CONCORD, N.H. – The first openly gay Episcopal bishop will offer a prayer at the Lincoln Memorial at an inaugural event for President-elect Barack Obama.
The selection of New Hampshire Episcopal Bishop Gene Robinson for Sunday's event follows weeks of criticism from gay-rights groups over Obama's decision to have the Rev. Rick Warren give the invocation at his Jan. 20 inauguration.
Warren backed the ban on same-sex marriage that passed in his home state of California on the November ballot.
Robinson said last month the choice of Warren was like a slap in the face. In an interview with the Concord Monitor, he said he doesn't believe Obama invited him in response to the Warren criticism but said his inclusion won't go unnoticed by the gay and lesbian community.
"It's important for any minority to see themselves represented in some way," Robinson told the newspaper for a story in Monday's editions. "Whether it be a racial minority, an ethnic minority, or in our case, a sexual minority. Just seeing someone like you up front matters."
Clark Stevens, a spokesman for the inaugural committee, said Robinson was invited because he had offered his advice to Obama during the campaign and because of his church work. When asked whether Robinson was included to calm the Warren complaints, he said Robinson is "an important figure in the religious community. We are excited that he will be involved."
Robinson, 61, said both Obama and Vice President-elect Joe Biden will attend the event, and Obama is expected to speak. As for himself, Robinson said he doesn't yet know what he'll say, but he knows he won't use a Bible.
"While that is a holy and sacred text to me, it is not for many Americans," Robinson said. "I will be careful not to be especially Christian in my prayer. This is a prayer for the whole nation."
Robinson said his prayer will be reflective of the times.
"I think these are sober and difficult times that we are facing," he said. "It won't be a happy, clappy prayer."
Robinson's 2003 consecration has divided the church in the United States and abroad. Last month, theological conservatives upset by liberal views of U.S. Episcopalians and Canadian Anglicans formed a rival North American province.
RSS
Hm.
That was MTG who was talking about pride, not me.
I was agreeing with you. Homosexuality and pride are a sin.
To what comment that I made did you agree?
I was agreeing with you. Homosexuality and pride are a sin.
Prophet, you agree with what?
Mike
I agree. So we know that both are a sin.
"But the truth remains. Homosexuality is a sin."
Yes, the truth remains. Pride is a sin.
But the truth remains. Homosexuality is a sin.
Sawnay, I've already said that and its clear you want to be made into a martyr. Sorry we have a difference of opinions on what scripture actually says, but do not call me a liar or pretend you know anything about my relationship with God. You need to humble yourself and realize that is not your place in this world.
Sawnay,
I put your email address in my address book. I'll email you tomorrow.
Mike once again you prove you have no light in you - meaning if you profess to be a Child of God then you are calling God and His word a LIE by saying - (Your words)'I never said I am not a sinner, but I said being gay is not a sin.'
I can show you a plethra of scriptures showing homosexuality SIN (as well as ALL sexual immorality) however I already see you hold little honor to God's word so there is only one of two things true here. Either God is a liar or YOU ARE in your declaration of being Born of God (born again) again I already realise this comment will be blasted by you saying how mean and hateful I am so let er rip!
I am aware of that.
We would be the majority of Americans who do, not necessarily you.
You used the word "we".
I do not count myself among that "we".
Would you care to explain? Morally, it is wrong to kill, but we make exceptions for self defense and war. That is moral relativism.
No.
You can be a moral relativist and a Christian, and most people do it. Morally, it is wrong to kill, but that is relative to times of war or to self defense, correct?
Apparently you're not sure because that was not the wording. I said I have a social view of morality which most certainly can be meshed with a spiritual view. I think things like yoga help keep us contemplate the spiritual working of God, and I do participate in yoga. I have several times said that I am not carnally minded, but I think you need to classify me as such because you need to think of me as less of a person. Please, try to have an honest conversation without lying.
And in another place you said "I think you can be a moral relativist and a Christian..."
The problem with your view is that God is not a moral relativist. So you can't be a moral relativist and a Christian.
You said a while back in another post something to the effect that you prefer the morals of man above the morals of God. I'm not sure of the exact wording but it was rather obvious.
Prophet, you're blatant lying will condemn you. I most certainly never, ever said I was carnally minded, that has always been your judgment of me because you purposely want to paint me in a negative color. You truly do put me down at every chance you get, and I pray that someday you will realize how pathetic of a Christian you are for relying on such tactics. Certainly, this is not what Jesus would do. I never said I am not a sinner, but I said being gay is not a sin. I fall short in plenty of other ways that I do ask God's guidance for. I am sick of you twisting my words and telling people I said things which I did not. You cannot say with an honest heart that you are doing God's will when you lie in such ways.
Prophet - there is hope yet! You have encouraged me big time and I thank you. I am not able to find your email addy so I will openly give mine if you ever want to fellowship ik-ministry@hotmail.com
Sawnay,
Amen. The things of the Spirit are foreign to the carnal.
Mike, we are not putting you down. You already admitted to being a carnally minded person. You know the scripture in your head, but it has not sunk into your spirit to understand the truth of it. And you can't even admit to the simplest of scriptures that is stating God's will for people's lives. You call it blaspheme. Can God blaspheme Himself?
If you were a sinner, and admitted that you do not believe in God or His scriptures I would probably treat you with a little more TLC. But you claim to not be a sinner. You claim to be a child of God. Then stop wanting to be treated like a sinner. If you are a child of God, then expect to corrected. God uses His Holy Spirit to convict. If that doesn't work, He usses other Christians (believe me, he's done that to me a few times). But if you claim to be a Christian, but live like a sinner, then you are luke-warm and God will vomit you out of His mouth.
I am just a normal man, which makes you....? Just because we disagree doesn't mean I don't understand the things of God. When you start talking that way, you do not love the sinner, you begin putting them down and placing yourself above them.
prophet - we must not forget that Mike is not going to understand this stuff since he is just a natural man. The Scriptures speak of these people very clearly.
1Co 2:9-16 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. (10) But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. (11) For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. (12) Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. (13) Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. (14) But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. (15) But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. (16) For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.
It is impossible for Mike to understand the things of God so we can not expect him to understand what we are talking about! I am not against Mike I truly hope one day him and all sinners will repent of their sin and become born again!
Homosexuality is an abomination - it is not my word it is God's - if they have a problem it is not with me it is with God!
Its YOUR place to know GOD'S will? That is some blasphemy if I ever heard it. Just because you memorize the Bible does not mean you know God's will.
