Saturday, November 07, 2009 Last Update:07:14 pm ET

Society|Fri, Jan. 09 2009 09:00 AM EST

Prop. 8 Supporters Want Donors Anonymous

By Steve Lawrence|Associated Press Writer

SACRAMENTO, Calif. – Supporters of the ballot measure that banned gay marriage in California have filed a lawsuit seeking to block their campaign finance records from public view, saying the reports have led to the harassment of donors.

"No one should have to worry about getting a death threat because of the way he or she votes," said James Bopp Jr., an attorney representing two groups that supported Proposition 8, Protect Marriage.com and the National Organization for Marriage California. "This lawsuit will protect the right of all people to help support causes they agree with, without having to worry about harassment or threats."

The lawsuit, filed Wednesday in federal court in Sacramento, asks the court to order the secretary of state's office to remove all donations for the proposition from its Web site.

It also asks the court to relieve the two groups and "all similarly situated persons" from having to meet the state's campaign disclosure requirements. That would include having to file a final report on Proposition 8 contributions at the end of January, as well as reports for any future campaigns the groups undertake.

Proposition 8, approved by 52.3 percent of California voters on Nov. 4, reversed a state Supreme Court decision allowing gay marriage. The measure's opponents have asked the Supreme Court to overturn it.

The lawsuit filed Wednesday cites a series of incidents in which those who gave money to support Proposition 8 received threatening phone calls, e-mails and postcards. One woman claims she was told: "If I had a gun, I would have gunned you down along with each and every other supporter."

Another donor reported a broken window, one said a flier calling him a bigot was distributed around his hometown and others received envelopes containing suspicious white power, according to the lawsuit.

Businesses employing people who contributed to the Proposition 8 campaign have been threatened with boycotts, the suit said.

Supporters of the gay marriage ban fear the donor backlash will hurt their efforts to raise money in the future, perhaps to fight an initiative seeking to overturn the ban.

"Several donors have indicated that they will not contribute to committee plaintiffs or similar organizations in the future because of the threats and harassment directed at them as a result of their contributions ... and the public disclosure of that fact," the lawsuit said.

The suit said courts have held that laws requiring disclosure of campaign contributions can be overturned or restricted if a group can make "an uncontroverted showing" that identifying its members can result in economic reprisals or threats of physical coercion.

California's Political Reform Act, which voters approved in 1974, established disclosure requirements for candidates and campaign committees.

The secretary of state's office and another defendant, the state's Fair Political Practices Commission, declined to comment Thursday on the lawsuit.

But Geoff Kors, executive director of Equality California, the gay rights group that led the campaign against Proposition 8, called it hypocritical for supporters of the measure to try to overturn voter-approved campaign finance laws.

He said Proposition 8 supporters used campaign finance records during the campaign to threaten gay rights supporters.

"They've used these records to attack corporations, to attack individuals," Kors said.

Peter Scheer, executive director of the First Amendment Coalition, which supports public access to government records and meetings, said the lawsuit is likely to be unsuccessful. But he also said the plaintiffs' arguments are not trivial.

"The problem with their argument, of course, is that campaign finance laws, both at the state and federal level, have been litigated endlessly now since Watergate and the argument has, in one form or another, been rejected," Scheer said.

He said courts have consistently failed to agree that contributors have a right to donate directly and anonymously to a candidate or campaign. He said some states have less restrictive reporting requirements, but they always include disclosure of donors.

Associated Press writer Juliet Williams contributed to this report.

Copyright 2008 Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed.
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  • Fri Jan 16, 2009 11:40 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    "baptism of the Holy Spirit "

    Now there's a loaded statement. It's also called it the second working of the Holy Spirit. Salvation is the first working. The second working is the empowerment to ministry.

