A Salvation Army leader is likely to be terminated after he announced his engagement to a woman who is not affiliated with the organization.
Capt. Johnny Harsh, a leader for the Oshkosh Salvation Army in Wisconisn, was suspended this week for violating a rule that requires officers to marry only from within The Salvation Army.
The suspension and expected termination did not come as a surprise to Harsh as he was aware of the rule when he joined the Christian aid agency. But he still feels it is unfair.
"I knew the rule and that this was coming and that I would be let go," said Harsh, according to The Northwestern. "But for The Salvation Army to let me go because I will marry outside of the Army, I think is wrong. I pray that people will write letters and call the Salvation Army to change this ruling. It wouldn't be for my benefit, but for future officers."
The marriage rule has been in place almost since the founding of The Salvation Army in 1865 by Methodist minister William Booth. Booth and his wife, Catherine, determined in those early years that married couples who function together in The Salvation Army are far more effective than having one spouse who was committed to the ministry while the other was committed elsewhere, according to Major George Hood, national community relations secretary for The Salvation Army.
The requirement, still in place today, is that both the man and the woman be ordained ministers within the organization, Hood explained.
"The rationality is that it's a joint ministry ... a team ministry. And both the husband and wife work together in all their assignments," said Hood, whose wife works alongside him in Alexandria, Va.
"For us, it has always been a policy and anyone who applies to be trained and ordained knows this up front," he added, noting that the policy is extremely effective and strengthens the mission of the ministry.
There have been marriages in The Salvation Army that failed, Hood acknowledged. Those who divorce are forced to resign from their positions. If, however, there is clear indication of a non-guilty party, that party is allowed to continue in the ministry.
The marriage policy is unique to The Salvation Army, Hood commented. But no one is taken by surprise by it, he added.
Hood declined commenting on Harsh's case, saying it is a personal matter between the family and the administration.
Harsh had been married to Capt. Yalanda "Yoley" Harsh but she died unexpectedly of complications from a heart attack in June.
"Yoley's death was completely unforeseen," he said, according to The Northwestern. "It's been hard on my daughters, myself and our Salvation Army family."
A final decision on Harsh's position is expected next week at a Salvation Army Territorial Officers Board meeting.
RSS
believer - In case you stop by, I have been seeking God about the Baptism in the name of the Father. When I know I will post.
IHS
>>> Some only baptized in the name of Jesus because of what Peter said in Acts, but that was because those Christians had yet to read or hear where Jesus told them how to baptize specifically. Jesus said how to specifically how to baptize, and Peter was saying generally not as a formal procedure.<<<
"Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." (Act 2:38)
Peter spoke the above under the authority of the Father thru the inspiriation of the Holy Ghost. It is God's way to do water baptism. Peter got it right, the early Chirstians and those who do it now in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost have it wrong.
ihs, your reference to Lazarus and the rich man, this was prior to the Crucifixion of Christ and very few people were taken directly into heaven and if they had put their faith in the Promised Messiah when they died they went to Abraham's Bosom while those who did not put their faith in the Promised Messiah went to Hades where they and those who reject Jesus Christ as Savior are still to this day awaiting the Great White Throne Judgment. That is why the rich man could converse with Abraham because he was in Hades and Abraham was in Abraham's Bosom which many believe was a part of Hades minus the pain and suffering and although there is a question as to when this event occurred after Jesus died on the Cross He went to Abraham's Bosom and took all those there to heaven and Abraham's Boson if it still even exists has been totally vacated. Plus, the Transfiguration was a one time event never repeated since so to use this as grounds to say people in heaven can observe the day to day happenings on earth is shaky at best, now can the saints in heaven intercede on behalf of some on the earth, perhaps but I believe it could only be as God brings those names to mind for them to intercede for.
IHS responded back to everyone but me . . . hmm, hopefully he will stop be this evening and continue in this discussion.
IHS - I am still waiting for you to explain what you mean when you say that you have been a Christian all your life.
IHS
Re:Pergatory
The teaching of a purgatory in 2 Macabbees runs counter to all the teachings Jesus gave on heaven and hell. If Macabbees was inspired by God then the teaching in it would be consistent with the teachings of Jesus. It obviously is not for Jesus taught that once you die, where ever you end up it is forever. If you die in your sins, you go to hell. You don't go to purgatory to be purged of sins you weren't forgiven for here on the earth. If you die with your sins forgiven, you go to heaven. Heaven is forever. Hell is forever.
The truth is either given in 2 Macabees or it is given by Jesus. If you accept Macabees then you are calling Jesus a liar. If He is a liar then He is not the Christ and you are not saved and are still dead in your sins. There is no reconcilation between Macabees and what Jesus taught.
The RCC is notorius for thumbing its nose in the face of God's Word. What Jesus says don't do, you do. The RCC needs to stop trying to make the Word of God say something that it does not say. Your whole religious institution is based on man. The RCC denies anybody enslaved to it the right to have a personal relationship with Christ. You will never find Jesus in all those rituals. All you have is a personal relationship with a unholy spirit. No where are the practices and teachings of the RCC in the Word of God. I know you don't see it that way but it is true. It will take God to remove the blinders off your eyes to see the truth. Hopefully, someday He will and when He does hopefully you will swallow your pride and renounce Catholicism and leave that ungodly Church called the RCC and start worshipping God in spirit and truth.
The Catholic Church is not the true Church. The true Church is comprised of believers from every denomination. And God isn't more present in the Catholic Church. God moves greatly in signs, wonders, salvations, and glory in many other churches. I have been to catholic churches. I was tempted to hook people up to EKG's just to see if they were alive or not. But I realized that the only ones I had to worry about were the ones who didn't engage in the "Holy Calesthenics".
Heaven. The Bible never describes heaven for us. Christians have been indoctinated for hundreds of years that Revelation 21 is describing heaven. At best, it is describing the New Jerusalem (which isn't heaven). But if you read the entire chapter, you will realize that it is indeed a description of a spiritual occurence.
Revelations 21:9-10 "9And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.
10And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God..."
And then it goes on to describe the Bride. God is comparing the Bride to a city. Otherwise, why would the angel say (paraphrased) "Let me show you the Bride of the Lamb", and then go show him a city? That doesn't make any sense. Not everything in Revelations is a physical manifestation. A lot of it is allegorical.
And even if it was describing heaven, and nothing unclean will enter into it, what's that have to do with purgatory? Don't you know that your spirit is already perfect when you get saved? It's your spirit that goes to heaven. "Flesh and blood will not inherit the kingdom of heaven." Flesh and blood are sinful and unclean. Our bodies wont make it to heaven. "To be absent from our bodies is to be present with the Lord".
I could go on for pages on Revelations 21. But I will post my teachings on my blog soon, and you can read it in its entirety there.
IHS,
"Matt 5:25-26 "you will be thrown into prison ...not be released until...paid the last penny"
You forgot the first part of that scripture: "Settle matters quickly with your adversary who is taking you to court."
So, no, it's not talking about purgatory. It's talking about when someone takes you to court. That's a looooooooong stretch for purgatory.
"1Cor 3:15 "If someone's work is burned..the person will be saved, BUT ONLY AS THROUGH FIRE"
That is talking about on the day of judgement (not before in purgatory) our deeds will be tested. "As only through fire"...I like the way the NIV explains it. "he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames." Which means, if you are saved, but you have no good deeds to show, you will be "barely saved". I know that sounds sophomoric, but that's the simplest way to explain it. Because in the previous verses it points out that our works will tested for quality...not that we will be "perfected". Whatever works we do here on earth will be judged.
"2Tim 1:16-18 (Saint Paul prays-asks God to have mercy on his dear friend, Onesiphorus who was dead)."
No, he prays for the HOUSE of Onesiphorus. Not for Onesiphorus himself.
"1 John 5:16-17 (Distinction made between deadly sins and ones that are not deadly)"
I'm not sure what that has to do with anything. But I do believe there are sins that lead to spiritual death. I believe blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is a major one.
"Matt 12:32(Particular sin not forgiven in this life or next implies some sins could be forgiven after death)"
Now that one intrigues me. But I still see no correlation between that and purgatory. It's just not there.
And I'll will post my findings on your passage from Revelation. It's a long one, so I will have to start another post.
A great website is www.catholic.com
I am late again for class! Got to go!
Have a blest weekend.
Prophet,
So you don't believe in God's judgement then? Catholics believe in only two options after death; Heaven and Hell.
It is the Judgement Seat of Christ where he sends us to Hell or Heaven where we are purged of our sins. This is Purgatory.
Matt 5:25-26 "you will be thrown into prison ...not be released until...paid the last penny"
Matt 12:32(Particular sin not forgiven in this life or next implies some sins could be forgiven after death)
1Cor 3:15 "If someone's work is burned..the person will be saved, BUT ONLY AS THROUGH FIRE"
2Tim 1:16-18 (Saint Paul prays-asks God to have mercy on his dear friend, Onesiphorus who was dead).
1Peter 3:18-20( Jesus preached to the "spirits in prison")
1 John 5:16-17 (Distinction made between deadly sins and ones that are not deadly)
Rev 21:27 (Nothing unclean will be allowed to enter Heaven)
All these scriptures point to the fact that Purgatory is a blessing and a gift from God and not a punishment. Nothing imperfect or unclean will enter Heaven. This is God cleansing us from our sins.
IHS,
Can you please cite where you got this information? I mean, other than the Catholic Church says so. Something along writings and such from that time period that point that out. I'm not sure where to begin looking for that information.
It is historical fact that the early Christians from the year 80ad into the 2nd, 3rd and 4th centuries prayed to the Saints especially to the Apostles who had died and the Virgin Mary for their intercession in Heaven.
So, The earliest Christians who were taught and discipled by the Apostles and their successors historically prayed to those saints who had already died and to their guardian angels.
You can pray to them for their intercession or not. It is not a mandated thing. I love the fact that I am doing what the earliest Christians did. I now pray to Mary for her intercession to Our Lord and also to St. Dominic who was the founder of the Order of Preachers. I love the fact I can ask for prayers from such holy and obediant Christians.
