Updated 12:47 pm.EST, Sun November 22, 2009

Society|Tue, Dec. 09 2008 03:35 PM EST

Media Misconceptions on Bible, Homosexuality

By Lillian Kwon|Christian Post Reporter

In the aftermath of the passage of California's Proposition 8, Newsweek and Hollywood are the latest players to launch their attacks on traditional marriage supporters and the biblical case against homosexuality.

  • Prop 8: The Musical
    (Photo: AP Images / FunnyOrDie.com)
    In this image released by FunnyorDie, Jack Black portrays Jesus in a Web video called "Prop 8: The Musical."

And Christians are taking issue with the misconceptions, factual errors and holes in the arguments being presented in popular public spheres.

"It doesn’t surprise me. Newsweek has been so far in the tank on the homosexual issue, for so long, they need scuba gear and breathing apparatus," said Richard Land, president of the Southern Baptist Convention’s Ethics and Religious Liberty Commission, according to Politico. "I don’t think it’s going to change the minds of anyone who takes biblical teachings seriously."

Land's comments were directed at Newsweek's current cover story, "The Religious Case for Gay Marriage," written by religion editor Lisa Miller. In the story, Miller says "examples of 'the traditional family' are scarcely to be found" in the Old Testament and that the Bible does not explicitly define marriage as between one man and one woman. She further argues that the modern married couple would not look to the Bible as a guide while citing polygamy in the Old Testament.

"Religious objections to gay marriage are rooted not in the Bible at all, then, but in custom and tradition," Miller writes. "The Bible was written for a world so unlike our own, it’s impossible to apply its rules, at face value, to ours."

Rejecting Miller's arguments, Land said the Bible clearly prescribes marriage as heterosexual, citing passages in Genesis, where God pairs Adam and Eve, and Ephesians (in the New Testament) when the apostle Paul compares the relationship between husband and wife to the relationship between Jesus and the Church, according to Politico.

Newsweek's story reflects the confusion that many people have regarding Scripture and homosexuality.

And the media isn't the only one to blame for it.

"Part of that [confusion] is skillful misrepresentation, and part of it is the failure of the church to faithfully and diligently promote biblical apologetics and exegesis," according to Bob Stith, who heads the Ministry to Homosexuals Task Force in the Southern Baptist Convention.

The confusion is also played out in the Funny Or Die video, "Prop 8 – The Musical," which was posted last week. In it, popular celebrities, including Neil Patrick Harris and Jack Black, weigh in on the amendment that defines marriage as between one man and one woman. The musical accuses Christians of picking and choosing Bible verses to make their case against gay marriage and mocks them as hatemongers.

"Leviticus says shellfish is an abomination," Black, who portrays Jesus in the musical, states in the musical as he responds to the Christians' argument that the Bible says homosexuality is an abomination. "The Bible says a lot of interesting things like you can stone your wife or sell your daughter into slavery."

"Well we ignore those verses," says John C. Reilly, who plays a Christian.

"It seems to me you pick and choose. Well please choose love instead of hate," Black sings.

Randy Thomas, vice president of Exodus International, responded saying the musical showed a "sincere misunderstanding of Scripture."

Tim Wilkins, a former homosexual who heads Cross Ministry, argued that gay marriage supporters "are doing the very thing they accuse Christians of."

"They focus on Leviticus and ignore New Testament passages that forbid homosexuality. WHY? Because Leviticus provides easier arguments with its prohibitions against certain foods."

SBC's Stith also denounced Hollywood's attempt to make biblical arguments. "Anyone who cares to spend thirty minutes of serious study would see the many flaws in Black’s argument," he said.

Clearing up some of the confusion, Stith called it a "factual error" to claim that Scripture says homosexuals are an abomination. "It is an error to say the Bible says that. It doesn't. It calls homosexual acts an abomination, not homosexuals," he commented.

"In the same passage in Leviticus that speaks about homosexuality the Bible also warns against incest, bestiality, and adultery," he said. Also, "while the New Testament doesn’t mention shellfish (and some would argue that Acts 10 clears that argument up) it clearly continues the biblical prohibition on homosexual acts."

Additionally, "Nowhere in the entire canon of Scripture are homosexual relationships ever spoken of approvingly," Stith continued. "The Bible is clear that God created us as sexual beings. But it is also clear that He provided us boundaries and guidelines for the use of that wonderful gift."

Addressing a more sensitive topic, Stith sees the label "hate" being used in ignorance or willful malice against those who simply disagree.

"On several occasions, sometimes with tears in my own eyes, I’ve said to people about actions in which they were involved, 'You know, this isn’t God’s best for you. He has something better if you’re willing to walk in obedience.' Does this make me a 'hater' or does it mean that I care about that person and genuinely believe that God knows what He’s talking about?" Stith posed.

But again, Christians aren't entirely blame-free in this gay marriage debate – which Newsweek's Miller believes is a full-scale war now.

"Unfortunately, we live in an age of sound bites and slogans. It should challenge us as Christians to be much more diligent not to settle for the same thing," Stith said. "We do that when we trot out the same tired arguments against homosexuality without acknowledging that we unnecessarily wound people by the way we use those arguments. We don’t acknowledge the real pain felt by many in the homosexual community. And honestly, we often slip into a trap of 'us vs. them.'"

"We must evaluate whether our arguments are based in our love for God as well as for all people. Do we speak against homosexual acts because we genuinely care; because we genuinely believe that sin – any sin – brings pleasure for a season but ultimately hinders the fullness that God wants all of us to enjoy?"

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  • Mon Apr 20, 2009 11:14 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    I have a begrudging respect for the journalism of Lillian Kwon & many of the other regular contributors to CP. But there are side items that need to be corrected , as they automatically twist everything following. For example : I guarantee you that Throckmorton & Cameron are not widely or narrowly respected by any in the scientific disciplines from the right or left.

