Updated 11:59 pm.EST, Sun November 22, 2009

Society|Tue, Jan. 06 2009 02:32 PM EST

Prop. 8 Backers Blast Calif. Attorney General

By Lisa Leff|Associated Press Writer

SAN FRANCISCO (AP) — Sponsors of California's voter-approved gay marriage ban accused Attorney General Jerry Brown on Monday of advancing a far-fetched legal theory to justify overturning it.

In papers submitted to the state Supreme Court, lawyers for the Protect Marriage coalition argued that Brown had "invented an entirely new theory" by asking the justices to trump the electorate, which approved Proposition 8 to amend the state Constitution to limit marriage to a man and a woman.

"We will not mince words. The attorney general is inviting this court to declare a constitutional revolution," reads the brief co-written by Kenneth Starr, dean of Pepperdine University's law school and former independent counsel who investigated President Bill Clinton.

The competing positions come in a series of legal challenges to Proposition 8 brought after the ballot initiative passed with 52 percent of the vote on Nov. 4. Brown initially said he would defend the measure in his role as attorney general.

But in a dramatic reversal, he changed course two weeks ago and joined same-sex marriage supporters in asking the court to void Proposition 8 and to uphold the estimated 18,000 same-sex unions sanctioned during the four months gay marriage was legal in the state.

Lawyers for the couples, gay rights groups and cities that brought the cases argue that the measure's backers used a flawed process for qualifying the amendment for the ballot.

Brown, however, argues that the amendment itself is unconstitutional because the Supreme Court established marriage as a fundamental right in its May decision striking down previous one man-one woman marriage statutes.

Starr and co-counsel Andrew Pugno maintained in their brief filed Monday that the attorney general is asking the court to assume powers not granted by the Constitution.

"The judiciary is entirely a creature of the Constitution, not an independent, freestanding guardian of minority rights or natural law," they wrote.

In an interview Monday, Brown responded that it was the sponsors of Proposition 8 who have misunderstood the role of the courts in a democratic society.

"Mr. Starr ignores the fundamental doctrine of judicial review and the historic duty of the Supreme Court to guard our fundamental liberties," he said.

Also Monday, lawyers for San Francisco and five other counties, as well as for gay couples who married during the four-month window, asked the court to let stand the existing marriages even if it upholds Proposition 8.

They argued that nothing in the language of Proposition 8 nor the ballot arguments submitted by Protect Marriage made it clear the gay marriage ban was designed to apply retroactively.

Proposition 8's sponsors have argued that the 14-word measure, which holds that "only marriage between a man and a woman is valid or recognized in California," effectively bars the state from acknowledging any same-sex marriages, regardless of when they were sanctioned.

Copyright 2008 Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed.
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  • Tue Jan 20, 2009 8:24 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    No, its not, and you really can't speak to my personal beliefs, no matter how much you'd like to.

  • Tue Jan 20, 2009 7:53 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    You know mike, I have no problem with people in the world being "gay", we expect them to live in sin. I have a big problem with people claiming Christianity and deying the Word in favor of their sin.

    Of course, from Romans chapter 1, it is unbelief, not just sin or even idolatry, that causes one to be given over to the debasement of homosexuality. Read it yourself without the "idolatrous homosexuality" filter the Metro church and other homosexual churches teach to tickle your ears and keep the money coming in. All homosexual sin is unbelief.

  • Tue Jan 20, 2009 4:37 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Delight, I have not called God a liar, but I'm sure you want to believe I do because it makes it so much easier for your thought process: "All gays are bad, gays purposely separate themselves from God." Simply not true! Do we not all sin? Does that mean we're not Christian because we sin? Of course not! To sin you must know you are doing wrong, but I KNOW that I am not doing wrong by loving my partner. You are all too concerned with my goings on and need to be worrying about yourselves because it is very clear that you have some sinful issues that you're not ready or willing to examine.

  • Tue Jan 20, 2009 3:00 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    I have NO evidence at all that you are a true Christian . I don't believe you currently CAN have a relationship with God when you walk in sin. You call God a liar.

    Even the demons believe...they just don't follow.

