MOUNT LAUREL, N.J. – A church group that owns beachfront property discriminated against a lesbian couple by not allowing them to rent the locale for their civil union ceremony, a New Jersey department ruled Monday in a case that has become a flash point in the nation's gay rights battle.
The New Jersey Division on Civil Rights said its investigation found that the refusal of the Ocean Grove Camp Meeting Association to rent the oceanfront spot to the couple for their same-sex union in March 2007 violated the public accommodation provisions of the state's Law Against Discrimination.
While the ruling is decisively in favor of the couple, Harriet Bernstein and Luisa Paster, it does not end the case. An administrative law judge still must decide on a remedy for the parties.
"What this case has always been about from my clients' perspective has been equality," said Larry Lustberg, the lawyer for the couple. He said they will seek an order that requires the pavilion to be "open to all on an equal basis."
Brian Raum, a lawyer for the Alliance Defense Fund, a Scottsdale, Ariz.-based group that represents the Methodist organization, Camp Meeting Association, said his clients would keep pushing back against being forced to allow civil unions on the property.
"Our position is the same," he said. "A Christian organization has a constitutional right to use their facilities in a way that is consistent with their beliefs."
Meanwhile, the parties in the dispute are awaiting a ruling from the 3rd U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals on whether the issue should be decided in the division on civil rights or in federal courts. A lower federal court has ruled that the state could consider the case.
The dispute has become a rallying point for both sides in the political battle over gay unions.
Supporters of gay rights say the discrimination shows that New Jersey's two-year-old civil unions law falls short of its intent to give gay couples the same legal rights as heterosexual married couples.
Earlier this month, a state commission headed by J. Frank Vespa-Papaleo, the director of the Division on Civil Rights and the author of Monday's ruling, recommended that the state allow gay couples full marriage rights.
Opponents of gay marriage cite the case as a prime example of their contention that by recognizing same-sex couples, states are interfering with religious freedoms.
"It's something we have to be careful about," said the Alliance Defense Fund's Raum. "As the rights of same-sex couples increase, the tendency is to have it conflict with the First Amendment rights of religious organizations."
RSS
This is a great post. I'm working on a documentary, would any of you be interested in doing an on-camera interview? I'm in the Los Angeles area, but can travel.
Please let me know.
Thanks.
Gr8, that's simply not true. It would then follow that children raised by a single mother have gender confusion, which is not the case. The case most certainly is that the longer children stay in foster care, the more likely they are to engage in risky sexual behaviors and substance abuse. Would you rather that than have children raised by a loving same sex couple which has been proven to not have an adverse effect on the child?
MIke, that Genesis reality gives a basis of understanding of how the family evolved, I know that sounds ridiculous to you ,Sir, but that reality has been grounded in every society as long as The Bible have been (over 6,ooo years), so this new phenomemon, shows some unwise grounds of defining two indivduals of the same gender as a family unity because both individuals have the same nature, and there will be some confusion of the masculine component.
Gr8, that's fine and dandy, but God didn't create single mothers or grandparents raising kids or even foster homes in his original design, so I think using the story of Adam and Steve (oops, freudian slip) Eve to determine what a current family should look like is a bit far fetched.
Through the act of marriage(wife and husband), the very act of union ,physically and spirtually, brings about the mathematical union of the children, which is the family.
Another thing Bryan and Mike, God was the creator of both man and woman, according to the book of Genesis, so, he is the creator of the individual and collctive component of the family, man didn't create the family, so no man can change that foundation. That is not hate, but a statement grounded in history and religion.
Mr.Bryan, the present society is teaching and undermining the basic nature of men and women. Boys need men to teach them to be natural men and then morally responsible, not to be feminine like their mothers, sisters,etc. The love and respect for women should always be part of a Man's moral compass, but a man and a woman is natural different and the roles ,they have fit their individual different natures.
"Gr8, obviously society rests on families, but homosexuality doesn't undo families. If anything, its an answer to the thousands and thousands of foster children waiting to be adopted"
DITTO!! Seriously, ask yourself deep inside: "do same-sex parents provide less of a family than straight couples do?" Because, believe you me, I've seen much more failed straight parents than I have seen failed same-sex parents.
Why must a family consist of a man and a woman? Is it because of the 100 BC mentality where women are supposed to cook and take care of the child while men are supposed to go get the butter and the bread? Today, I know gay people that can cook better than my mom, and gay nurses that can take care of children better than most females can.
So tell me, how are we ruining the family unit?
Gr8, obviously society rests on families, but homosexuality doesn't undo families. If anything, its an answer to the thousands and thousands of foster children waiting to be adopted (and there simply aren't enough heterosexual families willing to adopt them.)
Mr.Brian and Mr.Mike, there is no wrong interpretation, the Bible and history shows the fundamental development of any society and the basic foundation is the family consisting of a husband and wife. It is not the persecution of homosexuals as individuals, because the individual can be saved, but the very unnatural act comes into question, and the act is an abominible to God who is the Aythor of creation and nature, the Bible express that clearly gentlemen.
Gr8tgary38,
We are not removing God's Authority from this state. But perhaps would it be possible for us to take a few steps back and ask ourselves if we have misinterpreted God's will? Or perhaps sometimes we are too proud to do so?
Is it truly God's will for homosexuals to be persecuted?
And nobody is erasing those principles, that's not what happened here.
This country's history is embedded in the tradition that God was with the country from the beginning, so Mike, you can't eradicate biblical, moral principles from the society because the society still have a vest interested in the God of the scriptures. Those scriptures taught the American people of this God.
Also, this society still recognize a Supreme Creator which is in its Pledge of Allegiance and on its currency, so the government doing this, recognize the source of the authority that it has, and the responsibilty in respecting not only the individuals( whether same-sex oriented or not) but the institutions that respect the govenment ,but also the Final Author of the Authority GOD.
OK, the will of the society (AKA the law) was violated by this church, and now there's a lawsuit agains them.
No true church would go against the will of any civilize society,for the bible in first timothy 2:1-2, "Therefore I exhort, first of all that supplications, prayers, intercessions, nad giving of thanks be made for all men. For kings and all who are in authority that we may lead a quiet and peaceful life in all godliness and reverence." God ordained all believers to respect authority, because the ultimate authority comes from the Lord God himself.
OK, so then could the federal government arrest church leaders who decide to sell alcohol to minors on their private property if they decide it is God's will? The first amendment does not make churches infallible, and this church went against public law.
See, Mike, the first amendment is so embedded in this society that you can't deny the church's right to act legally in matters concerning public property and the conduct within its property peramiteers.
Mike,
At this point of the issue I will accept the opinion from a professional law firm that specializes in religious freedoms. It is not clear cut as you portray it to be. Ocean Grove does appear to be completely privatized under 501(C)(3) according to the IRS, ADF and Ocean Grove. The outcome of the federal case will put this issue to rest.
Then Ocean Grove needs to completely privatize, which they have not done! They take public money, the property becomes public (just like hospitals that refuse to give morning after pills lose federal funding.)
Mike,
I am not fabricating a story but using the information at hand. Thank you for this latest information and it does make the situation more interesting. But I believe your story is misrepresenting the whole truth. The "public funds" were emergency relief money provided to make repairs to hurricane damages which puts this into another consideration. ADF does not concur with your conclusion. The facilities are still owned and operated by a church and protected by the 1st amendment.
Talking with the representative at ADF this morning he says the story you provided is half truth and that this is still a clear case of a 1st Amendment violation by an administrative body. The federal lawsuit they filed in 2007 is still valid and in action regardless of what a NJ administrative body determines. It will be interesting when this reaches a real court of law. The ADF is too professional to take a weak case and they have a very successful track record for protecting religious freedom.
ABOUT Ocean Grove Camp Meeting Association v. Vespa-Papaleo
- This federal lawsuit was filed to protect the constitutional rights of a private religious organization to
practice its faith without threat of retribution from the state.
- The New Jersey Division on Civil Rights launched an unconstitutional investigation that carries the
threat of prosecution against a Christian organization, Ocean Grove Camp Meeting Association.
- In accordance with its deeply held religious beliefs and its mission, OGCMA declined to host a samesex "civil union" ceremony at one of its worship facilities.
- The religious association has the right to use its own private property for purposes consistent with its
mission.
- OGCMA is a religious non-profit corporation formed in 1869 to promote Christian spiritual birth, growth, and renewal through worship, education, and cultural and recreational programs in a
Christian seaside setting. Ocean Grove's site has hosted church and worship services for more than 100 years.
CURRENT STATUS of Ocean Grove Camp Meeting Association v. Vespa-Papaleo
ADF attorneys filed a federal civil rights lawsuit on August 11 in the U.S. District Court for the District of New Jersey in response to the state of New Jersey's investigation of a complaint from a same-sex
couple that demanded to use OGCMA's private worship facility for a "civil union" ceremony.
FOCUS OF LAWSUIT - WHAT IS AT STAKE?
The government cannot force a private religious organization to use its property in a way that would violate its own religious beliefs. The state of New Jersey is applying its Law Against Discrimination in a manner that interferes with OGCMA's First Amendment rights to free speech, free association, and free exercise of religion.
If this country recognize a Christian heritage,Mike, then, the Methodist does have a right to monitor their property according to what they were taught,which centers on that historical Christian hertiage, and the Bible plays a whole part of that.
What I am saying is grounded in fact, not emotion.
Thank you for your last comment Mike, it is good to get a variey of opinions on this matter, hopefully though you may see every other view that is expressed is grounded into something more than emotionalism, but in something which in righteous example.
You are fabricating a story so you can continue to play martyr:
"A local advocacy group, "Ocean Grove United"[19], disputes this, contending that the issue involves public, not religious, property.[20] They contend that the beach and Boardwalk Pavilion are open to the public and that the Camp Meeting Association has accepted public funds for their maintenance and repairs. They also cite the Association's application to the State of New Jersey for monies under the state's "Green Acres Program", which encourages the use of private property for public recreation and provides a $500,000 annual property tax exemption. In their application for these funds, the Camp Meeting Association reportedly stated that the disputed areas were open to the public. U.S. Representative Frank Pallone, Jr. (Democrat), in whose Congressional district Ocean Grove is located, stated "they've taken state, federal and local funds by representing that they are open to the public."
Once they took public funds, they lost the ability to privately choose who to rent the property to and who not to. That is state law. If they didn't want to get into this whole mess, they should have remained private. It is not private property, and the state is not forcing anything on them. It is very common knowledge that accepting public funds for maintenance requires you to be a public group.
Mike,
The Ocean Grove Camp Meeting Association is a 100% bonifide Christian 501(c)3 operation just as any regular church. This whole camp is Christian and religious. The state has no right forcing its views onto the operation and use of the church; what NJ is doing is breaching the first amendment.
http://www.guidestar.org/
Who We Are
Since 1869 the OGCMA has offered a wholesome christian vacation spot on the New Jersey shore, with religious services, seminars, retreat center and youth programs as well as a headline entertainment and a non-commercial beach and boardwalk.
This organization is a 501(c)(3) Public Charity.
This organization is not required to file an annual return with the IRS because it is a church.
NTEE Code
X99-Religion Related, Spiritual Development N.E.C.
X20-Christian
X11-Single Organization Support
MISSION AND PROGRAMS
Mission
The mission of the Ocean Grove Camp Meeting Association, rooted in its Methodist heritage, is to provide opportunities for spiritual birth, growth and renewal through worship, education, cultural and recreational programs for persons of all ages in a Christian seaside setting.
Programs
Now & Forever Fund: Your unrestricted gift allows us to use your support in an area of ministry where the need is greatest - worship, youth ministry, evangelism, music, buildings, or operations. We also have The Camp Meeting's Annual Fund For Program Support which include Special Ministries' Youth Ministry Bible Hour Sunday Morning Worship Sunday Evening Worship Camp Meeting Week Capital & Facility Needs Gospel Musical Ministry
Mike,
The state is forcing it's positive law desires on the Ocean Grove Camp Meeting Association and forcing the use of their private property against their religious belief. This is considered 'takings' and is a form of facism, actually. Facism is not too unlike Marxism except with private ownership under govt control Vs govt ownership. Along with ADF, I contend the law is unconstitutional.