It is my place to know God's will for people. It's right there in the Bible. "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." If that's not God's will, then you do not have the same Bible as I do.
But as I recall, you believe in man's beliefs rather than God's. And you also believe in moral relativism.
You don't know God's will for me, please stop pretending you do.
Mike you have trials because you are reaping what you have sown. Simple! You have rejected God's word and His plan for you and refused to adhere to His will.
Prophet, it is not for you or anyone else to claim they know God's will, and that being said...how dare any of you tell me I deny God's will to change people? One, I have now denied that multiple times, and two, you do not know of my trials, so don't pretend you do just because you have the Bible memorized. You are so far out of the realm of attempting to love another person. If you loved me, you would read my words with an open heart; rather you salivate at the next chance to twist my words and crucify me. Get a life and heart, please.
Mike it is simple - you and your sexually perverted friend needs to repent and become born again. Very simple You are not redeemed. However I hope oneday you do repent of that abomination of a lifestyle and accept Jesus as Lord so you wont bust Hell wide open!
"mtg, I find it odd you used that quote from CS Lewis and yet if I'm not mistaken you don't even believe in the bodily Resurrection of Jesus Christ or that Christ alone is the way a person can be saved and become a child of God?"
Correct, believer.
"Hey, mike/mtgburrell. Good to see you again. Homosexuality is a sin. Deal with it."
Good to see you again, too, Prophet. Mike (a homosexual) and I (a heterosexual) will leave it to you and the others to "deal with it." So many of you seem so interested in dealing with it that there's hardy room for a discouraging word from openminded Christians. We think you can handle the issue just fine without us (though we may peek in on occasion to see how you are faring). The topic seems to occupy an unproportional part of your time, and Mike and I are glad to see things as God has shown them to us.
Mike22685, said, "I was born with a disposition to love another man."
"Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God" (Jn 3:3).
And God can change a person's skin color, if that were a sin. But it's not. Your analogy is lacking. But you deny His power to change people. A sex addict is no different than a homosexual. Both were born that way. It's called genetic disposition. Both of those, God can change. Homosexuals aren't some special people that God just can't change. But it is true to a point...God can't change what doesn't want to be changed. And as long as homosexuals hang on to their sin, they cannot be changed.
Once again you resort to twisting my words! I said God changing me would be like him changing someone's skin color if they prayed hard enough. You twisting my words is a blatant form of lying. Do you even stop to think about your actions before you condemn me, because you are rapidly condeming yourself!
And we all know that you don't believe God is big enough to change a person. Just like it says in II Timothy 3, you have a form of godliness, but you deny it's power.
Homosexuality is a sin. It is a perversion of the love that God created.
a brother is not born loving his sister. I was born with a disposition to love another man. You are attempting to compare very different things just because you think they are both perverted and therefore they MUST be in the same category.
The same thing that's wrong with a brother feeling the same thing towards his sister. It's a perverted love.
Did you even read what I wrote about the love I have for my partner? Besides spewing your version of the Bible at me, tell me EXACTLY what you find perverted about a love so deep that I would spend the rest of my life at his bedside if that's what it meant.
Homosexual love is a perversion of the love that God created.
Sawnay, perhaps it would do you well to humble yourself. I believe everyone we meet teaches us something, why is it so absurd that I could teach you a thing or two about morals? My relationship with my partner is not a flesh driven lust. If tomorrow he was in an accident and was disfigured or disabled, I would stick by his side because our hearts are intertwined. That is not perverted love. Our love can not be boiled down to sexual intercourse, but rather an incredibly deep understanding of each other, a love, admiration, devotion. I certainly respect God's word, but not when people try to stretch it beyond what it actually says.
Hey, mike/mtgburrell. Good to see you again. Homosexuality is a sin. Deal with it.
mtg, I find it odd you used that quote from CS Lewis and yet if I'm not mistaken you don't even believe in the bodily Resurrection of Jesus Christ or that Christ alone is the way a person can be saved and become a child of God?
Besides, only people are Christ-centered. No "site" is Christ-centered. It only has Christians (all kinds of Christians) making posts on it.
Your bad, indeed. Such vitriol......
Mike22685 - You are going to try to teach me morals? LOLOLOL I seem to forget that christianity today is polluted by carnality and flesh driven foolishness so I am sorry if God's word is not important to you. I understand that you have no desire to hold God's will about your own flesh driven lusts. I forget that to you sexual immorality is a non issue - I guess I thought I was posting on a Christ Centered site. My bad!
This, my post from another site:
You know, when God wants to prune me, He put other people in my path. If I refuse to be pruned, He uses my relatives. If I still refuse to learn anything, He will use my own family! Even my wife! (How dare HE?!?) Perhaps God will need to give delight or prophet or believer a gay daughter or son (or grandchild) one day - just for pruning purposes.
Mike, I do realize that Saw is trying to help you. What he fails to see is that you don't actually need help - at least not HIS help. He is perhaps a fine person, but he is laboring under the "laws"as he learned them. It like what C. S. Lewis wrote, which goes something like: Most Christians just wade on the shoreline, barely getting their feet wet,whereas if they would just dive into the suft they would have the most wonderful swin (or ride or communion) with God.
All I can think to do here is cut&paste a comment I made on another column. I'll be right back.
Sawnay, I guess you'd have to train the sheep pretty well: Stomp once for "I do", Stomp twice for "I love you, but I can't!" Gays and pedophiles are different in that pedophiles cause irreparable harm to a child whereas gays love someone of the same sex. If you can't see that distinction then I seriously question your morals.
Mike22685 You said:Sawnay, a gay person being a bishop are a pedophile being a daycare worker are extremely different things. Open your heart up, its clear there is some hate brooding.
Why is it different Mike? Since Homosexuality is considered a sexual preference or orientation right? So next thing that will be accepted is pedophilia since they can claim the same thing! What next? People marrying sheep?
If they have a right to say there is a Gay Bishop then I have a right to say God is against such things and guess what - SO AM I! So if you don't like my comment I have three words for you. Get Over It! I don't hate the sinner I hate the sin. If I see someone ready to fall into the flames I will do whatever it takes to get him/her away from that flame. Homosexuality is that flame and as is all SIN.
Sawnay, a gay person being a bishop are a pedophile being a daycare worker are extremely different things. Open your heart up, its clear there is some hate brooding.
"To say there is a Gay Bishop is same as saying there is a Pedophile daycare worker."
