Vatican Breaks from Italian Law

By Anne Thomas|Christian Today Reporter

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The Vatican announced this week that it will no longer automatically adopt laws passed by the Italian Parliament.

Vatican Releases New Bioethics Document

The move, which came into effect on Thursday, ends 80 years of automatic adoption brought in by the Lateran treaties between the Pope and the Italian parliamentary system.

The Papal office said there were too many laws in the Italian civil and criminal codes and that many of them conflicted with the Church’s principles.

Vatican City State, the smallest sovereign state in the world, will now consider laws passed by parliament on an individual basis before adopting them as their own.

The decision also applies to international treaties and follows its recent refusal to approve a UN declaration advocating the decriminalization of homosexuality.

The Roman Catholic Church has in the past spoken out against efforts to legalize same-sex civil unions and euthanasia, and the divorce from Italian law could be seen as a bid to protect the Church’s position on these and other ethical issues.

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Blacksho89 »

Fri Jan 09, 2009 2:43 pm Agree: 3 Disagree: 0

Tallguy: The Apostle's Creed is primary doctrine. I think we all can agree that a person who believes and confesses those 12 items has salvation (note, though, that catholic means "universal" not "Roman"). But to point out just one thing: If a man can refuse to forgive a sin, thereby condemning the sinner to Hell, then Christ is not our judge. If Christ is not our judge, then He died for nothing. And if Christ died for nothing, then it is all a lie. None are saved. And who was Pope when Abraham's faith was credited? Sorry, that's 2 things.

Also, no! I would NEVER die for my "denomination"! I would GLADLY die for Christ. Not for Peter, not for Mary, not for Benedict or the Borgia popes. But for Christ gladly.
believer »

Fri Jan 09, 2009 12:15 pm Agree: 0 Disagree: 0

feet, while some heterosexuals do practice anal sex, how in the world would you know that began with the creation of Adam and Eve?
Online4Him »

Fri Jan 09, 2009 11:59 am Agree: 3 Disagree: 0

Tallguy,

No need to be sarcastic . . . despite our disagreements, we all should be able to have a mature conversation here . . .
Wilderness1 »

Fri Jan 09, 2009 11:54 am Agree: 1 Disagree: 0

Pope Leo XIII said, "It has always been the habit of Catholics in danger and in troublous times to fly for refuge to Mary, and to seek for peace in her maternal goodness; showing that the Catholic Church has always, and with justice, put all her hope and trust in the Mother of God..." [Supremi Apostolatus Officio On Devotion Of The Rosary]

A humble reading of the word of God shows that this is far from being sound doctrine; it is leaven to be refused. If we need to fly for refuge or put all our hope and trust in someone, let it not be Mary, but the Lord. "But the Lord is my defence; and my God is the rock of my refuge" (Ps 94:22). "The LORD is my rock, and my fortress, and my deliverer; my God, my strength, in whom I will trust; my buckler, and the horn of my salvation, and my high tower" (Ps 18:2).
Tallguy1000 »

Fri Jan 09, 2009 9:53 am Agree: 0 Disagree: 3

Whew! THANK YOU Bossmanham, I feel much better now! I urge you to study the very sound doctrine of the Holy Catholic Church, join us, worship Christ in His fullness now, and we'll see each other in heaven later. Amen!
feetxxxl »

Fri Jan 09, 2009 2:06 am Agree: 0 Disagree: 2

hawk

heterosexuals have been practicing anal sex since the beginning of man. yet there are no health statistics for heterosexuals who practice this. in fact given the number of heterosexual couples who practice some form of anal stimulation and the numbers homosexual couples, in all likelihood there may be more heterosexuals practicing this form of sex than homosexuals.
bossmanham »

Thu Jan 08, 2009 8:15 pm Agree: 2 Disagree: 0

I think there are catholics who are saved. I would urge them to join a more doctrinally sound church, but if they've repented and put their trust in Jesus, then scripture says they are saved.
aaron.e »