  • Fri Jan 16, 2009 2:25 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 1

    This might be one area I differ with regards to the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, I have come to believe we are baptized in the Holy Spirit the moment we are saved and the Holy Spirit indwells each believer, I also believe we are immediately filled with the Holy Spirit as well, although that is not a one time event, but something we need to consistently experience if we are to be effectively used of God. I've also come to believe that the Gift of the Holy Spirit that each believer receives at the moment we are saved is the Holy Spirit and then God by the Holy Spirit equips us for whatever tasks He would have us join Him in doing, so our gifts may change as God calls us to join Him in various activities of service for Him. As far as the refining fire I see that as a part of both individual and corporate revival when God by His Holy Spirit refines us to more closely walk and serve Him, it could be burning away and ridding us of those things that are hindering our walk by removing those impurities and/or it could be to sharpen or enhance our godlike qualities for more effective service with and for God.

  • Fri Jan 16, 2009 1:45 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    "I have never heard of anyone preach on the baptism of fire (or refiner's fire, as I call it sometimes)."

    Prophet: Have you ever heard of the Plymouth Brethren movement, or John Nelson Darby, or Emmaus Bible College? A truly biblical teaching on the baptism of the Holy Spirit has been around for generations.

  • Tom »
    Thu Jan 15, 2009 9:19 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    amen prophet it is what I desire. It is why I seek His kingdom not mine, His righteousness not mine
    even if I do cross the line at times. Thanks again for the teaching. Gods Blessing In Christ Tom

  • Thu Jan 15, 2009 9:12 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Tom and Delight,

    I'm glad it helped. As I said, I wouldn't call it a doctrinal teaching, though it probably could be labeled as such because of all the scriptural support it has. But regardless, it is something I seek in my life. To be totally separated from my sinful desires and such. As beautiful and wonderful as that sounds, the road to that place is hard and scary.
    I pray you both find your way to a deeper and more glorious walk with Him. He is such a loving God. And if we are truly seeking Him, He will never let us fall, or let our trials be too much for us to handle.

  • Tom »
    Thu Jan 15, 2009 9:02 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    prophet and delight thank you for that dialog. I am an advocate for the baptism of the Holy Spirit as it does empowers one to ah a deeper and greater walk with God. I have often thought about the words John used in Matthew 3 towards the end of verse 11 "He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire". I had a hard time making the connection so you have given me food for thought and prayers thank you. Gods Blessing on the two of you. In Christ Tom

  • Thu Jan 15, 2009 7:32 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Thank you Prophet,

    This is definitely a more proactive walk, more than just dealing with the day-to-day sin but in laying it all on the altar. Being on this side of that, we may not know all of the things that are needing to be refined. I'd like to study it out and work out the Scripture you provided and get back with you.
    I think I've become satisfied with living the little sins...you know what I mean? I pray the Holy spirit will speak to my heart as I know that I can appropriate more of what God has for me in this life. I feel God is calling us to a pure walk as we are coming closer to His Return. thanks for sharing a bit of your teaching...I hope we can discuss this at a later time.
    I heard a teaching once that the refining process is firey and the result is for God to see His reflection in the gold.

  • Thu Jan 15, 2009 6:32 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    The baptism of fire is a life long process. It's not a one time event. It's a constant purging and destroying of our flesh. And it, as well as the teaching, are not for the baby, or carnal, Christian.

    "Though the road is long
    I will not fear
    Though the pain is strong
    I will not fear

    You, O Lord, are the keeper of my soul."

  • Thu Jan 15, 2009 6:29 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    To whom much is given, much is required. Many Christians give lip service by saying "Oh yeah! I'll give up everything! I'll offer up myself a living sacrifice and give God everything." But that's all it is...lip service. Their hearts are far from their words.

    But there are people who will embrace the fire and suffering that God will allow, so that they may attain the image of Christ, and allow His glory to be revealed in them.

  • Thu Jan 15, 2009 6:24 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Isaiah talks about who will dwell, or survive, through the fire that burns up the chaff and stubble (again, the unusable, worthless things). And I Peter again talks about us going through a fire, and why we do.

