An employment tribunal has upheld the claim of a Christian relationship counselor that he was wrongfully dismissed after expressing concerns over counseling same-sex couples.
The tribunal rejected Gary McFarlane’s claims, however, of religious discrimination and unfair dismissal.
McFarlane was suspended by Relate Avon in March 2008 after he told his manager that his Christian beliefs meant he would not be able to offer sexual counseling for same-sex couples.
Relate said in a previous hearing that it had dismissed McFarlane because he was not able to meet the requirements of its equal opportunities policy, which states that all clients must receive equal treatment regardless of their sexual orientation.
Andrea Minichiello Williams, director of the Christian Legal Center, said that laws preventing religious discrimination were “in danger of becoming a dead letter.”
“The law is in a confused state; in the case of Lillian Ladele, the Islington Registrar, the Court held that Christian belief must give way to the rights of same sex couples; but in the case of Gary McFarlane there is a finding of wrongful dismissal,” she said.
“The courts and public are confused; we call on the Government to recognize the legitimate expression of conscience by Christians in the area of sexual orientation and provide protection where necessary.”
The ruling comes after an employment appeal tribunal ruled in December that a north London council had not acted unlawfully in disciplining a Christian registrar who refused to perform same-sex civil partnerships.
McFarlane was represented by Paul Diamond, the same religious liberties specialist who represented check-in worker Nadia Eweida. She lost her religious discrimination case against British Airways last year after the airline banned her from wearing a Christian cross necklace.
RSS
believer, I have found out that there are high schools just for gays. One is in New York City and the other is in Milwakee. Also, Chicago is thinking about creating a high school just for gays.
Many gay kids are not doing well in regular high schools and are dropping out. However, in the gay high schools there is a postitive track record and they gay kids are graduating.
Also, I found out that Obama is thinking/talking about creating high schools just for gays.
My wife's sister is heterosexual but at this point in her life wants absolutely nothing to do with men because she went through a very difficult marriage and bitter divorce. As I've said before just because a person prefers to be with people of the same sex and has no desire to be with others of the opposite sex does not make them a homosexual.
I know of a guy who is heterosexual (58 yrs old) and isn't interested in women and marriage because he says all women want to do is tell you what to do and spend all your money leaving you with nothing. lol
ps: a true story to the best of my understanding on what he says.
nololady,
I was one of those who wasn't interested in girl until I was a senior in high school. I don't know why, and I didn't care. I wasn't too busy with anything. I just didn't have that desired.
No prop, thanks for asking for clarification.
OK, thanks for explaining what you mean by it Mike22685.
Star, the most obvious way I figured it out was becoming sexually aroused at the thought of sex with a man, but on top of that, dating girls there was just never that spark of wanting to be in a committed relationship with them. With my partner, he's my best friend and confidant, and of course there is the sexual attraction.
Mike22685, just what consistuted your attraction to males? I don't know anything about this, I am not judging you, I am just curious about what you mean by being attracted to the same sex. Define what you mean by attraction.
and I don't think that really was the message, certainly never from my group. We would talk to the kids about what being gay meant and why it was hateful to use terms like "that's so gay" or f-gg-t.
Mike22685: Your comment about your sexuality doubts in 8th grade strike me. I don't assume to know anything about your story, but I know a number of boys who had no interest in girls until they were 18 yrs old or even older. Some were too busy with their video games. This, to me, is a reason not to have someone telling an 8th grader that a way to determine if you are homosexual is if you don't have interest in girls.
Well, then if that's how your son took it, all I can say is that group was doing a bad job at their job :) I know from my personal experience as a youth educator, we did NOTHING of the sort and we very, very effective in creating conversation and making a lot of macho tough guys realize "Hey, I can be friends with someone who is gay and not be perceived as gay myself." It was an amazingly rewarding job.
mike22685, according to my son the group was very confrontational with the students, but to be honest I don't ever remember being taught what it meant or how to know I was heterosexual and as a matter of fact that was an issue I struggled with as a teen and I may have very well be a student they could have convinced I very well might be homosexual when needless to say I was not.
yes, here's the struggle I personally have with that. I believe that some of the criteria used in determining if a person is a homosexual is faulty. I may have shared this with you before, but I have come to believe there is only one criteria to determine if a person is a homosexual that is they cannot receive sexual gratification in any other way other than either physically or mentally having sexual intimacy with someone of the same sex only. My fear is that if it is based on any other criteria they are either purposely or inadvertently leading people and if their doing this with teens very vulnerable people to come to believe they are something they very well might not be.
