Updated 04:40 pm.EST, Sat November 21, 2009

Church|Fri, Jan. 09 2009 05:30 PM EST

Episcopalians Demand $20M in Assets from Breakaway Group

By Lillian Kwon|Christian Post Reporter

A group of Episcopalians in Pittsburgh have demanded $20 million in assets from conservatives who left The Episcopal Church.

Some 21 parishes that voted against disaffiliation filed a court motion Thursday, saying the breakaway group has no legal rights to the assets since it severed ties with the denomination, as reported by The Associated Press.

The Diocese of Pittsburgh had voted overwhelmingly in October 2008 to split from The Episcopal Church – the U.S. arm of Anglicanism – and align with the more conservative Anglican Province of the Southern Cone in South America. It was the second diocese, or regional body, to secede from a denomination conservatives say has abandoned Christian orthodoxy and traditional Anglicanism.

While the diocese as a whole had voted to leave, approximately 21 parishes – which formed a new diocesan structure under the same name of Episcopal Diocese of Pittsburgh – decided to remain with the denomination and are now demanding all the assets that the conservatives left with.

They went to court this week after its requests for the assets, which include endowments and funds, were "ignored" by the breakaway group, spokesman Rich Creehan told AP.

The Rev. Peter Frank, spokesman for the conservative diocese, however, explained that the remaining parishes had sent the breakaway group 15 pages of demands in October "that essentially stated that even though they had lost the vote and represent a minority, they should have all of the assets immediately," he told The Christian Post.

"We told them 'no.' Our desire is for a fair, mediated division of property and assets that creates as little dislocation as possible for parishes on both sides of this division," Frank added.

He stressed that the conservative diocese would be "very pleased to enter serious discussions with the parishes that have left to rejoin The Episcopal Church."

The parishes that filed the court motion have centered their arguments on a 2005 court order that states that property and assets held by "Episcopal Diocese of Pittsburgh of the Episcopal Church of the United States of America ... shall continue to be so held ... regardless of whether some or even a majority of the parishes in the Diocese might decide not to remain in the Episcopal Church of the United States of America."

Both sides, however, call themselves the Episcopal Diocese of Pittsburgh. The breakaway group retained the name because they left as a whole diocese, not individual parishes, Frank explained.

"We are an incorporated, independent body in the State of Pennsylvania that followed its rules for changing its affiliation," he said. "Chang[ing] our name would have confused that by giving the incorrect sense that we had left the diocese."

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  • Fri Jan 16, 2009 11:40 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Forgivensinner, well Romans 13:1-2 was a favorite for Tories supporting the biblically-endorsed Divine Right of Kings opposed to so-called Patriots of America's Revolution. That's one.

  • Fri Jan 16, 2009 9:49 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Ahh, yes.

    There have been many misunderstandings over the centuries, but as I understand it was Christianity that aided in the abolishment of faulty thinking in regards to slavery.

    Also, women have had a rough road to their rightful place in minds and hearts. I am careful though, women have, by God's design, abilities men simply need and this is where we get ourselves into trouble. (And visa versa) IMHO.

    Opposition to democracy? Referring to anything in particular?

  • Fri Jan 16, 2009 8:36 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Forgivensinner, I agree with you that caring for one another is keeping Jesus' Word, but Paul's words have been used for other things, like the support of slavery, the subjugation of women, the opposition of democracy, or the oppression of homosexuality, in a way that is distinctive from Jesus' Way.

  • Thu Jan 15, 2009 7:00 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    SJ wrote: "So we are back to a discussion about whether Jesus is more concerned with our caring for one another or 'for keeping his Word,' which sounded then and now more like Paul to me than Jesus."

    I do not believe we are able care for one another without keeping His Word. If I am like Paul than I am like Paul who follows Jesus.

  • Thu Jan 15, 2009 5:21 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Forgivensinner, your earlier comment about St. Paul reflecting 'exactly' what God wanted him to do because of his baptism by the Holy Spirit seemed to contrast with your later acknowledgment that Paul, like us, also baptized by the Holy Spirit, are fallible human beings. Somehow it seemed to me that you were suggesting an infallibility for Paul that we don't share. So we are back to a discussion about whether Jesus is more concerned with our caring for one another or 'for keeping his Word,' which sounded then and now more like Paul to me than Jesus.

  • Thu Jan 15, 2009 9:47 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    SJ Wrote: "despite your wishes to the contrary"

    My wishes? What would they be?

  • Wed Jan 14, 2009 11:11 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Forgiven, I think it is both, for Paul and for us, despite your wishes to the contrary.

  • Wed Jan 14, 2009 6:32 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    SJ,
    Are you changing your stance? First you suggest Paul is fallible like we are then you decide we like Paul are given knowledge and power that reflects God ...by the Holy Spirit? Which is it?

  • Wed Jan 14, 2009 5:45 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Forgivensinner, are all of us who are baptized with the power of the Holy Spirit likewise given a knowledge and power that does indeed reflect God exactly as He wanted for the benefit of all His children then and now? That's certainly not be my experience. Has it been yours?

  • Wed Jan 14, 2009 10:29 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    SJ,
    I would have to respectfully disagree in that while human, yes, Paul by way of actual baptism of the Holy Spirit was given a knowledge and power that did indeed reflect God exactly as He wanted for the benefit of all His children then and now.

  • Wed Jan 14, 2009 9:12 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    forgivensinner, I suspect that Paul a fallen human being did not reflect exactly what God wanted him to, anymore than we do, that Paul was fallible, just as we are.