The Saints and Angels are alive and well in Heaven and they do care about us and offer prayers to the Lord on our behalf.
The Fact you don't want to be like the early christians, which is still carried by Catholics and Orthodox is not suprising STAR2 since your denomination was probably and division of a division of a division of a schism of another schism of another division. It is not surprising that so much Truth of the Christian faith has been lost on your group as it was in my parents church.
Purgatory doesn't exist. You have this physical life to do what you need to do, and become what you need to become.
It is appointed unto man once to die, and then the judgement.
Well Star2,
You are open to your own interpretation, but your interpretion is like usual not taking into account how the earliest Christians understood these scriptures and how they acted upon them. Sacred Tradition is the lense in which we see Scripture and how it makes sense.
Because you come from a tradition that has departed from Apostolic Tradition and any historical account you have no clue what the writers meant to say so you have to make it up yourself.
This is another reason why Catholicism is so attractive. Rather than listening to one person's interpretation, I get to listen to 2000 years of Christian witness.
To interpret scripture you must interpret it within the context of time, who it was spoken to, why it was spoken, the language and the Christian tradition of what it meant to those who were closest to that message.
When you sepparate yourself from the Church that Christ founded, it is no wonder why there are 50,000 denominations.
I wish the process was faster to become Catholic! I love the fact that so many seminarians at my school are following the same path that I am. All of us were evangelicals and none of us had any Catholic family. We all came to the Truth that the Catholic Church is who she claims to be "The Original and only church founded by Christ".
Protestantism and Evangelicalism is profoundly wounded, because you are not supposed to interpret scripture by yourself outside of the Church's hierarchy and secondly you have no right to be outside the Apostolic Church.
This is why I am never surprised when a new Christian group like yours', doesn't baptize in a trinitarian way. Outside the Catholic Church it is a slippery slope to heresy.
""Souls of the just are in the hand of God/..they shall shine/...shall DART about. Dead people don't DART, so they are alive with God."
Duh. But what does that have to do with being aware of anything? They're spirits. To be honest, I'm not sure if they're aware of what is going on in the physical world or not. The Bible doesn't say. Yes, Jesus talked to Moses and Elijah. But you notice that Jesus was transfigured first...into spiritual form. He didn't talk to them as a fleshly person. So it doesn't mean that Moses and Elijah were aware that they were even on earth.
But that still doesn't get to the original question. Dead saints do not pray for us. Their work is done.
ihs,
First, I do not believe the books of Wisdom and Tobit to be canonical; the Apocrypha / Deuterocanonical books teach many things that are not true and are not historically accurate.
Second, the passages you cited have nothing to do with those in heaven praying for us and the parable of the rich man and Lazarus is simply a parable: that is, a brief allegory that is used to teach a moral lesson; this story is not an actual incident which occurred. Also, there are some aspects of the account that do not seem to agree with the rest of Scripture. For example, can people in hell and people in heaven see each other and speak to each other?
The four living creatures, angels, and those in heaven do enjoy Gods presence and continually praise Him but they do not praise Him in order to earn merit. This gives not the least sanction to Romes dogma of our praying to saints. Nothing is said of them interceding for us, yet we are told to pray only to God (Rev. 19:10; Rev. 22:8, Rev. 22:9).
How is it that you were so emphatic about me being contextually accurate but you have not correctly interpreted these passages and you have neglected to answer my other request: can you share from scripture, the teaching of immaculate conception as well as the other extra biblical dogmas that you are soon to embrace?
IHS,
"Mt. 26:44 Jesus prayed a thrid time, saying the same thing AGAIN.
Lame.
Jesus was fighting with His flesh. His flesh didn't want to die, so the fleshly side of Jesus was asking God to please not ask Him to make Jesus do that.
There are many times when God tells me to do something I really don't want to. I'll ask Him numerous times to please not tell me to do that. But usually I give in to Him.
"Rev 4: 8 -repeat day and night,"Holy, Holy, holy is the Lord"
Lame.
That's praising God...not praying. I know they're spelled kinda the same, and even sound kinda the same, but they're not.
Nicely agrued star. Sorry, IHS, star put forth a better, more believeable agruement.
Re: Praying to dead saints
The RCC, uses Rev 8:3-4 to justify the practice of praying to dead Saints. The prayers that are offered up to God in these verses are the prayers that the saints prayed while they were here on the earth not while they are in Heaven.
God gives us a work to do while we are here on the earth. Part of that work is to pray for one another. Once He calls us home to Heaven our work has ended. Rev 14:13 tells us that: "...Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them."
Praying to dead saints who you think is in Heaven is a direct violationg of what Jesus taught. He taught His disciples to pray to God the Father while He was still on the earth (Luke 11:1-2) and to God the Father in His name after He went back to Heaven (John 14:13, John 16:23).
You cannot find any scripture to support that we are to pray to dead saints. Once believers go to Heaven their work is finished. (Rev 14:13)
God does not hear your prayers if you pray any other way than to God the Father in Jesus' name.
The RCC also justifies praying to dead saints because Jesus talked with Lazarus and Moses and Elijah.
Re:about Jesus calling Lazarus from the dead (John 11:1-44)
Jesus said John 5:21, "For as the Father raised up the dead, and quickeneth them, even so the Son quickeneth whom he will" . "quickeneth" here means "to give life to"
Jesus is our example. He is not showing that we can talk to the dead but that He has power over death.
God the Father answered Jesus' command for Lazarus to come forth because of John 5:21.
Re: About Jesus talking with Elijah and Moses (Matt 17:1-9)
This account was not to show us that we could talk with those who had already gone to Heaven. Jesus was transfigured; His earthly body transformed into His heavenly body. Jesus was seen by Peter, James and John in His glorified body (2 Pet 1:18). He was not asking them to pray for anything. They were discussing the Father's will in regard to Jesus dying for the sins of mankind.
Jesus is our example. He was talking with Elijah and Moses in His glorified (heavenly) body not His earthly body.
You to will be able to talk with Moses, Elijah, Mary, the disciples, etc or your family and friends who preceded you in death to Heaven when you go to Heaven but not here on the earth.
You better tell Jesus and those in Heaven to stop their repetitive prayer then!
Mt. 26:44 Jesus prayed a thrid time, saying the same thing AGAIN.
Rev 4: 8 -repeat day and night,"Holy, Holy, holy is the Lord"
The key thing with prayer is to pray sincerely and with a loving heart. Any prayer that is repetitive or just a single prayer that does not come from the heart and is not sincere is not effective.
First proving that those who have died are still aware of the Living:
Wisdom: "Souls of the just are in the hand of God/..they shall shine/...shall DART about. Dead people don't DART, so they are alive with God.
Matt 17:1-5 the Transfiguration of Christ where Jesus speaks to Moses and Elijah(who had already physically died so their spirits are alive and well and can speak to Jesus)Jesus is praying and conversing with Moses and Elijah. Proving that those who die in the friendship of God can intercede for us and we can talk to them.
mark 12:26-27" God of Abraham.. Isaac...Jacob..not God of the DEAD but of the LIVING.
Rev: 7:15 "They stand before God's throne/ and worship Him day and night" So, the Saints in Heaven worship God.
Luke 16:19-30 (The Departed Rich man who died, now wants to intercede for brothers) Abraham and the Departed Rich man have a conversation AND YET THEY ARE DEAD. So the dead do want to help us.
Those who die in the friendship of God are alive, after they physically die. Fact.
The Saints & Angels in Heaven are aware of what's happening on the Earth and they pray for us.
Tobit 12:12-15 (Angel presents Tobit and Sarah's prayer to God)
Rev: 5:8 the four living creatures and the twenty four elders(HUMANS) fell down before the Lamb. Each elder held a harp and gold bowls filled with incense, which are the prayers of the Holy ones(That's us)."
Rev 6:9-11 The Martyrs under altar of God want EARTHLY VINDICATION. Sounds like they know what's going on and they are interceding to God.
The body of Christ cannot be sepparated by physical death. The Catholic and Orthodox understanding of the Communion of Saints is that we are one body of Christ, those on the earth and in Heaven. Those in Heaven do pray for us, Angels and the Cloud of witnesses and the elders bring our prayers through interceding for us to God.
We are not told we have to ask the Saints or Angels in Heaven for their intercession, but it is a pious practice of faith because these Angels and Humans are alive in Christ. They are aware of what is going on Earth, they bring bowlfouls of prayers to God of God's people. They are also closer to the throne of God and their prayers are more effective. This is no different than asking a friend of yours' to pray for you. All Saints whether in Heaven or on Earth can pray for us.
IHS
After Jesus observed His last passover with His disciples and before He was arrested in the Garden, He prayed to His Heavenly Father for His disciples. In His prayer He said to His Father, "Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth." (John 17:17)
Jesus said that the Word of God was truth and prayed that the Father would santify those that believe on Him with that truth. Thus, The Word of God establishes what truth is. Any extra-biblical teaching that goes against the teaching in the Word of God is heretical. It is to be rejected no matter who wrote it and how close he was to the disciples in personally knowing them and being taught by them.
2 Timothy 3:16-17 says that "All scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: so that the man of God may be perfect and thorougly furnished unto all good works."
According to 2 Timothy 3:16-17, the Word of God is all any believer needs in order to do the work that God has for him/her to do.
How you misinster to someone will depend on what you believe the scripture teaches. If what you believe does not align itself with the Word of God then you will be leading people astray from God's truth. Many times that misinformation, advice, or whatever you teach or say can result in a person losing out on eternal life, or practicing a sin that jepordizes or negatively affects their relationship with God.
If you are really wanting to know the truth of God's Word then I encourage you to turn to God and seek Him for that truth. Jesus told His disciples the following:
John 14:26 - "But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you."
John 16:13 - "Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come."