Oh Believer, wise up please! You know perfectly well why we don't have heterosexual education or heterosexual pride weeks, for the same reason there isn't a white history month, because EVERYDAY you are taught, whether through school or through the media, what it is to be white or to be straight. I have no doubt that the group did not label people, but rather spoke in blanket terms so that if there were kids questioning their sexuality they knew there were in fact resources to help them. I started questioning in 8th grade when I realized there was no attraction to girls despite my friends starting to get girlfriends, and a presentation like that would have been monumentally helpful.
Believer, as is our custom we tend to branch off and have our own sub-discussion.
I'll concede that there are probably some in the gay community that see their quest as "recruiting." In any group of people there will be outliers from the norms. Putting them aside for the moment and focusing on the majority of the gay community, I have a different light to cast on your "being natural" argument. It it more the issue that significant portions of society do not see homosexuality as normal or natural that in their eyes necessitates the teaching and celebration. Just as the proselytizing comes from a good place (most of the time) for the most part (conceding the existence of the aforementioned outliers) the celebration and teaching comes from a desire to afford younger individuals, who in their own soul searching may discover that they are homosexual, an easier time adjusting and being accepted by their peers. By no means is it a perfect system and perhaps as larger society becomes more accepting and accustomed to homosexuals and homosexual relationships such intrusive presentations will not be necessary.
yes, I never thought your other post insinuated my son was homophobic, but I just wanted to clarify that point so you wouldn't think that with regards to my response to that post.
yes, but when's the last time a group from an organization went into the schools to teach seminars on how to know you are a heterosexual or how about a week of celebrating being a heterosexual. I mean if being a homosexual is natural and normal why celebrate it or why do we need to taech a person to know if they are homosexual? It sure appears to me that there are some in the homosexaul community who are bordering on recruiting candidates to their cause and lifestyle so why not target one of the most vulnerable groups of people out there, teens who are in the midst of struggling with who they are already.
Believer, I was never insinuating that your son has homophobic tendencies. I was merely expressing my doubt that the incident occurred exactly as you describe. If it did then there's no question that it was inappropriate and unacceptable. However, as I suspect, if they were merely suggesting that people do their own soul searching and providing personal anecdotes about how they came to their own realizations to facilitate the soul searching of the students then there is really no problem with that. As you mentioned, it is a long process to find oneself. This is a lifelong journey and my guess is that they trying to help the students along, gay or straight.
The thing that I will never understand about the Christians on this board is why they assume that everyone is so easily indoctrinated. The fact that someone says that homosexuality is acceptable doesn't mean that by listening and perhaps even becoming tolerant leads to homosexuality.
star2, I'm not sure if it was a funding issue or concerns from the public and from what I understand it may not be a dead issue.
yes, the reality is what they did was both unethical and unreliable since the only thing that can determine if a person is truly homosexual alone is if they cannot receive sexual gratification in any other way than either physically and/or mentally having sexual intimacy with someone of the same sex. Plus, even my son as a junior in high school said most teens don't even know who they are let alone what they are and here these people come in and start labeling people. And before you think my son is a homophobic or hates homosexuals in college he shared a townhouse with a homosexual and they still stay in touch to this day.
believer, why did NYC decide not to follow thru with their plans?
Things just aren't the same now as they were when we were in school back in the 50's and 60's. What we have now the country can give thanks to the US Supreme Court. If they hadn't sided with the atheists back in the 60's to throw God out the school door we wouldn't be experiencing the judgment of God like we are. As much as non-believers and liberal Christians want to say God's Word is not true they are finding that indeed it is true, though, unfortuntantely are too blind to see it.. We as a nation are certaintly experience Romans 1 to the letter of God's Word.
