A pro-gay rights group published a full-page ad in The Salt Lake Tribune on Thursday to respond to an earlier ad by a religious liberty group that condemned the mob "violence and intimidation" directed against the Mormon church and other Proposition 8 supporters.
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(Photo: AP Images / Gus Ruelas)People turn out for marriage equality at Los Angeles City Hall as part of a 'National Day of Action' in response to the recent passage of Proposition 8 which repeals the right of same sex couples to marry in California through a changes to the state constitution, Saturday, Nov. 15, 2008, in Los Angeles.
Truth Wins Out, based in Brooklyn, N.Y., ran a counter ad, entitled "Lies in the name of the Lord," stating: "Noting could be further from the truth. Those demonstrations across the country were remarkably peaceful and were a vivid example of Americans exercising their free speech rights, and we think it's inexcusable for anyone to misrepresent these protests for political gain."
The pro-gay ad was in response to a full-page ad by the Becket Fund for Religious Liberty that ran in The New York Times last Friday. The ad, entitled "No Mob Violence," deplored the violent protests that have ensued following the passage of a California ban on same-sex marriage.
It was signed by over a dozen over religious leaders, lawyers and theologians, who decried "the violence and intimidation being directed against the LDS (The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints) or 'Mormon' church, and other religious organizations - and even against individual believers - simply because they supported Proposition 8."
In the concluding paragraph of the Becket Fund ad, the group acknowledged although there were "fundamental disagreements" among them, they were willing to unite across faith lines to commit "to exposing and publicly shaming anyone who resorts to the rhetoric of anti-religious bigotry - against any faith, on any side of any cause, for any reason."
Signers of the letter included Kevin J. “Seamus” Hasson of the Becket Fund of Religious Liberty, Richard Cizik of National Association of Evangelicals, Chuck Colson of Prison Fellowship and William Donohue of The Catholic League.
The Washington, D.C.-based Becket Fund concurrently launched NoMobVeto.org, a website where readers could endorse the ad and take a stand for the right of religious people to participate in the electoral process without fear and intimidation from anti-religious bigotry.
In weeks following the passage of Proposition 8, opponents of the measure held numerous protests targeting supporters of the ban. While many of the protests were peaceful, some evidenced hate and intimidation.
Over 2,000 Proposition 8 opponents protested outside the Mormon temple in Los Angeles, chanting "Mormon scum." Another group picketed at megachurch Saddleback Church, holding signs reading "Purpose-Driven Hate," a play on Pastor Rick Warren’s book, Purpose Driven Life. Calvary Chapel in Chino Hills was spray painted and the members' cars were vandalized.
"There was not just one instance of vandalism," Brian Brown, executive director of National Organization for Marriage, told the Salt Lake Tribune.
"I was there in Westwood, [Calif. at the LDS temple protest]. I saw signs saying, 'Mormon scum,' and others encouraging the sort of hatred and violence we condemned. There have been fairly widespread attempts at intimidation, like calling Proposition 8 supporters at 2 a.m. and screaming into the phone."
The Mormon church has been a target by gay rights protesters because its members have donated tens of millions of dollars toward the Yes on 8 campaign.
The Becket Fund has maintained that their ad doesn't denounce "peaceful" demonstrations. Continue >>
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"physical law of opposite attract like repel"
And is it so hard to believe that God created certain men who are attracted to men? Well afterall, God loves diversity, does he not?
MMM, the way you put it no.
The spirit of revelation according to Gods word ,not by anyones else philosphy, Sir, and I know that you are a man and you were design to naturally adapt to a certain physical law of opposite attract like repel, and you have a conscious and will to understand that principle Sir.
Gr8, who is to say their interpretation was not of God and it is you who has been mislead? Sadly, we won't know till heaven.
No matter what interpretation or translation, the spirit of revelation should come from the same spirit, and if that spirit flowing from that person is not of God, then Sir, you are being totally mislead.
Mike, you are a brilliant young man, and it is wonderful that you had correspondends with biblicalscholars, however if they are using the bible responds to support your point of view of this sin, it is wise to find someone who can give you a more righteous interpretation of what GOD WANTS TO TELL YOU IN HIS WORD.
Elbib, prophet, and Bryan...what a shame that you do not honestly encourage each other to be better christians, but rather pat each other on the back and congratulate each other for putting down the queer. Shame on all of you. You truly disgrace God in your attempts to preach his word.
Bryan90: Do you think Jesus was full of hate when he called the Pharisees "hypocrites, whited walls, children of Satan, enemies of righteousness, blind, full of dead men's bones and of all uncleanness, within full of hypocrisy and iniquity, and who shed the blood of the prophets?" I just call it as you portray it. You think that you people have cornered the market on love, but in reality, you are so far removed from it. Your concept of love is skewed. Show me the Scripture where you said, in more than one place, that God loves Lucifer. Or are you pretending again to be something your not? Prove yourself worthy. If you can.
"what Bible are you reading from"
Well obviously we have different interpretations of the bible.