If Sawnay really believes this, he/she needs to get out more. Try to meet more people. It will do him good.
To say there is a Gay Bishop is same as saying there is a Pedophile daycare worker. This is what is wrong with Christianity today. I don't hate this person I hate that Christianity because it has become acceptably to this lifestyle where it is plain in the Bible that the Lord God Almighty is against such lifestyles. This comment is not a personal attack it is a scriptural rebuke.
Believer,
Might be...wanted to keep an eye open. More than just theology there's something about the tone and desire to be seen as a teacher.
delight, are you thinking jh?
What shame!
delight, so who do you think he was in his former life?:)
delight, he does sound familiar but there are many who post on these sites with the same liberal theological view. Not many catholics in my area, but many cousins and aunts still in catholic church and I share some with them.
Believer,
Thank God for Randy and Larry...it sounds like you were well on your way to being catholisized. Do you have a ministry to catholics having such a background?
As a side note, have you read 'fifth seal's comments...sounds like a familiar voice of someone we spoke to earlier, same theology, same long posts...check it out. Let me know what you think.
delight, St. Ambrose Parochial School for 8 years and St. Andrew's High School Seminary for 9th and 10th grade to study for the priesthood. My sophomore year Bishop Fulton J. Sheen changed it to King's Preparatory School for catholic kids who were thinking of going into some type of work for the catholic church. Yes, I'm aware that the use of Rev. 3:20 that night was not totally theologically sound but Randy and Larry the two men who shared God's plan of salvation pointed that out as well and shared that it was similar to what God wanted to do in my life. But, the bottomline is I got God's point!
Believer,
Funny you should say that. John 3:16 was the first ever Scripture I looked up for myself. I was an avid professional basketball fan and had season tickets for the Utah Jazz (back in the Stockton/Malone days). I saw a televised game against the LA Lakers and saw a sign that read John 3:16, it was at the time God was calling me...I took it as a personal message.
No doubt Revelation 3:20 speaks clearly on the individual calling, although in context Jesus was knocking for the lukewarm church...it can still apply to those who are seeking to know Jesus as our personal Savior.
So, you are an ex-catholic as well...did you go to parochial (sp?) school?
delight, believe it or not John 3:16 didn't speak to me at all the first time I heard since as a catholic I knew Jesus died for everybody's sin. But when I heard for the first time Revelation 3:20 and I found out God wanted to have a personal relationship with me through His Son, Jesus Christ, now that spoke powerfully and led me to making my profession of faith in Christ that night.
mtg, plus, it's not an exclusive club but open to whosoever will!
mike22685 and mtg, John 1:12, "But to all who did receive Him, He gave them the right to be children of God, to those who believe in His name," To be a child of God one must repent of their sins and put their complete faith/trust in the person and finished work of Christ alone.
feet, you are truly one sick puppy.
I think it is the introspection first, when we start to wonder what it is that is causing us discomfort rather than to anesthesize these feelings or deny them, but instead to really look inside. This takes courage.
I think this is where Bryan may be as he has hung in during our discussions...at least so far.
During my time of painful introspection, I was involved in a new aged philosophy by way of a chiropractor who was deeply involved in what was called The Training, part of the Eckhardt movement in the early 80's. The philosophy taught that we are powerful, we are gods and we create our own reality; we chose our parents, we choose what happens to us...so on and so forth.
Seeking to alleviate the pain of living at that time, I fully embraced the philosophy and internalized it. Searching within myself, what I found was instead of being powerfully godlike and having all the answers, I was empty...destitute. That may have been God's drawing as He used the revelation that I had no answers but only death within. I'm grateful now for the insight God gave me at that time although it drove me to despair, Jesus was right there to show me Himself and I invited Him into my life. I was relieved that everything was not up to me, that I did not create my own unhappiness and that I could let go of the reins of control to Someone who loved me with a passion.
That was April 1, 1988 and since that day, I have not looked back and have the peace of God that surpasses all understanding throughout all circumstances and am finally content in all. And the best is yet to come! God is indeed good!
Thanks Aaron for your post and Blacksho for taking the time to post very thoughtful insights.
Delight,
I'm a third generation believer. For me, it wasn't a scripture, it was an urging in my spirit. There came a day when I knew I couldn't live my father's salvation, and that I had to personally make that decision for myself. I did a lot of introspection. I had experienced both sides of the fence. And I found that there was much greater peace and hope on God's side. Though many situations didn't change for me, or didn't change immediately, I had the knowledge that with God I could endure. Whereas without Him there was no hope.
The first verse that really got me thinking, and was the catalyst that must have lead to my salvation was:
Mat 7:13 - Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
There was something irresistible about it.
Bryan: Those in Antarctica who have never been taught of Jesus are not lost simply because they have never been taught. Otherwise, the Hebrews would all be lost as Jesus had not yet come! Job would be lost, as there was not even yet Law!
God has made Himself known by His Creation. Adam has imputed to us knowledge of Good and Evil. So a savage knows from early childhood that God exists, and he knows that God wants us to show Him love by doing what is right. The atheists call this inborn knowledge of the need to do Right "Natural Law".
By grace, Abraham's faith was credited to him as righteousness. By Grace, the savage is not condemned.
That all changes once we HAVE heard of Christ, though. When we have heard of Him, we must then confess Him as God and Saviour.
Do I understand exactly how this works? No. Do I think it's fair to be held to a higher standard than a savage? I don't know. What I DO know is that it is God's nature to be a just God, and if he tells me something I trust that He does it for love.
Prophet,
I agree completely...he seems to want to delve into aspects of Scripture early on that can lead to confusion as his interpretation of Romans 9 has shown.
I told him last month to start with John to understand who Jesus is and why He came. I would also like to see him read Romans chapter 6,7,& 8, as that is the Gospel in brief.
What were the scriptures that most interested you that caused you to look into claims of christ?
Anyone here care to share their first verses?
Delight,
Amen. That is why the message of salvation is so simple. It doesn't take a deep spiritually minded person to understand it. It's simple enough that even an unsaved person can understand it. And it was designed that way.
I would encourage Bryan to seek out scriptures that deal with salvation first. And leave the deeper stuff for later.
Prophet,
I myself came to Christ without reading the Bible first. It wasn't until after I received Him did I even begin to WANT to read what the Bible says. The only thing I knew of the Bible was what I learned in the catholic church that the only way to the Father was through Christ and the Lord lead me to pray about how that applied to me, less than a year later, He showed me.