The RCC will try to tell you that those scriptures applied only to the disciples and not to us today. That is not true. The Apostle John said to the saints he wrote his first epistle to the following:
1 John 2:27 - "But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him."
God wants you to understand His Word. He wants you to live your life according to it. He wants you to teach it accurately. He wants you to minister its truths to the people He brings your way.
For Christ's sake, for your sake, and for the sake of the people you minister the Word of God to, seek God for the understanding of His Word and not man.
Good discussion everyone....
"I asked that question to my mentor. You must confess all mortal sins to a priest."
Hmm...nope. Not in the Bible. But it does say "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." It appears that the Catholics have improperly inserted the words "to a priest" to the end of the phrase "If we confess our sins..."
Another fine example of Catholic corruption of the Word.
First, we are never told in the Bible whether anyone else in heaven even hears us. Can you post a passage of scripture that demonstrates someone in heaven praying for someone on earth or someone on earth praying to someone other than to the Lord in heaven? From what I have read . . . God alone answers our prayers.
Second, in Luke 1:47, Mary calls God her (Savior). Savior from what? A sinless person does not need a Savior. Sinners need a Savior. Since Mary acknowledged that God was her Savior, we also can conclude that she was acknowledging herself to be a sinner. Right . . . ?
The Roman Catholic Church claims that Mary was saved from sin differently from everyone else--that she was saved from sin through the immaculate conception (her being conceived free of sin). But is this teaching scriptural? The answer is a resounding . . . NO. This flies in direct opposition to Romans 3:10-23 (there is none righteous, no, not one) and Romans 5:12 (all have sinned) and countless other passages that stress this same fact.
So, again, only God can hear and answer our prayers. The Bible nowhere instructs Christians to pray through intermediaries or to petition saints or Mary (in Heaven) for their prayers. Did you know that for every one (praise to God) in the rosary, there are 10 praises to Mary! If this is not repetitious praying . . . I do not know what is.
(If only you went so far to look at things contextually, you would understand the bible a whole lot better)
I have taken this opportunity to contextually share Matthew 6:6-8 as you desired; so, can you now contextually share with me (from the pages of scripture), the teaching of the immaculate conception . . . along with the other extra biblical teachings that you are so eagerly and shortly to embrace?
Thanks
ihs,
It was for the sake of brevity that I did not give a detailed response to msn . . . I assumed that he was familiar with Matthew 6:6-8 which councils us not to pray as the heathen do . . . so, yes I am aware of its context.
Well, since you desire a contextually lengthy response, here it is:
Matthew 6:6; But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.
(Enter into thy closet - That is, do it with as much secrecy as one possibly can; not to be seen of men)
Matthew 6:7; But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.
(The vain and heathenish repetitions which we are here warned against are still practiced today; many are still, perhaps, unconsciously imitating similar prayers. This verse emphasizes vain repetitions NOT quotations from heathen prayers . . . so, again, prayers are but vain repetitions, if they are not the language of the heart)
Matthew 6:8; Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.
(Omniscient as he is, he cannot be informed of any thing which he does not already know; he is always willing to answer our prayers according to his will)
In the RCC, not only is it (repetitious praying) carried to a shameless extent, but, the very prayer which our Lord gave as an antidote to vain repetitions is the most abused to this superstitious end; that is (in the number of times it is repeated in order to earn merit). Is not this just that characteristic feature of heathen devotion which our Lord here condemns? Although praying much and using the same words at times, is not here condemned, however, it is the daily habitual repetitious prayers that I am referring to . . . for example, the rosary:
While the first part of the Hail Mary is almost a direct quotation from Luke 1:28, there is no scriptural basis for (1) praying to Mary, (2) addressing her as (holy) Mary:
IHS,
" just as you should know that my call to become Catholic is in an effort to grow closer to Christ."
Interesting. That's why I'm NOT a Catholic. Because I want to grow closer to God in His truth, not in the Pope's truth.
IHS, "...the new path I am discovering."
The Glories of Mary by Liguori:
The Lord revealed to St. Catherine of Sienna, as we read in Blosius, that he, in his goodness, had granted to Mary, from love to his only begotten Son, whose mother she is, that not even one sinner, who commends himself devoutly to her, should be the prey of hell. [end quote]
We must be careful what new path we discover, lest we find ourselves straying from the old path of biblical truth like Catherine of Sienna. To walk the road to Rome, one must stumble from "All scripture...is profitable."
"And now, brethren, I commend you to God, and to the word of his grace, which is able to build you up, and to give you an inheritance among all them which are sanctified" (Ac 20:32).
star,
"Yes, Prophet it is sad. I wonder what is it that we are doing wrong or are we missing when we preached the gospel?"
What went wrong? Religious indoctrination. A lot like what the Catholic Church is involved in. Someone said it was supposed to be this way, regardless of what the Scriptures said, and that's the way it is taught.
ihs, I agree and you're sounding a whole lot more like the ihs I used to post with, hope you have a good class tonight, believer
ihs, but once again you're saying that God's grace is a tangible substance as opposed to the undeserved favor of God. If it's undeserved it means there is nothing we can do to deserve it.
Sorry, I got to go to Class. I'm late! Thanks for this last, more cordial discussion.
God bless.
So are you saying that we don't receive Grace by reading the bible, taking communion, getting baptized, going to church?
Receiving God's grace by doing the will of God is very biblical.
ihs, it may be in the catechism, but it's sure not in the Bible!
I asked that question to my mentor. You must confess all mortal sins to a priest IF they are available and you have no obstacles getting to them. Confession to the Priest is the ordinary form. However, if you can't get to a Priest because you are about to die then you can confess it straight to God and if your heart is sorrowful then you will be saved. It's in the catechism.
God gave us the sacraments as tools to convey Grace, but God is not bound to them. His mercy and justice is there for us at all times no matter what our circumstances. He is always and everywhere ready to save us!
ihs, plus you act as if grace is a tangible substance when scripturally grace is simply God's undeserved favor that was fleshed out in the death of His Son, Jesus Christ on the Cross at Calvary.
Also, I made the first Neo-nazi comment before msnchris took the comparison way further and more funnier I might add.
We were discussing faith and grace in ephesians and now part of my post is gone. It looks like my post has been clipped off 2/3rds of my message. Happy to re-discuss faith and grace if you had not read it before it was clipped off.
ihs, and you don't see those things you listed as being a form of works which are used to determine if you will go to heaven or spend time in purgatory which by the way there is no biblical support for and in some cases for instance dying with an unconfessed to a priest mortal sin on your soul going to hell?
Grace is infused to us by the Sacraments, but not by the Sacraments alone. Going to confession, going to Mass, reading the bible, praying to God, receiving the Eucharist all convey Grace. The things we do either fill us with Grace from God, or the things we do take away that Grace.
Going to a Praise and Worship retreat infuses Grace to us. The more we live in communion with Christ, the more Grace is infused into us. This is not a works mentality at all, but a perfect response to that gift which is full acceptance.
Yes, Purgatory from what I know is a real place and it is only for those who are going to Heaven who are not perfected in Christ. Many many holy people go straight to Heaven, many people will still have attachments to sin before they die and that must be purged by the loving fire of Christ. Again, purgatory re-emphasizes the mercy of God and the love for us and that it is all His love and Grace that get us into Heaven.
ihs, although catholics believe in grace they also teach it is works, be it receiving the sacraments or other good works that will inevitably determine ones final destiny.
I am sorry if I am coming off as arrogant as you say. I am just sincerely excited on the new path I am discovering.
Please understand that I am a lot younger than you and many others so sometimes my youthful passion for the Lord could come across at times as a "Smarty Pants".
I just want everyone to know the joy I have found in Christ in becoming Catholic. I will try to tone it down.
ihs, you better review what catholics really believe and teach about purgatory because unless there has been a huge departure from the teaching I received as a catholic in both grade school and high school seminary purgatory is a real place for those who can not go directly into heaven, but who are not condemned to hell.
ihs, but why all the bitterness and arrogance?
Mormons don't believe in Purgatory. Catholics do. Mormons believe they can baptize people who are already dead, Catholic don't. Catholics believe when you die it is either Heaven or Hell. Purgatory is the judgement seat of Christ where his love purges any uncleanliness of sin from us through the merits of His death and resurrection. Mormons believe that it is not by Grace we are saved. They believe if you live a good life you can enter into heaven regardless of religion. Catholics reject this.
Any other comparisons?
I'm sorry you left the church. I know from reading many of your past posts that you love the Lord and live and serve Him. No one can say you are not serving to your fullness.
I have no problem you being a Baptist, as most of my family is, just as you should know that my call to become Catholic is in an effort to grow closer to Christ.
ihs, I left the catholic church as a result of becoming a Christian as many former catholics did! Plus, you still have not responded to all the practices of the mormons that are very similar to those of the catholic church such as the hiearchy issue, paying and praying souls out of purgatory as compared to the mormons baptizing by proxy dead people into heaven, and most importantly works salvation.
IHS, "Be ware of the Devil..."
The Glories of Mary by Liguori:
Four years having past, a soul from purgatory one day appeared to her, and said, "Sister Catherine, how unhappy is my fate! you commend to God the souls of all those who die, and for my soul alone you have had no pity." "And who are you?" said the servant of God. "I am," answered she, "that poor Mary who died in the cave."
"How! are you saved?" exclaimed sister Catherine. "Yes, I am saved," she said, "by the mercy of the Virgin Mary. "And how? "When I saw death drawing near, finding myself laden with sins, and abandoned by all, I turned to the mother of God and said to her, Lady, thou art the refuge of the abandoned, behold me at this hour deserted by all; thou art my only hope, thou alone canst help me; have pity on me. The holy Virgin obtained for me the grace of making an act of contrition; I died and am saved... [End quote]
Yes, be ware of the Devil. "And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables" (2 Ti 4:4). The road to Rome is bricked with a great deal of biblical abandonment.