If I had any children I wouldn't send them to a public school. I wouldn't want them to be exposed to homo and free for all sex education, the psuedo-science of evolution, and moral relativism. I would either homeschool my children or place them in a Christian school.
Also thanks for sharing what your son experienced in high school.
Believer, not to call you out on your anecdote I still think that something got lost in translation here. Clearly you weren't there and are relying upon second hand information. The most likely fact pattern is that the group of advocates came to your son's school, laid out those signs and then encouraged the students who exhibited those signs to consider if they were indeed gay, and if so come out of the closet. There is a world of difference between encouraging soul searching to find your identity and declaring that if you demonstrate these signs (other than an enjoyment of sexual intercourse with someone of your own gender) you are homosexual.
star2, NYC was thinking about doing that very thing with regards to starting a school for homosexuals only, but changed their mind.
mtg, I know in the late 90s when my son was a high school student in Montpelier, VT, a group of homosexual advocates came in and spoke to signs that might indicate a person is homosexual and encouraged any students who had any of those traits to come out of the closet and accept the fact that they were a homosexual, this was done with the school's permission and with no notification sent home to the parents.
Star2, it is amazing how quickly you can descend from the reasonable to the absurd.
"There are gay organizations, and liberal school administrators/lawmakers that are wanting to exposed young children in kindegarden and the early years in elementary school that gay behavior is an acceptable lifestyle without parental consent."
So far pretty reasonable. I can understand that some misguided and ignorant parents might not want their kids to learn tolerance. However, by your own words they are merely teaching that such lifestyles are acceptable. At the end of the day, as the MA Supreme Court stated the goal of schools is to produce healthy and well adjusted children who can be productive members of society. Considering that there are gay Americans and that they will not be going anywhere any time soon, it is in the state's interest to foster ACCEPTANCE of gays. Early childhood is actually the most appropriate time to teach these things because it is before the children have any concept of sexualized behavior and rather just learn to understand the loving relationship aspect of homosexuality (which I have no doubt some plebeians here will refute).
"Some even have taught the children that if they possess some trait that is considered a trait that is considered more suitable to the opposite sex than that means that they are gay and they should pursue that orientation."
Here is where you delve into the absurd. This is likely based on anecdotal evidence from someone with an agenda of their own. No question that if that actually occurred that teacher should be fired for overstepping his or her bounds; however, you surely can't believe that this is the norm. In any case, please provide documentary proof as to this claim if you expect anyone who doesn't believe everything the bible says to lend it any credence.
Star, tell me about the incident where the children are being told they should pursue being gay, because since being gay is not a choice, I can't imagine how that would work out. Teachers teach kids about society, and if there is gay marriage in our state we have every right to read a book like king and king, especially if there are children with gay parents in the school. All children have the right to come to school and feel safe and represented. Reading a book like King and King or Heather Has Two Mommies, is not going to scar the children for life. Worst case scenario, the kids go home with a few questions and you can then discuss the issue with your child how you see fit. Schools are not indoctrinating, they are teaching.
Yes_I_am_a_Jew
There are gay organizations, and liberal school administrators/lawmakers that are wanting to exposed young children in kindegarden and the early years in elementary school that gay behavior is an acceptable lifestyle without parental consent. Some even have taught the children that if they possess some trait that is considered a trait that is considered more suitable to the opposite sex than that means that they are gay and they should pursue that orientation.
Most parents, Christian or not, don't want their young children being exposed to that. The school won't notify them that that topic will be discussed so they can opt their child out of that discussion and when they find out and sue over it the courts throw the lawsuit out. If that is not forcing a child to be exposed and perhaps encouraged to pursue that lifestyle then I don't know what is. Parents have a right to decide what their child is exposed to in a public school when it deviates from "reading, writing, and arithematic". To deny the parents that right is wrong. They deny parents that right because they know that most parents will object. But the gay community wants to educate young minds to their lifestyle so they will find acceptance in the future when these kids grow older.
