A best-selling atheist author claims that Christianity not only falsely takes credit for good in the world, but actually promotes immorality.
In a recent debate against a Christian scholar and pastor, Christopher Hitchens argued against the idea that Christianity is accountable for the spreading of moral principles such as how it is wrong to murder and steal.
The author of God Is Not Great: How Religion Poisons Everything also said there was a moral code similar to the “Golden Rule” in place even before Moses received the Ten Commandments.
“It appears that these values (murder, theft, perjury are wrong and courage and self-sacrifice are admirable) are universal and innate,” said Hitchens in a video posted on the Christian Broadcasting Network news web site on Friday. “And they also predate – well I wouldn’t say they predate all religion because there has always been some kind of religion – but they certainly predate monotheism and they certainly predate Christianity.”
Hitchens believes the basis for goodness and morality is “human solidarity” or the “brotherhood of man.”
Debate opponent and Christian representative Pastor Douglas Wilson of Christ Church in Moscow, Idaho, however, challenged Hitchens’ human solidarity claim as the basis of goodness by using Hitchens’ own acknowledgment that bad emotions are also innately in humans.
“The problem with grounding it (morality) in innate instincts, like human solidarity, is that we have competing, jostling instincts,” Wilson argued.
What is stopping people from engaging in evil if there is no absolute truth about what is good and what is bad, asked the senior fellow of theology at New Saint Andrews College in Moscow, Idaho, and the author of Letter from a Christian Citizen.
The Christian debater argued that people have a side that wants to engage in what is bad, for instance exterminate neighbors, but they also have a good side that wants to help their neighbor. Without an absolute truth found in the Scripture, people will all be left with – at best – an “eeny, meeny, miny, moe,” strategy on whether to act good or bad.
“How do you choose between them,” Wilson asked. “If the authoritative nature of morality comes from this innate status, what about our innate predisposition to go to war or commit genocide?”
Atheist Hitchens in an earlier segment said he firmly does not believe there is an absolute truth but only relative truth. Yet he acknowledges there are some objective truths held by all men such as murder is bad and honesty is good.
To strengthen his argument, Hitchens highlighted how Christians in the past have claimed an absolute truth but later embarrassingly had to revise the truth because science proved them wrong.
For instance, the church said that the universe revolved around the earth, but later it was discovered that the planets orbit the sun. All Christians also believed that the Genesis account was the literal events of creation until science introduced evolution and believers had to revisit or revise what they believed was the truth.
“An objection I have to religion, in other words, is it’s our first and worst attempt to making sense of things,” Hitchens declared. “First and worst – it happened when we were very afraid, very ignorant, and when we were terrified by natural order of events like earthquakes and floods that are susceptible to a much more easier explanation.” Continue >>
Christianity is not bad for the world but some christians are bad for Christianity i.e. Bush.
Yes maam, she's a Texas girl, much to the chagrin of the rest of her family. LOL.
Arn I thought that was the first name of one of the 4 Horsemen?
Prophet wrote: "Arn sharpenin' arn, as my sister says."
That's funny ~ good dialect! ;-)
beleiver,
Amen. Let's not get all "brother love" and everything. hahahaha.
Seriously, I also enjoy our discussions. Arn sharpenin' arn, as my sister says.
My thoughts on the subject:
http://wbmoore.wordpress.com/2009/01/04/who-saves-us-and-can-we-loose-our-salvation/
http://wbmoore.wordpress.com/2009/01/02/losing-ones-salvation-and-cheap-grace/
http://wbmoore.wordpress.com/2009/01/09/more-on-whether-one-can-loose-ones-salvation/
OKAY guys, let's not get all gushy now!:) Seriously, I truly enjoy fellowshipping and posting with you guys as well, be blessed as you both continue to serve Him, believer.
Forgivensinner,
Amen . . . O sing unto the LORD a new song; for he hath done marvellous things: his right hand, and his holy arm, hath gotten him the victory (Psalm 98:1).
Online wrote: "For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day (2Timothy 1:12)."
Another verse I can't seem to get through without breaking into song. :)
Believer,
Thanks for your patience and willingness to discuss this issue as long as you have . . . ultimately we can definitely say with absolute certainty:
For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day (2Timothy 1:12).
I personally enjoy having you on this site . . . stay encouraged brother.
God bless,
Online4Him
forgiven, a huge AMEN to that!!
online, as I said is the ability to persevere what keeps us saved or what proves we're saved. My sense is depending on what direction we lean in this argument will determine how we answer that question. Case in point, both MacArthur and Walvoord and Zuck say that 2 Peter 2:20 does not refer to believers. But we also know they lean to the eternal security side of the issue. And the Expositor's Bible Commentary and J. Vernon McGee seem to agree with them as well. But I don't know about you and prophet, but I'm fried on this issue, but I have thoroughly enjoyed the discussion. So let's call a truce and press on to other sites and see what God has in store. You guys have a great day in serving the Lord and we'll talk soon, believer.
I think we can surmise we should never take our salvation for granted. It's gift we should always remain grateful for.
Believer,
(The passage in Peter you referred to was speaking to false teachers and not true believers)
I dont know; it seems that not everyone is unanimous about 2 Peter 2:20 and that it only refers to unbelievers:
Adam Clarke says: But if, after having been healed, and escaped the death to which we were exposed, we get again entangled, enfolded, enveloped with them; then the latter end will be worse than the beginning: forasmuch as we shall have sinned against more light, and the soul, by its conversion to God, having had all its powers and faculties greatly improved, is now, being repolluted, more capable of iniquity than before, and can bear more expressively the image of the earthly.
John Wesley says: For if after they: Who are thus ensnared. Have escaped the pollutions of the world: The sins which pollute all who know not God. Through the knowledge of Christ: That is, through faith in him, 2Pe_1:3. They are again entangled therein, and overcome, their last state is worse than the first: More inexcusable, and causing a greater damnation.
Matthew Henry says: When men are once entangled, they are easily overcome; therefore should Christians keep close to the word of God, and watch against those who seek to perplex and bewilder them and that because, if men who have once escaped are again entangled, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
I do agree with John McArthur about this being a matter of faith . . . this is exactly what I have been proposing; as believers we choose to walk by faith/believe and I agree that Gods grace sustains us in our faith, howbeit, the question still remains . . . can a believer choose otherwise? I do not mean to press the issue but the other passages that I posted seem to suggest that they can . . . what about the other scriptural passages that I gave?
You are right . . . this is a very difficult issue to understand . . .
prophet and online, John MacArthur in his book, "The Power And Freedom Of Forgiveness" devotes a whole chapter to the unpardonable sin question. He sums it up like this, if a person is exposed to evidence that proves to them beyond a shadow of a doubt the source of all Christ's words and works and they still choose to reject Jesus as Savior and God and they are physically in the presence of Christ as the Jewish religious leaders were, then they are beyond forgiveness, since they've become so hardened that they have made up their hearts and minds to pay no attention to the Holy Spirit. It is a deliberate rejection of Christ in full light of the Holy Spirit's testimony. The only possible question is does Christ have to be physically present for this sin to occur. But once again were discussing a very difficult issue to clearly understand.
online, the passage in Peter you referred to was speaking to false teachers and not true believers.
But to be honest, I haven't thought about it much. Like you, I live my life so far removed from any possible "point of no return" so that I don't have to worry about whether my salvation is in question, or whether I committed the unpardonable sin.
Like others, I believe it is attributing God's works and miracles to satan. But that's my opinion.
prophet, so what is the unpardonable sin?
online, listen to what John McArthur says about perseverance, "The people who persevere are the same ones who are saved, not the ones whose love grows cold. God, as part of His saving work, secure's a believer's perseverance. True believers are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation. (I Peter 1:5)." Other passages that speak to this, John 10:28-29, Romans 8:38-39, I Corinthians 1:8-9, Philippians 1:6). Plus MacArthur also notes that the warnings and promises often appear side by side, for example Jude 21, keep yourselves in the love of God, he immediately points them to God, Jude 24, who is able to keep you from stumbling. The warnings and pleas are among the means God uses to secure this perseverance in that faith, the same faith that led us to become a believer in the first place. Once again it's all about faith and not works but as James says our works will show our faith. As we go on in this discussion I wonder if one's ability to persevere is not so much to keep us saved, but rather a proof of our salvation, in other words if a person is not genuinely saved he will not persevere, but if a person is genuinely saved he will persevere.
Ok. Sounds like a lot of convenient, but unscriptural, doctrine. The same way that the baptism of the Holy Ghost is explained away, and salvation by works.
prophet, as I shared earlier there are some who believe since Jesus Christ is no longer physically present it is impossible for one to commit the unpardonable sin of blaspheming the Holy Spirit and there are some who believe refusing to accept Christ as your Savior is a form of blaspheming the Holy Spirit since it is the Holy Spirit who convicts us of our need to be saved. For me I believe the only unpardonable sin is to know you need to accept Christ to be saved and you refuse to do so before you die and as a result are eternally separated from God in hell for all eternity.
Believer,
So there is no unpardonable sin?
Consider what Paul wrote: And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled in the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister (Colossians 1:21-23). Here Paul says that there is a possibility that Christians can fall away from the Lord if they dont continue in the faith. Notice that he is talking to people that are (in the faith), meaning that they are believers in Jesus Christ . . . right?
A similar passage talks about those that (have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ) and that they knew (the way of righteousness) 2 Peter 2:20-22; which means that they knew Jesus in a personal way but Peter goes on to say that they had (turned from) this experience and he also said that they would have been better off never to (have known the way of righteousness). That is a strong statement.
Again, the same idea is expressed: (if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off) Romans 11:22. And again: (Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils) 1 Timothy 4:1. How can someone depart from something unless they were once there?
It appears that a Christian can choose/turn from God and miss out on the joys of heaven. God seems to give us all the power to choose our own course. So, can a Christian choose to depart from Jesus just as sinners can choose to be saved? It is passages such as these continue to stir the debate . . .
Good morning . . . Here are a few more passages that should be considered for this discussion:
God gave His people the freedom to choose between these two options: I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live (Deuteronomy 30:15).
Jesus said: let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely (Revelation 22:17). Notice that He leaves the decision up to us. Gods people have had this same freedom to choose all throughout the Bible. The Lord gave the Israelites the same liberty to decide for themselves in Joshua 24:15 (And if it seem evil unto you to serve the Lord, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.)
The Bible also describes how Lucifer was once one of the highest angels in heaven. Unfortunately, Lucifer chose to abuse the privileges that God gave him and sought to overthrow heaven itself (Isaiah 14:12-20 & Ezekiel 28:13-19).
Lucifer chose to rebel . . . how did this happen? (Revelation 12:9)?
prophet, that's the exact reason I take the side of eternal security since no one can specifically show me what scripture teaches how to know when one has lost their salvation and God's Word would clearly spell that out considering what's at stake if a believer can and does lose their salvation. God's Word is clear on what it takes for a person to become a child of God and what it takes to live an effective Christian life and develop a close intimate relationship with our heavenly Father and yet does not specifically address how to know one has lost their salvation. Yes, there are verses that appear to teach one can lose their salvation, but none that specifically address how to know with all certainty one has lost their salvation. Plus there are verses that appear to teach that a true believer cannot lose their salvation that when we were saved we received at that very moment eternal life and if we can lose eternal life then it was never eternal life in the first place.
True. But God knows our hearts. And is simply denying God out of fear going to lose our salvation? Or is it denying God in defiance and logic? Actually, I see no difference. The Scriptures say that even cowards will not inherit the Kingdom of God. And if denying Christ out of fear is "acceptable" before God, then the millions of martyrs who held their faith have done so in faith. True, most may have held their faith completely out of love and relationship. But I'm sure there are many who held their faith out of the thought that they would lose their salvation if they were to deny Him.
But then those who denied Christ for fear of their life. Do they deserve a reward? But are you truly going to judge their heart and whether their salvation experience was true.
I believe there are people who do have a authentic, repentant salvation experience. But somewhere down through time they lose that attitude, and fall away.
believer and prophet,
Thank you for a stimulating and interesting discussion . . . may the Lord keep you both.
Peace
online, many kudos to your last post and we'll see you all tomorrow, be blessed as you continue to serve Him and to you as well prophet, believer
Believer,
As you mentioned this can and has been a subject of much debate . . . but I too do not make it a test for fellowship. This has been a very thought provoking subject that should compel us all to take our faith seriously. I do have a healthy respect for both sides as well . . . it is a blessing to study the thoughts of those who have labored so earnestly and sought to rightly divide the Word of truth. As one who finds himself in the middle of two poles I have benefitted from studying both camps. I can enjoy reading both Calvin and Wesley coming away with someone to digest.
prophet, so you're making the assumption that all the apostles were saved at the time Jesus gave them this power, if that's true are you also saying that Peter lost his salvation when he denied Christ three times? And if that's the case then according to Hebrews 6:4-6 Peter could not be saved again. Plus once again we have no specific record to show that Judas did indeed work any miracles or cast out any demons.
Yes, we have proof. Jesus gave ALL 12 power to cast out demons. It's right in the scriptures.
prophet, first off we have no record that Judas cast any demons out or worked any miracles, but we do have proof that he was a thief and a traitor, plus Matthew 7:22-23, says there were those who cast out demons and Jesus said He did not know them since they were not His.
online, I tend to agree about Saul and the others that I mentioned I believe most if not all had a genuine and real relationship with God and even though some did not finish well I believe they are in heaven with God, but as you said only God knows for sure. And that's why I've said from the start this issue is one of the most debated issues in the Church and if we allow it, it can become a very divisive issue and that's why I choose to not make it a point of fellowship with those who believe it is possible for one to lose their salvation and why I can also see the dangers of planting one's feet in concrete on either side of the issue, and yet I make no apology for leaning very heavily on the eternal security side and especially since I consider myself in very good company considering those who also espouse this view but I also have a high regard for some on the other side as well.
Jesus would not have given His power to one that didn't believe. Otherwise, when Jesus said "These signs will follow them that believe..." and then proceeded to almost repeat everything he said the His disciples, that He was lying?
Believer,
That wasn't the question. Check out my post from 9:35 pm.
Prophet,
That is the real question: isnt it? We know that Judas was not ultimately saved . . . but was he at some point? How could the Holy Spirit utilize him in such a way without his cooperation/surrendering? Was he in a saving relationship with God at some point?
prophet, if I want a close intimate relationship with God it requires me to confess all known sin to Him, but if I don't or if I'm not aware I have unconfessed sin it does not change my standing in Him through Christ, I'm still His child. And the same is true with others if I desire to have closeness and intimacy with them it will require me to seek their forgiveness when I sin against them. However, what's different is they might choose to not forgive me and hold it against me and totally end our relationship, but they have a sin nature and God does not.
Believer,
It is really difficult to say with absolute certainty who did or who did not lose their salvation but I tend to think that Saul was not saved just like Judas. Saul repeatedly disobeyed the Lord and in my previous post I quoted the scripture that said, (the spirit of the Lord departed from Saul). Also, we know that he sought a familiar spirit and died as a result of this transgression:
And Saul disguised himself, and put on other raiment, and he went, and two men with him, and they came to the woman by night: and he said, I pray thee, divine unto me by the familiar spirit, and bring me him up, whom I shall name unto thee (1 Samuel 28:7).
So Saul died for his transgression which he committed against the LORD, even against the word of the LORD, which he kept not, and also for asking counsel of one that had a familiar spirit, to enquire of it (1 Chronicles 10:13).
As for the others that you mentioned, there is evidence that they showed signs of repentance . . . I do not see that in Sauls case. I could be wrong . . . God who is the righteous judge will take all things into account and judge accordingly.