Star2,
Thanks be to God you were properly baptized. We have proof that the early Christians in the first century were baptized in the trinitarian way. Some only baptized in the name of Jesus because of what Peter said in Acts, but that was because those Christians had yet to read or hear where Jesus told them how to baptize specifically. Jesus said how to specifically how to baptize, and Peter was saying generally not as a formal procedure. You see, the Catholic Church had not compiled the bible for us yet and many churches didn't have all the letters of the New Testament yet.
By the end of the first century while the Apostle John was still alive all Christians were baptized in the trinitarian way.
You make huge mistakes Star2 when you don't read the Bible as a whole and you take parts and bits out of context. The Apostolic and Bible supports the baptism in the trinitarian format alone, and it is Sacred Tradition that we know Peter was not giving the formula on how to be baptized, but Jesus was.
ihs, plus as I told chris the Our Father was a model of how to pray and not necessarily a prayer to be prayed. And I can honestly say I have never prayed the same prayer twice other than when I was in a church that had the reciting of the Lord's Prayer or a responsive reading as part of their service.
ihs, are you saying you're are chris since it was chris who posted the neo-nazi idea, if so that would make you a fraud and liar.
Online,
I read your post to MsnChris, but I would like to answer this myself. You said to Chris that Jesus said not to be repetitive in our prayers it is the heart that is most important.
You prove another point of why I'm converting to Catholicism. CONTEXT! If you bothered to look at the context you would have noticed that Jesus wasn't saying this to people who were praying to God like the Jews did repetitiously to God in the Psalms, but Jesus was talking about people who were praying repetitively to a false God BAAL!
If only you went so far to look at things contextually, you would understant the bible a whole lot better. Yes, praying repetitively to a false god is useless no matter how many words they say. Good point Jesus, since there is only one TRUE God.
Did Jesus give the Our Father to pray only once? Did Jesus Give us the Psalms only to be prayed once? Have you ever asked God for the same thing more than once? Have you ever prayed repetitively to God how much you love Him?
Repetitive prayer is great if it is to the ONE TRUE God and is done with your heart and not done in a rote manner!
When I was water baptised, I was baptised in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost.
Scripture makes it very plain, though, that water baptism is done only in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ(the Son). That was the practice of the early Church. Nowhere in scripture will you find that water baptism was done in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. To do so is not scriptural. However, if a believer was baptised in that way God still receives the baptism since He looks at the heart of the believer and not the words spoken out of ignorance or a lack of understanding of the Word of God.
Star2,
I would be happy to tell you my story of how I became a Christian, but first go get properly baptized!
Trinitarian Christians get baptized one way and one way only! This is just another example of why "NO PROPHESY OF SCRIPTURE IS OPEN FOR PERSONAL INTERPRETATION".
Believer,
Then you didn't read my post about Evangelicalism and NeoNazi's.
Mormonism does have a hierarchy even close to the Catholic Church; President and Quorum of 12. In their beginning people were attracted to it because there was literally no hierarchy. Then they brought in Bishop, Priest, Deacon, elder close to 50 years later and many other titles to copy both Catholic and Protestant Denomination since Mormons are a bogus religion. Every church has a hierarchy of sorts so your point is mute. The Catholic Church, Orthodox, Episcopal have Bishop, Priest and Deacon, Methodists and Lutherans have Bishop, Elder, Deacon and the Presbyterians and the Reformed have elders and some have deacons.
If you are going to make a point, at least make a somewhat intelligent one. Someone who has education like you have, shouldn't be offering analogies that can be reduced so quickly.
Remember, Mormonism was started by a Protestant Joseph Smith and the Mormon religion was founded primarily by Brigham Young and his followers who were all PROTESTANTS!
Unitarians, Jehovah Witnesses were all founded by Protestants.
When people left the Catholic Church, they were still christian at least!
prophet, are you going to watch Perry Stone's webcast tonight? I have to work tonight so I won't watch it until next week when he make the viewing of it available on his website.
Have you gotten a word from the Lord yet about Wilkerson's vision regarding to the financial hardtimes America will experience sometime in the next 6 months?
I prayed about it some last night.
Yes, Prophet it is sad. I wonder what is it that we are doing wrong or are we missing when we preached the gospel?
star,
And as you see in Acts, that many times salvation, baptism of water, and the baptism of the Holy Spirit occured at the same time. In today's church, we are saved, then a year later we get baptized in water, then five years later we are baptized int he Holy Spirit.
It's sad, really.
Please note the following
1) I am a trinitarian. I believe in God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost and these three are one.
1 John 5:7 - "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one."
John 1:1 - In the beginning was the Word, the Word was with God, and the Word was God."
2) Do not accuse me of believing that a believer who has not been baptized in the Holy Ghost with the evidence of speaking in other tongues does not have the indwelling presence of the Holy Ghost.
After Jesus had risen from the dead and appeared to His disciples, one of the things He said unto them was, "Receive ye the Holy Ghost" (John 20:22). He also told them before he ascended into Heaven that they were to tarry in Jerusalem until they received the promise of the Father which was to be baptized with the Holy Ghost (Acts 1:5).
To be baptised with the Holy Ghost is to be filled with the Holy Ghost.
They had the indwelling presence of the Holy Ghost before they were filled with the Holy Ghost (baptized with the Holy Ghost).
I believe that at conversion, when a person believes on the Lord Jesus Christ and receives Him into their heart as Savior and Lord, that he is indwelt by the Holy Ghost but not filled with the Holy Ghost. The believer doesn't become filled with the Holy Ghost until he is baptized in the Holy Ghost.
Having the indwelling presence of the Holy Ghost is different than being filled with the Holy Ghost.
chris, the only problem is that the true Lord's Prayer begins in John 17 and what most people call the Lord's Prayer is really a model for how we should pray as opposed to what we should pray. And to be honest these repetitive prayers are one thing I don't think I'll ever miss as a result of leaving the catholic church.
ihs, I see you have somehow neglected to respond to my post with regards to the mormons being far more in synch with the catholic church than evangelical churches and more specifically Southern Baptists, I wonder why that is.
chris, if they would have asked my son at the age of 5 he could have told them much about Jesus as well and he had never heard of the rosary at that time in his life, so your point is? Plus by the age of 7 he had accepted Christ as His Savior and Lord and had been baptized and read the Chronicles of Narnia, so once again your point is?
IHS
You have said on another article, "Second Episcopal Diocese Breaks from National Church", that you have been a Christian all your life. Please explain.
Subject of post: Baptism in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, three separate baptisms.
Part 1
Matthew 28:19 - "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:"
After Jesus had risen from the dead He appeared unto His disciples. he rebuked them for theior unbelief and hardness of heart (Mark 16:14), He commissioned to go into all the world and preach the gospel (Mark 16:15), to preach repentance and remission of sins in His name (Luke 24:47), to teach them to observe all that He has commanded (Matt 28:20), and to baptised them (believers) in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost (Matt 28:19).
Jesus also openned to the disciples the understanding of the scripture (Luke 24:49).
Jesus breathed on them and said, "Receive ye the Holy Ghost". (John 20:22)
Before Jesus ascended into Heaven He told them to tarry in Jerusalem until they received the promise of the Father, which was to be baptised with the Holy Ghost. (Luke 24:29, Acts 1:5)
Acts 1:4-5
4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.
5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
Part 2
The baptism of John was a baptism of repentance for the remission of sin. He called people to repentance and those who chose to repent were water baptised by him.
Jesus told His disciples to preach repentance and the remission of sins in His name to all nations (Luke 24:47). Scripture tells us that on the day of Pentecost, the disciples, and other believers, including Mary, the mother of Jesus, altogether approximately 120 believers, were baptised in the Holy Ghost. They were filled with the Holy Ghost, and spoke with other tongues (languages unknown to them) as the Spirit gave them utterance.
Devout Jews living in Jerusalem from many different nations heard the believers speaking in languages unknown to them about the wonderous works of God. Many wondered what it meant and others mocked saying that these believers were drunk.
Part 3
Peter stood up among the disciples and began to preach Jesus Christ. These devout Jews heard the gosple and wanted to know what they must do (Acts 2:37). "Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." (Act 2:38)
Note here that they were commanded to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins. This baptism was a water baptism. We can deduce this from Acts 10:47-48. Peter, after he preached the gospel of Jesus Christ to Cornelius, his kinfolks, and his closest friends, they began to speak in other tongues and glorified God (indicating that they had received the gift of the Holy Ghost) said "Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord." (Acts 10:47-48)
Also note that speaking in other tongues was an indication that the believer had received the Holy Ghost (Acts 10:47, 8:15)/received the gift of the Holy Ghost (Acts 10:45)/was filled with the Holy Ghost (acts 2:5)/baptized with the Holy Ghost (Acts 1:5). "received the Holy Ghost/received the gift of the Holy Ghost/was filled with the Holy Ghost/baptized with the Holy Ghost are all phrases that were used in identifying the event that resulted in believers speaking in other tongues.
Part 4
It is very clear from scripture that water baptism is a separate event from baptism in the Holy Ghost and that water baptism is done in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ only (Acts 1:5, Acts 2:38, Acts 8:12,15,16, Acts 10:44-48, Acts 19:1-6).
Who baptises a believer with the Holy Ghost? According to John the Baptist it is Jesus Christ.
Mark 1:8 -"I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost."
Matthew 3:11 - "I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:"
If water baptism, which is a baptism done in the name of Jesus Christ (the Son)is a separate event from a baptism with the Holy Ghost then the baptism of the Father is also a separate event from the other two.
What is the baptism of the Father? I am not completely certain at this point for the scripture never comes right out and identifies it as it has for the baptism in the name of the Son and the baptism of the Holy Ghost.
msn,
Jesus taught us not to use repetitious prayers . . . praying from the heart is what counts.
