Updated 07:54 am.EST, Mon November 23, 2009

Education|Sun, Dec. 28 2008 12:40 PM EST

Anti-Theist: Christianity is Bad for the World

By Michelle A. Vu|Christian Post Reporter

A best-selling atheist author claims that Christianity not only falsely takes credit for good in the world, but actually promotes immorality.

In a recent debate against a Christian scholar and pastor, Christopher Hitchens argued against the idea that Christianity is accountable for the spreading of moral principles such as how it is wrong to murder and steal.

The author of God Is Not Great: How Religion Poisons Everything also said there was a moral code similar to the “Golden Rule” in place even before Moses received the Ten Commandments.

“It appears that these values (murder, theft, perjury are wrong and courage and self-sacrifice are admirable) are universal and innate,” said Hitchens in a video posted on the Christian Broadcasting Network news web site on Friday. “And they also predate – well I wouldn’t say they predate all religion because there has always been some kind of religion – but they certainly predate monotheism and they certainly predate Christianity.”

Hitchens believes the basis for goodness and morality is “human solidarity” or the “brotherhood of man.”

Debate opponent and Christian representative Pastor Douglas Wilson of Christ Church in Moscow, Idaho, however, challenged Hitchens’ human solidarity claim as the basis of goodness by using Hitchens’ own acknowledgment that bad emotions are also innately in humans.

“The problem with grounding it (morality) in innate instincts, like human solidarity, is that we have competing, jostling instincts,” Wilson argued.

What is stopping people from engaging in evil if there is no absolute truth about what is good and what is bad, asked the senior fellow of theology at New Saint Andrews College in Moscow, Idaho, and the author of Letter from a Christian Citizen.

The Christian debater argued that people have a side that wants to engage in what is bad, for instance exterminate neighbors, but they also have a good side that wants to help their neighbor. Without an absolute truth found in the Scripture, people will all be left with – at best – an “eeny, meeny, miny, moe,” strategy on whether to act good or bad.

“How do you choose between them,” Wilson asked. “If the authoritative nature of morality comes from this innate status, what about our innate predisposition to go to war or commit genocide?”

Atheist Hitchens in an earlier segment said he firmly does not believe there is an absolute truth but only relative truth. Yet he acknowledges there are some objective truths held by all men such as murder is bad and honesty is good.

To strengthen his argument, Hitchens highlighted how Christians in the past have claimed an absolute truth but later embarrassingly had to revise the truth because science proved them wrong.

For instance, the church said that the universe revolved around the earth, but later it was discovered that the planets orbit the sun. All Christians also believed that the Genesis account was the literal events of creation until science introduced evolution and believers had to revisit or revise what they believed was the truth.

“An objection I have to religion, in other words, is it’s our first and worst attempt to making sense of things,” Hitchens declared. “First and worst – it happened when we were very afraid, very ignorant, and when we were terrified by natural order of events like earthquakes and floods that are susceptible to a much more easier explanation.”

People in the past, he said, prayed when someone fell sick because they were ignorant and didn’t know better. But later healthcare improved when scientists and doctors learned about germs and disease.

It is the same for astronomy, the atheist scholar argued. Christians assumed too early what the true map of the universe looked like, he said.

Hitchens also said during the debate he is glad there is no Christian god because if there was, humans would be supervised by god from the moment they are born until they die and even beyond and can be “convicted” of “thought crimes.”

“It is the working definition of unfreedom,” Hitchens complained. “And so it is a great relief to me to think that I don’t have a big brother who is determined to dominate my life from dawn to dusk.”

Wilson quipped he is willing to be “brother-less,” but not “fatherless” explaining to him God is a heavenly father not merely a brother.

Another criticism of Hitchens concerned the foundational teaching of Christianity – salvation through Jesus Christ. The fervent atheist claims the teaching “robs” humans of responsibility for their sin by teaching them that they can throw their wrongdoings on someone else, a scapegoat, and be forgiven. Hitchens argues that is an immoral theology.