I might not be the best judge in determening other people's emotions. But take Prophet as an example. Most of his posts (there might be some exceptions), when he rebukes, he rebukes in peace, instead of hate. He disagrees by just wording, but not scolding or admonishing. For that, I admire him.
Bryan90: For heaven's sake, what Bible are you reading from. I challenge you to find me one Scripture where God declares that He loves Lucifer. You are absolutely ignorant to the Word of the Lord and, yet speak and declare as if you know. A fool is always considered wise until he opens his mouth, then he is exposed. If God loves Lucifer as you state, then, why has He already judged him to be cast into hell? God loves, but he still pronounces judgment to the disobedient.
Bryan90: Dear God Bryan, is the work "hate" all you homosexuals ever able to say? There is a big difference between hate (anger) and rebuke, or hate and disagreement, or hate and exposition. Everytime someone says something you don't like it's always labeled as hate. It is so childish and immature. Furthermore, where do you get off by saying that someone was called a devil? If you read the thread you will find that was an insinuated claim by your fellow toward my declaration. Yet,I never called anyone a devil. This is so typical of how you guys always take things out of context. Is it any wander people get frustrated with people like you. Unbelievable!
I sense so much hatred and anger in some of the posts here.
I understand if you don't agree with my interpretations or my relationship with God. But please, hate not, not even those whom you deem to be the devil. For do not forget that is it not what God would wish to see. He himself, has never expressed hatred towards the Devil. (and don't try to use one or two phrases from Scripture to prove this wrong.. Because for every one phrase condemning the devil, there are two more saying how much God loves Lucifer.)
I have been called narrow minded. Amen and amen! I embrace that. And those who call me that are broad minded, to which they are also so proud.
"Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.'
I'm glad I found the narrow way. I pray others would too.
God forgive those who trespass against you in their willfull sin. Deliver them from evil. Let grace lead them from the road of destruction.
Mike: You and your kind are so good at sarcasm and exageration. The pride is on your part. Man being helpmate to man. Lying together in your abominable state. Promoting your sinfulness. Blind to the corruption and immorality of the lifestyle that you promote. You mock God as you conjure up your own doctrine through critical thinking and then act as if God accepts such rubbish. His Word is to be obeyed, not determined based on your own suppositions. Because I stand for the truth of God's Word does not indicate pride. I'm not attempting to promote and justify a sinful lifestyle as you do. Your sin will find you out.
Elbib, please. You speak as if I am the devil incarnate, I hardly give myself that much credit, not to mention, your sin of pride is fairly bold as well (refusing to admit you could possibly be wrong with your biblical interpretation.)
Prophet, do not pray that your will be done, but rather, that God's will be done. You have shown your eyes are closed pretty tight, so you should really focus on helping yourself before you even think you're qualified to help others.
Prophet: Don't let these who deceive themselves from the truth weary you. God's Word is secondary to their own notions. You can present the truth to them until your blue in the face and they will not see it, because they can't. They are only here to spill their poison of lies to convince whoever they may in justifying their wrong. You see the truth, hold fast to it. These are the last days. Men will be lovers of themselves. Sodom and Gommorah is an example.
Lord, help those who are in bondage to such a sinful lifestlye. Let your Spirit come upon them and convict them. Open their eyes. Do not let your children fall, but hold them up, and deliver them.
Mike,
I know what you mean. That's why I don't preach what I don't practice.
Bryan, thank you. Its unfortunate that many call themselves Christians but cannot practice what they preach!
Homosexuality is a sin. And I pray that those who willfully involve themselves in that lifestyle will feel the conviction of the Holy Spirit and turn from their sin. God is holy, and He cannot abide sin in His presence. Sin separates us from Him.
"But I have failed God. He told me to simply speak the truth...not to argue. I need to get back to that "
So have I prophet.. So have I....
But I have failed God. He told me to simply speak the truth...not to argue. I need to get back to that
bryan,
"Do not base your faith on other people's". Amen. Good words! That's how I live my life. I base my faith on the Bible. The Bible shows me how to live, what to do, and what is not acceptable. I live my life accordingly. If I see my brother sinning, I am compelled by love to warn him or her. If they refuse to listen, they alone will bear the consequences.
I will not let anyone's misguided faith control my own. And I will not let their false doctrines gain root in my own life. I will live a life of holiness. If others find it repulsing, then it shows that their fruit is rotten, and they do not serve the True God. My relationship with God is between me and Him. And when He tells me to do or say something, though I am condemned by man, my spirit rejoices in the fact that I am persecuted for His name's sake.
Mike,
I was just reading your comments! Stay strong Mike! You're not the only one who thinks that God created us for a reason!
And my very devoted Protestant Mom told me something I found very wise, "Do not base your faith on other people's". So I hope you don't let those who "use God's name" to condemn you ruin your relationship with God. Your relationship with God is yours alone and let no one take that away from you!
No, you share your view of the truth and completely refuse to admit that the Bible can be interpreted.
