SACRAMENTO, Calif. – Supporters of the ballot measure that banned gay marriage in California have filed a lawsuit seeking to block their campaign finance records from public view, saying the reports have led to the harassment of donors.
"No one should have to worry about getting a death threat because of the way he or she votes," said James Bopp Jr., an attorney representing two groups that supported Proposition 8, Protect Marriage.com and the National Organization for Marriage California. "This lawsuit will protect the right of all people to help support causes they agree with, without having to worry about harassment or threats."
The lawsuit, filed Wednesday in federal court in Sacramento, asks the court to order the secretary of state's office to remove all donations for the proposition from its Web site.
It also asks the court to relieve the two groups and "all similarly situated persons" from having to meet the state's campaign disclosure requirements. That would include having to file a final report on Proposition 8 contributions at the end of January, as well as reports for any future campaigns the groups undertake.
Proposition 8, approved by 52.3 percent of California voters on Nov. 4, reversed a state Supreme Court decision allowing gay marriage. The measure's opponents have asked the Supreme Court to overturn it.
The lawsuit filed Wednesday cites a series of incidents in which those who gave money to support Proposition 8 received threatening phone calls, e-mails and postcards. One woman claims she was told: "If I had a gun, I would have gunned you down along with each and every other supporter."
Another donor reported a broken window, one said a flier calling him a bigot was distributed around his hometown and others received envelopes containing suspicious white power, according to the lawsuit.
Businesses employing people who contributed to the Proposition 8 campaign have been threatened with boycotts, the suit said.
Supporters of the gay marriage ban fear the donor backlash will hurt their efforts to raise money in the future, perhaps to fight an initiative seeking to overturn the ban.
"Several donors have indicated that they will not contribute to committee plaintiffs or similar organizations in the future because of the threats and harassment directed at them as a result of their contributions ... and the public disclosure of that fact," the lawsuit said.
The suit said courts have held that laws requiring disclosure of campaign contributions can be overturned or restricted if a group can make "an uncontroverted showing" that identifying its members can result in economic reprisals or threats of physical coercion.
California's Political Reform Act, which voters approved in 1974, established disclosure requirements for candidates and campaign committees.
The secretary of state's office and another defendant, the state's Fair Political Practices Commission, declined to comment Thursday on the lawsuit.
But Geoff Kors, executive director of Equality California, the gay rights group that led the campaign against Proposition 8, called it hypocritical for supporters of the measure to try to overturn voter-approved campaign finance laws.
He said Proposition 8 supporters used campaign finance records during the campaign to threaten gay rights supporters.
"They've used these records to attack corporations, to attack individuals," Kors said.
Peter Scheer, executive director of the First Amendment Coalition, which supports public access to government records and meetings, said the lawsuit is likely to be unsuccessful. But he also said the plaintiffs' arguments are not trivial.
"The problem with their argument, of course, is that campaign finance laws, both at the state and federal level, have been litigated endlessly now since Watergate and the argument has, in one form or another, been rejected," Scheer said.
He said courts have consistently failed to agree that contributors have a right to donate directly and anonymously to a candidate or campaign. He said some states have less restrictive reporting requirements, but they always include disclosure of donors.
Associated Press writer Juliet Williams contributed to this report.
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"baptism of the Holy Spirit "
Now there's a loaded statement. It's also called it the second working of the Holy Spirit. Salvation is the first working. The second working is the empowerment to ministry.
This might be one area I differ with regards to the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, I have come to believe we are baptized in the Holy Spirit the moment we are saved and the Holy Spirit indwells each believer, I also believe we are immediately filled with the Holy Spirit as well, although that is not a one time event, but something we need to consistently experience if we are to be effectively used of God. I've also come to believe that the Gift of the Holy Spirit that each believer receives at the moment we are saved is the Holy Spirit and then God by the Holy Spirit equips us for whatever tasks He would have us join Him in doing, so our gifts may change as God calls us to join Him in various activities of service for Him. As far as the refining fire I see that as a part of both individual and corporate revival when God by His Holy Spirit refines us to more closely walk and serve Him, it could be burning away and ridding us of those things that are hindering our walk by removing those impurities and/or it could be to sharpen or enhance our godlike qualities for more effective service with and for God.
"I have never heard of anyone preach on the baptism of fire (or refiner's fire, as I call it sometimes)."
Prophet: Have you ever heard of the Plymouth Brethren movement, or John Nelson Darby, or Emmaus Bible College? A truly biblical teaching on the baptism of the Holy Spirit has been around for generations.
amen prophet it is what I desire. It is why I seek His kingdom not mine, His righteousness not mine
even if I do cross the line at times. Thanks again for the teaching. Gods Blessing In Christ Tom
Tom and Delight,
I'm glad it helped. As I said, I wouldn't call it a doctrinal teaching, though it probably could be labeled as such because of all the scriptural support it has. But regardless, it is something I seek in my life. To be totally separated from my sinful desires and such. As beautiful and wonderful as that sounds, the road to that place is hard and scary.
I pray you both find your way to a deeper and more glorious walk with Him. He is such a loving God. And if we are truly seeking Him, He will never let us fall, or let our trials be too much for us to handle.
prophet and delight thank you for that dialog. I am an advocate for the baptism of the Holy Spirit as it does empowers one to ah a deeper and greater walk with God. I have often thought about the words John used in Matthew 3 towards the end of verse 11 "He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire". I had a hard time making the connection so you have given me food for thought and prayers thank you. Gods Blessing on the two of you. In Christ Tom
Thank you Prophet,
This is definitely a more proactive walk, more than just dealing with the day-to-day sin but in laying it all on the altar. Being on this side of that, we may not know all of the things that are needing to be refined. I'd like to study it out and work out the Scripture you provided and get back with you.
I think I've become satisfied with living the little sins...you know what I mean? I pray the Holy spirit will speak to my heart as I know that I can appropriate more of what God has for me in this life. I feel God is calling us to a pure walk as we are coming closer to His Return. thanks for sharing a bit of your teaching...I hope we can discuss this at a later time.
I heard a teaching once that the refining process is firey and the result is for God to see His reflection in the gold.
The baptism of fire is a life long process. It's not a one time event. It's a constant purging and destroying of our flesh. And it, as well as the teaching, are not for the baby, or carnal, Christian.
"Though the road is long
I will not fear
Though the pain is strong
I will not fear
You, O Lord, are the keeper of my soul."
To whom much is given, much is required. Many Christians give lip service by saying "Oh yeah! I'll give up everything! I'll offer up myself a living sacrifice and give God everything." But that's all it is...lip service. Their hearts are far from their words.
But there are people who will embrace the fire and suffering that God will allow, so that they may attain the image of Christ, and allow His glory to be revealed in them.
Isaiah talks about who will dwell, or survive, through the fire that burns up the chaff and stubble (again, the unusable, worthless things). And I Peter again talks about us going through a fire, and why we do.
The baptism of fire is not for everyone. And, like that baptism of the Holy Spirit, it will only happen to those that ask for it. It is for those who are truly, and whole-heartedly wanting to rid themselves of their own sin and sinful ways. Paul says to offer up ourselves a living sacrifice. How were sacrifices offered up? By fire, to consume and destroy. The problem with a living sacrifice is that it keeps trying to climb off the altar. LOL.
But the BOF is a painful, arduous, and scary proposition, even for the most devout. It will bring trials and take you to the edge where you think you can't take anymore. That's why we need the Holy Spirit to give us the power to endure.
But the cool thing is what I Peter says about the fire. That as we go through, more and more of our flesh is consumed, which allows more and more of God's glory to be revealed in us. But it's not easy. It's not fun. That's why not many go through it. Not many even want to venture into that.
I have never heard of anyone preach on the baptism of fire (or refiner's fire, as I call it sometimes). And it appears that the teaching you've heard speaks of it as a fire that is ignited in your spirit that gives you a strong desire to study and learn from the Word; to draw closer to God.
And I actually address that in my teaching, but I put that under the baptism of the Holy Ghost, as one of the numerous results of that particular baptism. I believe the baptism of fire goes one step further.
My contextual scriptures are:
Matthew 3:10-12
Zechariah 13:7-9
Isaiah 33:11-17
I Peter 4:12-13
With sub-topic scriptures Ephesians 5:25-27 and II Peter 3:11-14.
Basically, the baptism of fire is a purging, or burning up, of our fleshly desires and worldly lusts. John the Baptist speaks of it prophetically in Matthew, right before Jesus arrives to be baptized. He talks about how He will purge his floor and burn up the chaff with "unquenchable fire". The chaff is th unusable, worthless part of the wheat.
Zechariah speaks of a remnant that will come through the fire, and will be refined as silver and gold. If you are not familiar with the ancient art of refining, I can elaborate on that later. Needless to say, it's a very heated process.
Prophet,
That could be...since we seem to be the only one's left on this thread and if you feel like it, would you mind sharing what you have learned and see if I can follow along?
I see that my belief on the baptism of fire differs quite a bit from others.
Prophet,
You know there has been a 'controversy' about the baptism of fire also referred to the 'second blessing'; in which the Holy Spirit comes in power and strength. I'm not dogmatic in ajudicating how God should work in the life of a believer but before I knew of any controversy a couple from my church (Assembly of God, at the time) offered to lay hands on me for the baptism of the Holy Spirit.
From that experience, although I did not speak in tongues, I began to notice a big change in my walk with God. At the time I was a baby Christian and after the laying on of hands I had new fire to learn the scripyure, pray and witness. I was more steadfast, more sure of God and have had overwhelming peace since that moment. Now, all of this could be considered just subjective experience but anytime we want more of God I know he is ready to answer that prayer. it truly was a second blessing for me! I don't think it is something we CAN teach but something God will lead us to.
I agree. I do the same thing. Like I've been studying out this baptism of fire mentioned in Matthew 3:10-12. Do you realize that John the Baptist was prophecying Jesus' post-earthly ministry in that scripture? As the outpouring of the Holy Spirit did not happen until after Jesus' ascension.
