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Education|Thu, Jan. 08 2009 02:15 PM EST

Study: Religious Schools Failing to Prepare Clergy to Address Sexuality Issues

By Aaron J. Leichman|Christian Post Reporter

Two religious institutions behind a recent survey of 36 leading seminaries and rabbinical schools claim that most faith-based institutions are failing to prepare the next generation of clergy to address sexuality issues in ministry.

The survey, part of the “Sex and the Seminary” study, found that sexuality courses are largely absent from most seminary curricula and degree requirements. Furthermore, at most institutions, students can graduate without studying sexual ethics or taking a single sexuality-based course.

“This study challenges all of us who are charged with ministerial formation to look closely at the institutional environment we create to prepare our students to be active and informed – and hence to effect people from the pulpit and in the public square," commented the Rev. Dr. Serene Jones, president of Union Theological Seminary in New York, which partnered with the Religious Institute on Sexual Morality, Justice, and Healing for the study.

For the study, a survey was distributed to 36 leading seminaries and rabbinical schools of diverse size and geographic location, representing a range of Christian, Jewish and Unitarian Universalist traditions. Each institution was evaluated on criteria that measured content in the curriculum; institutional commitment to sexuality and gender equity (e.g., the existence of anti-discrimination, sexual harassment and full inclusion policies); and advocacy and support for sexuality-related issues. The criteria were developed by an advisory group of seminary deans, faculty and clergy with expertise in sexuality.

What the survey found was that more than 90 percent of the seminaries surveyed do not require full-semester, sexuality-based courses for graduation; two-thirds of the seminaries do not offer a course in sexuality issues for religious professionals; and three-quarters do not offer a course in lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender (LGBT) studies.

And with greater attention being placed today on the increasingly active homosexual community, greater understanding of sexuality issues is essential for today’s clergy, some argue.

"With so many congregations embroiled in controversy over sexual orientation issues, or struggling to address teenage sexuality, or concerned about sexual abuse, there is an urgent need for ordained clergy who understand the connections between religion and sexuality," said the Rev. Debra W. Haffner, director of the multi-faith Religious Institute. "Seminaries must do more to prepare students to minister to their congregants and be effective advocates for sexual health and justice."

According to frequently referenced 2007 Barna Group report, young Christians largely criticize church leaders for making homosexuality a "bigger sin" than anything else and for not helping them apply the biblical teaching on homosexuality to their friendships with gays and lesbians. Overall, 80 percent of young churchgoers say present-day Christianity is "anti-homosexual."

"Religious leaders have a unique opportunity, and moral obligation, to help congregations and communities wrestle with the complexities of sexual health and justice," stated Union Seminary’s Jones. "Is there any subject more important and more on-the-ground crucial than sexual health and human flourishing?”

Since the recent unveiling of “Sex and the Seminary: Preparing Ministers for Sexual Health and Justice,” the team behind the study has been recommending that seminaries and religious denominations develop and require competencies in sexuality for ordination to ministry. Most denominations currently do not require ministerial candidates to be competent in sexual health and education beyond sexual harassment prevention, they noted in the study.

The researchers also recommend that the Association of Theological Schools, the accrediting body for U.S. seminaries, integrate sexuality education into its standards for ministerial formation.

“It (the study) calls on seminaries to strengthen their curricular offerings and inclusion policies, invest in faculty development and continuing education, and pursue collaboration with other institutions and advocacy groups to expand educational opportunities for seminarians regarding sexuality issues,” they stated.

According to the Religious Institute, copies of the “Sex and the Seminary” report will be sent to every seminary and rabbinical school in the United States. The report has also been made available online at www.religiousinstitute.org/SeminaryReport.html.

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  • Fri Jan 16, 2009 11:00 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    feet,

    you said, "your contention is that under the new covenant we are still under and led by the law"

    You have troubles differentiating living by the law and obeying everything that Jesus commanded. The whole purpose of the law was God's way of showing that man cannot save himself because he can not live up to the law. Everyone of us is a sinner and deserves death based upon the law. Only by true faith in Jesus Christ are we saved as He cleanses us of our sins as long as we are repentant of our sins. The True Spirit convicts us of our sins and steers us away from wanting to continue living a sinful lifestyle.

    The new covenant is not license to continue to sin without repentance. To ignore the NT teachings that God designed sexual intimacy to be enjoyed only within the bonds of marriage between one man and one woman (any other sexual activity is immorality; aka sin, evil) indicates that person lacks the Spirit of Truth. If God says homosexual behavior is a sin that is the ultimate source for proof, not unless you don't consider God the Creator of heaven and earth and you look to man as the higher authority to reword God's truth.

    I gave you NT passages that discuss homosexuality as evil. How much clearer can that be?

    You want to justify the behavior on how friendly two homosexuals can be. I suppose you can then apply that logic to two adulterers, those committing incest, prostitutes that really, really care about their johns, cohabitators, pedophiles, etc. Where do you draw the line as to what is acceptable and what is not acceptable?

    Where do you go to determine what is good and what is evil based on the verse below if not to God's word?

    Dear friend, do not imitate what is evil, but what is good. The one who does good is of God; the one who does evil has not seen God. 3 John 1:11 (HCSB)

    Trust in the Lord with all your heart,
    and do not rely on your own understanding;
    think about Him in all your ways,
    and He will guide you on the right paths.
    Don't consider yourself to be wise;
    fear the Lord and turn away from evil.
    Prov 3:5-7 (HCSB)

    God, please open up his eyes and mind.

