The Vatican spokesman stated on Thursday that the Roman Catholic Church does not oppose efforts to decriminalize homosexuality despite its opposition against a U.N. declaration on gay rights.
Regarding a "penal code that criminalizes homosexuals or even foresees the death penalty for them, there is nothing to discuss: The Holy See is totally opposed," Vatican's chief spokesman Father Federico Lombardi told reporters Thursday, according to Zenit News Agency.
"It is a position that respects the rights of the human person, in his dignity," Lombardi said during the presentation of the papal message for the World Day of Peace. He also stated the Church's opposition to "any unjust discrimination on the basis of homosexuality."
His comments were in response to a firestorm of protests by gay rights advocates surrounding the Holy See's opposition to a United Nations proposal condemning "discrimination based on sexual orientation and gender identity."
The non-binding resolution, backed by the 27-member European Union, calls on governments worldwide to decriminalize homosexuality. France, which put forth the initiative on Human Rights Day, is expected to submit a draft of the proposal at the U.N. General Assembly next week.
Controversy erupted over the issue after Archbishop Celestino Migliore, the Vatican's envoy to the United Nations, told a French Catholic newspaper that the Vatican opposed the proposal, saying it would "add new categories of those protected from discrimination" and could "create new and implacable discriminations."
States which do not allow homosexuals to marry will be "pilloried" to recognize same-sex marriage and "made an object of pressure," Migliore said.
Under the proposed declaration, nations that "do not put every sexual orientation on exactly the same level can be considered contrary to the respect of human rights," Lombardi had earlier explained.
The Vatican position prompted several demonstrations by gay rights activists, including a protest inside the Vatican last weekend. The protesters hung nooses around their necks as they accused the Church of being an "accomplice in the martyrdom" of homosexuals.
Faith leaders belonging to a U.S. coalition of gay rights groups issued a statement Wednesday denouncing the Vatican's opposition to the proposed initiative.
"By refusing to sign a basic statement opposing inhumane treatment of LGBT people, the Vatican is sending a message that violence and human rights abuses against LGBT people are acceptable," read the statement.
"Most Catholics, and indeed most Catholic teachings, tell us that all people are entitled to live with basic human dignity without the threat of violence."
The statement also called on the United States to back the proposed initiative, claiming that "in more than 70 countries people can be imprisoned for homosexuality and in several countries same gender love is a crime punishable by death."
Lombardi made clear Thursday that while the Holy See opposes "legislation that penalizes homosexuality," the Church still disagrees with any initiatives that are aimed at "putting all forms of sexual orientation on the same level."
"The Church sustains that marriage is between one man and one woman and it does not accept that unions of persons of the same sex are placed at the same level."
Citing Migliore's comments, Lombardi noted that the Church was against any initiative that would impose the recognition of "rights," such as homosexual marriage and the possibility of same-sex couples adopting children, something which is not even permitted in France, Zenit reported. Continue >>
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No offense to the Catholics, because there are many good Catholic believers, however the Catholic institutional church has had a history of bllod and misdeeds which were committed under the huise of the Catholic doctrine and most of it was contrary to scripture.
On a personal note, I find sacramental Christianity the most expressive version of the faith. Bells, smells, etc..help as outward expressions of deep inner spiritual truths, they also help to concentrate the mind on these things, bringing a sense of the numinous. That is most likely why I find myself at home in the local high Anglican church.
The Catholic Church "carries His sacriments", and I carry His Spirit. If a person thinks that sacriments trumps His Spirit, then it's obvious what they worship.
(we are the only true Christian Church)
Making this claim does not make it so . . . there are many people of faith that claim the same thing . . .
tliml,
"We are the only church that celebrates Jesus' sacrament thus we are the only true Christian Church. No matter what you say. WE are the only church that TRULY follows Christ, because we carry his sacrament."
I know you wixh I would agree with you, but your statement is false.
Pride.
tliml, please check your Sat. 11:43AM post to star2 and you'll see where you said that the catholic church is the one true church.
thelordismylight
>>>Before you were saying "Anyone who does not know the word of God, cannot go to heaven and will go to hell, that's just how it is."<<<
That is not what I said though I can see how you might have interpreted what I said to mean that. Review the conversation and you will see that I said that if a person doesn't call upon the name of the Lord (receive Jesus into their heart) then they will not go to heaven. A person can't possibly call upon the name of the Lord unless they hear about Jesus and what He did for them.
>>>Even Online and Prophet were a little put off by your attitude. <<<
The conversation was between me, you, Online, and GMG. Prophet was not a part of it. You and Online were discussing whether the body and the wine in the Lord's Supper (communion) were actual or symbolic. GMG entered into the discussion you and I were having about whether those who have never heard the gospel would perish. She sided with me using a different approach.
I may be wrong but I think Online and GMG think a little differently than me in regard to how God judges in eternity those who have never heard the gospel and thus never had a chance to respond while alive on the earth. (continued - 1)
(continued - 1)
Here is the conversation:
"Younger Catholics Becoming Increasingly Liberal, Studies Show"
http://www.christianpost.com/article/20080217/younger-catholics-becoming-increasingly-liberal-studies-show.htm
thelordismylight Sat Feb 23, 2008 11:01 pm : 0 : 0 Flag
Ok star2, I will ask about that as well. I have to go as well though. Nice chatting. Bye.
star2 Sat Feb 23, 2008 11:01 pm : 0 : 0 Flag Delete
good night online and GMG
GMG Sat Feb 23, 2008 11:00 pm : 0 : 0 Flag
I need to say good night also. God bless, everyone.
star2 Sat Feb 23, 2008 10:59 pm : 0 : 0 Flag Delete
tliml
Mark 16:15-16
15 "Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
If some one has never heard the gospel how can they believe that the Lord Jesus Christ died for their sins and rose from the dead? You have to hear the gospel and believe before you can be saved.
Online4Him Sat Feb 23, 2008 10:58 pm : 0 : 0 Flag
Good night all
thelordismylight Sat Feb 23, 2008 10:58 pm : 0 : 0 Flag
star2-
I am going to ask a friend of mine about that, he is a Bishop so I am sure he will know the answer. I grew up with him in highschool.
star2 Sat Feb 23, 2008 10:50 pm : 0 : 0 Flag Delete
thelordismylight
Re:Jesus can still save them through his grace. Who says they have to know about Him? It just says through him. It doesn't say "If you never heard of him you are out of luck"
God says so throught the Apostle Paul:
Romans 10:
9That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
12For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
(continued - 2)
(continued - 2)
thelordismylight Sat Feb 23, 2008 10:50 pm : 0 : 0 Flag
Star2-
It can be interpreted like this (Thank God for my Catholic help books) Nobody is made righteous. You have to develop virtue and righteousness on your own.
thelordismylight Sat Feb 23, 2008 10:45 pm : 0 : 0 Flag
Online4Him-
He is not giving his life. He did that only once, he is giving a part of him. And you can't get around the fact that Jesus said "This is my body" and "This is my blood" You just can't.
Star2-
give me a second. I need to refer to my texts :D
GMG Sat Feb 23, 2008 10:42 pm : 0 : 0 Flag
So, my altruistic tendencies will get me to heaven anyway?
thelordismylight Sat Feb 23, 2008 10:42 pm : 0 : 0 Flag
Jesus can still save them through his grace. Who says they have to know about Him? It just says through him. It doesn't say "If you never heard of him you are out of luck"
star2 Sat Feb 23, 2008 10:41 pm : 0 : 0 Flag Delete
No one has virtue.
"As it is written, There is none righteous, no,not one." (Romans 3:10)
star2 Sat Feb 23, 2008 10:40 pm : 0 : 0 Flag Delete
Romans 3:23
"For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God."
Romans 6:23
"For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of god is eternal life throught Jesus Christ our Lord.
(continued - 3)
(continued - 3)
thelordismylight Sat Feb 23, 2008 10:40 pm : 0 : 0 Flag
GMG-
If you couldn't possibly have ANY way of knowing about or having access to the Truth then you can still be saved through heroic virtue.
GMG Sat Feb 23, 2008 10:39 pm : 0 : 0 Flag
>>>And if you do not know of Him you can still be with him through virtue<<<
What does that mean?
star2 Sat Feb 23, 2008 10:37 pm : 0 : 0 Flag Delete
As it is written, There is none righteous, no,not one. (Romans 3:10)
thelordismylight Sat Feb 23, 2008 10:17 pm : 0 : 0 Flag
Sorry, came out wrong. What I meant was:
Somebody goes to hell because they did not have the knowledge? That is not scriptural.
GMG Sat Feb 23, 2008 10:17 pm : 0 : 0 Flag
tliml -
Read it again.
Matt 12:30 HE WHO IS NOT WITH ME IS AGAINST ME, and he who does not gather with Me scatters abroad.
Mark 9:40 For HE WHO IS NOT AGAINST US IS ON OUR SIDE.
thelordismylight Sat Feb 23, 2008 10:16 pm : 0 : 0 Flag
You are right, it isn't scriptural. Not everything is in the scripture. It couldn't possibly be. I am not sure if it is the same for Protestants, but we Catholics have a thing called Mercy Foundations of Character. We believe that if someone doesn't have access to knowledge it would be unfair for them to go to hell because they did not do anything. That is not scriptural. Unless of course everyone's destiny is predetermined? That is not scriptural either. We have free will so nothing is predetermined.
star2 Sat Feb 23, 2008 10:16 pm : 0 : 0 Flag Delete
thelordismylight
I am talking about this posting you made:That is also somewhat false. What about the people that do not have access to the good news? What about them? The Catholic Church states that "those who, by no fault of their own, do not have shared faith in Jesus, can still be saved through heroic virtue" and yet we are called heartless when you people are ready to condemn anyone that doesn't even know about Jesus? Or throw anyone in hell that doesn't think the way you do? (homosexuals) Who is without mercy here?