I know He worked miraculously for me and He may work differently for all of us as individuals. My hope for Bryan is that he will find a similar Scripture that will get his attention and that he may earnestly pray about.
I understand your point about those who say they will consider reading the Bible before committing their lives to Christ, they do so without the Holy Spirit but does reading it first necessary preclude one from coming to Christ?
Romans 10:17 "So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God."
Isn't the reason we post here is to make available to those who will, to hear the word of God? To present dialog that will perhaps interest the seeker and who will search the Scripture for themselves?
"So shall My word be that goes forth from My mouth; It shall not return to Me void, But it shall accomplish what I please, And it shall prosper in the thing for which I sent it." (Isa 55:11)
How do we know that our mutual happiness is not all that matters? God tells us what his will is:
1. Gal 1:3-5 - Grace be to you and peace from God the Father, and from our Lord Jesus Christ, Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father: To whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
Our salvation for His glory.
2. 1Th 4:3 - For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication:
Our sanctification; to be made holy by utterly rejecting sinful living and by the power of the Holy Ghost in our bodies.
3. 1Th 5:18 - In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you.
Thankfulness for all things: tribulation and joy.
4. 1Pe 2:15 - For so is the will of God, that with well doing ye may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men:
Just as it says...
I hope this is helpful to you. As I said before, you are in my prayers.
Aaron
blacksho,
Amen. Our default destination is actually hell. That's where everyone is headed. God made a way to change that.
Delight,
Very well put.
Bryan,
This is not a subject that we can agree to disagree on, there is no anger from me regarding your resistance to the Gospel, only the hope that you will begin to consider that God is much bigger than you give Him credit for.
I think Prophet makes a good point...God doesn't exclude people rather His invitation in John 3:16 is all inclusive as in "whosoever". The inclusive god you speak about will provide Heaven for all...even evil people (Hitler, Manson,etc) and what kind of heaven would THAT make?
Without a change of heart, people will reject God. We are given free choice to decide if we love God enough for who He is to believe this life is not all there is, take up His Cause, His Cross and follow Him by denying ourselves in this temporal world. Rather than blame God, look at the consequences of what free choice offers; God wants us to love Him and have fellowship with Him and He will not force Himself on us.
One of the attributes of God is that He is Holy and cannot dwell with sinful man, that is why He sent Jesus Christ for whosoever would accept His Sacrifice and repent of sin could be made right with God and fellowship (as was such in the Garden of Eden) could be restored. The attribute of your god is unholiness and uncaring to offer "heaven' to all that turns out to be hellish. Reconsider your view of Who God is is skewed by your lack of understanding and limited view.
"So as long as we're both happy. That's all that matters."
Bryan, according to God, that's not what matters. What is the purpose of all of this? God is not a means, He is an end. The purpose of God isn't the happiness of man, it's the glory of God. We don't worship God in spirit and truth for our happiness; we do so because we love God with our whole heart, mind, soul and strength. If we are happy because of it, amen! Our happiness is a by-product of "loosing ourselves" for His sake. We cannot worship God in spirit and truth if we don't have the truth. And truth is not relative. Truth is not up to man (although Satan would have us think so). Man alone cannot conceive of truth, especially in his heart, for his heart is a wicked thing. Truth is found only in one place: the Word of God. And it is by this standard that we measure all things and ourselves. Your way of thinking is carnal, and without Jesus you will never see the spiritual.
Jhn 3:36 - He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
Jhn 3:18 - He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Knowing this, what do you think it means to be a true worshipper?
The "World" thinks that Heaven is the default destination for all when we die. That is, unless we do something REALLY bad, that is where God's GPS will direct us. Unfortunately, the opposite is true. "All have sinned; all fall short."
The GOOD NEWS is that "If you confess with your mouth and believe in your heart that Jesus is God", you are saved!
Bryan,
If I gave you and 10,000 other people a coupon for a free car, and you did not redeem that coupon to receive that new car, but everyone else did....would you say that I was excluding you?
Salvation is free. The only people excluded are those who choose not to. God gave us a free will, and He chooses not to cross that line. The choice for eternal life is ours to make, not His.
I pray for his understanding. But will he truly understand without the help of the Holy Spirit? I pray that God will reveal to Him, through His Spirit, the love and grace that He wants so much for Bryan to have. I just hope that Bryan isn't trying to understand the entirity and depths of the Bible without first giving himself to the One who will reveal it's truths.
I have known so many people who have said "I want to to know all about the Bible before I commit to Jesus". And, sad to say, it won't happen. Even I, after 20-some years of being a Christian do not know everything about the Bible.
But Delight,
The thing is we will never come to the same understanding. But according to my conscience, that is perfectly fine.
Even if I am not a homosexual, I don't think I would change my views on God and on the world. I simply cannot conceive a God that would be so inclusive as to think that only the people who would accept his Son would see him in the Kingdom of Heaven and not the others who know not of his son because they are far far away in Antartika and only know of his values. I simply cannot conceive a God that is so shallow as to care for the physical value of things and not the deepr emotional value. My god is inclusive and all loving. And the bible that I read agrees with that.
But feel no disappointment or anger Delight. It's okay for 2 people to have two totally different views on spirituality. So as long as we both live our lives to the fullest and be grateful for every bit of it. So as long as we're both happy. That's all that matters.
Prophet,
Yes, we are helping Bryan toward receiving Christ; he may not be there yet, but it's helpful that he is reading Scripture as before when he tried, he put it down as it was difficult for him to grasp.
If you have not accepted Jesus as your Lord and Savior, then you are not saved, and will not spend eternity in His glory and love.
Bryan,
If your homosexuality is only a small thing to you as you say, then it should be easy to lay on the altar in repentance to gain eternal life, should you decide to believe God rather than to re-interpret Scripture around sin. From an earlier post you said you were abstinent in an area of sexual involvement and I think that is very good.
"I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your reasonable service.
And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God." (Romans 12:1,2)
I find it very encouraging you are reading Scripture, please pray that Jesus will renew your mind through the power of the Holy Spirit, as you seek His truth.
Delight gets it right.
The world says:
A just God would never do that.
We are all children of God.
God loves everyone.
All will be saved by a loving God.
The Word of God speaks the truth. Abide in it and hide it in your heart.
Burr, the only subset I care to be in is the one written in His Book.
By the way 5th..It is the Revelation of Jesus Christ not of the revelation of John nor even revelations of end time events.