It is the responsibility of the parents to educate their children about the lifestyle choices of people. Parents have a right to instill their moral/religious values in their children. The gay community, the public school administrators, the teachers, etc have no right to over step that boundary and try to erode away the moral/religious teachings of the parents by secretively teaching the children that gay behavior is an acceptable alternative to heterosexual behavior.
Why not create a charter school just for gay kids? All the students would be the same; there would be no discrimination based on sexual orientation. Plus, they may be able to learn better because they are with people like themselves.
Schools have been created just for girls and they have found, in general, that the girls learn better when they don't have to compete with the boys who they find intimindating.
If it works for the girls why wouldn't it work for gay kids?
Forgiven, its hysterical (especially if you're the presenter and get to watch a room full of adults bust out in animal noises!) The groups really ranged anywhere from 20 at the smallest to upwards of 60 when we'd train college resident assistants. We certainly talked about different kinds of kids beyond just gay kids because that way it made it more personal (lets face it, even the biggest jock has been picked on at some point, right?) Our primary focus was certainly to raise awareness that even if they weren't out, there were most likely kids struggling with their sexual orientation, but also to get kids thinking about the actions of their words.
I completely agree about saying you're christian and practicing it being entirely different beasts.
Mike22685 wrote: "anywhere from 6th grade through adults"
I can't see getting through this excersise without busting into laughter. :-)
So this was done in small groups. How did schools determine who took part in the exercise?
I can't help but wonder, though, is this strictly for protecting gay or perceived gay kids or is it more of an encompassing bullying protection exercise ~ are all diferences talked about; economic, weight, etc?
PS Being Christian and claiming a Christian background are completely different. Many people believe they are born Catholic, but have never stepped foot into a church building.
Forgiven, I didn't meant to imply it was all Christian families...I put the quotes around it because I think many of those families that teach legitimate hatred of homosexuals might claim a "christian" background.
The exercise we most commonly did was a game called barnyard. You go around the circle and whisper the name of an animal in each person's ear (cow, pig, sheep, or rooster.) You want to have many cows, a few less pigs, a few less sheep, and only 1 rooster. You then have them close their eyes and start making their animal's noise and try to find other's making the same noise. When you debrief, the cows obviously talk about how easy it was to find someone else, whereas the pigs and sheep talk about how it was a bit harder but once they found someone similar to them they were so relieved, and the rooster talks about wondering why no one else was making their noise and if they were doing something wrong. Really its a phenomenal exercise to use for bullying as well, anywhere from 6th grade through adults (we've had social work grad students do it before, good times!!!) Anyways, we'd open dialogue about why it is that the gay kid, or even someone perceived to be gay (after all, tom boys or theater geek boys can be victims of homophobia) is often left out or made fun of on purpose when we all know what it feels like to be that rooster. Its REALLY powerful stuff :) Feel free to use it if anyone does a seminar on bullying.
Star2 I still don't understand the whole "force their lifestyle" argument works. Is it to be claimed that by their very existence in public that the gays are trying to convert heterosexuals? Or is it that by seeking to be free of persecution they are trying to force that conversion? This "indoctrination" of which you speak is geared towards tolerance of a lifestyle that is not often included in traditional discussions of family structure. How is it that you and the rest of your community can't distinguish tolerance from conversion? I tolerate the existence of Christians and am accepting towards them privately practicing their beliefs, but that certainly doesn't mean that I have any motivation to convert to Christianity. In the same vein, how is it then impossible to acknowledge that you can be tolerant of and respectful towards gays, their personhood and privacy, without risking conversion of yourself or your children to homosexuality?
Yes_I_am_a_Jew , I better understand now what drives you. I don't blame you for wanting to defend your family. It hurts when people attack your family members.
But an objective observer who views what is going on in our society would agree that what the 7 steps I mentioned is what the gay community is doing to make or force their lifestyle on the heterosexual community.
Your gay family members and those gays who post on CP may not be of the gay movement but that doesn't negate the fact that there are gay organizations that are pushing the gay lifestyle in the ways mentioned in those 7 steps.
yes, but isn't that true of many groups, that within that group there is a very vocal minority pushing an agenda that perhaps many don't necessarily agree with but in some ways would not mind seeing become a reality?