(continued - 4)
(continued - 4)
star2 Sat Feb 23, 2008 10:13 pm : 0 : 0 Flag Delete
The position of the Catholic church on those who have never heard of Jesus is not scriptural.
thelordismylight Sat Feb 23, 2008 10:10 pm : 0 : 0 Flag
Star2,
That is also somewhat false. What about the people that do not have access to the good news? What about them? The Catholic Church states that "those who, by no fault of their own, do not have shared faith in Jesus, can still be saved through heroic virtue" and yet we are called heartless when you people are ready to condemn anyone that doesn't even know about Jesus? Or throw anyone in hell that doesn't think the way you do? (homosexuals) Who is without mercy here?
GMG Sat Feb 23, 2008 10:09 pm : 0 : 0 Flag
>>>2. The Catholic Church does not interpret one part of the bible literally and another part of it "in context" as the Orthodox Christians do. Notice that "in context" was quoted.<<<
Okay, then explain these two verses, both of which are Jesus' words.
Matt 12:30 He who is not with Me is against Me, and he who does not gather with Me scatters abroad.
Mark 9:40 For he who is not against us is on our side.
star2 Sat Feb 23, 2008 10:09 pm : 0 : 0 Flag Delete
change Only Jesus can day (Eph 2:8-10). to Only Jesus can save (Eph 2:8-10).
star2 Sat Feb 23, 2008 10:07 pm : 0 : 0 Flag Delete No, that is not what I say. God wants us to do good works but our good works will never save us. Only Jesus can day (Eph 2:8-10). Jesus is the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him. (Heb 5:9). You have to be like the thief on the cross that got saved if you want to go to Heaven. No other way will work.
thelordismylight Sat Feb 23, 2008 10:03 pm : 0 : 0 Flag
So you get to heaven by saying "I am bad, forgive me" then while you are saying this an old dying lady asks you if you can call 911 for you and you say "I don't have to, I am already saved" hmm seems too good to be true. I know what you are going to say, something like "It is just right to help them" or "Did we ever say we don't help people?" but this is the question: Do you believe that you can accept Jesus, not help people, not do anything good, not go out of your way to be a Christian, and still get to heaven?
(continued - 5)
(continued - 5)
star2 Sat Feb 23, 2008 10:00 pm : 0 : 0 Flag Delete
Well, I'll let online and wilderness address those issues you brought up.
I like talking with you. I'm female you know and females like fellowship of sorts.
Just remember, salvation doesn't come from accepting the dogma of some church. It comes from being convicted that you are a sinner and worthy of damnation, that Jesus died for your sins and rose from the dead. If you want to accept what Jesus did for you, then turn to God in prayer and ask God to forgive you of your sins, come live in your heart, and be the Lord of your life. If you do, then He will give you a new nature after His own. He will change your life. He will set you free from sin, etc.
Good night . . . you too.
OK Online, 11pm CT.
Good night Online. God bless and have a great day.
11pm CT
Sounds good . . . it was good chatting with you again . . . I am ready for the hay . . . God bless . . .
What time? 11pm or midnight CT?
OK, Online, I'll email GMG and Prophet to let them know.
Sat night (12/27)sounds good; I already emailed wilderness1 and told him about our upcoming chat . . .
Do you want to meet on Sat night (12/27) or sunday (12/28) night? What time? 11pm or midnight CT?
I'll let Prophet know in case he wants to join in our chat.
ok . . . I will email him.
Yes, of course, I will contact GMG when we decide on a day and time. Do you want to contact wilderness?
Sounds good to me . . .
Maybe we should wait to give GMG time to open up the email. Doesn't always check it every day. How about after Christmas, maybe next Sat or Sun night?
okay . . . will you email GMG?
How about tomorrow night (Sunday night) around 11pm or midnight CT? That would make it 9 or 10 pm your time.
I am open . . .
When would you like to do it?
Star2,
My grandmother made a full recovery and is doing great, thank the Lord . . . my daughter is attending a community college for now . . . she will transfer out after finishing her generals . . . the girls b-ball team is the same but the guys are doing very well; 4-0 right now . . . I pray GMG will be well . . . going back to our site sounds good to me.
Online
How is your grandmother doing since she had her surgery some time ago?
What college did your daughter decide to go to?
How are the boys and girls basketball teams doing this year? I hope the girls are doing better this year than last.
GMG hasn't been feeling too good for quite awhile. The doctors can't seem to find out what is wrong.
We all ought to get together on our old meeting site and have a chat. If interested let me know. I'll contact GMG and wilderness. Maybe Prophet will want to come too.
star2,
Yes, it seems that they all came back at the same time . . . interesting.
Yea Online, the ole gang is back together again, at least partially since GMG is not here nor is wilderness.
tliml
I was being insensitive to you and made statements that put you in a negative light to any one who read the post. I assumed that since you were spending so much time at CP at night that you didn't spend anytime with your family. I had no right to assume that. I apologize.
(Face it, my Protestant friends, either you are in the Church Christ founded or you are not. You might still be a Christian, but because you are outside the protection of the Holy Spirit)
Wow, it seems that my pals all decided to come out in full force this day . . . welcome back.
The RCC actually seems to fit the description of the little horn in Daniel 7 rather than the church that Christ founded . . .
Star2-
I was a little upset that (once again) you passed judgement, but I was really upset with the two people that gave your comment a thumbs up. And in my defense I think I come and go in ugliness depending upon what people say.
tliml
Posts taken from
"Younger Catholics Becoming Increasingly Liberal, Study Shows."
You were more friendly and nice when we were dialoging on that article. Then you became ulgy when I posted my comments about you spending too much time on CP and not enough time with your wife and son. You have been ugly to me ever since.
The conversation:
thelordismylight Sat Feb 23, 2008 9:56 pm : 0 : 0 Flag
Well, executive attorney, whatever. My check says Executive Officer Attorney
thelordismylight Sat Feb 23, 2008 9:56 pm : 0 : 0 Flag
I am head attorney at IBM yea.
thelordismylight Sat Feb 23, 2008 9:55 pm : 0 : 0 Flag
Star2,
Listen... I have not had a good argument in months. My hands are shaking. I did not come on here for pleasantry lol. Plz adress what I said.
star2 Sat Feb 23, 2008 9:55 pm : 0 : 0 Flag Delete
Umm..no, not really. Are you the main lawyer at IBM?
thelordismylight Sat Feb 23, 2008 9:54 pm : 0 : 0 Flag
No, IBM has merged with intitech, it is a small company that was working on programming and gaming, it started growing so IBM bought them out.
star2 Sat Feb 23, 2008 9:53 pm : 0 : 0 Flag Delete
Oh, IBM is wanting to hire some interns of some sorts?
thelordismylight Sat Feb 23, 2008 9:52 pm : 0 : 0 Flag
Star2,
No. No they did not. Nobody wanted to sue IBM, IBM wanted to merge with a company. Lots of work for me.
thelordismylight Sat Feb 23, 2008 9:52 pm : 0 : 0 Flag
And umm... really. These are just boys and girls they are interviewing. In ten years they will think differently. I had some liberal notions when I was their age. It is only natural.
star2 Sat Feb 23, 2008 9:51 pm : 0 : 0 Flag Delete
What was going on at work? Did someone want to sue IBM?
star2 Sat Feb 23, 2008 9:48 pm : 0 : 0 Flag Delete
Hi thelordismylight. How are you ding. Long time no see.
tliml - But you mentioned it several times on different threads. If it didn't bother you then why did you keep bringing it up and throwing it in Online's and GMG's face? You didn't start getting real ugly to me until I said what I said. You use to be quite 'nice' at times but you are not any more. So, yes it did bother you. You only assumed that Online and GMG gave the thumbs up. I am not so sure that either one of them give the thumbs up since I don't think they do that very often. A lot of people cruise these articles and make their opinions known by giving thumbs up/down instead of posting.
Prophet-
We are the only church that celebrates Jesus' sacrament thus we are the only true Christian Church. No matter what you say. WE are the only church that TRULY follows Christ, because we carry his sacrament.
Star-
I was upset at the people that gave you a thumbs up. But it was a little obnoxious of you to pass judgement yet again.
I like how he said "if your faith were actually the true faith, you would be content with just that." But doesn't practice that himself....
I wonder if anyone can show me where the Bible says that if you observe the eucharist, that you are automatically "enlightened". And why is it that other Christians observe it (under a different name) and yet are not "enlightened".
Pride.
thelordismylight
>>>Star-
I was not offended by your petty questions of my family life.<<<
Not so. Here is the conversation we had when I made the comments about you spending too much time at CP and not spending time with your family. Not offended?
Younger Catholics Becoming Increasingly Liberal, Study Shows.
star2 Sun Feb 24, 2008 11:54 pm : 0 : 0 Flag Delete thelordismylight
I flagged my comments about your personal life so that no one else could read it.
thelordismylight Sun Feb 24, 2008 8:14 pm : 0 : 0 Flag What? Nobody?
.
thelordismylight Sun Feb 24, 2008 5:28 pm : 0 : 1 Flag Alright, my already low opinion of you people has gone even lower. When somebody makes a poorly assumed comment about your personal life you do not say "Oh yea, I agree with it." Just common tact. Oh my God I just can't get over that. It is just so obnoxious.
thelordismylight Sun Feb 24, 2008 5:15 pm : 0 : 1 Flag Wait a minute... oh my god that is just obnoxious. Who gave Star2's comments about MY PERSONAL LIFE a thumbs up? Do you want me to rate your lives? You are a bunch of Protestants obsessed with tearing down the faith that has ten times the populous as you do and is the biggest threat to you. It is very pathetic that you seek out any forum about Catholicism so you can just go and start attacking it. You go OUT OF YOUR WAY to point out flaws in other faiths when, if your faith were actually the true faith, you would be content with just that. We don't go to forums about Protestants and point out their flaws. There, that is my rating on your lives. I am sorry, but it is just absolute obnoxiousness to give a thumbs up to a post that, besides being completely irrelevant, makes assumptions about someone's personal life.
thelordismylight Sun Feb 24, 2008 5:07 pm : 0 : 1 Flag Star2-
Do not concern yourself with my private life. I do spend quality time with my family. I talked to Bishop Burbidge and I have answers to your questions:
Ah, the eucharist. Wow. We celebrate that too. See? We aren't any different. Oh, wait...we call it another name, so we must not be the same. Oy, will some people ever mature in Christ? Or will they remain infants their whole life? God give me patience.