And I believe that there is a "baptism of fire" as well. It is spoken of in that scripture, and supported by others. I just label it "baptism of fire" for simplicity sake. I don't teach it as a doctrine, though I know in essence it's true.
Prophet,
In the case of teaching it is important to stick with the essential doctrines in Scripture but I am a curious person who always wants to ask, 'why did God do that'? Sometimes, I'll get a clearer understanding by searching out the Scriptures but there are many things we cannot know about the "why" questions this side of Heaven.
I was hoping you wouldn't ask me that. LOL. Actually, I had no real definite thoughts about it. It's a good analogy, but not something I would teach as doctrine. And I'm sure you wouldn't either. That's up there with my belief of the baptism of fire.
Prophet,
If only the first point, what are your thoughts on the tranfiguration as the second point?
Are you able to add to my understanding?
I agree with your first point.
Prophet,
The 'He' in Dueteronomy 34:6 is capitalized in my NKJV as well, which leads me to believe that God buried Moses so that no one would know where his grave was. The notes below in my Nelson Study (which I understand are not inspired) state that God may have done this so no one would build a shrine on his grave and worship in an unworthy way. This seems to be a good explanation as we see men's proclivity toward idol worship.
As far as the Transfiguration, I believe the appearance of Moses and Elijah is a picture that ties in the Old Testament, (the Law and the Prophets) to make the new covenant and the prophesies of Jesus Christ and His fulfillment of the Law in the New Testament one.
Delight,
I would have to agree with your whole post. Enoch and Elijah never "died", so are they really considered "dead"? LOL.
Kind of getting off the subject a tad, but just a curiosity question. I was looking into the life of Moses, to see if he really died (because he appeared at the Mount of Transfiguration with Elijah). He did, but I noticed something interesting and confusing.
The Bible says that Moses went up on Mount Nebo so God could show him the promise land. It says in verses 5 and 6
"So Moses the servant of the LORD died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the LORD.
And he buried him in a valley in the land of Moab, over against Bethpeor: but no man knoweth of his sepulchre unto this day."
Who is the "he" in verse 6 that buried him? Is it God? I know some translations capitalize the "H" in "he" to signify deity, but I was just wondering your take. I think it was God who buried him.
Phat,
I believe the anonymonity of the donors is because they do not want to be targets of the roving, vandalizing and hateful gay activists. Can't blame them there, they are dealing with irrational people.
Prophet,
From what I've studied I believe the two witnesses are Enoch, "And Enoch walked with God; and he was not, for God took him." Gen 5:24.
And Elijah; "Then it happened, as they continued on and talked, that suddenly a chariot of fire appeared with horses of fire, and separated the two of them; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven." 2Kings 2:11
Both of these instances, I believe, shows a picture of a physical rapture.
PS these are the things I like to speak about with other Christians and not so much about the prevalent sin in the culture.
Quoting Andrew Sullivan: "If Prop 8 supporters truly feel that barring equality for gay couples is vital for saving civilization, shouldn't they be proud of their financial support? Why don't they actually have posters advertizing their support for discriminating against gay people - as a matter of pride?"
The two witnesses. Do you believe they are two Old Testament patriarchs come back? Or two modern day prophets/witnesses?
Prophet...I just didn't want too many worms to escape...I understand what you are saying.
Prophet,
I think we are coming to see that technological advancements have helped us to understand some of The book of Revelation; for example, when the whole world looks at the two witnesses who lie dead in the street for three days. Fifty years ago we may have taken this Scripture allegorically. Now with the advent of satellite, we can know understand that..literally...people of the world will actually see by satellite, beamed into their living rooms the fulfillment of this prophesy.
"And their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
Then those from the peoples, tribes, tongues, and nations will see their dead bodies three-and-a-half days, and not allow their dead bodies to be put into graves.
Now after the three-and-a-half days the breath of life from God entered them, and they stood on their feet, and great fear fell on those who saw them." Revelation 11:8,9,11
I know I probably opened an entirely new can of worms with those questions....but that's what I do best.
Delight,
I understand your point, and agree. I was going kind of to the opposite pole as those who call me a "literalist" in that I take the whole Bible literally.
Revelations is a good example. Is it literal? Figurative? Both? Is it talking of spiritual events or physical events or a combination?
The Bible speaks of a "catching up of the saints" or "rapture", as it's been labeled. Is that a real, physical event? Or is it a spiritual event such as what John experienced on the island of Patmos?
That is why we need the Holy Spirit to guide us through the daunting maze of literal/figurative, physical/spiritual events in the Bible.
Prophet,
I understand what you are saying but you are only speaking of a small percentage of Scripture you do not read literally, right?
Your statement about not taking Scripture literally sounds like a blanket declaration that you never or overall you do not read Scripture to make a literal sense.
This could be misconstued by some here to mean that there is no literal sense to the Bible and say for instance, Romans 1 doesn't say what it literally means.
I don't know if this was answered in your post back to me, would you mind expounding further? Thanks.
Phileo,
So, we just have a different opinion about how involved we as Christians should be in the affairs of the world and culture. This is a non essential issue to be judging your brothers over, don't you think?
I know this bothers you when we seek to be light and salt here by posting on CP; you've commented a few times over your disapproval of this nonessential to your own detriment and by that, show a lack of genuine love for your brother and cause a division of sorts.
Wouldn't it be better to hold your tongue and consider that you may be wrong, we are here as the Church and by the Power of the Holy Spirit, we restrain sin.
"For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way." 2 Thessalonians 2:7
Just because Jesus didn't involve Himself in the political scene or culture at large, doesn't necessarily mean we are NOT to do so. He came for a certain mission that lasted only 3 years and was very specific in purpose. In fact I believe we MUST have a voice because we must be a witness to God here on earth. Remember, we serve a Big God Who can use whatever He wants to draw whoever He Wills and I believe speaking out by posting here to be a valid ministry when used under the Lordship of Christ and for His Glory.
"Who are you to judge another's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. Indeed, he will be made to stand, for God is able to make him stand." Romans 14:4
I hope we never have to have this conversation again.
DelightntheLord - Your comments sound more political than they do religious. I wonder why you don't spend the same energy on divorce? It's certainly flaunted in your face, its certainly seeks widespread appeal, I guess its just easier to pick on gay people.
forgivensinner wrote: "Although, on this board some heated discussion do take place on the topic of homosexuality, I can assure you that the church does indeed deal with other topics in the confines of their churches."
I've been to lots of churches and don't ever remember a sermon / homily on only homosexuality but it does seem to take a pretty big chunk of CP's bandwidth to handle the topic. My pastor has only mentioned homosexuality once or twice in the six years he's been at our church.
believer: I am not even close to relapsing with the food thing (I have a hard time calling it an addiction because it wasn't physical, it was mental / emotional which is a componant of addiction and is a struggle but not an addiction - my wife and I have this conversation as she was an addiction counselor before becoming a stay at home mom). I run pretty consistantly and eat moderately and have a very good healthy relationship with food now.
phileo, so then you stood by and said and did nothing about segregation laws and if you had lived in Germany during WWII you would have said nothing or done nothing about the Holocaust? And of course you would never say anything about the War in Iraq and if you're old enough the War in Vietnam? As a preacher once said a man who will stand for nothing will fall for anything!
phileo, so what's your point?
believer said - "phileo, tell that to the religious leaders who Christ chastised on several occasions, tell that to Peter when Christ severely rebuked him, and finally tell that to the money changers He ran out of the Temple area not once but twice."
You are pointing to examples where Jesus chastised those of the faith and religious leaders. I was referring to political and government leaders. Again, point to the place in scripture where Jesus rebukes the Roman authorities or Kings of the region or publicly protests their rulings and laws? Good luck finding any, because that is not what he came to do.
"I don't take ALL the Bible literally."
Jesus spoke in parables. A parable is "A simple story illustrating a moral or religious lesson." It can be fiction or non-fiction. Therefore, it is the point Jesus was trying to get across which was important. Would Jesus give a story of fiction to prove a point and then expect us to take it literally? God created each of us with a degree of common sense which He will hold each of us accountable for how we used it! That should scare everyone....
Delight,
You asked "Really? Then how do you "take" it?"
Well, I should expound. I don't take ALL the Bible literally. If that were the case I'd be dead. Paul says to offer up ourselves a living sacrifice. I don't know anyone in their right mind that would take that literal. Or putting on the whole armor of God. I can see literalists making themselves armor with all the names on it, and putting it on. Then trying to take Satan on.
It takes a spiritula mind to understand what the Bible is talking about. Unfortunately, too many people try to understand it with their carnal mind. Then they begin to follow false doctrines, or even start their own. They become confused, claim the Bible contradicts itself, etc, etc. That's why Jesus said that the Holy Spirit would lead us into all truths. Because we need the Spirit to guide us.
"1. Since we are so opposed to homosexuality, why don't we talk about the rampant sin of gluttony so obvious to everyone but yet never discussed in any church body?
2. While we are quick to attack the homosexual for their sin, why do we continually overlook the divorces and the rampant adultery amongst heterosexuals leading the church?"
Simple...no one here is trying to say any of those things is OK. No one on this site is posting "it's OK for me to have a woman on the side". We discuss what subjects are brought up.
mike22685, which is the reason most of the posts deal with the issue of homosexuality, if there were other issues addressed then the posts would speak to those as well. And it is people on both sides of the issue who determine the direction and specifics that the posts will address.
DP, and in fact when the Scriptures give the guidelines for what a slave needs to do to become a permanent slave to his owner it to mentions his family as part of the process, so apparently slaves were allowed to marry and have families in biblical days.
phileo, tell that to the religious leaders who Christ chastised on several occasions, tell that to Peter when Christ severely rebuked him, and finally tell that to the money changers He ran out of the Temple area not once but twice.
DITL - point to the scripture where Jesus attacks the political leaders of his time? Point to me where he fought the laws and those that enforced the law?
I'll save you the time, you won't find it.