    The baptism of fire is not for everyone. And, like that baptism of the Holy Spirit, it will only happen to those that ask for it. It is for those who are truly, and whole-heartedly wanting to rid themselves of their own sin and sinful ways. Paul says to offer up ourselves a living sacrifice. How were sacrifices offered up? By fire, to consume and destroy. The problem with a living sacrifice is that it keeps trying to climb off the altar. LOL.
    But the BOF is a painful, arduous, and scary proposition, even for the most devout. It will bring trials and take you to the edge where you think you can't take anymore. That's why we need the Holy Spirit to give us the power to endure.
    But the cool thing is what I Peter says about the fire. That as we go through, more and more of our flesh is consumed, which allows more and more of God's glory to be revealed in us. But it's not easy. It's not fun. That's why not many go through it. Not many even want to venture into that.

  • Thu Jan 15, 2009 6:16 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    I have never heard of anyone preach on the baptism of fire (or refiner's fire, as I call it sometimes). And it appears that the teaching you've heard speaks of it as a fire that is ignited in your spirit that gives you a strong desire to study and learn from the Word; to draw closer to God.
    And I actually address that in my teaching, but I put that under the baptism of the Holy Ghost, as one of the numerous results of that particular baptism. I believe the baptism of fire goes one step further.
    My contextual scriptures are:

    Matthew 3:10-12
    Zechariah 13:7-9
    Isaiah 33:11-17
    I Peter 4:12-13

    With sub-topic scriptures Ephesians 5:25-27 and II Peter 3:11-14.

    Basically, the baptism of fire is a purging, or burning up, of our fleshly desires and worldly lusts. John the Baptist speaks of it prophetically in Matthew, right before Jesus arrives to be baptized. He talks about how He will purge his floor and burn up the chaff with "unquenchable fire". The chaff is th unusable, worthless part of the wheat.
    Zechariah speaks of a remnant that will come through the fire, and will be refined as silver and gold. If you are not familiar with the ancient art of refining, I can elaborate on that later. Needless to say, it's a very heated process.

  • Thu Jan 15, 2009 5:33 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Prophet,
    That could be...since we seem to be the only one's left on this thread and if you feel like it, would you mind sharing what you have learned and see if I can follow along?

  • Thu Jan 15, 2009 5:13 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    I see that my belief on the baptism of fire differs quite a bit from others.

  • Thu Jan 15, 2009 5:09 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Prophet,

    You know there has been a 'controversy' about the baptism of fire also referred to the 'second blessing'; in which the Holy Spirit comes in power and strength. I'm not dogmatic in ajudicating how God should work in the life of a believer but before I knew of any controversy a couple from my church (Assembly of God, at the time) offered to lay hands on me for the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

    From that experience, although I did not speak in tongues, I began to notice a big change in my walk with God. At the time I was a baby Christian and after the laying on of hands I had new fire to learn the scripyure, pray and witness. I was more steadfast, more sure of God and have had overwhelming peace since that moment. Now, all of this could be considered just subjective experience but anytime we want more of God I know he is ready to answer that prayer. it truly was a second blessing for me! I don't think it is something we CAN teach but something God will lead us to.

  • Thu Jan 15, 2009 4:21 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    I agree. I do the same thing. Like I've been studying out this baptism of fire mentioned in Matthew 3:10-12. Do you realize that John the Baptist was prophecying Jesus' post-earthly ministry in that scripture? As the outpouring of the Holy Spirit did not happen until after Jesus' ascension.
    And I believe that there is a "baptism of fire" as well. It is spoken of in that scripture, and supported by others. I just label it "baptism of fire" for simplicity sake. I don't teach it as a doctrine, though I know in essence it's true.