Believer,
No answer?
online, but at the same time just because Saul for lack of a better term backslid does not necessarily mean he lost his salvation. Once again this is where the verses in Corinthians come into play with regards to our works being judged at the judgement seat of Christ, even though all our works are burnt up we still have our salvation to hold on to and that alone is sufficient to save us. Plus consider some examples of people who did great things for God and then blew it, Samson, Gideon, Solomon and then those who blew it along the way, David, Abraham, Peter. So once again we must ask the question, if a person can lose their salvation what does it take and can they ever get it back and according to Hebrews 6:4-6 if one can lose their salvation then these verses clearly teach there is no going back.
If Judas wasn't saved, then by who's authority did he cast out devils. The point has already been made that Jesus gave all twelve (which included Judas) the power to cast out spirits. Why would Jesus give an unsaved person that power?
online, I don't believe Judas was ever saved. As for Balaam and Saul I'm not sure we can know with any certainty if they truly were believers. As for the Holy Ghost question I find no Old Testament passages that teach anyone was permanently indwelt by the Holy Spirit as we read in the New Testament, but I do agree that both David and Daniel had a continual presence of the Holy Spirit in their life.
prophet, all sin is sin against God so all sin effects our relationship with God and requires us to seek His forgiveness in order to once again grow closer to God.
Believer,
Lol . . . I understand your point, however, that does not give an exhaustive explanation about what happened in the lives of these individuals. So, are you saying that they never were true believers at any point . . . or were they at one time but then fell away? I know you mentioned earlier that you do not believe that God creates some in order to send them to hell . . . so how do you reconcile that with the previous examples given?
(Plus in the Old Testament the Holy Spirit did not take up permanent residence in a person's life.)
I dont know about that . . . what about Daniel? It was repeatedly said of him: (in whom is the spirit of the holy gods); see Daniel 4:8, 9, 18; 5:11, 14. Also, David prayed (take not thy holy spirit from me) Psalm 51:11 and getting back to Saul . . . this passages clearly says, (the spirit of the Lord departed from Saul) 1 Samuel 16:14. In regard to Saul, before the Holy Spirit departed from Saul . . . was he a true believer? How then does one explain the fact that some men found favour with God in the Old Testament, when they were unregenerate?
I believe that the Holy Spirit had been operating in the Old Testament but did not operate in his fullness until Jesus was glorified.
When we are saved, God forgives us for all the sins we have committed before we got saved. After that, we still need to ask for forgiveness whenever we transgress against God or man.
You just said we need to confess our sins to God. Both sins against man, and sin against Him. Correct?
prophet, you're absolutely right but this is where relational/parental forgiveness comes in play as opposed to legal/judicial forgiveness which allows us to be saved and become a child of God. If we want a close intimate relationship with God or anyone we must be ready and willing to both forgive and ask for forgiveness when we sin against God and anyone else.
Forgiveness is only as good as asking for forgiveness. If you don't ask for forgiveness, then there is no repentance or regret for the sins you have committed.
prophet, my apology it was chapter 2, plus how else can one interpret that, did Christ not die for the forgiveness of all sins?
Well, that is a very liberal view of it I guess. I would consider "all" to mean the sins that you have commited as a non-believer.
And did you give the wrong reference for the scripture you just quoted? I looked up Colossians 3 and it didn't say anything like that.
prophet, going along with the study I have been doing on this can you see where this passage I shared talks in legal or judicial terms as opposed to relational or parental terms?
prophet, Colossians 3:13-14, "When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all of our transgressions, having cancelled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross." Please note all of our transgressions/sins.
online, if we're to be the light of the world and the salt of the earth we must be totally surrendered to the Lordship of Christ, the control of the Holy Spirit and God's plans and purposes if we are to effectively be that light and salt, but at the same time we will fall short in those areas at time and even backslide, early on in my walk with the Lord I was really messing it up, one week living for the Lord, one week living for me. Some Christians ask me if I was sure I was saved during that time and I said you bet I was because I was the most miserable person in the world, no peace or joy or contentment. But that all changed dramatically when I finally got it when it came to allowing Christ to be the Lord of my life. If a person is truly a child of God and they backslide God tells us in Hebrews that because we are His child and because He loves us He will discipline us and if we profess to be a Christian and are in a backslidden condition and it doesn't bother us and in fact we're okay with it, that is a very good indicator that we are not a child of God and in fact never were.
online, not trying to be a wiseguy here but God also spoke through Balaam's donkey and He used a large fish to bring Jonah to the shore, so we can't assume that one has to be God's to be used of God. And in fact I've heard testimonies of people who were in the ministry actively serving God and in some cases preaching the Word who came to realize that they were not saved and in fact one I know was convicted of this through the very message God gave him to preach. Plus in the Old Testament the Holy Spirit did not take up permanent residence in a person's life. Plus, Matthew 7:22-23, "Many will say to Me on that day, "Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?" "And then I will declare to them, "I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS." Caps were part of the NASB I used not mine.
That is interesting that Judas was given power over devils...if he wasn't one of Jesus'. And the fact that Judas fell.
There are constant reminders for us to die daily (Luke 9:23; 1Corinthians 15:310); press toward the mark (Philippians 3:14) endure to the end (Matthew 24:13) and to be led of the spirit (Romans 8:14): So, the question is, can a believer choose not to do these things? What about backsliding? I guess what I am saying is; these are all acts of faith and of the will . . . the same mind that can choose to believe can also choose to disbelieve and can ultimately lead to spiritual death. We are also told:
And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption (Ephesians 4:30)
Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness (Hebrews 3:8).
Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him. But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul (Hebrews 10:38, 39).
By Gods grace we must all continue to walk by faith (which also requires a surrendering to the Holy Spirit) and endure to the end; so, how do we balance these two views of eternal security and a believers responsibility to walk by faith?
Believer,
The blasphemy of the Holy Spirit (Matthew 12:31) seems to be the ascribing of those miracles which Jesus did by the power of the Holy Spirit to the power of the devil. Rejecting salvation also results in one losing out on eternal life.
Eternal security: this is something that many people wrestle with . . . it is true that no man (external influences) is able to pluck them (true believers) out of the Fathers hand (John 10:29) but there appears to be some examples in the scriptures where certain individuals who had a relationship with God but then fell away. Here are a few examples:
Balaam:
And Balaam answered and said unto the servants of Balak, If Balak would give me his house full of silver and gold, I cannot go beyond the word of the LORD my God, to do less or more (Numbers 22:18).
King Saul:
And when they came thither to the hill, behold, a company of prophets met him; and the Spirit of God came upon him, and he prophesied among them. And it came to pass, when all that knew him beforetime saw that, behold, he prophesied among the prophets, then the people said one to another, What is this that is come unto the son of Kish? Is Saul also among the prophets? And one of the same place answered and said, But who is their father? Therefore it became a proverb, Is Saul also among the prophets? (1 Samuel 10:10-12).
Judas:
And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease (Matthew 10:1).
It appears that these individuals had at one time been connected to and used of the Lord . . . what happened?
believer,
"When a person comes to Christ their sins are forgiven past, present, and future"
Scriptural reference please..
star2, I John 5:11-12, "And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life."
star2, I'll stop when the Bible stops saying we receive eternal life the moment we are saved.
prophet, this is something I've been studying for several years because it appeared there was a contradiction in this area. When a person comes to Christ their sins are forgiven past, present, and future and yet we're told in passages such as I John 1:9 that we're to confess our sins, well if all my sins were forgiven when I got saved then why do I need to confess them, so either there is a contradiction here or I'm missing something and God validated the latter when He took me to the parable of the Prodigal Son and that's where He showed me there are two types of forgiveness taught in His Word, legal/judicial forgiveness and parental/relational forgiveness. The first we received when we we're saved and became a child of God, it is permanent and a one time event. It is the forgivenenss that saved us and gives us the right to become a child of God. The second is clearly taught in this parable when the son comes to his senses and realizes he has blown it big time and is no longer worthy to be considered his father's son and he was 100% correct, but like our heavenly Father from his father's perspective he was totally wrong because his father never stopped seeing him as his son, but at the same time because of his sinful choices the closeness and intimacy the son could have had with his father was wasted on sinful living as is true when we choose as a child of God to disobey our heavenly Father each time we sin and as a result we like the prodigal son miss out on the closeness and intimacy we could have had with Him and we also cannot be effectively used of God in joining Him in fulfilling His Great Commission. But at the same time like the prodigal's father our heavenly Father never stops seeing us as His child, a wayward or prodigal child, but a child of His none the less.
believer
>>>star2, as I said no true believer dies with unforgiven sin in their life, unconfessed yes, but not unforgiven. Since when Christ died for our sins He died once for all sin, past, present, and future and when a person has a true genuine conversion experience all their sins are forgiven past, present, and future and they possess eternal life at the moment they are saved.<<<
Your comments prove that you don't hear a word I say. Why? Is it because I am a female? Pentecostal? Because you think I am wrong and you don't really read what I write? Did I step on your toes and you hold it against me? Or for some other reason?
When are you going to stop making the bible say what it doesn't say by using the explanation that the Word of God must have been referring to non-believers when it says under what conditions a believer will not inherit eternal life?
You do it in other things too. You'll reject the clear evidence that water baptism is done only in Jesus name for the traditions of the Church that it is done in all three persons of the Godhead. Why not accept what God's Word says and ask Him what did Jesus mean by saying that we are to baptize believers in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost? It is obvious that it is not referring to water baptism since the book of Acts clearly indicates that water baptism is done in the name of Jesus only. The Apostle Peter was inspired by God to say that. He wasn't speaking in the flesh you know.
Why not take God at His word instead and ask Him why it is so?
Sometimes I wish God would shatter your belief in what the bible scholars you read think and cause you to seek Him instead of them for understanding the Word of God.
I am obviously frustrated with you and others who think like you. I am sure you are frustrated with me too.
forgiven, as a preacher friend said when a person let's others know they are a Christian from that point on they are a testimony for the Lord, the only thing they need to decide is will they be a good one or a bad one.
star2, although a surrendered Christian is God's desire for all Christians one does not have to be a surrendered Christian to be saved. We must remember that unlike salvation, surrender is not a one time decision, but a daily, moment by moment, choice by choice decision so that even if a Christian deliberately surrenders to the Lordship of Christ, the control of the Holy Spirit, and God's plans and purposes there is no guarantee they will always do the right thing and as a matter of fact I don't know of any Christian who hasn't blown it in the area of surrender. And that is why I don't believe this can be used as a reason a truly born-again believer can lose their salvation. And once again if it is possible for a Christian to lose their salvation it is God's call and not theirs, God alone can save them and God alone can take His salvation from them.
believer wrote: "the way satan can devour a true believer is to make them useless for the cause of Christ"
Humm, an interesting take.
Also: "even better if he can make them a bad testimony for the cause of Christ."
This almost seems oxymoronic ~ bad chritian. No disrespect ~ more of a quirky funny.
believer,
"prophet, that speaks to relational forgiveness,"
I see nowhere in that scripture to support that theory. Could you expound?
DelightntheLord
Go to the following link to read Pastor Ekechukwu's testimony of what happened to him when he died with unforgivenss in his heart.
http://bibleprobe.com/ekechukwu.htm
forgiven, what I tell individuals and congregations is this, once a person comes to Christ satan knows that he has lost that person to Christ so his next step is since he can't have you he'll do all he can to put your light under a bushel and cause you to lose your saltiness, the way satan can devour a true believer is to make them useless for the cause of Christ and even better if he can make them a bad testimony for the cause of Christ.
star2, as I said no true believer dies with unforgiven sin in their life, unconfessed yes, but not unforgiven. Since when Christ died for our sins He died once for all sin, past, present, and future and when a person has a true genuine conversion experience all their sins are forgiven past, present, and future and they possess eternal life at the moment they are saved.
Hi believer,
First, I am by no means on the same level as you, and I appreciate you including me in the hearty discussions!
As a preacher, then, what do you advise those you lead about the passage of the devil seeking someone to devour?
I said God will deal with a believer about any sin issues that He hold against them. For one it might be unforgiveness. For another it might be not having lived for God (Jesus was not Lord of their life). Another it might have been adultery. Another drunkedness. For some, a combination of sin issues. God know what it is for every believer and He knows what it will take to clear up the relationship between Him and the believer before he dies. When God deals with thiose issues and the believer agrees with God and ask for forgiveness whatever is required to deal with the sin issue then God will forgive and cleanse the believer of all righteousness. When the believer dies he dies sinless.
If you really believe that a person will inherit eternal life with unforgiven sin in their life, well...you have no understanding of the gospel and why it was even necessary.
believer
>>>forgiven, but as both a Pastor and Christian leader if indeed a truly born again believer can lose their salvation I need to know specifically how that can happen so I can warn believers of that possibility and I don't need well it could be this or it could be that.<<<
Then I suggest believer that you contiue to do what you appear to have recently begun to do and that is to seek God about whether a believer can lose their salvation or not. Look to God for the answer and not man.
>>>But two realities, if God alone can save us then God alone can take away our salvation and if God is able to save us then He is able to keep us as well.<<<
Salvation is a two way contract. God will do His part. You can take that to the bank. But man has to do his part; ie, surrender. God will not force his will on anyone.
DelightntheLord
>>>In the case of someone dying in the flash of a moment, like an auto accident; didn't see it coming...what then, he loses his salvation over one unconfessed sin?<<<
Sometimes God deals with a believer before he dies and allow him/her to get right in the area of his life that is not right with God. I read several stories regarding this very thing. The testimonies that I read involved the need for the believer to make Jesus Lord of their life.
Other believers, two that I have read about, actually died, were not right with God, and actually was on their way to hell or were already in hell. One was a woman, a believer, who had drank. When she died in an auto accident she said why am I going to hell, I am a Christian? God spoke to hert and said "No drunkard shall inherit the kingdom of God." She repented and God allowed her to be brought back to life. Another was a Pastor in Africa. He had had a fight with his wife one morning and held unforgiveness towards her. He was involved in an automobile accident and died. He went to hell and knew he was there because of his unforgiveness towards his wife. Jesus said that if you don't forgive those who do you wrong God will not forgive you. Anyway, God allowed him to repent. He was dead several days. He was brought back to life in a Bonhardt Bonnke revival meeting held in Africa.
star2, but in essence that is what you said, you said that if a Christian dies with unforgiven sin in their life they will lose their salvation. And you went on to say that before a Christian dies God will bring to mind any unforgiven sin(s) they have in order to give them the opportunity to confess those sins so they won't lose their salvation.
prophet, that speaks to relational forgiveness, the consequence of unconfessed sin in the life of a believer is that God will not hear our prayers and our intimacy and closeness to God is hindered as well as our usefulness and ability to be used of God is limited at best, but our standing in God through Christ remains the same, we are still a child of God, a prodigal or wayward child perhaps, but still a child of God.
forgiven, but as both a Pastor and Christian leader if indeed a truly born again believer can lose their salvation I need to know specifically how that can happen so I can warn believers of that possibility and I don't need well it could be this or it could be that. But two realities, if God alone can save us then God alone can take away our salvation and if God is able to save us then He is able to keep us as well.
DelightntheLord
>>>Are you proposing the idea that our salvation is based on our ability to confess our sin?<<<
That is not what I said. If you will read the following posts you will see that.
Thu Jan01,2009 6:37pm (Parts A & B)
Thu Jan 01, 2009 11:57pm
Fri Jan 02, 2009 11:59 (Three parts)
I John 1:9 says "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."
So if we don't need to confess our sins, then why say that?
Hey Delight,
The discussion started with whether a Christian has eternal security or can lose their salvation? Can a Christian turn their back on God and lose their salvation? Or where they not a Christian to begin with?
