CHURCH instead of a Church, like the fact no where in the Bible does it say or allow starting your own church like the Protestants did, like the fact that Protestants have two key unbibilical doctrines that are completely unApostolic like; The Bible alone and by faith alone.

    I know many Protestants who I revere and respect and know they are saved. I would say that there are some amazing Baptists and Pentecostals who I know who love the Lord and are great examples of Christians. The problem occurs when you realize there are 40,000 sects of different Protestant strands and none of them share the same faith.

    Think about it for a minute, the Protestants love the Bible which was written and collated and canonized by the Catholic Church. The New Testament is a Catholic book. All the major tenets of the Christian faith were decided by Catholics.

    The two largest doctrines of Protestants(Bible alone and faith alone) are not only not found in the Bible, but they are contrary to the Bible as a whole. Also, all the oldest Christian Churches; Catholics, Orthodox, Coptics, Armenian and Syrian all have the same seven sacraments and believe 98-99% of the same faith. Why? Well, because the Apostles founded all these churches. Protestantism is a tradition of Men, not of God. You can still be saved in a Protestant church, but the fullness of Christ revelation is only found in the Catholic Church. God founded the Church of Christ which is the Catholic Church, fact. We see it in the Bible and historically. Nothing preceded the Holy Catholic Church.

    The good thing about your path is that you are truly seeking Jesus. The bad thing is you have not been properly taught the faith and that has created your current problems with theology. You owe it to your family to pursue the Catholic faith to its fullest and ask questions. I am here for you. Remember, I was a former Protestant Reformed Pastor who finally saw the light and came home to the True Church of Christ. Do your due dillegence.

Please help us to monitor our message boards by flagging comments that are unlawful, harmful, threatening, abusive, harassing, defamatory, vulgar, obscene, libelous, hateful, or racially, ethnically or otherwise objectionable.
Contact Us if you have any questions, comments, or concerns.
Comment on this story
ID Password

Don't have a Christian Post ID? Signing up is easy. Click Here

  • icon1
  • icon2
  • icon3
  • icon4
  • icon5
The Christian Post reserves the right to terminate the account of any User who violates our Terms of Use.
Advertisement
Advertisement
CP Shopping
  • Jewelry
  • Health
  • Gifts
  • Music
  • Coins

Bracelets | Chains | Crosses | Earrings | Gemstone |

Featured contents & Giveaways
Zondervan

Struggling to succeed in the Nashville music scene, talented singer/songwriter Parker James finds the competition fierce even deadly. A young woman's murder, industry corruption, a

Featured Advertiser Links