  • Fri Jan 16, 2009 1:27 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    hawk

    "If you contend you love Jesus and obey everything He has commanded then I contend 1John1:8-10 is fitting as to love Jesus and obey everything He has commanded means to repent of all sexual immorality rather than to continue attempting to justify it."


    we all agree that there is sexual impurity, immmorality and debauchery. our difference of understanding is whether homosexuality is any part of that.



    your contention is that under the new covenant we are still under and led by the law. in this case the law is about same sex sexual intimacy. YOUR RELIANCE IS TOTALLY ON YOUR UNDERSTANDING OF THE LAW. because you cannot explain how it is a sin, or how it comes against the 2nd commandment which is the summation of all the law. you have no personnal witness of the fruit of the spirit of married homosexual believers. a witness that we are called to in the spirit of testing in 1 thess5:21, and in the love of 1john 4:20, and in the fellowship of walking in the light of 1john1.

    your contention is that it is your interpretation of the law, and your subsequent judgement that is your love of 1john4:20, rather than a spirit, fellowship witness of the light of 1john1"that which we have looked at, which we have seen with our eyes and our hands have touched". this is the eye witness that we are called to by christ's words "you will recognize them by their fruit"

    listing scripture is no substitute for saying how the words of those verses say that homosexuality is a sin.

  • Thu Jan 15, 2009 10:44 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    feetxxxl

    Your question had been answered days ago. Perhaps that is why I included the quote from Romans. The scripture I provided in my last message is after the fact for ignoring the truth of scripture provided to you by others and myself.

    The problem is the spirit you claim you are lead by is not the same Spirit I am lead by; my Spirit testifies to the truth and discerns lies.
    If you contend you love Jesus and obey everything He has commanded then I contend 1John1:8-10 is fitting as to love Jesus and obey everything He has commanded means to repent of all sexual immorality rather than to continue attempting to justify it.

    "Several deviations of sexual behavior are condemned in the biblical teachings: homosexuality (Lev. 18:22; Rom. 1:26-27; 1 Cor. 6:9-10); bestiality (Ex. 22:19; Lev. 18:23); incest (Lev. 18:6-18; 1 Cor. 5); rape (Ex. 22:16-17; Deut. 22:23-29); adultery (Ex. 20:14; Deut. 22:22); prostitution (Prov. 7:1-27; 29:3;); fornication (1 Cor. 6:9-10; compare Matt. 19:9). These are all declared to be outside of the will of God for man and woman who are called to live together in monogamous fidelity within the covenant of marriage. The only other option is the giftedness of celibacy.
    Intimate sexual behavior outside of marriage is considered sexual immorality in the biblical perspective. Within the limits of marriage, sex is for procreation of children, the enhancement of the one-flesh relationship [between one man and one woman], and the pleasure of the married couple whose love can be nourished thereby. Outside of the limits established by God, sex becomes an evil and destructive force in human life, calling for God's redemptive power to deliver humans trapped therein. Marital sexual love is both a gift and a responsibility from God to be consecrated by the Word and prayer. -Holman Bible Dictionary

    Take Care and meditate not on justifying but rather on all the discussions you've encountered here and the Words of God in the scriptures offered you.

    God, please open up his eyes and mind.

  • Thu Jan 15, 2009 10:07 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    believer,
    I get frequent E-mails from worldviewweekend and Brannon Howse. I like that site. He refers to David Noebel and has him attend at some of the weekend gatherings. That's a good source of information. Have you taken the worldview test on that site?

    Thanks
    God Bless

  • Thu Jan 15, 2009 7:59 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    hawk, I'm not sure of the actual website, but it includes articles from people like Norman Geisler, David Brannon, Josh McDowell and others. It could be under worldviewweekend(?). I get it automatically every other day or so.

  • Thu Jan 15, 2009 4:39 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    reedit

    hawk

    not only have you refused to answer my questions regarding spirit. but in addition even the referenced verses you have referred to, you have refused to explain how the words of those verses say homosexulaity is a sin?

    all this and you are without one scintilla of personnal witness to support what you claim to be the truth.

    without personnal witness, the kind of 1john1, there is no truth.

  • Thu Jan 15, 2009 4:37 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    hawk

    not only have you refused to answer my questions regarding spirit. but in addition even the referenced verses you have referred to, you have refused to explain how the words of those verses say how homosexulaity is a sin?

    all this and you are without one scintilla of personnal witness to support what you claim to be the truth.

    without personnal witness, the kind of 1john1, there is no truth.

  • Thu Jan 15, 2009 1:37 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    feet,
    You failed to read the reference I posted; otherwise you'd understand. You also failed to recognize the difference between economic Marxism and cultural Marxism. The Marxists of the Frankfurt School determined that cultural Marxism has to be in place before economic Marxism is attempted, again.

    Homosexuality in the church is part of the agenda of the cultural Marxists; it is not of God but of false prophets who are selling the lies of Satan.

    Many have referenced and proved on this site that homosexual behavior is a sin according to God's truth. You are unable to cite from scripture that specifically nullifies God's teaching that homosexual behavior along with other inappropriate sexual behaviors is "sexual immorality." I've demonstrated where the lie originated as far as being planted in the church.

    And because they did not think it worthwhile to have God in their knowledge, God delivered them over to a worthless mind to do what is morally wrong.
    Romans 1:28 (HCSB)

    If we say, "We have no sin," we are deceiving ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say, "We have not sinned," we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.
    1 John 1:8-10 (HCSB)

    I do believe the spirit you always refer to is the spirit of error, not the Spirit of Truth.