I am curious about your claim for public Vs private use; where can I find that information you site?
Did the same sex union nondiscrimination belong in the law when the church group first bought the property, or was this a new provision since the church owned the property? It appears the church group bought the property around 1872 and I doubt at that time the state was forcing its ungodly design onto private property owners. The ungodly provision is of recent origin, is it not?
The real and true issue is the march of increased Facism/Marxism and growth of the state at the expense of private liberties. Just compare; in 1872 the state didn't force this stuff onto private property use now look at what the power of the state is doing.
Hawk, NOTHING has been forced on this church. You much these intense martyr allegations without knowing all the facts! The church had the option to rent privately or publicly, and they decided to rent publicly. According to that town law, once you rent publicly, you may not discriminate, regardless of your religious affiliation. If they didn't want to open up that can of worms, they should have stayed private, which they did not.
mike,
I believe you just reinforced my point. You said "My dad's company is private, therefore, they can honor certain holidays, hire certain people, and report their money investments in certain ways." You're dad is allowed to use his private property as he determines is proper. The NJ case involves the state forcing the use of private property contrary to the owners choice and liberty. This case has nothing to do with public safety. I suppose you should make your case clearer why it is Biblically proper for the state to intervene and force owners how to use their private property contrary to Biblical doctrine and conscience.
The NJ case illustrates the march of Marxism in the US where the state makes and enforces positive law Vs natural law and ends up destroying the rights and liberties of individuals and private organizations. This is called 'interventionism' which allows the state's power to subvert the sovereignty of peoples liberties and use of their private property.
At first glance, communism may look like the fairer system, and Christianity the more selfish. In fact, of course, communism and its blood-brother, fascism, have been responsible-in Asia, Europe, Africa and South America-for more human misery over the past century than any other systems of belief thought up by man. By denying human beings their individuality, all totalitarian systems brutalise the human condition, reducing everyone in their sway to the status of ants, or cogs in a machine." http://www.worldmag.com/articles/13439?CFID=8308263&CFTOKEN=34331219
HAWK, there is a clear difference between property ownership laws and the laws of private companies. My dad's company is private, therefore, they can honor certain holidays, hire certain people, and report their money investments in certain ways. The building they are in is private property, however, it is still under the jurisdiction of the city, and if they were to break city law, they would be taken down. Same issue here. There is a clear line that you are ignoring to make your point.
Who just flagger slacker? His attack was on me, and I was not offended. Can't we discuss almost anything here? Come on, folks.....
What do you mean "this time?" If you've asked me directly before, I did not know it. Just remind me, if I miss a question, please.
I suppose you are referring to my response to this:
"Actually you should look up and read some of Jefferson's writings, it is a far fetch to call them "enlightment principles" they were full blown christians but your new age movement has totally changed that to make the country believe in something different..."
I did read Mr. Jefferson's views (most of them) while I was a student at his University in the 1960s. He was certainly no "full blown" Christian. He was a deist. And his and other founders' principles were right out of John Locke and the Enlightenment.
My writing that your remark "petered out" must have been my opinion your use of the tired, old (and inappropriate in this context) retread "new age." I have no interest in "new age" formulations. That was a canard.
Mike;
What if we take your argument one or two steps further. What if the state gives us ENDA; will churches then be forced to hire gays, lesbians and transvestites even though that is against the churches doctrine? What about hate speech; will certain teachings of the Bible become criminal when taught from the pulpit or in
Sunday School classes?
mtg;
Sorry this concerns you. It's an aside as I see the power of the state dominating more and more as the authority of the state grows and engulfs the sovereignty of other entities such as family, church and private industry.
mike; we've established that the church owns the property. Do they pay property taxes for the parcel? If they do then the property is for commercial/community use and if they don't then the state needs to keep out as this is God's domain. This concept of sphere sovereignty is a hard concept to understand in this day and age when the state has become the false idol of salvation and the independent rights and authority of the church are not taught and are under attack.
The capture of Manuel Noriega could be a good example. He escaped to the Holy See's embassy in Panama and the US troops honored the sovereign right of that property by not invading it. Instead, they waited outside playing rock n roll music until it drove Noriega nuts and he surrendered.
Mike is right about that one.
Thanks, prophet for the answer, I thought you had made the comment to correct my point of view. I welcome all corrective help as long as it IS corrective as I do make mistakes but my desire is to hold to a true representation of Biblical truth. It is easy for me to have tunnel vision and I learn from many Christians here on the post.
By the way on the other post regarding the "s" that is sometimes put in the word Revelation is really an important distinction; the book is called The Revelation of Jesus Christ rather than revelations of end time events; using the "s' puts the focus on the events, rather than on Jesus Christ, which is really what the book is about. A bit of a pet peeve of mine. :D
Hawk, should a church be able to open a bar and serve 18+ alcohol if its on their private property? There are certain civil laws that churches do indeed need to abide by, and this particular piece of property had very specific laws from the town. Its not like we're talking about an actual church building: it was a property they owned specifically to rent, and therefore it was a for-profit property which fell under the jurisdiction of the town.
Absolute power corrupts absolutely.
Why is this boilerplate aphorism tossed in here? It serves no useful purpose.
Delight,
My apologies. For some reason I never saw your question. I think because my post wasn't disputing yours, it was more of an observation. So I wasn't looking for a response to it. LOL. I apologize. But that is a curious question. In John 10, Jesus said
34Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
35If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
Now, we can all agree that we are not true gods in the sense that we are deity. But many theologians believe that the word "gods" can be translated as "magistrate" or "judge".
Mike,
I would suggest the ordinance is unConstitutioanl as it infringes on private property along with the long held tradition of God's property which the state did not cross over.
"A Christian organization has a constitutional right to use their facilities in a way that is consistent with their beliefs."
Absolute power corrupts absolutely
DP, you clearly do not understand what happened! The church had a specific type of property that the town said any private organization could not discriminate (it had to be all or nothing.) The church chose to be selective (meaning they let some people who were not church goers rent, but not others,) and now they are facing the consequences. This infringes on nothing. The church, not the gay couple, made an oops.
"You are trying to justify your beliefs by criminalizing the gay community."
I believe it was the gay community which is criminalizing the beliefs of this church...thus the lawsuit. It is part of the pro-gay agenda (which you deny) to criminalize Biblical beliefs by the church.
"Church and state means that the state can't tell the church what to believe, "
The church believes it is wrong to rent their property for gay unions. You say the state isn't to tell the church what to believe. Problem solved. No renting to gays.
iff;
Spend the time and read Kuyper and Basiat, it will be well worth your while to understand govt and sphere sovereignty.
Romans 13 is usually interpreted as government maintaining a limited role of protecting innocent citizens from evil persons whether an invading enemy or from evil citizens within. Being an agent of God the definitions of good and evil are quite clear in order to carry out God's will; but limited to a policing agent and not much more. The rest is left to individuals and the church to run society.
Since socialism (& Marxism) is contrary to God's will the use of Acts by socialists is an abomination.
London journalist Richard Spencer put it well two years ago in The Telegraph: "Christianity and communism are fundamentally incompatible-one a spiritual creed, the other materialist. Christianity lays down that a man's responsibility to his neighbour is personal, a matter for his individual conscience, while communism decrees that all duties are collective, to be enforced by the state."
Spencer noted, "At first glance, communism may look like the fairer system, and Christianity the more selfish. In fact, of course, communism and its blood-brother, fascism, have been responsible-in Asia, Europe, Africa and South America-for more human misery over the past century than any other systems of belief thought up by man. By denying human beings their individuality, all totalitarian systems brutalise the human condition, reducing everyone in their sway to the status of ants, or cogs in a machine." http://www.worldmag.com/articles/13439?CFID=8308263&CFTOKEN=34331219
mtg;
you're welcome. In your searching I would suggest you also read John Eidsmoe, ME Bradford and David Barton for the Christian worldview perspective.
Bradford points out that there are from 150-200 individuals identified as our founding fathers, yet the secularists only focus on 4 or 5 such as Franklin, Jefferson, Paine, etc. But Bradford documents that all the others are solid Christians; about 95 -96% of the founding fathers.
Thanks, HAWK, for the reply beginning "I agree that most Americans are miseducated about our history."
It is very interesting, and it sent me looking for facts in several directions. It was much more effective than slacker's reply, which petered out into somthing about new age movement or somesuch that I can't really remember because it was so inane..
Prophet,
No answer to my question regarding your curious post to me about Jesus condemning sin when I spoke about Christians judging sin? I hope you were not just trying to find fault where there wasn't any. If you were making a point, please make it.
We are not criminalizing homosexuality. Only you would say that. But we don't want to allow gay marriages. Big difference.
Town laws are under the same jurisdiction as federal. Local governments cannot infringe upon the religious freedoms.
Church and state means that the state can't tell the church what to believe, and the church cannot force the state to hold certain beliefs. If a town has certain laws, then the church is bound to follow them. This is not a church/state issue. You are trying to justify your beliefs by criminalizing the gay community.
Hawk: Thank you very much for your response. While I checked out the two links - I didn't read either one of them thoroughly given their length. I did go back and reread Romans 13 as I didn't remember specifically what it said and I'm surprised you suggested Acts as neither one of those recomendations is very supportive of your position. Acts is often cited by socialists in support of their position and the chapter in Romans really didn't support what you were saying either. Do you have other scripture perhaps that might support your argument?
"The town had an ordinance"
Separation of church and state there Mike. You can't have it both ways. You can't tell the church what to do and then tell them they have to keep their mouths shut about other things.
It was the gays that came out against the Mormon church screaming separation and now you don't want it. Gays seem to be making up the rules as they go along.
ID, this is not an attack on any amendment rights, you're out of your mind! The town had an ordinance, the church violated it. The church overstepped its bounds, stop crying about it!
Hey Believer,
I think Discipledokie's question was more in the realm of the rhetorical as our discussion ran along the lines of judging (defining) sin and the what effect pointing out sin would have on an unbeliever.
I answered that it would make a person a respectable pagan and I'll add here...IF someone could stop sinning by knowing the law, it would in no way allieviate the price of his past sin.
But nonetheless, it's a good discussion for those who haven't studied Romans chapters 6,7,8.
Prophet;
Regarding your comment to me that Jesus condemns sin has not been answered. We're you correcting me on my post or pointing to a distinction without a difference? I still believe that we as Christians need to judge sin; and I see no evidence nor purpose in Scripture for us condemning sin. Isn't that what Christ does as the Ultimate Judge? And, I see a difference between the judgment and condemnation. Please clarify. Thanks.
dokie, people in the Old Testament were not saved by obeying the law, they were saved by putting their faith/trust in God's promise to send a Messiah and they demonstrated this by the keeping of the law to the best of their ability.
dokie, the law was never meant to save anyone as Paul clearly stated but rather to show the people their need for a Savior, plus if the law could save why did God from the very time Adam and Eve sinned promise to send a Savior. All the sacrificial laws and practices we're pointing to the person and work of the Promised Messiah and once Christ went to the Cross those practices and laws were no longer necessary because the promise of God had been fulfilled in the person and work of His Son, Jesus Christ.
disciple,
But in the OT, non-Israelis could become Jewish through circumcision.