The Christian message is one of love and compassion, and should not be concerned with government and laws. Our goal should be to reach the hearts and minds of individuals on a personal level, face to face. We show them the love of Christ, open their eyes to the truth of God's word, and allow the Holy Spirit to convict them of their sin, repent and turn and follow Christ.
We will never win souls to Christ by fighting the laws, as evidenced by the tremendous backlash as a result of Prop 8.
Do I agree or support the militant homosexual agenda that chooses to rewrite the laws and force their views down my throat? No, absolutely not. But scripture shows me that to fight them is not what we should spend our time doing. I time should be invested in showing the love of Christ to those that are in our direct sphere of influence locally. I've got lots of work to do with local folks to be so consumed with a national battle that I really don't have a direct affect on.
I just see too much negative in fighting a public battle against homosexuality through the national media, who lives for Christians that say or do things that are not representative of a positive Christian witness.
Again, just my two worthless cents. Take it for what you paid for it.
The reason you see this interest in homosexual issues from the Church is because homosexuals wish not to be discreet with their sex lives and wish to flaunt their sin in the face of society to win approval. They are seeking to breakdown the bastions of what our society has always been based; the sanctity of marriage and family as the foundation of a moral society. The agenda that is being forced on us is ungodly and if it prevails, will work against the rights of the majority to quiet the minority. Good christians will stand against the agenda and the moral plunge this society will take once this society embraces homosexuality.
No doubt, some would like this not to come to light, but the controversy is being spurred by the radical homosexual activists with a strong desire to undermine the Judeo/Christian ethic that made this country great. We will stand and fight against it. Don't want the controversy? Quit pushing the agenda to redefine not only marriage but God and His Word.
The Bible does not address "slave marriage" because it is a Biblical non-issue. Many slave owners allowed their slaves to marry and have children. The Bible does NOT speak against slave marriage as it DOES speak against homosexuality. Therefore, homosexuality is wrong and "slave marriage" is not an issue. It is you who is making stuff up.
Why is everyone attacking Phileo? I thought (he/she?) made some excellent points. If you look at this website, the most tabs are dedicated to gay issues (under society, under churches<homosexuality, then there are the random issues related to gay rights under politics and whatnot. This website devotes an absurd amount of time and space going after gays rather than much bigger issues, and its because these articles get the most debate.
"Can I just say, I love your compassion!"
Compassion for who, Forgiven? I must be less of a positive thinker than you...if there is any compassion shown, it is not for the brothers on this post as the name 'phileo' would indicate.
Perhaps, brother Phileo would better serve the kingdom of God by speaking up for God and not spend so much time putting down Christians as that causes "bickering" between brothers.
I don't believe we should be bickering here, and I will not engage in what I consider bickering but to stifle one's right to speak out against the prevailing culture is just useless and we will not hold back the darkness by staying mute. As the culture gets worse, the church goes underground and no longer is relevent to the world.
The silence from the Chuch on social issue has in the past been complicit in the culture mores having prominence in the world today and the church remaining silent and ceasing to be salt and light. Isn't it bad enough the culture thinks we have no say, do we also need the same message sent by someone within the church?
"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmond Burke.
Phileo wrote: "Perhaps I'm self-convicted of this myself, as I spend way too much time on the internet, wasting my time dealing with garbage like this that serves no fruitful purpose for God's Kingdom."
I hear what you're saying. For me, though, I desire to dwell in His Word. I desire to deepen my understanding and increase my faith. I know that may seem strange being the conversations that go on, but it does.
iff wrote: "it may be easier to pick on the gays but there are actually bigger (literally and metaphorically) problems than homosexuality that the church needs to deal with."
Although, on this board some heated discussion do take place on the topic of homosexuality, I can assure you that the church does indeed deal with other topics in the confines of their churches.
Phileo wrote: "You know, the more I think about this, the more I have some questions for church-going Christians."
Phileo, although, I do agree to a point, I have to say that conversations/sermons in the church do go on about gluttony and divorce. Right now a rather heart breaking divorce is going on and it has been extremely taxing the amount of counseling going on. Everyone in the church is doing their absolute best to get this couple to see that it is not God's will for them to divorce, but to get to a point of reconcilation. There is heartache involved that takes validation and apologies and repentance for any kind of healing to come to this couple.
Churches, do not turn a blind eye to such things, I can assure you of that. Or at least from where I am sitting.
Can I just say, I love your compassion!
"easier to condemn others "
Is it easy for you to condemn other Christians, Phileo?
We've talked of your propensity for this before and you left the kitchen when it became too hot.
"Perhaps I'm self-convicted of this myself"; in that case brother, remove the log in your own eye before picking a speck out of another.
I'd like to see you stand up and defend God's word, rather than fault finding the Christians here that do, food for thought?
Good food for thought but to sit idly by and allow the public debate go on without our input would be just as wrong in fact it is what the church has done for far to long. This is not a who started it type argument. It has gone from forum to forum to forum. We also are not winning any souls for Christ by not standing up and defending the tenets of Biblical Christianity. Could it be a little more civil perhaps, but a case can be made that the writers of Scripture weren't exactly nice about some of the things they wrote about and even Jesus Himself got kinda of mad when people said things about Gods Kingdom or tried to change the meaning of Scripture so it is not without precedent. It is a fine line for sure. Gods Blessing In Christ Tom
phileo, if this is such a waste of time then why are you here?
phileo, churches are indeed talking to more issues than the ones that appear on these sites and as a matter of fact many of our SBC churches have a program called First Place which helps people to live physically healthy lives and includes a Bible Study component and in fact my wife teaches that study in our home church. Those of us who post on these sites are addressing the issues that are brought to our attention on these sites and we respond to others posts on these sites. And as delight said we come here to deal with these issues and issues associated with them and for many of us we also come to present what we believe is a biblical response to these issues.
Tom - I chose to change the subject because all of this back and forth bickering serves no positive purpose for the kingdom of God here on earth. We aren't winning hearts and minds here on a forum acting like Pharisees, pointing out everyone else's sin.
I find it deeply disturbing that so many self-righteous "Christians" have no problem whatsoever with this sort of juvenile vitriol, but have a problem when the finger is pointed back at them.
And the irony of your question is not lost on me. This article discusses a legal battle over privacy, and actually has nothing to do with homosexuality at all. But yet we've spun a web of deceit, because it's far easier to condemn others then it is to look at my own sad pitiful sinful self and remind myself that I am nothing without Christ.
We need to spend much more time in prayer, study and most importantly, worship of God, and less time sitting here wasting away on the internet.
Perhaps I'm self-convicted of this myself, as I spend way too much time on the internet, wasting my time dealing with garbage like this that serves no fruitful purpose for God's Kingdom.
Food for thought anyway.
ifeelfine, if I were to say I'm living an adulterers life that would mean I'm out committing acts of adultery, that is the main focus of my life. For you to say you are living the life of a sinner means that you are out committing acts of sin, that the main focus of your life is sinning, that you are willfully living in sin. Now if that truly descibes you then you seriously need to consider whether you are genuinely saved. Plus, are you on the verge of going back to overeating, because as a former addictions counselor when people in recovery start bragging or pointing fingers there is a good chance their on the verge of relapse?
philo i would give you the same question that I ask feel fine. Why do you wish to change the subject? We are talking about the Sin of homosexuality. A sin that Scripture despite the attempts of some here on this forum wish to deny but yet have no evidence for. If you wish to start up a agrument about gluttony do so on a differant forum. believer you are a God sent. It seems some wish to twist things around to say what it does not say and deny what it says. You bring clarity as well just as the other believers who are defending, yes defending God moral laws. Thank you Gods Blessing In Christ Tom
I find it humorous that suddenly they're concerned about persecution and rights now that the shoe is on the other foot!
They claim this will prevent them from raising money in the future. Doesn't that touch an underlying issue? Those with money and power will always decide the futures of the rest of us, fair or not.
believer: I didn' say anything about willfully, knowingly living in sin - I just said sinner's life. I bet some of those same overweight, prideful people have no idea that they are living in sin or they are rationalizing that they are not living in sin.
ifeelfine, congratulations on losing that weight, but is there a reason you needed to brag about that and I noticed you did not give God any credit for your success?
ifeelfine, others and myself have shared with you on numerous posts about those other forms of marriage you try to say were designed and ordained by God, but since you are so bent on legitamizing the sexual practices homosexuality and same-sex marriage you blantantly refuse to listen.
ifeelfine, find me a passage that shares that God ordained any other design for marriage?
ifeelfine, I did not say we don't sin as I know I do, but to say you live the life of a sinner is to say you are living in sin and if you are there is a high probability you are not genuinely saved. Do you think the Holy Spirit would take up residence in the home of a person who is willfully living in sin?
believer: You need to go back and reread that passage because it doesn't say that at all - plus I've posted several instances of marriages that were ordained and mandated by God and you've yet to say anything about that.
And FYI - I was a slave to food. I was almost Biggest Loser overweight and am no longer obese. I am 5-10 and now weigh 146 lbs - have great BP (110/60) and an athletes resting heart rate (about 45-50 BPM). Food is fuel to me now not comfort.
ifeelfine, Genesis 2:24, states God's original and only design for marriage and His Son, Jesus Christ reaffirmed that same design in Matthew 19:4-6 and Mark 10:6-9. So to say that the Bible does not say that is totally delusional on your part and once again a feeble attempt to condone sin and sinful practices. Plus, God's original and only design for sexual intimacy is between one man and one woman united as one in the sight of God for life through marriage.
believer: I have shared what I believe is the Biblical view of homosexuality - it is sinful in the same way heterosexuality is sinful.
As for a life of sin - Christ was pretty clear in the beattitudes that we all lead lives of sin. We may no longer be in bondage to it but we still lead lives of sin - we may not be slaves to adultry or what have you but sin is sin. Some folks who I bet you would call good Christians are probably overweight and I know some of them are prideful based on their comments.
ifeelfine, to lead the life of a sinner means to live in sin, if that describes you then once again your need to revaluate your conversion experience because through Christ we are free and no longer a slave to sin.
ifeelfine, to this point you've never shared your view about the sin of homosexuality, so what is the sin of homosexuality?