    God, pleae open up his eyes.

  • Thu Jan 15, 2009 1:32 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    HAWK

    anybody is entitled to believe anything they want.

    but as of yet, no one has shown how homosexuality comes against the fruit of the holy spirit or the 2nd commandment. in other words are unable to show how in regards to the spirit of christ the essence of homosexuality, is even a sin.

    all evidence shows the reverse.

    homosexuals not found wanting in any sector of society compared to heterosexuality.

    homosexuals bond in the same spirit as heterosexuals for a shared committed life together. and believing homosexual marriages are filled with the fruit of the spirit in the same way that believing heterosexual marriages are.

    surely you are not saying that the fruit of the holy spirit is the same as the fruit of the spirit of satan.

    marxism is about economics and challenges other economic systems such as capitialism,

    it amazes me how believers hold christianity as a religion to exclusively protecting families. when in truth as has been historically shown, the teaching and spirit of christ has caused stress within the family. in the age of theocracy royal families went to war with each other over the instituting one denomination over another....................one belief system warring against another..

    Luke 14:26
    "If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters,yes, even his own life,he cannot be my disciple.

    34"Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35 For I have come to turn
    " 'a man against his father,
    a daughter against her mother,
    a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law -
    36a man's enemies will be the members of his own household.'[e]

    point is you cannot serve 2 masters you will hate one and love the other. in truth you cannot serve family and serve christ. this has become obvious by all the venom expressed by believers toward anything they feel threatens the family, like you are doing now.

    the 2ndcommandment does not say love your family as yourself.
    in fact if there is any mitigation of the love for ones neighbor, for the sake of family........................IT IS AGAINST CHRIST.

    we know that christ chided believers, who only loved those, who loved them.


    Matthew 6:24
    "No one can serve two masters. Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and Money.

    some have said that this teaching is only about god and money. no!.................it is talking about serving any 2 masters.

  • Thu Jan 15, 2009 12:51 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    HAWK

    anybody is entitled to believe anything they want.

    but as of yet, no one has shown how homosexuality comes against the fruit of the holy spirit or the 2nd commandment. in other words are unable to show how in regards to the spirit of christ the essence of homosexuality, is even a sin.

    all evidence shows the reverse.

    homosexuals not found wanting in any sector of society compared to heterosexuality.

    homosexuals bond in the same spirit as heterosexuals for a shared committed life together. and believing homosexual marriages are filled with the fruit of the spirit in the same way that believing heterosexual marriages are.

    surely you are not saying that the fruit of the holy spirit is the same as the fruit of the spirit of satan.

    marxism is about economics and challenges other economic systems such as capitialism,

    it amazes me how believers hold christianity as a religion to exclusively protecting families. when in truth as has been historically shown, the teaching and spirit of christ has caused stress within the family. in the age of theocracy royal families went to war with each other over the instituting one denomination over another....................one belief system warring against another..

    Luke 14:26
    "If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters—yes, even his own life—he cannot be my disciple.

    34"Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35 For I have come to turn
    " 'a man against his father,
    a daughter against her mother,
    a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law -
    36a man's enemies will be the members of his own household.'[e]

    point is you cannot serve 2 masters you will hate one and love the other. in truth you cannot serve family and serve christ. this has become obvious by all the venom expressed by believers toward anything they feel threatens the family, like you are doing now.

    the 2ndcommandment does not say love your family as yourself.
    in fact if there is any mitigation of the love for ones neighbor, for the sake of family........................IT IS AGAINST CHRIST.

    we know that christ chided believers, who only loved those, who loved them.


    Matthew 6:24
    "No one can serve two masters. Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and Money.

    some have said that this teaching is only about god and money. no!.................it is talking about serving any 2 masters.

  • Thu Jan 15, 2009 10:15 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Glad to see you still discussing this issue of homosexuality within the church. Church history is one aspect to consider with this discussion.

    Acceptance of homosexuality within some liberal, apostate denominations has occured just within the last 30 years or so. The root cause of this is infiltration of the recent phenomenon of cultural Marxism (aka political correctness). The goal of the cultural Marxists is to destroy our Judeo-Christian society by attacking the family and the church; to create the new Communist Man ready to accept "change" to a Marxist based, socialist society dominated with pluralism. Some in the church are caving-in due to the infiltraton of this little bit of yeast. Primary indoctrination is taking place in our govt schools and by our mass media sources.

    Proponents of homosexuality in the church appear to be deconstructionists and are unable to interpret the Bible in a traditional, orthodox manner and end up with twisted scripture and inventing concepts that aren't there.

    Cultural Marxism comes from the Frankfurt School in the form of Critical Theory.

    "To achieve this, the Critical Theorists of the Frankfurt School recognized that traditional beliefs and the existing social structure would have to be destroyed and then replaced. The patriarchal social structure would be replaced with matriarchy; the belief that men and women are different and properly have different roles would be replaced with androgyny; and the belief that heterosexuality is normal would be replaced with the belief that homosexuality is equally "normal."

    It appears our homosexual proponents here are captives of these cultural Marxist (Satan's) lies. May God open their eyes.
    http://www.freecongress.org/centers/cc/index.aspx

  • Thu Jan 15, 2009 5:07 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    feetxxxl
    you have said....
    "i know of no scripture that says unless there was a ceremony it is a sin."