No Prophet. The one thing that gives us the authority to interpret the scripture is the Eucharist.
Sounds like tliml is the most venomous, hateful, and violent of anyone here. But that's what happens when you defend an institution instead of the Word of God.
You're right, I don't know what it is. But I know what it's not. And it's not God nor scripture. So whatever it may be, don't matter to me.
As prideful as Catholics are, the RCC is just one of the many different denominations in Christianity. They don't hold any special position, or secret, or power. God doesn't reveal Himself differently to them compared to other Christians. Because it is the same Holy Spirit. Catholics are no different than Baptists. How do I know? From the Catholics I've known over the years. They act just like every other Christian. I figure if they had the inside scoop on things that they'd act different. And not just parishoners, but also clergy. They are no different than pastors and preachers. And the pope is no different than Billy Graham or Kenneth Copeland.
But there is one major difference between Catholics and everyone else.....
Pride.
But I guess thousands of years of indoctrination and pride is hard to overcome....
Oh now I know why all the protties are here. They hate homosexuals and want the KKK to kill them all right? KKK Kill Kill Kill?
Prophet-
You don't know what it is do you?
TLIML,
"No, there is one thing that gives us authority over the scripture."
I know it's not the scriptures itself, and it's not God. But it could be man-made traditions that promote that fallacy.
believer-
Yes, anyone can APPLY them any way that they wish. But only the RCC has the authority to truly interpret them. I believe anyone with good virtue, educated of Christ or not, can be saved. Simply those that are educated are held to a higher standard because they know better. If you got to know Star you might find that she is far less accepting than I am.
Star-
I was not offended by your petty questions of my family life. I revel in my family and also in the fact that from the vibes I pick up you have none. Probably because you repel anyone who gets close to you. I am offended that you appointed yourself as judge of the scriptures.
Prophet-
No, there is one thing that gives us authority over the scripture.
Believer-
Quote me where I said the RCC is the only true church.
It appears that the Catholic Church is the authority in interpreting the scriptures because they say so. Though there is no scripture to support their view, their pride compels them to such distorted claims.
TLIML, You still haven't shown me the scriptures I've requested as to the "fact" that we will all be Catholic when Jesus returns.
tliml - You didn't start having a problem with me until I offended you on that article you claim that I said that if you don't know the Word of God you will go to hell. That is not what I said but that is the impression you got. Your offense was not about my opinion about what scripture teaches regarding the eternal fate of those who never heard of Christ and die in their sins but the comments I made about your personal life and the questions I asked about whether you spend any time with your son and your wife.
tliml, sure my post did, you're making a totally false claim that the catholic church is the one true church and I'm making just as totally a false claim that the baptist church is the one true church, the only problem is you used to believe your false claim but now you are coming to believe my false claim, since John the Baptist is the founder of the baptist church of my false claim which is what is making you angry.
No, what's making me angry is that your argument had no warrant, no point, no relevancy, and it was not sequitur.
Believer, not true. The Catholic Church was the only body given the power to use the Holy Spirit's guidance and the wisdom of man to interpret the scripture.
tliml, I guess what's making you angry is that due to your faulty thinking you've come to believe that we Baptists are the true church as opposed to the catholic church thanks to our founder, John the Baptist.
tliml, when a person is saved they are immediately indwelt by God's Holy Spirit and one of His major roles in the life of every believer is to illumine God's Word in the heart and mind of every individual believer. No one church or denomination was ever given that responsibility since that is the responsibility of the Holy Spirit to do that.
Believer-
What? First of all you never even give an example of the reasoning I use. Then not only did you make a non sequitur and dumb argument, but it didn't relate to ANY reasoning that I used. You are a fool. The more I write and the more I reveal your ignorance unto myself, the angrier I get.
Star2-
No, my problem is very much with you, the Catholic Church's interpretation says I'm fine. Yours says I'm going to Hell. I'm siding with the RCC since they have authority bestowed upon them and you do not.
Daniel-
There is a difference between repeating and interpreting. Only the Roman Catholic Church has been given the authority to interpret the scriptures officially. Nobody else was given the authority.
tliml, your problem is with the Word of God not me.
Sorry, msnchris, I respectfully disagree.
"Watch out everyone, Star2 has the power to condemn you to hell."
There is a difference between repeating the judgement and making it.
chris, God gave us the Bible the catholics just tried in vain to keep it away from the people. Plus, I'm sure many liberal and moderate protestants and evangelicals have caved to what you shared about Peter, but they have also caved to same-sex marriage, abortion, and the inerrancy of the Scriptures as well. Once again if you, tallguy, tliml, and now ihs are typical examples of the catholic church with your arrogance, haughtiness, and pride I thank God that He got me out of there.
tliml, based on the thinking you use to make your faulty claim, I've got an even better claim, the Baptists are the true founders of the true Church since after all John the BAPTIST is the one who introduced Jesus Christ to the world when He began His public ministry. But the truth is God has kept me from using your type of logic and faulty thinking by showing me His Truth in His Word, the Bible. And guess what there is only one True Church and that is the Church that every truly born-again believer becomes an eternal member of the very moment they repent of their sins by acknowledging their sin and receiving God's forgiveness from their sin as they turn to God through the person and finished work of His Son, Jesus Christ alone! And He has members of that Church in probably all denominations to include the catholic church.
It is not Peter's confession, it is Peter. Gramatically, you cannot support your position in any language. Most Protestant and Evangelical scholars admit to this now.
YOU ARE KEPHA AND ON THIS KEPHA I WILL BUILD MY CHURCH. Jesus is not saying his confession that he is the christ is the Rock, it is the person who is now called PETER who is the ROCK. Jesus confers His own name to Simon to give him special authority over God's people.
Also, the keys have nothing to do with Peter's confession either. Do any of you Protestants read the Old Testament ever????? The Keys are a hebrew tradition and is referenced in Isaiah 22. The Keys have always represented authority. The OT Authority is for King David, and the person that held the keys was the Prime Minister. The NT Keys is for the King of Kings who is Christ and He bestowed them solely on Peter as his Prime Minister. You will also note that we see this Prime Minstership as dynastic, meaning not ending with the person who holds the keys but whomever the keys are passed to through SUCCESSION. The NT points out Apostolic Succession as well.
Face it, my Protestant friends, either you are in the Church Christ founded or you are not. You might still be a Christian, but because you are outside the protection of the Holy Spirit that Guides this Holy Catholic Church, then no one can verify or validate your interpretation of scripture. Only the Catholic Church received this promise by Jesus that the Holy Spirit would lead this one church into ALL truth.
THE CHURCH IS THE FOUNDATION AND BULWARK OF TRUTH. 1Tim 3:15. The Church produced the Bible through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. So, the Bible which you Protestants base all your authority came from the Catholic Church. So, you reject the authority of the Church that gave the Bible to you, but you accept the Bible's authority? Not very logical.
Well, it seems that some of my old pals are back . . . anything new?
Where does it say that we will all be Catholic?
No, not pride. Bible. It's in there.
When Jesus comes, we will find that these names we posted above our Church entrances are no more. There will be no pentacost, baptist, presbyterian....and yes there will be no catholic.
But, yes, pride will destroy a person's life. It's a nasty thing to have in a person's life. It's probably more destructive than sexual sin. Because pride separates us from God.
"...Jesus comes he WILL tear down all Protestant denominations and you WILL join the RCC when you see the light and that there WILL be a time of peace, revelation, and knowledge."
Um...ok.
Pride.
I do not recognize the Catholic Church as the final authority on scriptures. Jesus said that He must go, and that He will send the comforter (the Holy Spirit,not the RCC) who will lead us into all truth. I do recognize the Catholic church as another denomination, brothers and sisters called by the same God, anointed, and fully invested in His kingdom.
But the funny thing about the RCC being the final authority on the Scripture...much of their teaching isn't even scriptural.
Now you can spout that "If" Peter came he "might" tear apart our church, but I can say definitively that WHEN Jesus comes he WILL tear down all Protestant denominations and you WILL join the RCC when you see the light and that there WILL be a time of peace, revelation, and knowledge.
That "Him" at the end of my last post was not intensive of Peter.
Prophet-
Unlike Star you are judging nobody, "when we are in heaven together." thus I will reward you by making my post not nasty. I never said you had to be in a Church to be saved, and if I did that's not what I meant. I believe I said it was ideal to be in the correct Church (which is the Catholic Church) and that the Catholic Church is the only church that truly has any authority towards the Scripture. And I'd like to know what you mean about us not being anything like the Church of Peter. Either you mean we have not kept apostolic succession (when we are the only church that has) or we have not kept Jesus' sacrament (when we are the only church that has) or that we have not kept tradition (when we are the only church that has) or we have not kept our scriptures the same (when we are the only church that has) or that we have not kept our archaic methods, which makes no sense since, according to the great televangelists, were what was terrible about us in the first place. So please explain about why Peter would rip our church apart when he found us listening to Him and staying on Christ's path.
Prophet-
Ok I'll play your game. What could you possibly mean by that?
And, by the way, I am not "imperfectly attached" to the Church. I'm a perfectly a part of that Church because I have made Jesus my Lord. I know that upsets you, but you'll get over it. Either now, or when we're in heaven together.
Catholicism is just another denomination in Christianity.
msnchris,
"If you will notice, to be a member of the true Church you must be in communion with Peter and his successor."