Prophet
"and I don't take the Bible literally."
Really? Then how do you "take" it?
Thank you for your last post Phileo. While we probably have differing opinions about the "sin of homosexuality" I have been trying to make the same point as you - it may be easier to pick on the gays but there are actually bigger (literally and metaphorically) problems than homosexuality that the church needs to deal with. God bless.
You know, the more I think about this, the more I have some questions for church-going Christians.
1. Since we are so opposed to homosexuality, why don't we talk about the rampant sin of gluttony so obvious to everyone but yet never discussed in any church body?
2. While we are quick to attack the homosexual for their sin, why do we continually overlook the divorces and the rampant adultery amongst heterosexuals leading the church?
My point is not to discount the sin of homosexuality, but to do what I think Jesus would have done in this particular situation. Just as we see in John 8, Jesus simply waits quietly while writing something in the dirt and then says, "You who is without sin may cast the first stone."
These folks need love first, not condemnation. Yes, they need to repent of their sin, as do we all.
The unfortunate irony of all of this is that while the church is so focused on one very public and popular sin they have no problem holding a church luncheon where everyone stuffs their already 100 pound overweight faces to their hearts content and sees nothing wrong with it, laughing and joking the whole way.
Just an observation, and I am as guilty as the next Christian of this sin. And no, this does not excuse the homosexual, but we all need to focus on what truly matters, and that is the condition of each of our hearts.
Afternoon, Phileo
Hope you've been well? Been doing some flagging?
To the Christians on this board who are arguing against homosexuality and calling it a sin, and are in a hot debate with the pro-homosexual folks I would simply advise you to heed the words of Matthew 7:6.
To those that are pro-homosexual I would simply say that God loves you, and wants a relationship with you. But using words like "your interpretation", "your definition", etc to alleviate your fears about your homosexual lifestyle and choices will never change the truth of God's word.
I'm not here to get into a debate over this at all. You can believe whatever you want to believe and be comfortable in that. I would also say that no amount of arguing will change anyone's heart.
I have to repent of my sin daily and ask for forgiveness from my Lord and Saviour. We will all stand before God's throne on judgment day. I can only pray that I was a good and faithful servant and that I was obedient to God's word, not because it was politically correct, or came into agreement with a majority of people here on earth, but because I was convicted by the Holy Spirit to follow God's laws because I love him.
I pray for all folks here that we would drop this shameful bitterness and pointless debate, and simply worship or Lord and Savior. May God's love manifest itself through the Holy Spirit and speak to each of your hearts today that everyone may know the truth, and the grace that so easily escapes each and everyone of us.
believer: Jesus (and to some extent Paul) made it clear that we all lead the lives of sinners.
believer: Your premise is flawed right from the get go - the Bible doesn't have an "original and only design" for marriage. I've pointed out many examples of different marriages in the Bible that are either mandated or endorsed by God.
ifeelfine, plus I don't know about you but I don't live a sinner's life, granted I don't lead a perfect life, but certainly not a sinner's life. And if you believe you do you might want to consider whether or not you've had a genuine conversion experience.
ifeelfine, when are you going to get it, if God's original and only design for marriage is one man and one woman united as one for life in the sight of God for life, which it is, then it doesn't matter what the civil authorities or even certain denominations choose to do about it, God's Word always takes precedence. You would be far better off studying the Word of God in order to become the Christ-like person God wants you to be rather than studying it to find loop holes to allow you and others to violate the teachings and truths taught in His Word.
Tom: We all live a sinner's life - you do, I do, everyone on this post does. I would venture to say that you are even in denial over some of your sin.
believer: But not legally - in the church yes, but not legally. I know of several Christian churches / denominations that will marry committed same sex couples so I guess we are in agreement that your original arguement is not valid.
Around and around we go mtg.mike and bryn and what not are most confused. mike if you are in a 'committed relationship with your partner and you are having any kind of sex period you have cross the line between Gods love and your desire and lust. bryn try surrendering your life to Christ and seeking His kingdom and righteousness and you will be set free from the sin that entangles you. You will then find a partner of the opposite sex God willing and you will be walking in the will and moral laws of God. Mike God did not randomly condemn "gay" is a sin He absolutely declared it a sin. Sorry. He who saves is waiting for you to answer, yea He stands at the door and knocks. Will you answer His call. Gods Blessing In Christ Tom
Tom, actually the Bible is silent on a gay man having a committed relationship since its not lust and since you're only assuming if/what kind of sex we have.
Prophet and Tom, neither of you addressed the fact that for all sins, there is some connection to it hurting on physically. God doesn't arbitrarily call something sin and just decide "Yea, that thing you're doing is going to separate me from you if you continue doing it." Sin somehow hurts his creation or hurts ourselves rather than others, and nothing in homosexuality does that. I love my partner, he loves me, neither of us have or will have an STD or AIDS, and we want to adopt a child. Forget for a minute that you think we're perverting love, because that notion comes after the idea that God just randomly decided to be gay is a sin. Can you think of any other sin that doesn't actually hurt someone, yet is called sin?
mtgburrell/mike
"religious people who persecute us follow their holy books literally."
I don't persecute homosexuals, and I don't take the Bible literally.
"There are very few homosexuals who reconciles their sexuality and faith..." And they do so to ease their conscience."
If you think that reconciling faith and sexuality is easy, you have absolutely no idea... My mom is a staunch christian, but my dad is a logical and secular man. I was brought up with a blend of both. My mom had a huge influence on me and hence I was quite religious when I was young, but when I got older, and acquired more secular knowledge, I found it harder and harder to reconcile with my faith. I have always had an attraction towards men, but didn't know that it was called homosexuality. When I discovered that around the age of 14, I rejected God. Using the very own wisdom he gave me, I used my secular knowledge, and logical thinking to refute the foundation of Christianity. That was easy. For I no longer need to believe in an exclusive God who irrationally rejects Muslims, Homosexuals, Buddhists, etc.
But that very same wisdom that helped me use my wisdom to deny his existence made me realize that without Him indeed, life was quite pointless for myself. And hence, I attempted to take my life away with a smile. Until today, nobody, myself and my family, knew how I got saved. I suspect it was because, some part inside me, I wanted to live.
Then there was an entire period where I kind of believed in his existence, but fought against him because I could not see his conscience nor his integrity through scripture.
And then after years of not giving up on me, I finally conceded. I remembered the children bible stories my mom used to read to me when I was young, and I realized that the stories in itself showed so much of his true values. It's only when the entire world befall on us, we find it hard to reconcile reality with faith. Which is why, until today, I believe that sometimes, a child can be a better preacher than a pastor for its purity.
I could have walked away with my worldly knowledge. Why do you think we even bother? Mind you, not many homosexuals I know are actually religious and most of them cringe when I tell them that I am. And it's even harder for me to find a partner who is. This is in no way the easy road.
Of course, you'll NEVER get some of the "Christians" on this Web site to admit that they might be in the not-chosen two thirds. Oh, no......impossible.
"An educated homosexual that I met told me this: 'Look at it this way. Those religious people who persecute us follow their holy books literally. And those holy books preach that only one religion would receive salvation. So if we only take Christianity, Islam and Judaism into consideration, there is a 2/3 chance that those people who persecute us would meet us in hell anyway.'"
Logic is logic. That's all I say. (from "The Wonderful One-Hoss Shay")
Bryan,
The reason why Tom said what he said is because it's true and he's warning Mike. You said "
Tom, why are you calling Mike's road wide? There are very few homosexuals who reconciles their sexuality and faith..." And they do so to ease their conscience. That is as far as the benefits of their reconciliation will take them. Sin feels good for a season, and that's what many homosexuals want. It feels good...it feels right. Unfortunately, it's neither.
Not many Christians will totally kill their flesh. Very few will ever walk the road of total surrender. Hardly any will be overcomers and victorious. There is a falling away that is happening. Many are following after doctrines that tickle their ears. They seek after milk, and will find themselves spiritually dead. They will seek to satisfy their flesh and it's desires, instead of following the Spirit which would compell them to separate themselves from sin.
I wish more people would understand that we are not to remain the way we were born. Jesus didn't die on the cross so that we can continue in sin. His death and resurrection are life changing. If a person is saved and his life does not change, has he truly been saved? Is his/her heart really turned towards God, or are they merely seeking "fire insurance"?
The Holy Scriptures say to "come out from among them and be separate", but we strive against the Spirit to stay among the dead. We are fine living in the stench of unrighteousness and death. We make our bed in the house of corpses and eat at their table. All the while we cry "God is with us! He is the God of death and filth. He will not call us to rise from our cess pool."
But still He calls, and few will hear. But they that rise above their earthly and fleshly lusts will be victorious and will rule and reign with Him. They will wear robes of white. Their reward will be great.
and that bryn confirms what we have been saying all along by your statement you have shown to not be a Christian. Jesus said "i am the way and the truth and the life" no comes to the Father 'cept thru me" So we all now know where you are at. Mike and those who live a sinners life are on the wide road to destruction the Bible is clear on that. You can call it persecution if you want, you as well as the rest of you who have the same world view will have to take it up with the one who had the Bible written God. His word is clear and unchangeing due to the whims of us humans. Gods Blessing In Christ Tom
"mike you can believe all you want but Scripture is clear your committed relationship with you partner is a sin and the road you are on is one that is wide and will lead to you alls destructions."
Tom, why are you calling Mike's road wide? There are very few homosexuals who reconciles their sexuality and faith, while there are a lot more who persecute based on the their interpreation of the bible? Whose road is wide and easy I wonder?
An educated homosexuals that I meet told me this: "Look at it this way. Those religious people who persecute us follow their holy books literally. And those holy books preach that only one religion would receive salvation. So if we only take Christianity, Islam and Judaism into consideration, there is a 2/3 chance that those people who persecute us would meet us in hell anyway."