Let's see:
1. I am not gay. Many of my friends and family are and as such I fight fiercely to defend them against the ignorant and misinformed.
2. Am I biased? I suppose you could say that I am. Granted, I wasn't claiming that my opinions were infallible studies or proof of a vast conspiracy.
Yes_I_am_a_Jew , are you gay?
And you are not biased Yes_I_am_a_Jew?
Now that I got the previous post off my chest....
Mike22685 wrote: "provide resources"
What kind of resources are you talking about?
also: "but we'd do exercises to create conversation about what it feels like to be left out or picked on and would dispel myths"
What are these excersises? Rally style settings? Smaller group settings?
Mike22685 wrote: "Unfortunately, many of the aggressors were children raised in "Christian" homes who got messages that gays we disgusting and deserved to be attacked,"
I find this to be disingenuis. I realize Christians rigidly stick to homosexualaity is sin, but most Christian families do not and would not promote hate or the message to attack a gay person!
I grew up outside of Christianity in a place which we seem to have in common, RI, and I can tell you it was the families that did not hold to Christianity. It was the families that simply believed because of the natural biology that gay people were disgusting. I grew up in such an environment that I hated! I may not have agreed with homosexuality, but I can tell you how many times I managed to get into fist fights protecting someone!
PLease try not to vilianize Christian families, who as I know now, translate to their kids that it is ok to disgaree, but it is not ok to treat that person with anything less than respect!
Star2, for lack of a better word your "citation" of the gay agenda is RETARDED. As a preliminary matter, it really doesn't make sense to cite a highly biased source as authoritative. I'm quite certain that there is no independent peer review for anything coming out of family.org. I would like this to referring to the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion" to demonstrate the tenets of the vast Zionist Conspiracy.
So let's walk through these 7 aforementioned goals:
1. I think you're confusing tolerance with indoctrination. Granted to you all who are mired in dogma they may appear the same but showing that gay couples exist and that it's ok is a far cry from indoctrinating, which would be more along the lines of YOU ALL SHOULD BECOME GAY.
2. Or they could just be trying to raise awareness of the situation in the hope of actually bringing about some change. Anyway, don't you Christians take the same tactic when spreading the gospel to everyone and anyone within earshot?
3. Maybe they're talking about tragedies inflicted on gays because...they actually do happen? No one, regardless of race, creed, or religion should be physically abused on account of law abiding behavior and legally protected personal choices.
4. Again, a demonstration of the low intelligence level of people involved with making these conspiracy theories, considering that disenfranchised means deprived of the rights of citizenship (http://wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn?s=disenfranchised), gays are indeed disenfranchised. While the below average intelligence layperson will connect disenfranchisement solely with voting it actually applies to all rights connected to citizenship. Marriage is a fundamental right according to both the US and CA Supreme Courts and in CA that fundamental right applies regardless of the genders of the participants in the marriage.
5. Gays are normal and stable people. They hold down jobs, pay their taxes, obey the law, love their significant others & children and all those other things that "normal people" do.
6. The Christians can hold to their biblical beliefs all they want. The problem is that you're not confining that belief to yourselves. It has to be pushed on everyone else, with the expectation of adherence. This is closer to my definition of indoctrination. The gays just want to be able to do their own thing without outside interference or harassment; whereas the Christian community wants everyone to do things strictly according to their own moral code and injects itself into spheres uninvited and unwanted.
7. Lobbying costs money. Not everyone has the massively loaded church on its side.
I'll concede that there are certainly activists in the gay community who are more in line with the original conspiracy theory than my explanation but by and large the statements Star2 "cited" are rubbish and inapplicable to the gay community.
Thanks Muggleborn. I'm glad there's at least 1 Christian on here able to have a peaceful dialogue :)
Star, as I said earlier, each and every one of those things are done by Christians as well, so think through your arguments thoroughly before trying to slam someone else.