Do not worry about the end times? I've heard that many times. And every single time it was from some immature Christian who wouldn't understand the scriptures, and so said it was all a bunch of hooey. But, yes we are to not worry (emphasis on the word "worry") about the end times. But we are to know the signs and seasons of the end times. We are to understand what is to come. So that we will not be caught unaware. Those who do not, will be swept away by false teachings and false christs. Because they won't know what's really going on. They won't know the truth.
ihs,(Worrying about the end times is actually unbibilical)
Having a discussion about the end times is not the same as worrying . . . the Lord has given us a detailed account about the end times in his Word. As a matter of fact, Jesus pronounces a blessing to all those who read and keep the words that have been written in the book of Revelation.
"Perry STone, THE VOICE OF EVANGELISM, NOT! This guy is a Charlatan!"
Many true Christians have been saying the same thing about the Pope for years. But still, many immature people still flock to him, despite the unscrptural teachings he promotes.
msn,
Let EvanCal know that he is in our prayers . . .
Prophet and Star2,
Perry STone, THE VOICE OF EVANGELISM, NOT! This guy is a Charlatan! You can learn a lot from a person by visiting their website! This guy is all about the money! He is all about the "End Times", like Hal Lindsey and Benny Hinn and Pastor Hagee. They are all the same $$$$$$!
Just look at their webpages, they have more stuff to sell than Amazon.com! These so called Pastors are exactly what the bible talks about; False Prophets and wolves in sheep's clothing.
This strand of Evangelicalism is a poor Characature of the real thing where Pastors are not millionaires, and not making tons of money on end times, and rather are helping people to a personal relationship with Jesus Christ.
I'll give all of you "End times" fans something for free. Believe in Jesus, live your life for Jesus, love Jesus through your actions and words and by Grace you will be saved! You don't need to read any book outside of the Bible on the end times, just know it is coming and all you need to do is get yourself right with God and evangelize others. Worrying about the end times is actually unbibilical!
I will pray for EvanCal. Give him my best!
To all of you,
Evancal has been very sick. He was getting better, so he tried to do a mission to Costa Rica with his church. While on mission he had another stroke. He came back home and is doing much better. The doctors told him that the stress from his work as an Evangelist/pastor and always doing for others and not taking care of himself has created this situation.
He hasn't responded to my last two emails, but his wife emailed me to say that he is resting well and will get to me and others who have been emailing him.
This man is truly a wonderful Saint, who has worked tirelessly for God's people. Let us pray for him and his family, through Christ OUr Lord.
Believer,
Actually, another misconception. The Hail Mary is rarely invoked at any other time than with the Rosary. The Hail Mary and the Rosary focuses on her womb which will bear the Son of God and it focuses on how God made her full of Grace to conceive God incarnate.
The most common prayer of the Catholic Church would be the Our Father First, then the Glory Be and then the Psalms. All these prayers are prayed everyday and everywhere in the Holy Mass, Liturgy of the Hours.
The Hail Mary is a common prayer, but these other prayers are said more often without comparison.
Something interesting to note, a group of kids from a public school here in Washington State were taken on a field trip to learn about the Jewish religion and the Christian religion. They asked one of the kids in the class if he could tell the teacher and the other students about Jesus. He went and told about Jesus' life with such detail everyone was impressed. They asked how did he know all this at the age of 10, and he responded by saying that his family has said the Rosary with him since he was 5 years old so he knew by constant repetition all the major moments of Christ life, death and resurrection.
Not only did he know of all the major events, but he said to the teacher the reason why he remembered so much is because his parents taught him to love Jesus so much that knowing Jesus through the Scriptural Rosary was the best way to have a personal relationship with Jesus.
Maybe Protestants should get a Rosary for their kids! Ignorance of Scripture is ignorance of Christ-St. Jerome.
Either have I.
star2, I've not heard from him either.
star2,
I have not heard anything about EvanCal nor his condition . . .
msnchris70, IHS, Online4Him, believer, Prophet, wbmoore
Have any one of you heard from EvanCal since he had his heart attack/stroke awhile back and left to have medical tests done?
star,
Yes. Do so. That's why I'm fasting tomorrow. I want to hear from God about this.
Prophet - Yes, I go your email. I read it. I need to pray about it.
star,
David Wilkerson. I emailed you the message. I hope I got your address right.
It's been a very tough road. But I am moving forward. Step by step I am winning the battle over complacency, fear, doubt, and sin. But only through God's Spirit. I made a covenant with God today. To forsake all, if necessary, for the Kingdom. And I am setting tomorrow aside for a fast, to seek God like I've never sought Him before. There's a fire in my bones that cannot be quenched, and it's burning me up. I've found that it hurts less if I don't fight it. LOL. At least, it doesn't last as long. :-) I'd rather go through the fire once, and learn what I need to learn, grow where I need to grow. Then to have to go through it twice, or three times before it gets past my stubborn pride...amen?
I'm not "super-spiritual". I'm just starving for God's Spirit, and His moving in my life. "Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they will be filled."
Prophet
>>>that America's downfall will be a financial one.<<<
I wouldn't be surprised since money is america's golden calf.
Have you been keeping up with Perry Stone's prophecies in regard to what will happen to America? He usually does it thru his online webcast. He is having one tomorrow night (Thurs) starting at 7pm ET. I don't know what he will talk about this time.
Prophet - who is this prophet you are referring to? Does he have a website where he places his prphecies?
Prophet - Have you surrendered yet to the call that God has on your life? Based on what you have written, it sounds like you have or are working towards that. Email me and let me know what has been going on in your life. I haven't heard from you in way too long.
But the prophet did say that God will be a wall of fire about us (Christians).. And the glory in the midst of us!
star,
No. Financial ruin. It will begin in europe, mideast, or africa. Then mexico will go under, which will cause the US economy to crash. I do not speak this on my own accord, but spoken by another prophet. It bears witness with what God has been telling me for about 18 months...that America's downfall will be a financial one. Troops will be brought home to quell the unrest.
Darkness is coming upon the earth. We need not fear. Look to Jesus, walk in obedience to Him, He will see you through. Jesus is the author and finisher of your faith.
Prophet - what I wrote below, am I correct, somewhat correct, or did I miss your point altogether?
msnchris70 - Go back and re-read what Prophet wrote. He is setting no dates for the return of Christ, the rapture of the Chruch, what he is talking about, it seems to me, is that there is going to be one or more terrorist attack(s) on American soil pretty soon, within the next 6 months. If the attack is chemical or biological in nature or a dirty bomb attack, then, if you are in the areas where this happens then God will protect you if you are right with God and living for Him.
Psalm 91:1-10
1 He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty.
2 I will say of the LORD, He is my refuge and my fortress: my God; in him will I trust.
3 Surely he shall deliver thee from the snare of the fowler, and from the noisome pestilence.
4 He shall cover thee with his feathers, and under his wings shalt thou trust: his truth shall be thy shield and buckler.
5 Thou shalt not be afraid for the terror by night; nor for the arrow that flieth by day;
6 Nor for the pestilence that walketh in darkness; nor for the destruction that wasteth at noonday.
7 A thousand shall fall at thy side, and ten thousand at thy right hand; but it shall not come nigh thee.
8 Only with thine eyes shalt thou behold and see the reward of the wicked.
9 Because thou hast made the LORD, which is my refuge, even the most High, thy habitation;
10 There shall no evil befall thee, neither shall any plague come nigh thy dwelling.
2That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:
3Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
4And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
5For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
6Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
7But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
8But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
9The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
10But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
msn,
(Like so many Protestants before you, you too will get this date wrong . . .)
Umm, Prophet never set a date in his post, so why are you trying to make it sound as if he did? Maybe you can enlighten us on the last days . . . care to teach us?
chris, then why are more feast days set aside to worship Mary than there are to worship Christ and why is the hail Mary the most repeated prayer in the rosary if not the church and why when I received my penance from the priest was I told to say more hail Mary's than any other prayer. Please read your own papers which spoke of the move by some in the catholic church to raise her up as equal to Christ and the Vatican ruled not to do it. And if people were truly excommunicated for worshipping Mary and they were honest you'd lose a bunch of catholics. Plus your need to insult people reveals the arrogance of those in the catholic church who see the rest of Christians as second class as best, another revealing fact that shows the catholic church is not nor has it ever been the one true church.
Prophet,
So time is up, eh? The last days? Like so many Protestants before you, you too will get this date wrong but I'm sure your denomination will sell lots of books on it! Last time I read the bible it says we should be anxious of nothing and that we should not estimate when the last day will be, but I guess to a Ala Carte Bible Believing Protestant you forgot to read that passage.
Believer,
Last time I checked Co-redemptrix or Co-Mediatrix or whatever title you choose does not mean co-equal it does not make her divine and nor does it make her someone to worship. These are theological titles which are obviously above your pay grade in theological understanding on why these titles only convey the importance of her cooperation. I know you know this, but you still choose to push the error of Mary worship. You see, if you finally admit that we do not and we only honor her like Jesus did, then you would realize that you are part of a man made Tradition that leads you away from Christ.
Mary was human, not divine and should never be worshipped. If someone worships the virgin Mary, they are automatically excommunicated. We should only venerate and honor her. Jesus honored His mother, so should we!
Sorry gentlemen. I have to go. I've got the call.
Something is going to happen within the next six months that's going to turn America on it's ear. The last days are upon us. And I need to ready myself for the work that God has for me. It's going to be hard on all of us, but remain faithful, and endure even unto death. Though a thousand fall at your right hand, and ten thousand on your left, it will not come upon you. If you remain faithful.
I've enjoyed the discussions, but they are wasted words. Those who will not hear, will not hear. Their hearts are hardened to God's voice. Shake the dust from your feet and move on to the next. There are people who want to hear the truth. Tell it to them. The will hear and run with it. Do not cast your pearls before the pigs anymore. Time is short. What are you willing to give up for Him? Anything less than everything is much too less.
"Yes, worshipping Mary or any idol is a sin."
Then why do so many Catholics do that?
"...as you need to know the Apostolic Tradition to fill in the blanks from Scripture."
The only blanks in Scripture are self-made ones created by the Catholic Church in order to create false doctrine.