See why I take the book for its value and not for its literal words? I believe that people of all religions, as long as they have the values of God, are embraced by God.
ifeelfine, read a good Black History book and you will find that slaves did indeed get secretly married.
mike you can believe all you want but Scripture is clear your committed relationship with you partner is a sin and the road you are on is one that is wide and will lead to you alls destructions. Sorry if that is harsh and hard for you to understand but it is the Truth of Gods Word. My prayer is that you will allow the Creator God to open your eyes to His truth not what you think it is. Jesus is still waiting for your answer Gods Blessing In Christ Tom
Tom, God doesn't arbitrarily call something sin. Anything in the Bible is called sinful because it somehow hurts us in the physical realm. Homosexuality does not hurt us (although you can make choices, gay or straight, that hurt your body sexually.) I am in a committed relationship with my partner and it betters the both of us. There is no sense in why God would call that sin, and its my belief (and the belief of many) that he doesn't.
DP: But slavery is not a sin - just ask believer. And now you're just making things up - what scripture supports slave marriage?
mike you see that's the problem you are trying to read into the passage something that is not there. He said marriage was between a man and a women confirming by the by what the OT said about marriage. Adultery is sex out side of marriage perhaps I should have stated it as fornication any way you cut sex outside of marriage is forbidden it is a sin one that God strongly warns against and quite frankly mike it doesn't matter if it is same sex opposite sex or animal to human sex and everything in between. Gods Blessing In Christ Tom
"In most states, slaves couldn't marry "
God didn't make our laws. The best we can do is accept His. Sin on the part of those states does not justify the sin of homosexuality.
"If marriage is defined as the emotional commitment between two people,"
Strongs word 1062 is the one used in the Hbr 13:4 "Marriage {is to be held} in honor among all, and the {marriage} bed {is to be} undefiled; for fornicators and adulterers God will judge."
The word 1062 is defined as both marriage and wedding. They are part of the same. So, no...the Bible does not define your relationship as marriage. It defines it as fornication. Still, you don't need the Bible's approval or God's to do what you want. Homosexuality is fornication.
Mikey Jesus did mention it in several ways two of which are, those who committed adultery are sinning and that marriage is between a man and a women period. no exceptions don't need to interpret anything read it for yourselves it is as plain as day. bryn how does freewill come into play? He gave us His Scripture and His spirit to guides us in all truth and the truth of the matter is Homosexuality is a sin. It is your choice to reject Him and His ways or not. As I have said a couple of times I have and do love many men. Would die for a most of them if not all. However if that love which comes from Gods Spirit in which He pours into those who repent and accept Jesus as Lord and turn from their wicked ways, If one perverts that love into some physical sexual activity with someone of the same sex or even a different sex but not married to them then is no longer Gods love but your own lust and desires and you can shipwreck your faith and end up on the wide road that leads to destruction. opps love to argue with ya but need to go to a wake. Gods Blessing In Christ Tom
DP: In most states, slaves couldn't marry (since they were legally not even people). Does that mean that all the black people that had kids together were sinning because they couldn't marry?
OK... I go away for a day and I can't find Mike's response anymore so I'll answer it here.
From the Mayo Clinic website:
Symptoms
Signs and symptoms of antisocial personality disorder may include:
1) Disregard for right and wrong
Right and wrong are based either on God's absolutes or on arbitrary absolutes. Christians base right and wrong on what God says is right and wrong. Either God is the judge of right and wrong or we determine this for ourselves. You have stated that you follow a social right and wrong which is not allowing God to say what is right and wrong.
2) Persistent lying or deceit
You tend to switch the subject when you begin to see your argument falling apart. At one point you said the Bible supports your life-style and now you say you follow a social definition. These are contrary. One position is a deception.
3) Using charm or wit to manipulate others
You do try to manipulate people into backing your position and when they will not be manipulated then you do some of the below.
4) Recurring difficulties with the law
Unknown - N/A
5) Repeatedly violating the rights of others
You've been doing this quite a bit. When your arguments start to fall apart you attack people like saying they are on a high horse or even worse.
6) Child abuse or neglect
Unknown - N/A
7) Intimidation of others
8) Aggressive or violent behavior
These go together with you. You're posts show a clear pattern of attacking and being quite adolescent when you feel backed into a corner.
9) Lack of remorse about harming others
I think you've actually apologized once for your myriad of attacks against many people here. I have seen you attack anyone who will not be manipulated by you.
10) Impulsive behavior
The time you apologized you spoke of getting angry. You're response in posting the way you did is "impulsive behavior" which many of the ADHD children I work with manifest at school and get in trouble for.
11) Agitation
Now, if I have to point this out just call 911.
12) Poor or abusive relationships
The earlier parts of this post show how your relationships here are poor and that you tend to verbally abuse people. Many have posted this sort of thing to you hoping you will come around. This is because we DO want a healthy relationship with everyone here. However, the basis of this website is to discuss things from a Biblical perspective. You believe a "social gospel" and not a Biblical one.
13) Irresponsible work behavior
Unknown - N/A
As for the comment about gays throwing some of the best parties. "Sounds pretty social to me." As you can see from the list of symptoms social interaction is required. Anti-social is not the same as non-social.
Daniel,
"First, I haven't seen any Bible verses that support sex between two men or two women. I have posted the greek words and the definitions on many verses which clearly mean sex between two men or two women is wrong."
I absolutely agree with you on that point. And if you take some time to read what I have written, you'd understand why.
Now, I would like to visit the notion of marriage. What is marriage? A paper from the civil court? A ceremony in the church? Or an emotional bond between two people where both pledges their heart to each other?
Do you think God would sanctify a marriage between me and a women when I am a homosexual and I am not emotionally attracted to her as one would be to one's partner? Do you think God would sanctify a marriage between a man and a woman where the woman is marrying solely for the riches of the man?
Honestly, I don't need the church's rituals to sanctify my marriage, all I need is my partner and God.
Now I would like to revisit fornication. If marriage is defined as the emotional commitment between two people, then it would be consistent that fornication is a sin since God doesn't encourage lustful desires because they often lead us to "unhappy" results.
"Open mindedness is what causes us to follow after false prophets."
On the contrary, narrow-minded people are more likely to go astray in my opinion.
Open-minded people, to me, are those who consider a nation and think for themselves if it's right or wrong. Narrow-minded people are those who refuse to re-evaluate their ideologies to see if they are right or wrong.
I am fairly narrow-minded I believe. Other than the period where I admitted to God that I have been wrong in rejecting Him just because I was told that He rejects all homosexuals, I've never had any experience where I had to re-evaluate any significant ideologies of mine.
But again and again, Prophet, the scripture is interpreted by us, no matter how much you would want to deny it, we interpret the scripture - you and I. Study the history of the catholic church and you'd see how often they change their interpretation of the scripture. There is nothing wrong with interpreting the scripture. You just interpret it with the mindset that homosexuality is wrong. But on what values the mindset is based on is the thing that should be questioned.
"So how can you be so sure that our interpretation is wrong when our blibical support is just as strong as yours?"
First, I haven't seen any Bible verses that support sex between two men or two women. I have posted the greek words and the definitions on many verses which clearly mean sex between two men or two women is wrong.
Homosexuality has absolutely no Biblical support. Let's review the fruits of the Spirit. In Galatians 5 where it speaks of the fruits it first speaks of the "works of the flesh are manifest" and among them is fornication. This is sex without marriage. This is an absolute definition with no deviation given. An unmarried person having sex is fornication. This is why gays feel it so important to be able to say they are married so that they can stop being guilty of fornication. Unmarried gays commit fornication which was punishable by death under the law. Period. For this reason alone homosexuality is wrong just like sex between unmarried heterosexuals.
Open mindedness is what causes us to follow after false prophets.
Yes it is. There are many false prophets. True. But we are test them by the Scriptures and by their prophecies. We can't be so open minded that we follow every prophet that comes along. We need to have our minds focused on God and His Spirit alone.
Prophet, not necessarily. There are many paths and many false prophets (no pun intended) and I think its better to keep your head up and an open mind so you can see what's what. Following down the straight and narrow without critically thinking isn't always a good thing.
Broadminded people brought us abortion, pornography, strip clubs, etc, etc. Apparently they are so open minded that their brains fell out. I'm proud to be narrowminded.
Wide is the path and broad is the gate that leads to destruction, but narrow is the way and straight is the gate that leads to life.
I smile whenever people call me narrowminded. That just confirms that I'm on the right path.
"That goes back to the gay agenda of indocrinating everyone to believe that sin is okay."
Not really. Why would I (a heterosexual) want to indoctrinate ANYbody? I only think that our children are more open minded about such issues. I know my four are. And I can only imagine how broad-minded THEIR children will be. It's time for America (and the Christian world) to grow up and grow out of such needless and harmful (to the bearer) hatreds.
mtgburrell/mike,
You said "Mike and I are (for what it's worth) in the mainstream of thinkers today."
Then don't call yourself a Christian.
". Your children or grandchildren with think more the way Mike and I do than the way you do, I assure you. (They probably already do.)"
That goes back to the gay agenda of indocrinating everyone to believe that sin is okay.
My last post was in response to Delight's "You don't want us to love you, you want us to agree with you."
Sorry I put that comment just floating out there....
Mike,
Yes. I am judging.
I'm judging sin.
"No one promised this life would be anything other than suffering"
Delight,
Are you serious?! This IS the promised land. Why would God create life if he doesn't want us to truly enjoy it? Even if I die today without finding my rightful partner, I would have no regrets, because as of now I enjoyed every bit of what God gave me - my parents, my friends, my everything. Make this your heaven. God gave us life because he loves us. Make this the promised land. Make heaven descend from Him, not us ascending to him. (surprisingly you'd find some scripture that supports this view)
Tom,
"He knew that this issue wouldbe a hot button issue back when He created the world."
If that is true then Human Beings would not have free rights. In fact God does not know the future (nobody does) because God cannot predict what you and I are about to do next. He gives us the freedom of choice. The miraculous thing is that every time we make a mistake in our life, he would us fix it.