Mike,
And I have shared the truth. But you refuse to listen because your heart is hardened.
Actually Prophet, can you show me phrases where the Bible condemns homosexuality?
I believe the Bible has stated that "sodomy" is a sin, and that men lying with men is a sin. But the bible also said that men having sex with women for non-procreation purposes is also a sin.
Basically, based on my interpretation, ALL sex that are not done for procreation purposes are not "recommended" by God.
The Bible NEVER said anything about men loving men or women loving women as a sin. Hence, if you find it justified to ban Gay Marriages, would it not also follow that all marriages that engage in non-procreational sex be banned?
Prophet, you're wasting your time and attempting to spin in circles. I have presented my views and my beliefs but its clear you are not capable of having an actual discussion because you have your blinders on.
Is that anymore childish than saying "uh uh. That's not what He said." (It is rather disturbing that that is what Satan said to Eve in the garden and that he is still using that same line today. And even more disturbing that people still believe it.)
No, you go with the interpretation that makes the most sense to you. Saying "well that's what the Bible says and you cant argue that" is childish.
So I go by what the Bible says. Homosexuality is a sin.
Right, which means that in all truth, no one knows for sure which side it was, but it comes down to our beliefs (after all, isn't that what faith is?)
You speak of people who have done historical studies of Romans and Corinthians, and say that it was about orgies. And I can find people who have done historical studies of Romans and Corinthians and say that it was about homosexuality.
And you claim that men sleeping with men isn't a sin.
The issue is, people like yourself throw out all of Lev, but save one verse because it suits your point. You translate effeminate to mean gay, which is a flagrant stereotype. You do not look at the original, historical contexts, but read 2008 interpretations of the Bible and assume that all the men who translated them were doing so according to God's plan, and I believe strongly that with interpretation comes fallibility.
Yes, the Bible was NOT condemning gay marriages. At least directly. I doubt that was an issue back then. It just condemns homosexuality. And since homosexuality is a sin, then marriage under such sin would also be a sin.
And I think the scriptures have been horrifically twisted by lazy Christians to suit their own view that their sin is ok.
I never said there is no sin, nor have any gays I have talked to, but I think scripture has been horrifically twisted by "Christians" who are seeking their own ends: condemning a group of people based on non-historical understandings of what the Bible was really condemning (hint, it wasn't gay marriage!)
Mike,
"I have no interest in joining a group that has already made up their minds that I have lead a horrible life of sin and deprivation."
I commend you. And I have no interest in joining a group that has already made up their minds that there is no sin, and that God condones sin. Call me crazy, but I don't care what morals and opinions people have. I care what God says. And he's called me to live a life separated from sin. Actually, He's called all Christians to do so, but most are lazy and never will live to their full potential.
DP, my life has not been wrong, and the Bible should not be read simplistically. I have no interest in joining a group that has already made up their minds that I have lead a horrible life of sin and deprivation.
Mike, Jesus said that which is not for us is against us. The catch is to make sure you are part of Jesus' "us".
I am a member of a church which is made up of about 7000 people who have been "burned" by organized religion. Many stayed away from church for years because of how they were treated. So, yes...I do understand. The beginning of healing is to accept that others may be right and you may be wrong.
My guess is the 'brilliant' people you email are those who support your being gay and tell you God is OK with you and He made you that way. They even have brilliant arguements to back them up. The problem is the Bible says Satan can appear as an angel of light. If what these people are telling you is different than what is clearly written in the Bible then they are wrong.
We have people in small groups who argue that it is OK to drink alchohol. This is a true statement from a Biblical perspective. The problem is they are using it to defend them being alchoholics. Then they say they don't get drunk when their spouse says they do get drunk and others have seen them.
The deal is simple. We care enough about you to keep telling you to get back to the simplicity of the Bible and turn your back on anything which doesn't agree with what is clearly written in the Bible.
It WILL mean admitting your life has been wrong. Guess what...everyone who comes to Christ has to go there! I've been there myself (at least once or twice). The point you keep missing is it's not about us winning. We want you to win. To win you must lose.
Believer, quite honestly I do not go to a place to worship. I certainly do pray and meditate on a regular basis, but I have been extremely hurt and turned off to organized religion. As far as Bible study, a lot of it is through internet research and emailing back and forth with those I consider to be brilliant minds.
Believer, quite honestly I do not go to a place to worship. I certainly do pray and meditate on a regular basis, but I have been extremely hurt and turned off to organized religion. As far as Bible study, a lot of it is through internet research and emailing back and forth with those I consider to be brilliant minds.
mike22685, you shared a while back that you left the catholic church or should I say no longer attend catholic church, I was wondering where do you go for Bible study and worship?
mike22685, please recognize we do not have the original texts of the Bible, we only have copies of them.