There is a new covenant. The covenant of the law was given to Moses for Israel. At this time God did not work with any other people and non but Israel was included in the covenant. This covenant basically stated obey my law and inherit eternal life in heaven. But the law was found to be inaffective even after 1500 yrs because of our understanding and our inability to judge the law rightly the jewish people crucified there own christ. a new and better covenant has been made. It was prophecied by Isaiah and states. In that day "I will take my people and I will put my word in their mind and in their hearts. They will be my people and I will be their god" This prophecy and this covenant was fullfilled by the death and resurection of Jesus and the form of the christian religion and is confirmed by the apostle Paul. If there is a new covenant then the old covenant is of no effect. How Jesus fullfills this new covenant is also the good news message that we are supposed to be spredding. God is no longer waitng for us to come to him he is comming to get us. ( the christian religion is the only religion that asks everyone to join them and come to jesus, thus God is crying to us to here his voice.) He will put his word in our mind and in our hearts. ( the teachings of jesus makes us a new person and we will think different which makes us not sin because we no longer have the desire to. Jesus forgives sin so that we can come to him uninhibited. Salvation is a gift and god is doing it. Christianity has become a form of judaism which already voices the law so what is different. Jesus is the new covenant and it is time his gospel was revived. The law is of the flesh and the weekness of the flesh made it impossible. Christ is of the spirit and thru the spirit the law is fullfilled thus there is no use for the law.
Disciple,
I'm glad we came to an agreement on this very important issue. I've read some of your posts and I see that you do address sin where appropriate. My ministry is inside the Church as that is where I see the need to exhort and encourage and on a few occasions, unfortunately, to rebuke. These times are troubling and I see many Christians compromising on biblical doctrine as the recent CP stories on Pew Polling indicate. My fear is that the gate is narrower than most Christians believe and it has become too difficult for some to enter in that way, so they begin to compromise the truth.
You've asked, "If a man heard the law and managed to stop his sin Yet never comes to Jesus. Is he saved." well, IF he could obey the law without Jesus, I would say the most he can be is a respectable pagan? No?
Keep up the good fight and run the race for your reward.
PS I would still like to hear Prophet's answer from the idea he offered in his recent post.
If a man heard the law and managed to stop his sin Yet never comes to Jesus. Is he saved.
Hello Delight,
I think we are close. I agree with everything you just said. You ask how do we know who to minister to. You call to everyone to come to jesus and then you minister to everyone who comes. I have very much enjoyed this conversation and I will go on calling sheep and together I think we both benefit the church me outside and you inside. Even with our ministries being a bit different I can tell God is working a great work in you. God Bless you and keep you.
your brother in Christ
Tom
Prophet,
Yes, Jesus condemns sin but are we, too as well and for what purpose? I can't even persuade some Christians here that we are to judge sin...let alone condemn! Are you able to add more to the thought where I seem to missing it with Disciple regarding this area. Thanks.
Delight,
Jesus condemned sin.
"2For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh..." Romans 8
So, in all actuality, it isn't politically correct to be politically correct.... How wonderful!
Hello Disciple,
We may be getting closer on our viewpoints. Consider this:
Meaning of judgment: the ability to judge, make a decision, or form an opinion objectively, authoritatively, and wisely, esp. in matters affecting action; good sense; discretion: a man of sound judgment.
Meaning of condemn:to pronounce to be guilty; sentence to punishment: to condemn a murderer to life imprisonment.
There is a difference in judging sin and condemning sin as you can see by these two definitions. I can sentence no one to punishment but I can make a decision and have discretion in judgment.
Nowhere do I say to condemn sin, it is not my place, but I can judge sin, and I should. As far as your take on the parable of the plank and the speck, I believe you are incorrect in assuming we cannot judge if we have any kind of sin, no one is sinless, so there would be no parable because no one would be able to judge. The beam, plank or speck is of the same wood, in my view, in that if you commit the same sin you are judging in someone, then you are in error. Key is to remove the plank to see clearly. The parable is saying not to judge hypocritically but to judge righteous judgement.
Was it not your own sinful condition that drove you to the foot of the cross?
"If I start yelling and chastising the sheep.." It is not necessary to yell to chastise and to put these words to it in exaggeration to help you make your point.
To "minister" to the sheep is to help them see a need for the remission of their sin, much as John the Baptist did to show the way to Christ, Mark 1:4 "John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins." John was very direct in his appeal.
As far as the original context of our conversation, we are talking about someone who claims to be inside the Church who is ardently defending his sin, in which case we can surely judge the sin as in 1 Cor 5:1-12. The problem with the Church today is that it has been secularized and steeped in cultural relativism, where we are afraid of alienating the world and being seen as intolerant. Jesus was not tolerant of sin and if we live by His example, the world will hate us when we do not tolerate sin, either.
The bottom line here in my view is that the Lord draws us to Him by softening our hearts to see our need for Him, a contrite heart will not deny sin when it is pointed out, but seek forgiveness for it through Christ. John 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day."
How can we tell who we are to minister to? Someone who has a contrite heart that God has already begun a work. I will argue no one into the Kingdom if his heart is hard, God has not drawn him and if I minister to him, I minister in the flesh to an unrepentant heart and have no result. It is vital the church define what sin is but we have no authority to condemn one who sins. Are we getting any closer?
iff,
You'll find some of it in Romans 13 and in Acts. But for a full explanation I will direct you to Abraham Kuyper and his topical discussion on sphere sovereignty:
http://www.lgmarshall.org/Reformed/kuyper_lecturescalvinism.html#lecture1
and to Frederick Bastiat and his topical discussion entitled The Law:
http://bastiat.org/en/the_law.html#SECTION_G1790
DP,
Yes, PC contains its own set of ethics which are opposed to Christian ethics. PC is a definite agenda and is another term for cultural Marxism as derived out of the Frankfurt School. PC has given us multicultural diversity, tolerance, feminism and matriarchial hierarchy, make love not war, homosexual rights, anti-capitalism and anti-Christian propaganda. The story is fascinating and you'll find a summary of it here:
http://www.freecongress.org/centers/cc/index.aspx
"The Marxists are running amok with their political correctness!!!! "
Here's a question. It seems to me that political correctness is an attempt to legislate a morality is it not?
"I plan on making a note in my journal of your story... "
Not a problem. Just credit it "From the writings of Daniel Paul. Used by Permission."
"Jefferson's writings"
Most people don't know there were actually 2 Thomas Jeffersons who did writing. In fact, it was a supporter of complete separation which confirmed that to me! This is why sometimes it looks like "Thomas Jefferson" contradicted himself.
Not surprisingly, this is an attack on the First Amendment by the state of New Jersey. Religious freedom has never been more in jeopardy in America. We must, sadly, push back at the culture which keeps pushing us to conform to the ungodly acts of a perverted society.
Hawk said: "And where do you determine the job of government is derived Vs the job of church? The Bible is quite clear on their respective responsibilities which was the basis for this nation up to about the 1950s."
Cite the scripture and cite the sources.
slacker: You shouldn't read just "some" of Jefferson's writings, you should read most or all of them and you would see what you say is false.
To Daniel:
"She made her life in the image of her faith instead of making her faith in the image of her life."
this sums it up for me... I agree with this 100% and I plan on making a note in my journal of your story...
mtg;
I agree that most Americans are miseducated about our history via historic revisionism from very poor scholarship such as found in Kramnick's and Moore's sourceless diatribe. Most founding fathers were solid Christians and some weak Christians such as Franklin and Jefferson. Which ones do you consider deists and atheists? It is remarkable how many of the founding fathers talked about how solidly grounded our Constitution was built upon the principles of Christianity. Modern scholarship supports the founders claim. The Bible was referenced 34% of the time as the instrument for Constitutional principals. The works of Montesque, Blackstone and Locke amounted to about 18%, yet these were based on Biblical principles themselves.
But it is also true that The U. S. Constitution's lack of a Christian designation had little to do with a radical secular agenda. Indeed, it had little to do with religion at all. The Constitution was silent on the subject of God and religion because there was a consensus that, despite the framer's personal beliefs, religion was a matter best left to the individual citizens and their respective state governments (and most states in the founding era retained some form of religious establishment). The Constitution, in short, can be fairly characterized as "godless" or secular only insofar as it deferred to the states on all matters regarding religion and devotion to God. At that time it was the states that had the power Vs a central government. Most every state's Constitution begins by acknowledging Almighty God.
Relationships between religion and civil government were defined in most state constitutions, and the framers believed it would be inappropriate for the federal government to encroach upon or usurp state jurisdiction in this area. State and local governments, not the federal regime, it must be emphasized, were the basic and vital political units of the day. Thus, it was fitting that the people expressed religious preferences and affiliations through state and local charters.
"These founding fathers were culturally Christian. Many were deists, some were atheists, but the accepted norm was to open with a "nod to God," so to speak. Some of the founders were quite fundamentalist, but they knew they were founding a secular nation, based on Enlightenment principles. Modern Americans are so ignorant of our history, most of us."
Actually you should look up and read some of Jefferson's writings, it is a far fetch to call them "enlightment principles" they were full blown christians but your new age movement has totally changed that to make the country believe in something different...
Hi delight,
Jesus did not come to distroy. Jesus came that the world might be saved thru him. I have been in prayer today for the best way to answer you. I do not condone sin, nor do I turn a blind eye to it. That would be as if I approved which could lead others to believe it is ok to sin, God forebid, but I do not condem the sinner. What the law says is sin is still sin, and I know that no sinner will get into heaven. But, our mission is to spred the gospel of christ. We are save by grace in hope of righteousness thru Jesus. Salvation comes only thru him by the hearing of the word that will set us free from the desire to sin as the holy Spirit gives us understanding. Now as for the parable you referred to. The mote and the beam represent different kinds of sin but jesus is saying they are equil, so in essence he is saying how can you condem your brother for his sin when you yourself are sinning. To continue; first cast out the beam in thy own eye then you will see clearly to take out the mote out of your brothers eye. Meaning; when you have figured out how to remove your sin then you will know how to help your brother remove his sin, which comes only thru jesus.
As for Pauls judgement he says do not judge those outside the church but to those who have been baptised into the church we are obligated to keep them from coruption for their own good and the good of the church. If he will not repent of his sin then we are to stop fellowship with him and he can not represent the church. This way others will not think the church condones sin.
It is your right to protect your family and your church family from the influence of evil.
Look, I am not saying to bury your head in the sand like you dont know what sin is. The law is pretty specific about what sin is and it is still sin, but by the law jesus was crucified, the apostles were also found guilty and put to death and still today the law condems and keeps people from finding salvation. The law requires one to deny the desires of the flesh and go against his own nature which no one has been able to do. It is the covenant to the Jews and unless you are jewish the law has no effect if you obay or you do not obay. Only thru jesus can the rest of us be included in the promises of God The law is of the flesh but jesus fullfills the law by spirit. Spirit is the way a person thinks and jesus shows us understanding that will cause us to not sin naturally.
Now you asked me to justify why I do not judge. Besides what I have already said I can only add this. I am a gatherer of lost sheep and If I start yelling and chastising the sheep he will run off and may not be found again but if I minister to the sheep then maybe I can get him to the shephard who will make him well and keep him. I do not expect you to agree with me, but I will pray that the truth will be shown and we will eventually come into agreement.
To the rest of you I am sorry this is so far from the original story.
These founding fathers were culturally Christian. Many were deists, some were atheists, but the accepted norm was to open with a "nod to God," so to speak. Some of the founders were quite fundamentalist, but they knew they were founding a secular nation, based on Enlightenment principles. Modern Americans are so ignorant of our history, most of us.
mtg;
And where do you determine the job of government is derived Vs the job of church? The Bible is quite clear on their respective responsibilities which was the basis for this nation up to about the 1950s. What source do you use?
If you site the NJ Constitution then how do you get around the preamble to said constitution?
We, the people of the State of New Jersey, grateful to Almighty God for the civil and religious liberty which He hath so long permitted us to enjoy, and looking to Him for a blessing upon our endeavors to secure and transmit the same unimpaired to succeeding generations, do ordain and establish this Constitution.....
The Marxists are running amok with their political correctness!!!!
The more I think about the same-sex marriage issue, the more I realize that churches should not be doing job of the government. Here is a sensible article from Oregon: http://www.dailytidings.com/2009/0105/stories/0105_marriage.php
If we could see clearly, we could get to a point at which Saddleback Church, for instance, would not perform gay marriages, and First Congregational Church of Ashland would.
Disciple....
The Lord Jesus Christ came to destroy the works of the devil, not to forgive the works of the devil.