"So no true believer dies with unforgiven sin in their life, unconfessed sin yes but not unforgiven sin."
I agree with Believer here, it is a good distinction to point out between forgiven vs unconfessed sin. I think a true believer would want to keep short accounts with God and confess his sin regularly, but I don't think we lose our salvation if we neglect to confess ALL our sins before we die. Isn't this what God's Grace is all about?
Hello Star,
I'm trying to figure out your 7:37 am post;
"People who die with unforgiven sin in their life don't go to Heaven"
and "dying with unforgiven sin."
Are you proposing the idea that our salvation is based on our ability to confess our sin?
I thought Jesus died for all of our sin, past, present and future.
In the case of someone dying in the flash of a moment, like an auto accident; didn't see it coming...what then, he loses his salvation over one unconfessed sin?
Seems a bit stern and makes the nature of God a bit like luck; arbitrary and capricious...do you have a scripture you use to illuminate your idea?
So since Judas was never one of Jesus' to begin with, then Jesus was lying when He said He "kept (meaning they were His) all but one"
star2, God's Word says that Christ died once for the forgiveness of sin and when a person comes to Christ by repenting of their sin and turning to God through the person and finished work of His Son, Jesus Christ alone, they become a child of God, receive eternal life, their sins are forgiven, and the penalty of their sin has been paid for through the shed blood of Jesus Christ. So no true believer dies with unforgiven sin in their life, unconfessed sin yes but not unforgiven sin. So unless you can cite scriptures that says a true believer sins have not been forgiven from a judicial/legal perspective your view does not add up. Plus the Bible clearly teaches there are two types of forgiveness, there is judicial/legal forgiveness which was taken care of through the Cross of Christ and then there is relational/parental forgiveness which is a matter between a child of God and their heavenly Father which impacts their closeness and intimacy with God as well as their usefulness to God, but does not impact their standing in God through Christ.
online, there are some who say that blaspheming against the Holy Spirit is no longer possible because Jesus Christ is no longer physically present, I'm not sure on that one, but like wb I believe the only unpardonable sin is that of rejecting God's plan of salvation through Jesus Christ alone which some say is a form of blaspheming the Holy Spirit since it is the Holy Spirit who convicts us of our need to be saved. And yes, I believe in eternal security, but don't treat it as a license to willfully sin or live in sin and believe that those who profess to be Christians who do may very well not be genuinely saved.
it seems to me the only unpardonable sin is to deny Christ until you die.
believer
>>> Plus you have still not shared any biblical support for your belief that God will come to a believer before they die and let them know of any unforgiven sins they have in their life so they will have the opportunity to confess those sins and be forgiven before they die so they won't lose their salvation when they die. <<<
The Word of God says that it is not the Father's will that any that belong to Him should perish (John 6:39). It also says that once He has begun a good work in you, a believer, he will perform it until the day of the Lord Jesus (Phil 1:6).
People who die with unforgiven sin in their life don't go to Heaven.
If people who die with unforgiven sin in their life cannot go to heaven then don't you think that God would deal with a believer about those unforgiven sin(s) so that he can be forgiven for them and cleansed from his unrighteousness before he dies since it is not the Father's will that He lose the believer (perish)?
Is that not what God did with Gladys, a born-again believer, who had unforgivenes in her heart towards those who had done her wrong in the past (see Fri, Jan 02,2009 11:57am post) and the believer in my Church who committed adultery but repented on his death bed (see Fri, Jan 02,2009, 11:58am post)?
believer
>>>star2, you say that a person loses their salvation when they die if they die with unforgiven sin in their life and prophet shared it would be a result of a person denying Christ and as a result of Hebrews 6 that person could never be saved again.<<<
There are different ways that a believer can lose their salvation. Prophet mentioned one way, denying Jesus. I mentioned another way, dying with unforgiven sin.
Prophet SEEMS to believe that any type of denial of Jesus results in a loss of salvation. I don't necessarily agree with him. Like you, I think it depends on the unknown thoughts of the heart that only God knows and can judge. I wrote of this in my Thurs Jan 01,2009 11:57 pm post.
My Sat Jan 03,2009 2:16am post and Sun Jan 04,2009 1:03am post on Rev 2:8-11 discusses a situation where a believer can lose their salvation by denying Jesus.
Prophet,
Thanks for the info . . . I did not want to assume too much since he clarified some of his beliefs on this subject earlier.
Believer,
Thanks for engaging in this discussion . . . I do not want to make this discussion a divisive one but am I assuming to much when I say, that you believe in the (once saved always saved) position and that you do not believe in the unpardonable sin?
Believer,
Old J. Vernon McGee; love his country accent. Yeah, these subjects are mind jarring requiring quite a bit of research, reflection and prayer.
Online,
I think what believer is saying is that there is no unpardonable sin.
star2, you say that a person loses their salvation when they die if they die with unforgiven sin in their life and prophet shared it would be a result of a person denying Christ and as a result of Hebrews 6 that person could never be saved again. Plus you have still not shared any biblical support for your belief that God will come to a believer before they die and let them know of any unforgiven sins they have in their life so they will have the opportunity to confess those sins and be forgiven before they die so they won't lose their salvation when they die.
believer
>>> Plus, I continue to get conflicting messages from those who say we can lose our salvation to include posters on this site.<<<
Examples please.
online, I tend to go along with the hypothetical idea or that it is speaking to Christian commitment and service and not salvation.
online, J. Vernon McGee pretty much went along with the Bible Knowledge Commentary although he gave credit to a former professor at Dallas Theological Seminary which of course is where the writers of this commentary taught.
believer,
So, are you saying that a person can or cannot be saved in this state of apostasy? It seems that these verses are speaking of the unpardonable sin (a total rejection of Christ) . . . if this is the case, then they cannot be saved . . . right?
Forgivensinner,
You are welcome . . . glad to help.
online, the Bible Knowledge Commentary had a lot to say as well but summed it up this way, "the authors words suggested a deep hardening of their hearts against all efforts to win them back, not to Christian conversion, but to Christian commitment." Plus they state it doesn't refer to loss of eternal life because as they say this is an inalienable possession of those who trust Christ for it.
online, quite a dilemma we have with these verses, plus another interpretation is that these verses talk to the idea of if it were possible as opposed to it is possible to lose one's salvation there is no possibility of that person being saved again. And I even read another commentary that said this means they can't repent because they have already repented, but I don't buy that one because there are scriptures that teach that even as a Christian when we sin we are to repent. And as I said earlier many Armenians avoid these verses completely.
Thank you, Online.
(The apostle is not speaking of the falling away of mere professors, never convinced or influenced by the gospel. Such have nothing to fall from, but an empty name, or hypocritical profession. Neither is he speaking of partial declining or backsliding. Nor are such sins meant, as Christians fall into through the strength of temptations, or the power of some worldly or fleshly lust. But the falling away here mentioned, is an open and avowed renouncing of Christ . . .)
Matthew Henry
(These persons, too, have been partakers of the Holy Ghost; if that fail what more can we give them? If, my hearer, the Holy Ghost dwells in your soul, and that Holy Ghost does not sanctify you and keep you to the end, what else can be tried . . . if these people have fallen away after receiving that, how can they be saved?)
Charles H. Spurgeon
So, with all this, I would have to subscribe to the 1st view: that these verses are speaking of the unpardonable sin; a total apostasy from which there is no help except through a miracle of God.
Believer,
Hebrews 6:4-6 was an interesting study; I read the entire chapter along with several commentaries at my disposal. Question: do you believe these verses deal with the topic of eternal security? The question at issue seems to be about the possibility of restoring someone who had a real Christian experience but fell away. From what I researched there are a couple of views on these verses: 1) the apostasy here spoken of is the unpardonable sin (see Matthew 12:31, 32), since this is the only form of apostasy that is hopeless. 2) That the passage does not teach the absolute hopelessness of the apostasy here described but a conditional hopelessness.
Here is what I read in the commentaries:
(They freely forsake their professed Christian state, and make shipwreck of all; the offended, wronged Spirit withdraws, and will not assist or elevate theirs to act above nature again; but leaves them justly to themselves. . .)
Matthew Poole
(The process intimated is that of complete apostasy from the faith after real conscious enjoyment of the gifts of grace. In such a case the hopelessness of the fall is in proportion to the privileges once enjoyed)
The Pulpit Commentary
(Here a total apostasy is meant. The impossibility rests in their having known in themselves once the power of Christs sacrifice, yet now rejecting it: there cannot possibly be new means for their renewal afresh: the means provided by Gods love they now, after experience of them, deliberately and continuously reject: their conscience being seared, twice dead: Jude 12)
Jamieson Fausset Brown Bible Commentary
(Of these willful total apostates he declares, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, (though they were renewed once,) either to the foundation, or anything built thereon. Seeing they crucify the Son of God afresh: They use him with the utmost indignity. And put him to an open shame: Causing his glorious name to be blasphemed)
John Wesley
Humm, I'll buy that.
That is so true. So Jesus really didn't "lose one" because Judas was never one of His to begin with.
forgiven, John 12:4-6 says, "But Judas Iscariot, one of His disciples who was intending to betray Him said, "Why was this perfume not sold for three hundred denari and given to the poor people?" Now he said this, not because he was concerned about the poor, but because he was a thief, and as he had the money box, he used to pilfer what was put into it." It appears that Judas was never saved the whole time he was with Christ.
forgiven, John 6:70-71, "Jesus answered them, "Did I Myself not choose you, the twelve, and yet one of you is a devil?" "Now He meant Judas the son of Simon Iscariot, for he, one of the twelve, was going to betray Him."
forgiven, just because he was one of the 12 doesn't mean he was saved? And in fact many Christian scholars do not believe he was.
believer wrote: "prophet, are you saying you believe Judas was saved? Just about everything written about him even prior to his selling out Christ shows just the opposite"
Judas was counted with the 12? Are you referring to his behaviors and actions?
prophet, are you saying you believe Judas was saved? Just about everything written about him even prior to his selling out Christ shows just the opposite. Plus, if that's the case wouldn't Peter have lost his salvation when he denied Christ?
John 15;10 "If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love."
So if we don't keep His commandments, we do not abide in His love?
We also see in John 17:11-12 " 11And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
12While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled."
Jesus is praying that God would keep them. Why would He do that if He knew that they couldn't fall? And we also see that one was lost...meaning Judas was His, but then fell.
I just love the dialogues that occur throughout CP; does a growing Christian good!
online, Hebrews 6:4-6
jester, been thinking about our discussion and praying about it and felt led to share this. I can't say with 100% certainty that eternal security is true nor can I say with 100% certainty that one can lose their salvation, but I've come to believe that if one cannot earn their salvation then one cannot earn the right to keep it and to lose it one would have to do just the opposite of what they did to be saved, to deliberately reject the person and finished work of Jesus Christ from their life, to say to God I could careless that You sent Your Son to die for my sins and I now choose to reject Jesus Christ from my life and it has to be done formally not insinuated so there is no doubt that is exactly what that person did, but like salvation in which only God can save us it is God alone who can take away our salvation. So even if a person does that it is God who will determine if they are still saved or not. The problem is I find no biblical support to say God will do that or that it is possible for a child of God to do that. And even Peter after he denied Christ three times in the presence of Christ still went on to do great things for God. And yet Hebrews 6 says if we indeed can lose our salvation there is no going back and whoever does that is hopelessly lost and destined for hell and yet Peter I'm sure went on to heaven when he died. Plus, I continue to get conflicting messages from those who say we can lose our salvation to include posters on this site. As I said this is a very difficult and can be a very divisive issue. But please know I bear no animosity toward you personally or anyone in this debate and I hope the same is true of you. Plus, I do so much appreciate your puns and humor most of the time, be blessed as you continue to serve Him, believer
believer,
I too have not planted my feet on every issue that has been discussed here . . . that is why I used the words (appears) and (seems). I am one of those Calvinist-Arminian hybrids; so, I do not want to be dogmatic on any point and close the door to further learning.
(While I was in college I heard a preacher who was in a class with me say this, God has predestined a plan by which any one can be saved, but to be saved one must accept God's plan alone to be saved.)
Amen; this is where I too find myself in regards to Gods plan of salvation. Hebrews 6: I would like to research this a bit more; which verses are you referring to?
online, excellent post on a very difficult issue that can be very divisive if we're not careful. As I've studied this more, one thing I found that was interesting is that those who claim to be Armenians have a very difficult time with the passage from Hebrews 6 and tend to avoid even dealing with it. As I told wb and others I'm a four and a half point Calvinist because I simply can't bring myself to believe God would willfully create someone to send them to hell, so I tend to lean, as most if not all Calvinists I know do, to the foreknowledge + predestination view which says God knows who will and who won't be saved and predestines a plan to ensure each of those who will have that opportunity, but as I said I only lean to this view and by no means plant my feet in concrete on this view either. While I was in college I heard a preacher who was in a class with me say this, God has predestined a plan by which any one can be saved, but to be saved one must accept God's plan alone to be saved.
Daniel Paul said, (Here's a thought to twist some brains....)
What if Sovereignty and free will are 2 sides of the same coin and you don't have one without the other? Would God stop being Sovereign if we have free will? Would God need to be sovereign if we didn't?
Interesting thought; I believe it is fair to say that not all Calvinists agree with every point of Calvinism and not all Arminians agree with every point of Arminianism. There seems to be many Calvinist-Arminian hybrids that see no problem with God being sovereign and also allowing humanity to have free will. I am not a Calvinist; however, I do not agree with the superficial, seeker sensitive theology that dominates many of the Arminian churches today. These churches do not resemble the historic Christian faith that we read about in the New Testament but rather bears resemblance to humanism.
At the same time, it is asserted by Calvinists that they base their views on scripture while Arminians make their case primarily from reason and philosophy. The reality is that Calvinists no less than Arminians rely on controversial philosophical judgments and assumptions. For instance, on the issue of the sovereignty of God; they teach a restricting of Gods saving intentions to a subset of humanity. The real issue is the character of God; specifically, his love. How wide is Gods saving intentions? Scripture says, (God so loved the world) John 3:16; Christs atoning sacrifice was not just for us (but also for the sins of the whole world) 1John 2:2; Paul concludes (all) in unbelief but also says that God might have mercy upon (all) Romans 11:32; similarly, he says, judgment came upon (all) men. . . so the gift came upon (all) Romans 5:18; and we read that Christ gave himself a ransom for (all) 1Timothy 2:5-6.
So there appears to be a dilemma here; is salvation intended for all or just the for the elect? If we are to understand Gods true intentions from his words then we should believe that God loves everyone and that his saving grace is intended for everyone but most reject his tender invitation. There are many instances in scripture where many have resisted and rejected Gods saving grace . . . I do not think many would dispute this fact. Jesus gives us a picture of himself knocking at the door of our hearts in Revelation 3:20; he does not kick the door in but waits for us to open the door (seems to be our choice).
jester, I know you're married but I don't know if you have any children, but I have a son and there is nothing that I can think of that he could do that would ever cause me to no longer consider him my son. Matthew 7:9-11, "Or what man is there among you, when his son asks for a loaf, will give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, he will not give him a snake will he? If you then being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give what is good to those who ask Him!" There may be something my son could do that would lead me to disown him and no longer consider him my son and I hope and pray that if that should happen that God would give me the same ability He has in that no matter what I do He will never disown me as a child of His regardless of what I think or want. God loves us with an unconditional love and paid an awesome price for our salvation in order for us to become a child of His and do you really think He's just going to stand by and watch us walk away. This isn't a free-will versus God's sovereignty issue, this is all about a heavenly Father who loved us enough to give His very best in order that we could be saved and as I said earlier if God is able to save us He is also able to keep us.
believer,
and we have no free will. that's always good to know.
believer,
yes. i submit. you know best. i'll throw away half the bible to accomodate you, but you'll be right.
dp, is that the joke? or is there a punch line. it was pretty funny as it stands but i didnt know if there was more.