DP, the Bible has been interpreted plenty of times, so in order to come like little children (who ask questions upon questions) you need to study the original texts and the historical context in which they were written (again, I have not, I don't have the wits to do that, but I don't think calling it satanic because it goes against your beliefs is intelligent.) DP, no, I do not struggle with God because of my homosexuality, although I'm sure you'd like to write it off as such. I struggle with my faith because I see awful things happen to good people. I struggle with my faith because people ignore my life experience and condemn me to hell and tell me I don't actually have a relationship with God, yet they say all that "in the name of God." I struggle with my relationship because I am a human and I sin, but I know in my heart of hearts God made me gay for a reason.
Daniel Paul,
That's a big reason why I struggle sometimes with my prayer time and study time.
I sin...so I feel guilty and don't want to read and pray...so I get weaker....and then I sin more....and the cirlce gets tighter and tighter.
"I struggle to keep my relationship with God every single day,"
The Bible talks ofter about how sin can impede our relationship with God. Did it ever occur to you that your homosexuality may be the reason you "struggle to keep" your relationship with God?
It would be a Biblical assessment. I have a friend who is stuggling with his situation and thinks God is giving him the short end. It's called coveting. He wonders why he is having such problems with his spiritual life. Well DUH!!!
"Sexual orientation as a condition wasn't even acknowleged until the late 19th century."
Where's your source?
" I do base my belief on hard, theological studies from people more brilliant than myself."
Satan is brilliant. What's your point? The Bible says to be come like little children. Little children simply believe what their father tells them. I've had 6 kids so I do have some idea there! The Bible simply says one man and one woman is marriage. A man shall leave his father and mother and cleave to his wife and the two shall become one flesh. You either simply believe it like a little child or you seek brilliant teachers who tickle your ear.
Problem being: That isn't honest! That's what you want to head because it would be easier for you to throw us out as Godless sinners, but it simply isn't true. I do believe in the Bible, I don't believe you have a correct translation, and I do base my belief on hard, theological studies from people more brilliant than myself. It is wrong of you to say that because they interpreted the Bible differently than you, they must be pushed by the devil. How do you know you are not?
I struggle to keep my relationship with God every single day, but I do not push him away because I am gay. Its extremely frustrating when you make comments that almost coax me into doing that. I can tell you, that is the devil working through you. Jesus would never say "Go on, I dare you to say you don't really love me." Shame on you!
to artm:
"I wish just one time, someone would be honest enough to say, It's not Christians that are the problem, it's God.
Be honest enough to say I don't like what God has said concerning homosexuality.
Be honest enough to say, I want God to stay out of my life and let me do what I want to.
Be honest enough to say, I reject the teachings of the Bible concerning homosexuality.
Then at least maybe I could respect them a little.
Go ahead, Just be honest about it."
Well said, i agree, i have been saying that for a while, at least be honest and say that, it would defintely garner some respect from me, I can't say i would agree but I would respect you for it. I am of the mind that you don't have to agree with me, just be honest and respectful.
To Chicago24:
"artm: When will you realize that there is nothing in the Bible about homosexuality?
Sexual orientation as a condition wasn't even acknowleged until the late 19th century.
The Bible does address certain homosexual acts, but those acts are very far removed from a loving, supportive relationship between two people of the same sex.
To say that God condemns homosexuality is like saying God condemns heterosexuality because of Biblical rules against adultery."
You are contradicting yourself, homosexual acts whether it is between two strangers or two people in a "relationship" are in fact the same thing, there is not difference. And to say the bible dosent mention homosexuality is blatently false, there are several passages in the new testament alone that mention homosexuality such as 1 Corinthians 6:9 which states " Don you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; Neither the sexually immoral nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders." This passage alone, puts homosexuality on the same plateau as adultery and sexual immorality. Don't be decieved because that is exactly what I take from what you said, I see alot of people being decieved, both believers and non believers alike...
Yea, so basically the fairies get together and attack people. Peaceful my foot. I hate demonstrations like this.
Jesus said "...for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance." In order for there to be repentance, there has to be a revealing of sin in a person (as non-Christians, and pseudo-Christians call it..."being judgemental"). There has to be someone to call sin sin. Otherwise, there can be no repentance.
"By teaching love and acceptance for all, Jesus expects us, I believe, to be accepting of all others."
I must disagree Jesus was certainly NOT accepting of all. Who drove out the moneychangers with a whip? Who called the Pharisees devils?
"Acceptance", "tolerance", and "affirming" are all code words meaning "everything is allowed. Go and do as you wish!"
"Buddy Christ" was a character in a satirical film. Jesus Messiah warns us that the way is broad and the path easy that leads to destruction.
"Usually, it was the Pharisees trying to intrap Him. "
Sounds quite like how the discussions about homosexuality start here!
Daniel,
Amen. But, as I know you know, Jesus rarely ever instigated the conversations between Him and the Pharisees. Usually, it was the Pharisees trying to intrap Him.
"- Jesus also said "If they don't listen to you, shake the dust off of your feet and move on to the next town." - referring to his first evangelical training exercise for the Apostles."
So, why did Jesus keep "correcting" the religious leaders?