  • Thu Jan 15, 2009 2:39 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Prophet,

    In the case of teaching it is important to stick with the essential doctrines in Scripture but I am a curious person who always wants to ask, 'why did God do that'? Sometimes, I'll get a clearer understanding by searching out the Scriptures but there are many things we cannot know about the "why" questions this side of Heaven.

  • Thu Jan 15, 2009 1:58 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    I was hoping you wouldn't ask me that. LOL. Actually, I had no real definite thoughts about it. It's a good analogy, but not something I would teach as doctrine. And I'm sure you wouldn't either. That's up there with my belief of the baptism of fire.

  • Thu Jan 15, 2009 1:20 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Prophet,

    If only the first point, what are your thoughts on the tranfiguration as the second point?
    Are you able to add to my understanding?

  • Thu Jan 15, 2009 1:12 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    I agree with your first point.

  • Thu Jan 15, 2009 12:28 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Prophet,

    The 'He' in Dueteronomy 34:6 is capitalized in my NKJV as well, which leads me to believe that God buried Moses so that no one would know where his grave was. The notes below in my Nelson Study (which I understand are not inspired) state that God may have done this so no one would build a shrine on his grave and worship in an unworthy way. This seems to be a good explanation as we see men's proclivity toward idol worship.

    As far as the Transfiguration, I believe the appearance of Moses and Elijah is a picture that ties in the Old Testament, (the Law and the Prophets) to make the new covenant and the prophesies of Jesus Christ and His fulfillment of the Law in the New Testament one.

  • Thu Jan 15, 2009 12:06 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Delight,
    I would have to agree with your whole post. Enoch and Elijah never "died", so are they really considered "dead"? LOL.

    Kind of getting off the subject a tad, but just a curiosity question. I was looking into the life of Moses, to see if he really died (because he appeared at the Mount of Transfiguration with Elijah). He did, but I noticed something interesting and confusing.
    The Bible says that Moses went up on Mount Nebo so God could show him the promise land. It says in verses 5 and 6

    "So Moses the servant of the LORD died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the LORD.
    And he buried him in a valley in the land of Moab, over against Bethpeor: but no man knoweth of his sepulchre unto this day."

    Who is the "he" in verse 6 that buried him? Is it God? I know some translations capitalize the "H" in "he" to signify deity, but I was just wondering your take. I think it was God who buried him.

  • Thu Jan 15, 2009 11:05 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Phat,
    I believe the anonymonity of the donors is because they do not want to be targets of the roving, vandalizing and hateful gay activists. Can't blame them there, they are dealing with irrational people.

  • Thu Jan 15, 2009 11:01 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Prophet,

    From what I've studied I believe the two witnesses are Enoch, "And Enoch walked with God; and he was not, for God took him." Gen 5:24.

    And Elijah; "Then it happened, as they continued on and talked, that suddenly a chariot of fire appeared with horses of fire, and separated the two of them; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven." 2Kings 2:11

    Both of these instances, I believe, shows a picture of a physical rapture.

    PS these are the things I like to speak about with other Christians and not so much about the prevalent sin in the culture.

  • Thu Jan 15, 2009 8:46 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Quoting Andrew Sullivan: "If Prop 8 supporters truly feel that barring equality for gay couples is vital for saving civilization, shouldn't they be proud of their financial support? Why don't they actually have posters advertizing their support for discriminating against gay people - as a matter of pride?"

  • Wed Jan 14, 2009 11:06 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    The two witnesses. Do you believe they are two Old Testament patriarchs come back? Or two modern day prophets/witnesses?

  • Wed Jan 14, 2009 10:42 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Prophet...I just didn't want too many worms to escape...I understand what you are saying.

  • Wed Jan 14, 2009 10:38 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Prophet,

    I think we are coming to see that technological advancements have helped us to understand some of The book of Revelation; for example, when the whole world looks at the two witnesses who lie dead in the street for three days. Fifty years ago we may have taken this Scripture allegorically. Now with the advent of satellite, we can know understand that..literally...people of the world will actually see by satellite, beamed into their living rooms the fulfillment of this prophesy.