    This statement confuses me. I don't know why you are searching for any ceremonial justification. There is nothing about this in my comments.

    Please do not add assumptions that may divert attention off the focus of our comments.

    The sin of homosexuality is the sexual act.

    Christ even went as far as to emphasize that if you have already commited the sin in your heart (goes to intent meaning you don't care what God's Word says even before the act is done), then you have already sinned.

  • Wed Jan 14, 2009 11:37 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    halver

    my understanding is that marriage is more about what the heart is given over to, in commitmenmt to cherish another, than whether a couple is united by ceremony, or whether it is recognized by the state.

    the thing about marriage among believers is that christ is included in the marriage. but given that the divorce numbers are the same both in the church and out of the church. it seems even that may no longer be a factor.

    you have a witness in your own family. hopefully your relationship is of 1john 4:20. are these bonded relationships any less of the spirit than those of heterosexuals doing the same thing.

    then its not about orientation but about being given to something else.

    paul speaks only of having a wife. i know of no scripture that says unless there was a ceremony it is a sin.

  • Wed Jan 14, 2009 5:05 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    feetxxxl
    You have said....
    "has it ever occured to you that you are without any witness of what are talking about"

    "what do you think is more important........the spirit in their lives or the understanding in your head?"

    Perhaps we can emphasize the small "s" in self-spirit as opposed to the bigger "S" as in the Holy Spirit.

    There are no homosexual couples in my family (immediate or otherwise) that are lawfully married.

    The homosexual couples in my family are either in the "process of courtship" or they are living as though they are married.

    Where there is sin, the truth of the Word of God is distorted.

  • Tue Jan 13, 2009 11:02 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Hyperion, you claim I take the word of God out of context....nope, that would be many others on here. My entire goal is to put it back in context.

  • Tue Jan 13, 2009 11:00 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Hawk, a discussion doesn't end because you twist our words to your own means. That man had a theory, and the fact that I interpret the Bible differently than you doesn't mean a thing. Perhaps your persistent belief proves his point rather than mine.

  • Tue Jan 13, 2009 9:40 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    halver

    has it ever occured to you that you are without any witness of what are talking about.

    do you actually know any homosexuals believers that are married? have youu ever witnessed the spirit that they acknowledge each other? have you ever worshipped and shared the spirit of christ with them? have you ever actually loved them..............as required in 1john4:20?

    isnt all this the essence of christ?

    what do you think is more important........the spirit in their lives or the understanding in your head?

  • Tue Jan 13, 2009 9:31 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    halver

    "Without the sex you have just a relationship. And the bible does not have a problem with this unless the two are unevenly yoked."

    that's amazing

    i assume that you look at marriage, because of its devotion, faithfulness, intimacy and cherishing as one of the greatest among human relationships.

    that's what homosexual believers have in their marriages. yet you say the sex in these marriage is what defilies them.
    how is it that sex defiles homosexual marriages but is affirming and is an expression of that devotion and commitment in heterosexual ones and frequency and satisfaction of sexual intimacy is encouraged not only by counselors , but also scripture itself.

    1cor7The husband should fulfill his marital duty to his wife, and likewise the wife to her husband. 4The wife's body does not belong to her alone but also to her husband. In the same way, the husband's body does not belong to him alone but also to his wife. 5Do not deprive each other except by mutual consent and for a time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer. Then come together again so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self-control. 6I say this as a concession, not as a command.


    if your comment is, paul is only .a addressing heterosexual marriages. of course he is. why would he be addressing the less than 3% of the population (assuming there existed anything resembling gay marriage) rather than the more than the 97% of the population.

    yet, jesus more than accountedfor gay marriage when he said that "we would recognize them by their fruit."

    since believing gay marriages have the same mutual ;love, devotion. affection etc as believing heterosexual marriages, they also are of god.


    to continue to claim that it is against some god-created regulation, seeks to ressurect the old covenant relationship to the law and deny the authority of christ and the holy spirit. this .denys all that paul says is our relation to the law in romans, and denys what hebrews 8 says about the old covenant. and tries to resurrect the old covenant relationship to the law as in deut 28.

  • Tue Jan 13, 2009 4:34 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    For them who have the ears to hear, let the hear what the Spirit is saying to the church.

    For them who do not have the ears to hear, may they desire it and God grant it.

  • Tue Jan 13, 2009 2:21 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    HyperionOverseer

    why waste your time in accusation consider instead showing how the words of the scriptures you stand on say homosexuality is a sin.

  • Tue Jan 13, 2009 2:18 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    hawk

    "You gave it a good try but are unable to cite scripture that specifically refutes the fact that homosexual behavior is one of the sexually immoral acts that God specifially describes a number of times in both the OT and NT. It's definitely a lifestyle of the flesh Vs the Spirit. "

    that was the attitude of the believing south prior to the civil war " show me a scripture that says that ethnic slavery is against god and an intolerable evil, since every scripture is clearly positive about enslaving pagans."

    god never described homosexuality as an immoral act. he prohibited it under the old covenant, where not all prohibitions of themselves were sins.

    to embrace an understanding that we still live by regulation whose essence is apart from loving ones neighbor as oneself, is to deny, that under the new covenant all law is summed up by the second commandment.

    to say that we are still under the law is to deny Gal5:18But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law.

    so if homosexuality is a sin it comes against the holy spirit. but believing homosexual marriages are full of the fruit of the spirit, in the same way that of heterosexual believing marriages are.