Thu Jan 08, 2009 5:10 pm Agree: 2 Disagree: 0

Let me add that there are some groups which may have been counted as being among the purported "34,000" denominations who, when measured against the authority of the holy, inerrant and God-breathed scriptures and the doctrine therein, do not qualify as Christian, and are utterly rejected as parts of the body of Christ.
aaron.e »

Thu Jan 08, 2009 4:53 pm Agree: 3 Disagree: 0

We should try to tread lightly on this matter. We are talking about the Church of Christ and the Holy Spirit of God. Yes Tallguy, there are many, many denominations in the body of Christ. This is the reality of it. There is no other reality. Therefore, when you slander the body of Christ and say that there is no unity, which there is, you are edging so close to saying something highly regrettable about the power of the Holy Spirit.
Online4Him »

Thu Jan 08, 2009 4:32 pm Agree: 4 Disagree: 0

Tallguy, (Please explain why if you are ALL hearing from the Holy Spirit you don't have unity? There is only one Holy Spirit with only one message not 34000 messages).

I would be more than happy to after you answer those questions in my last posts . . .
aaron.e »

Thu Jan 08, 2009 1:06 pm Agree: 2 Disagree: 0

"...but the Word of God is clear when it comes to dealing with sin in the life of a believer and a non-believer as well."

Amen to that, Believer. We'd be unloving if we were to ignore the sin of our brethren (or those who purport to be our brethren). The Lord has ALWAYS used human agency in the fulfillment of His will, be it evangelism or rebuking and correcting. Look at the book of Joshua: God gave the orders, the Israelites still had to go out and swing the sword. The point is to stand on the authority of the scriptures when doing so, and not on our own. It is when we rebuke on our own authority that we are in supreme danger. We outwardly AGREE with what the Bible says about every sin, and nothing more.
believer »

Thu Jan 08, 2009 11:22 am Agree: 3 Disagree: 0

feet, another typical answer based on relativism, if it feels good do it as long as nobody gets hurt, but the problem is all sin hurts God and these sins along with all other sin sent Jesus Christ to the Cross to die for these sins so that we might be saved. But if you have a problem with calling sin sin then you need to tell Christ He was wrong for clearing out the Temple on two separate occassions along with rebuking Peter and leaving instructions for how to deal with suspected wayward members. But don't stop there you need to rebuke Paul for telling the church at Corinth to put out the member who was willfully sinning and refused to repent and for telling Christians that if they see a brother or sister in sin their to go to them and confront them with their sin but be careful they don't fall into sin. You can hide behind the rationalizing of this by equating it to judging other people, but the Word of God is clear when it comes to dealing with sin in the life of a believer and a non-believer as well.
Daniel Paul »

Thu Jan 08, 2009 11:20 am Agree: 0 Disagree: 1

Storm comes through, power goes out for several hours yesterday and YIKES...I can't even find where I left off!!!
feetxxxl »

Thu Jan 08, 2009 10:41 am Agree: 0 Disagree: 1

"And in fact it would be more harmful to a person to not call sin sin in order to warn the person who is either committing or considering committing that sin or those sins",

where in scripture do you find this. and what part of your deducing something is a sin involves your interpretation.......50%, 40%,70%. yet you credit no part of it being your interpretation. how do you know that whatever part that is yours is not the yeast of the parables.

"Everytime a believer sins it distances them from the closeness and the intimacy God desires to have with them and until they repent of that sin God will not even hear their prayers nor can they have that closeness and intimacy."

you are attempting to tell another believer who is created thru the same spirit , is given the same heart of flesh, whose mind and heart have god's laws written on them, and as well, in who jesus.

you are expressing to him your beliefs.

beliefs are centered around the concept of "i". compared to all the other assets the believer has, where do you think what you ar giving him ranks. i will tell you. it is an obstacle in regards to christ.

gotta go. until next time.
believer »