Can you please point out the scripture? I'm having trouble finding it. Again, the RCC is full of man-made traditions and doctrines. If by some chance what you are saying that Peter founded the Catholic church and that it is "the only True Church", I can guarantee you that the Church that Peter founded was nothing like the Church today. If he were alive, he'd be ripping the RCC and new one.
TLIML,
She must be catholic then.
Watch out everyone, Star2 has the power to condemn you to hell.
Star2-
I'm a lawyer. Even if i did violate any law (which I didn't) you couldn't press charges because you don't know any of my contact information. You couldn't get it from Christianpost because I gave them my address and email for the sole purpose of receiving their newsletters. And if they gave it to you so that you could press charges they would be completely violating their contract that they and I agreed to.
Star2-
To put this short, yea you said I'd go to Hell. And nothing I did violated the Internet Security Act. What I did was not illegal. I did not access your computer. I have no clue as to what your password is, and if anyone's to blame it's christianpost. And don't worry, I can't access anything besides what I did just then. That was the only opportunity at which I could do it and the opportunity will never arise again.
chris70, I think the seminaries that you got your theology degrees from ought to nullify those degrees. Your lack of knowledge and understanding of the Word of God, would be a shame to any institution of higher learning that teaches the Word of God, unless of course, that institution is as deceived as you.
Getting wet via baptism doesn't save you Chris70.
msnchris70
>>>Baptism makes you a disciple of Christ ...<<<
Oh really? That may be what the RCC says but Jesus says otherwise.
Luke 14:26,27,33
26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.
27 And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.
33 So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple.
Beware everybody, thelordismylight knows how to get your CP password and post comments using your CP ID.
BTW thelordismylight, doing whatever you did to get my password so you could post a comment using my name is illegal.
tliml
I am not judging you. The Word of God judges you. My opinion(s) are based on the Word of God. Your opinions are based on what man says. If I am wrong in how I understand it then God will show me and I will change. However, when you are wrong you just hurl insults at people you disagree with and you refuse to change when you are shown to be wrong.
Jesus said in John 17:17 that the Word of God is truth. I tkae Jesus at His word and I accept by faith that the Word of God is truth. If extra-blblical writings say something different than what scripture says then I reject it as heresy.
The writings of the early church fathers have many practices and teachings that are contradictary to the Word of God. I reject their writings.
You apparently accept them so those writings are what establishes what truth is for you. You are accountable to God for what you believe.
On judgment day God is going to judge you based on His Word not on the teachings and practices of the RCC.
You won't be able to plead ignorance because you have heard the truth of God's Word thru many believers here on CP plus you have a Bible, why don't you pick it up and read it. Many Catholics have become born-again by the Spirit of God when they read the Bible and many of them left the Catholic Church because they realized that what the RCC taught them is not what scruipture says.
You are not a Boomer for Christ, you are a Boomer for the Devil. At this point you are a child of the devil. Your judgmental attitude towards me as evident thru your ugly speech towards me is proof positive that your heart is in not right with God and you are in rebellion against God. You are still dead in your sins,lost, and without hope at this point. Hopefully, and prayerfully you'll be saved before it is too late.
forgiven, yes, it appears m&m are no longer among us!
"let's not forget his shadow, too. "
Only the shadow knows....
"And Jesus said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal {this} to you, but My Father who is in heaven. I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it."
If Jesus was talking about the person of Peter then why did Paul write most of the epistles? Perhaps Jesus was refering to the fact that it was not flesh and blood that showed Peter the truth that Jesus was the Christ but rather the Spirit. It is the Holy Spirit on whom the church is build and not a man.
believer, hummm...let's not forget his shadow, too.
forgiven, I guess our friend on the other post bailed on us?
chris, after reading your last posts I am so thankful God released me from the catholic church and led me to first and foremost become a Christian and then to become a Southern Baptist. And by the way anyone who is truly a born-again believer is a member of the One True Universal Church no matter what their denominational affiliation and they become a member of His Church at the very moment they become a child of God, a truly born-again believer.
msnchris wrote: "Allow me to clarify. Matt 16:18 points to Jesus founding His church on PETER who is the Rock. Christ who is the ultimate Rock gives his authority to Peter by this naming and also the gift of the keys. This gives Peter "Primacy" among his fellow Apostles and Bishops. It does not need to say Roman Catholic for the Catholic Church to be the only true church."
Ther is no where in scripture that confirms this premise. In the context of this passage Jesus is asking Peter who men were saying He was. Jesus then asks Peter who he says He (Jesus) was and Peter confirms His belief that Jesus was the Son of God! Jesus then says that this confession that He is the Son of God would be the rock, the foundation, His church would be built on. The keys to the kingdom refers to the access one recieves through confession and obedience which adds them to His church.
If you are not in full communion with the Bishop of Rome, Prime Minister of the Christian Church of God, then you are only imperfectly united to the True Church through the Sacrament of Baptism.
So, Prophet you are imperfectly united to the True Church which is the Catholic Church by virtue of your Baptism. Baptism makes you a disciple of Christ and therefore a member of the one true church, but imperfectly united because of the lack of unity with the Bishop of Rome who has God's authority, lack of the full seven sacraments, Apostolic succession and Biblical and Apostolic hierarchy.
We Catholics are proud that God founded our Church, not because of anything we did, but of what He did through us.
Allow me to clarify. Matt 16:18 points to Jesus founding His church on PETER who is the Rock. Christ who is the ultimate Rock gives his authority to Peter by this naming and also the gift of the keys. This gives Peter "Primacy" among his fellow Apostles and Bishops. It does not need to say Roman Catholic for the Catholic Church to be the only true church.
If you will notice, to be a member of the true Church you must be in communion with Peter and his successor. So, Roman, Melkite, Greek, Maronite, Byzantine, coptic, Ruthanian, Chaldean and about another 15 other Churches are in full communion with the Bishop of Rome, the Pope. We are the Catholic Church and the Catholic Church with all her different rites like the Roman rite are all the True Church who are all in full communion with the Pope, the see of Peter.
This does not mean that salvation is only in the Catholic Church. There is a lot of Truth and there are also other real churches in the Orthodox faith. Within Mainline Protestants we share a great deal of Truth about Salvation, but they are wounded by their lack of Apostolic Succession, lack of all the 7 Sacraments, and they have not held to the God ordained hierarchy of Bishop, Priest, Deacon and cannot be called Churches in the proper sense only in the familiar sense. Protestants have enough Truth to be saved, but they are wounded by the fact they have split so many times and continue to water down with every generation the original deposit of faith handed down through the Apostles. Their lack unity through biblical interpretation has created such divisions that it makes it more difficult to let non-believers know Jesus was who he said he was.
We can say that the Catholic Church is the one true church having been founded on Peter and continued through Apostolic succession. We do accept all Protestants and Evangelicals as sepparated brothers and sisters in Christ.
And why are the Catholics so filled with pride that they always point to themselves...and not to God?
But I am certainly glad I'm a part of God's true Church. A church that has no name other than Jesus Christ. A church that doesn't rest it's salvation on a church name. Jesus said the Holy Spirit would fall on us (everyone who allows it to), and will lead them into all truth. He didn't say that the Holy Spirit would fall on Catholics and lead them alone into all truth.
"so I did nothing illegal at all... Please. I'm a lawyer HAHAHA! "
Now THERE's a contradiction in terms! :D
""I build my church upon this rock" to Peter, giving him papal supremacy, therefore the RCC is the ONLY true Church."
I didn't see the words "Roman Catholic" in that verse. But I do see that Peter was a great evangelist and spread the gospel to all people, thus creating the True Church.
Alright I've got to go for now. So just to wrap things up... you're a terrible person, Mrs. Grinch. You're a mean and nasty soul. Your smile is full of termites and your heart is full of rot. Mrs. Griiiiiinch. When you act like a dog nobody wants to be around you. So have a very lonely Christmas, Mrs. Theocrat.
Yea, I checked. Jones is definitely saved, since he was baptized according to your status quo, oh magnificent Justicar. I am so comforted that the Lord appointed someone as wise and omniscient as you to judge over all of humanity.
Star2-
Oh be quiet, you are constantly judging me and everyone else. You've stated several times that I will go to Hell if I do not leave the Church. Jesus said "I am with you all days from now unto the consummation of the world" He was talking about a CHURCH. Jesus said "I build my church upon this rock" to Peter, giving him papal supremacy, therefore the RCC is the ONLY true Church. Note I'm not saying that you or anyone else will go to Hell, I'm just saying we are the only right Church, and no church is a wrong church as well. Any church besides the RCC has no authority to dictate anything at all or even hold times of worship. The RCC is the ONLY church that has authority over anything relating to God or the Bible. No Protestant Church can pass any judgment on scripture because they have no authority to do so. Only we can do this. That doesn't mean that anyone (besides you of course) can pass judgment on individual people. Only God (and you of course) can do this.
And who was Ignatius a heretic towards? To me he's a saint. To you he's a heretic. From my point of view Martin Luther was a heretic. As well as Jones, that Protestant that poisoned tons of people with his cool-aid. But he's a Protestant so he's saved, right?
Star2-
I never hacked into your computer, in fact that wasn't even your account posting, so I did nothing illegal at all. Hack? Please. I'm a lawyer HAHAHA! You think a lawyer would know how to hack? I'm one of the Boomers for Christ's sake! I grew up with word processors. Anyway, I was arguing a while back that those in complete ignorance of God's message could still be saved by good and heroic virtue. You said something along the lines of "no they will go to Hell." And I could tell that Online and Prophet were a bit put off because they never once said "Amen amen." to what you said or agreed with you at all. In fact after you posted those comments they tried to change the subject.
The Word of God says you are hell-bound tliml, not me. God's Word is what will judge you on judgment day.
tliml
Saint Ignacious was no saint, he was a heretic.
Ignorance of scriptures buddy is no excuse. Die in your sins and you will perish.