5th
Jesus taught in parables in order to paint a word picture to demonstrate a moral principal that most of the people in His audience did not hear nor understand. Perhaps they were too "open-minded" to understand. As far as the literal interpretation, I believe one must read scripture under the guidance of the Holy Spirit and read the literal sense when it makes literal sense, the Holy Spirit illuminates the truth of not only the parables to us but those more difficult Scriptures that read more than a literal sense. It is the Filling of the Holy Spirit and NOT Open-mindedness that give us understanding of God and His Purpose.
The only words in the Bible I see that promotes an idea of "open minded" is the Wide gate to destruction:
"Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.
"For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.
"Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves. Matthew 7:13-15 (I've included the last verse there for your benefit.)
I find people who hold open mindedness as the highest virtue are the most closed minded people around as they cannot accept the parameters of Absolute Truth.
I see little chance of you being martyered for your testimony for the reason you pat yourself so much on the back for your prideful open mindness; I imagine you will go along with anything as long as you can still be considered by the world as 'open minded'.
DelightntheLord,
Yes, my name is in reference to the Fifth Seal of the Revelation of St. John, not in hope of, rather willingness to die for faith.
You've said, "Try to read the Bible in the literal sense, then you will not have such problems with involving man's philosphy within it."
What if all the Bible isn't meant to be read literally? Isn't that why Jesus taught in parables? Because he knew that the narrowminded wouldn't understand, including some of his disciples? A literal interpretation isn't the only option, and certainly shouldn't be applied to the entire Bible. However, if that is your preferred method, I suppose your lack of openmindedness, reflection, and the knowledge comes from both is something you'll have to reconcile with God.
"Why can't you see yourself as a human first rather than judge everything by your sexual proclivity?"
That's exactly what I am doing delight, my sexual orientation is only a small part of me that doesn't define myself. But anyway I've decided not to discuss too much in this forum, though I'd try to offer my views on biblical scripture once in a while.. since it'd help me read more of the bible anyway.
Bryan,
Romans 9:7 speaks of the seed of Abraham, one Isaac who was a child of God's promise to the Jewsish race...God's chosen and Ishmael; (son of concubine Hagar) the father of Arab race:
"You shall call his name Ishmael, Because the LORD has heard your affliction. He shall be a wild man; His hand shall be against every man, And every man's hand against him. And he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren." Gen 16:11 A pretty good discription of the Arab race, read the whole story in Genesis.
Not all are God's children, but all children are God's creation.
"That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed."
Ishmael was not the son of promise as He was concieved due to unbelief from 100 year old Sarah who wished to help God fulfill the promise of a great nation to Abraham. Seems she had an eye on the biological clock and was impatient with God and arranged for Hagar her servant to concieve for her.
Since the Jews are in unbelief and did not accept their Messiah, God then made salvation available to the Gentiles (all the rest of us).
Those who accept the promise of Christ are children of God (see Scripture quoted earlier in this post), those who deny Christ are not children of God but ARE a part of God's creation.
And how this ties back for you regarding your homosexuality is beyond me, other than it holds too much importance to you and the filter by which you judge everything. Why can't you see yourself as a human first rather than judge everything by your sexual proclivity?
Bryan's interpreation of Roman 9:
This chapter talks more about God's love for all races instead of one "elite" race. Verse 8 was used to emphasize that Isrealis are no more of God's children than the world population is. That it is not the Isrealis ("natural children") that is God's child, but the entire world. ("children of the promise").
The author's sentiments were expressed quite resonately in verse 14. "What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all!"
The author tries to speak back towards those who think God unjust, who created them less wealthy than others, who created them of an inferior race. In essence, he used the clay as an example - it doesn't matter if it were for noble purposes or for common use, it is the same clay.
We were all created equal, whether or not he created us to be men, women, black, white, heterosexual, homosexual, muslims, christians, we are still his children.
Mike wrote: "Lip, we're not all God's children if we don't believe in Jesus? I don't remember that qualification in the Bible..."
Amen!
Lipo wrote: "Mike, we are indeed all God's creation however to be a child of God we must born again."
Does Lipo realize what sub-set of Christians he lives among? He thinks that just because he and his friends think this way that this is ALL of Christianity. How ignorant. (Their ignorance would noy be so bad, except that they cause so much hurt and harm with their exclusivist views.)
Mike, we are indeed all God's creation however to be a child of God we must born again. The Promise (The Christ).
Romans 9:8
In other words, it is not the natural children who are God's children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham's offspring.
Many want to claim to be God's children and yet those will be turned away.
We all, including me really need to better understand God's righteousness and His holiness.
Lip, we're not all God's children if we don't believe in Jesus? I don't remember that qualification in the Bible...
Bryan90 wrote:
1. We are all God's children. Jesus saying that he is God's son does not make him a hypocrite.
2. Jesus was like any other main prophets in other religions, for example Muhammed. Both had a close relationship with God and was asked by God to preach to the people in their region, to save them.
3. Jesus was the people's road to salvation, because indeed his values (God's values) would help make human beings happier people.
1) Bryan, clearly we are not all God's children only those who beleive in the promise (Jesus).
2) The other prophets glorified themselves. Jesus did not glorify Himself.
3) It's not about happiness it is rather a matter of holiness.
I hope you will read the Gospel of John and I pray the Holy Spirit will move upon you and you will by faith believe and repent unto salvation.
God Bless you
believer
what does being on the top or bottom have to be with love, kindness personal integrity, faithfulness, self-control . peace. here again you are talking sexual preference. but what is the connection with that and having or not having a heart for god.
.
what scriptures say anything that resembles that. it really makes no sense?
again i ask, how does top or bottom preference come against the fruit of the spirit?
Online: Amen! And great point. The heart that God creates is the heart that seeks obedience to God. Yes!
Bryan90, (A: My very own interpretation.P Guided by my current conscience and integrity. Whether or not, ordained by God, I dare not say.)
Are you willing to trust your own subjective heart which scripture says is (deceitful above all things-Jeremiah 17:9)? Good news: God offers you a new one . . .
A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them (Ezekiel 36:26).
WHEN . . .
And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart (Jeremiah 29:13).
Bryan,
Please consider the following:
Luk 5:32 'I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners, to repentance."
2Peter 3:9 "The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance."
True repentance and not the label of 'Christian' gets one to Heaven. God is Holy and cannot dwell with sin, that is why He sent Jesus, to be a way to reconcile God and man. We need to repent of sin to enter into relationship with God.