Wilson did not have time to respond to Hitchens’ accusation that salvation as taught in Christianity is immoral. The two scholars were participating in a debate hosted by CBN focused on the question “Is Christianity Good for the World?” Hitchens and Wilson co-authored a book together – released in this past September —that carries the same title and will be featured in a film to be released in March 2009.

Hitchens was not raised in a religious home, but his father was raised in a “strict” Baptist Calvinist home. His mother is a non-practicing Jew.

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  • Thu Jan 15, 2009 1:26 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 2

    Christianity is not bad for the world but some christians are bad for Christianity i.e. Bush.

  • Fri Jan 09, 2009 5:01 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Yes maam, she's a Texas girl, much to the chagrin of the rest of her family. LOL.

  • Fri Jan 09, 2009 12:42 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Arn I thought that was the first name of one of the 4 Horsemen?

  • Fri Jan 09, 2009 8:40 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Prophet wrote: "Arn sharpenin' arn, as my sister says."

    That's funny ~ good dialect! ;-)

  • Fri Jan 09, 2009 1:58 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    beleiver,
    Amen. Let's not get all "brother love" and everything. hahahaha.
    Seriously, I also enjoy our discussions. Arn sharpenin' arn, as my sister says.

  • Fri Jan 09, 2009 12:49 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 2

    My thoughts on the subject:
    http://wbmoore.wordpress.com/2009/01/04/who-saves-us-and-can-we-loose-our-salvation/
    http://wbmoore.wordpress.com/2009/01/02/losing-ones-salvation-and-cheap-grace/
    http://wbmoore.wordpress.com/2009/01/09/more-on-whether-one-can-loose-ones-salvation/

  • Thu Jan 08, 2009 7:57 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

    OKAY guys, let's not get all gushy now!:) Seriously, I truly enjoy fellowshipping and posting with you guys as well, be blessed as you both continue to serve Him, believer.

  • Thu Jan 08, 2009 4:28 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    Forgivensinner,

    Amen . . . O sing unto the LORD a new song; for he hath done marvellous things: his right hand, and his holy arm, hath gotten him the victory (Psalm 98:1).

  • Thu Jan 08, 2009 4:07 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

    Online wrote: "For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day (2Timothy 1:12)."

    Another verse I can't seem to get through without breaking into song. :)

  • Thu Jan 08, 2009 3:55 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 2

    Believer,

    Thanks for your patience and willingness to discuss this issue as long as you have . . . ultimately we can definitely say with absolute certainty:

    For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day (2Timothy 1:12).

    I personally enjoy having you on this site . . . stay encouraged brother.

    God bless,
    Online4Him

  • Thu Jan 08, 2009 8:35 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    forgiven, a huge AMEN to that!!

  • Thu Jan 08, 2009 8:34 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 2

    online, as I said is the ability to persevere what keeps us saved or what proves we're saved. My sense is depending on what direction we lean in this argument will determine how we answer that question. Case in point, both MacArthur and Walvoord and Zuck say that 2 Peter 2:20 does not refer to believers. But we also know they lean to the eternal security side of the issue. And the Expositor's Bible Commentary and J. Vernon McGee seem to agree with them as well. But I don't know about you and prophet, but I'm fried on this issue, but I have thoroughly enjoyed the discussion. So let's call a truce and press on to other sites and see what God has in store. You guys have a great day in serving the Lord and we'll talk soon, believer.

  • Thu Jan 08, 2009 8:25 am Agree: 3   Disagree: 0

    I think we can surmise we should never take our salvation for granted. It's gift we should always remain grateful for.

  • Wed Jan 07, 2009 11:29 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

    Believer,

    (The passage in Peter you referred to was speaking to false teachers and not true believers)


    I dont know; it seems that not everyone is unanimous about 2 Peter 2:20 and that it only refers to unbelievers:


    Adam Clarke says: But if, after having been healed, and escaped the death to which we were exposed, we get again entangled, enfolded, enveloped with them; then the latter end will be worse than the beginning: forasmuch as we shall have sinned against more light, and the soul, by its conversion to God, having had all its powers and faculties greatly improved, is now, being repolluted, more capable of iniquity than before, and can bear more expressively the image of the earthly.