  • Tue Jan 20, 2009 2:52 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    well, I didn't read of the rich young man to be defending his riches to everyone, he was sorrowful.

    This dialog seems to be tit for tat; we say God's word says thus, and he says no it does not...
    back and forth. If he has a forum by which to defend to the death his homosexuality, does that not make him more entrenched in his own beliefs to the exclusion of even considering Scriptural truth after a while? I don't know for certain but he seems to become more dogmatic in his belief as we continue on.

    btw...I hope the bible scholars are right, but if Joseph did turn away from his riches, it was not because Jesus followed him, Jesus just lets him go. If God is calling Mike, it may not matter what we say.

  • Tue Jan 20, 2009 2:41 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Delight, now you lie as well. I most certainly believe in God. Stop trying to pin me and talk as if I have declared that I don't believe in God when you know it perfectly well to be false. This most certainly is not what Jesus would do. Believer, I don't think its perfectly clear or there would be no room for debate.

  • Tue Jan 20, 2009 2:29 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    delight, the neat thing about the incident with the rich young ruler is that some Bible scholars believe that he might possibly have been Joseph of Arimethea. So there is hope!

  • Tue Jan 20, 2009 2:21 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    If mike doesn't believe God...what makes us think he will believe our words?

  • Tue Jan 20, 2009 2:18 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    mike22685, God does not have to since His original and only design for marriage is perfectly clear and He offers no options to His one and only design for marriage.

  • Tue Jan 20, 2009 1:31 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Believer...

    Consider how Jesus handled the rejection of the Gospel message in the story of the rich young man in the book of Mark 10:17-22.

    After Jesus told him to sell his goods and give to the poor, pick up the cross and follow Him the young man was "sad at this word, and went away sorrowful, for he had great possessions."

    The young man had great enthusiasm for Jesus and eternal life...he actually ran to Jesus. But Jesus found the ONE thing that would hold him back from eternal life. The young man would not give his riches away...riches were his achille's heel just as homosexuality is mike's; the one thing he will not give up for eternal life.

    He went away and Jesus let him go...Jesus did not follow or run after him and say, 'reconsider my invitation'. Jesus let him go, perhaps we should consider doing the same for mike.

  • Tue Jan 20, 2009 1:13 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Delight, no reason to speak like a jerk. You interpret plenty for yourself.

  • Tue Jan 20, 2009 1:10 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Believer...mike's word is more important than God's Word. His has all the interpretations.

  • Tue Jan 20, 2009 12:41 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    No, its not. God's word does not say anything about gay marriage, so it most certainly is up to interpretation.

  • Tue Jan 20, 2009 12:38 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    mike22685, no that's God's Word versus your beliefs.

  • Tue Jan 20, 2009 12:22 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Believer, that's your belief verses mine.

  • Tue Jan 20, 2009 11:04 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    that depends on how you interpret 'lost'. :)

  • Tue Jan 20, 2009 10:42 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    mike22685, the only problem is God will never support same-sex marriage since that would woefully violate His original and only design for marriage. So no matter how you twist it, as long as you and your partner have sexual intimacy you will always be sinning in the sight of God.

  • Tue Jan 20, 2009 10:40 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    I'm quite sure you are just as lost as anybody else on this page.

  • Tue Jan 20, 2009 10:31 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    perhaps those who you know and hang with are lost...I'm told the gate is narrow but not impossible.

  • Tue Jan 20, 2009 10:01 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Not to sound like a post modern philosopher, but aren't we all lost to some degree? :)

  • Tue Jan 20, 2009 9:44 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    mtg says-"so it's really up to you what you choose to believe..."

    What you miss, mtg... unlike carnal Christians, I don't choose to believe anything. I have the MIND OF CHRIST! For "who has known the mind of the LORD that he may instruct Him?" But we have the mind of Christ." 1 Cor 2:16

    You spend a lot of time patting Mike on the back...hmmm. I don't need YOU to interpret Mike for me...I don't even need Mike to interpret himself to me. God, through His word and the understanding that comes from being Filled with the Holy Spirit reveals what fruit comes by way of True Salvation. Mike is lost and what's worse...he really couldn't care less. So, mtg, follow Mike and fall in a ditch as well.