    "And their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
    Then those from the peoples, tribes, tongues, and nations will see their dead bodies three-and-a-half days, and not allow their dead bodies to be put into graves.
    Now after the three-and-a-half days the breath of life from God entered them, and they stood on their feet, and great fear fell on those who saw them." Revelation 11:8,9,11

  • Wed Jan 14, 2009 10:36 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    I know I probably opened an entirely new can of worms with those questions....but that's what I do best.

  • Wed Jan 14, 2009 10:20 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Delight,
    I understand your point, and agree. I was going kind of to the opposite pole as those who call me a "literalist" in that I take the whole Bible literally.
    Revelations is a good example. Is it literal? Figurative? Both? Is it talking of spiritual events or physical events or a combination?

    The Bible speaks of a "catching up of the saints" or "rapture", as it's been labeled. Is that a real, physical event? Or is it a spiritual event such as what John experienced on the island of Patmos?

    That is why we need the Holy Spirit to guide us through the daunting maze of literal/figurative, physical/spiritual events in the Bible.

  • Wed Jan 14, 2009 10:11 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Prophet,

    I understand what you are saying but you are only speaking of a small percentage of Scripture you do not read literally, right?

    Your statement about not taking Scripture literally sounds like a blanket declaration that you never or overall you do not read Scripture to make a literal sense.

    This could be misconstued by some here to mean that there is no literal sense to the Bible and say for instance, Romans 1 doesn't say what it literally means.
    I don't know if this was answered in your post back to me, would you mind expounding further? Thanks.

  • Wed Jan 14, 2009 9:37 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Phileo,

    So, we just have a different opinion about how involved we as Christians should be in the affairs of the world and culture. This is a non essential issue to be judging your brothers over, don't you think?

    I know this bothers you when we seek to be light and salt here by posting on CP; you've commented a few times over your disapproval of this nonessential to your own detriment and by that, show a lack of genuine love for your brother and cause a division of sorts.

    Wouldn't it be better to hold your tongue and consider that you may be wrong, we are here as the Church and by the Power of the Holy Spirit, we restrain sin.

    "For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way." 2 Thessalonians 2:7

    Just because Jesus didn't involve Himself in the political scene or culture at large, doesn't necessarily mean we are NOT to do so. He came for a certain mission that lasted only 3 years and was very specific in purpose. In fact I believe we MUST have a voice because we must be a witness to God here on earth. Remember, we serve a Big God Who can use whatever He wants to draw whoever He Wills and I believe speaking out by posting here to be a valid ministry when used under the Lordship of Christ and for His Glory.
    "Who are you to judge another's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. Indeed, he will be made to stand, for God is able to make him stand." Romans 14:4

    I hope we never have to have this conversation again.

  • Wed Jan 14, 2009 8:44 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

    DelightntheLord - Your comments sound more political than they do religious. I wonder why you don't spend the same energy on divorce? It's certainly flaunted in your face, its certainly seeks widespread appeal, I guess its just easier to pick on gay people.

  • Wed Jan 14, 2009 8:40 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    forgivensinner wrote: "Although, on this board some heated discussion do take place on the topic of homosexuality, I can assure you that the church does indeed deal with other topics in the confines of their churches."

    I've been to lots of churches and don't ever remember a sermon / homily on only homosexuality but it does seem to take a pretty big chunk of CP's bandwidth to handle the topic. My pastor has only mentioned homosexuality once or twice in the six years he's been at our church.

  • Wed Jan 14, 2009 8:36 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    believer: I am not even close to relapsing with the food thing (I have a hard time calling it an addiction because it wasn't physical, it was mental / emotional which is a componant of addiction and is a struggle but not an addiction - my wife and I have this conversation as she was an addiction counselor before becoming a stay at home mom). I run pretty consistantly and eat moderately and have a very good healthy relationship with food now.