There is a distinction here that you may want to consider when it comes to judging sin.
mikey,
i am praying for your salvation too. and that God will deliver you from your sinful lifestyle before it's too late.
Disciple, Continued from last post...
Another picture that the Church is indeed to judge sin is given by Paul in 1 Corinthians 5:1-12. The story of the man in church who has an affair with his father's wife;
"But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner--not even to eat with such a person."
That's judgment of sin from Paul's instruction to the Church, he did not like them glorying in their liberal acceptance of this man's sin:
"1 Cor 5:6 "Your glorying is not good. Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump?"
The mention here of leaven that grows shows us we must be our brother's keeper and keep him accountable for his unconfessed, unrepented of sin because the Church, as a whole will look at this man's sin and say, if he can sin, I can sin as well.
James 5:19-20" My brethren, if any among you strays from the truth and one turns him back,
let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins."
It takes judging sin to do this...do you NOT care that your brothers' sinning and turning away from God? As a Christian would you let him continue in sin and keep your mouth shut? What virtuue your silence, what love for your brother if you allow him to fall away because you refuse to join with God and call people to repentance.
There is nothing new in your liberal view; Paul told us there would be a falling away from the faith in the last days (Read 2 Thess chapter 2) and it starts with false liberal doctrine, just the kind you evidently believe. Do not be decieved, brother.
Disciple,
You have been liberally churched if you believe Christians are not to judge sin. If your statement were true; WE WOULD BE WORKING AGAINST the Holy Spirit who convicts the world of sin, if we demur on judging sin.
If you follow down in your scripture for Matthew 7:1 and onto verse 6, you would see that there must be judgment in order to obey this commandment; how else to know if you're casting pearls and to whom? This statement is telling us not have a spirit of carping criticism, it is not an admonishment not to judge sin, but to be righteous in our judgment. The speck vs. plank. I have no speck of homosexuality in my eye, I can judge the sin of homosexuality.
John 3:17; At the first coming Jesus saves but the second comming Jesus judges those who refuse His offer of salvation. Please remember that repentance leads to salvation, there is no salvation without repentance.
About your Galations example, have you read the whole book, it speaks about false teachers and gullible Christians believing false gospels. How are we to know false gospels, false doctrines, false apolstles, teachers and prophets...or false christs if we refuse to judge!
What is your stand for not judging sin...to be nice? Or, do you not judge sin to be a friend of the world? Then heed James words in chapter 4 vs 4; "Adulterers and adulteresses! Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Whoever therefore wants to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God."
You do no service for the gospel of Christ by not judging the sin, hiding your light under a basket and losing your saltiness to be agreeable to the world with a false idea of what love is...you are either a friend to the world which puts you in a bad spot with God or you are a friend of Christ's in which case the world will hate you. You make the choice, but do not condone sin to be nice to sinners in need of repentance. YOU will become the stumbling block to those sinners in need of repentance, if you refuse to judge sin.
Jester, rather than delete your posts, I'll leave them up so everyone can see how truly miserable you are and hopefully pray that you'll truly come to Christ. I apologize if I misread people's posts :) Have a great week!
Delight
God bless you and thank you for your post. I appriciatethe way you have answered and pretty much agreewith everything youve said except your statement on judgement. You have taken your quote out of context. Jesus was justifying wether healing on the sabbath was breaking the law. I feel you are a churched christian and knowledgable in sscripture, so I will appeal to that.
matt. 7:1 judge not lest you be judged
john 3:17 Gos did not send his son to judge the world, but that the world should be saved thru him
ephesians 2:8 for by grace you have been saved through faith and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of god for we are his workmanship created in Christ jesus.
galatians 5:4 you have been severed from christ, you who are seeking to bejustified by law; you have fallen from grace.
there are many many more. Im not saying it is godly to sin, neither am i saying that the law is not sin, But we can not save an individual only the word can save them and if any sinner is looking to learn about christ and his teachings then I will tell you that he will be cleansed by the word and christ jesus will release him from his bondage to sin. and each of his sins will dissappear as the holy spirit gives them understanding.
Thank god for us who have overcome our life experiences. now let others find jesus who will help them overcome theirs.
"John: Mike is right, you are using specific words to incite and I'm sorry that you can't see that and I'm sorry no other Christian here (other than discipledokie & Mike it seems) is willing to point that out"
i see that mike and ifeelfine don't like tasting their own medicine. or maybe they don't like other people using their tactics.
"Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man" (1Co 11:9).
If one's life experiences forms a belief that God created some men for other men (homosexual activity), then such a one has been deceived, it is a belief molded in falsity and not in truth. Will you receive truth today?
John: Mike is right, you are using specific words to incite and I'm sorry that you can't see that and I'm sorry no other Christian here (other than discipledokie & Mike it seems) is willing to point that out
DelightntheLord - I accidentally flagged your post from last night (and while it may have been questionable, I just meant to give it a thumbs down). I'm sorry about that.
Mike22685,
I really am sorry. You're words caused me to reflect within (and have from to time to time) ~ I really was commenting on my own reflection.
ooooohhhhh. poor mikey. everyone's out to get him. ITS A CONSPIRACY!
ThomasofDoubt: Great post.
"For me, I am grateful and thankful "
Mike...he posted what you said and then posted "For me". I don't see anywhere that he is twisting anything you said and neither am I. We're just saying there are two ways to look at things.
"That is fact."
The fact is that you missed my point completely!!! You can either allow your faith to shape your life or your faith will be shaped by your life.
Mike 22685 wrote: "OK, I think you are grossly twisting my point."
I am quite sorry that you have taken my statement as a purposed twist of your point. While you use your life experience as a means to come to conclusion about yourself, I have not been afforded such a luxury.
I wrote from my heart; a reflection on me and not you!
OK, I think you are grossly twisting my point. EVERYONE has their lives shaped by their life experiences. Those experiences shape how we come to understand life around us. That is fact. God does not make us forget those experiences, but can certainly help us deal with them or come to understand their place in our life. I think it is quite ignorant to deny me my life experiences and act as if God can't use me the way I am and preach until you are blue in the face, but never once stop to listen without frantically trying to twist my words.
"I am grateful and thankful that I do not have to be what my life experience says I am or should be."
...and all God's people said, "AMEN!"
Take my life...my mom had a major stroke when I was in the 2nd grade. She couldn't really talk for years after that and had trouble getting around. My dad ran a college (which is no where near as easy as people may think!). Still, they made it a point to come to one of everything we kids were involved in. They came to a football game to see me march in the band and to the Christmas concert. They came to see the plays I did stagework for. It took mom 3-4 times longer to walk anywhere from a 'normal' standpoint. Still, she did it.
I could have said, "It's not fair that my mom and dad don't come to everything" when I saw other parents there for their children -or- I could appreciate the extreme effort they put out to make it to what they did. Their effort was far greater then the other parents who were there all the time.
What made the difference? Jesus and I started our relationship 35 years ago and I was raised to trust Him. I watched my parents trust Him. I watched my mother NEVER be bitter.
Some of the pastors here will "give a witness" to the fact that they have 2-4 sermons for funerals and pick the one that fits best. When my mother (who had that stroke in the early 70s (overcame it), cancer (overcame it), heart trouble (overcame it) and finally a 2nd massive stroke which took her home in the mid 80s) passed away the pastor spent 3 full days going over his funeral sermons. He now has another one.
You see, mom would shake his hand after the service and he would ask how she was. She would always smile and say "fine". What bothered him was that he knew she was telling the truth! He had to know why. He was a fit younger guy and he was NEVER that fine all the time.
It was a simple truth. My mom let her faith in Jesus shape her and she used that faith shape what was around her. She made her life in the image of her faith instead of making her faith in the image of her life.
Mike22685 wrote: "DP, that was a rather silly thing to say. Everyone has life experiences that shape who they are. Its not up to you to decide which ones you think the Bible says are wrong or not, which you have done."
For me, I am grateful and thankful that I do not have to be what my life experience says I am or should be. The reality that I can be better off than what my life experience has dealt and dictated is a freedom only found in Him!
i wish people on here who get flagged, wouldn't lie as to why they got flagged. it's really rather immature, and just goes to show their lack of accountability. besides ruins what little respect they have from other people.
Mike - I am not condemning you or anyone else. I am just saying that what you are standing up for is against biblical teaching and Christianity. I use the KJV in case you wonder where I get my information from.
Disciple,
I liked reading your post, I like your tone and where your heart is, but I'd like to point out a biblical mandate that you contradict;
We, as Christians must judge sin. We are to judge righteously; "Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment." (John 7:24) That means we don't judge with our opinions but we are to judge all truth and even sin, as it is the very ministry of the Holy Spirit:
"And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: of sin, because they do not believe in Me..."
Our ministry ought to look like the ministry of the Holy Spirit, should we be filled with the Holy Spirit from the God of love.
Sin can NEVER be a "stumbling block" (as you write in your post) to true repentance; it is rather,the acknowledgement of sin in our lives that brings us to repentance.
"For godly sorrow produces repentance leading to salvation, not to be regretted; but the sorrow of the world produces death." (2 Cor 7:10)
You've got some of man's teaching intertwined within true biblical concept; somehow turning it around saying, in effect, that we can choose God. It is ONLY repentance that leads to salvation.
You also may not know Mike or read much of his stuff. How much do you see in Mike that you could call a 'fruit of repentance? From what Mike has said in his long history of posting here at Cp, Mike's problem isn't that he a Christian who wants change in his life and to turn from sin. He wants to live a homosexual life "in christ", which is obvious error; serving two masters. He is not a 'sinning' Christian wanting to repent but a person in unbelief.
It IS a contradiction in terms; 'gay christian', as it should be to all Christians.
Please Disciple, turn off the Christian radio, or commentaries or humanistic sermons you may have heard...get into the Book.
John, its very clear that you would condemn me rather than have a conversation with me. I am not filthy or unnatural, but using hot words like those will sure shut down an alley of conversation.
DP, that was a rather silly thing to say. Everyone has life experiences that shape who they are. Its not up to you to decide which ones you think the Bible says are wrong or not, which you have done.
As for the story... yeh... remember that thing?
Our church has policies and procedures for those who want to rent our facilities for weddings. There is a premarrital counseling with part of the PC team and you have to have their OKee Dokiee. This goes for everyone. If the church doesn't think you shouldn't get married then you need to go somewhere else. The counseling is 12+ weeks long and uses a book which the singles lovingly refer to as "the engagement ender". It's quite detailed in the 99.9% of marriage that happens outside the "bedroom". I think like 4 out of 5 couples see being married to each other isn't the brightest thing after about 3 weeks!
The church has a listed Biblical criteria for marriage which anyone who wants to use the facilities for a wedding has to fit into. It's for any and everyone who want's to use the facilities.
It doesn't discriminate against anyone. It sets a standard for everyone.
"refuse to listen to any life experiences."
Jesus saves us from our "life-experiences". He frees us from whatever impact they may have had that keeps us from obeying His word.
Hi John
Thank you for your post. you are correct that sin will always be sin, but if we could get rid of sin in our lives by ourselves there would have been no reason for christs teachings, but christ called sinners. Like he said a person who is well doesn't need a physician. All who seek understanding should be allowed to study the teachings of the gospels without ridicule. The difference you are talking about is wether or not that person is a student of christ trying to better himself thru the word or not.
Disciple: no, none of us are totally sinless. The difference we have going on in this wonderful world of ours is people living in filthy unnatural lifestyles totally against the Bible and the will of God and trying to change said lifestyle into a normal good thing. Well, I am sorry to say that sin, whatever kind it is will continue to be sin until the Almighty decides to revise the Bible. When I or any true Christian sins, we are sorry for it and pray for forgiveness and admit we have done something against the will of God. It is quite different when someone lives a lifestyle of sodomy, or any other sin and tries to make it seem that God just loves it. God loves the sinner, whatever the sin your living in is. But you must repent of it to be a saved Christian. This is not my opinion, it is what the Bible says. I pray those who are in this bondage will see the truth someday and be truly saved.