    John Wesley says: For if after they: Who are thus ensnared. Have escaped the pollutions of the world: The sins which pollute all who know not God. Through the knowledge of Christ: That is, through faith in him, 2Pe_1:3. They are again entangled therein, and overcome, their last state is worse than the first: More inexcusable, and causing a greater damnation.


    Matthew Henry says: When men are once entangled, they are easily overcome; therefore should Christians keep close to the word of God, and watch against those who seek to perplex and bewilder them and that because, if men who have once escaped are again entangled, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.


    I do agree with John McArthur about this being a matter of faith . . . this is exactly what I have been proposing; as believers we choose to walk by faith/believe and I agree that Gods grace sustains us in our faith, howbeit, the question still remains . . . can a believer choose otherwise? I do not mean to press the issue but the other passages that I posted seem to suggest that they can . . . what about the other scriptural passages that I gave?


    You are right . . . this is a very difficult issue to understand . . .

  • Wed Jan 07, 2009 8:51 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 2

    prophet and online, John MacArthur in his book, "The Power And Freedom Of Forgiveness" devotes a whole chapter to the unpardonable sin question. He sums it up like this, if a person is exposed to evidence that proves to them beyond a shadow of a doubt the source of all Christ's words and works and they still choose to reject Jesus as Savior and God and they are physically in the presence of Christ as the Jewish religious leaders were, then they are beyond forgiveness, since they've become so hardened that they have made up their hearts and minds to pay no attention to the Holy Spirit. It is a deliberate rejection of Christ in full light of the Holy Spirit's testimony. The only possible question is does Christ have to be physically present for this sin to occur. But once again were discussing a very difficult issue to clearly understand.

  • Wed Jan 07, 2009 8:39 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    online, the passage in Peter you referred to was speaking to false teachers and not true believers.

  • Wed Jan 07, 2009 5:38 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    But to be honest, I haven't thought about it much. Like you, I live my life so far removed from any possible "point of no return" so that I don't have to worry about whether my salvation is in question, or whether I committed the unpardonable sin.

  • Wed Jan 07, 2009 5:26 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Like others, I believe it is attributing God's works and miracles to satan. But that's my opinion.

  • Wed Jan 07, 2009 4:48 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    prophet, so what is the unpardonable sin?

  • Wed Jan 07, 2009 4:46 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 2

    online, listen to what John McArthur says about perseverance, "The people who persevere are the same ones who are saved, not the ones whose love grows cold. God, as part of His saving work, secure's a believer's perseverance. True believers are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation. (I Peter 1:5)." Other passages that speak to this, John 10:28-29, Romans 8:38-39, I Corinthians 1:8-9, Philippians 1:6). Plus MacArthur also notes that the warnings and promises often appear side by side, for example Jude 21, keep yourselves in the love of God, he immediately points them to God, Jude 24, who is able to keep you from stumbling. The warnings and pleas are among the means God uses to secure this perseverance in that faith, the same faith that led us to become a believer in the first place. Once again it's all about faith and not works but as James says our works will show our faith. As we go on in this discussion I wonder if one's ability to persevere is not so much to keep us saved, but rather a proof of our salvation, in other words if a person is not genuinely saved he will not persevere, but if a person is genuinely saved he will persevere.

  • Wed Jan 07, 2009 4:43 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Ok. Sounds like a lot of convenient, but unscriptural, doctrine. The same way that the baptism of the Holy Ghost is explained away, and salvation by works.

  • Wed Jan 07, 2009 4:29 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 2

    prophet, as I shared earlier there are some who believe since Jesus Christ is no longer physically present it is impossible for one to commit the unpardonable sin of blaspheming the Holy Spirit and there are some who believe refusing to accept Christ as your Savior is a form of blaspheming the Holy Spirit since it is the Holy Spirit who convicts us of our need to be saved. For me I believe the only unpardonable sin is to know you need to accept Christ to be saved and you refuse to do so before you die and as a result are eternally separated from God in hell for all eternity.