  • Fri Jan 16, 2009 12:42 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Thank you Bryan, but you know as well as I, that God through is word express that homosexuality is a sin, this is nothing whic is a man made conspiracy against homosexuals, and this what is and has been said comes froms from the book(Bible) which is part of this nations religious fiber. This is not self style teaching because the source of this doctrine and teaching is from God. 1 timothy 1:9-10, "Knowing this, that the law is not made for the righteous person, but for the lawlwss ans insubordinate, for the ungodly and for sinners, for the unholy and profane, for murders of fathers, and murders of mothers, for manslayers. For fornicators, for sodomite, for kidnappers, for liars ,for perjurers, and anyother thing thatis contrary to sound doctrine. This is documented, Bryan, not something that was new from the heavens presented now. So this documented doctrine has stood the test of time and declaring a believer speaking what has been taught, from the heart, as speeaking hate , will soon be seen as foolish when what is says come from the docmented word of the Lord.

  • Mon Jan 12, 2009 12:26 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    "There are selfstyle teachers who use the bible to support their unrighteous causes and argue hate and attack."

    Reread that sentence and see how it relfects on people who think homosexuality is a sin.

    "These selfstyle teachers use the bible unlawfully to support and excuse sin of individuals, but what the bible says will utlimately defeat false accusers always. "

    Reread that and see how it reflects on those who justify their persecution on God's creations - women, blacks, homosexuals, etc.

  • Sat Jan 10, 2009 9:56 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Seeing both points discussed, only have me to think of 1 Timothy 1:6-8," From which some ,having strayed, having turned ,aside to idle talk. Desiring to be teacheers of the law, understanding neither what they say nor the things which they affirm. But we know t hat the lawis good if one uses it lawfully." There are selfstyle teachers who use the bible to support their unrighteous causes and argue hate and attack, the believer, who is grounded in the word, who reveals biblical truths against sin. These selfstyle teachers use the bible unlawfully to support and excuse sin of individuals, but what the bible says will utlimately defeat false accusers always.

  • Wed Dec 31, 2008 6:54 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    bryan, just because something doesn't make sense to you and I doesn't mean it doesn't make sense to God or to the people who were living during the time God gave them that word, plus this was an option as were many of the laws that said a person could be executed for violating them, but yet in Numbers were told only murder required that the death penalty be carried out. But there are many more teachings that are black and white that can and should be taken literally by believers.

  • Wed Dec 31, 2008 11:16 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Hey Brother Steiner...

    Something I had to learn about the posting system here, I'd like to share. When copying text try removing quotes, commas in the text copy. Then copy it onto notepad.
    There is also a 'delete' feature next to the thumbs up and down; you can delete any comment you make. (the false starts).

    Happy posting, hope to see you around and about.

  • Wed Dec 31, 2008 10:56 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    jh-"See what I mean? Now I am a duplicate Christ."

    A bit touchy, jh?

    Here's what I said: "Mark 13:22 says "For false christs and false prophets will rise and show signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect."
    Careful of duplicate Christs. Only one who saves."

    What's wrong with that, giving Scripture to Bryan after his comment about you being another Christ, or a prophet.

    jh-" I appreciate the sentiment, but I'd prefer it if you did not call me a prophet. I am simply a human being who reads one part of Scripture a bit differently."

    Not a prophet?

    1Cor 14:39 "Therefore, brethren, desire earnestly to prophesy..."

    And for the record this statement is incorrect, "who reads one part of Scripture a bit differently."

    One Part? I can point to at least two and to get where you are in your reading, then many other Scriptures read " a bit differently" for you as well.

    1) Homosexuality is not a sin and is 'could be' part of God's plan for mankind.

    2) Christians should not judge sin.

    Romans 16:17-20 "Now I urge you, brethren, note those who cause divisions and offenses, contrary to the doctrine which you learned, and avoid them.
    For those who are such do not serve our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly, and by smooth words and flattering speech deceive the hearts of the simple.
    For your obedience has become known to all. Therefore I am glad on your behalf; but I want you to be wise in what is good, and simple concerning evil."

    I hesitate to carry on with you, jh as I fear there are many more scriptures you read a bit differently and you are one who doesn't listen to correction. Please know that if I see you on CP saying anything contrary to the Word of God, I will challenge you.

  • Wed Dec 31, 2008 10:37 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    jh,
    Unfortuantely, for the most part you are believeing in a doctrine relatively new. And because of this most feel it is necessary to either teach you more accurately or expose your false doctrine. You do not strick me as niave. I'll be willing to gander you are well aware of the reactions you'll recieve.

    I seems you are sincere. But a wise man used to have a saying about some folks...someone can be sincerely wrong, too.

    Yes, we do disagree, but I still have enjoyed a few good discussions with you. Hope you Christmas was enjoyable.

  • Wed Dec 31, 2008 3:26 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Jhilgeman,

    Regarding your claim that Jesus said that no food is unclean, therefore breaking the laws of the O.T.

    You are incorrect...

    Jesus was simply disagreeing with the Pharisaic notion that food touched by unwashed hands was made unclean.

    In fact, Jesus plainly states this further down in Matthew 15.20 (... these are the things which defile a man, but to eat with unwashed hands does not defile a man.)

    Now, because your interpretation led to a wrong premise(s), then your argument is untenable.

    This explains why you got hung up on #6 (as you stated in a previous thread)

    Jesus upheld all the Law, Matthew 5.17 (...do not think that I came to destroy the law, I did not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

    As regards to the healing that Jesus performed on Saturday...This, once again is not work(it is what the Pharisees defined as work, but not the Law)...or please clarify what work you mean.

    Remember, the only accusation that stuck, made by the Pharisees, was that Jesus blasphemed in claiming to be God, which is what Jesus said and that is why they had Jesus crucified.

    The resurrection of Jesus proved in fact, that His claim is true. He is God incarnate, the Immanuel.

    The other dilemma that you have and that I wish to clarify is in regards to the customary laws in the O.T.

    Why do we not follow them?

    These were meant for the Hebrews: to distinguish them and keep them apart from the other nations....Jesus was to be a Hebrew as as a fulfilment of God s promise to Abraham.

    They are no longer necessary, that is why in Acts 15.1-30 the apostles, under inspiration of the Holy Spirit removed the burden of the customary laws from the gentiles.

    Sexual sins(sexual immorality) do not fall under customary laws...and that is why, while the customary laws are discarded, sexual immorality laws are upheld in Acts 15. That is why Paul condemns the case of sexual immorality in 1st Corinthians 5, and adultery and homosexuality and other sexual immoral activity in 1 Corinthians 6.9-11

    In 1 Corinthians 17.2, Paul sanctions sexual behaviour only between a husband and a wife.