Do you know how to straighten out those teachings from cat-achism?
You run them through the catacombs....
Did you hear about the Mass confusion created when a flock of birds flew in during a Catholic church service?
(Yes, you Catholics can tell that to your priest. He might use it one Sunday....)
jester, he still would have been his father's son!
well, you do know that to become a catlick you have to go through cat-achism.
LOL!
(groan)....here we go again!
Sometimes it gives me a hair ball. Like claws on a blackboard....
well sometimes it can grate on certain people
jester, you really do have a purr-fect sense of humor don't you?
don't forget, y'all! when jesus come back we're all gonna be catlicks! it's right there in the bible! II Pope Opinion chapter 3 verse 3796 (KJV). so be nice to them
wbmoore,
"jester, but he DID come back"
but what if he DIDN'T?
a doctrine is nothing more than a belief - sometimes the RCC even back it up with scripture, but not always. Yes, the RCC has a written set of doctrinal beliefs, but speak to three catholics, and you get at least three different views. I've heard some speak passionately concerning birth control, and others just nod and do what they want. I've seen different catholics with different views on Mary as well. Some hold to the Bible and others put the church on equal or higher footing.
Tallguy-
Yes it is a cute little discussion...
Yes it is a cute little discussion...
WB-
"As for catholicism, even catholics do not all agree on all doctrine, regardless of what the pope teaches or some wish to believe."
Ok, like what? I'm pretty sure you're wrong... Are we talking about DOCTRINE or BELIEFS? The RCC has a SET rules of DOCTRINE and a STATED list of BELIEFS... Immaculate Conception is a doctrine, abortion's incorrectness is a belief... Catholics agree with doctrine but decide on beliefs... And I can guarantee you that the majority of Catholics DO agree with Church Doctrine... I mean maybe some extremely liberal and radical Catholics don't, but I can guarantee you they are far and few between. Pope John Paul said "We didn't change for Protestants and we won't change for Catholics either." I have to say that that is very well said. If Catholics are trying to change church BELIEFS that is fine, but if they are trying to reverse doctrine they are wasting their time. Doctrine is the OFFICIAL TEACHING OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH, issued by the Magisterium with the Pope and Cardinals' guidance. 'Tain't gonna change.
cute little discussion....
cute little discussion....
jester, plus Corinthians speaks to the fact that even if all our works as a Christian are burnt up we at least have our salvation which is founded in the person and work of Christ that will still allow us to enter heaven.
jester, and even if he didn't come back, he still would have been his father's son, but you are correct he would have missed out of the benefits but more importantly the close and intimate relationship he could have had with his father. And this is exactly what a wayward child of God misses out on when and if they turn their back on God, but they never stop being a child of God.
jester, but he DID come back.
believer,
i wonder if that prodigal son would have benefited from his father's goodness if he hadn't come back? no he would not have. he never would have received any of that stuff the father had for him...no matter how much the father loved him.
star,
"If Jesus, who had the fullness of the Godhead bodily, had to make choices to do what was right then why would any Christian think we don't?"
because apparently we don't have the choice on whether we want to change our mind after we get saved. we don't have free will to deny christ. so we apparently don't have the choice in whether we get saved to begin with.
wb, I have come to believe that as well, that in overcoming we show that we are saved as opposed to not overcoming which shows one was not saved in the first place. It's as if the passages in Revelation to the church in Smyrna and other places were more of a pep talk as opposed to a warning. Stick with it, you're going to make it, it will get tough, it may even cost you your physical life, but it will be worth it, maybe not in this age, but more importantly for all eternity in glory with Me!
jester, since I don't know those people I can't say if they were ever saved or not, but that is always a possibility. And as a matter of fact I spoke to that a the post I sent to prophet about what happens when even a believer gets angry with God and how we say and do things toward others to include God that we regret down the road. The prodigal son although not angry did that very thing when he came to his senses, but throughout that whole time he never stopped being his father's son even though he knew his father had every right to disown him. But that was not the son's call to make but his father's and the same is true with us, if it were possible for one to lose their salvation which I don't believe it is, it would be God's decision to take it from us and not ours.
Yes wbmoore God will do His part. We can take that to the bank. However, we have to do our part by surrendering. Surrendering come by an act of the person's will. You are not a puppet. You can, as a truly born-again believer, choose to not surrender even if you have the grace to surrender. Stubborn Christians who are truly born-again often refuse to do God's will even though they have the grace to do so because they are trying to control God.
jester in the Kings court
Jesus had a free will. When tempted in all points like us humans He always chose to do what was right. This rendered Him sinless. (Heb 4:14, Is 7:15)
If Jesus, who had the fullness of the Godhead bodily, had to make choices to do what was right then why would any Christian think we don't?
Star2, It seems you and I agree that a lost person can have appearance of a saved person. It seems in this matter we are in agreement on most points - the only disagreement seems to be whether one was saved to begin with is able to lose his salvation. Ultimately, the result is the same, a person who is not saved suffers the second death.
I agree that Jesus said if they overcame, they would not suffer the second death. Does this not describe the condition of a true believer? It does not describe their condition before this point where they have to overcome. I submit if they did not overcome then they were not saved to begin with, not that they lost their salvation.
To me, the difference is your view of God's sovereignty. Does God fulfill His plan? Does God do what HE said He will do? Is God faithful to complete the good work He began in you?
I think the answer is yes.
you know that we have no choice in whether we're saved. those who are to be saved are already chosen.
i still like the idea that we don't have the ability to choose what we want to do.
wbmoore
Revelation 2:8-11 (King James Version)
8 And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;
9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.
10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.
11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.
My understanding is that you believe that the Church of Smyrna consisted of those who were tuly born-again and those who were not and that vs 11 really applies to the lost and not to the truly born-again because truly saved people cannot lose their salvation.
I disagree with you.
A lost person doesn't belong to Jesus. If he dies he will perish. It doesn't matter whether he served God, fasted, tithed, prayed to God, was a good moral person, or any other good works. If he refuses to deny Jesus and dies because of it, he will still perish because he wasn't even saved to begin with.
In verse 11 Jesus is saying to the members of the Church of Smyrna that if you don't overcome you will be hurt by the second death. The Greek word translated as 'overcometh' is 'nike' which means to subdue. 'Subdue' means to bring under control. What does the person need to bring under control when threatened with the lost of his life if he doesn't deny Jesus? He needs to resist the temptation to deny Jesus in order to keep from being killed.
Jesus experienced the same temptations as we do but He was without sin because He didn't yield to it (Heb 4:14). Not yielding came by His choice, an act of His will to choose to do what was right instead of doing what was evil (Is 7:15).
If Jesus was tempted by what humans are tempted with then so will truly born-again believers.
It is human nature to want to save your life when threatened with the loss of it. God does not remove the desire to save your life when threatened with the loss of it. A Christian has to make a decision. Will he submit to his desire to live and deny Jesus in order to do so or will he say "No" to his desire and remain faithful to Jesus and lose his life because of it?
In verse 11 Jesus said that if they overcame (resist the desire to deny Jesus in order to live) they would not be hurt by the second death. Since lost people will perish anyway then He has to be addressing this consequence of denying Him (eternal damnation) to those who are truly born-again.
As for catholicism, even catholics do not all agree on all doctrine, regardless of what the pope teaches or some wish to believe.
Just because someone has made a profession of faith and been active in ministry does not mean they had a true salvation experience. The love for God must be real and lasting to be true love, as must the evidence of that love - don't measure scripture by experience, but measure experience from scripture.
jester,
Philippians 1:6
6 being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.
So God will NOT complete the work HE began in you?
Romans 8:28-30
28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him,[a] who have been called according to his purpose. 29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.
So GOD will not glorify those He has called?
Star2, as I've said, any understanding of Scripture must include an explanation for all verses concerning that topic. How do you explain the two passages I've mentioned in this post?
believer,
but from what proph is saying, your little fantasy doesn't include those who have had a true salvation exprerience, served the lord and loved him with all their heart, and then fell into sin and continued down that road. you're only excuse is "they must not have been a true christian". it never occurs to you that a person can change his mind.
jester, my apology for all the "in facts", believer
jester, if God is truly our heavenly Father will He not relate to us as a parent to a child and in fact doesn't God's Word also say that if earthly fathers know how to care for their children won't our heavenly Father know even better and wouldn't that include how He responds to us when we mess up. And in fact doesn't He say in Hebrews that He chastises His child and if He doesn't chastise a wayward sinner that's because that sinner is not truly His child. Now if you choose to interpret that as losing your free will that's your choice as for me I call it God truly being my heavenly Father.
jester, you know better than that, but I do question the salvation of a person who continues to blatantly sin or live in a sinful lifestyle and shows no remorse or shows no desire to quit and yet claims to be a Christian, because God's Word is pretty clear if a person truly loves Christ they will obey His commands. Not that any of us will be perfect since if that was the case there would be no need for I John 1:9. And as I've said from the beginning the issue of eternal security is one of the most debated issues in the Church along with balancing free will with God's sovereignty and vice versa.
makes me almost want to quit being a christian. if i had known that all my free will was gone after i got saved....
calvinism....soooooooo sneaky. we have no free will. and God imposes His will upon us. we have no choice!
JUST GIVE IN! RESISTANCE IS FUTILE! YOU WILL BE ASSIMILATED!
i'm free! i'm free! i think believer questions everyone's salvation who doesn't believe what he does.
I pray that Mr. Hitchens wake up and realize that there is a Heavenly Father that is looking over his life and all the life that has been nurturedon planet Earth. Man didn't evolve independently without astarting source. Man's characteristcs came from some source greater than himself. May God open his eyese to see and recognize this fact.
It amazes me that so many catholics believe that Peter was left in charge and while he was one of the leaders in the church, we're told that Paul put him in his place and when the council met in Jerusalem, James the half brother of Christ was in charge.
jester, I meant to respond to your post last night to say this, if a person has the idea that eternal security is permission to blatantly sin and live in sin, number one they do not truly understand eternal security and secondly I firmly believe they have never had a genuine conversion experience in the first place, at best they have bought a get out of hell free card or a fire insurance policy via the the cheap grace theology peddlers, but the problem is when they pull out that policy much to their shagrin they're going to find it stamped null and void. But I'll be honest your concern about that is a concern of mine as well, but as I told prophet, God is the only one who can save us and He is the only One who can keep us, if we can't earn our salvation there is nothing we can do to earn the right to keep it. Both salvation and eternal security are both God's call and responsibility. But once we become a child of God, like the prodigal son we may mess up royally, but like the prodigal's father, our heavenly Father never stops seeing us as His child, pig stink and all!
"bow before us! we are holy! we are God's chosen! all others are worthless! bow! BOW! worship us and our idols!"
didn't the pharisees say the same thing the pope and priest say today? "we are the keeper of the laws! we hold the truth! if you do not accept this then you are cast out and are nothing!"
"Pope" is not a God-ordained position. Neither is "priest". Jesus did away with the priesthood when He died on the cross. The Catholic priests are just a continuation of the Pharisetic (is that a word?) priesthood, both in errancy and bondage.
Tallguy1000
Do you believe those not of the Catholic Faith will have an Inheritance from God? Can they be saved?
John 14:16-18 "And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever-- the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you.
I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you."
John 14:26 "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you."
**With this promise from God what can man add to that? His fallability?
Tallguy1000,
(Exactly Online! That's exactly why Christ left one (1) person in charge! Simon - name change to Peter)
Not so. Whenever I hear someone claim that a single verse of Scripture (absolutely proves) a given theological position, well, it brings up a red flag for a number of reasons. First, this method of interpretation neglects the entire scope of Scripture as a whole. Second, the New Testament Church declares the Holy Spirit as Christs true representative:
But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you (John 14:26).
Next, the New Testament says absolutely nothing about a universal priest (pope) as Christs representative. Finally, Ephesians 4:10-12 says,
He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things. And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ.
Where is the mention of a pope?
(But I have prayed that your own faith may not fail; and once you have turned back, you must strengthen your brothers. Feed my sheep)
When this passage is read in its context, the meaning is abundantly clear. Jesus prayed that Peters faith would not fail . . . but in fact it did. He denied the Lord three times and so Jesus asked him; (do you love me) and what really grieved Peter was this three time repetition, because it was a plain reminder of his previous three time denial. Jesus here is merely restoring Peter to the ministry of the gospel.
(Admit it, the overall message of the Catholic Church is profound, unmatched by any other.)
I have heard the overall message of the Catholic Church and it does not resemble or even come close to the church that I read about in the New Testament.
Catholicism is just another division or denomination among many. Another "interpretation" of the Scriptures. Unfortunately, much of what the RCC teaches is anti-scriptural.
"That's exactly why Christ left one (1) person in charge! Simon "
An interesting statement. The Catholic church accepts the writings of Paul who even chewed Peter out in the Book of Acts, no? Paul wrote most of the New Testament. Not a very good example of leadership on the part of Peter to let someone who opposed him write most of the Epistles and still the Catholic church accepts most of them.
I find it interesting that just a few verses later Jesus says in Mat 16:23: "and he having turned, said to Peter, `Get thee behind me, adversary! thou art a stumbling-block to me, for thou dost not mind the things of God, but the things of men."
So Jesus calls Peter a stumbling block to Him. Other translations says "Get behind me Satan" but that is not the word in the Greek. Jesus clearly calls Peter a stumling block. If you apply the logic used to say Peter is the foundation of the church and the Pope in his place then you must also say that Peter and thus the Pope are a stumbling block to Jesus.
Exactly Online! That's exactly why Christ left one (1) person in charge! Simon - name change to Peter (name changes are always significant in the bible" "I will build My church upon YOU and hell will not win against it", "behold Satan has demanded to sift you like wheat, but I have prayed that your own faith may not fail; and once you have turned back, you must strengthen your brothers". "Feed my sheep"
All through biblical history God has left someone in charge - Moses, Abraham, etc. It's the same as now. Whether you like it or not, Christ left Peter in charge who placed Linus in charge, then Cletus, Clement, right up to Benedict 16 today.
Think about it, would God simply leave his children alone to flounder around with no direction the way Protestants do, or would God in His wisdom leave us (and support) a spiritual leader. One who's job is to build us up in Christ. Admit it, the Holy Catholic Church is still around 2000 years later, despite people like you, despite communism, despite some corruption, looks like Jesus' promise of prayer is effective so far!
Admit it, the overall message of the Catholic Church is profound, unmatched by any other. Dignity for all human beings, Life from Conception to Natural Death, ethics in business. Read some of the Papal Encyclicals & letters, Benedict 16's Christmas and New Year's message this year. Stop worrying if we baptize our babies and you don't, who cares! Listen to the overall message the Holy Catholic Church issues to the world, it's actually pretty good! Read the OFFICIAL messages.
"Atheist Hitchens in an earlier segment said he firmly does not believe there is an absolute truth but only relative truth. "
This is a self contradictory statement by Hitchens and is patently false. I would think that a man of his seeming intelligence wouldn't make such a mistake in logic.
Tallguy, (So many interpretations, only 1 Holy Spirit "speaking to y'all", please explain?)
Sometimes individuals or groups arrive at contradictory doctrinal conclusions. For example, many people across denominational lines (including yours) still wrestle with these issues: woman ordination, capital punishment, the relationship between church and state, birth control, euthanasia, etc. There has been and always will be differences of opinion within the church; history bears witness to this fact.
Whether a person was not a true believer or lost their salvation is not as important as encouraging and teaching a person coming into a personal relationship or in a relationship with Jesus to continually grow into all aspect into Him until He returns.