  • Tue Jan 13, 2009 10:02 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    SJ,
    Paul by inspiration of the Holy Spirit reflected exactly what God wanted Him to. IMHO.

  • Tue Jan 13, 2009 9:10 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Forgivensinner, I think Paul's writings reflect Paul, don't you?

  • Tue Jan 13, 2009 4:07 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    SJ wrote: "which sounds more like Paul to me. Jesus seemed far more interested in"

    Quick question, do you believe Paul's writings do not accurately reflect Jesus in every way?

  • Mon Jan 12, 2009 9:45 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    God’s people. And likewise the accursed are sent away to damnation, not because of anything they consciously did or did not do, and not because of any theologian doctrines or formulas they believed or didn’t believe. Thus ultimately, this Gospel is about what we are really doing with our lives --- that’s what matters, not what we think or believe or declare to be true!

  • Mon Jan 12, 2009 9:42 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Delightnthelord, we often act without thinking, without knowing what we are doing, cf. Matthew 25:31-46, those who are later blessed by our Father in Heaven apparently do the ministry of God without even knowing it! They inherit the kingdom of heaven long prepared for them from the foundation of the world, not because of anything they believed, or thought, or said, or even consciously did, but because they unknowingly cared for the Lord in caring for God’s people. And likewise the accursed are sent away to damnation, not because of anything they consciously did or did not do, and not because of any theologian doctrines or formulas they believed or didn’t believe. Thus ultimately, this Gospel is about what we are really doing with our lives --- that’s what matters, not what we think or believe or declare to be true!

  • Mon Jan 12, 2009 7:39 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    SJ wrote: "again I say that I think he and you are both quite wrong"

    How am I wrong? We either live according to Jesus or men?

  • Mon Jan 12, 2009 3:01 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    "Jesus seemed far more interested in how we lived our lives than what we thought"

    Our thoughts determine our actions so it would seem that Jesus is very interested in what our thoughts are. Our doctrine determines how we will act and live our lives. Without some sort of "orthodoxy" in our doctrine how will we know what is holy living and what is not?

  • Mon Jan 12, 2009 2:26 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Forgivensinner, I agree with you that FSNL was stating Jesus is pleased with those that do not compromise His Word, but again I say that I think he and you are both quite wrong in any such suggestion, which sounds more like Paul to me. Jesus seemed far more interested in how we lived our lives than what we thought, in holiness rather than orthodoxy (cf. Mt. 25:31-46).

  • Mon Jan 12, 2009 8:00 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Fsnl was stating Jesus is pleased with those that do not compromise His Word. Jesus, of course, is not pleased with any that split from His Truth and go according to doctrine of men.

  • Sun Jan 11, 2009 9:05 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    forsaltnlight
    "I think Jesus is quiet pleased with those who do not compromise His Word. There is many things more important than unity, Unity with HIM and HIS WORD is what is wants, unity outside of HIM is no unity at all, especially unity with the world."


    ****
    Christ founded one church. I think that by unifying, we follow His Word of staying in that ONE church.

    Also, if you think Christ is pleased that we split all the time, then I worry for you.

  • Sun Jan 11, 2009 8:15 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    forsaltnlight, I think you are quite wrong in your suggestion that Jesus would be pleased with those who do not compromise his Word, that sounds more like Paul. Jesus seemed far more interested in how we lived our lives than what we thought, in holiness rather than orthodoxy (cf. Mt. 25:31-46). I suggest you do the same!

  • Sun Jan 11, 2009 6:45 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    And the Province of the Southern Cone, though having congregations in five countries, has fewer churches than many Dioceses in the U.S. So one small group of dissidents join another small group of Anglican Churches that part of another continent. That's not progress, that's regress.

  • Sun Jan 11, 2009 11:01 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Twenty-one parishes constitute more than a "group." They constitute the Diocese of Pittsburgh of the Episcopal Church of the US. The other "group" led by Bishop Duncan is now a diocese of the Southern Cone. And Duncan undoubtedly hopes one day to be its leader.

  • Sat Jan 10, 2009 9:01 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    Why do Christians constantly dis-unify. I mean, really, does anyone here think Jesus is happy because we bicker? :-( Lord have mercy.

  • Sat Jan 10, 2009 10:53 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Jesus did not come to save a diocese or a denomination. He came to save people. Some of these Pittsburgh folks - liberal and conservative - have put their trust in the wrong hands: those of the property managers.

  • Fri Jan 09, 2009 8:48 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    After the last court decision in favor of local congregations owning and retaining the property, this suit will fail miserably.

  • Fri Jan 09, 2009 7:41 pm Agree: 12   Disagree: 4

    I think this 'group' has got it backwards. They are the ones who "broke away" when they decided to thumb their nose at the bible and accept sinners who refuse to repent, and flaunt their dirty lifestyle as something good. Of course they have the right to run any kind of "church" they want whether it be Christian as it used to be or what they have made it into now.

  • Fri Jan 09, 2009 6:07 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

    If any of you has a dispute with another, dare he take it before the ungodly for judgment instead of before the saints? Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if you are to judge the world, are you not competent to judge trivial cases? Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more the things of this life! Therefore, if you have disputes about such matters, appoint as judges even men of little account in the church! I say this to shame you. Is it possible that there is nobody among you wise enough to judge a dispute between believers? But instead, one brother goes to law against another -and this in front of unbelievers!

    The very fact that you have lawsuits among you means you have been completely defeated already. Why not rather be wronged? Why not rather be cheated? Instead, you yourselves cheat and do wrong, and you do this to your brothers

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