I showed you from the Word of God what it means to be born-again and why you cannot be thru the teachings and practices of the RCC. I did not pass judgment on you. I was not ugly in my post as you have been numerours times with me since I first met you.
I don't recall having said, "Before you were saying "Anyone who does not know the word of God, cannot go to heaven and will go to hell, that's just how it is." Where might I find that?
>>>Even Online and Prophet were a little put off by your attitude.<<<
Did they really indicate that they were put off? Prove it. Did they write it or did you by using their name and hacking into their computer to find out what their password was?
By the way, I find it quite hilarious that five minutes after you declare me as hell-bound, you say you wish me and my family well. You are one sick puppy.
Haha I learned that one from a technician at IBM. Yea, that was me. But really star, who are you to sit in a seat of judgement. Did not Saint Ignacious say "And where the Bishop is let so the people also be there, for that is where God is"? If we choose to take this "literally" then shouldn't you be in a church? And it seems to me that you judge QUITE a lot. Before you were saying "Anyone who does not know the word of God, cannot go to heaven and will go to hell, that's just how it is." Even Online and Prophet were a little put off by your attitude. Martin Luther said "Judging when not to judge is the greatest sin of all." If you believe in the wisdom of Martin Luther, you are committing grave sin after grave sin. If my Church doesn't follow the scripture is that my fault? We learn that God is a merciful God with wisdom, justice, and patience. Would it be wise OR just to send someone to Hell when it was no fault of their own that they were ignorant? I'm not sure but I have faith that God will lead me in whatever is the right direction. So while you pick, point, and choose, God'll be smiling and I'll be laughing. In a nice way of course.
Awe....that's so beautiful....
Thanks Daniel Paul.
"but thelordismylight wanted to know."
...to every man an answer....
":P, :O, and :D mean?"
Fair question. I have worked with computers since before the desktop existed and I didn't know at first. You have to look at them sideways. The : are the eyes. A :P is a tounge out the side of the mouth which is a rasberry if memory serves. A :D is an open mouth smile and a :-) is the eyes, nose and smile mouth. A :( is a frown and so on.
What does :P, :O, and :D mean?
>>>"I am a born-again, bible believing, pentecostal Christian. I attend and I am a member of a non-demoninational pentecostal Church. "
I figured that out a long time ago!!! :D <<<
Daniel Paul, but thelordismylight wanted to know. He asked and I responded. I told him a long time ago what my 'religion' was, about a year ago now, but he apparently has forgotten. I haven't dialoged with him for a very long time, so he probably just forgot. Sometimes I forget things about people too. We are all human.
"I am a born-again, bible believing, pentecostal Christian. I attend and I am a member of a non-demoninational pentecostal Church. "
I figured that out a long time ago!!! :D
"It is a unique company."
Sounds like the Crosby management system on steriods! It sounds like your company is the model I am looking to base mine on. Everyone can earn an equal footing in the company after a period of time.
tliml - Haven't seen you in a real long time. Hope you, your son, wife, and mother are all doing well.
How is business over there at IBM? Hope not too many people are wanting to sue IBM. If they are, I guess that would keep you busy. But I guess you have a lot on your plate anyway seeing that you are a corporate lawyer for them. Talk with you another time.
God loves you.
thelordismylight
I am a born-again, bible believing, pentecostal Christian. I attend and I am a member of a non-demoninational pentecostal Church.
Hi Star,
My apologies first of all, my degree is undergraduate not graduate, I got confused, sorry to mislead you it was not delibrate. I only set out in 2004 to do a short course and have somehow eneded up here, I get confused by some of the terms.
I work in a supermarket for a company that is owned by the people who work within it, we share the profits and the losses, the sucesses and the failures, we have no shareholders. It is a unique company.
Steve
steveh20
What is your undergraduate degree in and what do you do for a living?
Thanks slacker, much appreciated.
thelordismylight
Part 1
Acts 16:30-31 (King James Version)
30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
Believing on the Lord Jesus Christ is what saves you. Not baptism.
Baptism will not save you. You must believe on the Lord Jesus Christ first. Your belief comes through the Holy Ghost convicting your heart that you are a sinner in need of a savior and that Savior is Jesus Christ. Baptism is an act of obedience to the Lord Jesus Christ and completes the salvation experience. Getting wet will not wash away anything. God through the Holy Ghost is the one who washes away your sins and He does it through your belief and your act of obedience to His command to be baptized.
Part 2
>>>So you believe that since I am Catholic I am doomed to Hell for eternity?<<<
I say that Catholics are not Christian because the way they get 'saved' is not scriptural. You have to violate the teaching of John 1:12-13 to say that Catholics are saved. There are probably a few but some of those end up leaving the Catholic Church.
Scripture teach that a person does not become a child of God because he was born into a Christian family (by blood), he decided on his own to be saved without God convicting his heart of his need for salvation (will of the flesh), or his parent(s) decided for him when he was an infant (will of man). A person becomes a child of God by being born-again by the Spirit of God when God decides (will of God). (John 1:12-13). When God decides it is time for you to make a decision for Jesus He will move on you by drawing you to Jesus, He will convict your heart of your need for a Savior and He will grant you grace to receive Jesus as Savior and Lord. (John 1:12-13, John 6:44, Romans 10:9-10,13)
John 1:12-14
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
John 6:44 - No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day."
Romans 10:9-10,13
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Part 3
If you can't see that scripture teaches that a lost person becomes born again of the Spirit of God when that person hears that he/she (hereafter refered to as he) is a sinner deserving of eternal damnation, that Jesus paid for his sins by dying on the cross for him, that God raised Jesus from the dead showing His power over death, accepts what Jesus did for him, turns to God in prayer confessing to God that he is a sinner, asking God to forgive him of his sins because of what Jesus did for him, asks Jesus to come live in his heart, and be the Lord (boss) of his life then you don't know what it takes to be born-again.
Scripture also teaches that one of the evidences that a person has truly been born of the Spirit of God is that the believer has a changed life; he is no longer the same person (2 Cor 5:17).
QUESTION: thelordismylight, have you ever really been born-again by the Spirit of God through conviction in your heart that you were a sinner in need of a savior and that Savior was Jesus Christ?
Or did you become 'saved' when your parent(s) had you baptized as an infant and then later in life you affirmed your 'belief'?
To Steve:
"Hi Star, yeah, the degree is at graduate level but I'm not a geologist in the professional/ full time sense, more an informed amature, it will be at least five years before I'm finished (I hope). I work full time and in my own time study, I've lost counts of the times Ihave seen the Sun rise as I complete an assignment."
I have been in that situation, good luck with your degree...
"States which do not allow homosexuals to marry will be "pilloried" to recognize same-sex marriage and "made an object of pressure," Migliore said. "
I would definitely be against this, I don't force anyone to believe as I do, and I expect the same respect.
Star-
Let's get out with it right now. With all your rash and bold comments, surely you aren't afraid to tell us what specific religion you are? I'm Roman Catholic. There, now you try.
Star-
So you believe that since I am Catholic I am doomed to Hell for eternity? I'm sorry, but in my opinion you are just a terrible person. I'd like to point out that government press releases have shown there are almost twice as many convicted molesters in Protestant faiths as the Catholic faith. Talk about being born again. Oh and as for your whole baptism as an adult thing? What happens if they die before baptism? If Baptism, Jesus' official sacrament, doesn't save us, then what possibly can? Are you in a seat to judge? Did God make you the supreme Praetor-Justicar of the world? I doubt it. Seems to me that you are a pompous, overzealous, hypocritical, and vile human being, intent on nothing but spreading misery among those that you disagree with. Does the bible ever give a specific age of Baptism? No? I didn't think so. But don't worry, in a week when the Protestants edit the bible, you can probably get them to change whatever you want. After all, it's only the Bible right? And as for masturbation, that was NOT an official Vatican release, in fact there was nothing factual or official about it.
Oh and as for star's comments about what women want, I always thought star was a woman. :P I'm not sure I interpret them the same way as everyone else. I believe I have a fairly "Traditional American" view of the wife's duty. I more or less supply the income and she more or less raises the children and takes care of the house. Before you start screaming your little heads off... what's wrong with this? I mean seriously. If I bring in enough income why should she have to work? I think my wife quite enjoys her life, and I know we share a very deep love. Yet we're going to hell. :O Ha... star, I'm supposed to love you, but you're making it extremely easy to hate you.
Maybe the reason the RCC clergy has such a problem with sexual immorality and can't find victory over it is because they are not truly born-again, and do not have the power of God in their lives. Infantile baptism cannot save you, agreeing with the teachings and practices of the Catholic Church at confirmation cannot save you, and one does not receive the Holy Ghost when the Priest slaps him/her on the cheeck and says, "Receive the Holy Ghost" during their confirmation as a young person/teenager.
The false teachings and practices of the RCC leaves a person dead in their sins, lost, and without hope not only in this world but for all eternity.
msnchris70
A Catholic website claims that masturbation is a problem among RCC priests.
From a Catholic Website (www.couragerc.org) you gave on the CP article:
Discussion of Religion, Homosexuality, Ttherapy Canceled Amid Protest", May 05,2008
Overcoming the Masturbation Habit
The Patoral Problem of Masturbation by John F Harvey, OSFS
"Masturbation among Priests and Brothers
Generally speaking, temptations to masturbate among priests and brothers are related to emotional factors, such as loneliness, self-hatred, anger, and incidents from the past.... Nonetheless, they often feel that they are living a double life, known as celibates to those who work with them every day, and yet feeling shame at the practice of MASTURBATION, which is FREQUENTLY COMPULSIVE. Many are influenced by the pan sexual ambience in which we all live, for example, it is not unusual for a religious or priest, wearied by the taxing occupations and conferences of the day, to turn on cable TV, and to wind up viewing a sexually stimulating film before retiring. The effects can be a pattern of masturbation and disturbed sleep."