Thanks Mike and I am truly sorry if I have offended you. You're right I dont know you at all and my post was not pointed at you in paticular but as an example of how one might reach their beliefs on homosexuallity. I do know that it is a persons truth that causes them to be the way they are.
Everyone is given the option to delete their post, that's what you're seeing. No worries there. I understand what you are hypothesizing, but its highly offensive that you make such hypotheses about my life when you don't know me from a hole in the wall.
why are my post saying delete. can everyone see my posts ok or am I being ban for some reason. someone let me know if you are seeing my posts.
mike I am not condeming you or anyone who is gay and seeking the understanding of Christ. but something in your life convenced you that you are gay. If you are convenced of anything being true then you are compelled to act on that truth. Maybe you wre meek as a child and convenced yourself that you were supposed to be a girl or maybe you first sexual experience was gay and you are aroused by the thought of gay sex because your body got used to it. one can get use to anything if anyone thinks about having sex with anyone then eventually they will be aroused by that thought. Please go to www.unitedbodyofchrist.net and you will know what I believe.
Its not use arguing with any of you. You have your heads so far in the sand squawking about how I chose to sin, but refuse to listen to any life experiences. People like you drive people away from Christ, despite what you think you might be doing. Shame on you all, open your ears and listen to someone for once. You do not have all the answers, please stop pretending you do.
Mike
I have heard this from most Gay people but one is compeled to be gay because of the way he believes not because of genetics. The things he has been convinced of causes him to believe he has no choice. Jesus gives us understanding that changes the way we think thus sin is removed by these changes of understanding.
John
so you are saying you are perfect and all christians have no sin in their life. How about a compulsive lier, can he be a christian or a drug addict can he be a christian. What about one who cusses or has sex outside of marraige or how about one who is self righteous and causes many to turn from christ. I believe your definition of christian must be christ like and no one has been or ever will be christ like. The true defintition of christian is disciple or student of the teachings of Jesus. All christians have sin but christians are striving to learn how to be more righteous thru the teachings of jesus. We have a desire to be christ like and are being the best example we can, but we are not guiltless according to the law. Jesus never taught the law but he teaches truth that causes us to naturally not break the law. Thus the law is fulfilled by the teachings of jesus. To those of you who cling to the law and use it against people, do you not understand that the law has been found ineffective and has no place in christianity. The jews who had the law for 1500 yrs still crucified their own christ because they found him guilty according to their understanding of the law. Don't missunderstand, because I said the law has no place in christianity. The law is still the law of the kingdom of God, but Christ is the teachings that will allow us to find the kingdom and obay its laws naturally. God is like a father who has many children and some are drug addicts and some are in gangs and some are in jail and some are gay and some are in every bad thing you can think of. But a father loves these as much as he would love his other children and wishes they were not involved in these sins so that they would have a better life. Remember that these children were just like others when they were small and innocent but the things in their life has caused them believe the way they do causing them to act as they do and they are compelled to be the way they are because of their beliefs. Only Jesus can show them the truths that will change them. Therefore by his grace they are allowed to follow him so that they might learn the truth and these truths will make them more righteous no longer desiring to sin.
"but when anger is unleashed some people simply cannot take it."
Be angry yet do not sin.
"being gay most certainly is not a choice, despite anyone's best efforts. "
To the unsaved, sinning is not a choice. Sinners can not help themselves. You are correct.
"DP, approved curriculum is a very broad concept, sorry to burst your bubble. "
Obviously you are not from my part of the country. A teacher could get fired for reading such a book here. If a teacher can read that book then a teacher could read the Bible or any other book. They limit what can be read or in the library. If a book contains language which is not allowed to come out of a students mouth then it isn't in the library.
You are correct disciple - "gay Christian" is a complete contradiction of terms.
disciple, being gay most certainly is not a choice, despite anyone's best efforts. If it were, than you would easily be able to choose to be gay, and I don't see that happening any time soon.
Jester, no lies. I got flagged for being honest, I wish they would go there in a handbasket, but when anger is unleashed some people simply cannot take it.
Mike, I take you it are a gay christian. If that is the case then I thank god for you and wellcome you to the christian brotherhood. I know to alot of people that is a contradictory of terms. You are right in saying that by judging one another that we run people away from christianity and it is a terrible sin to be a stumbling block. All have sin even since yesterday and God doesn't distinguish one sin worse than another so we should not judge least someone starts pointing out our sin and we would be just as guilty. Now on the other hand "all sex is sin accept that allowed for creation, because all sex is created out of lust. A gay persons love for their partner is not sin, but sex is. The kingdom of God represents a perfect good world and anything that is not perfect is sin. Now i must ask , is it more perfect for a man to have sex with another man because he loves him and the two of them live their lives together till they die or is it more perfect that this man should have sex with a good friend who is a woman and they have 3 kids and their kids get married and have kids and this man sees his blood grandchildren and experiences a real family. I only have one question for people who are gay and that would be "if you could have the same relationship with a member of the opposite sex that you do now and feel the same way about it, wouldn't that be better. If the answer is yes, then don't let sex cause you to miss the person you could have had that with. Now as far as sin goes, If we could stop sinning by our own will then there would be no reason for Christ but jesus by his word changes the way we see things and takes sin from us. Remember when we first came to jesus and how he has changed us from our sin and let us remeber also how long it took to change us and that we are still a work in progress so that we will let others have their time with jesus so that he might change them. This is the true gospel of jesus that our faith is in hope and grace.
so you know that it wasn't because the "truth" was being told that you were flagged, so why lie about it?
yep!
Right, because I told someone to go to h-e-double hockey stick...wouldn't you make an excellent high school guidance counselor, doncha know?
you can call it truth, but you and i both know the real reason why you were flagged.
DP, approved curriculum is a very broad concept, sorry to burst your bubble.
Gr8, the only thing you care about is forcing your VIEW of the Bible interpretation you take as fact on me. I pray someday you'll open your eyes. You are driving many away from Christ,and that may just be the greatest sin of all.
PS- I'm glad someone flagged me because the truth was too hard to take. :)
I pray that everyone during this discussion can disagree-agreeably and try to use scripture as the final proof worthy enough to settle your disagreements on this matter.
Mike,hope one day you will see my point because your point of view doesn't have any creditable foundation to it, Sir, my dialogue is grounded in the BIBLE and historical views of the normal beginnings of any society that teach the next generation their proper natural roles, this is not hate, but bringing human beings back to who they truly are, HUMAN BEINGS, not ANIMALS.
"you'll see how much you've hurt people trying the hardest to believe in Christ."
You don't try to believe in Christ. You surrender to Him and live life by His rules. You die to self and live the life He has for you. In short, you drive your life to the foot of the cross, get out, hang the keys on the cross and get into the life He has for you and that is now the life you live. You turn away from your old life and accept the responsibility of the new.
Isa 64:6
"But we are all as an unclean [thing], and all our righteousnesses [are] as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away."
This is why you (and everyone else) try hard but never seem to get there. It is only in exchanging your life for the life Christ has for you to live.
"public school teachers can read a story like "king and king" to a classroom without parent consent"
Not here! All books have to be approved curriculum.
Mike, what you label as hate, really is the foundational values of any society which is gripped with natural and spiritual morality,Sir, your children are whatever they were born to be and that is what God intended them to be as much as you are naturally a Man so you are. The father had every right to see what his child was being taught if it was wrong unnatural way of life.
Mike, it is not only my religious views, but as a society, from the beginning of civilization, this was a traditionary view which taught the normalcy of male-female relationship properly. This is not just my view, Sir, but the view of many was comes from a book that precedes generations of people, and that book, Sir is the BIBLE.
It is an agenda from the depths of hell
Filled with dark secrets no one wants to tell
To take the children and build a new nation
That will dance and embrace abomination
The watchman cries, "Turn from your wicked ways"
Most just hiss with defiance in their gaze
With one voice they shout, "We were born this way"
Poor slaves of Satan who have gone astray
To them we say, "O hear the watchman's plea"
Turn to the Lord and he will set you free
For one, public school teachers can read a story like "king and king" to a classroom without parent consent regardless of gay marriage because it is a societal issue, just like we read stories about divorce or different family structures.
Gr8, why shouldn't children hear about a prince marrying a prince? Your religious beliefs do not trump the rights of my children when it comes to a public school. Children should learn about all types of families, especially when there are children with same sex parents in the school. That father was arrested because he didn't get an answer he wanted, not because he was not given an answer. He staged a protest, he was arrested, just as any protested would be. He is not a martyr!
It sounds like the Mormon Church was taking a stand when it came to one thing(no child should hear any story about a prince marrying another prince), seems like sin is being indoctrinated into innocent children through fairy tales and children's fiction, don't agee with the Mormons on everything, but I have to applaud them for letting their voice be heard on that.
mike22685, but she was still read the book regardless of the reason her father was arrested, plus he refused to leave because no one would tell him why his daughter was made to listen to this story without his knowledge and approval of it. So it appears those accusations are true if same-sex marriage is made legal.
They almost exclusively funded commercials saying that if gay marriage passed in CA, children would be forced to learn about gay marriage, which was not at all true. They said that a father was locked up in MA because he stood up to his daughter being read a book about gay marriage (truth was, she was read a book about a prince who dated another prince, and when he refused to leave the principal's office he was arrested.) The mormon church undoubtedly knew that when you target children, people will do whatever you want, even if it isn't true.
The Mormons are really out of the fringe of Christianity and please give me information on this proposed hyateful information that they gave pertaining to the homosexuals, Sir.
ha! so the mormon church spreading lies to get Prop 8 passed wasn't hateful? Its sad that you truly think there is an organized gay agenda. Again, conspiracy theorists...
The homosexual movement is well organized and knows where to go to demonstrate their views in a discreet way, this is seen and read about all the time, the movement should target the Neo-nazis and Skin Heads which threaten them and vandalize property , the church doesn't encourage this type of negativity against anyone even homosexuals.
y'all conspiracy theorists enjoy your Saturday!
Could be mistaken on the business aspect, however this still smells like a set plan put together for that church to drum up some support about being discriminated against homosexuals
gary,
You need to differentiate between a church and a business. A business, even if it's owned by a church, is separate from the church, and if they want to privatize it, they have that right.
But I think that this group should have allowed the couple to use their place to get married, and then just shower them with God's love and message the whole time. Put up posters that God loves them and wants them to separate themselves from their sins. Even though God condemns homosexuality that He is there to help them overcome their sin. Stuff like that. Not much they can do about free speech.
"the gay couple had every right to bring it to court,"
Wasn't it the pro-gay camp that was yelling separation of church and state during the Prop 8 issue? Why is it OK for the courts to interfer with the church? Gays are either for separtation or they are not. You can't have it both ways.
Mr.Mike, Privatizing the property will only add more fuel to the fire, every business tries to fight public laws by privatizing their business to exclude certain groups , the church is not a private business or corporation, it is t he body of Christ reaching out to wounded people not their sins.
Mr. Mike, the gay couple probably knew about the property being owned by the church and even though that is public property, the church has a responsibiltiy to govern that property according to standards which is in compliance whith a family oriented environment and the church is a family oriented environment which supports the same type of familyenvironmental activities or businesses.
"The town had very specific laws and the church broke the rules. "
The gays picked the church spot when the shore has many to rent. The gays WANTED a fight. This is the only reason for wanting to rent that property. There are many, many places WAY more suited for a civil union then that one place.
It's amazing how fast the law suit got filed too. It couldn't have happened faster if it had already been in the computer waiting to have the last info put on it before sending it to the court house. Hummm...amazing, no?