Are YOU willing to repent or would you rather continue to listen to the doctrines of man and demons and re-interpret your way out of having to repent of your lifestyle?
Bryan,
You've been quite clear on your values, but they are not biblical values:
1) There is a distinction between God's creation and God's chilren, please read past posts on this thread + Believers 2:51pm post.
2) Jesus wasn't just another Prophet, the other "prophets" are occupying their graves...Jesus rose from the dead and it is historical fact He was not found where they buried Him.
3) Salvation is not holding certain values but a literal transformation from death to life through belief in Jesus Christ the Word.
The iterpretation you are receiving from your inner guru is deceiving you. Since you won't bother to read and know the bible what you are interpreting is diametrically opposed to Scripture and the Person of Jesus Christ.
2Corinthians 11:14 "And no wonder! For Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light."
Galatians 1:1-6 "I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel,
which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed."
Hell is separation from God and goodness for an eternity, don't be so glib...you want to thirst with the likes of Hitler and the Marque de Sade?
Bryan wrote: "perhaps God is someone who would exclude all but Christians."
God is not a God of exclusion, Bryan, but a God that wishes all would be conformed to His Son and be called followers of Christ; Christians. He wishes everyone to be included. We simply have to decide whether to be included.
I am reminded of Israel during the end of the book of Judges, where "...every man did that which was right in his own eyes." Brian, you are attempting to throw out God's doctrine because you 'felt' that he gave you the key to 'reconciling all religions.' That is not how God works. He is unchanging and cannot lie. This reconciliation you are hoping for is not Biblical; the Bible will tell you this, and it will be substantiated by 2000 years of history of the Body of Christ cleaving to His core, unchanging doctrines. The Christ who is the head of the Church and is the God of the Bible is the foundation of truth, and the context of life itself. You cannot add to that or take away from this. What you are doing is called eisegesis, which means you are coming to the holy Scriptures with your own ideas of what they should say and then reading that into them. My friend, the God-breathed scriptures are powerful enough to change the wicked hearts of men, and you cannot come to them with the hope that they will say what you want them to say. It is because you don't know God personally that you want to have this wonderful idea of reconciliation in mind. I recommend that you look into the God's holiness. This is His attribute of primacy which permeates every single aspect of his nature and personality. Studying the holiness of God will bring a man to his knees, literally, and cause him to tremble at the foot of the cross. As long as it is done with fervent prayer and humility. You presumptions about God and Scripture and Hell are heartbreaking. You are trying to do what is right in your own eyes, which is insane. Following your idea of being in hell and being kept warm by your integrity and conscience, this is one of the most naive things I think I have ever read in the CP. In hell, the worm dieth not. After having seen Jesus Christ in His glory, after having that image of Him seared into your very soul, and after Him judging you for your sin, there will be no comfort. You will have to live in eternity knowing what your choice was: Brian's will over God's. That, I believe, would be pain unquenched, like a worm digging at your insides for ever.
You are in my prayers, young man.
Bryan90: It sounds to me as if you follow a Universalist philosophy. Are you familiar at all with that religion?
bryan, with regards to your belief that all are a child of God. John !:12, "But as many as received Him(Jesus Christ), to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name," Only when a person who has a genuine conversion experience through Christ alone can they become a child of God.
"but there must be something to reconcile for there to be reconcilation."
Perhaps you're right, perhaps God is someone who would exclude all but Christians. Perhaps God would send the Muslims and Jews and Bhudists to hell even if they lived a happy and good life. Perhaps God does have laws that doesn't make sense (at least to me) when looking at his other creations.
But if that is the case, then I do not view him as God, and if I fail to challenge his views, then I shall burn in hell with the others who have good hearts but just decided to follow a different religion with the same values.
And together in hell, our conscience and integrity shall keep us warm .
Delight,
But my values have always been consistent. Perhaps I am not clear enough.
1. We are all God's children. Jesus saying that he is God's son does not make him a hypocrite.
2. Jesus was like any other main prophets in other religions, for example Muhammed. Both had a close relationship with God and was asked by God to preach to the people in their region, to save them.
3. Jesus was the people's road to salvation, because indeed his values (God's values) would help make human beings happier people.
This entire interpretation came forth when I asked God for help in reconciling the bible with other religiouns.
Bryan wrote: "the God that I know reconciles with the God..."
You are right, God is about reconcilation, but there must be something to reconcile for there to be reconcilation.
feet, you're right and the fruit of same-sex couples either marrying or engaging in sexual intimacy is the fruit of rebellion and lack of the fruit of sel-control for as long as they continue to violate God's original and only design for both marriage and sexual intimacy.
Bryan,
Then if agreeing that Jesus said His Father and He are one; stating that, He is clearly saying He is God's Son....what's with the nonsense of;
"First of all I do not think that Jesus was literally the "son" of God,..." (wgich you posted earlier)
You see, this is where it gets very tedious. I understand you are "bored" and want to post to "express" yourself but don't try to yank our chains for your amusment. People will stop answering your posts and then where will you be?
*sigh*
feet, passive is also a physical state. You can be active, or you can be passive.
Brothers and sisters, if you do not wish to read a slight vulgarity, stop reading now.
Feet: The "effeminate" is a polite term for the bottom, and the defiler is the top. The Greek leaves NO room for doubt.
If a poet says that: "My love is fire." Is he lying?
Can one be so sure that Jesus had not metaphorical intentions in his words, when he said, "I am God!" But then he is God, we just have a different view of what God is.
"Bryan,
You have no desire to know the God of the Bible as the God you should know, do you? Just the god you want to know? Even if you're wrong?"
Not really, the God that I know reconciles with the God I see from the bible. It is the God that the currenty catholic church believe in that I cannot follow. As I have said, if the God that the church believes in is in fact God as it is, then I shall dwell in hell in peace rather than suffer in heaven from my guilt of watching all the muslims, jews, and homosexuals burn.
"Do you not believe Jesus words when He says literally; " I and My Father are one." John 10:30.
Is Jesus then a liar...with no purity of heart?"
I interpreted this before on this post. Delight, the heart (conscience, integrity) is God, it is where God planted his seed. So when Jesus said that he and God are one, he was in fact right.
again.......passive is a conditional state of being, except in extreme cases when it requires psychotherapy, because it is symptomatic of depression and anxiety. but then we are talking about disease.
disease is not sin. sin involves free will.
b
(Have you ever read Mere Christianity by C.S Lewis?)
Its a great read . . .