Face it Chris, sexual immorality run rampant among the clergy in the RCC. Do an internet search on the topic and you will see how hugh of a problem it really is.
msnchris70
>>>Oh yeah, and the reason people have not attacked his numbers or his research in general is because the research community thinks he is a "WHACK JOB". <<<
Sorry chris70, the Vatican doesn't seem to agree wtih you about the numbers.
From the article
Celibacy Is A Problem for Priests, And Laity Too
By A.W. Richard Sipe
"When in 1994 a BBC television reporter faced Cardinal Jose Sanchez, Prefect of the Congregation of the Clergy at the Vatican with those and other figures from the study, the Cardinal's response was, "I have no reason to doubt the accuracy of those figures." "
Merry CHRISTmas to you all. Yes, and that means you too STAR2!
Star2,
I know Christmas is not explicitly in the Bible, but the birth of our Lord is and you may or may not celebrate Christmas because this day was created by Catholics to honor our Lord for being born, and this is why they call it Christmas or the Mass of Christ, but I hope you will join the rest of us Christians in celebrating Jesus' birth.
Yes, it is a Tradition and a good one at that! Jesus is the only reason for the season.
Oh yeah, and the reason people have not attacked his numbers or his research in general is because the research community thinks he is a "WHACK JOB". Giving any attention to a person who has a questionable reputation to start, actually would give him credibility. So most research scholars ignore him. Like most people who have little objective credibility in research. No one of credibility will ever reference him, thereby making him irrelevant.
Star2,
I am never surprised what you find on the internet. Basically anything that is against the Catholic Church you choose to publish here even if the person in question who wrote the article is an anti-Catholic and is a person known for questionable research over the last 20 years.
I'm sure an anti-Catholic like this person is objective. Not. Also, I went to this website and none of this study can be corroborated by any credible institution or research scholarship or by any third party research agency. You see, this is your problem Star2. You believe whatever you read without an ounce of research if it is against Catholics. You just assume it is true.
Again, this doesn't surprise me either. I also found on the internet that Pentecostals worship Aliens too!
The internet even makes unreliable resources seem credible for those unwilling to do their own objective research.
You are consistent Star2. Stick with Math.
Hi Star, yeah, the degree is at graduate level but I'm not a geologist in the professional/ full time sense, more an informed amature, it will be at least five years before I'm finished (I hope). I work full time and in my own time study, I've lost counts of the times Ihave seen the Sun rise as I complete an assignment.
BW
Steve
Mike,
Sorry, I flagged you because of your strong insult against me.
msnchris said:"Yes, homosexuals may very well love each other and have strong relationships or not. This is not the issue. The issue is that homosexuals who are active sexually are going against God's design. Their act is disordered, unnatural and uncomplimentary.
Also, don't forget ANY SEX outside of Marriage is a grave sin. So, all heterosexuals who are having sex outside of marriage need to be accountable as well.
Exactly the point!
The gay lobby is trying to obfuscate the issue by claiming "homosexuality" is a crime. Nowhere in the world is "homosexuality" a crime. Homosexual ACTS are a crime in some countries, but nowhere in North America or Europe.
All men are sinners, and all are tempted by sin, but the temptation to commit a sexually immoral act is not a sin. The sin is when that immoral act is committed, whether it be hetero or homosexual.
Do not let the issue be confused.
steveh20 - Is this degree at the graduate level? Do you work as a geologist?
Thanks Star.
I'm doing a degree in geosciences, that comprises of completing various courses, each of which lasts about 9 months. Each course consists of a number of assignments with an exam at the end covering the basics of the subject. To pass the coursEs one has to gain a required numbers of marks in the course work "and" the exam.
BW
Steve
steveh20
>>>P.s very happy, passed my exam in planetary science.<<<
Glad you passed your exam but why did you have to take the exam?
Hi believer, thanks for your comment,already up to speed on that one. The English lanuage can be odd, that one word can have a multitude of meanings, which is why I find blanket statement on a particular one perculiar in the least.
BW
Steve
P.s very happy, passed my exam in planetary science.
Hi Prophet
Hope your keeping well.
Steve
msnchris70
The following article I found on the internet reveals the sexual sins of the fathers. I included some excerpts from the article.
Celibacy Is A Problem for Priests, And Laity Too
By A.W. Richard Sipe
http://www.richardsipe.com/Articles/Celibacy_is_a_Problem.html
... But celibacy is undeniably a problem for priests...
...A study of Swiss priests published on May 12, 2003, revealed that 50% of that clergy had mistresses. Father Victor Kotze, a South African sociologist conducted a survey of the priests in his country (1991) and found that 45% had been sexually active during the previous two year period.
Pepe Rodriguez published his book length study of the sexual life of clergy in Spain (La Vida sexual del Clero 1995). He concluded that among practicing priests 95% masturbate; 7% are sexually involved with minors and 26% have "attachments to minors;" 60% have sexual relations, 20% have homosexual relations.
He further refined the figures of 354 priests who were having sexual relations:
53% of these were having sex with adult women, 21% with adult men, 14% were sexually active with minor boys and 12% with minor girls. Although Rodriguez' book caused a monumental debate no one has challenged the reality of his numbers.
My 25 year ethnographic study of celibacy published in 1990 had drawn comparable conclusions about the celibate/sexual activity of Catholic priests in America. I stand by my findings that at any one time 50% of American clergy are sexually active. When in 1994 a BBC television reporter faced Cardinal Jose Sanchez, Prefect of the Congregation of the Clergy at the Vatican with those and other figures from the study, the Cardinal's response was, "I have no reason to doubt the accuracy of those figures."
steveh20, the Bible says we should not lust after another woman, lusting after ones own wife is perfectly fine and sure makes married life a whole lot more exciting.
Well I lust for my wife and she lusts for me, so we must both be sinners, and since the kids left to go to university the sinning just gets worse!!
Masturbation is lust. Lust is a sin.
star2, sounds reasonable to me!:)
steveh20 - Everyone is entitled to their opinion about said subject. However, I maintain that scripture implies that that activity is sinful.
Star, thanks for the follow up and sorry I did not get back to you sooner. Cutting a long story short, I see no problem with masterbation, in fact in a realtionship in which one partners drive is stronger than the other it can be a godsend if you get my drift, I doubt God cares one bit about it. I think it only becomes a problem if it becomes the sexual substitute in a marriage to the detriment of the other partner. As for young men, as it always has so it shall always be
Steve
But I will add this. My wife is an awesome helpmate. We have worked in ministry together for many years now. And where I am weak, she is the strength...and vice versa. We compliment each other greatly, because we are so opposite. Jesus sent His disciples off in pairs for a reason. So if one should stumble, the other could pick him up. But again, a lot of times marriage situations can overshadow what is supposed to be going on in the ministry.
And I will say this, being married. I'd be crazy to take marriage counsel from a priest who is not married. Yet, people still do.
star,
Amen. Paul encourages us who are involved in ministry to remain single and celibate, in order to keep our focus on God. Unfortunately, the Catholic Church takes that as a command, instead of an exhortation. But I do agree (being married myself) that family life does tend to curtail ministry.
believer, maybe one of the reasons why God made men with the ability to concentrate only on one thing at a time is so he would die to what he wants (watch TV, read the newspaper, etc) to meet the needs of his wife.
Maybe God made women multitaskers so they could fulfil their role in life as a mother. Moms often have to watch what the kids are doing while she is changing diapers on the new born, cleaning house, making supper, washing the clothes, talking on the phone about who will be picking up the olders kids for ballet or soccer, or planning the next birthday party with those who are involved all at the same time!
msnchris70
I agree with believer here when he says, ""priest are neither homosexual or heterosexual", would it be better said they do not participate in any kind of sexual activity "
In Oct 1980 I made a commitment to God to remain single all my life to serve Him. I did not become asexual. I did not lose my heterosexuality. God gave me the grace to be single (have no interest in marriage) in order to remain sexually pure. Only once was I interested in a man in church where I thought about wanting to marry him (there was no romance in our relationship though, only a common interest in serving the Lord). I felt like he had marriage interest with me also. But I decided to break his interest in me because I had made a vow to God to remain single all my life to serve Him. When I did, God restored to me my lack of interest in marriage. Praise God.
steveh20
You made the follwing statement:
>>>your comment about men who masterbate frequently to fufill their sexual desires, you make that sound like a bad thing..... <<<
I responded to you with an answer I gave on Yahoo!Answers to a young man who had a problem with maturbation, couldn't stop but wanted too by referring you to that site.
In the past you have always or at least a good number of times responded to any post I have made especially if it was directed to you personally. Since you have not responded then I assume you didn't read it. Maybe you have, I don't know. At any rate, here was the question and my answer to it in case you didn't read it.
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index;_ylt=AoUczAsq87a0rQWpgeH1R1Tty6IX;_ylv=3?qid=20080102082343AAnFSV6&show=7#profile-info-g1aVZQuyaa
Yahoo!Answers Question:
This is wrong, I need help!?
I masterbate a lot, a few times a week, and I know that it is wrong. God does not want this, but I can't stop for some reason. I also am trying to hold out for marrage, and thus far, I only masterbate, but still it is bad. I need help plz!
My answer:
Go to God in prayer. Give thanks to God that His Son the Lord Jesus Christ died for your sins and rose from the dead. Also give thanks to God that you can have freedom from sin in Christ Jesus because of what He did for you. Acknowledge to God that masturbation is wrong and that you have no control over it. Ask God to forgive you and to set you free from it. Tell God that you want to save yourself for marriage and ask Him to help you be sexually pure. Thank Him in advance for answering your prayers in Jesus' name.