Forgiven, the program met with school staff and direct care providers (social workers, hospital staff, etc.) to basically provide resources on how they could make their schools safer. Unfortunately, many of the aggressors were children raised in "Christian" homes who got messages that gays we disgusting and deserved to be attacked, and so we'd go into schools and talk to the kids about thinking honestly about what it means to be gay. There was no "encouragement" to accept homosexuality, but we'd do exercises to create conversation about what it feels like to be left out or picked on and would dispel myths (all gay men want to hit on straight men) which helped ease a lot of the tension.
Mike22685,
>> one of whom had been shoved into a toilet and peed on, another who was thrown to the floor and had a bunch of football players jerk off on him calling him f-gg-t. There is no agenda there other than putting a stop to the horrific atrocities those kids were facing day to day <<
All good Christians will agree with you. That stuff has GOT to stop. Christians need to speak out against those hateful actions, but we are not going to compromise the Word of God to do it.
As to it not being a choice ... I actually agree with you there, but in the sense that it's not a choice like, "should I put milk or 2% in my coffee". I personally think it's a curse; i.e. a sin condition that each gay individual is not directly responsible for. If it's biological, keep in mind that sin is inherited, like predisposition to cancer, which also wouldn't exist without sin.
>> and you will stop at nothing, not even twisting the Bible, to try and prove a point <<
Only pro-gay people have been twisting the Bible, here. God is very clear on His stance against homosexual desire and behavior.
BTW, Mike, I'm not so homophobic that I can't say that I love you, and admittedly would probably react with anger (and potential violence) against someone committing a hate crime against a gay individual. But for the most part, I simply pray that gay individuals who are questioning their own condition don't despair, and actually find answers they are looking for, and love and support from those around them.
Mike22685 requested of Prophet to define the gay agenda. Prophet didn't answer so I will. (I had deleted this post earlier but decided to re-post it.)
The gay agenda is to turn America into another Sodom and Gommorah.
There are seven basic steps to the gay agenda. They are as follows:
1) Educate and encourage school children about homosexuality. Homosexuals have stated that to change a culture you have to get to the children. People know that the children of today will make up the governments of tomorrow. If the gays do their job right, then they are going to raise a generation of kids who don't believe the claims of the 'religious right' (homosexuality is wrong, etc.). The homosexual activists want to keep the Gospel of Jesus Christ out of the school and get homosexual indoctrination in.
2) "Talk about gays and gayness as loudly and as often as possible." The gays think that if they do this people will get tired of the issue and give them what they want.
3) "Portray gays as victims, not as aggressive challengers." The gays exploit tragedies against homosexuals to portray themselves as victims.
4) "Give homosexual protectors a just cause." The gays want to take advantage of America's innate sense of fairness to sway them into believing that homosexuals are disenfranchised.
5) "Make gays look good." They are trying to portray homosexuals as normal, stable people.
6) "Make the victimizers (faith based Christians) look bad." They are trying to get conservative Christians to look bad for holding to biblical beliefs. They get behind the liberal churches that say homosexual behavior is fine theologically.
7) "Get funds from corporate America." They are getting corporate America to side with their agenda.
An objective observer of what is going on in our country in regard to homosexuality will validate the above statements.
Source(s):
The above was taken from this website:
http://www.family.org/cforum/feature/a0027070.cfm
Mike22685 wrote: "work was focused on making schools a safe place for our youth"
How exactly does the program work? How does it make schools safe? What is done?
David,
Sorry. I forgot that this incident took place in the UK.
Mike,
And the gay rights groups also try to get Christians to shut up too. Again, it's the "We ain't doing anything..." plea. Sorry, I ain't falling for that. Satan used the same sort of argument with Eve. It's sad to see such simple people fall for it yet today.
"Apparently, you haven't read this article. A man was dismissed because of his religious beliefs. Isn't that breaking the "separation of church and state" rule?"
Uh, the UK doesn't exactly recognize the US Constitution.
Furthermore, it's an illogical premise. The actions of an individual do not operate to invalidate part of the constitution. That can only be done by both houses of Congress with a two-thirds majority. Had this occurred in the US, a judge would have had to determine if their had been a breach of contract (there is a "specific performance" issue) and if there had been a wrongful discharge - it could actually be both. Underlying this is how did the person get hired and how did he accept the position. Had the person said that his religious beliefs prohibit him from counseling interracial couple's, you would see this more clearly.