    Once again... bestiality, paedophelia, necromancy...clearly forbidden in the O.T. and even though they are not specifically in the N.T. they remain so, because they fall under the canopy of immoral sexual acts.

    Tying these immoral sexual acts to marriage does not in any way sanction them.

  • Wed Dec 31, 2008 3:07 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Part 2

    Jesus upheld all the Law…. Matthew 5.17 – Do not think that I came to destroy the law. I did not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

    As regards to the healing that Jesus performed on Saturday…This is not work(it s what the Pharisees defined as work, but not the law)…or please clarify exactly what work you mean.

    Remember, the only accusation that stuck, made by the Pharisees, was that Jesus blasphemed in claiming to be God, which is what Jesus said and that is why they had Jesus crucified.
    The resurrection of Jesus proved that in fact His claim is true. He is God incarnate.

    The other dilemma that you have, is in regards to the customary laws. Why do we not follow them?
    These were meant for the Hebrews: to distinguish them and keep them apart from the other nations…Jesus was to be a Hebrew (as promised by God as a fulfilment of God s promise to Abraham).
    Now, they are now no longer necessary.

  • Wed Dec 31, 2008 3:05 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Jhilgeman, (sorry about previous postings...having trouble pasting)

    Regarding your claim that Jesus said that no food is unclean, therefore breaking the laws of the O.T.
    You are wrong...
    Jesus was simply disagreeing with the pharisaic notion that food touched by unwashed hands was made unclean.
    In fact Jesus summarises this further down in Matthew 15.20
    These are the things which defile a man, but to eat with unwashed hands does not defile a man.
    Now, because your interpretation was wrong, the premises you made are consequently wrong.
    This explains why you got hung up on #6 (as you stated).

    Jesus upheld all the Law…. Matthew 5.17 – Do not think that I came to destroy the law. I did not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

    As regards to the healing that Jesus performed on Saturday…This is not work(it s what the Pharisees defined as work, but not the law)…or please clarify exactly what work you mean.

    Remember, the only accusation that stuck, made by the Pharisees, was that Jesus blasphemed in claiming to be God, which is what Jesus said and that is why they had Jesus crucified.
    The resurrection of Jesus proved that in fact His claim is true. He is God incarnate.

    The other dilemma that you have, is in regards to the customary laws. Why do we not follow them?
    These were meant for the Hebrews: to distinguish them and keep them apart from the other nations…Jesus was to be a Hebrew (as promised by God as a fulfilment of God s promise to Abraham).
    Now, they are now no longer necessary.
    That is why in Acts 15.1-30 the Apostles, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit removed the burden of the customary laws from the gentiles.
    Sexual sins(immorality), as I have pointed out before, do not fall under customary laws…and that is why, while the customary laws are discarded, sexual immorality laws are upheld in Acts 15. That is why Paul condemns a case of sexual immorality in 1st Corinthians 5…and homosexual acts or any other sexual immoral activity in 1Corinthians 6.9-11.
    In 1st Corinthians 17.2 Paul sanctions sexual behaviour only between a husband and wife.
    Once again… bestiality, paedophilia are immoral sexual and necromancy are clearly forbidden in the O.T. and even though they are not specifically mentioned in the New Testament, they remain so because they are defined as immoral sexual acts.
    Tying these immoral sexual acts and homosexuality to marriage does not in any way sanction these acts. They all fall under the canopy of immoral sexual behaviour.

  • Wed Dec 31, 2008 3:02 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Jhilgeman,

    Regarding your claim that Jesus said that no food is unclean, therefore breaking the laws of the O.T.
    You are wrong...
    Jesus was simply disagreeing with the pharisaic notion that food touched by unwashed hands was made unclean.
    In fact Jesus summarises this further down in Matthew 15.20
    These are the things which defile a man, but to eat with unwashed hands does not defile a man.
    Now, because your interpretation was wrong, the premises you made are consequently wrong.
    This explains why you got hung up on #6 (as you stated).

    Jesus upheld all the Law…. Matthew 5.17 – Do not think that I came to destroy the law. I did not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

    As regards to the healing that Jesus performed on Saturday…This is not work(it s what the Pharisees defined as work, but not the law)…or please clarify exactly what work you mean.

    Remember, the only accusation that stuck, made by the Pharisees, was that Jesus blasphemed in claiming to be God, which is what Jesus said and that is why they had Jesus crucified.
    The resurrection of Jesus proved that in fact His claim is true. He is God incarnate.

    The other dilemma that you have, is in regards to the customary laws. Why do we not follow them?
    These were meant for the Hebrews: to distinguish them and keep them apart from the other nations…Jesus was to be a Hebrew (as promised by God as a fulfilment of God s promise to Abraham).
    Now, they are now no longer necessary.
    That is why in Acts 15.1-30 the Apostles, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit removed the burden of the customary laws from the gentiles.
    Sexual sins(immorality), as I have pointed out before, do not fall under customary laws…and that is why, while the customary laws are discarded, sexual immorality laws are upheld in Acts 15. That is why Paul condemns a case of sexual immorality in 1st Corinthians 5…and homosexual acts or any other sexual immoral activity in 1Corinthians 6.9-11.
    In 1st Corinthians 17.2 Paul sanctions sexual behaviour only between a husband and wife.
    Once again… bestiality, paedophilia are immoral sexual and necromancy are clearly forbidden in the O.T. and even though they are not specifically mentioned in the New Testament, they remain so because they are defined as immoral sexual acts.
    Tying these immoral sexual acts and homosexuality to marriage does not in any way sanction these acts. They all fall under the canopy of immoral sexual behaviour.

  • Wed Dec 31, 2008 3:00 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Jhilgeman,

    Regarding your claim that Jesus said that no food is unclean, therefore breaking the laws of the O.T.
    You are wrong...
    Jesus was simply disagreeing with the pharisaic notion that food touched by unwashed hands was made unclean.
    In fact Jesus summarises this further down in Matthew 15.20
    These are the things which defile a man, but to eat with unwashed hands does not defile a man.
    Now, because your interpretation was wrong, the premises you made are consequently wrong.
    This explains why you got hung up on #6 (as you stated).

    Jesus upheld all the Law…. Matthew 5.17 – Do not think that I came to destroy the law. I did not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

    As regards to the healing that Jesus performed on Saturday…This is not work(it s what the Pharisees defined as work, but not the law)…or please clarify exactly what work you mean.