Hi everyone! The Christian Post now has a Facebook page that you can join to show your friends what you're reading and to also get your friends engaged in your Christian news discussions! Check it out and spread the word! http://www.facebook.com/pages/The-Christian-Post/41093998634
Gr8, its not an attack. The town had very specific laws and the church broke the rules. The church is not being made a martyr here, no matter how you want to spin it. I love how my question wasn't answered. If this church decided they would not marry an interracial couple, should they be allowed to exclude them, despite town law? If this church does not want anyone to be allowed to use their space, then they need to keep it very restricted (i.e. keep it private, such as within their church.) A town law was broken, the gay couple had every right to bring it to court, and this is not another example of the world sliding down a slippery slope thanks to your ungodly gay neighbors. Get over it folks!
"there is no agenda here."
Satan has an anti-Christ agenda here.... From the foundation of the world Jesus set up marriage to be a reflection of Christ and the Church. Anything Satan can do to end that example IS his agenda.
"Prophet, there is no agenda here."
Yeah, as I said....Hitler said the same thing.
Thank you disciple, everyone needs prayer to see things a little clearer the way the Lord wants us, as believers, as we should.
This seems it would fall under separation of church and state. I don't see where the state judicial system has any jurisdiction in this case. Instead of the gay cple trying to force their ways and beliefs on everyone, just get another place. Not everyone is going to agree with or even like you, just like not everyone is going to like me. It is inappropriate to force your ways on anyone. We are adults and worth our opinions and it is good to hear different understandings, but even though our beliefs are good for discussion they are ours and our salvation is individual between us and God. Pray for those in disagreement that the truth will come out between you and them and trust in the guidance of the lord.
Thank you sir, upon rereading the article, my previous statement still stands upon the Methodist church taking their stand of righteous relationships activities on their property.
Its quite clear you haven't taken the time to read the article, good sir.
This is an attack on the natural instincts and rights of the human being to be what God had ordained them(male and female) to be from creation. The Bible reaffirms what their true nature, not this confused transition from opposite attract to same attract.
Prophet, there is no agenda here. The church broke their town's ordinance, they were brought to court. If a black couple was denied use of the property and they brought it to court, would it be the black agenda?
Chris
"Prophet, are you actually comparing gay people to Hitler." Only in the context that they both had agendas, and they both denied it.
Other than that, you read into it only what you want, and completely miss the point.
This decision of the court seems exactly right to me. A "Camp Meeting Association" is not a church. People who run businesses that are generally open to the general public do not have a right to discriminate in providing their services just because their owners have a strong religious belief. A Muslim who runs a deli cannot refuse to serve women who don't wear head scarves. A Christian university cannot prohibit black students from attending just because its own particular interpretation of the Bible is thought to require that policy. Nothing in the court's ruling applies to churches. People who say that this means churches must perform same-sex weddings are either misinformed or lying.
This decision of the court seems exactly right to me. A "Camp Meeting Association" is not a church. People who run businesses that are generally open to the general public do not have a right to discriminate in providing their services just because their owners have a strong religious belief. A Muslim who runs a deli cannot refuse to serve women who don't wear head scarves. A Christian university cannot prohibit black students from attending just because its own particular interpretation of the Bible is thought to require that policy. Nothing in the court's ruling applies to churches. People who say that this means churches must perform same-sex weddings are either misinformed or lying.
Prophet, are you actually comparing gay people to Hitler? Do you not know that Hitler killed many homosexuals in concentration camps? I think maybe you better reflect a bit on what it means to be a Christian.
"science in fact is how God created the world. "
Man created science. God has no need of it as he already knows and understands everything.
Bryan,
As a famous president elect once said in response to a religious question; to answer would be above my pay grade. It's only speculation to think beyond written History.
It's sheer fanasty for coming up with evidence of evolution happening today. I probably am naive when it comes to science, but didn't some of the rules of science say that it must be observable? For me, it's okay I don't know how everything came into being, I trust God's nature to tell me all He needs me to know. I believe Him to be powerful enough to speak it into existence.
If the earth is so old, what's earth purpose? What has kept it from being hit by a space rock? Seems to lengthen the odds, doesn't it...millions and millions of years, so few hits?
From God's point of view, earth isn't going to last much longer, it's a little more disposable than you think...don't sink your toes in too deeply.
He has a purpose for earth and it doesn't matter how old the earth in in order to accomplish it.
bryan, you base your view of what God told man 1,000 years ago based on the idea man would not be able to grasp evolution if God had told him that and yet some 5,000 years ago these very ignorant men built the pyramids in Egypt which still amaze the minds of men today!
Delight,
In my opinion, science in fact is how God created the world. Again, since I take the bible for its value and not its literal words, my interpretation of the world and of God may differ.
What better way to create the world than through evolution? Every time I study the science of evolution, I go "Only God can think of such things."
How does it reconcile with scripture? Well, I asked myself, if God did indeed use evolution to create human beings, how is he going to explain it to someone who existed 1000 years ago?
"I created men, I created women, I created animals." - There you go, the book of genesis.
"To explain evolution to a 3rd grader, simply flip open the book of genesis."
It was my right to wait for God to bring the right woman to me. He did from 3 states away through a series of VERY unlikely events.
stadtbear,
Jesus was talking about food. Keep scripture in context.
Human rights? How are anyone's human rights being violated? In this nation any man has the right to go out and marry any woman that will have him; as well any woman has the right to go out and marry any man that will have her. It was my right before I was married to go out and marry any woman that would have have me.
This seems like this is stage as anattack on the church and the church should stand toghether against this Satanic Attack, trying to insinuate something of prejudice and any denial of human rights ploy, the christian teaching, if it comes from the bible, reaffirms the human natural rights that the Lord affirmed in the human being upon creation. We neeed to pray that the Methodist stay onm true biblical principles dealing with the adversary and their tricks.
Just a point here...those who go to church may want to ask the leaders of their congregation if they have policies to cover this so it doesn't happen to your congregation.
"Truth be told, churches never had to think about these things before."
That's because people who openly practiced what was offensive to the church never wanted to use their property in the past.
I fully agree all churches should have a written policy, guideline and formal contract for what can and cannot be done on their property if they are going to rent it.
stad, as far as homosexual couples getting the same legal rights and benefits that can be easily resolved through stronger domestic partnership laws, but as far as marriage is concerned, God's Word is clear that God's original and only design for marriage is that of one man and one woman united as one for life in the sight of God, so even if same-sex marriage becomes legal it will still not be recognized in the sight of God.
To John5796:
A lot has been said about what Jesus did or did not have to say about homosexuality. Jesus Christ is the core of Christianity. Yet today many people seem to consider homosexuality to be the single most important issue before Christians. African Anglicans claim that homosexual acts are sinful. Others use the words of the Bible to deny gays basic human rights and equal protections, such as the right to marry. Or they use the Bible to justify abusing and even murdering gays. It is hard to believe that Jesus would have been completely silent about something so important. Yet the claim is that, somehow, he was.
But that claim is wrong. Jesus did speak of homosexual acts. Specifically he said:
"There is nothing from without a man, that entering into him can defile him"
Those are the words of Jesus Christ, from Mark 7.
The simplest thing to do is just to compare homosexual acts to that statement. Do homosexual acts involve something entering into a man from without? Why yes, they do. So we know by Jesus’s own words that they do not defile a man -- they are not sinful. That is simple, direct, and accurate. One either does or does not believe that Jesus Christ knew what he was talking about, meant what he said, and did not lie. Anyone who imagines that he finds something in the New Testament that contradicts this fact is, quite simply, wrong. Jesus Christ himself says they are wrong, and he should know.
Hey Bryan,
"And this is ABSOLUTE beauty of life that God created"
"Different species get created as evolution progresses; different societal norms form as collective mindset changes."
"get created" and then "evolve progressively"?
Consider your statement, Bryan and ask yourself if there is any contradiction here to your mind. Do they teach that in evolution class these days, a mix of creation and evolution? Hmmm.
Also, not feelin you on this "Collective mindset" deal; Is that many gods or many people and how do they affect change? Seriously, just curious.
Also wanted to clarify my statement;
"When the first sense MAKES sense, LOOK for no other sense."
I misquoted and used the word 'use' rather than 'look'. I'm terribly anal about these things :D, hopefully it will make more sense to you.
Have a happy and Safe New Year!
God made man, and God made woman. Anything else is perverted and sick. What's going to be next? Maybe someone will want to marry his cocker spaniel. Will churches be obligated to perform the ceremony? This may sound silly, but how far can these unnatural and sinful desires go?? This society is in real trouble.
Bryan,
"See I don't get why some people are so adverse to different types of wisdom and knowledge."
"Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?" I Corinthians 1:20 Actually, read that whole chapter which talks about worldly wisdom.
" 5That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.
6Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:
7But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory..." I Corinthians 2:5-7
"For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness." I Corinthians 3:19
"But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy." James 3:17
So, as jester put it so succinctly...you cant blame the world for the "wisdom" of humanism and relativism. They're both garbage.
bryan, I agree with you, but a word of caution here, as delight says man regardless of how close to God we get or even how Christ-like we become, we are still fallible and as delight also said we must first know where a person stands both spiritually and scripturally before we put our confidence in their interpretations and viewpoints, but also keep in mind they like us can make mistakes and that is why we must always rely on God's Holy Spirit to give us His discernment to know the difference. Plus, I have several people who I look to when I find myself stuck on a biblical and/or doctrinal issue in order to get the best answer to the issue.
annotation on last post. Ephesians 2:2...which reads in part, "in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience..."
Amen Believer;
There are others out there more knowledgeable on the Book than I and have done more research on subjects I have only skimmed over. The important thing to understand that outside sources have the handicap of coming from a Human Viewpoint(finite-fallable) rather than the Divine Viewpoint (Infinite, UNfallable).
That is why I always investigate a statement of faith from anyone I read.
Bryan-You seem familiar with jh on the other post, in how you think he studies...but do keep in mind the fallability of man and do not put your faith in any man.
Also, consider if you will, that there is a cosmic battle taking place in the heavenly realm for the minds and hearts of man . Not in a yin/yang sort of way, both sides in the battle are NOT equal, here. Satan has been defeated but he is your enemy and wants to keep you from understanding the truth of god, so you will get some interference here from 'the god of this world';
"in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience..."
Consider the words of Jesus to Paul on the road to Damascus in Acts 26:18
"...to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me."
Always check your sources and know that there are some out there who wish to decieve you.
I am sorry Believer, I was to hasty in writing.
I took some time to consult my conscience. And yes you're right. God transfers his wisdom to us not through words from the sky, but through the actions of others' + our own reflection.
There is always something to learn from everyone. He made us all different so that no matter how gifted we are in one area, there is always another where we can learn from someone else!
bryan, God is ultimately responsible for all healing and He can heal simply by His touch or a spoken word, but most times He chooses to work through men and women He has specifically gifted in the area of medicine and while I know God by His Holy Spirit can give me the answer personally, I believe that often times He chooses to provide that answer through people He has specifically gifted in the are of Bible knowledge, language, and apologetics. So why waste such a godly valuable resource.
bryan, most times before I go to these writers I pretty well have an idea of what I believe God is trying to tell us, but I also know that sometimes we may have a bias toward an issue and this is where I like to get the viewpoint of a relatively disinterested person(s) in the matter, plus these folks are a whole lot smarter and as I said earlier gifted by God in these areas.
But that is exactly what Jhil and I do.
When we see contradiction in the Bible. We ask God for his wisdom. As for myself, I learned how to read the bible without any contradiction, and if any arise, God will answer them for me. It's just that through my learning process, I realized that I can understand God's ways through a lot of other sources other than the Bible. Hence I don't read it often.
And believer, I think we ought not to be so humble sometimes. You do not necessarily have to look to these people for the interpretation. "Ask and you shall receive," I think God is willing to give wisdom to whoever that is willing to ask. Just like Soloman :P
Bryan,
I look for the value when it seems there is a contradiction, but I pray as well that God's Holy Spirit reveal to me the meaning until I can say, 'aha'. I am beginning to know the nature of God when I begin to trust, belief may come a bit slowly here, but keep seeking.
Then I look for supporting Scripture for the value or the meaning...this is where the power of the Holy Spirit will speak to your heart. He will lead a surrendered heart to see Scriptures that suddenly 'pop' out to our eyes. What I do, is jot the perplexing Scripture down on paper and keep reading for understanding. I check back with that note from time to time, until I begin to grasp the truth; or belief.