"Luther, Zwingli, Calvin, Smith, Knox would have had you drawn and quartered for these words against trinitarian baptism."
If that were true, then I wouldn't care. They wouldn't be Christians, would they. So their opinion wouldn't matter.
msnchris,
"Thank you for illustrating why so many people from evangelical Christianity convert to Catholic Christianity."
Try not to let your Catholic arrogance show through so much. Check your numbers. There's as many, if not more, people switching from Catholicism to Protestantism as there are the other way around. All they are doing is going from one denomination to another.
Who is Jesus? God. Who is God? Jesus.
See, you fail to realize the unity of the trinity. God and Jesus are the same. Jesus is simply the physical manifestation of God. The first chapter of John points that out rather explicitly.
Question: Who created the world? God? Or Jesus?
Answer: Yes.
Quit getting so tied up in preprogrammed indoctrination, and study the scriptures for a change.
chris, and if you throw in the coredemptrix view that many in the catholic church have with regards to Mary being equal to Christ you could say many catholics hold a polytheistic view so the mormons and you catholics have a lot in common and once again mormons like catholics promote and believe in works salvation.
chris, my post was in response to ihs who attempted to compare evangelicals to mormons and so I simply and factually pointed out how in reality that many of the beliefs of the mormons are far more similar to catholic beliefs than they are to biblical beliefs held by evangelical Christians and specifically Southern Baptists.
Online,
Maybe I missed one of your posts. If I did not answer a specific question, then I apologize for missing it. Mea Culpa.
You may email any question to msnchris70@hotmail.com
Forgivensinner,
You are right, it does depend on how you define Saints. Good for you to point this out, but with some of these fundamentalists on this board their understanding of deep theological underpinnings of the original Christian faith are on the surface at best.
Believer,
I love the fact you try and compare LDS to Catholicism. You just showed in one line your lack of thought, education and ability to discern. You compare Christians who believe in one God in three persons, to a group of Polytheists who believe in many gods and Jesus is not God.
It would be as silly for me to compare Baptists with Neo-Nazi's since they both believed in slavery, they both sepparated from their main branch because of their insistance that whites should be over blacks, they are loosely organized, have no hierarchy, and think they have a direct line to God.
Hmmm.
Yes, worshipping Mary or any idol is a sin. Glad to see you are still stuck on this one. It shows you do no academic or theological research. Am I surprised? Not in the least. Ignorance is your confidence.
Prophet,
Thank you for illustrating why so many people from evangelical Christianity convert to Catholic Christianity. "Whether you baptize by the name of Jesus or the trinitarian way it's all the same" you said. It is not, and this is why it is such a slippery slope to heresy and blasphemy in Protestant groups. NO ONE IS WILLING TO SAY that one is right or wrong.
Luther, Zwingli, Calvin, Smith, Knox would have had you drawn and quartered for these words against trinitarian baptism. Non Trinitarian baptism are relatively new in the last 100 years. This is another example of why the Bible alone is so insufficient, as you need to know the Apostolic Tradition to fill in the blanks from Scripture.
Prophet wrote: "Saints don't pray for us."
I believe this depends on your definition of a "saint". ;-)
Whether you baptize in the name of Jesus, or in the name of the Father, of the Son, and the Holy Ghost. It's all the same. Jesus is God.
But there are three baptisms though. Baptism of water. Baptism of the Holy Ghost. And baptism of fire.
Worhipping Mary is a sin.
So are idols.
msnchris70 and IHS - I care not about whether you believe I am a Christian or not.
I know in whom I have believed and I am fully persuaded that Jesus is able to keep that which I have commited unto Him (my salvation) against that day (the day of judgment). (2 Tim 2:12)
Mary wasn't sinless.
Mary had more children.
The bread and wine are symbols of Jesus' body.
Saints don't pray for us.
Confession to priests is anti-scriptural.
Priests absolving us of our sin is anti-scriptural.
Purgatory is anti-scriptural.
Works are a result of salvation, not the cause.
IHS,
Sorry to get back to you so soon. Um, yes. The erroneous, extra-biblical teachings of the RCC is what I'm talking about. And I have to agree that the LDS and RCC are a lot alike in that respect.
By the way, catholics are just another one of the countless divisions among Christians. No matter how you slice it.
And so, as you point out, rather than having a pastor "corrupting" one church, the catholics have one person corrupting an entire denomination.
ihs, the mormons are much more in line with the catholics than they are with evangelical Christians and specifically Southern Baptists. They like you have a strict heiarchy, they rely far more on extrabiblical writings than they do the Word of God, they are much more ritualistic and sacramental as you are, and instead of paying and praying peoples way out of purgatory as you do they baptize dead people out of hell and into heaven, so as I said now that you are a catholic you have a lot more in common with them and other cults who promote a works salvation belief system which by the way is about 99% of all cults. Plus as far as star2's views on issues there are several we disagree on, but not to the point I would accuse her of being a non-believer and as far as her view of baptism I would need to hear her out to understand where she is coming from before I could truly say what she believes and if I would agree or disagree because when some talk about the baptism of the Holy Spirit they are not necessarily talking about baptism with regards to water baptism.
IHS, "Be ware of the Devil..."
A history of Auricular Confession and Indulgences in The Latin Church Vol. 3 By Henry Charles LEA, LL.D:
"Somewhat different from these is the Angelic Chaplet of St. Michael. Tradition relates that the angel appeared to a pious woman and revealed that a certain formula of prayer was especially agreeable to him and to the other angels. It is somewhat formidable, consisting of nine salutations, one for each choir of the angelic host, in each of which are a Pater, three Aves, a formula of praise, an antiphon and a prayer.
It was preserved in the Carmelite nunnery of Forcassi, and, in 1851, the nuns petitioned Pius IX. for indulgences for its chaplet. The good pope, who seems never to have refused such a demand upon the treasure, granted a hundred days for every day on which the chaplet is worn or the medal of angels attached to it is kissed, seven years and quarantines for each recital, and for daily recital a plenary every month and on four feast-days in the year. In 1877 he authorized all priests holding faculties for blessing objects to include these chaplets." [End quote]
As you can see above, the road to Rome is opposed to scriptural integrity and the simplicity that is in Christ. Yes, be ware of the Devil. "And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light" (2Co 11:14).
msn,
Wow, you sound irritated my friend . . . you said, (you contradict yourself so much . . .)
It would be beneficial for everyone here if you can be a bit more specific; can you give an example?
By the way, you have yet to respond to my critiques of the Catholic Church . . . it has been nearly a month since we last chatted on the article: Second Episcopal Diocese Breaks from National Church; and I am still waiting for a response there.
BELIEVER,
Where are you?? How convenient for you to not be on this blog right now.
STar2 just admitted that you do not have to baptize in the Trinitarian way!!!
If you don't say something to her, then you have zero backbone for God!
Catholics and baptists have an accord on baptism being only valid if it is done in the trinitarian format.
You better stand up for the Trinity my friend!
Hey STAR2, Don't be sad for IHS.
Stop your idolotry immediately or you will not be saved!
Your idolotry of self is a catalyst to the netherworld.
IHS,
Good stuff!
STAR2 is officially not Christian! She finally admitted to it by her baptismal confession. So, we are up to THREE BAPTISMS NOW? Funny, I never saw that either in Scripture. LOL!
What's next to be watered down by STAR2 types? Next, you don't have to believe that Mary was a Virgin, that Jesus didn't really die, or that he didn't really rise from the dead, or the oldies but goodies that Jesus isn't really true man and true God at the same time.
The basic beliefs of Christianity, which are all contained in the Apostles Creed, will in time be even more watered down by this constant relativism within Protestantism.
Catholics and Protestants alike can whole heartedly affirm the Apostles Creed, but many of these newer so called Christian sects do not. They will whither on the vine into obscurity.
It is sad IHS that you have fallen for the false teachings and practices of the RCC.
IHS
>>>Hey Star2,
C'mon just admit it! You are not Trinitarian and what you just wrote is rubbish. Show me anywhere in the Bible where you concocted that notion that there are now three baptisms?<<<
No, it is not rubbish. Catholism is pure rubbish with its anti-biblical practices and teachings.
I will explain my position biblically but I can't right now because I have to leave for work.
>>>Be ware of the Devil, who lives in many so called Christians who pervert the Bible and the Scriptures to their own downfall.<<<
You would be wise to do the same.
>>>Anyone who does not baptise in the Trinitarian format is NOT CHRISTIAN.<<<
Oh, really.
I am coming to believe you no longer understand how one becomes a Christian.
Hey Star2,
C'mon just admit it! You are not Trinitarian and what you just wrote is rubbish. Show me anywhere in the Bible where you concocted that notion that there are now three baptisms?
Be ware of the Devil, who lives in many so called Christians who pervert the Bible and the Scriptures to their own downfall. Anyone who does not baptise in the Trinitarian format is NOT CHRISTIAN.
By the way, I have been in touch with Msnchris. He has been very kind to me and never forced the process. It is my seminary that was the main difference. Of the 32 Seminarians, six have converted to Catholicism and I and four other seminarians are beginning that process now through RCIA.
So, in my class alone 10 Protestant Evangelical Seminarians out of 32 are coming Home to the fullness of Truth revealed in the ONLY church founded by Christ.
Christ is more present in the Catholic Church. He is present in Word through Scriptures, in Word through the Liturgy, in Word through the Eucharist. We evangelicals only have the WORD in Scriptures. Evangelicalism and Protestantism in general is limited because they have systematically cut themselves off from 2000 years of Christian witness.
Chris70, I most assure you I am a Christian. I believe in the trinity. All I said was there were three different baptisms a believer in the Lord Jesus Christ should experience. To be baptised in the name of the Father is a separate event from being baptised in the name of the Son, and being baptised in the name of the Holy Ghost is a separate event from the other two.
Believer,
It was not my goal to sound arrogant.