Although, I maintain a person can lose their salvation. ;-)
You are so wrong wbmoore.
Rev 2:8-11 speaks to a group of people - some of whom were believers - but not all. This does not speak to losing salvation, but to continue forward, to press on until the end. It is your state upon death that determines if you were saved to begin with.
The fact that we can not lose our salvation speaks to the fact that we have been sealed by God until the day of redemption (Ephesians 4:30), to the fact that God will be faithful to complete the work He began (Romans 8:28-30; Philippians 1:6).
So many interpretations, only 1 Holy Spirit "speaking to y'all", please explain?
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believer and wbmoore,
Scripture speaks to a believer losing their salvation by denying Jesus. It is found in Rev 2:8-11.
Revelation 2:8-11 (King James Version)
8 And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;
9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.
10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.
11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.
Jesus is saying to the believers in Smyrna that if they are faithful to Him unto death (they don't deny Jesus) they will inherit the crown of life but if not they will be hurt by the second death, which is, eternal separation from God.
The believers in the Church of Smyrna were truly born-again believers. He found nothing wrong with their walk with God that they needed to repent from. Yet He warned them that if they denied Him in their darkest hour they would perish eternally.
prophet, how many times and how long does a Christian have to sin before they lose their salvation? Because I've heard numerous testimonies from Christians who fell into a similar to the scenario you shared in your 4:03PM post and they equate it to the prodigal son experience and how they did indeed repent of their sin and turn back to God, but according to Hebrews 6 if they lost their salvation there is no opportunity for them to be saved again and they just think their saved.
Here's a thought to twist some brains....
What if Sovereignty and free will are 2 sides of the same coin and you don't have one without the other? Would God stop being Sovereign if we have free will? Would God need to be sovereign if we didn't?
once save always saved. now there's a false doctrine for ya. but yes! now that i know! i can do whatever i want, and still go to heaven. yes! the best of both worlds. yoohoo1 live like the devil and still spend eternity with him. i can just shove the story of the cross in the trash, cuz we don't need it.
But, then again, the Kingdom message isn't for everyone.
"I do not think its is clear that it says the person was a true christian."
Yes he was, as I've already explained. If he wasn't a true Christian, then he wasn't repentant...and if he wasn't repentant, then he couldn't be brought back to repentant. You can't be brought back to something you never had/were.
And if he wasn't a true Christian, then he didn't fall. You can't fall from somewhere you've never been.
You mean like Galatians 5? (Of which he exhuded much more than the normal Christian)
"So, the only take you have on Hebrews is that it is a hypothetical scenario. As it says explicitly that the person/people was a true Christian."
I do not think its is clear that it says the person was a true christian. People can change but it not be a true change. I think Heb 6 is either a hypothetical or someone who did not make a true repentance, just a partial one.
sigh.. I gotta go. I've enjoyed this.
"he did have the fruit to show for it."
Again, there is a difference of fruit of being used by God and fruit of eternal life.
I stake people's souls on what I teach all the time. Its why I do so much research and prayer.
Like I said, I do not believe people who are truly saved can loose their salvation, but i do not think people who are truly saved will live lives of continuing unrepentant sin.
So, the only take you have on Hebrews is that it is a hypothetical scenario. As it says explicitly that the person/people was a true Christian.
"Of course He did. But I believe that to be able to deny Christ, one never had true saving faith to begin with."
Tell that to the guy who faithfully served God for 20 years....and, yes, he did have the fruit to show for it.
"In reference to people in sin - while I dont think people can loose their salvation.."
So you would stake a person's soul on your belief....
I have told people who were living a pattern of continuing sin that the lack of obedience to God was evidence of a lack of faith in Christ.
"So Christ did not say "If you deny me, I will deny you"?
Of course He did. But I believe that to be able to deny Christ, one never had true saving faith to begin with.
In reference to people in sin - while I dont think people can loose their salvation, I will caution them strongly they may have never been saved to begin with if they can disobey God so.
"Ah, yes, but we can remove ourself from his hand."
so you don't include yourself in the term "no one" :) You must be Someone :)
Prophet, either such a person was a carnal christian or not truly saved to begin with. But only God knows the difference. I really dont understand the concept of carnal christian well.
So Christ did not say "If you deny me, I will deny you"? (paraphrased)
Ah, yes, but we can remove ourself from his hand.
But would you put a person's soul on the line for your belief that a person can be saved, and then fall into sin, and still saved
prophet, I'm not a true calvinist.
I think there's a tension between God's work and our response, and that we will not understand how to reconcile the tension before we see God.
prophet, I've known lots of seminary students to discover they had no faith and come to Christ in seminary. I've known others to realize they had not faith and leave seminary. I've known some to believe they had faith (as in the case of the pastor of over 30 years) who believed he had faith, but later realized he had not truly done so - that it was mental assent, but not faith.
As God has not spoken to me concerning this person you are referencing, I have no idea if he was truly saved and will return to Christ before death. But if he does not (or did not, as I have heard of someone who had been a pastor and became an atheist and died), then he will be in hell. I know that scripture says no one can since we can not remove ourselves from God's hands and Christ will not remove us (John 10:27-29; 6:37), he was not saved, but a Christian in name only. Scripture is clear that some are still destined to doom (John 17:12; 1 Peter 2:8).
And before, you answer that...would you stake a person's eternal soul on your answer?
So, those who were truly saved, and then, let's say, get caught up in lust and prostitutes for 2 years, and dies in the midst of one of his...um...encounters. He's still going to heaven? Oh, yeah...and he wasn't repentant of what he was doing.
prophet, gotta run so we'll talk later, take care my brother, believer
prophet, people can change their mind, but it is God who saves us and God who keeps us and because He loves us and because of the price He paid for us He will never let us go unless He didn't have us in the first place.
prophet, I don't know his situation but I do know people tend to say and do some stupid stuff when they are angry at others and even God and later they regret what they said and did. And I also believe we serve a heavenly Father who understands that and loves us enough to discipline us and yet continue to walk with us throughout this dark time in our life. I can't say he was never saved, but at the same time I can't say he's lost his salvation either.
"prophet, an atheist who becomes a believer may very well have been an atheist, but God's Holy Spirit opened his heart and mind to the truth. Lee Strobel is a great example of an atheist who was out to prove there was no God and fortunately for him, God showed up and showed off and he got saved.'
No. According to your thinking, he was never a true atheist. Because people can't change their mind, and have no say in whether they're Christian or not.
Oh. Is wbmoore a calvinist?
What scripture does it say that we have free will? It doesn't.
What scripture does it say that we dont? It doesn't.
I suppose next you're gonna tell me that I had no choice in the fact that I got saved. I have no say in the choices I make.
prophet, an atheist who becomes a believer may very well have been an atheist, but God's Holy Spirit opened his heart and mind to the truth. Lee Strobel is a great example of an atheist who was out to prove there was no God and fortunately for him, God showed up and showed off and he got saved.
But it still doesn't address the person who was saved 20 years, matured, studied scriptured, served in grace and humility, and even preached the Gospel. Then fell from God and became an atheist.
Are you still going to tell me you know his heart and that you know he never had a true salvation experience?
Are you going to tell me that you know this because he fell, and you believe that no one can fall, so it must be true.
Simplified? You believe that he couldn't have been saved to begin with, because he became an atheist. You don't even acknowledge that he could have been saved, and then purposely denied Christ.
I knew of a preacher who had led many people to Christ and baptized them, for over 30 years, until one day he woke up and realized he needed to respond to Christ in faith and ended up being baptized himself.
"But that's a rather convenient way to save Christian face. If a preacher falls, the just say "he wan't saved to begin with." That's like saying that the atheist who became a Christian "wasn't really an atheist"."
Preachers can sin. Preachers can get hung on doing stuff instead of living by faith, just like everyone. We can be carnal. But we WILL agree with God it is sin and change towards God if we are saved.
Where in scripture does it talk about free will?
prophet, but that fruit producing argument is the same one feet uses to justify the sexual practices of homosexuality and as I said there's a lot of wax fruit out there that can fool us but will never fool God. Plus I've known of preachers who were doing great things for God and came to realize they were not saved themselves and often times through a message God gave them to preach to others, they were producing good fruit and yet they weren't even saved.
I wrote, "I think that such a person would never have been saved to begin with - and fits the pattern of the worries of life preventing him from bearing fruit."
"Which is where you go wrong, because he did bear fruit."
I can not speak to the specifics of this person, as I do not know them.
But I have seen many people confuse the fruit of being used by God with the fruit of faith that leads to eternal life. A changed life must continue to move towards Christ-likeness, otherwise, the salvation experience is not complete and real.
I think we can be used by God to move us to be used in the lives of others to move them towards faith. We can have a change, just as when a seed begins to sprout, but then we wither away instead of producing the fruit of eternal life.
Looks can be deceiving. Another convenient excuse. Just like the atheist...he's just faking it, right?
Because in doing so, you've taken away free will, which includes the free will to change your mind. Jesus himself said if any one denies Him, He would deny them.
prophet, plus remember looks can be deceiving! And even Paul admitted he struggled with sin when he said he did what he didn't want to and he didn't do what he wanted because of the battle he and all other believers fight between our flesh and our spirit. But there is a huge difference between that battle and someone who professes to be saved but continues to willingly and blatantly live in sin. As for pew warmers only God know for sure because only God knows for sure the true condition of each of our hearts as to whether or not we are genuinely saved. It's a matter between God and every person to determine and examine.
But that's a rather convenient way to save Christian face. If a preacher falls, the just say "he wan't saved to begin with." That's like saying that the atheist who became a Christian "wasn't really an atheist".
Look at any church. How many show changed emotions, preferences, actions, activity towards God (and I am not talking about doing things because others expect it)? I submit in most churches in the USA, its about 20-70% of any church. I think it is those people who move towards God on a continuing basis (with a few times of falling backwards and then moving forward again) that are saved. None of the rest are.
Faith changes us and must have evidence of our belief. Without the evidence, we only have a belief, not faith. Even the demons have a belief in Christ and shudder, but are not going to be in heaven.
"I think that such a person would never have been saved to begin with - and fits the pattern of the worries of life preventing him from bearing fruit."
Which is where you go wrong, because he did bear fruit.
"So those Christians who warm the pews of the church for 30 years without "bearing fruit" other than being faithful, are not saved?"
That is what I think Scripture teaches.
prophet, plus there are some who equate the seed that fell in the thorns to represent those who made emotional professions of faith as opposed to a genuine profession of faith and they never truly repented of the sin in their life and thus were never truly saved they just gave the appearance only.
"Just as a person who has had a true salvation experience, lives 20 years in true servitude and submission to God, studying the Word and following His Spirit, if he blatantly denies Christ, then he is no longer saved."
I think that such a person would never have been saved to begin with - and fits the pattern of the worries of life preventing him from bearing fruit. This person might feel they had a saving experience (I know I felt like it when I was 15). But the truth bears out in time, just as it did in my case when I fell away from the faith. While I might have had an emotional experience and made a profession of faith, I do not believe I was saved until I surrendered to God through faith in Christ when I was 31.
wbmoore,
So those Christians who warm the pews of the church for 30 years without "bearing fruit" other than being faithful, are not saved?
"So, you're saying it's all or none? All the way, or you're not saved?"
I think no one can be saved without moving toward Christ-likeness. I don't think everyone is perfectly righteous ever, without the righteousness of Christ. I believe our righteousness comes From Christ.
I believe we sin. But I also believe God moves us more and more towards Christ-likeness, even using our sin and repentance to do so. But I do not believe we can live a continuing sin unto death and be saved.
Just as a person who has had a true salvation experience, lives 20 years in true servitude and submission to God, studying the Word and following His Spirit, if he blatantly denies Christ, then he is no longer saved.
prophet, and I should add nor were they ever saved!
Believer,
Amen. Key word is "blatantly".
"So where does that leave those who have not attained? In heaven, but not part of the bride?"
No. We are either saved or not saved - only the bride of Christ will be in heaven.
" Is there a difference? I believe there is. But I also believe there are those who were truly saved, who will fall and go to hell."
There is the difference between what we believe.
I think if someone ends up in hell it is because he/she was never saved to begin with - he/she is one of those seeds which did not bear fruit.
According to Christ no one can be snatched from His hands (this would include by you yourself (John 10:27-29), and He will not drive you away (John 6:37). But there are many who claim Christ but whom he never knew (Matthew 7:22-23). If this is the case, you can not loose your salvation. So there has to be an understanding of Hebrews 6 that addresses the other scriptures.
"Paul said that by trying to be justified by the law, you are alienated from Christ, having fallen away from grace. Does this mean they have lost their salvation?"
I would say that there is a difference between falling from grace and falling from salvation. That's just an opinion though.
"And what did the author of Hebrews mean when he said it is impossible for people who fall away to be brought back to repentance?"
Probably just what it said.
prophet, if a person professes to be a believer yet the desire of their heart is to blatantly live in sin they are not saved regardless if they believe in eternal security or not.
In the parable of the seed from Matthew 13, we see that the seed (the Word of God) comes to some people and it is immediately eaten by the birds. It never got a chance to do anything. Those are people who hear the Gospel and never repent.
Then there is the seed that falls in the rocky area, and it springs up temporarily, and then the sun burns it up because it didn't take root. These are people who got saved, and then fell away due to persecution, or lack of proper discipleship in understanding the Scriptures.
Thene there are the seed that fell among good ground and it sprang up and produced a crop. Some 30 fold, some 60 fold, some 100 fold. These are Christians who mature to different levels...some to 100% the image of Christ.
"He will do what is needed to bring us into obedience (and lack of forgiveness is disobedience) - if He does not, then we were never saved to begin with, regardless of what we might think or feel."
So, you're saying it's all or none? All the way, or you're not saved?
Prophet,
all scripture must be dealt with when coming up with a doctrinal position, and you have not dealt with the scripture I presented.
Do not misunderstand me, God will only take to heaven those who have faith that is evidenced through change to God. He is coming for His bride and will not take to heaven those who are not righteous. But we get our righteousness from Christ. God will not fail in His purpose.
The question is not whether any of the above is true, but whether one can loose one's salvation. Please provide a reconciliation of the scripture I quoted before with Hebrews 6 that supports everything God has said He will do as well as the idea that one can loose one's salvation.
You said
"Jesus is coming back for a people who are without blemish and spotless. Not for a half-baked church."
I agree."
So where does that leave those who have not attained? In heaven, but not part of the bride? Is there a difference? I believe there is. But I also believe there are those who were truly saved, who will fall and go to hell.
Star,
"I believe that as a believer we can have security in knowing that if we get away from God either through unforgiveness towards those who do us wrong, disobedience to God in something He would have us do, etc. or there is some sin in our life that we need to repent from that God, in His timing, will do what He needs to do to bring us back into a right relationship with him. I do not believe, however, that our eternity is secured regardless of whether we obey God or not."
I agree with what you say here. But my reasoning is a little different - I do not believe God can fail to glorify those He has called - therefore, He will do what is needed to bring us into obedience (and lack of forgiveness is disobedience) - if He does not, then we were never saved to begin with, regardless of what we might think or feel.
Yes, there are people who have "false salvation". Hebrews 6 is clearly not talking about that. As I pointed out, Hebrews 6 is talking about someone that was saved. If someone had a "false salvation" then they were never truly repentant, and Hebrews 6 says that they cannot be brought back to repentance, which means that these people had been repentant.
"In the parable of the ten virgins, you will see that all ten were awaiting the coming of the groom. All ten were saved. But only five made it to the marriage supper. "
I disagree that all ten were saved. All ten were in the assembly, but only 5 were saved.
"Jesus is coming back for a people who are without blemish and spotless. Not for a half-baked church."