Believing in the Unchangeable Nature of God, I trust He is good and He wants me to have understanding of Him.
"For I am the LORD, I do not change..." Malachi 3:6.
bryan, plus there are no valid contradictions to be found in God's Word and that is where writers like Josh McDowell and Norman Geisler come in to show us why what may appear to be a contradiction really is not.
bryan, the correct answer is both, a professor in the Christian college I attended put it this way, the Bible says what it means and means what it says, but the Bible doesn't always say what it means or mean what it says. Another Pastor said their are certain issues taught in the Bible that we must plant our feet in concrete over and there are certain issues taught in the Bible that we dare not plant our feet in concrete over. And this is where the Holy Spirit comes in to illumine in the heart and mind of every true believer exactly what God would have us to glean from His Word and how to apply those truths to our daily living. Plus, there are men and women who God has greatly gifted, such as Josh McDowell and Norman Geisler, with the ability to discern and teach the Word of God in order to help those of us who struggle at time with clearly understanding God's Word. The rule of thumb that I use is even though the Bible does not contain all truth, it is the foundation for all truth, so if I read or hear something that is promoted as truth that in any way violates, contradicts, or supersedes God's Word I am compelled to reject it since based on God's Word it cannot be true.
"when the first sense MAKES sense use no other sense. "
So what if it doesn't make sense? What if two phrases in the bible contradicts. Would you start reading the value and not the words?
Bryan,
You know when you said it was also imbedded knowledge...you acknowledge the Life that is in the Word.
Here's what I use, trusting the nature of God:
I read literally;
when the first sense MAKES sense use no other sense.
But Delight, how do we approach his words.
Do we do it literally, or do we take the values embedded in the bible?
Bryan,
"a change in action does not represent a change in value"
Aha, here's where discernment and wisdom come into play...but action COULD represent a change in values. The question is which action to take to represent my values.
God has written out His Actions from Beginning (Alpha) to the END (Omega) to us in the Bible.
He will not deviate from His Eternal Word or act out of His Revealed Character
Bryan,
"So how do we decide which wisdom godly and which ungodly?" Good question and it is very important to know the difference between the two. We check everything against the unchangeable or Eternal Word of God. To the seeking heart, He will reveal Himself to you (God is good); remember I said to you, Bryan that:
"The LORD near to those who have a broken heart, And saves such as have a contrite spirit."
Pslams 34:18 also see Psalms 51:17 plus look at Isaiah 57:15.
So, a person whose heart is broken over their own sin, the Lord is close to.
Go look up the Scriptures I gave you nand read them for yourself, it's much more powerful for you to read for yourself...that is where GOD SPEAKS to us. Read them and let me know what you think of a "contrite heart".
Also, from Jeremiah 29:13 "And you will seek Me and find Me, when you search for Me with all your heart."
Are you searching for God and are you contrite of heart?
Hey Mike22685
Hope you had a nice Christmas. I am starting to see where you, Prophet and believer made mention to guidelines earlier, are coming from. Makes sense. Truth be told, churches never had to think about these things before.
Delight,
I don't know if God is fickle minded or not. He might be, he might not, I haven't asked him yet; I doubt it matters to me. But liking diversity; liking change, does not make him a fickle minded God. He can consistently like diversity and like change. I believe his values to be consistent - of love and humanity. But a change in action does not represent a change in value.
Supposing that he performed explicit miracles back in the past - splitting oceans and such. It doesn't mean that since he no longer performs them today, he is fickle minded. It is just because due to the change in circumstances, he doesn't deem it necessary to do so. His actions changed, his value hasn't
So how do we decide which wisdom godly and which ungodly?
Your wisdom tells you to interpret scriptures literally. Mine tells me to see the value embedded within.
Your wisdom tells you that evolution is against creationism.
Mine tells me that the science of evolution only sheds more light on God's grand design.
We are both honoring him in our hearts. But in different ways.
Hey Bryan,
Hbr 13:8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever.
We can change, but God is unchangeable and He never lies. We can depend on a God Who is not capricious in His dealings with mankind.
Hbr 13:9 Do not be carried about with various and strange doctrines.
I copied this last from the same chapter of Hebrews because it speaks to the idea of different wisdoms. God tells us to get understanding but there are two different wisdoms;
1) God's wisdom; true and timeless wisdom, verifiable by Scripture and the fact that God doesn't lie and he doesn't change.
2) Worldly wisdom; changeable with circumstance, oftentimes,a mix of lies and truth:
James3:15 "This wisdom does not descend from above, but is earthly, sensual, demonic."
With God we don't have to fear changes in circumstance, we can ask for wisdom:
James 1:5 "If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives to all liberally and without reproach, and it will be given to him."
"But let him ask in faith, with no doubting, for he who doubts is like a wave of the sea driven and tossed by the wind." vs 6.
There is true peace in surrender to God's wisdom, Bryan.
Please do not make the administrators of this church out to be martyrs, and don't make the couple out to be demons. The church very clearly broke the provisions set for allowing people to rent your space, and here is the consequence. I doubt the couple was looking for a fight when they asked to rent it, but I completely agree with their decision to bring it to court as what this church is doing violated town law. Legally, the church discriminated. This isn't a question of church rights or choosing who you would like to rent to, the church should have been wiser and rented within specific guidelines if they did not want to allow anyone and everyone to rent their hall.
Bryan wrote: "God very clearly stated in the bible that wisdom and knowledge is the best gift mankind could ever ask for."
Proverbs 9:10 "The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom, And the knowledge of the Holy One is understanding."
"those two "wisdoms" are all man's doing. you can lay claim to those. please. they're nothing but trash anyway."
See I don't get why some people are so adverse to different types of wisdom and knowledge. God very clearly stated in the bible that wisdom and knowledge is the best gift mankind could ever ask for. It's true that sometimes our views might contradict somebody else's. But that doesn't mean that they are all bad and we are all good.. that they are all wrong and we are all right.
God gave us rationality so that we could think.
those two "wisdoms" are all man's doing. you can lay claim to those. please. they're nothing but trash anyway.
prophet's come back was at least in the realm of a teenager.
i would have responded with
"whatever!"
"Two among the gazillions of "wisdoms" God has inspired human beings to come out with.'
did you come up with that all by yourself? i don't think so. i think you had the help of a couple 5 year old on that one. that is such a classy come back.
Bryan,
Um......yeah. Sure.
"humanism and relativism"
Two among the gazillions of "wisdoms" God has inspired human beings to come out with.
Bryan wrote: "it is our ability to change"
You're right, we do have the ability to change.
Well I can see that my mentioning the commandment about bearing false witness against your neighbor has elicited the usual response - bearing false witness against gays :))
Really amazing how selective people can be about what sins to condemn, and which ones to revel in.
Bryan,
Wow, I can see the humanism and relativism just dripping off your post.
Muggle, I wasn't thinking of you in particular, as I assumed that you were merely commenting on the Camp Meeting Association's policy, not endorsing it. Pardon me if I wasn't clear.
I very much appreciate that you raised the point, since it illustrates the contorted and highly selective interpretations some will force on the Bible to try to make it ratify their preferences or prejudices.
"God's natural design"??
There is no such thing!! It is nature to change.. The world's beauty strives on diversity. Different species get created as evolution progresses; different societal norms form as collective mindset changes; no two days in the world is exactly the same!
And this is ABSOLUTE beauty of life that God created. There is no natural design! When there was only Adam and Eve and their family, it was natural to breed among siblings. But apparently not today! During the roman empire's time, only men could be worldly humans and hence only men could be apostles, but not today!
If there is one nature that God created, it is our ability to change.
Another sermon you don't hear much. Sin is sin, and those who willfully and unrepentantly engage in it will be judged by God. There's a good sermon.
Here's another big lie:
Homosexuals saying "We don't have an agenda!"
That's right up there with Hitler's "Just give me Czechoslavakia, and that will be good."
tip wrote: "Whatever happened to not bearing false witness, I wonder - that is a sermon you never hear any more."
Gay marriage bears false witness to God's natural design for marriage between one man and one woman.
ThomasOfDoubt,
>> I found this comment interesting: "Incidentally, if it were a heterosexual Jewish wedding, I don't think there would be a problem."
We all know that's absolutely true, and in fact, Jewish couples have used the pavilion over the years for weddings and ceremonies. I guess for some "Christians" being heterosexual is more important than accepting Jesus Christ as savior. Such a belief is clearly heresy against the Bible, is it not? Shouldn't Christians who profess it be called out as the frauds they are? <<
Uuuh, EXCUSE ME ... but Don't CALL ME a FRAUD. That was MY comment AND YOU took it out of context. I mentioned it because someone had already brought up a reference about discrimination against Jews, implying a comparison to homosexuality. It came up out of a reference to a George Washington letter.
ThomasOfDoubt, Why don't you try READING the comments first, genious ... before you start twisting words around. How could someone trust YOU to evangelize with an understanding of God's Word when you can't even understand what other people here are trying to say?
Don't you EVER bring accusations like that against me ever again.
The only big lie being perpetrated is that somehow gays will "force" churches to marry them, when that is both unconstitutional and obviously wrong.
You cannot "force" a Catholic priest to marry a couple when they have been divorced, you can't "force" a rabbi to marry someone who is uncircumscized - every church has total control over it's doctrines and ceremonies and allowing gays to get a license from the State Department of Health and married by a JP or friendly church is no threat to religious freedom.
In Canada the churches are still free...
But this lie will be retold again and again as justification for denying gays their equal rights under the law.
Whatever happened to not bearing false witness, I wonder - that is a sermon you never hear any more.
"the us supreme court deemed that homosexuality can be legally lived out in this country."
They also said you could kill unborn babies. What's your point?
"Yet, some people like to nurse a special hatred against gay and lesbian people, with poisons their thinking and leads them into all kinds of error."
The only special hatred I see is the gay and lesbian couples attacking the constitutional rights of religious people who say homosexuality is sin. They slap little old ladies and sue anyone who won't tell them how nice their being gay is.
feet,
Has schools been irresponsible all this time for not teaching marriage between a man and a woman?
Why is it so critical students now know of both marriages when marriage as understood (by law) up until now has never been of critical importance to be taught in schools?
Oh and what age should students be taught marriage?
Unfortunately for him, calling homosexuality in a public place isn't a crime. At least any more than calling Christianity wrong would be. So that would put two parties at odds. If Christians can't speak out agains homosexuality, then homosexuals couldn't speak out against Christians.
And so feet shows the true colors of the gay agenda.
the last part reedited
what i find interesting is that in spite of romans 1:20For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities,his eternal power and divine nature,have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse................................................believers can find no evidence to make laws that support their beliefs. apparently there appears to be no evidence...........................those who want to make changes in the laws to withdraw support of homosexuality are forced to rely solely on belief and nothing else to motivate making those changes, and this violates the very principles that the law is founded.
let me put it this way. it doesnt make any difference where this country got its laws.
TODAY......... CONGRESS CAN MAKE NO LAWS RESPECTING ANY RELIGION (ANY RELIGOUS BELIEF) ABOVE OTHER RELIGIONS.
the fact that believers continue to seek redress along religious grounds, means that they are totally unaware of the principles that this country is founded on.
the us supreme court deemed that homosexuality can be legally lived out in this country.
that gives public schools the freedom to legally teach anything about the essence of homosexuality to the students as they would in the same way about heterosexuality, without giving any parental approval. the fact that there is all likelihood that there will be students having a gay orientation attending every school makes it irresponsible to not to do so. and in addition, now that both homosexuality and heterosexuality is the law of the land, it is crritical that all students be aware of both.
that also means that businesses open to the public cannot discriminate in any way against homosexuals, regardless of the beliefs of the proprietor.
it also means that religious beliefs against homosexulity cannot expressed in any public forum that is outside the confines of any religious meeting place.
to make any changes in these conditions based on religious belief, violates the principle about NOT MAKING LAWS THAT RESPECT ANY RELIGION(SUPPORTING ANY RELIGIOUS BELIEF)ABOVE OTHER RELIGIONS.
what i find interesting is that in spite of romans 1:20For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualitiesâ€â€his eternal power and divine natureâ€â€have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse...........................................believers can find no evidence to make laws that support their beliefs. apparently there appears to be no evidence...........................those who want to make changes in the laws to withdraw support of homosexuality are forced to rely solely on belief and nothing else to motivate making those changes, and this violates the very principles that the law is founded.
savannah wrote: "This nation was founded on the belief that people should be able to practice their religion however they choose without government interferance. This is government interference. No one should be forced to accomodate anyone or anything that goes against their religious beliefs."