(continued)
(continued)
Source(s):
The above is based on the following Biblical principles:
You are correct in saying that masturbation is wrong. The Apostle Paul says in 1 Corinthians 7:3, "Let the husband render unto the wife due benevolence: and likewise also the wife unto the husband." "benevolence" here is an euphemism for 'conjugal duty' according to the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance (SEC). The Apostle Paul further says in 1 Corinthians 7:4, "The wife hath not power of her own body, but the husband: and likewise also the husband hath not power of his own body, but the wife." "power" here, according to SEC, means 'control'. This 'control' is what a man(woman) does to the woman (man) in the sexual act to arouse her (him) sexually. The wife is the one who is to control the sexual excitment (arousal) of the husband's body and likewise the husband is to control the sexual excitment (arousal) of the wife's body. From this scripture we can deduce that it is not the individual's right to sexually arousal one's self which is what masterbation does. To do so would be a sin.
When Jesus died on the cross He paid for our sins so that we could be forgiven. When He rose from the dead, death was defeated. Sin brings forth death in our mortal bodies while we are alive and eternal death if we die in our sins. However, if we believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and receive Him as our Savior and Lord, then His death and resurrection will not only gives us eternal life when we die, but it can gives us victory over sin in our life if we ask Him to forgive us and to set us free.
Jesus said the following in John 8:34,36, " 34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin...36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed."
How God will set you free from the sin of masturbation I do not know. He might deliver you completely from masturbation (meaning there is no more sexual feelings in your body that drives you to masterbate) or He might give you the power not to masterbate when the temptation comes. If it is the latter then if you will submit to God (submit to the power God gives you not to masterbate) and resist the devil (the temptation to masturbate) then the devil (or the temptation to masterbate) will flee from you (James 4:7). Over time, the sexual feelings in your body that drives you to masterbate will leave.
It is God's will that you save yourself for marriage. The Word of God says in 1 Thessalonians 4:3, "For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication:" God's Word also says in 1 John 5:14, "And this is the confidence that we have in him (Jesus), that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us:" It is God's will that you remain sexually pure before marriage and after marriage (don't commit adultery, don't look at pronographic material and etc). He will help you to do so if you will ask Him.
chris, "priest are neither homosexual or heterosexual", would it be better said they do not participate in any kind of sexual activity since I know personally a number of priests and even some nuns who left their orders because they fell in love and now they are both married and raising a family and some of the priest married nuns who they were in the same parish with and were becoming romantically involved before they left their orders.
steveh20
I will clarify better by what I meant when I said, "Women view thier worth by what their husband or man is, does, and has."
When women are together and they are talking about what their husbands do for a living, for example, as the woman is sharing she has in her heart a feeling of oneness with her husband. How her husband views himself in his job becomes how she views herself regardless of what she does, whether she is a housewife/mother, an engineer, a lawyer, etc.. At the monent she feels like that, how she views herself in her job no longer matters. This is the best that I can do to explain it.
believer,
i agree with you. i am an exception to that rule. my wife will be talking to me and i'll be playing withe dogs and then keep looking over at the tv, and then start picking out the fuzz from between my toes and playing with it. and my wife will get frustrated and say i'm not even listening to her. then i'll repeat almost word for word everything she just told me in the last 5 minutes. it drives her nuts.
but a friend of mine pointed out that i may have heard her, and can repeat everything she said, but i wasn't listening.
Hi Steveh20,
In the last 40 years of liberalism that has affected a great many churches, our Catholic church has suffered as well. In response to your question, Pedophilia and Homosexualism is not the same thing. I know of quite of few Priests who I know very well who before they were Priests tended to be very active heterosexuals sexually. This is a grave sin. Then they came to the Lord, consecrated themselves to Christ, and promised a life of obediance, chastity and poverty. They are truly Holy Priests. Also, they gave up that sinful lifestyle well before becoming a Priest.
I do know of a few Priests who had homosexual tendencies before they were Priests. They also realized the grave sin that they took part in before becoming a Priest and they too consecrated themselves to the Lord and took vows of obediance, chastity and poverty.
In the past they let in FLAMING gays into the Priesthood. They also let in Priests who were active heterosexuals too outside of marriage. The last 40 years we've seen very little screening. Before Vatican II they did a much better job screening. Today they are doing better too. They have psychological tests, personality tests, interviews and references. They must not have lived an actively gay lifestyle for many years to become a Priest today. If their tendencies were remote and never took part in the lifestyle and they have given their hearts to Christ, then they will be allowed to become a Priest.
Priests are neither homosexual or heterosexual after they become a Priest. They are consecrated to God and therefore their sexuality is of no relevance since they live a celibate life.
The whole Pedophilia issue with the Priests was terrible, and no one was more upset than us Catholics. We felt betrayed by many of our Bishops who moved bad priests around and failed to address the issue, but at the same time the vast majority of Bishops did the right thing.
I think in any church you will find that the vast majority of Pastors or Priests do the right thing, and it is the sins and mistakes of the few that bring all ministers of God down unfortunately.
jester and steveh20, one thing I learned recently is that most men can only track one conversation at a time and most women can track multiple conversations which means when were watching the big game or big match and our wives want to talk with us and they can't understand why we won't or can't that its because they could watch the TV and carry on a conversation with them, but we can't. When I shared that with my wife she told me she thought I had just been ignoring her, which in some cases was probably true, and didn't realize that I could only concentrate on one thing at a time.
Hello Jester, yes I agree with what you write about the way men and woman think. The thing I might add is that, and I can only speak from my own experience, is the way men think changes as they grow older, sex etc..takes on a deeper diffrent meaning, whilst important, its not the be all and end all a younger man might have thought. Other things change as well, take the spiritual out look on life, the absolute certainties of faith, or what thought was faith, don't seem so certain, one becomes less judgemental of other people (well not always). People are complicated. I'll look up your book, try checking out the Susan Howatch Starbridge series, the most Christian novels I have read.
Keep well
Steve
steve,
you should read the book "the five love languages" (i think it's five). it explains a lot how people find affirmation. i know that's a long way from sex, but it would explain a lot about people. in my experience men are visual thinkers, women are not. its the whole "left brain, right brain" thing.
men typically think of sex as recreation. women think of it as love/commitment.
steveh20, I'm not saying this is the way it always is or should be, but for many this indeed is reality. My son and his wife are living proof that this is not always true, but then I think we raised him to realize that a healthy self-worth is based on who he is and not what he is or what he does, that his Mom and I love, accept, and approve of him simply because he's our son and that'll never change and that is true of God as well, but unfortunately there are many children and adults who have never heard that.
steveh20, I used to think the same about my wife until I honestly asked her about this while I was taking a class on these very issues. Of course there was a time when I thought any women would love a practical gift for their birthday.
Cease wondering believer, its down to what she says, or is it I know the wrong sort of women? My wife says that if her self worth was based on what I earnt etc..she'd feel really bad about herself, one day I'll get even with her....
Plus where many women attempt to get their worth through approval, many men attempt to get their worth through recognition of their accomplishments, being the best, making it to the top first, having the most trophies, and so on. This can be done through either receiving recognition verbally or in the form of a trophy or honor. The problem with both ot these is that neither was God's plan in the first place, but thanks to sin and the consequences of sin here we are.
I'm wondering if some of your responses to star2 are a result of your view of her as opposed to what she is saying, since what she has said does have validity. Many women find their worth in the approval of their father when they are growing up and their husband when they are married, that is why co-dependency is much more prevelant in women than in men. And tallguy your right we should be finding our worth in Christ alone based on the fact that He went to the Cross on our behalf and if we lived in a perfect and sin-free world that would be true. One study I read calls this the twirling skirt syndrome where a little girl will twirl around in her new dress or outfit hoping her Dad will both notice and approve and how many of you husbands have not had your wife constantly ask you how she looks when she is getting ready to go out, which is her way of getting your approval. And please note these actions for approval are often done subconciously on the part of many women.
You might me quite right J, I can only go by the women I know, and I don't know you or star, if you get my drift.
star,
wow! it seems you have drawn out all the insecure men in this room. good job. apparently they know more about a womans personality than a woman does. now THAT is sexist.
WOW Star, I though Christian women were to view their worth in Christ! This is amazing! You say "Women view thier worth by what their husband or man is, does, and has".
You're not married, so do you feel worthless? You always sound so angry in your posts, maybe this is why?
You need to give your heart to Christ!
Star
your comment about from whence a woman draws her feelings of self worth is pants, in fact it might rate as one of the most derogratory things I have ever read about the fairer sex, I can only wonder if it reflects something about the writers own life.
Steve
Star, that's a pretty radically sexist comment about where women find their worth.
jester in the Kings court
Men are sexually aroused by sight. Women are sexually aroused by touch.
Heterosexual and homosexual men are both aroused sexually by sight; the heterosexual man for the woman and the homosexual man for another man.
The dynamics for a woman are different. The woman would commit adultery by desiring in her heart a relationship with a handsome man, especially one that she believes holds a job that she values as having worth, has money, and potentially fulfils her dreams of being important which eventually would result in some form of intimate sexual contact. Women view thier worth by what their husband or man is, does, and has.
but wait! it doesn't say anything about a woman lusting after a man...or a man lusting after another man....
steveh20
To find a woman (man) attractive if you are a man (woman) is not sinful unless you desire in your heart to have sex with that person.
For a hetrosexual man to find another male handsome doesn't mean he is committing a sexual sin. Likewise, for a female to find another female attractive doesn't mean she is committing a sexual sin. However, if that person's attractiveness leads you to desire in your heart to have sex with that person then it is a sin.
Matthew 5:27-28
27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
Jesus was speaking to hetrosexual men here. However, the principle applies to homosexual men as well.
steveh20
>>>your comment about men who masterbate frequently to fufill their sexual desires, you make that sound like a bad thing..... <<<
I use to post on Yahoo!Answers under the id 'average christian'. For my views, please read my answer to the question:
"This is wrong, I need help?"