    Luke 6:39 "Can the blind lead the blind? Will they not both fall into the ditch?"

  • Tue Jan 20, 2009 9:09 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    All the more reason to support gay marriage :)

  • Tue Jan 20, 2009 7:15 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    mike22685, are you having sex outside of marriage? Yes, my partner and I are having sex outside of marriage. Then according to the Word of God you are committing sin!

  • Tue Jan 20, 2009 1:25 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    No, God never speaks to sex within a committed gay relationship. He certainly condemns any and all sexual relationships for the purpose of getting off.

  • Mon Jan 19, 2009 9:11 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    mike22685, as I've said all along I don't question your love for your partner nor do I call your phileo love for your partner sin, but it is the sexual intimacy that you say you are having with your partner that God calls sin.

  • Mon Jan 19, 2009 9:08 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    mtg, yes, I am proud that my son has the ability to love sinners while hating sin, but neither he nor I or even his Mom can take credit for that ability, but must give that credit to God who gave him and all Chrsitians that ability. And although it's difficult at times to do that, but by the grace and help of God we can and must if we are to be an effective witness to the lost.

  • Mon Jan 19, 2009 8:55 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    I am happy that your son turned out well, believer. My wife and I were marvelling the other night at how wonderfully our 4 children "turned out." (The youngest was born in 1979.) It is such a delight to see these kind, mature - and, yes, Christian - people who are contributing to our world. Our oldest and are youngest are married. For what it is worth, the two in between are well adjusted and quite clearly heterosexual, like their two married siblings. I can tell you that I would have no fear for one of my children or for their mother and me, however, if any one of them wanted to marry a person of the same sex - as long as it was a truly loving relationship on which a good life could be built. I will overlook the inordinate "pride" you display in your son's loving the sinner but not the sin. You and I are just proud of our children, and we can't help it.

  • Mon Jan 19, 2009 6:51 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    believer, when I came out to my parents they were initially devastated and thought it was something they had done. Eventually, they came to realize being a gay man was only a small part of my personality and they have since come a long way since 6 years ago. They embrace my partner as part of the family, as does my grandmother, and they are all fundamentalist Catholics. Love wins out Believer, and all of them have been able to see there is no sin in our deep love for one another.

  • Mon Jan 19, 2009 6:00 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    mtg, unconditional love is not a license to sin and God's Word is clear if we are truly a child of His and we sin He will discipline us and if He does not then that is proof that we are not a child of His. So can I as a father do any less for my son when he sins. Your view of unconditional love may very well have led unsaved people to believe they were saved when in truth they were not. As for my son, he is very happily married and he and I still as we always did have a very good relationship with one another. Plus, there have been several times he has thanked his Mom and I for the way we raised him and the Christian morals and values we taught him. Plus he also sees the sexual practices of homosexuality as a sin yet while in college shared his townhouse with a homosexual who he still considers a friend. So you see mtg it is very possible to hate the sin without hating the sinner.

  • Mon Jan 19, 2009 4:07 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    My point, believer, is that Mike seems to display more fruits of the spirit than most other "Christians" on this site. Perhaps more than you showed your sinner son? How is he doing these days - with the unconditional love you said you showed him?

  • Mon Jan 19, 2009 3:05 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    mtg, and your point is? That somehow if my son or grandchild were to tell me he/she thinks their a homosexual I would change my mind with regards to God's original and only design for marriage and sexual intimacy? I don't think so because when my son had sex with a girl he was dating that did not change my mind with regards to pre-marital sex being a sin nor did any other sin he committed growing up lead me to change my mind with regards to what God called his behavior. He called it sin so therefore I called it sin. But before you jump off the deep end I do not consider the fact that a person considers themself to be a homosexual a sin, but when a person acts outside of God's original design for either marriage or sexual intimacy that is a sin and that's what God calls it so that is what I call it. Unlike you I do not patronize sinners with regards to their sinful behavior to include myself, because in patronizing them you are not helping them but only crippling them by making them think they are Christians when they are not or if indeed they are a Christian keeping them from enjoying the close intimate relationship God desires to have with them and keeping them from becoming the person God wants them to be, because they can't as long as they are living with unconfessed sin in their life and/or living in sin.