Thu Jan 08, 2009 10:13 am Agree: 1 Disagree: 0

feet, so if one states that judgement awaits each of us then we are guilty of judging. Plus judging a person is far different than judging sin or sinful behavior by calling it what it is in accordance with the Word of God. And in fact it would be more harmful to a person to not call sin sin in order to warn the person who is either committing or considering committing that sin or those sins, because as God's Word clearly states there are consequences to every choice we make or don't make and especially when it comes to sinful choices, we will either reap those consequences now and/or for non-believers on into eternity. Everytime a believer sins it distances them from the closeness and the intimacy God desires to have with them and until they repent of that sin God will not even hear their prayers nor can they have that closeness and intimacy. For an unbeliever if they don't accept Christ as Savior before they die they are destined for an eternity in hell. Plus as many have stated to you time and time again God's Word several times instructs us to go to brothers and sisters in Christ and rebuke and confront them in love and concern about sin in their life always remembering that restoration of the believer to oneness with God and the Body of Christ as always the goal.
feetxxxl »

Thu Jan 08, 2009 9:39 am Agree: 0 Disagree: 0

again............every day i am awed by how each believer has a uniquely different humanity that entwines their understanding of their faith in christ.
feetxxxl »

Thu Jan 08, 2009 9:33 am Agree: 0 Disagree: 0

do you not know that things that disturb us the most in others is because it is in ourselves.

do you think same does also apply to our judgement as well.
feetxxxl »

Thu Jan 08, 2009 9:28 am Agree: 0 Disagree: 0

Matthew 7:1
[ Judging Others ] "Do not judge, or you too will be judged.

Luke 6:37
[ Judging Others ] "Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven.

John 12:47
"As for the person who hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge him. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save it.

romans2:1You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge the other, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things. 2Now we know that God's judgment against those who do such things is based on truth. 3So when you, a mere man, pass judgment on them and yet do the same things, do you think you will escape God's judgment? 4Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, tolerance and patience, not realizing that God's kindness leads you toward repentance?
believer »

Thu Jan 08, 2009 9:23 am Agree: 1 Disagree: 0

feet, I am not rallying against the enemies of God just stating the reality of what awaits every person both the saved and the unsaved. But what cost John the Baptist his head was that he spoke against the sin of King Herod and if you study the life of the martyrs you will see that for many of them the fact that they spoke against sin and in many cases spoke to the very people who were guilty of committing those sins by name is what caused them to be martyred.
believer »

Thu Jan 08, 2009 9:18 am Agree: 1 Disagree: 0

feet, if the shoe fits wear it, my post was not directed at tallguy specifically but at what I constantly hear from posters to include yourself, who have chosen to make God in their own image. Please show from the Bible where anything I said in that post that is not biblically sound. There will always be consequences for every choice we make or don't make and there will be judgement for both the lost and saved alike, for the lost, the Great White Throne Judgement where they will be judged for their sins and for believers, the Judgement Seat of Christ where our works will be judged and at the first the result will be an eternity spent in hell eternally separated from God and at the other it will determine if we will have any crowns to put at the feet of Christ in glory.
feetxxxl »

Thu Jan 08, 2009 9:13 am Agree: 0 Disagree: 0

the thing that i have marveled about the martyrs, is that in every instance of their execution they never railed about the judgement that would befall their executioners but instead were concerned only that their actions were acceptable to christ.
feetxxxl »

Thu Jan 08, 2009 9:06 am Agree: 0 Disagree: 1

believer

i find it interesting that you rail at tall guy for his catholic understanding and then turn around and throw out salvation with some kind of overbearing sin concept. is it your understanding that your concept of sin is god's concept of sin and that your concept of judgement is god's concept of judgement.

how is that possible......................."your thoughts are not my thoughts"

is not the difference between the sin mass of the log in our eye(which if it fell on us it would crush us,) and the mass of the speck in our brother's eye(which we would need a magnifying glass to see clearly) is our judgement.

yes we know there is judgement, who is to say how that will be parcelled out.