Bryan90: "Must it really be all black and white? So if he is not God's son he is a lunatic?"
Yes, you are correct. Jesus said He is God. Either He IS God, or He isn't.
If He ISN'T, then He is either a liar or crazy. I can say that I am Barack Obama. As logins here are anonymous, I just might be. But if I'm not-
I'm either lying, or, if I really believe that I am the President-elect, I'm nuts.
Have you ever read Mere Christianity by C.S Lewis?
Bryan,
This is getting tedious, correcting your unbiblical ideas: Jesus did not sacrifice Himself for God, rather He sacrificed Himself for the sin of mankind; which only He could do being God in the flesh and living a sinless life.
The theory of evolution does indeed lessen (cheapen) the work of Creator because evolution supposedly takes place without God. Are you then a Dieist, one who believes God wound up the creation and left it to itself to morph into something different without His hand in it?
Sorry to disappoint, it really is black or white, either one believes or one doesn't. Try to read the Bible in the literal sense, then you will not have such problems with involving man's philosphy within it.
feet: I believe I said that the term "sometimes translated effeminate" is better translated "passive partner in a homosexual relationship". This site will not support copy and paste of the Greek words or I would provide them.
I'd rather not write the crude modern terms for the two Greek words used, but I think you probably know them already.
Bryan,
You have no desire to know the God of the Bible as the God you should know, do you? Just the god you want to know? Even if you're wrong?
Bryan...pray "with the same purity of heart..."
Here you are again putting the onus on man and not God. Making man's heart the arbiter of salvation. There is no God in your theology...only man's point of view.
Do you not believe Jesus words when He says literally; " I and My Father are one." John 10:30.
Is Jesus then a liar...with no purity of heart?
You may want to reconsider your statement (one you have made a few times) "I rather dwell in hell." Be careful what you wish for.
"Jesus said He is God. He is either God, or he is a lunatic on par with a man who insists he is a poached egg, or he is a liar, the very Devil of Hell!"
Must it really be all black and white? So if he is not God's son he is a lunatic? Absurd.
He was a man who was willing to sacrifice his life for God. He was the "only son that God sacrificed". (in the Christian realm that is.) He devoted his life, let go of his personal desires, to reflect God's values. He says that he is "God", because he no longer represents a man but God's values. He is no lunatic, he was indeed a savior to humanity. Stripping him of his divinity does not make him less noble.
Some has tried to defend creationism when it was under the attack of evolutionism. But the thing is evolutionism doesn't make God less of a creator! It reconciles, not contradicts.
And perhaps one day, some would also have to defend Jesus's divinity when it comes into question. But the trick is, these people who plan to derrogate Jesus by proving his mortality, let them win not! Whether or not Jesus was a man or God's son, it does not change what he did. God has always valued deeper things - the soul, the heart, the emotions - and not just the body or the name.
Online,
Q: How did you come to these conclusions?
A: My very own interpretation. :P Guided by my current conscience and integrity. Whether or not, ordained by God, I dare not say.
How very exclusive for Jesus to speak of a "narrow" gate and for Paul to speak of running a race to be qualified. Christianity is not all inclusive but for those who are willing to crucify the flesh, bear a cross and follow Him. Not many willing to do this. Everyone wants "heaven" but few wish to sacrifice their comfort here on earth to inherit heaven on God's terms. Christianity is not for sissies.
With a name like "fifth Seal" perhaps referring to the breaking of the fifth seal in the book of Revelation; do you expect to be martyered for your testimony?
From your words here, I see your testimony to be very inclusive and world-friendly and certainly not something to die for.
blacksho
feet: You are absolutely wrong in you interpretation of 1 Cor 6:9. The Greek term sometimes translated "effeminate" is most assuredly rendered as "passive homosexual partner" in modern English, and that term translated "defilers of themselves" is better translated as the dominant partner in a homosexual relationship.
what does effeminate have to do with being homosexuality. homosexuality is about being attracted to the same sex.
effeminate is a manner of expression.
please explain how have a manner of expression comes against the 2nd commandment.
Online,
Matthew 23 has EVERYTHING to do with the conversation! Because you speak as though YOUR interpretation is the only correct one, YOUR beliefs are the only correct one, and the limited Scriptures YOU read (deemed the only spcriptures by catholic bishops- i.e. men) are the only ones from which we can draw God's word. Maybe God delivers messages outside of the Scriptures. Who are YOU to say what God meant or what God wanted? Are YOU God? Who are YOU to limit his power? Since when did the Almighty bow to his creation? I believe that God still speaks to us today. The Bible is only a fraction of the communication we have with God. In biblical times, marriage was something between two people of the same race and opposite sexes. Then as we grew, our understanding of Scripture grew... and suddenly slavery was no longer acceptable, it was ok for two people of different races to marry.... Now, we're growing again, and our understanding of Scripture is growing as well. Now, it's understandable that two people of the same sex and of different races could share a loving monogamous relationship.
And to those that continue with the ridiculous argument that some are picking and choosing the parts of the Bible they want to believe or practice, aren't you doing the same? You preach for us to follow ALL of God's laws, etc. Yet, I strongly doubt... no I KNOW with all certainty that YOU do not, nor can you, obey and observe all 600+ laws of the Old Testament... not to mention those of the New Testament. Do all women here cover their heads in church? The NT says you should! Do all here refrain from eating pork or doing work on Saturday? The OT says you should! It's funny how suddenly WE are the pickers and choosers. Hmmm... How's that?
Online, let me show you how the text is relevant, since you're having trouble...
Woe to YOU, you hypocrite! You do all you can to exclude people from heaven. You yourselves do not enter because your too busy critizing those who are trying to.
Woe to you, so concerned with making everyone Christian, and when he becomes one, you make him forget all about the most important reason for becoming one.
Woe to you, you observe all the little rules, but you have neglected the more important matters of the law- justice, mercy, and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter without neglecting the former.
You blind guides! You miss the forest for the trees.
Does that help, Online? At least from my standpoint it seems VERY RELEVANT to what some people are saying here.
Bryan90: "First of all I do not think that Jesus was literally the "son" of God,..."
Well, that is primary Christian doctrine. Jesus SAID he was the Son of God, and He said He WAS God. So, you see,
He doesn't leave you that option of "He was a good teacher", or that "he represents the values God wishes to teach".
Jesus said He is God. He is either God, or he is a lunatic on par with a man who insists he is a poached egg, or he is a liar, the very Devil of Hell!