  • Mon Jan 19, 2009 12:02 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    MTG, many thanks for the kind words, and the same goes for you.

  • Mon Jan 19, 2009 11:56 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Delight, you and I certainly read Mike differently. You wrote: "I read put downs from you of others who disagree with you...you get very nasty as from what I understand your service was terminated at least once for this reason. You spend an inordinate amount of time posting here which leads me to believe you are not a content or happy person. This is no theory but come from the words you have written."

    Seems to me that Mike is among the kindest and LEAST judgemental people on this Web site (thougfh I know we all have occasional lapses and say nasty things which we may or may not deeply feel). I think Mike posts here so much because he is trying to help some of you. I don't know why he cares. I mean, I don't really know any of you folks, and I don't really care much what you believe. I assume that God gave you the same good mind that he gave most people - so it's really up to you what you choose to believe. It just seems to me that Mike does not want to be stereotyped - and I think he has a bit of aa burden for people who spend somuch time being upset by the way another person lives. I could be wrong (as I have been many times), but I think I can see Mike for who he is. It would do some of you good to meet a "Mike" that you could talk with. You might release some of the burdens you are holding up.

  • Mon Jan 19, 2009 11:49 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    You know, when God wants to prune me, He put other people in my path. If I refuse to be pruned, He uses my relatives. If I still refuse to learn anything, He will use my own family! Even my wife! (How dare HE?!?) Perhaps God will need to give delight or prophet or believer a gay daughter or son (or grandchild) one day - just for pruning purposes.

  • Sun Jan 18, 2009 9:04 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Delight, again, you assume and twist so many words to try and paint me in a bad light. I most certainly have talked about my relationship with God before, and I don't think that relationship has anything to do with an ability to quote from the Bible verbatim. I am quite proud of my relationship with my partner, although I rarely talk about our sex life because that is something very private. I am a very happy person, but thoroughly enjoy a good debate, hence why I come here so often. Saying that I am selfless does not show a lack of humility, but it is a defense when someone calls me selfish without knowing anything about me other than the fact that I am in love with another man. Delight, don't tell me about attacking someone or opening my heart when it is sadly apparent how little you look at yourself. You jump down my throat for each thing I say, but I can't recall a time you talk about your faith or your issues; rather, you focus entirely on mine. Why is that?

  • Sun Jan 18, 2009 6:40 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Mike-I don't read anywhere you say anything about your relationship with God but I see a lot of references to your beau and sex life which you seem to be very proud of. I see no use of God's Word, other than to use against God and Christians; misquoted and ripped out of context.

    I read put downs from you of others who disagree with you...you get very nasty as from what I understand your service was terminated at least once for this reason. You spend an inordinate amount of time posting here which leads me to believe you are not a content or happy person. This is no theory but come from the words you have written.

    "I believe the Spirit talks through my heart".

    We hear the "spirit" that talks through your words, the words that come from your heart. We do not recognize this spirit as tthe Holy Spirit we know, there is no "interpretation" of that, Mike. We cannot be ALL wrong and you the only one right.
    "I am actually one of the most selfless people"; this is actually like saying I'm a very humble person, which in itself negates any humility. I hope you will consider that you may be in the process of being given over to your sinful desire and understand that God will not continually strive with you and that He must give you over as he will not force you to come to true Salvation against your will.
    Before you punch out a nasty reply to me on your keyboard-STOP- and consider all of the words you have heard from Believer and others that have tried to point you in the right dirction and humble your heart before God. If you find that you are angry at my words to you-please realize...the spirit within you is not God's.

  • Sun Jan 18, 2009 5:17 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    mike22685, not accusing just stating a fact!

  • Sun Jan 18, 2009 5:01 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    You don't know that because your interpretation could be wrong for all you know.

  • Sun Jan 18, 2009 3:57 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    mike22685, but if the "spirit" you're listening to is telling you anything that violates, contradicts, or supersedes God's Word it is not God's Holy Spirit.