do we stand there and looking at our brother and credit ourselves with knowing how our brother will be judged.
believer »

Thu Jan 08, 2009 8:09 am Agree: 0 Disagree: 0

tallguy, last line change will to we'll, sorry about that.
believer »

Thu Jan 08, 2009 8:08 am Agree: 0 Disagree: 0

tallguy, you can only do what God allows you to do. But I think that's part of the problem with many who profess to be Christians who post on these sites, they tend to limit God and do not see Him as the all-powerful, all-knowing, and ever-present God that He is. They prefer Him to be their Sugar-Daddy who bows to their every whim and desire or a God who is limited by the laws of nature. They forget that He is the God who spoke the world into existence, sent the Great Deluge, brought down the walls of Jericho and destroyed Sodom and Gommorah and most importantly resurrected His Son, Jesus Christ to show the world that anyone who would call upon the name of the Lord will be saved. Yes, for the most part you can do, say, or think what you want or don't want, but as the sermon title from R.G.Lee says, "Payday Someday" when we appear before either the Great Whitethrone Judgement or for believers the Judgement Seat of Christ and will be held accountable for the choices we made or didn't make, the only difference being one judgement will send a person to hell for eternity and the other will be used to determine how many crowns will be able to lay at the feet of Christ in glory.
Wilderness1 »

Thu Jan 08, 2009 7:42 am Agree: 2 Disagree: 0

Tallguy1000 said: "As for me, I see the Catholic Church as an extension of Jesus..."

Coming under the authority of one man supreme who would be called, Sovereign Pontiff, Our Holy Father, Your Holiness, or Most Blessed Father is definitely not an extension of Jesus.
Tallguy1000 »

Thu Jan 08, 2009 5:06 am Agree: 0 Disagree: 2

Online, you know the point I've made. Please explain why if you are ALL hearing from the Holy Spirit you don't have unity? There is only one Holy Spirit with only one message not 34000 messages.

Feet, you're right, we all have our way to worship and adore Jesus Christ. This website is getting tiring, it's the sameold discussion everytime. We would be stronger and more influencial in the world if we broke down the barriers and built bridges between each other. The world laughts at the way we don't get along.

As for me, I see the Catholic Church as an extension of Jesus and you would have to kill me before I would renounce my Catholic Faith! I hope you can you say that about your denomination?
feetxxxl »

Thu Jan 08, 2009 1:04 am Agree: 2 Disagree: 0

wow............i never realized how deeply, catholic doctrine was embedded in its believers.

every day i am awed by how each believer has a uniquely different humanity that entwines their understanding of their faith in christ.
aaron.e »

Thu Jan 08, 2009 1:04 am Agree: 3 Disagree: 0

As I have witnessed, there is as much diversity in the Church of Christ as there are abominations, changes in doctrine, fundamental beliefs, 'correction' of historical interpretation, laws, offices, etc... in the Roman Catholic Church. I think one of the hardest strikes against men has been Satan's "allegorical interpretation" that he has supplanted in the early church. From this, all of the damnable heresy of the RCC and its popery has sprung forth, to the doom of uncountable millions.

Diversity in Christian denominations is nothing, really. We are called to be holy. Those who obey this calling are grounded in an unshakable foundation. Those who disobey are like ships tossed at sea, or get carried away by strange doctrines and possibly into apostasy. Personally, denomination is all about safety. Separation from the world, and from worldliness, is protection. All diversity says is that, yes, those who are justified by Christ still have free will, and some listen better than others to the convicting Spirit of God. When Christ returns, the tares will be uprooted and denomination will be forgotten. But for now, I am a Christian first. A Baptist second.
Online4Him »

Thu Jan 08, 2009 12:52 am Agree: 2 Disagree: 0

Tallguy,

Seriously, there is no need to get upset . . .
Online4Him »

Thu Jan 08, 2009 12:43 am Agree: 0 Disagree: 0

aaron.e,

Amen; nice reference . . .
Online4Him »

Thu Jan 08, 2009 12:42 am Agree: 2 Disagree: 0

Tallguy,

Why do you and others refuse to answer questions . . . ?