Perhaps gradually, he'd help human beings see that there is in fact nothing wrong with men truly loving other men.
Prophet: "By the way, I'm not judging. I'm just repeating what the Bible says. Big difference." So tell us, are you judging or are you not?
Delight, I don't care if you love me or agree with me, but I want you to open your mind from such blatant lies about the gay community.
Tom, its funny that God knew it would be a hot button issue, but never once did Jesus even come close to mentioning it when he very easily could have.
I have seen people twist and turn and run try to convince people of a falsehoods but mike,andfeel,and mtg and brny take the cake. So once again The Bible says Gods is the same today as yesterday as tomorrow. He never changes neither does His word. He knew that this issue wouldbe a hot button issue back when He created the world, as the world turn further and further from the truth of His word so He made it simple and to the point several times in His word Homosexuality is a sin maybe a little worse then some maybe not as bad as others, but the end result is if your are living in this particular sin you have most likely shipwreck any salvation you may have had. In Other words you can't be in continuoes sin and be a Christian. Jesus said the road is narrow that leads to eternal life and the road is wide that leads to destruction. You who condone or live in the homosexual lifestyle are wrong and you are sinning. Jesus is waiting for you to repent and turn from you wicked ways. I'd like to argue longer but these tired bones need their rest.Gods Blessing In Christ Tom
These two must be interchangable, mtg and mike; sort of like a dialog with an alter-ego. It's a tough 'cross' to bear; you see persecution to the right and to the left. You don't want us to love you, you want us to agree with you.
Mike,
You said "Prophet, you have said before that its right for you to judge".
That's right. Christians are to judge sin.
Been there, done that Bryan; God doesn't mind us questioning Him or our faith and the one who persevers has a stronger faith because of it. This might be too hard for you to do because it doesn't "feel good". No one promised this life would be anything other than suffering...but you can't cry in your beer over it and muck around in the mud with sin all your days. There is a way out...and it will cost you your life either way; this world is not my home, I will go onto something better after this life.
God doesn't send people to Hell...people go there deliberately as you also wish, so be it.
"Coming out" is not cross bearing...obedience is. What a persectution complex you have, Mike, everything revolves around your sexuality. Really unbalanced.
Delight, I have crosses I'd care not to share with you, but of course I "pick up my cross and bear it." You can't fathom my journey through coming out.
"What a spin...you don't think others in sin don't wrestle and feel sorry for themselves? Or just the homosexuals?"
Oh no, my sympathy extends to many more - women who strive to be equal to men, prostitutes who strive to earn societal respect, many of whom were labelled as sinners by various religious institutions.
"All you can add is a shoulder to cry on and more justification for them to stay in slavery to sin with your idea of what a witness is."
Easier said that done Delight. Maybe one day, one day when a beloved one of yours; one whom you love with no doubt; comes to you and tell you that he/she did something which you think God deems abominable. And when all your God-given integrity and conscience tells you that it doesn't make sense for God to think it abominable. You would question God. And perhaps you'd see that many of times, there is no strict "right" and "wrong"; no objective "law", only subjectivity, life and love.
When someone comes to me in tears to tell me that "I like boys, but I am a Christian, and my family wants me to marry girls, and God wants me to marry girls, but I can't love them. I've tried but I just can't love them. And I am happy loving boys but I am forbidened to love them."
And if these are the people whom God are going to send to hell, then let me be with them for that would give me more peace then to look at them from heaven.
Bryan,
Did you not say on Dec 31st 2:10 pm on NJ Rules post, "But that is exactly what Jhil and I do.
When we see contradiction in the Bible. We ask God for his wisdom."
How are we to think otherwise?
What a spin...you don't think others in sin don't wrestle and feel sorry for themselves? Or just the homosexuals?
As far as the content of your words to God in your simulated message to him: God has the power to forgive and He sets us free from sin, there is no peace while we are holding onto sin. All you can add is a shoulder to cry on and more justification for them to stay in slavery to sin with your idea of what a witness is.
Bryan, either you will see the world through the human viewpoint (limited and finite) or you will trust in God and see the world through the Divine Viewpoint (unlimited and Infinite).
God doesn't expect you to witness to anyone while you are in Unbelief of Him and His ways.
"He has said in a post last month he and jh study together"
Lol, no JH and I did not study together. We had no conversations outside this post.
"'My words were pretty clear, HOW DID you read any equality between marriage of male and female to men with men sexual relations when I spoke about approving one and disapproving the other? Depart from Me.'"
Delight, I actually thought of that. Like simulated in my mind. If those were His true words to me, this would me mine to him:
"And so you expected me to witness the tens of thousands of children who feel that they are less of a human because they realized that they are physically attracted to people of the same sex, without doing anything? And so you expected me to sit on the fence and watch persecution after persecution take place upon those whom you created but condemn? Well then I am sorry. The conscience and integrity that you gave me prevented me from doing so, and if now you would want to punish me for it, then I shall do it willingly, and dwell in hell with no regrets rather than be in heaven but suffer eternally for the guilt of not doing what i can for the tens of thousands being persecuted by your followers.
This is probably a rhetorical question...does Mike think he needs to pick up a cross in this life OR does he believe he can just add Christ to his lifestyle and keep doing his own thing?
Forgiven,
In case you heard this theory of Bryan's before it's because you have. He has said in a post last month he and jh study together; no doubt working hard to justify the sin of homosexuality. What neither understand is it doesn't matter what WE say but it will be God who judges and one day He just might say to them something along the lines of; 'My words were pretty clear, HOW DID you read any equality between marriage of male and female to men with men sexual relations when I spoke about approving one and disapproving the other? Depart from Me.'
Bryan wrote: "So how can you be so sure that our interpretation is wrong when our blibical support is just as strong as yours?"
Actually, Bryan you're interpretation is relatively a new doctrine that most churches do not accept so it is not quite as strong.
"Here we go again. 55 can mean 85. Playdough anyone?"
I really find it amusing sometimes. We are both reading the same bible. How can you be so sure that your intepretation is correct?
Give me any verse in the bible that says that homosexuality is wrong, and I can tell you that based on its contemporary context or its literal meaning, it's about 2 men having sex.
And I have emphasized for a billionth time how 2 men having sex is similar to a male and a female having non-procreational sex.
But that is not contemporary homosexuality. So how can you be so sure that our interpretation is wrong when our blibical support is just as strong as yours?
ifeelfine, plus who ever said slavery was a sin?
ifeelfine, so how are the sexual practices of homosexuality a sin?
Mike22685 wrote: "perhaps you've been brainwashed and cannot think for yourself. Many who call themselves christians are just in it for the cult mentality."
How I hate when people say this!
"Homosexuality is not a sin! You interpret it as such, I interpret differently. "
Gal 1:6-8 "I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed."
Maybe this is why you feel so persecuted by us. We post the gospel which Paul preached and you post another gospel. Paul says to let you be accursed. So be it.
"Homosexuality is not a sin! You interpret it as such, I interpret differently. "
Here we go again. 55 can mean 85. Playdough anyone?
"I've always acknowledged that homosexual behavior can be sinful just like heterosexual behavior can be sinful."
Yep. He's saying that homosexual behavior is sin. It's about time.
rolln, perhaps you've been brainwashed and cannot think for yourself. Many who call themselves christians are just in it for the cult mentality.
rolln: Not as much skill as it takes to actually make slavery a sin given the verses in the Bible condoning the practice.
believer, you little pharisee, you: I've always acknowledged that homosexual behavior can be sinful just like heterosexual behavior can be sinful.
ifeelfine, so you acknowledge that the sexual practices of homosexuality are a sin?
mike -
Like I've said before, it doesn't take much common sense to read the Bible all the way through (in context) to understand that the homosexual lifestyle is contrary to God's design, but it take plenty of skill to manipulate the scripture to fit a particular sin (like homosexuality). I call it brainwashing and you, Mike, are getting plenty of it from you're supposed "scholars". Repent from the perversion and come to know Christ.
prophet: According to the Bible we're all sinners in need of redeption. Jesus didn't just come to save the adulterers. He came to save the obese, the lazy, the ones full of pride, etc. I guess it's just easy to pick on the gay folks.
Prophet and Rolln, you do more than just "repeat the Bible." You do judge everyone, and Prophet, you have said before that its right for you to judge, so which is it? YOU interpret the Bible to say its a sin, that doesn't mean its the be all end all because you say its so. There are plenty of brilliant scholars who would disagree, and I don't think majority rule works for Biblical interpretation being correct.
mike;
It's a Christian's responsibility to rid all frauds. Homosexual who refuse to admit that the lifestyle is sin is living a fraudulent life. Funny, they love saying how they're coming out of the close - only to be living yet another lie.
Why is it when I say that adultery is a sin, that the only ones that call me judgemental are adulterers?
By the way, I'm not judging. I'm just repeating what the Bible says. Big difference.
Well, according to the Bible it is a sin. And you've already pointed out that you don't live after the Bible's set of morals.
Homosexuality is not a sin! You interpret it as such, I interpret differently. I am sorry that our beliefs don't mesh, but you do not have ultimate wisdom to know the will of God, and therefore do not know that your interpretation is correct. I would NEVER judge someone the way you do, and I believe you are quite horrific for judging as much as you do. It is not your place, but you find any Bible passages you can to justify it because it gives you a sick sense of power over another human being. Sickening, truly sickening.
"Rolln, say what you wish, you are only offending Christ by driving his sheep away with your sharp tongue. "
HIS sheep hear his voice and they follow. Homosexuality is a sin. You follow the flesh not Jesus. You cannot serve two masters.
"Sexual sins seem to be the most prevalent and most powerful of any sins."
That's because it is a sin against oneself. 1Cr 6:18 "Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body."
Just FYI, fornication is any sex outside of Biblical marriage.
Mike,
You said "I didn't say its the only issue interpreted incorrectly, its the one I take the most offense to."