    would you say the same of marriages given to the acts of the sin nature: fits of rage, drunkeness, and orgies etc. of course not!

    then how can you include homosexuality in galatians sexual immorality, purity, and debauchery? these are about the shame filled actions of 1cor and 1tim and romans1 that foster self hatred, and personnal defilement. homosexual marriage is about about self affirming acts of sexual intimacy that are expressions of faithfulness, devotion and affection to strengthen the bonds of a shared commited life together. the same as with any believing heterosexual marriage.

    to deny the spirit of these relationships for the sake of someone's supposed belief in a regulation is to deny the essence of the new covenant where paul in romans said that the sons of god would be led by the spirit of god.

    to believe in the leading of regulation is to continue to cling to the essence of the old covenant and the relationship espoused in deut. 28............................which concerning the covenant that paul stated in hebrews 8, that having been named "old" would become obsolete and soon pass away.


    what is sad is that there seems to be no concern about having any witness about the spirit in this issue, a witness that sought to test the truth, because of the love for a believing brother.

  • Mon Jan 12, 2009 11:42 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    Mike and feet,

    I want to thank both of you for this discussion, but I believe we have run its course and it's time to move on.

    You gave it a good try but are unable to cite scripture that specifically refutes the fact that homosexual behavior is one of the sexually immoral acts that God specifially describes a number of times in both the OT and NT. It's definitely a lifestyle of the flesh Vs the Spirit.

    You both handsomely proved Barna's survey that growing numbers of people now serve as their own theologian-in-residence [creating their own brand of religion.] One consequence is that Americans are embracing an unpredictable and contradictory body of beliefs. Americans and most of their churches have gone apostate following in the steps of Europe.

    God Bless and good night. Until we meet again on another article take care.

  • Mon Jan 12, 2009 2:43 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    hawk

    "Can you be specific and site any chapters and verses that refute marriage is exclusively between one man and one woman

    where is the word "only" or any word comparable to it, where talks about man and woman having a one flesh relationship and cleaving to each other."




    "One of the fruits of the true Spirit is faith. To believe and love Christ, to trust Him and obey everything He commanded. Living an unrepentant life of sexual immorality is not living a life of obeience and is a sign of being unfruitful. Satan is working overtime in America. '"

    AGAIN....................IT IS not because we OBEY THAT WE LOVE, ITS because we LOVE CHRIST THAT WE OBEY HIM, it s thru the love that we have for christ that we obey his commands.

    and how do we know we love christ, because we love our brother.

    1john4: 19We love because he first loved us. 20If anyone says, "I love God," yet hates his brother, he is a liar. For anyone who does not love his brother, whom he has seen, cannot love God, whom he has not seen. 21And he has given us this command: Whoever loves God must also love his brother.

    what is christ's command

    John 15:12
    My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you.

    John 15:17
    This is my command: Love each other.

    Revelation 3:10
    Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world to test those who live on the earth.

  • Mon Jan 12, 2009 2:43 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    hawk

    "Can you be specific and site any chapters and verses that refute marriage is exclusively between one man and one woman

    where is the word "only" or any word comparable to it, where talks about man and woman having a one flesh relationship and cleaving to each other."




    "One of the fruits of the true Spirit is faith. To believe and love Christ, to trust Him and obey everything He commanded. Living an unrepentant life of sexual immorality is not living a life of obeience and is a sign of being unfruitful. Satan is working overtime in America. '"

    AGAIN....................IT IS not because we OBEY THAT WE LOVE, ITS because we LOVE CHRIST THAT WE OBEY HIM, it s thru the love that we have for christ that we obey his commands.

    and how do we know we love christ, because we love our brother.

    1john4: 19We love because he first loved us. 20If anyone says, "I love God," yet hates his brother, he is a liar. For anyone who does not love his brother, whom he has seen, cannot love God, whom he has not seen. 21And he has given us this command: Whoever loves God must also love his brother.

    what is christ's command

    John 15:12
    My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you.

    John 15:17
    This is my command: Love each other.

    Revelation 3:10
    Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world to test those who live on the earth.

  • Mon Jan 12, 2009 1:31 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    I can't give verses to refute them, but I can give my personal interpretation of them. As far as Jesus saying one man and one woman, I think he was speaking to a very specific audience. Jesus chose only male apostles because he knew women apostles wouldn't have been taken seriously. Similarly, had Jesus spoken of gay married at the time, he wouldn't have been taken seriously.

    As far as sexual immorality, if you think critically, rape, adultery, random fornication, etc all end up hurting you or exposing you to hurt (i.e. chances of STDs, breaking the heart of the one you committed yourself to through a vow, taking away someone's dignity, etc.) Homosexuality does not innately hurt you. Certainly, you can choose to be promiscuous, but just because you're gay does not mean you're going to be.

    As for sex in marriage...gays aren't allowed to marry, but sex is a beautiful expression of love for a committed couple.

    (PS, its cite, not site, when you're talking about a form of documentation.)

  • Mon Jan 12, 2009 11:12 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    what is it that you do not get.........when i say gay couples in my church marry?

  • Mon Jan 12, 2009 11:10 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    feet;
    Can you be specific and site any chapters and verses that refute marriage is exclusively between one man and one woman and that any sexual activity outside of marriage is sexual immorality and therefore a spirit of the flesh Vs the Holy Spirit? Picking and choosing what you want to believe and discarding the truth of scripture is not the work of the Spirit and is in defiance of Christ's teachings.