Which troubles you the most . . . that there are 34,000 Protestant denominations or is it that these 34,000 Protestants denominations do not accept Romes claims?
aaron.e »

Thu Jan 08, 2009 12:35 am Agree: 3 Disagree: 0

Bishop J. C. Ryle, Excerpt from "The True Church." circa 1877

"This is the only Church which possesses true unity. Its members are entirely agreed on all the weightier matters of religion, for they are all taught by one Spirit. About God, and Christ, and the Spirit, and sin, and their own hearts, and faith, and repentance, and necessity of holiness, and the value of the Bible, and the importance of prayer, and the resurrection, and judgment to come. About all these points they are of one mind. Take three or four of them, strangers to one another, from the remotest corners of the earth; examine them separately on these points; you will find them all of one judgment."

Tallguy, the body of Christ transcends denomination. The different members of the body, hands, feet, etc... are brothers and sisters in Christ. Praise God for allowing there to be unity in diversity! The body is organic, and not an institution. It acts as an organism. It follows its Head as does a human body. Institutions are man made, and contrary to the Biblical, New Testament Church. The moment we assume absolute authority or control over the body, we attempt to supplant the true Head. There can be only one Head. One Head, and many, many servants.
Tallguy1000 »

Thu Jan 08, 2009 12:29 am Agree: 0 Disagree: 2

believer, that's childish! You know full well that God has absolutly no power over you if you choose to exclude Him from your life. He gives us free will. We can choose Him or reject Him. He has no power over that!

Did God have power over Adolph Hitler or Joseph Stalin? NO! These men choose to live ungodly lives, God had no influence as they were killing people.

Was the crucifixation (spelling) of Jesus active or passive? If God cares about every hair on our head, and gives us every breath, then Jesus would have been giving breath to the very men that were Crucifying him.b Yet He willingly accepted His death. This was the most active moment of His life!

Do not accept anything as truth without Love, and do not accept anything as Love without truth.
Tallguy1000 »

Thu Jan 08, 2009 12:20 am Agree: 0 Disagree: 2

Yeah Online, you've all got the Holy Spirit within, you are all solid, and you are ALL hearing from the Holy Spirit. Then PLEASE explain why there are 34,000 PROTESTANT denominations ALL hearing from the Holy Spirit! The Holy Spirit tells you one thing, the guy across the street another thing, and the pastor around the corner another thing. Is the Holy Spirit Schizophrenic?
Online4Him »

Wed Jan 07, 2009 10:23 pm Agree: 2 Disagree: 0

Tallguy, (Our heavenly Father would not leave His children alone to fumble around with no direction.)

Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you (John 14:17, 18).

How does one fumble around with no direction if the Holy Spirit dwells within them?
believer »

Wed Jan 07, 2009 8:36 pm Agree: 0 Disagree: 0

tallguy, so your saying that God who is all-powerful, all-knowing, and ever-present has no power over us regardless of free will?
believer »

Wed Jan 07, 2009 8:34 pm Agree: 2 Disagree: 0

tallguy, why would I want a catechism when I have the Word of God?
Online4Him »

Wed Jan 07, 2009 7:42 pm Agree: 2 Disagree: 0

(1 Tim 3:15 The Church is the foundation and pillar of Truth)

First, Paul does identify the church as Gods household; therefore it must comprise every true Christian, not only their leaders. Next, we are told to (examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith) 2 Corinthians 13:5 . . . this council is not only for individuals but for churches as well. For example, the seven churches in Revelation 2 & 3; we read that the church of Pergamos allowed the teaching of the Nicolaitanes . . . and the church of Thyatira allowed sexual immorality into their congregation . . . etc.

Anyone or any church can claim to have or be the pillar of truth . . . what did Jesus say about truth? He said, Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth (John 17:17) and when Paul visited Ephesus, who did he commit the believers to? He said: (And now, brethren, I commend you to God, and to the word of his grace, which is able to build you up, and to give you an inheritance among all them which are sanctified) Acts 20:32.