  • Wed Jan 07, 2009 3:45 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Believer,
    So there is no unpardonable sin?

  • Wed Jan 07, 2009 11:53 am Agree: 2   Disagree: 0

    Consider what Paul wrote: And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled in the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister (Colossians 1:21-23). Here Paul says that there is a possibility that Christians can fall away from the Lord if they dont continue in the faith. Notice that he is talking to people that are (in the faith), meaning that they are believers in Jesus Christ . . . right?

    A similar passage talks about those that (have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ) and that they knew (the way of righteousness) 2 Peter 2:20-22; which means that they knew Jesus in a personal way but Peter goes on to say that they had (turned from) this experience and he also said that they would have been better off never to (have known the way of righteousness). That is a strong statement.

    Again, the same idea is expressed: (if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off) Romans 11:22. And again: (Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils) 1 Timothy 4:1. How can someone depart from something unless they were once there?

    It appears that a Christian can choose/turn from God and miss out on the joys of heaven. God seems to give us all the power to choose our own course. So, can a Christian choose to depart from Jesus just as sinners can choose to be saved? It is passages such as these continue to stir the debate . . .

  • Wed Jan 07, 2009 11:52 am Agree: 2   Disagree: 0

    Good morning . . . Here are a few more passages that should be considered for this discussion:

    God gave His people the freedom to choose between these two options: I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live (Deuteronomy 30:15).

    Jesus said: let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely (Revelation 22:17). Notice that He leaves the decision up to us. Gods people have had this same freedom to choose all throughout the Bible. The Lord gave the Israelites the same liberty to decide for themselves in Joshua 24:15 (And if it seem evil unto you to serve the Lord, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.)

    The Bible also describes how Lucifer was once one of the highest angels in heaven. Unfortunately, Lucifer chose to abuse the privileges that God gave him and sought to overthrow heaven itself (Isaiah 14:12-20 & Ezekiel 28:13-19).

    Lucifer chose to rebel . . . how did this happen? (Revelation 12:9)?

  • Wed Jan 07, 2009 10:50 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 2

    prophet, that's the exact reason I take the side of eternal security since no one can specifically show me what scripture teaches how to know when one has lost their salvation and God's Word would clearly spell that out considering what's at stake if a believer can and does lose their salvation. God's Word is clear on what it takes for a person to become a child of God and what it takes to live an effective Christian life and develop a close intimate relationship with our heavenly Father and yet does not specifically address how to know one has lost their salvation. Yes, there are verses that appear to teach one can lose their salvation, but none that specifically address how to know with all certainty one has lost their salvation. Plus there are verses that appear to teach that a true believer cannot lose their salvation that when we were saved we received at that very moment eternal life and if we can lose eternal life then it was never eternal life in the first place.

  • Tue Jan 06, 2009 11:13 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    True. But God knows our hearts. And is simply denying God out of fear going to lose our salvation? Or is it denying God in defiance and logic? Actually, I see no difference. The Scriptures say that even cowards will not inherit the Kingdom of God. And if denying Christ out of fear is "acceptable" before God, then the millions of martyrs who held their faith have done so in faith. True, most may have held their faith completely out of love and relationship. But I'm sure there are many who held their faith out of the thought that they would lose their salvation if they were to deny Him.
    But then those who denied Christ for fear of their life. Do they deserve a reward? But are you truly going to judge their heart and whether their salvation experience was true.
    I believe there are people who do have a authentic, repentant salvation experience. But somewhere down through time they lose that attitude, and fall away.

  • Tue Jan 06, 2009 11:08 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    believer and prophet,

    Thank you for a stimulating and interesting discussion . . . may the Lord keep you both.