    In fact, you have just validated Barna's new report:

    Asked to describe what the research means for American society today, researcher George Barna offered several insights.


    The Christian faith is less of a life perspective that challenges the supremacy of individualism as it is a faith being defined through individualism. Americans are increasingly comfortable picking and choosing what they deem to be helpful and accurate theological views and have become comfortable discarding the rest of the teachings in the Bible.

    Growing numbers of people now serve as their own theologian-in-residence. One consequence is that Americans are embracing an unpredictable and contradictory body of beliefs. Barna pointed out, as examples, that millions of people who consider themselves to be Christian now believe that the Bible is totally accurate in all of the lessons it teaches at the same time that they believe Jesus Christ sinned. Millions also contend that they will experience eternal salvation because they confessed their sins and accepted Christ as their savior, but also believe that a person can do enough good works to earn eternal salvation.

    The true Spirit is one of unity. As one lives in the flesh and is led by a different spirit not of God there will be much disharmony and individualism.

    One of the fruits of the true Spirit is faith. To believe and love Christ, to trust Him and obey everything He commanded. Living an unrepentant life of sexual immorality is not living a life of obeience and is a sign of being unfruitful. Satan is working overtime in America.

  • Mon Jan 12, 2009 11:09 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    why would you diss adoption. are we not ourselves adopted. do you characterize our heavenly relationship with the father as substandard.

    are saying that the surgate methods of producing children is of satan.

    AGAIN by there fruits you will know them, is there something about these children that god allows to be born, that makes them of satan?

  • Mon Jan 12, 2009 11:07 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Mike,
    I am focusing on Chrisitians living a Godly life Vs unbelievers and carnal Christians living an ungodly life. You keep bringing up comparisons between an ungodly life of homosexuality compared to an ungodly life of heterosexuality. I have addressed sexual immorality in all its forms; not exclusively focused on homosexuality. I don't disagree with you regarding the practices and results of other ungodly lifestyles. I hate the work of Satan in all he does.

    What you and feet keep bringing up point to all the more reason that seminaries do need to instruct their students on the total aspect of sexuality including what is of God's design and what God means by sexual immorality and living in the flesh.

    Perhaps you can answer this specific question regarding the post I addressed to feet yesterday at 9:03PM.

    Are there any specific chapters and verses you can put forward that refute the verses I sited qualifying marriage, sex confined within the bonds of marriage and sexual immorality?

  • Mon Jan 12, 2009 4:58 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    feetxxxl
    you have said....
    "that's what homosexual believers have in their marriages. yet you say the sex in these marriage is what defilies them.
    how is it that sex defiles homosexual marriages but is affirming and is an expression of that devotion and commitment in heterosexual ones and frequency and satisfaction of sexual intimacy is encouraged not only by counselors , but also scripture itself."

    Because, in essence, in a sexual relationship between a man and woman fruit is born to the honor and glory of God. In other words a soul is born.

    A sexual relationship between the same genders cannot do this. There is no fruit born to the Kingdom.

    God clearly marks the sexual relationship between the same genders as wrong.

  • Mon Jan 12, 2009 2:18 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    HAWK
    gal5:18But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law. ..................gal5:16So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature.

    homosexual believing marriages are of the fruit of the holy spirit in
    the same way as heterosexual believing marriages.

    the original translation 1cor and 1tim( kjv) is "defilersof themselves with mankind." homosexual believing marriages are about self affirmation and devotion and exude peace love etc the same as heterosexual believing marriages. there is no agreed understanding of what paul meant "malebed" to mean , and the translators left no written documentation for the reason for the transposition of "homosexuality." in other greek writings the term was used for anything other than homosexuality.


    paul said thatwe are no longer under and have died to the law with christ. having said this why would he then turn around and make new ones for us to be under. by your understanding of our relationship to the law we are still livingunder the dictates of deut28 which is the essence of the old covenant




    do you suppose, that any marriages gven over to the sin nature.... orgies, fits of rage,drunkeness of gal 5 would exude the same fruit as that of the holy spirit?

    For this reason a man will leave
    his father and mother
    and be joined to his wife,
    and the two will become one flesh?


    just because something is not mentioned in scripture does not mean it is against god.?why would scripture address the less than 3 % instead of the plus 97%?

    as i said before jesus gave us the test for that which is of the kingdom. " you will recognize them by their fruit."

  • Mon Jan 12, 2009 12:39 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    halver

    "Without the sex you have just a relationship. And the bible does not have a problem with this unless the two are unevenly yoked."

    that's amazing

    i assume that you look at marriage, because of its devotion, faithfulness, intimacy and cherishing as one of the greatest among human relationships.

    that's what homosexual believers have in their marriages. yet you say the sex in these marriage is what defilies them.
    how is it that sex defiles homosexual marriages but is affirming and is an expression of that devotion and commitment in heterosexual ones and frequency and satisfaction of sexual intimacy is encouraged not only by counselors , but also scripture itself.