I agree.
"If you willfully and unrepentantly continue to practice sin, then I fear for your salvation."
I agree with your statement - but because by doing so, one shows one was never saved to begin with.
Paul said that by trying to be justified by the law, you are alienated from Christ, having fallen away from grace. Does this mean they have lost their salvation?
Galatians 5:4-5
4You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace. 5But by faith we eagerly await through the Spirit the righteousness for which we hope.
And what did the author of Hebrews mean when he said it is impossible for people who fall away to be brought back to repentance?
Hebrews 6:4-6
4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, 6 if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because[b]to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.
It seems to me there are two types of people - those who are saved and those who are not - the seed is planted in both fields and one yields fruit, the other does not. The one that does not is the person who was never saved to begin with.
Hebrews 6:7-8
7 Land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is farmed receives the blessing of God. 8 But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned.
It might appear that someone has fruit, but in fact does not - which again lines up with the scripture of the parable of the sower (Matthew 13:1-22; Mark 4:1-20; Luke 8:1-15).
The Kingdom message isn't for everyone. Few will understand it, and fewer will attain.
In the parable of the ten virgins, you will see that all ten were awaiting the coming of the groom. All ten were saved. But only five made it to the marriage supper. Jesus is coming back for a people who are without blemish and spotless. Not for a half-baked church.
If you willfully and unrepentantly continue to practice sin, then I fear for your salvation.
So by your reasoning, prophet, no one who has ever sinned has continued to be saved. I say this, because John tells us that those who continue to sin are not saved.
The belief that our salvation is secure is steped in Calvinism. And the only backing it has is the opinions of people.
Hebrews 6 clearly shows that a person can fall from salvation. The argument that that passage is a "hypothetical" scenario holds as much water as salvation by works. It is a person's opinion, with not proof.
The argument that it is talking about someone who really never did have a true salavation experience is equally as incorrect. The description it gives shows that it is someone who had a true relationship with God. And the phrase "if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance," shows that they did. How can someone who never had a true salvation experience be brought BACK to repentance. You can't be brought back to something that you never had.
AND if the person never had a true salvation experience, then he couldn't have fallen away. How can you fall away from something that you never had.
So the view that Hebrews 6 is either a hypothetical scenario, or that it's talking about someone who never had a true salvation experience are very incorrect.
Besides, saying that salvation cannot be revoked is very Calvinistic in that it removes all free will on the part of the person.
My two fears are this. That people who believe that salvation cannot be lost, are very much in danger of losing it.
And, in teaching that, if a young Christian who truly did give his life to Jesus, were to hear that message. He may think that it's okay now to live how they want to live regardless of right and wrong, then those who have taught him that have become a stumbling block and may be guilty of his blood if he should fall.
star2, I can't question what happened with Gladys, but please cite scripture that says God does that in the life of most if not all believers with regards to making them aware of any unforgiven sin they have in their life and the fact that if they don't receive His forgiveness for those sins they will spend eternity in hell?
believer
Why would God even bother dealing with a believer on his death bed about sin issues in his/her life like He did with Gladys and others I know and you have known if it wasn't necessary to secure their salvation?
star2, I went back to that post and it did not cite scripture to support your view that God brings to mind any unforgiven sin a believer has in their life so they can confess it to Him and receive His forgiveness so they will not lose their salvation when they die. Do you have any scripture to support that view? Plus in Romans 2:1-11, Paul is speaking to unsaved Jews and Gentiles and specifically Gentiles who considered themselves to be moral.
believer and wbmoore
Part 1
I believe that as a believer we can have security in knowing that if we get away from God either through unforgiveness towards those who do us wrong, disobedience to God in something He would have us do, etc. or there is some sin in our life that we need to repent from that God, in His timing, will do what He needs to do to bring us back into a right relationship with him. I do not believe, however, that our eternity is secured regardless of whether we obey God or not. Let me illustrate what I mean by what I say.
Example 1: My ex-Pastor (now retired) wife's (Mary Jane) had a sister who she knew was born again. Mary Jane's sister attended Church regulary. In the course of time, Mary Jane's sister was hurt by some people in the Church. Also, the Pastor of her Church did something to her, that in her thinking, was unconscientionable and she left Church never to attend again.
Mary Jane's sister had a bad liver and was on her death bed. Mary Jane spent much time with her. She discussed with her many things regarding her salvation and her relationship with God. The issue of unforgiveness came up. Mary Jane told her that if she didn't forgive those who did her wrong then God would not forgive her (Matt 6:14-15). Mary Jane's sister was able to forgive the people in the church and others in her life but she could not forgive her Pastor. Mary Jane told her she had to forgive her Pastor and left her with reminder that Jesus said that if you don't forgive then God will not forgive you.
Mary Jane did not have any more opportunity to talk with her sister before she died and does not know if she ever forgave the Pastor.
Again, I believe that God will make every effort to bring a child of His that is not right with Him back into a right relationship with Him during their life or before they die. I believe that God gave Mary Jane's sister an opportunity to forgive her Pastor. Now, one of two things may have happened. 1) Mary Jane's sister surrendered to God and forgave her Pastor, or 2) Mary Jane's sister refused to forgive.
Jesus said that if you don't forgive, God will not forgive you (Matt 6:14-15).
If Mary Jane's sister obeyed God from her heart and forgave her Pastor then she was forgiven by God and when she died she went to heaven because she had no unforgiven sins in her life. (Truthfully, I believe that is what happened.)
However, let's say that Mary Jane's sister refused to obey God and didn't forgive her Pastor. She, then, would have died with unforgiven sins in her life. What do you really expect a just God and a God who is no respector of person to do with a believer who stands before Him in eternity with unforgiven sins in their life (died in their sins) because they refused to obey God and forgive?
Part 2
Example 2: I attended a Church that had prayer time every Sunday morning during the Church service. Memebers of the Church who felt called by God to be a member of the Prayer Ministry stood in front of the Church during that time to pray for anyone who went to them for prayer. They were also available at the conclusion of the Sunday PM service and the Wedneday night service.
There was a man who was very active in the Church, who God used on many occassions thru the gifts of the spirit, and who also served as member of the Prayer Ministry.
This man was married. One Wednesday night a married woman who started going to the Church went to him for prayer. Something happened between them. He and she became overwhelmed with a stronger sexual attraction for one another. This sexual attraction continued and they eventually began to go to a hotel after Church to have sex. The husband of the woman found out and came to the Church threatening bodily harm to his wife and the man. The Pastor found out and called this man into account. The Pastor told him he was committing adultery, that he was not right with God, that he needed to repent, and if he didn't he would perish. The man insisted that his attraction for the woman was of God and that he would not repent. The Pastor said that because he would not repent that he would no longer serve in the Church effective immediately.
The man and the woman left the Church and left their respective spouses. They went to many Churches looking for a Pastor that would agree with their behavior. After many attempts to find a Pastor that agreed with them they finally found one and attended that Pastor's Church.
Approximately two years after the incident occured with the Pastor of my Church the man became mysteriously ill. He was on his death bed. God dealt with this man about his sin and he repented. He called my Pastor and told him what happened. With a contrite heart he asked my Pastor to forgive him for what he did. My Pastor forgave him.
Now, this man repented with a contrite heart on his death bed and I believe he went to heaven when he died. God forgave King David for his adultery and murder after King David repented before God with a contrite heart and God restored to him the joy of his salvation (Psalm 51) and I believe that is what God did for that man too.
However, if that man had not repented and continued to insist that what he and that woman were doing was of God, then he would have perished when he died because no adulterer shall inherit the kingdom of God (1 Cor 6:9-10).
God will do what He can to retain us in our salvation but if we don't repent and obey God when He deals with us then we will perish because Jesus Christ is the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him (Heb 5:9).
Part 3
God knows what is a barrier between you and Him. Before you die He will convict you of your need to repent from what He is holding against you. It is responding to that conviction that brings forgiveness. If you rebel and don't respond to His urging to repent then that sin is held against you.
I'll bring up Gladys again. When I met her in the nursing home she was a very difficult person to deal with. She cussed and was very ugly towards everyone. When I told her she needed Jesus she would say that she already had Jesus. I told her that she needed to act like it then.
I was going nowhere with Gladys in this issue. God told me to fast and pray for her salvation. I did. Then some time later when I was visiting her in her room God told me to deal with her need to recommit her life to Jesus. I told her that she needed to recommit her life to Jesus and that she heard. When I gave her the gospel the Holy Ghost was all over that lady in a very strong way convicting her that she was a sinner and that Jesus died for her. She wanted to recommit her life to Jesus and she did.
That lady changed. She no longer cussed and was no longer a difficult person to get along with. Plus there were other changes in her life.
A short time later, maybe 3 weeks or so, when I walked into her room, she said that she was afraid to die. I was sort of taken aback by this. I told God that I didn't understand. She just got saved not too long ago and this shouldn't be. God told me to ask her about her past.
As Gladys recounted her life I found out that she had been wounded real bad by her husband and other people. She was holding unforgiveness in her heart towards those people. I told her that she needed to forgive them or God would not forgive her. She began to forgive each person. When she was done with what God was dealing with her about she said, 'I am not afraid to die anymore.'
Gladys was truly born-again. She showed it by a changed life. But there was an unforgiveness issue that God needed to deal with. When God dealt with it, she responded and forgave. She then was no longer afraid to die.
The only way to have peace on your death bed is to be right with God (1 John 4:17). If you have fear, then you are not right with God (1 John 4:18). If you are not right with God it is because there is some sin in your life that God needs for you to repent from. For Gladys it was unforgiveness. For others it might be adultery, like the man I told you about in my Church. For others, it might be a judgmental spirit. For others, it may be that they never put God first in their life. What ever the case may be, God knows what it is and He will deal with a believer about the sin issue and give him a chance to repent. If they obey God, they are cleansed from their unrighteousness and will go to heaven when they die. If they rebel and refuse to obey, then God cannot cleanse them from that unrighteousness. They will perish because they died with unforgiven sin.
Kudos to star, believer, wb, et. al. for taking a post that originally began with a report on Mr. Hitchen's latest blast against "big bad Christianity" and transformed it into a debate on salvation. Most likely Mr. Hitchen's point wasn't worth serious consideration, but this dialouge lately has been enlightening and friendly.
As for me, I begin with the idea that justification is 100% the work of Christ and sanctification is 100% the work of the Holy Spirit. It is through the Spirit that we are equipped to live the life of faith. The considerations of divine manipulation or human cooperation/interplay has been a wholesome exchange. But I see my faith life as a wonderful gift of God, by which I become the light that shines to glorify God, a true and living response to God. I am a humble tool of God, who merely does that duty God lays on me to do. It is grace, God's love that compels. Like Luther, I know that, if left to myself, I would have made a botch of it all.
God bless you for your words and patience.
believer
>>>star2, plus you've still not shared biblical support for your view on this matter.<<<
Yes, I have. Go back and read my two part post beginning with the Thu Jan 01,2009 6:37pm post and you will see that I have.
wb, I tend to lean toward the view that God in His foreknowledge knows who will and will not accept His plan of salvation and has predestined a plan to ensure those who will have the opportunity to, but once again I do not plant my feet in concrete on that view, but at the same time I can't bring myself to believe that God has a hit list on who will and who won't and God creates people who have no choice with regards to where they will spend eternity and in fact creates them to willfully send them to hell. This is a point I choose to err on the side of grace.
star2, plus you've still not shared biblical support for your view on this matter.
star2, unforgiven sin, but when a person is saved are not all our sins forgiven past, present, and future as a result of the shed blood of Christ and isn't a part of our salvation experience that we believe that Christ died to pay the penalty for all our sins and if we put our comlete faith/trust in Christ alone, our sins are forgiven which means from a parental/legal perspective all our sins have been forgiven, but from a relational/intimacy perspective when we sin as a child of God it impacts both our closeness and usefulness to God, but not our standing in God as His child, which is why we need to put I John 1:9 to work.
believer,
I tend to vaciliate between leaning more towards predestination than foreknowledge, and vice-versa. I know from scripture that both exist.
The question is how much of which when....
I KNOW it all depends on God. And yet, I KNOW we MUST respond in faith that has evidence of a change to God (obedience). I know we will sin and must agree with God that it was sin and change.
To me the question has always been: how much of it is on me and how much of it is on God?
It seems from Scripture it is all God (see post dated Fri Jan 02, 2009 12:39 am). I have not been able to reconcile the sciprtures to make any other position make sense, nor have I seen anyone else successfully do so - and I STARTED with the position that it depended on ME to respond and it was totally my choice.
Star2,
I'm not sure what you meant by, "Sometimes wbmoore you have to actually live out those scriptures before you can really know what they mean. "
But I know what it means to be convicted of the truth, to agree with God concerning my thoughts or feelings or actions. I know what it means to have faith. I know what it means to sin after having faith and then to not want to agree with God (confess) and change (repent). I know what it means to not obey God and to be chastized for it and later disciplined for it (because I did not want to agree and change when God first prompted me).
I will admit (grin) that I have not lived the verses to learn what it means to not be repentant unto death.
Prophet,
Please provide scriptural evidence for the ability to loose one's salvation.
You have provided one verse, Hebrews 6:4-6, which has been shown to be a hypothetical, given the context of it with other scirptures on the same topic. Another alternative is that the verse is speaking of someone who was instructed in the truth and claimed to be Christian and even participated in the work of God, but who never had truth faith. This would line up with the fact that Christ will say to some that He never knew them (Mt 7:21-27). If He had known them and they sinned and lost salvation, then He would say they failed or lost salvation, rather than He never knew them (for the latter would be a lie, and God does not lie).
thelordismylight, please stop being purposefully offensive.
Prophet,
believe it or not, we are really saying the same thing concerning the need to live holy lives, but from different perspectives.
If you will read what believer and I wrote, we both said you need to have evidence of faith. This evidence is a changed life. If one claims faith but has no evidence, one is not saved.
From my understanding of what you and star are saying, if you claim to have faith and then sin (or perhaps commit some sin from which you do not repent) you loose you salvation, but if you repent before death you regain your salvation.
I am saying that if you truly have the faith Christ gives us, your life will show that and you will NOT commit a sin from which you will not repent. IF you DO commit sin (and you will), you WILL repent. If you do NOT repent, then you never were saved to begin with.
The result is the same - someone with unrepentant sin going to hell, the difference is whether you had the faith which saves you to begin with. From what I understand you and star are saying, whether you go to heaven once you have faith depends on what you do (not sin, or repent from sin to regain salvation). I am saying that it depends on God working in us to not sin or to repent from sin to keep us sealed.
I believe it is an impossibility for someone to love God, to have faith in God, to be saved, and then sin some sin from which he is unrepentant unto death resulting in a loss of salvation. If someone sins in such a way, they never truly had faith to begin with.
One more point. I am put off by comments that state that Jesus stood up against the established church authorities of His day. Close, but not as accurate as one could make it.
Jesus was really put off by self-righteousness (hence the tax-collector went home justified, not the Pharisee, cf. Luke 18: 9-14), indifference to His teaching, and slowness to believe. Granted, the Sanhedrin and priesthood were guilty on all counts. But Jesus came to seek and save the lost. That was why there were tax-collectors/sinners and Pharisees in the crowd when Jesus presented the Parable of the Lost Son (in Luke 15, which I love to call the "lost chapter of Luke").
Which of those two sons are you, the hopelessly fallen sinner or the loyal son who complains how he never gets what his goodness deserves? Once you have this figured out, remember the loving father.
tliml,
Please knock off the hysterics. It desn't help your position if you rant.