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index;_ylt=AoUczAsq87a0rQWpgeH1R1Tty6IX;_ylv=3?qid=20080102082343AAnFSV6&show=7#profile-info-g1aVZQuyaa
Star, by celibate I mean that they do not enter in to physical relationships. Out of interest I'd be like to know do you think that finding other people attractive (for me it's women) is the same as lust? If that is the case then I am certainly guilty of that, sometimes my wife and I talk about other people we know, whom we think are attractive, is that lust? On a closing note, your comment about men who masterbate frequently to fufill their sexual desires, you make that sound like a bad thing.....
Of course, chris70, neither are many of the Protestants. Sin runs rampant in our society. We are in the last days. Repent or perish. Receive Jesus Christ from your heart as Savior and Lord and live for Him or the wrath of God will abide on you.
>>>The Catholic position on Homosexuality has been the same for 2000 years, love the sinner hate the sin.<<<
Yeah chris70, the RCC loved the sinner (Catholic Priests who violated young boys) so much they just moved the offending priests to anothe parish and refused to report the criminal offense to the police. They only dealt with the issue when they were forced too because of the public outcry. Face it Chris, the RCC clergy and Catholics in general are not holy than thou as you want everyone to believe.
>>>Hi Chris, hope your well. I was wondering how you feel about priests /pastors being homosexual but celibate? <<<
Celibate in what sense steveh20? In that they never have overt sexual contact or that they don't lust after others of the same sex?
Homosexual thoughts and tendencies are still an abomination in the eyes of God.
God loves the sexual sinner whether he/she be homosexual or hetrosexual. He can and does want to set people free.
chris70 - the sexual sins of the fathers abound. A number of them are caught up in pronography/xxx rated movies and masturbate frequently to fulfil their sexual desires. I got this info from one of your catholic websites you mentioned on a thread dealing with those coming out of the homosexual lifestyle.
Also, I have read that a number of men who want to go into the priesthood are homosexuals. Though testing is done by the RCC for such tendencies now, how many actually slip thru the cracks? Probabaly more than we care to think.
A number of homosexuals violate young children. They are easy prey. The closet homosexual priests still violate boys in their perishes; the difference between now and when this kind of sexual assualt became known to the public some years ago under Pope John Paull II reign is that these homosexual priest who violate young boys have not yet been exposed.
Yes, the Protestants have ministers that are involved in sexual infidelity and also a few actually violate children sexually. Compare, if it were possible, the number of occurance between the Catholics and Protestant I suspect that you'll find more of that behavior from the Catholic priests then you'll find in the Protestant ministers.
Sexual immorality, whether it be hetrosexual or homosexual, abounds in our society. A number of the Catholics I know or have heard about are sexually immoral, full of sin, and civil law breakers. The same, of course, goes for the protestants, and the atheists/agnostics.
We indeed are in the last days.
Hello Rolln4him, many thanks for the comments, I appreciated them. I'm sure what you write about gay relationships based soley on sex is true in many instances just as is the same for some hetrosexual relationships. The only thing I would add is that I have (as I have written before) experience of gay friends in good strong long term relationships which would put some hetrosexual ones to shame. I think that it is to easy to tar all gay relationships with the same brush.
Keep well
Steve
Hi Chris, hope your well. I was wondering how you feel about priests /pastors being homosexual but celibate? It seems to me the same as being hetrosexual and celibate. I'd be intrested to know your thoughts on the matter. I am glad you see the diffrence between homosexuals and child molesters
Regards
Steve
stevo -
You mentioned that it's not all about sex for some homosexuals. I've heard this from other homosexuals as well - on these discussion boards. I do believe that there are gay relationships that exist just to provide strength to the cause. In other words, there really isn't a relationship. In these cases, sure, there's no sex. But to say that someone loves another and not have the benefits of sex may also explain why promiscuity exists so prevalently within the gay community. Gay sex is really nothing short of 2nd best to God's design. Satan is always 2nd best. Gays aren't able to produce biological children - 2nd best by choice for the gay community. There are heart wrenching stories of heteros not able to have children, but this is not a choice and is very sad. Gays are often able to have children, but for the sake of their supposed orientation, they leave no heritage for their families. Truly this is selfishness.
I guess the bottom line, in my opinion, is that gays that say it's not about sex are not being sincere. For the males particularly, sex is a huge part of being married. To say that it's not about sex is somewhat like buying a Ferrari and having a governor on it that allows you to only go 25 mph.
Star2,
Use the internet STar2! You will easilly see that between the early 1900's to the late 1970's. The Pentecostals and Baptists had more sexual misconduct among their pastors, than all of the cases against the Catholic Clergy combined.
Look it up! I think every church must do its very best to make sure no homosexuals can become pastors and no one with child attraction tendencies can be a pastor either.
The Catholic position on Homosexuality has been the same for 2000 years, love the sinner hate the sin.
Yes, homosexuals may very well love each other and have strong relationships or not. This is not the issue. The issue is that homosexuals who are active sexually are going against God's design. Their act is disordered, unnatural and uncomplimentary.
Also, don't forget ANY SEX outside of Marriage is a grave sin. So, all heterosexuals who are having sex outside of marriage need to be accountable as well.
Live in communion with God, or else.
Of course I will answer the question J.
From your comments concerning the possible basis for a gay relationship which as you pointed out that if its not about sex , then whats it about love? (which I might be wrong but think was sarcastic) I believed you where talking about gay friends and observations you had made about their relationships, as I could not see any other basis for your comments, as I don't believe you would make second hand ones from other people, books web sites etc... Was I wrong? Because if I was then and you had, I unreservadly apologise about you having gay friends and take back my comments, I was wrong to draw this infference, and that yes you had done that. However, if I was rightt then my original comment still stands.
BW
Steve
Grow up Star, the Church has NOT swept that horrible scandle under the rug. The situation has been dealt with, new policies are in place, and appologies have been given. Now it's your turn to appologize for your horrible comments.
oh cool. so now we know that incest marriages are kosher. sweet! but can you answer my question?
Jester, spoke to them, yep, it seems its about love (some definitions of which I gave earlier) and just not sex, so your earlier post seems to have hit the nail on the head regarding a possible basis for a gay relationship, congratulations.
steve,
so you've met my friends?
Would the Pope be in favor of no crimilization of homosexual priests who are exposed for pedaphelia?
The way the Vatican has swept this under the rug in the past I wouldn't be surprised.
Tell you what Jester, and this is the honest truth, we have a lesbian couple coming over to have dinner with us and the kids tonight, I'll ask them what their relationship is based on, we have an honest friendship.
My own observations are yes gay relationships can be based on love,I need to define what I mean by this. I mean friendship, support, comfort, enjoying being with each other, encouraging each other, being honest etc..just like hetrosexual realtionships. I don't understand why you think they can't do this as well? Its not rocket science.
I find it odd though that you feel gay people can't have a relationship that is not based just soley on sex (though of course sex is "a part" of a loving realtioship as you most likely know). Like you I have friends who are gay, but mine seem to be more balanced than yours.
BW
Steve
steve,
" I was raisng the issue that its odd that when being gay is raised peoples minds seem to so striaght to the issue of sodomy..."
no. you were raising the issue of when talking about being gay, minds turn to sex...not sodomy. anyone reading your post can see that. so, if it's not about sex, then what's it about? love? then that supports my previous message about incest.
Your right, it seems quite straight forward to me, there is no way that homosexuality should be illegal in any country at any place and at any time, punishemnt for sexual orientation between consenting adults is abhorant and should be for any right minded person.
steveh20, I agree, but I'm kind of getting use to seeing us go a totally different direction than the article itself!
They don't oppose decriminalizing homosexuality is words but refuse to do it in actions. Then your refusal is silent approval of those who do criminalize and unjustly punish and (some times) execute gays and lesbians. Refusing to step in is in itself an action, and the church has chosen to put itself behind those who encourage and support such immoral and unjust laws.
"It is a position that respects the rights of the human person, in his dignity"
This is a rather broad explanation.
A human being can consider it within his/her "dignity" to commit many different sins.
These leaders want to respect that right? What are they afraid of?
Sorry Jester can't help you there as we seem to be on diffrent wave lengths, I was raisng the issue that its odd that when being gay is raised peoples minds seem to so striaght to the issue of sodomy,as if thats all it is about, I wonder if when the subject of marriage is brought up they think right away about intercourse?. I don't recall looking at my posts argueing for or against that practise either between two men or a man and a women, by the way I'd be intersted to know if people are against that also?
So to sum up feel free if you would like to make the leap from homosexuality to incest.
BW
Steve
believer
Maybe, but thats not the issue of this article.
Steve
steveh20, but it is the sexual practices of homosexuality that violates God's original and only design for sexual intimacy, as far as the specific sex act that is totally irrelavant to this issue, it is sexual intimacy outside of marriage that is the issue and God's original and only design for marriage is one man and one woman united as one for life in the sight of God.
well steve then theres no argument against any other kind of sex, is there? like incest.
I have to be honest rolln4him that I'm not such an expert on anal sex as you appear to be.
I find it interesting that as soon as being gay is raised your mind turns to the act of sex as if that is the only thing that defines a person.
i agree that homosexuality should not be a crime. that's ridiculous to kill someone because they're homosexual.
steveh20 - it doesn't take a whole lot of research to know that anal sex is unhealthy. It also doesn't take an anatomical genius to figure out that the anus is not designed take in, but rather to expel bodily waste. God has designed the body of the male and female perfectly to have sex. Sadly, the gay community (and even those in the heterosexual community seeking to "expand" their experience) is simply trying to emulate what the heterosexual community gets to enjoy. They've had to pay a heavy price for their perversion. Right?
Rolln4him, if you find sodomy un-natural and disgusting I really would not spend time pondering it, you will not be subject to such emotions then.
Steve
It wasn't too many years ago that the U.S. had the sodomy as a crime; in essence, making gay sex a crime. It is un-natural and disgusting, but in our day and age just about anything is go. Muslim nations will never allow the decriminalization of homosexuality - the Muslims will merely scof at the UN for such motions and they may throw a few bombs in there for good measure.