Amen! Amen! Amen!
I found this comment interesting: "Incidentally, if it were a heterosexual Jewish wedding, I don't think there would be a problem."
We all know that's absolutely true, and in fact, Jewish couples have used the pavilion over the years for weddings and ceremonies. I guess for some "Christians" being heterosexual is more important than accepting Jesus Christ as savior. Such a belief is clearly heresy against the Bible, is it not? Shouldn't Christians who profess it be called out as the frauds they are?
Yet, some people like to nurse a special hatred against gay and lesbian people, with poisons their thinking and leads them into all kinds of error.
It doesn't take rocket science to figure out what direction this is all going. We've known it for a long time.
"Opponents of gay marriage cite the case as a prime example of their contention that by recognizing same-sex couples, states are interfering with religious freedoms."
Whenever I hear the gay agenda folks whine about how their relationships don't affect others, I cringe at the lie. They're (gays who say it doesn't affect others) liars from the get go. They are perverted from the get go and if we don't stand up and fight this perversion of gay unions, or whatever, we'll all be meeting underground as a church until Jesus return.
I have a young family and I'm willing to go to jail standing up for my rights as a Christian. Our church, if ever forced to use our church facility as a place for gays to marry would rather disperse or go to jail rather than to have a place of worship be forced to marry perversion. May God have mercy on us.
From a previous article on this dispute:
"Boardwalk Pavilion and other buildings on the same site have hosted church and worship services for over 100 years. Currently, the facility is used for Sunday worship services, a weekday middle-school and high-school Bible program, a weekly summer band program, evening association meetings, and two to three Gospel music ministry programs each day during the summer season"
"'of course not, acting in accord to your beliefs STOPS when those beliefs intrude on the rights of others."
OK...so the rights of these lesbians should STOP when those beliefs intrude on the rights of others like the church. I am SO glad you agree these lesbians and the judge were wrong. Either that or you have a double standard.
bokovel
That is true, but there are also anti-discriminatory laws in effect. Under the civil rights act of 1964, Tile II "Outlawed discrimination in hotels, motels, restaurants, theaters, and all other public accommodations engaged in interstate commerce; exempted private clubs without defining the term "private."
So, unless this property was labeled "private", then they cannot deny anyone's use. But then again, it would be so easy to put the term "sexual-orientation" in under the protected status, thus giving them more leverage.
The Free Exercise Clause accompanies the Establishment Clause and states, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.†These two go hand and hand which allows religious liberty to exist. The first amendment prohibits government from supporting one religion over another, but allows for the support of Chrisianity in general.
If a church is going to get involved in a non-religious business (such as this beach front property, which apparently they use for taxable income), then they are to be held to the laws that govern such. There will be no discrimination. That's the law.
But what worries me, is the line that the homosexuals are pushing. I believe that this couple singled out this place for one purpose: to promote their gay agenda in the face of Christianity. This church opened themselves up to this opportunity. But what is next? Laws and the constitution are not set in stone. They can, and have been changed. Will a day come when the laws are changed, and a pastor/priest who refuses to officiate a gay wedding will be prosecuted? Most likely. Maybe not in the immediate future. It takes time. It took decades for gay marriages to even become an issue, but they did it. One step at a time.
How do you eat an elephant (Christianity)? One bite at a time.
DavidHart said,
>> This is NOT a house of worship. It is essentially a catering facility - open to the public - that is owned by a church. If a church owns a restaurant, it cannot refuse to serve Jews or gays. It's just that simple. <<
True ... I would agree with you about the restaurant.
But they are not just talking about a nice meal together. They want to perform a ritual which flies in the face of God's living word. Think of it as a "conflict of interest".
Incidentally, if it were a heterosexual Jewish wedding, I don't think there would be a problem.
It's like banging your head against a wall. Dang.
"The establishment clause has generally been interpreted to prohibit 1) the establishment of a national religion by Congress, or 2) the preference of one religion over another or the support of a religious idea with no identifiable secular purpose."
No mention of separation of church or State there. I reiterate, this nation was not founded on the separation of church and State. It was founded on Judeo-Christian principles and will remain a Judeo-Christian nation as God so intended.
>> In what should be a well-known letter to the Jewish Community in Newport, RI in 1790, then president George Washington wrote:"All possess alike liberty of conscience and immunity of citizenship it is now no more that toleration is spoken of, as if it was by the indulgence of one class of people, that another enjoyed the exercise of their inherent natural rights. For happily the Government of the United States, which gives to bigotry no sanction, to persecution no assistance requires only that they who live under its protection should demean themselves as good citizens..." <<
The rest of Washington's quote ...
"...May the children of the Stock of Abraham, who dwell in this land, continue to merit and enjoy the good will of the other inhabitants, while every one shall sit in safety under his own vine and fig tree, and there shall be none to make him afraid."
... The children of the stock of Abraham.
Yep, Philo777. You're right. Washington definitely lived the importance of having Judeo-Christian principles, and feeling a genuine love for God's Chosen.
BTW ... demeaning one's self as a good citizen usually meant obeying the law, didn't it? Weren't there laws against gay marriage back then? How about sodomy? Seriously. If I'm wrong, fine. Please tell me.
"This nation was NOT founded on separation of church and state"
Actually, it was. That is the intent of the Establishment Clause. indeed, there is no mention of god in the constitution which also forbids any religious test for office.
Feigned outrage over a new manufactured cause celebre. This is NOT a house of worship. It is essentially a catering facility - open to the public - that is owned by a church. If a church owns a restaurant, it cannot refuse to serve Jews or gays.It's just that simple.
How surprising that philo777 takes their side! By the way, I'm sure when George Washington wrote those words there was no gay lobby...
Like Europe, the US is becoming the country where the rights of people of faith are trampled by those of same sex couples and homosexuals. Thus, creating a special, priviledged class of people within society; woe to those that dare call it what it is, a sin against God!
feet, the lie is finally being found out for what it is. For months people have been saying that the passage of same-sex marriage laws will not impact churches whatsoever and low an behold a church is being told they must allow a same-sex union to be performed in their facility. Now tell me whose rights are being violated, why should a church be forced to allow any activity to take place in their facility that is contrary to the biblical beliefs and doctrines of their congregation?
This nation was NOT founded on separation of church and state. That phrase is found NOWHERE in the constition, the DOI, or any document that matters. The phrase comes from a letter that Jefferson wrote in 1802. It has no legal standing AT ALL, it really doesn't. This nation was founded on the belief that people should be able to practice their religion however they choose without government interferance. This is government interference. No one should be forced to accomodate anyone or anything that goes against their religious beliefs.
This isn't asking for equal rights, this is asking for special rights. I'm sure those lesbians know good and well that homosexuality is against the Chrisian faith, and they should have respected that and gone about their business elsewhere. The first amendment should trump everything, because it is that amendement that forms the cornerstone for our nation, and this case trampled it.
This case basically sets a precedent, "You can be Christian however you choose...but you have to give the gays what they want."
what is it about homosexuality being deemed legal in this country and that this country is founded on seperation of church and state, that believers are unable to understand?
This country wasn't founded on the separation of church and State. The term was first used by Thomas Jefferson in a letter to the Danbury Baptists in 1802. The separation of church and State means that there will be no State religion, such as the Church of England. Why then do we have In God We Trust on our money, Laus Deo atop the Washington Monument which means Praise be to God, etc. This country, my friend, was founded on good ole Judeo-Christian principles and should stay a Judeo-Christian country.
What part of sodomites go back in the closet where you belong don't you understand.
Oh, I forgot, would you all be willing to pay local real estate taxes on your facilities to have private use of them? No, I didn't think so.
In what should be a well-known letter to the Jewish Community in Newport, RI in 1790, then president George Washington wrote: "All possess alike liberty of conscience and immunity of citizenship it is now no more that toleration is spoken of, as if it was by the indulgence of one class of people, that another enjoyed the exercise of their inherent natural rights. For happily the Government of the United States, which gives to bigotry no sanction, to persecution no assistance requires only that they who live under its protection should demean themselves as good citizens..."
Contrary to what you believe, the Constitution does not establish a Christian nation at the expense of the rest of us. Grow up and stop whining!
If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do? (Psalm 11:3).
God's word is being trampled on, one state at a time. False prophets and perveyors of untruth who twist God's word will inch their way forward over the rights of all believers. We are in a spiritual tug-o-war right now. Prop 8 was only a temporary victory, and that victory is spoiled by evil individuals who express hate towards the gay community instead of trying to lovingly minister to them. Those incidents will work their way out into the pluralistic empathetics of society and the gay agenda will rush forward in full force.
Just wait. Soon pastors and priests will not be able to refuse to marry gay couples without threat of legal retribution. We've said this before and other posters (gay or empathetic to their cause) will never be able to assure us that it won't happen, because they know the obvious lie.
The lukewarm and apathetic people of this nation have been acclimated to this culture, into accepting it as normal and rejecting God's design of nature, and plain old common sense. And most people will find they can bend a little further ... as if immorality was a muscle that is to be exorcised. They'll keep bending until we as true Christians are driven into our homes, worshipping our King in fellowship through the Holy Spirit, via underground churches.
So will it be 10, 50, 100 years or more? Depends on the cultural tide, I guess. I wouldn't make assertions that our economy could have any affect, but I have sensed more desperation from various people lately; People seem a little angrier, and "fed up" as of late. So many people are so used to having what they want right now, it may only take some carefully chosen words professed by a charasmatic new liberally minded leader to rally the "lovers of themselves" into voting away anything having to do with "lovers of God", because of the general malaise of the lower, middle and upper class of society who see their tin gods slipping away in the Dow-Jones.
So is there more than just dooms-daying? Of course! We should be joyous, no matter what. We should continue to pray and battle for our rights when we can, even while we are aware that losing battles are ahead.
But God is soverign! His plan will be fulfilled. Praise the Lord, Jesus Christ! Praise God and all His doings! Thank you dear God that we still have voices and some time left with which to speak.
Our position is the same," he said. "A Christian organization has a constitutional right to use their facilities in a way that is consistent with their beliefs."
of course not, acting in accord to your beliefs STOPS when those beliefs intrude on the rights of others. in this case the rights are about "equal protection".
what is it about homosexuality being deemed legal in this country and that this country is founded on seperation of church and state, that believers are unable to understand?
however it is the nature of how believers have responded to this issue, that has woken up the rest of the country to the importance of seperation of church and state.
everything has a silver lining.
So basically if a church allows outside groups to use their church facilities they basically cannot say no to allowing groups whose ideals and standards run contrary to those of their denomination. Sure sounds like we're losing our rights to me and all churches need to immediately stop allowing outside groups to use their facilities or draw up guidelines prohibiting certain activities that are contrary to their view from being carried out in their facilities.
This is where religious groups have to be careful about renting out their property. If it is open for the public to rent then anyone can rent it. Churches need to limit their renting to church members only and have a list of approved functions. Otherwise they give the devil an opportunity.
Still, I'm quite sure there are quite a few ocean front places they could rent. The were picking a fight. This is the actions of intolerant Bibliophobes targeting religious groups with hate. It's time churches started sueing for hate speech against their religious beliefs.
Yeah, no rights are being hindered or taken away from the religious. No need to concern ourselves, now.