Notice that he did not commit them to the magisterium or to the pope but to God and His Word. So, dependence upon the Word of God is seen as the basis for a church being the pillar of truth: Galatians 1:8-9 states: (But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed.
Online4Him »

Wed Jan 07, 2009 7:39 pm Agree: 2 Disagree: 0

(1Tim 3:1, 8, 5:17-Indentifies roles of Bishops, Priests and Deacons & Tit 1:5 -Commission for bishops to ordain Priests)

The New Testament does not teach that there are to be priests in the New Covenant. Instead, the New Testament teaches that all believers are priests. 1 Peter 2:5-9 describes believers as a (holy priesthood) and a (royal priesthood). Again, The New Testament teaches that there are to be elders (1 Timothy 3), deacons (1 Timothy 3), bishops (Titus 1:6-9), and pastors (Ephesians 4:11) but not priests.

Tradition: What the apostles handed down to understand Scripture and to give authentic Christian worship.

(1Cor 11:2 commends them for following Apostolic Tradition)

This verse uses the word (delivered) in the past tense and cannot be used to justify extra biblical doctrines. If the traditions that the RCC teaches were so universal . . . why dont we read about them in scripture?

(2 Thess 2:15 - commands them to keep Traditions)

Again, Paul speaks of those traditions which HAVE BEEN TAUGHT . . . not WHAT WILL BE TAUGHT.

(2 Thess 3:6 shun those acting not according to Tradition)

This verse also speaks in the past tense: after the tradition which he received of us.

(Lk 10:16 Whoever HEARS you Hears me; rejects you, rejects me)

These words for all believers . . . this chapter INCLUDES the 70 disciples who when out two by two.

Infallible Church: (Jn 16:13 Spirit of Truth will guide to all truth) & (Jn 14:16, 26 Holy Spirit with you always, teach/remind you of everything)

This promise is for all believers; for we read: But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if ANY MAN have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his (Romans 8:9).
Online4Him »

Wed Jan 07, 2009 7:34 pm Agree: 2 Disagree: 0

IHS,

Authoritative Church: (MT 28:18-20 Jesus delegates all power to Apostles)

Jesus did give authority to all the apostles . . . to teach the gospel and make disciples of every nation.

(John 20:23: Power to Forgive sins)

(1) John 20:23 nowhere mentions confession of sin. (2) John 20:23 nowhere promises, or even hints, that the authority to forgive sins would be passed on to successors of the apostles. (3) The New Testament nowhere states that the apostles would even have successors to their apostolic authority.

(1Cor 11:23-24-power to offer sacrifice (Eucharist)

This verse does not teach transubstantiation . . . it says: this do in remembrance of me. Also, the Lords Supper is a memorial . . . not a re-sacrifice.

(Lk 10:16 - Power to speak with Christs voice)

Everyone who is in Christ and is indwelt with the Holy Spirit can speak his word: (And John answered and said, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name; and we forbad him, because he followeth not with us. And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us) Luke 9:49, 50.

(Mt: 18:18 Power to legislate) & (Mt 18:17 Power to discipline)

You may want to re-read this verses in their context; start with verse 15 and proceed to verse 22. This council is for the entire church . . . it says: (if two of you); there is nothing here to suggest apostolic succession.

Hierarchy: (Eph 4:11 Church leaders are hierarchical)

Again, re-read this verse in its proper context: But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ. Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men (Ephesians 4:7, 8). These gifts were given for the edification of the church . . . these verses speak nothing of a universal bishop or apostolic successors.
Forgivensinner »

Wed Jan 07, 2009 7:33 pm Agree: 1 Disagree: 0

PS That's His story and I'm sticking to it!
Forgivensinner »

Wed Jan 07, 2009 7:23 pm Agree: 1 Disagree: 0

Tallguy wrote: "Our heavenly Father would not leave His children alone to fumble around with no direction."