    Remember, the only accusation that stuck, made by the Pharisees, was that Jesus blasphemed in claiming to be God, which is what Jesus said and that is why they had Jesus crucified.
    The resurrection of Jesus proved that in fact His claim is true. He is God incarnate.

    The other dilemma that you have, is in regards to the customary laws. Why do we not follow them?
    These were meant for the Hebrews: to distinguish them and keep them apart from the other nations…Jesus was to be a Hebrew (as promised by God as a fulfilment of God s promise to Abraham).
    Now, they are now no longer necessary.
    That is why in Acts 15.1-30 the Apostles, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit removed the burden of the customary laws from the gentiles.
    Sexual sins(immorality), as I have pointed out before, do not fall under customary laws…and that is why, while the customary laws are discarded, sexual immorality laws are upheld in Acts 15. That is why Paul condemns a case of sexual immorality in 1st Corinthians 5…and homosexual acts or any other sexual immoral activity in 1Corinthians 6.9-11.
    In 1st Corinthians 17.2 Paul sanctions sexual behaviour only between a husband and wife.
    Once again… bestiality, paedophilia are immoral sexual and necromancy are clearly forbidden in the O.T. and even though they are not specifically mentioned in the New Testament, they remain so because they are defined as immoral sexual acts.
    Tying these immoral sexual acts and homosexuality to marriage does not in any way sanction these acts. They all fall under the canopy of immoral sexual behaviour.

  • Tue Dec 30, 2008 11:54 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    -sigh- It is sad that I feel I even have to clarify this, but given the intensity of Delight's apparent hatred of me, that last post was purely sarcastic.

    I do not believe I am a duplicate Christ. I do not believe I am Christ, either. I do not believe I am a prophet or anything more than another Christian. I don't do wonders, miracles, or anything of the sort, and I do not deceive or teach falsely. I sin and repent, just like all other Christians, am saved, and believe in and serve the Trinity.

  • Tue Dec 30, 2008 11:43 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    See what I mean? Now I am a duplicate Christ.

  • Tue Dec 30, 2008 11:42 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Bryan90 - I appreciate the sentiment, but I'd prefer it if you did not call me a prophet. I am simply a human being who reads one part of Scripture a bit differently.

    Normally, I'd just wave it off, but Delight and Steiner seem intent on making me into a false teacher or into Satan or something. Since they do not believe what you believe, you're the same as a pagan to them, and they'll just say, "Look - jh is a false teacher because a pagan is calling him a prophet." Delight already tried this on me using another person on here named Mike.

  • Tue Dec 30, 2008 11:37 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Mark 13:22 says "For false christs and false prophets will rise and show signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect."

    Careful of duplicate Christs. Only one who saves.
    Goodnight.

  • Tue Dec 30, 2008 11:36 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Delight - "Provoked? Why are you feeling provoked?"

    Constantly belittling what I say or twisting it, putting my words in my mouth, making assumptions about my thoughts or motivations, saying that I don't have any Christian friends (which is not what I said - I said I could always use more), asking if my family is rolling over in their graves (thank you for assuming that they are dead and that there have been no recent deaths in the family)... Insults and provocation.

    Maybe you do not understand what provocation is, but you should be able to realize that you are being the opposite of Christlike. You tear down people and you seem to "delight" in doing so, happily quoting Scripture for your own perverse justification rather than quoting Scripture for godly purposes. It is sickening.

  • Tue Dec 30, 2008 11:13 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Delight,

    So what if Jhil is the prophet, like Jesus, condemned by many of the contemporary human beings? And now he is teaching us how to read the scriptures properly just as Jesus thought the people how to interpret God's will.

    My point is that, after reading from so many of you, I realized that all of us here developed a strong sense of what God is, and what is God's will. I don't think any of us would be able to persuade the other to abandon our beliefs of God. On the surface, it almost seems like we all deem ourselves to be right, to be the prophet. I hope, we, myself included, would learn how to fight this pride and conquer another of God's test of humility.

  • Tue Dec 30, 2008 11:09 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Annotation on last post:

    John 16:8 "And when He (the Holy Spirit) has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: of sin, because they do not believe in Me..."

    Provoked? Why are you feeling provoked?

  • Tue Dec 30, 2008 11:09 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Believer,

    I don't feel very good myself about the post I made. But my point was scriptures cannot be taken for their face value but has to be interpreted from our contemporary wisdom in order to absorb it's true value.

    It doesn't make sense when you read that a woman's hand should be chopped off just because she interfered her husband's argument. The magic behind the bible is that these stories are timeless. God, being God, was so smart that he created a book that would apply to every human being in every time line. No book could have achieved that because every book has a specific setting.

    The bible is magical in the sense that whenever any human being reads the bible irrespective of location and time, he/she would be able to absorb the wisdom of God's words through his/her contemporary wisdom. Hence we ought not to take the scripture for its literal meaning, as in "chopping off her hands" might not literally mean "chopping off her hands". But instead the moral of the story could be applied in daily situations.

    And this is truly beautiful!

  • Tue Dec 30, 2008 11:07 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Delight - For all your claims of Christianity, all your attempts to provoke and insult are not very Christlike. You seem to enjoy it, even. It is beyond sad.

  • Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:40 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Diffuse the issue all you want, no scriptural support is no scriptural support, I get it.
    How many Christians in your life right now embrace your newfound belief on God and homosexuality?

    I think you mentioned,jh, you didn't have any Christian friends you could talk to, that's why you would like to make Christian friends by posting here at CP. Good job. You also came from a Missionary family, but wasn't clear on denomination, are they rolling over in their graves?

    Satan doesn't think Christians should judge sin either...let alone SAY something is a sin...or worse, TELL them that they are sinning. God forbid...they'll never come to Christ, now!
    (sarcasm intended)

    "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him."

    Are you keeping His word?

  • Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:08 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    believer - "the baby in this case being God's original and only design for marriage."

    I understand what you're saying. My only disagreement is the "and only" part. I don't see the language in those verses to support that limitation.

    Delight - I have nothing new for you. Every question you've asked of me can be answered by looking at my past posts. If you have something new to ask, go look through my posts. If you can't find the answer, read through them again (I'm sorry if you have to do a little bit of work and actually read for a change). If you still can't find the answer, then go ahead and ask.