Why aren't you taking offense to ALL sin? True, this seems to be a hot topic. But I take offense to all sin. Even adultery. We have a Christian brother at our church who was married for 20 some years. He spent almost the entire marriage involved in one affair after another. She finally got fed up and divorced him. He thought that was cool, because now he could have sex with any woman he wanted to without the guilt of being an adulterer. Unfortunately, I (and the rest of our deacon board) had to inform him that he would still be sinning....even if he were to get married again. He didn't like that, so he left our church. Sexual sins seem to be the most prevalent and most powerful of any sins.
"tons of studies to prove it (no pun intended)"
Oh, take credit where credit is due....
is feelfine changing the subject again? Man talk about staying on topic. Gods Blessing In Christ Tom
"My sin is, unfortunately, one that SHOWS!"
Are you still a "growing boy" whose growing has switched directions? :P
My wife and I did that "water arobics for pregnant couples" thing at the YMCA. We and the instructor were talking one day about me and she said "well, some of it's fat but the rest isn't... fat floats and you sink like a rock!" I'm just a big country boy....
Hey, let's stay away from gluttony, folks. I want to cast the stones here - not receive them! My sin is, unfortunately, one that SHOWS!
ifeelfine, glutton, a person who greedily eats food, a person with a great capacity for something, great devourer. So a person does not necessarily have to be obese to be a glutton nor is obesity always the result of being a glutton. Bulemia is a good example.
Actually obesity is almost always caused by overeating - in other words gluttony. Just Google it - there are tons of studies to prove it (no pun intended).
rolln4him: there actually are fat acceptance and fat pride organizations but that is besides the point. The sin you are referring to is pride - not something else.
Mike wrote: "I didn't say its the only issue interpreted incorrectly"
Fair enough.
Also "this is just the one that is obviously on the forefront of my mind."
Yes, obviously.
I must go shovel snow, thanks for chatting.
I didn't say its the only issue interpreted incorrectly, its the one I take the most offense to. I suppose if an issue like gun control was near and dear to my heart, I might take issue with how people interpret thou shalt not kill. I think there are many pieces of the Bible that we interpret...this is just the one that is obviously on the forefront of my mind.
Mike22685 wrote: "Not really, because I think this is perhaps the greatest issue of the Bible. Both sides get extremely up in arms when it is discussed."
In your opinion homosexuality is the only issue interpreted incorrectly. But there must be a side that is correct Biblically speaking.
But, truthfully, I see the greatest issue of the Bible being whether or not people can believe God perserved His Word through His Holy Bible for all His children to know Him and come to Him and live in Him.
Not really, because I think this is perhaps the greatest issue of the Bible. Both sides get extremely up in arms when it is discussed.
Mike22685,
You're right about what many believe about "killing". You stated you did not believe in the Bible as we now have it. I'm just curious if there is any other issue/part of the Bible you feel just as strongly is not an accurate interpretation of God's Word?
Forgiven, I think I take such issue with homosexuality because it has come under the most fire recently. I suppose people could make an issue of other things in the Bible, such as "thou shalt not kill." There would be some people who say that means no matter what, and others would argue self defense or war is allowable, although not directly stated in the Bible.
No one has ever answered my question about precedence (unless I missed the answer): Is there precedent for what Jerry Brown is trying to do? I can understnad his motivation, but his actions seem illegal to me (a non-lawyer).
Mike22685 wrote: "about God's power, not actual occurrences."
Even if this were to be true ~ We can have faith that He would preserve His Word through His Holy Bible.
So it's the "stories" you aren't sure if are true or not? I also believe it takes faith to believe the "stories" are actual recounts of real events.
Do you see any other teachings of God's Word to be "not understood" such as how you view the homosexulity?
Forgiven, I think it may be my Catholic upbringing, but we are taught that things like Sodom and Gemmorrah (spelling?) and Noah's Ark are more stories about God's power, not actual occurrences.
Mike22685 wrote: "The way the Bible reads today is after thousands of years of revisions and translations, so no, I do not believe it all in its current form,"
I will agree it takes faith to believe God would preserve His Word through the pages of the Holy Bible. And I will grant you there are bibles that have been interpreted.This is why I try to stick with a Bible that is translated from the original text, although there is some words that have been included that are understood for today's language.
Are there any other issues/parts of the Bible has we now have it that you do not agree/believe in other than homosexuality?
Mike-"Do not judge lest ye be judged. "
Luk 17:3 "Be on your guard! If your brother sins, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him."
So, if you don't want our rebuke then you are admitting you are not a Christian. Problem solved.
Tom, I don't make any choice but to be out or not. If you think I chose to be gay, it is clear you refuse to let yourself have an honest conversation with a gay person. Perhaps you should, rather than plugging your ears to anything that might violate your beliefs.
Rolln, what ignorant statements? The Bible says do NOT judge lest ye be judged, let he without sin cast the first stone, etc etc etc. You DO NOT have the right to judge me, and I think people who want to judge will twist the Bible to suit themselves then scoff at those who call them out.
mike-
Despite Delightnthelord showing you scripture about judging, you still make such ignorant statements. I'm glad you are on this site, because you are simply providing evidence of the Truth of God verse the deceived. I think the reason that you hang around is because you do yearn for Him, but very confused. Press on and work our your salvation.
but mike it isnt our judgement it is Gods judgment on you for the life style you choose to live. That is why He says you must repent of your sin, or sin no more as Jesus said. That is why you must walk the narow road that leads to life not the wide road you are on that leads to destruction. Gods Blessing in Christ Tom
Rolln, its not respect if they don't have the guts to speak up to you. Its not a loophole in belief just because you interpret the Bible differently. The way the Bible reads today is after thousands of years of revisions and translations, so no, I do not believe it all in its current form, but I believe in God regardless of reading each and every word of the Bible, and it IS NOT for you to judge me about my relationship, not any of you (that is, unless, you are pure of sin.)
Hey Bryan,
You may be surprised to know how God feels about pride. Here are just a few...no interpretation necessary:
"The wicked in his proud countenance does not seek God; God is in none of his thoughts Psalm 10:4
"God resists the proud, But gives grace to the humble." James 4:6.
"Though the LORD is on high, Yet He regards the lowly; But the proud He knows from afar."
Psalm 138:6
"Everyone proud in heart is an abomination to the LORD; Though they join forces, none will go unpunished." Proverbs 16:5
"A proud and haughty man--"Scoffer"is his name; He acts with arrogant pride".
"He has shown strength with His arm; He has scattered the proud in the imagination of their hearts."
You may have a man centered religion (not a Christ-centered relationship) if you believe 'pride' is a good thing.
but dont you see byn if you say you are a Christian and continue to live a live of sin re the homosexual lifestyle then your faith is shipwrecked and you can not make the claim you are a CHristian doesnt work that way. If you go to a chruch that marries same sex people then it to is no longer a Christian church but is apostate and Jesus will remove His lampstand from it, spew it out of His mouth if you will. Sorry byn you need to be held accountable and you, mike, feet, feelfine as well as the others that try to twist the clear teaching of Scripture into something it is not need to repent and turn from your wicked ways. Jesus is waiting what is your answer? what say you. Gods Blessing In Christ Tom
I am a proud homosexual and a proud Christian.
It's ridiculous to say that it's a conflict. The bible literally said that nobody should work on the sabbath. I bet half the people in this post do. So is that a conflict as well? Should you all not be Christians now?
And I would more than want to work for a Christian Institution. One that is welcoming to homosexuals of course.
ifeelfine72,
Changing the subject here will not make the original one disappear . . .
Then He said to them ALL, "If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow Me.
For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will save it."
Mike, this applies to you and all of us. If you will not do this you cannot follow Christ and if you hold tightly to your life (as your posts indicate), you will lose it. Far from hating you, we lovingly admonish you.
Amen, rolln4him. They are those who call good evil and evil good. Woe unto them! They deceive and are deceived.
mike-
Like I've said before, I have far more respect for my gay friends that admit that their lifestyle is condemned in the Bible (it doesn't take much more than a 3rd grade reading understanding to know this), than those that are gay and trying to "fit" into the church. But my gay friends aren't Christian either. I witness to them in a far different way then I would to you. You call it harsh, but Jesus wasn't exactly very tender hearted either at times. The gay community may be able to resurrect a church like replica, but it'll always be a fake. Those supposed "gay friendly" churches are doing nothing more than leading the lost down the path to destruction. I think what Delight and many other on this post are trying to tell you and others like you (gays being "Christian") is that you stand condemned already. So repent, join a group like Exodus and start on the road to having a relationship to the Giver of Life - Jesus Christ!
Mike, we don't need to pretend....It is not I who says... God says, you will either believe Him or spend your life seeking loopholes in His Word so you can keep hold of the old man who wants to continue in sin. I don't need to meet you to know the truth about you; we all must crucify the flesh to follow God, you just don't want to crucify the flesh and live a pure life:
"Therefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and rest your hope fully upon the grace that is to be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ; as obedient children, not conforming yourselves to the former lusts, as in your ignorance; but as He who called you is holy, you also be holy in all your conduct,
because it is written, "Be holy, for I am holy." 1 Peter 1:13-16
You pretend to know so much about my relationship with God, which is impossible. You try to sum me up because I am gay and judge me up and down without really knowing ANYTHING about me. How dare you saw I don't love God enough? How terribly arrogant.
"love in your hearts for your gay brethren"
No such thing, Mike, as "gay" brethren, there's your misunderstanding...as you say "Its BS clear as crystal."
Take it up with God, He's the one who inspired the writings of Romans 1, Lev 18 and 1 Corinthians 6:9.
The fact is that YOU don't love God enough to carry your cross during this lifetime by honoring God through abstinence and obedience. This life is but a vapor...eternity will be endless, the choice is clearcut.
You are in unbelief as you cannot have God as Master and serve the master of homosexulaity, too.
Do not judge lest ye be judged. Let he among us without sin cast the first stone. Wow, didn't realize how many saintly people were on this discussion board. Keep ganging up, I can tell you there is not an ounce of love in your hearts for your gay brethren, no matter how trendy it might be to say "love the sinner hate the sin." Its BS clear as crystal.
believer;
Great point about knowing the difference.