  • Sun Jan 18, 2009 3:50 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Delight, there's a theory that when people have a stereotype, they actively seek things that confirm their stereotype and ignore things that might negate them. I most certainly have talked about my relationship with God plenty of times, which you strive to negate and claim I must be praying to some God different than yours. I am actually one of the most selfless people you'd ever meet, but you give the impression that you could care less to know about that.

    Believer, I don't listen to men only, but I believe the Spirit talks through my heart as well as through other people.

  • Sun Jan 18, 2009 2:27 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    mike22685, I was not speaking for you but for myself and I believe delight, but your choice is this, listen to men like mtg or listen to God through His Holy Spirit and His Word, it's your call all the way.

  • Sun Jan 18, 2009 1:49 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    and of course, mike, no adversary, no roaring lion, right? I've yet to see you advocate God as much as you do your sexual preferrence...so no God, either?

    It's all about mike.

  • Sun Jan 18, 2009 8:10 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Believer, don't speak for me, MTG is actually quite the amazing person. Delight was not attempting to make me a better person (he/she?) was attempting to make me look ungodly by saying I pray to man when in fact that was not what I said at all. Rather than read what I was saying (which i thought was simple, but perhaps I'll have to break it down next time) Delight took it out of context...for what reason? Because you want to show me how a real Christian acts? I don't think so!

  • Sun Jan 18, 2009 7:18 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    mtg, no, we're trying to give Mike22685 the help he needs to have victory over sin in his life so that he can become the person God wants him to be in order to be able to join God in effectively reaching the lost for Christ. God's Word says nothing is impossible with God, we can do all things through Christ who strengthens us, and as a child of God He will give us whatever we ask as long as it's for our best and in accordance with His Will and Word. Sure sounds like a winning formula to me, in fact the only thing missing is a person who is not wholeheartedly surrendered to the Lordship of Christ and the control of God's Holy Spirit. Your patronizing of Mike is not helping him on bit it is only crippling him.

  • Sun Jan 18, 2009 1:55 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    These people, Mike, love to "nail" something or to say "You lose" in one way or another. They are busy separating themselves from anyone who does not walk the lockstep walk. Who was the intelligent poster who used to be here? He was quite a literalist, a fundamentalist. I can't recall his name. he was a clear thinker, though too conservative for me, of course. Anyway, he wrote once, "After a while, I will stop speaking to these people." (meaning, I think, people like you and me, Mike) Do you ever wonder if you and I should say the same thing? It is dispiriting to fight such negativity every evening. Hoping all's well with you.....good night.

  • Sun Jan 18, 2009 1:13 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Delight, you blatantly ignored what I wrote in my post! It was "christians" like YOURSELF who told me to pray, not God. You nailed nothing, but you're completely content in spreading a lie to smear someone else. You are not a Christian, you disgust me.

  • Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:55 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    So, why do you need God and Christanity? Why not be an atheist?

  • Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:51 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    I didn't assume, mike, I nailed it.

    "In fact, I didn't pray God's will, I prayed man's.."
    You do not trust in God, you trust in man.
    " so I did all I possibly could and nothing happened" Yeah, no doubt.
    Man cannot save you and deliver you out of your sin.
    I know you from what I read from your writings...Satan has devoured you.

  • Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:36 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Delight, homosexuality isn't a behavior. Having sex with someone of the same sex is behavior, but even if I didn't date or have sex with anyone, I would still be gay because of my intrinsic attraction to another person. How could you possibly assume what was prayed? In fact, I didn't pray God's will, I prayed man's, and man's will was that I change from being gay. i had many "christians" telling me I was sinful and going to hell if I didn't pray, so I did all I possibly could and nothing happened. Don't you dare assume you know something about my struggle as if its some cookie cutter story.

  • Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:23 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    From another post: "I have tried before in the name of God, then I became suicidal. I don't believe that God loves me so much he'd rather see me die than be gay"

    My point exactly...what was prayed? Certainly not God's Will. Who made you suicidal? God? No I think not...more like something Satan would do:

    "Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil walks about like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour". "1Peter 5:8.

    Satan knows sin separates you from God. I daresay if he cannot cause you to die in your sin, he will be satisfied to see you blinded by sin and live a life not pleasing to God.

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