    I am not a false teacher, and labeling people as such when you happen to disagree with them on anything is about as self-righteous as you can get. You are a hypocrite who values being right over being Scriptural.

  • Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:30 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Hey Forgiven, thanks for the thought, you make me smile. Time to dust off; like I've said before it is indeed a character flaw to beat dead horses even if only metaphorically; guilty as charged. Hope your family gets well soon and you don't get the bug.


    Bryan...just another thought;

    Remember (we) the world crucified Christ. He wasn't popular.

    Think about the words of Jesus:

    "The world cannot hate you, but it hates Me because I testify of it that its works are evil".

    No one wants to hear the words you are a sinner but the one that is truly seeking what Christ offers to us goes on to repent and live.

    What good is it not to acknowledge our true condition before God?

    True peace only comes through knowing that we are lost and the realization that God has a plan to redeem us, if we will first believe.

  • Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:16 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Delight,
    Hey if you think you have a shot...go for it. Just remember to do a little dusting when it's time. Of course then throwing in your 2 cents every now and again is a good thing.

    Mormons and Cults, huh? Not too shabby.

    Christmas was long, but nice. Now the kids are sick, though.

  • Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:04 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    bryan, what point are you trying to make or are you just trying to justify rejecting what God teaches in His Word about marriage and sexual intimacy? To be honest it appears to me that you are looking for excuses and not answers?

  • Tue Dec 30, 2008 8:58 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Hey Forgiven,

    Christmas was really good! Thanks for asking and I hope yours was great, too.

    Yeah, I know I should give it up with jh; I notice Believer is not saying a lot directly to him and who knows where Steiner went, bless his soul and now you've gone to a new post. I've been reading them, just not commenting much.

    I just have a real difficulty with false teachers, I've helped convert some out of the lies of Mormonism and New Age cults by sticking with it...I'm beginning to think that once a person has tasted the goodness of God, then rejects His Word, that the only thing left is to crucify Christ again.(Hebrews 6:6)

    What do you think Jude meant when in speaking about false teachers:

    "And on some have compassion, making a distinction but others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire, hating even the garment defiled by the flesh." Hmmm.

  • Tue Dec 30, 2008 8:52 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Bryan,

    There are a lot of things I don't like about God, especially if I contrast Him with the 'God of my Dreams' that exists only within the mind.

    You do not conceive God because you have a preconcieved notion of Who He might be.
    You desire peace at any price and God of the Bible says we will have tribulation here.
    It's not a trendy message:

    God loves us with 'jealous' love; the first Scripture you quote is regarding what idol worshippers do; much like you may feel if your boyfirnd is in bed with another. Think about it.

    Secondly, you quote out the law and the law only points to our sin. We don't like our sin, we try to hide from Light and God is Light, He is holy and we are to walk in His Holiness and help others to see the sin that is separating us from God.

    The God you mentioned earlier is a God that provides a state of mind and not an actual destination. A dream life not an eternal, physcial life with Christ.

    It comes down Bryan, IS God calling or drawing you to Him right now?

    If so, then He will complete His work and you will come to know Him as a person.
    don't make the mistake of judging Jesus by His people as so many often do and without understanding. He comes into our lives by invitation only but He draws you first by softening your heart toward repentence. (another unpopular concept; repentance.)
    As far as our witness here, please understand we live in times where people are struggling and there are ugly things going on, the bible warns of a falling away from the faith in the last days. The church must be doctrinally pure and brothers need correction about false teaching. The argument went on far too long, for that I apologize for my part.

  • Tue Dec 30, 2008 7:58 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    "Am I going to regret doing this?" "YES!"

    Isiah 66:17
    "They sanctify themselves and purify themselves in the gardens behind one tree in the midst, eating swine's flesh and the abomination and the mouse, shall be consumed together, saith the LORD"

    Deuteronomy 25:11-12
    "If two men are fighting and the wife of one of them comes to the rescue of the husband from her assailant and she reaches out and seizes his private parts, you shall cut off her hand. Show her no pity."

    Deuteronomy 23:2
    "A b*stard shall not entre into the congregation of the LORD; even to his tenth generation shall he not enter into the congregation of the Lord.

    Leviticus 11:20
    "All flying insects that creep on fours shall be an abomination to you."

    "So why are you doing this? Going against your values."
    "Because your followers are telling me that You are not what I conceive you to be. That you're not the perfect God whom I see you as. That you command without reason, punish without compassion. Perhaps I should open my eyes to the scriptures and find this "new" You. I am sorry."

  • Tue Dec 30, 2008 6:48 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Hey Delight,
    How was your Christmas? You still going toe-toe with jh....I really don't see him changing his stance any time soon. Come on over and get into another conversation in another post.

  • Tue Dec 30, 2008 6:41 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    " I have supported every single one of my beliefs with Scripture."

    No, you haven't! Which Scripture allows for homosexual christians?


    "A false teacher would eventually get caught up in contradictions that he/she would be unable to resolve."

    You have ignored, not resolved the issue of the Nature of God and His supposed negligence for not specifically pointing to same-sex marriage, so that homosexuals wouldn't be fornicating before marriage; leaving marriage for government to enact on the part of homosexuals.

    "I have pointed out more than a few times that you are ignoring Scripture that contradicts what you say."

    What Scripture did you contradict me with? It's not 'scripture' your little stories about your cult of Attis, nor is it 'scripture' when you read into the absense of direct language permission for sin.

    You dogmatically assert your newfound belief and have vacated sound doctrine:

    "They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us."

  • Tue Dec 30, 2008 5:53 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    jh- I've quoted God honoring Christians, we are to judge sin and let God do the punishing. That would also be a unanimious admonishment to you from 5 Christians on this post.

    What am I supposed to say to God when I get to heaven?
    GOD: "Why didn't you say anything?"
    ME: "I tried, but so many Christians already believed it."
    GOD: "Why do you think they call it TRADITIONAL belief?"
    ME: "They didn't like what I had to say."

    We are speaking about homosexuality here with this "dialog" between you and God? And...God wants you to tell them homosexuality is A-okay. But you couldn't get your message out because Christians already understood it to be a sin? Is this what you're saying?