Ifeel:
Do you see Gluttony Pride Parades? Nobody that I know of that is fat is proud of the fact of being fat.
ifeelfine, are you talking about gluttony as oppossed to obesity? Because they are two very different issues.
Online4him: Don't forget about obesity - among the sins you mentioned, you forgot that one. If you live a habitual life of sin (including the sin of obesity) then you cannot inherit the Kingdom, right Online4Him?
So, where is all the talk about "hate-speech"? I find it confusing that the pro-gay community isn't crying "hate-speech"...quite saying those bad things against the supporters of Prop 8. This behavior by the pro-gay only proves the points I've been making all along.
delight -
Way to go brother. Great verse for those on the INSIDE. Mike is pretending to be on the inside, so we'll play along for his sake. I pray for those on the outside so I pray for Mike and that if he truly believes in Jesus as his Lord - that he'd come to repentance of the lie Satan is throwing out to him.
Mike's claim:"You CAN be a Christian and be gay, that is not your place to judge."
Absolutely, it is our place to judge your claim of Christianity and your homosexual sin:
For what have I to do with judging those also who are outside? Do you not judge those who are INSIDE? But those who are outside God judges."
You claim for yourself you are INSIDE and you are clealy in sin according to the Scripture...that makes it an imperitive from God that you will be judged by us.
If you don't care to be judged, don't post on CP or continue to claim Christianity.
Mike, you serve two masters,"No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or else he will be loyal to the one and despise the other."
You obviously love your homosexuality but I don't see love for Christ in ANYTHING you have posted. You obviously don't love the Christians here, but if you were a Christian it is an imperitive from God that you must love your brother as well...if you don't love your brother you don't know God:
"If someone says, "I love God," and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen, how can he love God whom he has not seen?"
mike-
You're not a sheep. You are a wolf. It's the duty of all Christians to recognize and chase off the wolves. So either repent or scram.
I agree with Tom, anyone who refuses to repent will in the end regret it. Christains can not live a habitual life in fornication, adultery, homosexuality, etc and expect to be in the kingdom.
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven (Matthew 7:21).
My grandfather was an anti-KKK mayor of a small Southern city during the 1920s. He was sandwiched in between two pro-Klan mayors, too. For his stance, my grandfather, along with my grandmother and my young mother and aunt, got death threats and rocks trough the window and a gasoline fire in the front yard. He was afraid for his family, but he did not relent. I understand that these Yes on 8 donors may be nervous, but if they have the strength of their convoctions, they should be PROUD to have donated to what they believe in, even though I think they are fighting a losing battle, and not even God is on their side (again, I think). Why slink around - even if you are the sneakiest, most manipulative Mormon or Baptist or Episcopalian out there? What wimps! Stand up for what you believe. I hope no one on the opposing side is trying to remain anonymous. Of course, we have cowards in both camps, since this issue has pro and con activists from every segment of every American town across the country.
mike you can not be a actively involved in any sin like homosexuality and be a Christian very long. Christ said the road is narrow that leads to life. Wide is the road to destruction. Gods Blessing In Christ Tom
Rolln, say what you wish, you are only offending Christ by driving his sheep away with your sharp tongue.
mike-
You are delusional when you say you can live the perverted lifestyle and be considered a Christian. Yes, you are in America and you can say whatever you so desire to some extent. I suppose I could go around and say I'm a physician all I want, but those that know me would just laugh.
How ironic, as a nonchristian, to find myself quoting the bible with regard to
The Bible clearly addresses the desire for concealment and anonymity in one's affairs. Here's one such example:
"For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed."
John 3:20
I believe this applies to any alleged right to affect the lives of other people from behind a screen of legislated "privacy". Consequently, I regard Mr. Bopp as representing hypocrites and cowards.
The Bible does not exempt Christians from openness and honesty in public life due to fear of hostile correspondence. If we choose to promote or condemn causes in Christ's name, then we may not, as Christians, conceal such behavior.
Fors, your post just now had nothing to do with your previous ignorance. DP, my point was that insurance companies will not give benefits to your dog, as Fors so crudely implied.
Now...if someone made the same threats against a gay person in CA the government would be out in force tracking down those "hate speech" thugs yet I don't seem to see anything being done. So much for any grounds for saying the pro-gay agenda isn't violent and non-tolerant.
"benefits require both partners to provide employment documentation before an employer will give health care benefits"
That's the same with non-gay. It's an insurance thing to see who is the primary and who is the secondary carrier. I had to do the same thing when my wife and I were both employeed.
"Rolln, no! You CAN be a Christian and be gay, that is not your place to judge. "
That's right. It's God's place to judge and He has.
fors, grow up. The pet argument is old (seeing as how they don't even have their own insurance plans and domestic partnership benefits require both partners to provide employment documentation before an employer will give health care benefits.) You trivialize an issue because you do not understand it, and that is a real shame.
"But Geoff Kors, executive director of Equality California, the gay rights group that led the campaign against Proposition 8, called it hypocritical for supporters of the measure to try to overturn voter-approved campaign finance laws. "
But it is ok for his supporters to overturn voter approved bans such as Prop 2 back in 2000 that defined marriage as between a man and a woman... Who's the hipocrite.....
"I kind of have to agree with Mike, though certainly nobody expects us to act like Christ."
Christ does, or does you version of the bible change that to...
I'm not saying that I do, but I have had friends in the past who are very devout Christians who are also gay and I'm sure it would break them to know they would be turned down solely because they were gay. I think its complete ignorance.
Mike,
Out of curiosity . . . why would you (as an example) want to work at a Christian institution?
Rolln, no! You CAN be a Christian and be gay, that is not your place to judge.
mike-
Ok! I'll stop talking and just keep writing.
I'm not at all saying that being gay means any of what you say. But in the context of hiring, and as a Christian, when I hear that a openly gay man wants to work for me it tells me - especially if it were a Christian school - that his personality is flawed. Flawed because he/she is ignorantly applying for a position that is in direct conflict with the lifestyle. Similar to an alcoholic wanting to apply to be a wine tester. Or it would tell me that he/she is a divisive person because despite he/she knowing its a Christian organization and respect the beliefs of those involved, they apply anyway to force that organization to "conform".
Rolln, you may want to stop talking now, as the more you talk, the more ignorant you sound. Being gay is not a part of my personality. My being gay does not effect who I am in any way other than the fact that I love a man. It doesn't mean I am less responsible, that I am queeny and whiney, etc, etc, etc. You assume too much just because I am gay, and that is not Christian, at all.
forsaltnlight,
Good spirit there! God Bless!!
rolln: What type of applicant tracking do you use?
mike-
Being gay is a part of your personality. Alcoholics I know are also very hard workers, but I wouldn't hire one.
The private Christian school in our area doesn't and wouldn't hire a active homosexual either. Not because they may not be a good teacher, but because they'd consider an active gay person as a non-Christian. Stamped: Not qualified.
2 Peter 2:1,2
1 But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction. 2 And many will follow their destructive ways, because of whom the way of truth will be blasphemed.
1 Cor 13:6
Love.. does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth
John 3:16
Rolln, an alcoholic is clearly different than someone who is gay. Me being gay says absolutely nothing about my personality, work ethic, or responsibility, despite what you might think. I am an excellent, hard working teacher. Imagine if the school system found out I was gay and fired me just for that?
Mike-
Quite honestly, by reading your posts for quite sometime, you wouldn't know what being Christ-like is if it hit you upside the head.
Hiring someone because of a certain lifestyle has always been a factor in the hiring process. Would you hire an alcoholic? Human resource departments are now looking at an applicants credit rating, Facebook, and other places to help them determine is the prospective employee would be suitable for their workplace. I feel it should be my right to say that the homosexual lifestyle is NOT a good quality in a potential employee. Case in point: Churches have this right and will never hire an unrepentant homosexual. I could go into this in great detail as to why, but that's a whole other discussion.
Though the law is closing in on this and may force an employer to hire homosexuals - as is the case in many places of employment now, I still know how to get around this as most skilled human resource managers can do. I know for a fact that I was overlook for a position based on my Christianity. Can I prove it? NO! Most wouldn't challenge it in court due to the expense and that's why discrimination (not allows a bad thing) will continue to exist.
"Rolln, not hiring someone because you disagree with something in their personal life most certainly is not Christ like."
I kind of have to agree with Mike, though certainly nobody expects us to act like Christ.
The thing is, being homosexual is just a small part of us, it doesn't mean that all homosexuals have the same values and it certainly doesn't mean that homosexuals and christians cannot have the same values.
Rolln, not hiring someone because you disagree with something in their personal life most certainly is not Christ like.
chicago;
I know you've been on this site for a long time posting and so forth. We're grateful that you don't condone violence or harassment toward anyone, but the reality is as the cultural war heats up the radicals on both sides of the issue come to the surface. There WILL BE violence and harassment. Reality states that there will be discrimination on both sides for as long as humans and sin exists. There are ways executives, human resource managers, etc. can discriminate without getting detected and it has been going on for ... well, as long as humans have existed. I'm in a position of hiring people now and I know how to hire those that have the same values I have and that would reflect my company. I would never hire a professed gay person no matter how qualified they would be. Do I state that on my website- NO! So you may be surprised that I would tell these supporters of Prop 8 to drop their lawsuit, let the discrimination, harassment, intimidation, death threats go forth and take the cause of standing against perversion like homosexuality like Christ would - He died for us and we may have to take on the ultimate price of death as well.
chicago says; "As usual, the right-wingers want things both ways. "
Good to know that Barack Obama has done a full disclosure of his contributors!
What's that? He hasn't? And refuses to?
Good to know that Barack Obama has become a right winger!
I don't condone violence or harassment toward anyone because of the way they vote, but the hypocracy here is simply amazing.
The Yes on 8 campaign used these same records to blackmail the No on 8 supporters, and now they want these same records made anonymous.
As usual, the right-wingers want things both ways.