Since no answer forthcoming from Phileo, let me say I do understand your frustration of seeing Christians defend over and over again the same things to those outside the church, and to those claiming to be inside. I don't believe in not defending His truth to the world in order to seem loving in the world's eye is the answer. I see nothing wrong with Christians speaking out on their faith, in fact, I'd like to see more of it. We have not given up our right of free speech because we are now Christians and some would like us to be loving and agree with them in their sin-that is just not God's way (from Jesus' example).
Unfortunately, when speaking out for God's truth the subject of sin always comes up and there is a need to call sin a sin while defending God's point of view, no matter how the prevailing culture accepts it.
I just haven't seen many outside the church coming here to CP with open hearts to hear about God's love. From what I see, they are defending their sin and it is right to call sin a sin as Jesus did.
What I hope for is that if one does come with an open heart that you are able to respond to them in the same way you admonish your brothers to do and we can all follow your example.
Also, Phileo,
If you are in answer mode; can you tell me what it was on this thread that kicked off your need to warn Christians to examine "their own speck of sin, try removing that plank from your eye in the process."
As in the last post we conversed on you either misread or didn't read the article on the homosexual advocate's efforts through the courts to overturn Prop 8 and accused Christians of going to the courts instead. And I'm wondering UN-rhetorically why there seems to be quick judgment from you over Christians talking about the issues and why you come down hard on them and think the worst of your brothers.
Phileo,
That isn't rhetoric, that is a real question. Since I've read this from you and we discussed this not long ago, I really want to know why you feel so strongly that Christians should have no say in society or politics.
Please answer without taking offense. Thank you.
DITL - your personal attack came in the form of, "This is not the first time you have said this in a post and I wonder why you don't just hang up your web name and cancel your account if you feel so strongly about it."
Perhaps you don't see it as such, but that's exactly the sort of rhetoric that is an example of how you come across in a less then Christian way.
phileo, I'm one of those 50's and 60's catholic school kids and as a result of becoming a Christian in 1971 I find it imperative that we as Christians stand firm in the defense of the Christian faith and the Word of God. Plus, let us not confuse passion and intensity for rudeness and anger and yes I know at times we are all guilty of the latter, as for DP and DITL I personally see this very seldom in their posts, yes they are passionate and firm in their views but very seldom do I find either rude or insensitive. And at times there are some posters who are totally antagonistic who are just out to pick a fight and a soft and gentle answer ain't gonna get it and in fact a firm and in your face response might be just what the doctor ordered to initially get their attention and I can say from my own personal experience that approach does indeed work at times, but I would not use that approach often and not until after much prayer.
"I know your works, that you are neither cold nor hot. I could wish you were cold or hot.
So then, because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will vomit you out of My mouth." Revelation 3:15-16.
Perhaps Phileo, it's my temperature YOU find offensive?
"And no need for a personal attack when I am simply responding to what the Holy Spirit is telling me. And if I can't gently correct my brothers and sisters in Christ, then we have truly lost our foundation and purpose in this lifetime."
Personal attack? Where?
Gently correct? Wait a minute, you said we shouldn't do that just let the Holy Spirit work in their hearts.
You are familiar with the verse in 2 Timothy 4, right? The Holy Spirit is telling you something other than what is in Scripture?
You are so ready to be offended by Christians why is that? Is that a fruit I don't know about?
DITL - I'll take the comment about age as a compliment. :)
One simple question for you. Are the fruits of the spirit being exhibit in anything you say or do - here or elsewhere?
See Galatians 5:22-23 if you don't know what I am referring to. If you can answer yes with a clear conscience, then by all means, have at it.
And no need for a personal attack when I am simply responding to what the Holy Spirit is telling me. And if I can't gently correct my brothers and sisters in Christ, then we have truly lost our foundation and purpose in this lifetime.
"Preach the word! Be ready in season and out of season. Convince, rebuke, exhort, with all longsuffering and teaching.
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers;
and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables."
In season and out of season....does that mean even when they wish not to hear?
In context; we are talking about posting here on CP? We are not going to them and "forcing" our views, rather they are coming to us.
" It's actually not the Gospel they are rejecting, but those "Christians" who insist on imposing God's standards on a secular society."
You must be a young person to say this; this was once a Christian Nation where the influence of godly morals was once understood and honored by a majority of the people. You could walk down the street alone at night in Detroit and no one would try to kill you. It was the secularist who forced their agenda on us through the court system and by running for elected office. The Church was silent then and from what I understand you saying: The church should remain silent as society no longer wishes to hear.
Phileo, if that is what you want to do, then fine but to get on these forums and say others shouldn't speak out could be construed as you forcing your opinion on others. Reading a bit between the lines, I take it you don't care much for Christians overall or our influence on society and I have to ask you why. This is not the first time you have said this in a post and I wonder why you don't just hang up your web name and cancel your account if you feel so strongly about it.
And here again: "spend a lot less time fighting over secular court decisions"; WHO is it that you see here, that are Christians 'fighting' in the courts? I don't see anyone here fighting in the courts, just giving out opinion on the courts desisions and general social intercourse. Why do you feel you must stop others from doing that?