    God NEEDS you to speak on this...is this "new revelation"; God is pro-homosexual now and needs you like Isaiah to speak out? How highly you must think of yourself! Speaking for God! WoW, what 'service' you give to God, putting words into His mouth!

    We don't call it a traditional belief (you do), we call that Scriptural truth taken straight from the pages of Scripture. God has said and it is written:

    Lev 18:22 "You shall not lie with a male as with a woman. It is an abomination."

    Rom 1:27 "Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due'

    1Cr 6:9,10 "Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God."
    Rev 21:27 "But there shall by no means enter it (New Jerusalem) anything that defiles, or causes an abomination or a lie, but only those who are written in the Lamb's Book of Life."

    I think God has spoken well of what He considers homosexuality. These are not ambiguous statements. You don't have any Scripture to support God's acceptance of homosexuality with the same authority which God has spoken AGAINST IT. But this doesn't seem to bother you.
    jh-you are on the thin branch of false teaching and continuing your argument and your twisted logic and puts you in grave danger with God:

    2Pe 2:1 "But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction."

    Jude 1:3,4 "For certain men have crept in unnoticed, who long ago were marked out for this condemnation, ungodly men, who turn the GRACE of our God into LEWDNESS and DENY the only Lord God and our Lord Jesus Christ. Beloved, while I was very diligent to write to you concerning our common salvation, I found it necessary to write to you exhorting you to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints.

  • Tue Dec 30, 2008 4:06 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    bryan, you are absolutely right the Bible has been misused to support views which are totally contrary to the Word of God, but here's the catch in all the issues you mentioned the Bible was not silent when it came to the truth in these matters, it was just that people refused to see the truth. But when it comes to marriage and sexual intimacy the Bible is plain and clear as to God's original and only design for both of those and unlike the issues you shared, the Bible is completely silent with regard to presenting any alternatives to either of those issues.

  • Tue Dec 30, 2008 3:59 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    jh, I thought this site had dried up, but yes the primary issue was divorce but lets be careful we don't throw out the baby with the bath water, the baby in this case being God's original and only design for marriage.

  • Tue Dec 30, 2008 3:15 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    *Fogive me father for I am about to sin*

    50 years ago, the bible was used to justify slavery. A couple of centuries ago, the bible was used to justify the persecution of women.

    So, for God's sake do not speak of the bible as the absolute truth for when you read the bible, regardless of how objective the words are, you read and hence interpret those words. You infuse your bias, your perception and your wisdom into it.

    The bible was used to justify an array of evil that I dare not even imagine in the 21st century.

    Both of you, in fact everyone here, reads the bible for what we want to read. We take phrases that reinforce our views, and interpret those that don't differently.

    Religion is not all about scripture, God is not all about scripture. Using scripture to harm, to hate, and to persecute his creations - I cannot imagine His disappointment. (the last sentence is probably my bias, and he is probably not disappointed.)

  • Tue Dec 30, 2008 3:08 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Delight - By the way, I thought I should point out that Matthew 7:2 ALSO supports what I've said about sin and judgment being subjective:

    "and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you"

    If you believe picking your nose is a sin and you judge others for picking their noses, then you'll be judged for picking your nose.

  • Tue Dec 30, 2008 3:04 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Delight -
    "It is talking fully outright judging not merely verbally speaking"
    "We haven't judged anyone until we carry out a penalty for the accused,"

    I don't see anything in Matthew 7:1-6 about judging requiring penalties in order to be "judging" unless you're somehow interpreting the word "measure" as a penalty rather than actual measures (standards or rules used to judge). If I judge a height of something to be 2 feet tall using a measuring tape, I'm making a determination that has no penalty. Judges do not carry out the penalties - they say what the penalty should be. Condemning others is judging - plain and simple.

    "what does a judge in a court of law do?"

    I thought it was amusing that you talk down to my use of outside references when they don't fit your views, but you're more than happy to use them or quote other people using them otherwise.

  • Tue Dec 30, 2008 2:44 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Delight - "I have every right to do just that and expose false teaching!"

    I agreed with steiner on that - that we can judge those in the church, and not those outside the church. As far as false teaching goes, that's your interpretation. I have supported every single one of my beliefs with Scripture. A false teacher would eventually get caught up in contradictions that he/she would be unable to resolve. I have pointed out more than a few times that you are ignoring Scripture that contradicts what you say.

    "The Christians you have put off..."

    I see, so 5 people disagree with me, and that must make me wrong? Is that the kind of criteria you use for believing in doctrine - if enough people agree with an idea, it's right? Think about how ridiculous that is. I could easily go out and invite 100 people who believe the same thing to come onto this forum and support what I say and you would be outnumbered 5 to 100. But I don't, because numbers do not make ANY idea any MORE or any LESS Scriptural.

    "You put a call out to Bryan and Matucon to get into a doctrinal discussion with them."

    A discussion that has nothing to do with homosexuality, and I don't recall you disagreeing with what I posted to them, so why are you bringing them up?

    "You also requested early on to personally e-mail people on these posts."

    Yes, because there were enough tangents going on that it was becoming hard to read and respond (I notice you happily ignored that I also suggested a different type of PUBLIC forum that better suited multiple simultaneous discussions.). Yet, I'm still here...

    "No doubt to correct us..."

    Thank you for assuming that you know my every thought and my every motivation.

    "There is no context of idolatry only in Romans 1 but unbelief overall,"

    They exchanged the truth of God for a lie. They didn't believe in God - they believed in a false idol. Paul did not call the worshippers homosexuals, he talked about the homosexual acts. The worshippers worshipped a fertility goddess/god and their homosexual acts were done for the purpose of idol worship. You are taking a very clear example and obfuscating it for your purposes.

    "Remember Lev 18 and 1Cor 6:9?"

    You mean 1 Corinthians 6:9 as in the one that doesn't really condemn homosexuality, but you insist on using it because you feel like the NIV translation is more accurate than the original text? And the verse from a list of laws that you apparently feel okay with disobeying some of? I have gone into detail on each of these verses and you have nothing to say except repeat your original belief.

    "How you can separate homosexuality as something God approves of, NOW that's something!"

    Because of what Jesus defines as sin.

    "but insist on your own context,"

    I have explained my beliefs in detail. You have not bothered to explain yours - you simply repeat your mantra over and over again, as if repetition will be a substitute for the gaps.