This last exchange between you and star reminds me of the Council of Augsburg in 1530, when the Catholic princes of southern Germany were hearing Luther's teachings for the first time. Most were impressed by the Scriptural foundations of the Augsburg Confession and wondered if there would be a Catholic response to them. The Catholic apologist, John Eck said there would be, but drawn from the Church fathers. Duke William of Bavaria then noted that the Lutherans were sitting square on Scriptures while the Catholics were sitting aside from Scriptures.
Peace. Truce. I'm not knocking Catholics here, just relating a little Church history.
The point I am making is who to follow, one who draws doctrine and teaching from Scriptures, or one who follows the feelings and whims of one's heart?
Who would think the answer would be easy.
tliml, I am 60 yrs old you are but 46 to 48. I condemn no one. The Word of God condemns you. Good night.
THE plan? THE plan? YOUR plan! Not GOD'S plan! That is paper! Lost in the ages! I believe God LOVES HIS PEOPLE! Obviously you believe God is very capable of prejudice and hate. I believe he is not.
I don't need one. I'm sure I'm a bit older than you. I'll see you at a tribunal within the next fifty years. There I will provide incriminating evidence against you. That is where I will show you MY proof! Me and the many others you condemn.
thelordismylight
I have scripture to back up the plan of salvation (see below), where is yours?
AHA! So OBVIOUSLY, Star is under the strict belief that GOD HATES THE IGNORANT! Seems almost like a man named HITLER! You WILL burn, star, for your evil malicious nature. Your soul is arsenic.
plan of salvation
God's Word is truth (John 17:17) and Jesus is the only way to God the Father and eternal life (John 14:6).
"For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." (Romans 10:13)
"How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in who they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?" (Roman 10:14)
"And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned." (Mark 16:15-16)
"And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:" (Hebrews 9:37)
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)
"But God commendeth his love towards us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us." (Romans 5:8)
"For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;" (Romans 3:23)
"For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." (Romans 6:23)
"...Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved..." (Acts 16:30-31)
"...if thou shall confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shall believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved."(Romans 10:9)
"Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me." (Romans 3:21)
"And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely." (Rev 22:17)
"And I saw a new heaven and a new earth:....And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life." (Rev 21:1,27)
Rev 20:11-15
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
1 John 3:15
Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.
I have scripture to back up what I say tliml, you have none.
Star2-
I wonder are you 100% sure about your stance? Whether you are or not, I'm sure you'll have a long long time to think about it where you're going. Far away from God's love that he extends to those that do good unto others, and NOT to those that pass judgment SO easily! Oh and yes I am judging you right here, for the first time in my life I'm determining that person is going to Hell. And I am POSITIVE that you are. You so willingly point billions of innocent people in Its direction, yet the way you point, the way you shall fall, and the way you fall, the way you shall stay.
star2-
We don't force them to take Confirmation. And do you believe Baptism is the mark of a Christian?
thelordismylight
Any person who hasn't received Jesus as their Savior and Lord will go to hell. It doesn't matter if he/she is a homosexual, an adulterer, a murderer, a thief, a lier, a drunkard, a drug addict, a rebellious person, an idolater, or any other kind of sinner.
Man is accountable to God. Every person who has ever lived, lives now, or will live must give an account for the life he/she has lived. If all their sins have been forgiven by Jesus before that person enters into eternity then he/she shall inherit eternal life. If not, then God will cast him/her into hell as punishment for having sinned against God.
God does not want anyone to go to hell. He made a way for you, me, Online4Him, and everyone else to be forgiven of their sins. He had Jesus, who knew no sin, to become sin for us. When Jesus died on the cross He took God's judgment for our sins upon Himself. Jesus paid the price for our sin, which is death, so we would not have to.
Jesus is not dead any longer. God raised Him from the dead. He sits at the right hand of the Father. Because He does we can be set free from sin, have a meaningful life here on the earth, and have eternal life when we die.
If you believe that Jesus died for you, and you want to receive what He did for you, then you can be saved if you turn to Him in prayer, and ask Him to forgive you of your sins, to come live in your heart, and be the Lord (boss) of you life. If you do, then Jesus will come live in your heart. He will make you a new creature in Christ Jesus. He will give you a new nature which is after His own. As you live for Him He will give you meaning and purpose in life, and He will set you free from the sins that plague your life.
If you don't, life will continue as it is or even get worse, and when you die you will perish because you died in your sins.
Do you want Jesus to save you from the penalty of sin, which is eternal death? If you do, then turn to God in prayer and ask Him to forgive you of your sins, to come live in your heart, and be the Lord (boss) of your life.
Sometimes wbmoore you have to actually live out those scriptures before you can really know what they mean.
I need to ask Jesus when I get to heaven why He even died on the cross, if Christians can still live in sin, deny Him, and still go to heaven. It seems like a waste of time for Him to do that for nothing.
And I'll be sure to tell my friends that they got the best of both worlds. They can live like the devil, and still go to heaven.
The epitome of cheap grace at work here.
wbmoore and believer,
Speaking of hypothetical situations. Here's just a couple out of hundreds of hypothetical situations the Bible addresses.
Matthew 5:46 "For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?" So that's a hypothetical question. You can't love someone that loves you, but if it were possible, what kind of reward would you have?
matthew 6:14 "For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you..."
Again, a hypothetical situation. We really can't forgive men, but if it were possible, then God would forgive us.
thelordismylight,
I meant the new covenant was prophesied in Jeremiah 31:31-34
tliml
Jesus prayed the following to the God the Father:
John 17:17 - "Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth."
The Word of God establishes what truth is (John 17:17). Every person needs to examine their life in the light of scripture.
Catholics hinge their salvation on infantile baptism (will of man) and mental assent to the teachings and practices of the RCC at confirmation (will of the flesh). According to John 1:12-13, neither method makes one a child of God. If a person is not a child of God then he/she is not saved.
John 1:12-13
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
thelordismylight,
Jeremiah 31:31-24 tells of the new convenant. This began with the Christ foretold of by Isaiah in isaiah 53. All you need to do is accept that God has sent Jesus to suffer and die for your sins and then you too can be with God in heaven.
Star2 (continued)
I like the idea of having control, but I think its an illusion.
Christ chose us from the beginning of time. (1 Thessalonians 5:23-25)
Christ author and perfecter of our faith (Hebrews 12:2).
God is faithful to complete His work (2 Thessalonians 2:13).
It is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose (Philippians 2:13).
God has an eternal, unchanging, plan and it includes everything and He works everything out so it will come to pass (Psalm 33:11; Isaiah 14:24-27; 19:12; 22:11; 23:9; 37:26; 46:10-11; Jeremiah 49:20; 50:45; Proverbs 16:4; Ephesians 1:11).
All the days of our lives were ordained by God (Psalm 139:16).
We must have faith (John 3:16).
The will of God is that all the Father gives Christ will come to Him & be raised up in the last day and all that see & believe in Christ & will have eternal life (John 6:37-40)
The work of God is that we believe in Christ (John 6:29)
No one can come to Christ unless the Father who sent Christ draws him (John 6:44)
Everyone who has heard and learned from God the Father will come to Christ (John 6:45)
No one can come to Jesus unless God has enabled him (John 6:65).
All the Father gives to Christ will come to Him and never be driven away (John 6:37; 17:24).
Some peoples names are not written in the book of Life (Revelation 13:8, 17:8)
Some people will stumble and are destined to disobey the message (1 Peter 2:8)
Yet, on the other hand:
Each person dies for his own sins (Deuteronomy 24:16; Eze 18:4)
Jesus invited all to come to Him (Matthew 11:28)
God wants all to be saved (1 Timothy 2:3-4).
Personally, I think there is a tension between our responsibility and God's work, but I'm not convinced that idea is supported scripturally.
"Many Christians have a problem with dying to what they want to do what God wants them to do. I am such a person. Many times I fight God in what He wants me to do. Am I lost? No, but if I presist and die in that rebellion I will perish."
If you persist to continue in sin unto death, you were not saved, for those who do so are not saved (1 John 3:4-6). If you have faith, you will agree with God on what you do that is wrong is in fact wrong (1 John 1:9). Confess means either to declare or to agree/concede (http://www.biblestudytools.net/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=3670&version=nas) By agreeing with God on your sins, they are forgiven through faith in Christ.
"And from experience the more I rebel the harder it is for me to repent. What will the end be for me? Repentance, I know. What will I have to go through for that to happen? I don't know."
I happen to agree with this statement wholeheartedly.
Star2,
"you are saved not because God did His part only as you are suggesting but because God did His part and you did your part when you believed Him and responded to Him."
I believe there is a combination of God's work and my personal responsibility to respond in faith. However, I can not point to scripture that says I have a free will. I also know that Christ is the author and perfecter of my faith. Is it possible to fail to respond to God? I do not know scripture that says it is possible, only some that seem to imply it.
I can point to scripture that warns us to not harden our hearts. I can point to scripture which tells us someone hardened his own heart. I can point to scripture which tells us GOD hardened someone's heart. But I can not point to scripture which tells us we have free will.
"God will conform you to His Son's image but you have to cooperate, you know, obey Him."
I am not convinced from scripture it is possible to ultimately avoid obedience if you are saved. I actually think Scripture says otherwise.
Scripture SEEMS to teach a tension between the work of God and our need to believe. But it is clear it does NOT depend on me - for even my faith is a gift from God (Ephesians 2:8). I really haven't been able to match our responsibility to believe (which I believe we have - not I did not write "need" for the need is definitely present), with our desire for free will, with the FACT that God's word tells us HE does it all.
"Salvation is a two way contract. If it is not, then you are nothing more than a puppet that has no will to choose anything. "
And this offends your sensibilities. I understand that. My question is, where is the scriptural support that we are anything other than what God makes us?
I agree God wants us to choose Him. I happen to like that idea, and believe it is necessary. But I question whether it is possible without God giving us the faith that engenders obedience. I also question whether once we have that faith it is possible to not respond in the affirmative.
"Humans are not like computers where they have to obey the instructions given to them by the programmer. Based on my understanding of what you seems to be communicating that is what you believe. We have free wills and can choose to obey God moving on us to do His will or we can refuse to obey. "
I like the idea of a free will. I think it makes sense. However, I find no Biblical support of us having a free will where God is concerned in regards to accepting the faith in Christ which Christ authors in us.
You say that everyone besides you and your friends are going to Hell. You know how that makes me feel? Gosh. After passing sentence on me can you blame me for not taking a knack to you?
thelordismylight, if I wasn't born-again I would tear you apart personally and put you down like you do me.
believer
>>>the other is saying if a person dies with unconfessed sin in their life<<<
I didn't say unconfessed sin I said unforgiven sin.
believer, Prophet and I both believe that a believer can lose their salvation but the specifics on how that happens is different.
I do not necessarily agree with Prophet that denying Jesus will cause you to lose your salvation because after Peter confessed from a revelation from God the Father that Jesus was the Son of the Living God he later denied thrice that he ever knew Him yet Jesus restored him after He was raised from the dead.
I would think the unseen thoughts of the heart is what would determine if the believer who denied Jesus lost his salvation with no hope of him ever being able to regain it by coming back into a right relationship with God. Only God knows what is going on in the heart of the believer who denies the Lord. Only God can judge those unseen thoughts and whether or not it is of the kind that disqualifies him from being able to be restored.
If a truly born-again believer who has experienced God decides that he doesn't want that anymore than I guess he would then lose his relationship with God and his eternal life.
Oh My Yall are making it more difficult then it needs to be, I have been reading along for the last several days. Its very simple and always have been, it hasn't changed, the word of God hasn't changed only our selfishness has. John 3:16 "For God so Love the World that he gave his only begotten son, that whosoever believes in him, shall not perish but have everlasting life" Its simple "whosoever believes in him" if you believe, repent and accept Christ you get into heaven. Plain and simple, if christians themselves would not make something tough out of something so simple, then maybe we wouldn't have atheist saying that christianity is bad for the world.
Forgivensinner,
you said, "Yes, but it was the son that chose not to live with the Father while the Father waited for his return. Some sons will return and some may not."
My understanding from both John 6:39 and Luke 15 is that Jesus is given the sons by the Father and Jesus will not lose one, though He will have to go retrieve lost sons and have them repent and return to the flock. So if He won't lose one then the person you say may never repent and be lost forever should not rightfully be called a son to begin with.
believer
If a person dies with unforgiven sin in his/her life where does that person go? Heaven or Hell?
Humph. That's all I got right now.
forgiven, I'm not sure what wb means when he speaks to the issue of predestination, if he's a strict predestinationist or if like all Calvinists I know he believes in a combination of foreknowledge and predestination which I personally tend to adhere to and please note the words tend to.
forgiven, if a name has not been sealed by the Holy Spirit in the Lamb's Book of Life those names will be blotted out, but if that name has been sealed then no it will not be blotted out. I personally believe that since it's God's desire that all should be saved that everyone's name is written in the Lamb's Book of Life, but only those who genuinely accept Christ will have their name sealed in the Lamb's Book of Life by God's Holy Spirit and those names will never be blotted out.
prophet and star2, you guys need to determine what a person has to do or not do to lose their salvation, one of you are saying it's when a person denies God and the other is saying if a person dies with unconfessed sin in their life, so which is it?
believer, does Jesus erase names from the Book of Life?
forgiven, the permanence affirms whether or not the person was saved in the first place.
Sorry, I seem to have worked backwards.
star2, I was wondering if you were going to cite those scriptures I asked about in my 8:00 PM post to you?
believer wrote: "b. This faith can be examined and tested for durability and permanence. (I Peter 1:6-7) (Colossians 1:21-23) (Hebrews 3:5-6) (Luke 8:13)"
I guess this is exactly what is of concern.
Prophet wrote: "My fear is that those very ones who believe they can't lose their salvation will be the very ones that do."
Mine to Prophet! Mine too!
Daniel wrote: "Once dead to self the security issue is moot."
I always enjoy what you have to say!
star, I find you to be a wise woman.
wbmoore, you are saved not because God did His part only as you are suggesting but because God did His part and you did your part when you believed Him and responded to Him.
God will conform you to His Son's image but you have to cooperate, you know, obey Him.
Salvation is a two way contract. If it is not, then you are nothing more than a puppet that has no will to choose anything.
Humans are not like computers where they have to obey the instructions given to them by the programmer. Based on my understanding of what you seems to be communicating that is what you believe. We have free wills and can choose to obey God moving on us to do His will or we can refuse to obey. Many Christians have a problem with dying to what they want to do what God wants them to do. I am such a person. Many times I fight God in what He wants me to do. Am I lost? No, but if I presist and die in that rebellion I will perish.
And from experience the more I rebel the harder it is for me to repent. What will the end be for me? Repentance, I know. What will I have to go through for that to happen? I don't know.
To add to what I wrote earlier:
If we are saved, it is because God chose us to be saved from the beginning (2 Thessalonians 2:13). If we are saved, God will be faithful to sanctify us (1 Thessalonians 5:23-25). If we are saved, it is because GOD predestined us to be saved (Ephesians 1:5; Ephesians 1:11-12; 2 Thessalonians 2:13). If we are saved, God will conform us to the likeness of His Son (Romans 8:28-30). Does God make mistakes? No.
"Eternal security is cheap grace theology."
Eternal security is found in death to self. This is where some folks have it backwards. Calvainsts (who are the champions of Eternal security) say we are dead and cannot choose Christ. I think we need to die to self and surrender to Christ. Once dead to self the security issue is moot.
If we have this faith, we are saved and will not loose that salvation - for you will not be snatched from the hands of Jesus, not even by you yourself (John 10:27-29).
If we are saved, God will be faithful to sanctify us (1 Thessalonians 5:23-25). If we are saved, it is because GOD predestined us to be saved (Ephesians 1:5; Ephesians 1:11-12). If we are saved, God will conform us to the likeness of His Son (Romans 8:28-30).