DITL and Daniel Paul - Jesus also said "If they don't listen to you, shake the dust off of your feet and move on to the next town." - referring to his first evangelical training exercise for the Apostles. Remember that Jesus was even rejected in his home town, and he simply moved on to where there were people of faith, willing to listen to his message. Jesus turned away from those that rejected the message and had no faith.
I think it's a safe argument to say that everyone in America has heard the Gospel preached. Most have chosen to reject it due to the hardness of their own hearts, etc. So be it, that is their own free will to reject the Gospel. But what we are not called on is to force them to adhere to God's standards if they are rejecting it. This is why we have all the backlash in the courts, and all the hatred in society about Jesus. It's actually not the Gospel they are rejecting, but those "Christians" who insist on imposing God's standards on a secular society. Just as you can't force someone to believe in God, or adhere to God's standards, you certainly shouldn't impose laws that reflect that which goes against what secularism dictates as the standard of the majority.
A long debate to hash out I am sure, but to be honest, taking prayer, bible study, etc out of the schools was the choice of the secular society. And I'd rather have 1,000 true at heart believers in the United States then 300 million folks that were taught the bible in school and rejected it as an adult due to some nun forcing it down their throats through threats, intimidation, and paddles.
Perhaps if you look at the history of the 1950's and 1960's where a lot of people went through Catholic schools, you'll find that as adults they are now fighting anyone claiming Christianity tooth and nail due to the negative effects of having someone force them to sit there and listen to something they now find easily offensive due to past history.
Again, you have to separate those outside the church from inside the church. And when Jesus tossed the money changers out, he was INSIDE the temple. You didn't see him going to the Roman authorities and begging they change the laws to reflect his views. Once you separate the physical from the spiritual you'll spend a lot less time fighting over secular court decisions, and more time focusing on a one on one relationship with your neighbor, built on true love and compassion.
One soul at a time my Christian friends.
Many people on both sides of this issue claim they are Christians. But how many truly are? Americans by and large will find time for anything if its important enough to them. This helps explain the hour after ahour football game line up on the weekends. But how much time have we devoted to prayer or study of the Bible? An hour a week? Maybe a little more or less? How well do we know Biblical verses or principles to back up what we actually believe? How many of us spend 3 or 4 times as much posting on here as we do in study of God's word?
We invest our time on what's truly important to us, so what was important to you last week and what is going to be important to you this week?
Phelio--God sent Nathan to correct His chosen King David. Paul corrected Peter. God often uses others to correct. Being permissive isn't loving. Standing up for what is right and best for others is loving.
"Love does not seek it's own."
Wouldn't it be better for me to just let them go unwarned? Face it...some of these people are just plain rude and antisocial. Having some background in psycology there is plenty of evidence to suggest anti-social disorders on the parts of many of the non-Christians.
We simply discuss things from the Christian point of view (thus the site is called Christian Post). These others feel the need to attack what we believe and then say we are the ones who are intolerant. This is classic anti-social disorder. They need help. So we pray for them. Post with them. Answer their questions as best we can and take the brunt of their rudeness. This is love.
Phileo,
Would you have said these words to Jesus as He overturned the money-changers table at the temple?
Although, I am in agreement with most of what you say here, there is another side to love that you advocate here that is disregarded and that is having the love enough to speak up and warn. There are forces at work to quiet the Church from speaking out against the sin in our culture and when you say one cannot argue to persuade, you are pretty much telling the Church to be quiet and only preach the gospel. Well, America has heard the Gospel and the culture does not reflect it.
You've pointed out; "Let God speak to their hearts about whatever sin issues....." and this is a true statement IF the person you are speaking about truly seeks after God and has not hardened his heart and no longer hears God. Paul speaks many times of correcting a brother which seems to indicate that sometimes our brother doesn't hear the Holy Spirit. If someone is to take your advice to heart and sit on their hands while a brother sins to death, hoping God will be heard in his heart, what service is that to one another, what love is that? It's easy to keep quiet and harder to correct someone or to speak against a raging culture.
Years ago, at the start of all our religious liberties becoming eroded; prayer in school, teaching creation, abortion; there was an outcry from many who asked, "Where was the Church?"
The Church was silent and started the ball rolling downhill to where we are presently.
There must be a balance between what you say and what must be done to hold on to the vestiages of religious freedom we still have; for our children and the ones coming after us. THIS is love.
"A majority group is attacking a minority group and taking their civil rights away from them. "
Every time the God-haters lose an election they whine something like that . . . what a joke.
John 8:7
1 Corinthians 13:13
I would respectfully ask everyone - no matter what your position on this issue, to take a long hard look in the mirror, and consider the tone of your words here.
You will never argue someone to your point of view. Both sides are hard as stone firmly on their side of the fence, and there is no changing anyone else UNLESS you learn to LOVE.