Prophet, these incidents aren't tied to gay groups having meetings. When I was in RI I worked for a gay youth advocacy center and we did a lot of work in schools. Or work was focused on making schools a safe place for our youth, one of whom had been shoved into a toilet and peed on, another who was thrown to the floor and had a bunch of football players jerk off on him calling him f-gg-t. There is no agenda there other than putting a stop to the horrific atrocities those kids were facing day to day, and people like yourself who tell everyone it is a choice only fuel the fire.
Star, its funny, every thing you said in that post is exactly what your friends on Christian post try to do for the "christian community." You try to make yourselves look like victims and pretend you're not the aggressors. You place blame on others and exploit issues and raise hell if the news media doesn't cover something to your liking. There is a vicious conservative agenda, and it is to make gays sit down and shut up because you simply don't like us, and you will stop at nothing, not even twisting the Bible, to try and prove a point.
mike,
But as I said earlier. If I were to counsel gay couples I would tell them to start by quit living in sin.
mike,
Believer said "For instance I know of several cases where counselors stated they would be very uncomfortable in counseling a client who sexually abused children and they were not forced to."
Why weren't they fired for discrimination? It's no different.
And as far as "agenda" goes. I see that there are lots of gay and pro-gay groups in our fine country. So please don't tell me that gays don't hold meetings. Sheesh. You really must think that we're ignorant. Again, it's just one of those lies "Don't worry about us...we're not doing anything. Really. Nothing to worry about us here." Just because you're not a "member" of one of these groups doesn't mean you don't hold the same view as they do.
By the way, making it illegal to call homosexuality a sin is just one very small step from saying a person can't refuse to counsel a homosexual on religious grounds.
And guarantee, when that day comes I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that you'll be dancing on the table, throwing it in our face, saying "I was waiting for this day!"
How do I know? Because gays "don't have an agenda" and "we're not trying to shut you up." LOL
Prophet, define the gay agenda. You speak as if we hold meetings. The man was dismissed because his religious beliefs jaded with the non-discrimination policy of the group, which I have no doubt he was aware of at the time he was hired. You like to blow things like this up into something more than they really are.
David,
Apparently, you haven't read this article. A man was dismissed because of his religious beliefs. Isn't that breaking the "separation of church and state" rule?
"Finding ways to discredit Christians, take away their right to freedom of religion, and shut them up. "
Again, that is disingenuous turnspeak ( http://www.tips-q.com/content/turnspeak ) and lacking any factual basis. Moreover, Christians are in the majority. Jews comprise about 2.5% of the US population; gays about 5%. Of course there are Jews who are gay and gays who are Christian but I digress.
There is absolutely no correlation between gay rights and this supposed loss of Christian rights, It is feigned outrage.
DavidHart,
You forgot a part.
8:00AM-5:00PM Finding ways to discredit Christians, take away their right to freedom of religion, and shut them up.
Mike,
Those "isolated" incidents are becoming frighteningly less "isolated". When are they no longer considered "isolated"? I think we've got past that point. Again, it's just the gay agenda trying to convince everyone that "nothing's going on. Really...we're not doing anything." Not a very good lie, but a good try nonetheless.
I am pretty much in agreement with believer. The issues that have not been explored are that this was tried in the UK; The employer was a charity and; The counselor entered into the organization's non-discrimination policy which was quite specific about GLBT issues. The purpose of an interview is not just to get a job but to fully understand the job that you are getting. Somehow that concept was lost. Moreover, the interviewer apparently allowed for this glaring oversight. Hopefully my TQM clients are more competent than this ;-)
mike22685, no it's not an attack on Christian values just another way to force Christians to violate those values. Plus, having been a counselor in both the military, secular, and Christian community I can tell you it is not unusual for a counselor to be allowed to not counsel in certain situations. For instance I know of several cases where counselors stated they would be very uncomfortable in counseling a client who sexually abused children and they were not forced to. Plus, if I were a partner in a same-sex relationship I would not want a counselor who had a problem with that simply because I would not trust them to give me or my partner good advice and in fact I would suspect they would do more to hurt our relationship than help it.