My sole goal is to preach the fullness of Truth that is not available in Evangelical Christianity. As a current Protestant I see more errors in our faith traditions. I see it with all the lack of unity. There is truth in Protestantism, but if you love Jesus then why wouldn't you want to experience the fullness of His revelation to the World which is only available in the Catholic Church?
Look at you and Star2 for example. She is obviously a huge relativist and not surprisingly is not a Trinitarian Christian. So, Believer are you going to defend her lack of Trinitarian belief? Or are we going to call Christians anyone who believes that Jesus is the Savior, because I know a ton of Mormons who feel this way and they believe Jesus is their savior, but they also believe Jesus is the new Arch Angel Michael too and that Jesus' brother is the devil, and that Jesus isn't God!
The "Watering down of Christianity" like MsnChris has said continues!
THIS IS EXACTLY THE REASON WHY I CONVERTED TO CATHOLICISM!
Star2 rejects the Trinity, she rejects the trinitarian baptism that all Christians accept. You see, the further from the core of Christianity you get, the more screwed up and diverse your interpretations will become.
Believer baptized in the name of the father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, but Star2 doesn't. Just another prime example of what happens when you have not retained any biblical hierarchy.
I would like to see even one Protestant who has any clue what Protestants believe defend STAR2!
Believer,
I think you should take heed on who you cozy up to like Star. Who is not a Christian based on her rejection of a trinitarian baptism as Jesus told us how to baptize.
She just pointed out that she is not TRINITARIAN. If you are not TRINITARIAN and have NOT been baptized in the One Triune God, then you are NOT A CHRISTIAN.
Believer,
I would hope you would be all over this! She thinks that baptizing, like Jesus said to DO: Baptize in the name of the Father, in the name of the Son and in the name of the Holy Spirit is three baptisms. This is not three baptisms, or are you that ignorant?
Christians are all Trinitarian without exception. We believe in one God in three persons of the same substance.
All this time STAR2 and you are not even Christian!
star2, and I've noticed since he made that announcement that catholic arrogance I spoke to is coming through his posts loud and clear.
believer, IHS and msnchris70 were in email touch with one another. It looks like chris70 succeeded in making a convert out of IHS. Before long IHS will be addressed as 'Father' IHS if he decides to go into the priesthood.
ihs, plus I guess as a catholic growing up I missed out on receiving the sacrament that gives one catholic arrogance which seems to be very pronounced in chris, tallguy, and yourself. Just what sacrament is that?
ihs, by the way here is the whole passage, "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them." This sure takes the wind out of the catholics teaching of works salvation!! The bottomline is that God's grace allowed His Son Jesus Christ to go to the cross and die for all the sins of all mankind so that we could be saved but until a person turns from their sin and turns to God by putting their complete faith/trust in the person and finished work of Christ they cannot receive this free gift which cost God His very best and cost Christ His very life.
ihs, please show me using the Word of God alone, without all your newly bought into extrabiblical and/or false teaching of the catholic church where I misinterpreted what Paul meant in Ephesians 2:8-9?
chris70, do you blindly follow everything your god, the Pope, says or do you take what he says and with prayer search the scriptures for yourself to see if what he says is what scripture teaches like the Bereans did with the teachings of the Apostle Paul? Disagreeing with the Pope won't cause you to lose your salvation but rejecting God until you draw your last breath will. Don't look to the Pope for understanding of the Word of God. Look to God. If you will then God, through the Holy Ghost, will teach you what His Word means. That is the teaching of Jesus as recorded in the Gospel of John (John 14:26,16:13), and the Apostle John in the his first epistle (1 John 2:27).
Chris70, what if God convicts your heart that there are one or more teachings and practices of the RCC that are not scriptural and He moves on you to change. Who will you yield to, the Pope and the teachings of the RCC or to the Lord and the teachings in the Word of God?
msnchris70, sorry I misspelled your name (maschris70), it was a typo error.
Also chris70, you had better be sure that your life has every i dotted and every t crossed because you will perish if you don't according to your beliefs.
maschris70
>>>The Salvation army does good social justice work, but they still baptize people in an invalid manner. The Salvation Army does not baptize in the Trinitarian way, they baptize only in the name of Jesus, which is incorrect. We worship a triune God, not Jesus alone.<<<
To do water baptism in the name of Jesus only is the correct and scriptual way.
Baptism in the name of the Father, in the name of the Son, and in the name of the Holy Ghost are three separate baptisms.
You, chris70, have no place in judging another in regard to baptism when the RCC practices infantile baptism and baptism at confirmation after a person decides to agree to the teaching of the RCC instead of being saved by God. A person can't be saved unless God deals with the person's heart that he/she is a sinner condemmed to eternal damnation, is in need of a Savior and that Savior is the Lord Jesus Christ and that person, from his/her heart, choses to receive what Christ did for him/her and invites Jesus into his/her heart as Savior and Lord. Salvation by any other method is not salvation!
The RCC is a religious cult! It is not the pathway to God.
Oh, BTW Chris70, neither does your Pope!
Chris70, you have no understanding of the Word of God.
Thank you Wilderness,
I love all these titles for the Pope. They all sound good to me, especially when they were created over 2000 years for a population that has grown from a few hundred to over a Billion people he is Prime Minister of for Jesus.
Since none of these titles go against Scripture, they are allowed. We can call him Holy, since that would be a good word to describe a gentleman who lives for Christ, is in charge of the entire flock for Christ, and prays constantly for all people to be saved through Christ.
I've met him and he is a very holy man. We also call him Father, which is also not going against the Bible if you actually read the context. If you don't understand the context, then get a Teacher....oh, then you can't call someone teacher either or Rabbi or Doctor or Master. So, you better not call Dr. Billy Graham, since the word Doctor means teacher.
If you take that scripture out of context you wouldn't even be able to call your dad father, and then Stephen in the bible who was under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit called the Jews his Fathers of Faith and Saint Paul Called himself a Spiritual Father to Timothy would all be Blaspheming under your understanding of scripture.
Face it, if the Apostles were alive today and came into anyone of your churches they would say,"Are you Christian? you would say "Yes", then they would ask where is your bishop, Priest and Deacon? you would say we don't have those, then they would ask where is Jesus in the Eucharist? you would say we have sourdough and grape juice as a symbol and they would say," Who told you that you could change the christianity we gave to you through Apostolic tradition? We told you to hold fast to these Traditions, but you did not.
Protestants: "So many lines of Scripture, so let's just be an ala carte religion so we don't have to read the whole book and consider the whole of scripture. Let's be a religion that focuses only on a few lines and let's ignore 2000 years of Christian witness and form our own opinions since they are better than anyone who knew Jesus or the Apostles personally."
Title of the Pope: Our Holy Father, Your Holiness...
It is blasphemous for a man to take upon himself the names that belong only to God the Father.
<<<The road to Rome is opposed to scriptural integrity.<<<
Wilderness, since when did that make a difference to a catholic?
IHS, "If you are not in communion with the Prime Minister of Christ who is the Pope, then you are only imperfectly alligned with Christ Church."
Prime Minister of Christ. Is that a new title? Other titles have been:
Patriarch of the West
Primate of Italy
Metropolitan of the Province of Rome
Sovereign Pontiff
Our Holy Father
Your Holiness
Most Blessed Father
Servant of the Servants of God
Bishop of Rome
Vicar of Jesus Christ
Successor of the Prince of the Apostles
Supreme Pontiff of the Universal Church
Patriarch of the West
Primate of Italy
Archbishop and Metropolitan of the Roman Province
Sovereign of the State of Vatican City
The above establishment is a far cry from "Peter, an apostle, a servant, an elder" and proper biblical alignment. The road to Rome is opposed to scriptural integrity.
8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faithâ€â€and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of Godâ۠9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
You notice that the word "Alone" that Believer inserted is not there!!! This is a prime example of what is wrong with everyone having their own interpretation.
I think it is rather funny that the bible says we should not add to the pages that have been written, and much like Luther Believer feels called by some Spirit to put in the words "Alone". I know what spirit it is, and it is not the Holy Spirit.
Every Catholic and Orthodox would say Amen to the actual version of Ephesians, rather than the manipulated version of Believer. You see, you have to insert things into the Bible for Believer's theology to work.
Believer's new theology: Bible alone + What I choose to insert to make my theology work!
Believers version of Ephesians 2:8-10
Ephesians 2:8-10, by grace alone, through faith alone, because of Christ alone, is the only way a person can become a child of God.
Now here is the real version that believer so conveniently perverted and manipulated to fit his own personal theology. This is just another example of how self interpretation works.
The real version: Ephesians 2:8-10 (New International Version)
8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faithâ€â€and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of Godâ۠9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
You notice that the Word "ALONE" Does not appear? Do you notice that this insertion by Believer creates a huge misinterpretation?
All Catholics and all Christians would say Amen to this scripture with accepting hearts and minds. What we will not accept is cheap faith, nor a surface faith that will not save you. Real faith requires a response to God's Grace. To receive a gift you must accept it or reject it, which is a action.
We are saved by Grace, through faith. You must really dislike Saint James, since your theology is contrary to the book of James.
Here are the doctrines of The Salvation Army, from www.salvationarmy.org:
We believe that the Scriptures of the Old and New Testaments were given by inspiration of God, and that they only constitute the Divine rule of Christian faith and practice.
We believe that there is only one God, who is infinitely perfect, the Creator, Preserver, and Governor of all things, and who is the only proper object of religious worship.
We believe that there are three persons in the Godhead - the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, undivided in essence and co-equal in power and glory.
We believe that in the person of Jesus Christ the Divine and human natures are united, so that He is truly and properly God and truly and properly man.
We believe that our first parents were created in a state of innocency, but by their disobedience, they lost their purity and happiness, and that in consequence of their fall, all men have become sinners, totally depraved, and as such are justly exposed to the wrath of God.
We believe that the Lord Jesus Christ has by His suffering and death made an atonement for the whole world so that whosoever will may be saved.
We believe that repentance toward God, faith in our Lord Jesus Christ and regeneration by the Holy Spirit are necessary to salvation.