  • Tue Dec 30, 2008 2:27 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Bryan,

    With all due respect, you seem like a person not keen on absolute truth as you have said you quit reading your Bible because you were unable to comprehend it.

    There are false teachers out in the world that Paul tells us we must expose. Your idea of being nice, just going with the flow, just agree to disagree doesn't have Biblical support.

    And, we are talking the Bible which is very clear on exposing lies that entrap folks into slavery to sin. Maybe you didn't get to Paul's writings to the Church?

    If it sounds like bickering to you, then you are free to read elsewhere something more to your liking.

  • Tue Dec 30, 2008 2:19 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    ON JUDGING THOSE OUTSIDE THE CHURCH: Here, jh is an answer to your accusation to Steiner for judging those outside the church, it answers it beautifully.

    This is a quote from forsaltnlight on the thread; Anti-theist: Christianity is Bad for the world. I don't think he/she will mind having it quoted here:

    What do you make of Matthew 7:6?

    I think Matt 7:6 is driving home the verses preceding 7:6
    It is talking fully outright judging not merely verbally speaking. Here is a better explanation.

    The other most incorrectly quoted liberal scripture is when a Christian is accused of judging when they speak of what sin is. Speaking God's Word and giving a description of sin is not judging. To those people I say, " what does a judge in a court of law do? He not only finds to the accused guilty, but he assigns the appropriate punishment and appoints someone to carry it out. Defining sin is far from judging, never let the devil's worker shut you up and prevent you from speaking God's Word with that trick.
    The devil has a multitude of lies and he always gives a partial truth that is actually a deceptive lie. Just as he did Adam and Eve in the garden. The devil also tried that same strategy on Jesus a couple of times and Jesus always responded with, It is written from His Word. We should do the same.
    Eph 5:10-14
    11 Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them.

    We haven't judged anyone until we carry out a penalty for the accused, in the same manner as a judge carries it out and also the same way the one and only true Holy Judge will do to all those who reject his son.

  • Tue Dec 30, 2008 2:11 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Come on my fellow friends!!!

    This is starting to go into outright bickering, condemnation of others' faith and persecution of beliefs.

    In my opinion, it's alright to share your opinions and your views, but please refrain from letting anger from affecting your rationality. Afterall is anger not a sin?

    Love!
    Bryan.

  • Tue Dec 30, 2008 1:07 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    What does a False Teacher look like?
    Paul told us to "judge those inside the church", which you are claiming.
    I have every right to do just that and expose false teaching!

    A false teacher will defend his belief as you do. He will attack other Christians for holding what he calls 'traditional beliefs'.A false teacher will use many words and other texts to make his argument and twist scripture. He will be full of self righteousness (how else can you believe you are "preaching the Word") and argue against the nature of God.

    The Christians you have put off (1) Prophet, by judging him to be prideful right off the bat. (2)Myself, (3) Believer, who is stubbornly patient and very kind, (4) the same for Forgiven who tried to point you to truth, (5) Steiner. How many "amen" brothers? 0 zero, nada. This is an older post, not many others here but Steiner and me. You have been corrected by everyone of these Christians and it must take a giant leap of pride to think you are right and everyone else is wrong in the face of this. We are warned that in the last days false teachers would arise...and what I hear from you is false teaching. Do not ignore the warning.

    "what am I supposed to say when I get to heaven?"
    How about I'm sorry I got in the way of setting homosexuals free from their sin against you God. In which case, He may say to you 'depart from me'.

    You put a call out to Bryan and Matucon to get into a doctrinal discussion with them. You also requested early on to personally e-mail people on these posts. No doubt to correct us on our 'traditional' thinking and to heartily approve of the sins of the others. (Romans 1:32). Your untraditional views on homosexuality has put you here on this post to affect the discussion and give false hope to those who wish to continue in sin.

    There is no context of idolatry only in Romans 1 but unbelief overall, in which idolatry is just one sin. If temple homosexuals are performing homosexual acts...how are the acts themselves not condemned by God in the first place? Remember Lev 18 and 1Cor 6:9? No Scripture speaks of the acceptability of homosexual acts and refers to them only as related to unbelief and spiritual death. How you can separate homosexuality as something God approves of, NOW that's something!

    I didn't include homosexuality in my quote to you, just the list of sins directly following the verse regarding homosexuals (Unrighteous Unbelievers) being given over. You're being deliberately OBTUSE.

    You look for no common ground among brothers but insist on your own context, your understanding, your "interpretation", your knowledge exclusive from the knowledge and character of God, which you malign by accusing Him of a lack of oversight and diligence in addressing homosexual marriage.

    "But if you are without chastening, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons..."
    God always says it best!

  • Tue Dec 30, 2008 12:53 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    steiner - "Do you not judge those who are within the church?"

    Yes, you do, but you are passing judgment on those outside of the church. You are implying that because YOU believe something to be a sin, that another person cannot completely repent and become a Christian in the church unless they conform to what YOU believe. That is passing judgment on those outside the church.

    You do not seem to be talking about judging those within the church already.

    If you want to judge ME for something, that's fine. My beliefs are solidly found throughout all of Scripture, not just on pieces of it.

  • Tue Dec 30, 2008 12:07 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    steiner - "I am not aware of any scripture that mentions that Jesus did not uphold the law regarding unclean foods."

    Actually, I referenced scripture in my previous post where Jesus declared that no food was unclean. The Pharisees were talking about unwashed hands, but Jesus expanded it into "no food is unclean." That's a pretty direct contradiction to the unclean foods mentioned in Deuteronomy 14:3-21.

    Jesus also broke the 4th commandment by "working" on the Sabbath (which the Pharisees were also quick to point out in order to try to judge him).

    "...they arrogantly thought that they were free to continue sinning..."

    You misjudge what I am saying. I am not advocating for the practice of sin.

    I have repeatedly said that while I believe you CAN -technically- continue sinning afterwards, it doesn't really reflect true repentance, which is a requirement for understanding and accepting the gift of salvation. True repentance requires a change of heart. If someone is buying into the "cheap grace" salvation that believer has mentioned a few times before, then they're probably not really repenting. Just like sin comes from the heart, true repentance also has to come from the heart, because it is about changing your attitude and choosing NOT to sin. Yes, we can fall back into sin, but ultimately, someone who has truly repented will try to correct their ways.