THE GAY AGENDA:
07:00 AM - High fiber breakfast; Coffee with artificial sweetener.
07:30 AM - Shower and shave
08:00 AM - Kiss work-at-home partner goodbye.
...
The so-called "gay agenda" is a dog whistle. It originally implied that gays were only interested in have sex with your children. It was nonsense in origin and it's nonsense today.
David Hart
http://www.tips-Q.com
"In other words ... pretty soon our beliefs will just be conveniently "trumped" by the legalized sentiment-of-the-day."
That is the nonsensical talking point du jour. Given the US Constitution, there is no correlation between civil rights and a reduction in religious freedom. The "Christian" language that was used in Loving v Virginia ("Almighty God created the races white, black, yellow, malay and red, and he placed them on separate continents ...") was wrong but could still be offered from the pulpit today. Indeed it is spoken by Christian Identify pastors.
And this story pertains to which city in which nation? Perspective generally is a good thing.
You love comparing the gay agenda (which, is pretty silly, there isn't a uniform agenda) to hitler, don't ya? Every time an isolated incident happens, in your mind its the fury of the gay agenda.
Prophet said: If I'm not mistaken that are plenty more non-Christian counselors than Christian. Why is this even an issue?
So true,-- are there not councilors who have no objection to same sex couples who can help. I think if you have no experience in an area, how can you have any idea what the person is going through. My children are adopted so I have no idea what it is like to give birth. How could I tell any woman how she should feel about that experience? I believe one reason the Lord allows trouble in our lives is so that we can be of use to the body of Christ when others go through similar or even the same troubles. Once we come out the other side we are living proof of God's love and care and an encouragement to others.
Mike,
I know I won't. Gay marriages aren't recognized in my state.....yet. But all it takes is the gay agenda's attack on Christianity to change that.
As far as your comment " This is not an attack on Christian values..."
Hilter said "This is not an attack on the world, we just want Czechoslavakia..." (paraphrased)
Prophet, then I can tell you you won't get many gay couples. Believer, have fun getting Mr. Ed into the office building. This is not an attack on Christian values, but sexual orientation non-discrimination laws are unfortunately necessary so that I can't get fired or refused housing just because of how I was born. There are plenty of venues to be a Christian counselor, and if your company has a non-discrimination policy that includes sexual orientation, then don't work for them. Simple as that. I wouldn't work for a school district that didn't have a sexual orientation non-discrimination policy, nor would I live in a state that didn't.
Another example of the homosexuals "non-agenda" and "we're not trying to shut up the Christian voice" rhetoric. As this shows, the gay activists are going to keep hacking away at Christianity until our religious freedoms are completely gone.
This article says "The law is in a confused state; in the case of Lillian Ladele, the Islington Registrar, the Court held that Christian belief must give way to the rights of same sex couples."
Who says they have to? If I'm not mistaken that are plenty more non-Christian counselors than Christian. Why is this even an issue?
Because the homosexual agenda is to completely quiet the true Christian voice. My wife and I are moving into a marriage counseling ministry at our church. I'd be more than happy to counsel gay people. It would be a really simple counseling session. I'd say "I counsel the Biblically. The first thing you need to do is quit living in sin. After that, come back and I'll counsel you some more."
It doesn't say what state this agency is located in, so if it is in a state that does not recognize same-sex marriages or unions would that mean counselors could be forced to counsel Wilbur Post if he finally dumped his wife and married Mr. Ed? After all that's as illegal as same-sex marriages and unions in states that don't allow it.
We've been seeing plenty of policies regarding discrimination based on sexual orientation and gender status evolving with a more liberal moral standard for years, now. I'm actually surprised that secularists haven't tried to re-invent religious discrimination laws to stipulate voidance in occurances where they conflict with discrimination laws.
In other words ... pretty soon our beliefs will just be conveniently "trumped" by the legalized sentiment-of-the-day.
Religious discrimination laws will be their next point of attack. And the Bill of Rights will NOT help us. Ultimately, only God and fervent prayer can help us.