    Peace

  • Tue Jan 06, 2009 10:54 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    online, many kudos to your last post and we'll see you all tomorrow, be blessed as you continue to serve Him and to you as well prophet, believer

  • Tue Jan 06, 2009 10:43 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Believer,

    As you mentioned this can and has been a subject of much debate . . . but I too do not make it a test for fellowship. This has been a very thought provoking subject that should compel us all to take our faith seriously. I do have a healthy respect for both sides as well . . . it is a blessing to study the thoughts of those who have labored so earnestly and sought to rightly divide the Word of truth. As one who finds himself in the middle of two poles I have benefitted from studying both camps. I can enjoy reading both Calvin and Wesley coming away with someone to digest.

  • Tue Jan 06, 2009 10:38 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    prophet, so you're making the assumption that all the apostles were saved at the time Jesus gave them this power, if that's true are you also saying that Peter lost his salvation when he denied Christ three times? And if that's the case then according to Hebrews 6:4-6 Peter could not be saved again. Plus once again we have no specific record to show that Judas did indeed work any miracles or cast out any demons.

  • Tue Jan 06, 2009 10:21 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Yes, we have proof. Jesus gave ALL 12 power to cast out demons. It's right in the scriptures.

  • Tue Jan 06, 2009 10:19 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    prophet, first off we have no record that Judas cast any demons out or worked any miracles, but we do have proof that he was a thief and a traitor, plus Matthew 7:22-23, says there were those who cast out demons and Jesus said He did not know them since they were not His.

  • Tue Jan 06, 2009 10:15 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 2

    online, I tend to agree about Saul and the others that I mentioned I believe most if not all had a genuine and real relationship with God and even though some did not finish well I believe they are in heaven with God, but as you said only God knows for sure. And that's why I've said from the start this issue is one of the most debated issues in the Church and if we allow it, it can become a very divisive issue and that's why I choose to not make it a point of fellowship with those who believe it is possible for one to lose their salvation and why I can also see the dangers of planting one's feet in concrete on either side of the issue, and yet I make no apology for leaning very heavily on the eternal security side and especially since I consider myself in very good company considering those who also espouse this view but I also have a high regard for some on the other side as well.

  • Tue Jan 06, 2009 10:14 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    Jesus would not have given His power to one that didn't believe. Otherwise, when Jesus said "These signs will follow them that believe..." and then proceeded to almost repeat everything he said the His disciples, that He was lying?

  • Tue Jan 06, 2009 10:12 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Believer,
    That wasn't the question. Check out my post from 9:35 pm.

  • Tue Jan 06, 2009 10:11 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Prophet,

    That is the real question: isnt it? We know that Judas was not ultimately saved . . . but was he at some point? How could the Holy Spirit utilize him in such a way without his cooperation/surrendering? Was he in a saving relationship with God at some point?

  • Tue Jan 06, 2009 10:07 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    prophet, if I want a close intimate relationship with God it requires me to confess all known sin to Him, but if I don't or if I'm not aware I have unconfessed sin it does not change my standing in Him through Christ, I'm still His child. And the same is true with others if I desire to have closeness and intimacy with them it will require me to seek their forgiveness when I sin against them. However, what's different is they might choose to not forgive me and hold it against me and totally end our relationship, but they have a sin nature and God does not.

  • Tue Jan 06, 2009 10:04 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Believer,

    It is really difficult to say with absolute certainty who did or who did not lose their salvation but I tend to think that Saul was not saved just like Judas. Saul repeatedly disobeyed the Lord and in my previous post I quoted the scripture that said, (the spirit of the Lord departed from Saul). Also, we know that he sought a familiar spirit and died as a result of this transgression:

    And Saul disguised himself, and put on other raiment, and he went, and two men with him, and they came to the woman by night: and he said, I pray thee, divine unto me by the familiar spirit, and bring me him up, whom I shall name unto thee (1 Samuel 28:7).

    So Saul died for his transgression which he committed against the LORD, even against the word of the LORD, which he kept not, and also for asking counsel of one that had a familiar spirit, to enquire of it (1 Chronicles 10:13).