    Again, I am not advocating the practice of sin, nor am I saying that sin does not exist (I have said repeatedly that it does, which you and Delight both seem to glaze over). What I -am- talking about is the definition of sin, and whether or not homosexuality falls into that category.

    I do not feel that there is Scriptural support for a global condemnation of homosexuality - there is only traditional belief. You seem to be searching for Scripture that supports your traditional belief while ignoring all of Scripture that contradicts your belief. I have pointed out several Scriptures that do contradict your belief, and you ignore them. So far, I have had no problems defending what I believe. You seem to be unable to defend against what I am pointing out, and instead try to attack my belief. At some point, hopefully you realize that my belief is in harmony with the rest of Scripture, because there is no single piece of Scripture that has not agreed with what I have said already.

  • Tue Dec 30, 2008 12:07 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    PART 1:
    Delight - "I think I was right on the very first post I wrote to you...'you do not know the Author'."

    Attacking my relationship with God does not make your belief any stronger.

    "that all the Christians here vehemently oppose you"

    All the Christians as in steiner and yourself? There are some that disagree with me, but you and steiner are the only ones that "vehemently opposing" me, and both of you do not seem to be able to defend your beliefs very well, and instead of thinking about all the other Scripture I point out, you choose to attack me instead.

    "You don't know what sin is"

    Like I said, I'm quoting Jesus and Paul in my definitions. You're choosing to ignore them.

    "attempting to build a case against God and His people"

    I am not building a case against Christians, MUCH less God. Why would I build a case against the One that I serve? Talk about nonsensical! :)

    No, I am building a case against a specific, traditional, NON-SCRIPTURAL idea that you insist on defending. If you feel like you can judge the whole of me, my heart, and my relationship to God based on my belief about one specific idea, and completely ignore the rest of what I say, go ahead.

    "What is even more puzzling, searching out the Scripture to defend someone else's sin."

    It is puzzling because you have hardened your heart to the point where you do not see yourself searching out Scripture and pulling it out of context in order to support a traditional belief. Because I have no personal stake in this specific topic, it's easier for me to put aside the need to be right. When a particular belief becomes so strong, people have personal stake in being right. You are trying to be right. I am trying to be Scriptural.

    "What are your motives in seeking out the unbelievers here and making your case for their sin so they will not be able to repent?"

    Seeking out the unbelievers? Did I miss something? Did I post an advertisement in a magazine: "Unbelievers, come to this Christian discussion forum so I can absolve you of all your sins, no matter WHAT they are, for I am God!"

    Come on, be realistic. We are Christians having a discussion about doctrine. It is an Internet forum open to everyone, but is probably frequented most by Christians. I have no say in who gets to read, nor have I ever invited anyone to this forum, or even linked to it.

    What is my motive? My motive is to prevent other Christians from preaching condemnation based solely on traditional belief and supporting that belief by cherry-picking the Bible.

  • Tue Dec 30, 2008 12:06 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    PART 2: (for Delight)
    What am I supposed to say to God when I get to heaven?
    GOD: "Why didn't you say anything?"
    ME: "I tried, but so many Christians already believed it."
    GOD: "Why do you think they call it TRADITIONAL belief?"
    ME: "They didn't like what I had to say."
    GOD: "Preach the Word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage-with great patience and careful instruction. For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths. But you, keep your head in all situations, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, discharge all the duties of your ministry."

    What is your motive for ignoring so much Scripture and believing in this specific myth?
    What is your motive for ignoring what Paul says about not judging others?
    What is your motive for ignoring how Jesus defines sin?
    What is your motive for ignoring how Paul echoes Jesus' definition of sin?
    What is your motive for ignoring context?

    "Not separate, included also in unbelief are all the other sins commited in unrighteousness"

    That's interesting. I don't see homosexuality mentioned in the verses you quoted. It's almost like it SHOULD be in that list, but instead, it is separated out, as if it were in some other context. If you want to quote all of Romans 1, go ahead - it only supports what I've said. The only way you can support your belief with Romans 1 is to take the homosexual acts out of the context of idolatry and then try to tie them to the list of other evils that they performed in their idol worship.

  • Tue Dec 30, 2008 11:51 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    jh-"If you want to separate out the homosexual behavior from its rightful context, again, that's your call."

    Not separate, included also in unbelief are all the other sins commited in unrighteousnes:

    Rom 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting;


    Rom 1:29 being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers,

    Rom 1:30 backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,

    Rom 1:31 undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving, [fn] unmerciful;

    Rom 1:32 who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them.

    WHAT IS HOMOSEXUALITY IN IT'S "RIGHTFUL" CONTEXT?????

  • Tue Dec 30, 2008 11:15 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    "godly motivations that are in our hearts"

    What are your motives for questioning God's Word?
    What are your motives to have your hand against every Christian here on these boards?
    What are your motives in seeking out the unbelievers here and making your case for their sin so they will not be able to repent?

    Something other than Godly.

    Godly motives agree with God, His Nature, His word and His people to be of one mind. YOU may think you have godly motives but from the evidence of all the words you have written, your motives are highly suspect.

    You certainly have a motivation, but it has nothing to do with defending the Gospel.

  • Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:53 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    I always get a suspicious of folks who search out the Scriptures as you do, jh, trying to find the loophole for sin. What is even more puzzling, searching out the Scripture to defend someone else's sin.

    Jesus said, "You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind..."

    These are the avenues through which the Holy Spirit works through man to convict him of sin, not the fleshly heart alone. All these must be renewed through the power of the Holy Spirit.
    "...for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure."

    Of equal importance in Scripture, is that Christians be of one mind and that is the Mind of christ: "For "who has known the mind of the LORD that he may instruct Him?" But we have the mind of Christ."

    From what is written here, it is clear to me that you do not have the mind of Christ. You do not know the Nature of God through the Holy Spirit; all it appears is you have a head knowledge and no personal experience of the Holy Spirit to know God as He has revealed Himself. You don't know what sin is and you slander the nature of God through your suppositions and foolish argument. You would think it would be a warning flag to you that all the Christians here vehemently oppose you as you present yourself as a Christian but malign the Word of God. But you blithely ignore and continue with your nonsensical arguments, attempting to build a case against God and His people.

    I think I was right on the very first post I wrote to you...'you do not know the Author'.

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