    1cor7The husband should fulfill his marital duty to his wife, and likewise the wife to her husband. 4The wife's body does not belong to her alone but also to her husband. In the same way, the husband's body does not belong to him alone but also to his wife. 5Do not deprive each other except by mutual consent and for a time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer. Then come together again so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self-control. 6I say this as a concession, not as a command.


    if your comment is, paul is only .a addressing heterosexual marriages. of course he is. why would he be addressing the less than 3% of the population (assuming there existed anything resembling gay marriage) rather than the more than the 97% of the population.

    yet, jesus more than accountedfor gay marriage when he said that "we would recognize them by their fruit."

    since believing gay marriages have the same mutual ;love, devotion. affection etc as believing heterosexual marriages, they also are of god.


    to continue to claim that it is against some god-created regulation, seeks to ressurect the old covenant relationship to the law and deny the authority of christ and the holy spirit. this .denys all that paul says is our relation to the law in romans, and denys what hebrews 8 says about the old covenant. and tries to resurrect the old covenant relationship to the law as in deut 28.

  • Sun Jan 11, 2009 10:34 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Hawk, you're not talking about pedophilia if its teen boys. A pedophile goes after pre-pubescent children. There are some gay priests, and I'm sure some of them do cruise gay bars....and? There are plenty of straight child porn rings around this country, as well as child trafficking from around the world. I do not see why you are so focused on bringing up these statistics, yet ignoring ones that are aimed at the straight community. I can tell from the way you speak that your heart is not open. You hate the gay community and everything we stand for, so you focus only on the bad that some gays have done and block out anything else. It makes it easier for you to have faith that your Bible holds all the answers without having to ask a single question, doesn't it?

  • Sun Jan 11, 2009 9:24 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Mike;
    you said, "Hawk, he is connected with the church and the church pawns off what has happened on homosexuality..."

    This is an ad hominem attack. There is nothing you presented that refutes the claims in his book.

    This is one book that lives up to the jacket blurb "explosive." It documents attacks and rapes by seminary leaders, homosexual pornography and open "dating," intense pressure to approve homosexuality and priests who cruise gay bars.

    A year ago, it would have been too much to believe. But recent headlines nationwide are no less bizarre.

    In Miami, Fla., local priests have been accused of running a gay prostitution ring of altar boys.

    In Boston, Cardinal Bernard Law is being pressured to resign over sexual abuse by 70 priests. The media label it "pedophilia," but the victims are not little boys and girls - they're teen boys. Last March, a Boston Herald story, "Priest fears gays in ranks pose threat to church," quoted a Boston priest as saying: "The problem is there's a subculture of gay priests and everyone knows it. I went through seminary with a lot of them and got hit on. And when I reported it, I was harassed to the point where, emotionally, it was very difficult to be ordained."

  • Sun Jan 11, 2009 9:17 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Mike;
    My heart and mind are open to truth. My heart aches for those that are closed to the Word and God's saving Grace. My heart aches for those that are physically and emotionally wreaked due to sinful behaviors and guilt. My mind is open to the total truth from scripture and there is nothing in scripture that condones sexual immorality such as prostitution, intercourse outside of marriage, adultery, homosexuality, beastiality, incest, etc.
    Paul talks to celibacy for all singles and marriage for those whose desire burns or who are led to marriage.
    There are many on this site that pray for you as I do.
    God Bless

  • Sun Jan 11, 2009 9:15 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Hawk, he is connected with the church and the church pawns off what has happened on homosexuality. Again, it is not accurate from a psychological perspective. Again, research with an open heart.

  • Sun Jan 11, 2009 9:03 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    feet,
    It appears that what you are missing with your interpretation from Gal 5:22-25 is that if a person is in the flesh he can not have the Spirit and therefore will lack the benefits of the fruit of the Spirit.

    "I say then, walk by the Spirit and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh. 17 For the flesh desires what is against the Spirit, and the Spirit desires what is against the flesh; these are opposed to each other, so that you don't do what you want. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.
    19 Now the works of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, moral impurity, promiscuity, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatreds, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, selfish ambitions, dissensions, factions, 21 envy, drunkenness, carousing, and anything similar, about which I tell you in advance-as I told you before-that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
    Gal 5:16-21 (HCSB)
    Do you not know that the unjust will not inherit God's kingdom? Do not be deceived: no sexually immoral people, idolaters, adulterers, male prostitutes, homosexuals, 10 thieves, greedy people, drunkards, revilers, or swindlers will inherit God's kingdom.
    1 Cor 6:9-10 (HCSB)
    But because of sexual immorality, each man should have his own wife, and each woman should have her own husband. 3 A husband should fulfill his marital duty to his wife, and likewise a wife to her husband...otherwise, Satan may tempt you because of your lack of self-control.
    1 Cor 7:2-5 (HCSB)

    It is very obvious that sexual actitivity is to be enjoyed strictly within the bonds of marriage between one man and one woman. No other combination and no sexual behavior outside of marriage as this constitutes sexual immorality.
    By God's creation it is only one man and one woman:
    "Haven't you read," He replied, "that He who created them in the beginning made them male and female, 5 and He also said:

    For this reason a man will leave
    his father and mother
    and be joined to his wife,
    and the two will become one flesh?
    6 So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, man must not separate."
    Matt 19:4-6 (HCSB)

  • Sun Jan 11, 2009 9:00 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Mike;
    you only focused on NAMBLA. Read the rest of the article and the references. It is a form of homosexuality. Reference the predatory homosexual assaults in the Catholic Church as another example:
    The media won't touch it. The Catholic Church won't admit it. But thanks to Cincinnati author Michael S. Rose, dozens of priests and former seminary students are telling the truth about sexual abuse by priests.

    "It's somewhat dishonest now to define the problem as pedophilia," Mr. Rose said. "That's not what we're seeing in the priesthood. What we're seeing is predatory homosexuality, and that's an element of the gay subculture."