We believe that we are justified by grace through faith in our Lord Jesus Christ and that he that believeth hath the witness in himself.
We believe that continuance in a state of salvation depends upon continued obedient faith in Christ.
We believe that it is the privilege of all believers to be wholly sanctified, and that their whole spirit and soul and body may be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
We believe in the immortality of the soul, the resurrection of the body, in the general judgement at the end of the world, in the eternal happiness of the righteous, and in the endless punishment of the wicked.
Salvation Army officer couples are both ordained ministers of the gospel. They are both commissioned to be engaged full time in Salvation Army work. It is their lifetime vocation. There is no similar requirement for other persons associated with the group -- lay members, employees, volunteers, etc.
The group does not teach that this a scriptural mandate, or the only model for ministry. The Salvation Army wants officers who are fully dedicated to their marriage and fully dedicated to their vocation and therefore as a practical matter, officer couple are both officers.
Guess I'll be boycotting the salvation army from now on and giving my donations to goodwill.
ihs, Ephesians 2:8-10, by grace alone, through faith alone, because of Christ alone, is the only way a person can become a child of God. But I'm glad to see that you, chris, and tallguy are finally admitting to the fact that the catholic church teaches a works salvation a fact which most of us former catholics have been saying all along.
ihs, but now you belong to a denomination that teaches a whole slew of things that are both extrabiblical and contrary to the Bible.
ihs, please note that neither Peter or Paul or anyone in the Bible lays claim to being a pope only the catholic church makes this claim.
ihs, they won't claim to speak infallibly since claimig to do so is a bold face lie as it is with anyone to include the pope!
Oops - it wouldn't let me post everything in one message...
...It seems your first "Pope" didn't respect the rules subsequently developed by the Catholic church.
Also read Galatians: Peter had to be rebuked for his theological errors by Paul, having fallen into Jewish legalism. So between these and other occasions, Peter was very much in need of a Savior and correction - just like the rest of us.
I realize, as a converted Catholic, you need to justify to yourself why you converted. Why not just accept it that you made that choice? Many of the rest of us respect Catholics but don't hold to your viewpoints for solid historical and theological reasons. However, we can agree on Christ as the Savior of the world, so why not just focus on that?
IHS,
In my opinion, you're standing on pretty shaky ground with all your infallibility claims for the Catholic church, esp. when these claims only were made in 1870 - five years after the founding of the Salvation Army!
I find it somewhat ironic that you would make your comments in light of this story about who can marry in the Salvation Army. The Catholic church, that you claim was infallibly founded on Peter, bans priests from marrying. Yet read your own Bible about how Peter was married: Matthew 8:14 "When Jesus came into Peter’s home, He saw his mother-in-law lying sick in bed with a fever." It seems your first "Pope" didn't respect the rules subsequently developed by the Catholic church.
Also read Galatians: Peter had to be rebuked for his theological errors by Paul, having fallen into Jewish legalism. So between these and other occasions, Peter was very much in need of a Savior and correction - just like the rest of us.
I realize, as a converted Catholic, you need to justify to yourself why you converted. Why not just accept it that you made that choice? Many of the rest of us respect Catholics but don't hold to your viewpoints for solid historical and theological reasons. However, we can agree on Christ as the Savior of the world, so why not just focus on that?
Prophet,
If you actually read what the Salvation Army believes you will see they are "barely" Christian. They are holding on to their Christian identity by a string, so give them another 50 years and we'll see if they haven't fallen into more heresy.
Like how the Salvation Army began, it is a very similar story how many Protestants began new denominations who are not even Christian like the Mormons, Unitarians, Jehovah Witnesses, Church of Christ Scientist, etc.
I know coming from a Baptist and Pentecostal and non-denomination mix of a background that each church is only one Pastor away from preaching something new or contrary to the Scriptures. Each Pastor becomes their own infallible teacher.
I am so thankful to be converting to the Catholic faith, which is built on the Rock and can authoritatively interpret scripture for God's flock.
Let's compare for a second.
Salvation Army, founded by William Booth in 1865 who left the Methodist Church to create another new breakaway denomination. They don't believe there is any necessicity in baptism at all, communion or any of the ordinances commanded by Christ. All their beliefs are based on William Booth and his wife's interpretation.
The Catholic Church's was founded by JESUS CHRIST on the Apostles who were the original hierarchy of God's new Church. The Catholic Church is 2000 years old, received authority and protection from God and Jesus Christ chose Peter to be the Prime Minister of His Church. The Catholic Church has all SEVEN SACRAMENTS from God to administer and all these Sacraments are efficatious and infuse Grace. God personally gave the Catholic Church his protection to keep this and only this church from error in preaching doctrine and morals.
Hmmm. Yes, Prophet they sound really close!
Prophet,
Erroneous teachings? You mean like going by the Bible alone, or that we are saved by faith alone? You mean non-biblical, non-Apostolic and non-Christian teachings like these?
Without holding fast to the Sacred Tradition that Paul and the other Apostles handed down to the Church, it is no wonder why there are 40,000 of us Protestants. Heck, in my family alone we have baptists, pentecostals, non-denominationals, free-methodists and quite a few others. So, even in my own family there is no agreement and no authority to say which doctrines are true.
The Catholic Church was founded by Christ and has the protection of God forever in faith and morals as I've learned. The Catholic church has the power to bind and lose doctrines, power to forgive sins and the power to teach authoritatively from God.
I'm not sure what denomination you belong to, but as a Protestant Seminarian converting to Catholicism there is no person in any Protestant Church who will claim or have claimed to speak infallibly for God. Only the Catholic Church out of all the churches has taken this position, so anything your denomination teaches could be wrong.
Remember Prophet, God only founded biblically and historically one church. As Protestants, our churches were founded by men and some of them were founded by our parents and grandparents. God didn't personally found our churches, he founded one.. The Catholic Church. Just like God in the OT had the Jews as His Chosen people, in the New Testament Christ established one Church on the Apostles and Peter was the Prime Minister for Christ who is the head of the Church. If you are not in communion with the Prime Minister of Christ who is the Pope, then you are only imperfectly alligned with Christ Church.
Sounds like the Salvation Army is running even with the Catholic church on their erroneous teachings....
Well, maybe not THAT bad, but close.
The Salvation Army is going beyond the Teaching of Scripture, therefore they are wrong to require more than God does.
And at the sametime, Once you sign on the dotted line, you are responsible.
Thanks, Believer.
You're right about my sarcasm. (Woops)
But I used to be on the writing staff for The Onion and it still comes out sometimes.
blacksho, I can support chicago on this one in two ways he has never advocated churches be forced to either acknowledge or perform same sex marriages, nor have I ever heard him spew any mean spirited remarks toward other posters, sarcasm at time yes but name-calling no.
the church ladies (and their church men) on this site would like to have the same authority over all Americans that the Salvation Army has over its members. I don't think we'll go that way, thanks.
Blacksho: You are WAY out of line, for I have never resorted to name-calling on CP comments. Unlike a lot of posters on here, I have always tried to conduct myself with dignity and respect. I think Believer will back me up on this.
As far as not acknowledging gay marriage, I said that CHURCHES certainly have the right to say who they will and will not marry. Even in Massachusetts and Connecticut.
What's so remarkable about that?
chicago24 said at 1:22 pm: "That just goes to show that the fear over churches being forced to marry same-sex couples is completely unfounded and has absolutely no precidence."
Hallelujah! Chicago just gave written acknowledgement to all of us here that we can refuse to acknowledge gay "marriage"!
This should free up a lot of bandwidth, as he will no longer be able to call us bigots and 'phobes for saying that marriage is one man, one woman.
Wiccan: Lots of social service agencies that are affiliated with religious denominations get federal funding. The Roman Catholic church, for example, operates quite a few substance abuse treatment centers and receives Medicaid funding. And yet, the Catholic church has a long history of saying who can and cannot get married.
That just goes to show that the fear over churches being forced to marry same-sex couples is completely unfounded and has absolutely no precidence.
wic, the same way the military frowns and in some cases disciplines enlisted members and officers for fraternizing with one another.
Does this group get federal $$? If so, what are they doing dictating whom their members should marry?
Believer: It's Friday, it's nippy in Chicago (7 F) and yes, I'm in a jocular mood. :)
The Salvation army does good social justice work, but they still baptize people in an invalid manner. The Salvation Army does not baptize in the Trinitarian way, they baptize only in the name of Jesus, which is incorrect. We worship a triune God, not Jesus alone.
This near christian religion does a lot of great work with the poor, but their theology is extremely weak.
chicago, are we wired or what today, considering some of your posts!!:)
Not many organizations survive 140+ years and retain their original mission almost to the letter. Those of us on the outside may not understand the inner workings or agree with all their rules but we should give deference to a very effective ministry. People aren't forced to join, it's a voluntary organization and they apparently make this rule very clear.
I wonder what the Salvation Army would think if two men who were Officers got married to each other in Massachusetts or Connecticut?
I assume not many people outside of The Salvation Army know about its structure. Officers are ordained ministers, the lay members are called soldiers. Officers go through 2 years of training for ordination and as ministers they are subject for transfer anywhere. When one officer is busy elsewhere, the other officer takes over the corps (church) responsibilities. Those being all the duties of a minister. This may seem unfair to some, but it has stood the time of more than a hundred years and has work well.
As much as we may disagree with the policy as he stated he knowingly violated the policy and where I would hope they would revisit this policy as Thoreau said if one practices civil disobedience then one must be ready to pay the consequences of that civil disobedience.
Why doesn't the bride join the Salvation Army before they get married?
Most importantly a 'God honoring' bench mark for policy should be 'not' to go further than what scripture says. That was the view of the reformation. Ultimatly whose 'Salvation' is it anyway. I pray the very venerable Salvation Army will honor the Word in this regard and not the 'traditions of men', and in so doing do right with their LORD and HIS people!
I believe such a rule to be unfair, and unbiblical, the rule should be changed.