    As for the others that you mentioned, there is evidence that they showed signs of repentance . . . I do not see that in Sauls case. I could be wrong . . . God who is the righteous judge will take all things into account and judge accordingly.

  • Tue Jan 06, 2009 9:52 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Believer,
    No answer?

  • Tue Jan 06, 2009 9:37 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    online, but at the same time just because Saul for lack of a better term backslid does not necessarily mean he lost his salvation. Once again this is where the verses in Corinthians come into play with regards to our works being judged at the judgement seat of Christ, even though all our works are burnt up we still have our salvation to hold on to and that alone is sufficient to save us. Plus consider some examples of people who did great things for God and then blew it, Samson, Gideon, Solomon and then those who blew it along the way, David, Abraham, Peter. So once again we must ask the question, if a person can lose their salvation what does it take and can they ever get it back and according to Hebrews 6:4-6 if one can lose their salvation then these verses clearly teach there is no going back.

  • Tue Jan 06, 2009 9:35 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    If Judas wasn't saved, then by who's authority did he cast out devils. The point has already been made that Jesus gave all twelve (which included Judas) the power to cast out spirits. Why would Jesus give an unsaved person that power?

  • Tue Jan 06, 2009 9:28 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    online, I don't believe Judas was ever saved. As for Balaam and Saul I'm not sure we can know with any certainty if they truly were believers. As for the Holy Ghost question I find no Old Testament passages that teach anyone was permanently indwelt by the Holy Spirit as we read in the New Testament, but I do agree that both David and Daniel had a continual presence of the Holy Spirit in their life.

  • Tue Jan 06, 2009 9:21 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    prophet, all sin is sin against God so all sin effects our relationship with God and requires us to seek His forgiveness in order to once again grow closer to God.

  • Tue Jan 06, 2009 8:25 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Believer,

    Lol . . . I understand your point, however, that does not give an exhaustive explanation about what happened in the lives of these individuals. So, are you saying that they never were true believers at any point . . . or were they at one time but then fell away? I know you mentioned earlier that you do not believe that God creates some in order to send them to hell . . . so how do you reconcile that with the previous examples given?

    (Plus in the Old Testament the Holy Spirit did not take up permanent residence in a person's life.)

    I dont know about that . . . what about Daniel? It was repeatedly said of him: (in whom is the spirit of the holy gods); see Daniel 4:8, 9, 18; 5:11, 14. Also, David prayed (take not thy holy spirit from me) Psalm 51:11 and getting back to Saul . . . this passages clearly says, (the spirit of the Lord departed from Saul) 1 Samuel 16:14. In regard to Saul, before the Holy Spirit departed from Saul . . . was he a true believer? How then does one explain the fact that some men found favour with God in the Old Testament, when they were unregenerate?

    I believe that the Holy Spirit had been operating in the Old Testament but did not operate in his fullness until Jesus was glorified.

  • Tue Jan 06, 2009 8:13 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    When we are saved, God forgives us for all the sins we have committed before we got saved. After that, we still need to ask for forgiveness whenever we transgress against God or man.

  • Tue Jan 06, 2009 8:12 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    You just said we need to confess our sins to God. Both sins against man, and sin against Him. Correct?

  • Tue Jan 06, 2009 7:47 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    prophet, you're absolutely right but this is where relational/parental forgiveness comes in play as opposed to legal/judicial forgiveness which allows us to be saved and become a child of God. If we want a close intimate relationship with God or anyone we must be ready and willing to both forgive and ask for forgiveness when we sin against God and anyone else.

  • Tue Jan 06, 2009 7:37 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    Forgiveness is only as good as asking for forgiveness. If you don't ask for forgiveness, then there is no repentance or regret for the sins you have committed.

  • Tue Jan 06, 2009 7:33 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    prophet, my apology it was chapter 2, plus how else can one interpret that, did Christ not die for the forgiveness of all sins?

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