With all due respect, Tallguy, but God did not leave His children to fumble around, but gave us Jesus as our Head and His Holy Spirit as our guide. Jesus also made clear His kingdom (the Church) was not earthly, but Spiritual. His church is not a building built on an actual rock/person, but He, Himself is our foundation. His church is His Body to which He adds His people.
feetxxxl »

Wed Jan 07, 2009 6:13 pm Agree: 0 Disagree: 0

"Our heavenly Father would not leave His children alone to fumble around with no direction. God in His Wisdom and love for us has established the Holy Catholic Church to guide His children. And guide us well they do. Look at the holy people this Holy Church has produced over the years."

surely you are aware that the "spirit of god" and "word of god" were throughout the entire old testament.

he didnt leave us alone, he gave us a paraclete to show us all truth. jesus's specific mention indicates a different relationship, because truth now includes christ who has been give all authority, and judgement and lives in us. if christ lives in us why the need for a special leader.

look at all the martyrs the church put to the stake, because they would not succomb to the leading of the church.

case and point was huus 100
years before luther for speaking out against indulgences

surely there were a number of popes who succombed to all manner of evils.
Tallguy1000 »

Wed Jan 07, 2009 5:27 pm Agree: 0 Disagree: 2

and it's the same with Christianity in general Believer, Christ has absolutly no power over you unless you allow it and you submit to Him. You have free will.

You mentioned the catechism you learned as a kid. I'll say it again, throw that one away, it was the Baltimore Catechism, more of a workbook. Get a copy of the Catechism today as written by the Vatican. It's an excellent read!
Tallguy1000 »

Wed Jan 07, 2009 5:23 pm Agree: 0 Disagree: 2

As IHS said, The Church of Jesus Christ which is the Catholic Church has the final authority over the people of God.

And all through biblical history God has left someone in charge to lead His people, for example Moses and Abraham.
It's exactly the same now, it was prophesied in Isiah, then spoken by Jesus where He spoke to Peter I will give you the keys to the kingdom and what you bind will be considered bound in heaven, what you loose....

Peter is mentioned by name 195 times in the NT, notice it's always Peter and the others, Peter and the deciples, Peter is obviously given primacy.

Our heavenly Father would not leave His children alone to fumble around with no direction. God in His Wisdom and love for us has established the Holy Catholic Church to guide His children. And guide us well they do. Look at the holy people this Holy Church has produced over the years.
Tallguy1000 »

Wed Jan 07, 2009 5:17 pm Agree: 0 Disagree: 3

I'm with IHS, I stepped away into the Evengelical world for a while, but now I thank God daily (in Mass) that I have returned and can worship Christ in His fullness through his body the Holy Catholic. Amen!
feetxxxl »

Wed Jan 07, 2009 4:58 pm Agree: 0 Disagree: 0

what is it about paul and the apostles writng about the spirit and the gospel that they winessed and lived in community and the magisterium writing new laws to lead believers from an isolated upscale (in some cases lavish)location that you do not understand?
do you think that authority is synonymous for infallibility?

are you not aware of all the writngs that were not included in scripture?

you repeatedly have transposed the word "teaching" with the word "traditions".
believer »

Wed Jan 07, 2009 4:54 pm Agree: 1 Disagree: 0

ihs, the catholic church has absolutely no power over me whatsoever unless I allow them to and the same is true with any church or denomination, the only power they have over any of their members is that which the members allow them to have.
Forgivensinner »

Wed Jan 07, 2009 4:29 pm Agree: 0 Disagree: 0

IHS,
As sincerely as I can, I ask, is it easier to defer the resposibilities over to the Catholic church and it's heirarchy than to accept that these great responsibilities were given to the individual obedient believer in Him as a gift?
believer »

Wed Jan 07, 2009 4:21 pm Agree: 2 Disagree: 0

ihs, I should have also included many of the written traditions of the catholic church as well do just that.

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