  • Wed Jan 14, 2009 8:36 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    phileo, so then you stood by and said and did nothing about segregation laws and if you had lived in Germany during WWII you would have said nothing or done nothing about the Holocaust? And of course you would never say anything about the War in Iraq and if you're old enough the War in Vietnam? As a preacher once said a man who will stand for nothing will fall for anything!

  • Wed Jan 14, 2009 8:28 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    phileo, so what's your point?

  • Wed Jan 14, 2009 8:19 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    believer said - "phileo, tell that to the religious leaders who Christ chastised on several occasions, tell that to Peter when Christ severely rebuked him, and finally tell that to the money changers He ran out of the Temple area not once but twice."

    You are pointing to examples where Jesus chastised those of the faith and religious leaders. I was referring to political and government leaders. Again, point to the place in scripture where Jesus rebukes the Roman authorities or Kings of the region or publicly protests their rulings and laws? Good luck finding any, because that is not what he came to do.

  • Wed Jan 14, 2009 7:00 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    "I don't take ALL the Bible literally."

    Jesus spoke in parables. A parable is "A simple story illustrating a moral or religious lesson." It can be fiction or non-fiction. Therefore, it is the point Jesus was trying to get across which was important. Would Jesus give a story of fiction to prove a point and then expect us to take it literally? God created each of us with a degree of common sense which He will hold each of us accountable for how we used it! That should scare everyone....

  • Wed Jan 14, 2009 6:33 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    Delight,
    You asked "Really? Then how do you "take" it?"

    Well, I should expound. I don't take ALL the Bible literally. If that were the case I'd be dead. Paul says to offer up ourselves a living sacrifice. I don't know anyone in their right mind that would take that literal. Or putting on the whole armor of God. I can see literalists making themselves armor with all the names on it, and putting it on. Then trying to take Satan on.
    It takes a spiritula mind to understand what the Bible is talking about. Unfortunately, too many people try to understand it with their carnal mind. Then they begin to follow false doctrines, or even start their own. They become confused, claim the Bible contradicts itself, etc, etc. That's why Jesus said that the Holy Spirit would lead us into all truths. Because we need the Spirit to guide us.

  • Wed Jan 14, 2009 6:02 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    "1. Since we are so opposed to homosexuality, why don't we talk about the rampant sin of gluttony so obvious to everyone but yet never discussed in any church body?

    2. While we are quick to attack the homosexual for their sin, why do we continually overlook the divorces and the rampant adultery amongst heterosexuals leading the church?"

    Simple...no one here is trying to say any of those things is OK. No one on this site is posting "it's OK for me to have a woman on the side". We discuss what subjects are brought up.

  • Wed Jan 14, 2009 5:53 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    mike22685, which is the reason most of the posts deal with the issue of homosexuality, if there were other issues addressed then the posts would speak to those as well. And it is people on both sides of the issue who determine the direction and specifics that the posts will address.

  • Wed Jan 14, 2009 5:51 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    DP, and in fact when the Scriptures give the guidelines for what a slave needs to do to become a permanent slave to his owner it to mentions his family as part of the process, so apparently slaves were allowed to marry and have families in biblical days.

  • Wed Jan 14, 2009 5:48 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    phileo, tell that to the religious leaders who Christ chastised on several occasions, tell that to Peter when Christ severely rebuked him, and finally tell that to the money changers He ran out of the Temple area not once but twice.

  • Wed Jan 14, 2009 5:33 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    DITL - point to the scripture where Jesus attacks the political leaders of his time? Point to me where he fought the laws and those that enforced the law?

    I'll save you the time, you won't find it.

    The Christian message is one of love and compassion, and should not be concerned with government and laws. Our goal should be to reach the hearts and minds of individuals on a personal level, face to face. We show them the love of Christ, open their eyes to the truth of God's word, and allow the Holy Spirit to convict them of their sin, repent and turn and follow Christ.