We must have faith to be saved - this is belief (something that even demons have) coupled with that something inexplicable that results in obedience. It is not our obedience that saves us, for then it would depend upon us. It is the faith that results in obedience that saves us (Ephesians 2:8-9). If we do not have the habit of obedience, we will have a habit of disobedience. We know from 1 John 3:9 that those who continue to sin (live a life, a habit if you will, of sin) are not born of God.
wb, your view of Hebrews 6 is mine as well.
star2, please share your biblical support for the statement you made that since God knows the exact moment we will die that He will bring to mind any unconfessed sin we have in our life so we will have the opportunity to repent of those sins before we die so we won't go to hell as a result of having unconfessed sin in our life.
It seems to me the question is where are you when you die?
As for whether you can loose your salvation or not, I think it depends on your view of sovereignty of God. Is God in control or not? Does His plan include everything or not? How powerful and faithful is your God? If He is the author and perfector faith (Hebrews 12:2). He is the source of salvation for those who obey him. Does HE create a faith that fails? Does He unable to perfect your faith? Can God fail? He said you are sealed until the day of redemption (Eph 4:30)
I made a profession of faith when I was 15. I accepted Jesus as my savior. I spoke in tongues.
Was I saved? I dont think so. The reason being that I dont think I had faith, only emotions and belief. I fell away within 6 months. I got into many things occult, including worshipping other gods. I was one of those seeds that sprouted fast and then died quickly (Matthew 13:1-23). I was the one whose seed grew among the rocks and I was not fruitful. But later, as an adult, I made a surrender to Christ - a very different thing. I know Christ died for my sins - it has changed my life. I know I am saved. I know I sin. I know I repent. I know I will be in heaven with God on the day of redemption.
It is not about cheap grace, but about expensive grace. Christ DIED for me. I must die to myself daily. Its not me dying that saves me, but it gives evidence of the faith CHRIST authored in me. I've written a little on this before.
Heb 6 talks about a hypothetical - if it were possible for your to loose your salvation, and you lost it, you would be unable to regain it.
http://wbmoore.wordpress.com/2008/11/03/once-saved-always-saved-or-can-you-loose-your-salvation/
http://wbmoore.wordpress.com/2008/10/31/predestination/
Plus if Hebrews 6:4-6 is true and I believe it is, it clearly teaches that if anyone falls away they cannot repent and are lost. It doesn't state how long they were partakers of the Holy Spirit only that they were and they fell away and as a result they cannot repent and are hopelessly lost regardless of how long they have been saved or how long they have before they die a physical death. Prophet has said this falling away occurs when one denies Christ and star2 has said this falling away occurs as as result of not obeying Christ and in a way every believer can plead guilty to both and that being the case our fates are sealed if indeed it is possible for a true believer to lose their salvation.
prophet, I'm not sure what question you're referring to because I thought I answered it already, please let me know if I haven't, thanks.
Summary:
1. If you are a true believer you are safe forever in Christ! (John 6:47, Hebrews 13:5b)
2. If you profess to know Christ and yet do not have persevering faith and corresponding works, you have no real faith at all. (I Corinthians 15:2) (Colossians 1:22-23) (Hebrews 3:12,14)
3. It is necessary therefore, for you to continue in faith and corresponding works until the day you die. If you desire to do so and can do so, you are exhibiting true persevering faith, the faith that only God can give. (Hebrews 12:1-2) (Galatians 6:7-9) (I Peter 1:5-11)
"Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, and to present you faultless before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy, to God our Savior, who alone is wise, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and forever. Amen" (Jude 24-25)
The bottomline is we can't save ourselves nor can we keep ourselves saved, if we could do either then Christ died in vain. It is Christ who saved us and it is Christ who keeps us.
From "The Preservation and the Perseverance of the Saints" (II Timothy 1:12b) by Jim Elliff,
The Preservation of the Saints:
1. We are kept by the Promise of God. (John 6:37-39)
2. We are kept by the Power of God. (John 10:28-30)
3. We are kept by the Passion of God. (Romans 8:38-39)
4. We are kept by the Priesthood of God. (Hebrews 7:23-25)
5. We are kept by the Presence of God. (Ephesians 1:13-15)
The Perseverance of the Saints:
1. The believer will persevere in his faith.
(I Peter 1:5,9)
a. This faith is a gift from God. (Ephesians 2:8-9)
b. This faith can be examined and tested for durability and permanence. (I Peter 1:6-7) (Colossians 1:21-23) (Hebrews 3:5-6) (Luke 8:13)
2. The believer will persevere in his fruits. (I John 3:13-14)
a. These works are a gift of God. (Ephesians 2:10)
b. Good works are the result of true faith. (James 2:26)
3. These works may be examined and tested for durability and permanence. (II Corinthians 12:20-21, 13:5) (Matthew 12:33)
Re: Eternal Security
Part A
Jesus said that if you love Him you will keep His commandements (John 14:23). God says in His Word through the Apostle John that if you keep Jesus' commandments then you will be perfected in His love (1 John 2:5). He said that if you are perfected in His love then you will have confidence before Him on the day of judgment (1 John 4:17). If you don't have confidence but have fear it is because you have not been perfected in God love which means you didn't keep His commandments (1 John 4:18). The unknown writer of Hebrews says that Jesus Christ is the author of eternal salvation to all who obey him (Heb 5:9).
Once a person becomes born-again through the regeneration of the Holy Ghost and evidences this new birth by a changed life, he is expected to walk in obedience to Jesus (make Jesus Lord) and is to live godly in Christ Jesus. Every truly born-again person starts out on this path but reality has it that some get away from God. They may have been hurt by someone and chose not to forgive. They may have gotten their eyes off of God and had an adulterous affair like King David did or like the man at the Church of Corinth who had relations with his father's wife. They may have gotten involved with the occult (played with the ouji board or went to a fortune teller for fun). Maybe they just got rebellious towards God about something God wanted them to do. Whatever they have done they begin to walk in the flesh, they come under condemnation for their sins (Romans 8:1), and they end up losing interest in the things of God and they live like the world. I have witnessed this in different degress in several believers.
Jesus place the retention of our salvation into the hands of God. God will make every effort to bring a wayward Christian back into a right relationship with Him. The believer can either choose to obey or choose to disobey. If the believer choose to disobey and he dies in his sin then he will perish because God is not a respector of persons. If he choose to obey then he will live.
Re: Eternal Security
Part B
Jesus placed the retention of our salvation into the hands of God. If a truly born again believer, one who has been regenerated by the Holy Ghost and shows this regeneration by a changed life, for some reason gets away from God, then God will make every effort to bring the wayward Christian back into a right relationship with Himself before it is too late or before he dies. If the wayward Christian repents and obeys God then when he dies he will go to heaven. If he doesn't obey God, then when he dies he will parish.
God knows when you are going to die and under what conditions. He also knows if there are any sin issues in your life that need to be dealt with before you die. GOD WILL MOVE ON YOU TO REPENTANCE BEFORE YOU DIE. IF YOU COOPERATE, then WHEN YOU DIE you WILL GO TO HEAVEN because ALL your SINS have been FORGIVEN. IF YOU DON'T, then WHEN YOU DIE you WILL GO TO HELL because YOU DIED WITH UNFORGIVEN SIN in your life.
God is no respector of persons. Die in your sins and you will perish whether you are a believer or not (Romans 2:1-11).
John 10:27-30 - Jesus is saying that no man outside of yourself can pluck you out of the Father's hand.
When a person is saved they do not have a blanket forgiveness that grants them eternal life when they die even if they don't obey God when He calls them to repentance. Yes, a believer is sealed with the Holy Ghost but the believer can break that seal at death thru refusing to repent when God deals with him for repentance. Sometimes, a believer, will break that seal by walking away from God altogether ( I know of someone like that) or they habitually refuse to repent and God no longer continues to convict them of their need to repent (God will not strive with man forever).
God's Word in Hebrews 5:9 makes it very plain that Jesus Christ is the author of eternal salvation to all who OBEY Him. A believer must obey God in what He wants them to do. If there is some sin issue that the believer on his death bed or before he dies needs to repent from then they have best obey God when He moves on them and repent or they will not inherit eternal life.
The believers that have a rebellious spirit are the ones who are more likely to lose their salvation than those who hold to the doctrine once saved always saved.
My fear is that those very ones who believe they can't lose their salvation will be the very ones that do.
Forgiven,
Amen.
Jesus is coming back for a bride that is without spot or wrinkle.
Ephesians 5
"25Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
26That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
27That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish."
And II Peter 3
" 14Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless."
I'm not sure if any of you have ever heard the kingdom message. Talking about 30, 60, 100 fold Christians. Overcomers versus typical Christians. The great falling away. Reigning with God etc, etc...
For me, knowing I must work out my salvation with fear and trembling, knowing I could lose my salvation because of my own stupidity keeps me striving all the more to reamin in Him.
Rev. 3:5 "He who overcomes will thus be clothed in white garments; and I will not erase his name from the book of life, and I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels."
believer,
I hope you have an answer for my question when you return.
Eternal security is cheap grace theology.
prophet and forgiven, going to dinner see you guys later, but I'm enjoying the discussion.
So these once-devout Christians who become atheists were never truly saved? And you know this how? Only because you believe that the only way that could happen is because they weren't truly saved?
Why did Jesus say he would deny them who denied him?
forgiven, that's one reason why I hold to the teaching of eternal security and am on guard against the promotion of cheap grace theology.
Believer,
I believe it does.
prophet, but the passage from Hebrews does not differentiate between young or older believers only that if we can lose our salvation and do, we can't be saved again.
prophet, but based on the father's response when his son returned even though his son would have missed out on the blessings of being his father's son in the eyes of his father he would have always seen him as his son. Which is exactly what the verses in Corinthians say about a Christian who messes up.
"prophet, no, I never did that personally, but my words and actions may have said that to other people."
Amen. That's why God looks at the heart. Not at our actions. In my younger years I have told God thing to the effect "Ok, I'm done with you. I've had enough of this."
God knew my heart didn't really mean that. I was just frustrated with things going on in my life and how they weren't working out the way I wanted them. My heart wasn't saying "I don't want anything to do with you." It was saying "I'm frustrated and I'm putting the blame on you."
God knows our hearts.
believer,
Debatable, indeed. Thanks for opening my eyes to the debate ~ for me personally, I want to continue to grow spiritually, but for one that is erring....why lead them back? Back to what?
prophet, no, I never did that personally, but my words and actions may have said that to other people.
See, a young Christian who questions things in his life, who may say certain things out of ignorance or immaturity, God knows (as with Peter) that it is a matter of immaturity. The point is, that you realized your sin (just like Peter), and asked for forgiveness. Just like the prodigal son did. If the prodigal never came back, he never would have regained his position and benefits as a son.
But to someone who has matured, and known the depths and deepness of Christ, and had a sincere and deep relationship with God. If he falls, it will be a fall so hard and strong that it will be impossible for him/her to reutrn. The further you fall, the harder it is to recover.
That's why some of the greatest atheists who become Christians are among the greatest witnesses.
prophet, I'm not convinced they were truly saved in the first place, plus what will happen to them if they repent down the road?
prophet, I've never met a person who had a genuine conversion experience who has turned their back on Christianity, I have met some who said they were a Christian at one time who have, but when I asked them to share their salvation experience at best it was an emotional experience at best or they got saved at a very young age when they raised their hand at VBS or some other event but in reality there was never a genuine conversion experience and when tough times came or God didn't come through as they thought He should or they bought into other thinking like eastern religions and even atheism and they bought the lies and they bailed out of Christianity.
Beleiver,
Now can you answer my question from my post at 4:32 pm?
Believer,
Did you, with the knowledge that He was Lord, deny His Lordship with your mouth? Did you say "Jesus I deny that you are the Christ, and that you died and rose again for my sins"?
prophet, when I first became a Christian I really struggled with the Lordship issue and I said, thought, and did things that I know as a Christian I shouldn't have done so in essence I was denying God and I'm sure there were times I did deny God, I truly repented of those sins and when I finally understood it, I wholeheartedly surrendered to the Lordship of Jesus Christ and my life has never been the same. Needless to say I know this is a struggle many Christians go through, but that being the case are you saying I lost my salvation and based on the passage from Hebrews I can't be saved again?
But as I pointed out. There are many who do have a genuine salvation experience, but do not grow. Whether from personal choice, or because they are not taught. And though they have a genuine salvation experience, they can, and will, fall.
But I believe that even mature Christians can fall. It's not very probable, but it can. I have met people who were very devout Christians at one time, very studied and learned in the Scriptures, who became atheists and denied that God even existed. Are they still saved? They are sinning with no repentance. Is there salvation for those? If there is, then we must not preach the Gospel of the cross.
forgiven, plus we never read the son wanted to stop being his father's son only that he thought and rightfully so that his father did indeed have the right to disown him.
forgiven, regardless of what the son thought he was still and would always be his father's son.
prophet, as I said in the beginning this is one of the most debated issues in the Church, but the bottomline is this, if we have made a genuine profession of faith and our desire is to be wholeheartedly obedient to God's Great Commandment in order for Him to allow us to join Him in fulfilling His Great Commission, this issue becomes a non-issue to those of us who are doing just that. My concern with the eternal security issue is that it can inadvertently give some the idea that all they need to do is say a little prayer and they're guaranteed a place in heaven and can live their life any way they want and the issue I have with the losing your salvation side is that it can lead to legalism or people living for God out of fear as opposed to out of love for God and others and the uncertainty of what a person has to do to lose their salvation or has to do to keep their salvation and then add into that the teaching from Hebrews that if you do lose your salvation there is no going back.
Revelations 21:8 "But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."
The NIV uses the word "cowardly" in place of "fearful". Is denying Christs for fear of persecution fearful or cowardly?
believer wrote: "forgiven, but no where do we read that the prodigal son ever stopped being his father's son. Even though he realized his father had every right to disown him as a son, we read no where that the father even entertained that thought. To me this is a great example of eternal security."
Only on the part of the Father. It is the Son who chooses to divorce himself from the Father and eternal security.
Believer,
Had Jesus offered the ultimate sacrifice before Peter had denied Him?
Matthew 5:46 "For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?" So that's a hypothetical question. You can't love someone that loves you, but if it were possible, what kind of reward would you have?
matthew 6:14 "For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you..."
Again, a hypothetical situation. We really can't forgive men, but if it were possible, then God would forgive us.
prophet, are you saying that Peter died and went to hell since He denied Christ three times and you believe that once a believer does that then they can't be saved again?
Correct. Hebrews isn't talking about a specific individual. It's talking about anyone who has a sincere relationship with God and the fact that they can fall.
prophet, the passage in Hebrews is not necessarily talking about a specific individual but about the struggle that these believers were struggling with and the consequence of what would happen IF it were possible for someone to walk away from a genuine relationship with God through Christ.
Hebrews 6 clearly says that they can.
believer,
Do you want to find out?
Also, the idea that someone may have not had a true salvation experience. That may be true. But there are those who truly, and whole-heartedly gave their hearts to Jesus. But that's as far as they went. They never grew. If they were to die, they would go to heaven. But those are the ones that are in danger of falling. They are the ones who are victims of falls doctrines. They may have had a true salvation experience, but they never mature. And, in the last days, they will fall.
prophet, then the question comes again, can a true child of God deny their heavenly Father and/or their Savior, Jesus Christ?
forgiven, but no where do we read that the prodigal son ever stopped being his father's son. Even though he realized his father had every right to disown him as a son, we read no where that the father even entertained that thought. To me this is a great example of eternal security.
believer,
I just did. "If any man denies me before men, I will deny him before my father."