    Mr. Rose, 33, is the former editor of St. Catherine's Review. His book, Goodbye, Good Men, based on hundreds of interviews, argues that liberal theology has allowed a homosexual network to infiltrate and control the church, spreading what one priest called "a great moral evil."

  • Sun Jan 11, 2009 8:44 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Hawk, NAMBLA is a sickening organization made up of less than 1,000 members, so to quote them as if they speak for the gay community is wrong. Again, ask a licensed counselor and they will tell you your understanding of male-male molestation is wrong to think that means the adult man is gay. If you really cared enough to look into it with an open heart, you'd see that, but it might jade your beliefs.

  • Sun Jan 11, 2009 7:17 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Mike;
    homosexual groups don't agree with your take; their pedophilia is still homosexual behavior and tied tightly with the gay community.

    "....it remains condoned by many gay and lesbian leading North American activists who lobby for the lowering of the age of consent for sex.
    It is said to be healthy for the boys involved by the self-proclaimed homosexual association NAMBLA (North American Man Boy Love Association). Intergenerational sex (often used euphemism for pederasty) is an undeniable fixture of gay literature, gay films, gay travel and gay prostitution..."

  • Sun Jan 11, 2009 4:43 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Mike22685
    you have said...
    "..its at least what you believe God says"

    No twists or turns here Mike....this is what the Word of God says.

    And we're not even mentioning the sins of fornication and adultery which don't seem to be subject to the same interpretative problems. Yet they too are sexual sins.

  • Sun Jan 11, 2009 4:33 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    ..its at least what you believe God says.

  • Sun Jan 11, 2009 3:22 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    wr, excellent point and I having been trying to make that point all along, that the sin of homosexuality is the sexual act be it physical or mental. That's what God's Word condemns and calls sin.

  • Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:33 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    feetxxxl
    you have said...
    "you and others appear to be obsessed with the sex act".

    In regards to homosexuality, the sexual relationship between two of the same gender is the sin.

    There is no other definition for a homosexual relationship.

    Without the sex you have just a relationship. And the bible does not have a problem with this unless the two are unevenly yoked.

  • Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:10 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    "Again, blog after blog, you continue to defend the idea that the New Covenant favors the sexual sin of homosexuality."
    you and others appear to be obsessed with the sex act.

    the holy spirit does more than that, he sees it as a life and lifts them up, with praises, as part of god's diverse creation.

    i have explained my reasoning about every scripture that relates to this issue. when i ask you and others questions about these same scriptures you refuse offer any explanation.

  • Sun Jan 11, 2009 10:00 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    feetxxxl
    You have said...
    i find it interesting that not being able to condemn homosxuality a sin, thru the teachings of christ, you turn to a bias based judeo christian political organization for what you would sell as scientific facts.

    Again, blog after blog, you continue to defend the idea that the New Covenant favors the sexual sin of homosexuality.

    And when asked to explain scriptures which clearly state that homosexuality is a sin, you divert attention back to other arguements which only creates more confusion.

    The secular world believes in the defence of love your neighbor to justify homosexuality. But we are no longer of the secular world. We are of the Kingdom of God and all of its righteousness.

  • Sun Jan 11, 2009 9:25 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    hawk

    - 93% report anal sexual relations.
    - 92% report oral/anal sexual activity.
    - 17% report eating and/or rubbing
    themselves with the feces of their
    partners.
    - 29% report urinating on or in their
    partners.
    - 37% report sadomasochism.
    - 42% report "handballing" or "fisting"
    where the hand or arm is inserted into
    the rectum of their partner.
    - 32% report bondage.
    - 12% report giving or receiving of
    enemas for sexual pleasure.
    - 15% report sex with animals.
    Published by The Berean League, June,
    1991, 2875 Snelling Ave. N., St.
    Paul, MN 55113.

    BEREAN LEAGUE

    i find it interesting that not being able to condemn homosxuality a sin, thru the teachings of christ, you turn to a bias based judeo christian political organization for what you would sell as scientific facts.

    AGAIN I ASK ARE WE TO ASSUME THAT ALL THE NUMBERS THAT APPLY TO HOMOSEXUALS ALSO APPLY TO HETEROSEXUAL COUPLES WHO ALSO INDULGE IN ANAL SEX?

  • Sun Jan 11, 2009 3:56 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    hawk

    i know and love the book of galatian and have studied it many times . if you have something to say about galatians in regard to our discussion speak away.

    i value:

    Matthew 5:18
    I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

    because it says that each word is important, and not to be dismissed..........................for the sake of context.


    that being said, context is not to be dismissed, and also is important.

  • Sun Jan 11, 2009 3:56 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    hawk

    i know and love the book of galatian and have studied it many times . if you have something to say about galatians in regard to our discussion speak away.

    i value:

    Matthew 5:18
    I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

    because it says that each word is important, and not to be dismissed..........................for the sake of context.


    that being said, context is not to be dismissed, and also is important.

  • Sun Jan 11, 2009 3:28 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    HAWK

    a discussion requires answering the questions of the one you are having a discussion with, otherwise there is no discussion, just 2 people throwing words at each other.

    AGAIN................The diseases are all preventable by abstaining and living in God's will and are a result of sinful behavior.

    why is it you continually excude christ his authority and judgement when you conclude what is a of god. is it that you liken our relationship with god as that in deut 28?

    why do do dismiss christs words of "you will recognize them by their fruit"

    are you saying there are god's words that trump this?

    what are they?

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