    We will never win souls to Christ by fighting the laws, as evidenced by the tremendous backlash as a result of Prop 8.

    Do I agree or support the militant homosexual agenda that chooses to rewrite the laws and force their views down my throat? No, absolutely not. But scripture shows me that to fight them is not what we should spend our time doing. I time should be invested in showing the love of Christ to those that are in our direct sphere of influence locally. I've got lots of work to do with local folks to be so consumed with a national battle that I really don't have a direct affect on.

    I just see too much negative in fighting a public battle against homosexuality through the national media, who lives for Christians that say or do things that are not representative of a positive Christian witness.

    Again, just my two worthless cents. Take it for what you paid for it.

  • Wed Jan 14, 2009 4:19 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    The reason you see this interest in homosexual issues from the Church is because homosexuals wish not to be discreet with their sex lives and wish to flaunt their sin in the face of society to win approval. They are seeking to breakdown the bastions of what our society has always been based; the sanctity of marriage and family as the foundation of a moral society. The agenda that is being forced on us is ungodly and if it prevails, will work against the rights of the majority to quiet the minority. Good christians will stand against the agenda and the moral plunge this society will take once this society embraces homosexuality.

    No doubt, some would like this not to come to light, but the controversy is being spurred by the radical homosexual activists with a strong desire to undermine the Judeo/Christian ethic that made this country great. We will stand and fight against it. Don't want the controversy? Quit pushing the agenda to redefine not only marriage but God and His Word.

  • Wed Jan 14, 2009 4:07 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    The Bible does not address "slave marriage" because it is a Biblical non-issue. Many slave owners allowed their slaves to marry and have children. The Bible does NOT speak against slave marriage as it DOES speak against homosexuality. Therefore, homosexuality is wrong and "slave marriage" is not an issue. It is you who is making stuff up.

  • Wed Jan 14, 2009 3:58 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Why is everyone attacking Phileo? I thought (he/she?) made some excellent points. If you look at this website, the most tabs are dedicated to gay issues (under society, under churches<homosexuality, then there are the random issues related to gay rights under politics and whatnot. This website devotes an absurd amount of time and space going after gays rather than much bigger issues, and its because these articles get the most debate.

  • Wed Jan 14, 2009 2:56 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    "Can I just say, I love your compassion!"

    Compassion for who, Forgiven? I must be less of a positive thinker than you...if there is any compassion shown, it is not for the brothers on this post as the name 'phileo' would indicate.

    Perhaps, brother Phileo would better serve the kingdom of God by speaking up for God and not spend so much time putting down Christians as that causes "bickering" between brothers.
    I don't believe we should be bickering here, and I will not engage in what I consider bickering but to stifle one's right to speak out against the prevailing culture is just useless and we will not hold back the darkness by staying mute. As the culture gets worse, the church goes underground and no longer is relevent to the world.

    The silence from the Chuch on social issue has in the past been complicit in the culture mores having prominence in the world today and the church remaining silent and ceasing to be salt and light. Isn't it bad enough the culture thinks we have no say, do we also need the same message sent by someone within the church?

    "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmond Burke.

  • Wed Jan 14, 2009 2:54 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Phileo wrote: "Perhaps I'm self-convicted of this myself, as I spend way too much time on the internet, wasting my time dealing with garbage like this that serves no fruitful purpose for God's Kingdom."

    I hear what you're saying. For me, though, I desire to dwell in His Word. I desire to deepen my understanding and increase my faith. I know that may seem strange being the conversations that go on, but it does.

  • Wed Jan 14, 2009 2:38 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    iff wrote: "it may be easier to pick on the gays but there are actually bigger (literally and metaphorically) problems than homosexuality that the church needs to deal with."

    Although, on this board some heated discussion do take place on the topic of homosexuality, I can assure you that the church does indeed deal with other topics in the confines of their churches.

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