We are COMMANDED to preach the Gospel so that the whole world hears. That is a Gospel of love. I am a vessel of the Holy Spirit, to be used as God sees fit. My vessel is worthless if I am arguing over bible verses.
Present the truth of God's love. Let them decide for themselves if it is something the want. Let God speak to their hearts about whatever sin issues are going on in their lives. And while God is helping them examine their own speck of sin, try removing that plank from your eye in the process.
I'm not speaking to anyone in particular, and I frankly don't care where you come down on ANY issue. Just a loving reminder that Jesus loves every one of you, in spite of your sin, and in spite of my own.
Please try and keep your conduct worthy of Jesus reading whatever you say. I can only pray that I have done so as well. Unfortunately I fail miserably at every attempt. To that I pray for humility before the throne of God.
"I am so glad to read voices of reason. God is in love with all of us and, yes, people can be Christians and not be heterosexual."
I must have missed the post with that in it. Which one? I went through all the greek and hebrew terms today and found nothing of the sort.
chicago, if you are truly a Christian is not your love for Christ stronger than in your case for another man, because I can honestly say my love for Christ is stronger than my love for my wife or any other woman, so since Christ is a male does that make me a homosexual, I think not. The Hebrew language like the English language only has one word for love, if David had spoke in Greek he would have described his love for Jonathan as phileo love if not even agape love. And considering David was also married to his sister this made them even closer and as for men kissing men this was and is a common practice in many areas of the world and has absolutely no sexual connotation whatsover.
I am so glad to read voices of reason. God is in love with all of us and, yes, people can be Christians and not be heterosexual. The Greek language is sometimes ambivalent. In addition to expanding our understanding of the original languages - Hebrew, Greek, and Aramaic - we need to approach honestly the overwhelming evidence of the cultures of pre-Christian societies and the first century of the Christian era. The Bible was written by these writers who were affected by the culture around them as we are. Yes, I do believe that the Spirit strongly influenced the writers, but the writings themselves were not dictated, they were inspired - God-breathed if you will - and written by human beings who interpreted God's message for us.
Regarding the current issue, violence is not condoned by Jesus. He spoke against it even at the time of his arrest. Check out what Peter did if you don't remember. By teaching love and acceptance for all, Jesus expects us, I believe, to be accepting of all others. We have no right to judge nor should we be judged by others for our beliefs and life-styles. God is the final authority.
Faith, hope, and love lives here and the greatest of these is love. When we all love each other in spite of or even because of our differences the Body of Christ will be honored in the world. Let's pray for that.
Blessings.
Nothing. It's all about the Coca-cola!
"Is that your Pop Culture reference?"
What does Pepsi have to do with it?
Daniel Paul wrote: "The goal is to warn as many as possible. Have you ever seen a movie where someone warns the rest that something really bad is going to happen, they don't believe them and something really bad happened? I'm one of the guys saying "something really bad is going to happen if you go that way"."
Is that your Pop Culture reference? LOL!
i'm tolerably intolerant.
or is it intolerably tolerant?
something like that
Hey Cindy!!!
"I happen to disagree with you, lewr2, but you are entitled to your opinion as am I. "
This is actually a Biblical position. In fact, every person will be judged based on what they believe and what they did as a result. There in is the issue. It doesn't matter what we believe because none of us are the judge. God is the judge. It is what HE believes that matters. Christians believe the Bible is God's written explaination of what HE believes and the criterion of how we will be judged.
The goal is to warn as many as possible. Have you ever seen a movie where someone warns the rest that something really bad is going to happen, they don't believe them and something really bad happened? I'm one of the guys saying "something really bad is going to happen if you go that way".
Sometimes I get really puzzled by the gay people on this site who want the Bible to condone homosexuality. The greek is really clear on the subject that it's a no-no.
It is a problem I find in the 'straight' community too. People want God to accept them on their terms instead of conforming to God's terms. It is an amazing level of arrogance on the part of man to think that God should have to change for us.
"Amen! Quit judging me just because I call sin sin. That's not right."
How intolerant! I thought we were all suppose to accept and respect each other. I guess that's just how everyone should treat the special class called the pro-homosexual agenda Bibliophobes.
I find it interesting that the rhetoric of tolerance never seems to apply to how the gays treat others. That is evidence of a anti-social disorder.
I kiss my mom. O my Lord! I must love incest! I'm a sinner! Someone help me! Pray for me!
LOL. I have to laugh at people who don't understand the Bible.
Kissing was a cultural thing. Only a perv would think it has to be sexual. Judas kissed Jesus. Understand the context.
Covenants were a cultural thing. It's like a contract. A promise.
A had a friend who was closer than a brother to me. He was more important to me than my girlfriend. He would even bail on his girlfriend to hang with me. We were as straight as an arrow.
Lew: Take a look at the account of David and Jonathan in 1st and 2nd Samuel.
When two men have a relationship and one says that his love for the other surpasses that of women
AND they make a covenant with each other
AND they kiss each other
I would say that constitutes a loving, same-sex love affair. Yet this relationship is honored in the scriptures.
You don't think it constitutes a homosexual love affair? Then how would you feel if one of your male relatives did the same?
buddy,
Amen! Quit judging me just because I call sin sin. That's not right.
Please show me in the CONSTITUTION where it is permissable to discriminate against a minority and deprive them of their rights. As for SCRIPTURE, "Love thy neighbor as thyself" and "Judge not, lest ye be judged."
I happen to disagree with you, lewr2, but you are entitled to your opinion as am I.
Tip.. you have every right to protest. Peaceably. By the way... any Christian will tell you.... we EXPECT the protesting actually. The book tells us it will happen.
Cindy....
A practicing homosexual is no different than a practicing liar, thief or philander. There is no middle in this. We either DO what the bible says, or we do not.
chicago24....
Please show SCRIPTURE puporting to support anything other than heterosexual relationships. Not conjecture... PROOF.
The vast majority of prop 8 protesters were not violent. I have seen gay representatives speak out on tv against the few incidences of violence that did occur. I do think the NoMob ad was disingenuous in attempting to make the case that all protesters are part of a violent mob when it was a small, small minority.
I find it equally disingenuous to see Mike Huckabee on tv shows hawking his book and attempting to say that gay people aren't fighting for civil rights because none of them are getting "their skulls cracked" when we can read about anti-gay violence almost daily in the papers. Why do we Christians never condemn that violence, but instead attempt to act like it doesn't occur?
It would be helpful for both sides if we did not allow the fringes to determine the debate. Not all gay people protesting are violent, "Bibliophobes". There are many gay Christians. Not all against gay marriage are hateful bigots.
I hope as passions die down some, a meeting in the middle can occur.
artm: When will you realize that there is nothing in the Bible about homosexuality?
Sexual orientation as a condition wasn't even acknowleged until the late 19th century.
The Bible does address certain homosexual acts, but those acts are very far removed from a loving, supportive relationship between two people of the same sex.
To say that God condemns homosexuality is like saying God condemns heterosexuality because of Biblical rules against adultery.
"Those demonstrations across the country were remarkably peaceful "
That statement alone does nothing but show sociopathic tendancies. Assaulting a 75ish old lady just doesn't qualify as free speach to me. It is nothing but anti-social behavior.
This statement is nothing but "Lies in the name of Civil Rights". They are obviously Bibliophobic people who accept hate-speach and violence as a way of life. After all, if this was not the case they would be condeming the violence done by gays and caught on tape.
I wish just one time, someone would be honest enough to say, It's not Christians that are the problem, it's God.
Be honest enough to say I don't like what God has said concerning homosexuality.
Be honest enough to say, I want God to stay out of my life and let me do what I want to.
Be honest enough to say, I reject the teachings of the Bible concerning homosexuality.
Then at least maybe I could respect them a little.
Go ahead, Just be honest about it.
First off, Marjorie wasn't forced to resign. She elected to do so.
Second, can we finally address some real issues? Instead of attacking groups (gender, race, class, etc.) can we attack real opponents and threats to society like ignorance, greed, anger and injustice? I get it, Christian faiths ( I grew up Catholic) need a devil, a binary of good and bad, black and white to function. I know its gonna take a lot of work but we can't see a gay person and say, "bad." (or subsitute gay person for whatever Other you want) We have to the maturity to understand that humanity is complex and diverse.
Finally, let's not forget the fundamental threat here. A majority group is attacking a minority group and taking their civil rights away from them. We are writing discrimination into CAs state constitution. This is wrong and must not be allowed! That is the true threat to society!
Really? Ripping a crucifix from an elderly woman is not violent?. Burning the Book of Mormon on ward buildings' steps is not intimidation?
From what was shown on TV, the gay mobs were not violent, but they need to accept that in America the majority rules and stop the public protests.
itsallaboutjesusnotme.blogspot.com
Mike, No one has to say who is or is not Christian, because God has already done that, And it has been determined that it is Impossible to reject the teachings of the Bible concerning homosexuality, and be Christian at the same time.
Well as a mob member, I have the right to express my opinion and to protest injustice no matter what the Becket Fund whines about, luckily.
It's always funny the way churches feel that they should be immune from protest and criticism, and yet are the first to criticize others.
There's plenty of propaganda by those who call themselves God lovers, but are actually out for their own political gain. Many, many, in the gay community are Christians, and it is not your call to make whether or not they are.
That last YouTube video kind of reminds you of Sodom and Gomorrah in the days of Lot doesn't it? There was a gay mob that showed up outside his door too.
Yeah, the homosexual groups are right. The ads supporting the LDS was allll for "political gain". There was no "violence" (Yeah, right):
http://www.clarksvilleonline.com/2008/11/18/anarchist-group-disrupts-michigan-church/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QD1AITHS2Wc&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Nlbt12Ohxc&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kJDkVBkSMQk&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nTuqXiHzZtk&feature=related
(Notice the chants of Die! Die!)
More propaganda by the God-haters folks.
(buuuuuuuuttt there was no violence...)