So, you see, you'll have to excuse us when we correct your theology. The Catholics and Protestants on here may argue about Transubstantiation, the Charismatics and Evangelicals may argue about Gifts of the Spirit but the one thing we ALL are willing to be crucified for beleiving is that Jesus id the Christ, the Son of the Living God. He is LOGOS, present at the beginning, through him all things were made. He is the second member of the Trinity, the glorious Mystery of the Godhead.
Jesus is God.
feet: You are absolutely wrong in you interpretation of 1 Cor 6:9. The Greek term sometimes translated "effeminate" is most assuredly rendered as "passive homosexual partner" in modern English, and that term translated "defilers of themselves" is better translated as the dominant partner in a homosexual relationship. The Greek grammar is clear on this. This should be no surprise, as homosexual behavior was common and accepted in ancient Greek society. When something is common, languages develop specific terms to describe them, and NT Greek was no exception.
Paul said exactly what he meant, and meant exactly what he said. The common statement that "there was no word for homosexual" is a revisionist lie.
Remember, though, that all who call on the name of the Lord and accept Him as personal Saviour are saved! The translation of THAT phrase is also not in doubt!
I had just finished reading through the article and comments when a few particular scripture came to mind:
Luke 18:7, 8 - "And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them? I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?"
The parable of the unjust judge gives us an excellent illustration of those who "cry day and night" unto God. You who do so are the faithful elect who God will avenge after He takes you up from the earth. What comfort that brings! But what a fearsome verse that must be for those who pick and choose their own religion. Or for those who walk a broad path. Yet I suppose that they would be unafraid because their willful disobedience has wrought a spiritual blindness. I know that the faithful elect are those who have entered in at the strait gate:
Matthew 7:13-14 - "Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it."
It seems that those who want to pick and choose what is doctrine and what is not are trying their best to widen the path. Well, the path was never meant to be wide, all-inclusive, socially acceptable, etc... (This really puts a leash on ecumenism, doesn't it?) Since the Bible teaches that only God's elect are walking the narrow path, wouldn't you want to do diligence in making sure you were on it? I know I sure did when I was saved two years ago. I started reading the Bible, believing it, and God blessed me with a little discernment, and I learned through His Word to come to Him in reverence; in fear and trembling. It is by the grace of God that I can look at some of the "arguments" in here and know for certain who are the sheep and who are the goats. It is your "arguments" that reveal which path you have chosen, and therefore whether or not you are of God's elect, crying unto Him night and day. Repent while you can! He could be returning to us this minute...
Yes, please answer the question.
Bryan90,
Q: How did you come to these conclusions?
lipoftruth,
On the contrary, I used to be the kind of guy who would want the boardgame to have the fairest and most absolute rules. And very often, due to that, I end up ruining the game for everybody.
Now, I learn that the rules don't really matter, all that matters is that we have fun playing it.
Kind of like life, I used to believe that there has to be an absolute truth, and absolute law. And now I just realize that all God wants is for us to be happy!!
believer
i have no fruit stand
"you will know them by their fruit" are the words of christ.
believe
how is it that we who see a" poor reflection", "thru a glass darkly", and "in part", would even consider that we would know the mind of god.
for that matter, well do we know the thoughts of those we live with daily?
does isaiah make any qualifications," you will know my mind thru your understanding of scripture."
you are confusing the "mind of god" with the" spirit of the father and son." scripture points to and shows us thru the grace of the holy spirit, what is of the spirit of god.
feet, as I stated on another site, we can know the mind of God as much as He allows us through His Word and in His Word He very clearly states His original and only design for both marriage and sexual intimacy and all your rationalizing and babbling on about your fruit stand will not change that.
bryan90, I bet when you play boardgames you make up the rules as you go along.
We don't make the rules. Making up rules as you go in the game of life is called idolatry. God is soverign and Just and without the blood of Jesus Christ as a covering we will all be subject to His wrath.
Bryan90,
Thanks for sharing a little about what you truly believe . . . Q: How did you come to these conclusions?
Online,
If you are yet to be familiar with the way I interpret the bible and the understanding I have with God, you'd start cringing upon my words like many have here. For that I beforehand apologize.
"Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."
First of all I do not think that Jesus was literally the "son" of God, though he is metaphorically, a child of God just like any of us. It is just that he decided to devote his life to preaching God's values, a devotion that many of us today cannot perform.
Jesus was someone who was preaching God's values which at that time wasn't very much accepted by general society. And through his devotion, he no longer represents himself as the son of Marry, since he has given up his worldly desire. He now represents the value in which God wishes him to preach. "I am the truth, I am the way, only through me, shall you reach God." Only through God's values, can you reach God. Not through rituals, for Jesus wasn't much of a ritualistic person was he; not through killing in his name unlike the crusaders; but through his values.
Many would deem what I say as blasphemy, more would suggest that I am twisting it to say whatever I want it to say. But more and more I realize that it is only through such way of reading God's words, can I reconcile scripture with creation - homosexuals, people of colour, other religion, women, etc.
the Fifth Seal,
That chapter that you posted has nothing to do with the topic at hand . . . how about staying on course and lets try to deal with one topic at a time?
Bryan90,
Believer shared with you John 14: which says, Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
What do you think about that verse? What do you think about the following?
Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved (Acts 4:12).
For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ (1 Corinthians 3:11)
I quote again, from the mouth of Christ (not from the mouth of Paul, or an Old Testament teacher, but Christ)
Matthew 23:13-24
Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the kingdom of heaven in men's faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to.
Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as you are.
Woe to you, blind guides! You say, 'If anyone swears by the temple it means nothing; but if anyone swears by the gold of the temple, he is bound by his oath. You blind fools! Which is greater: the gold, or the temple that makes the gold sacred? You also say, 'If anyone swears by the altar, it means nothing; but if anyone swears by the gift on it, he is bound by his oath.' You blind men! Which is greater: the gift, or the altar that makes the gift sacred? Therefore, he who swears by the altar swears by it and by everything on it. And he who swears by the temple swears by it and by the one who dwells in it. And he who swears by heaven swears by God's throne and by the one who sits on it.
Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices- mint, dill and cummin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law- justice, mercy, and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter without neglecting the former. You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel.
Sure, all Scripture is God's word, but who decided what was Scripture and what wasn't? What about all the other texts the Catholic bishops who compiled today's Bible felt were against "their" beliefs? What of those Scriptures? Would they not be of God? Just because the Christians who read them or wrote them weren't the powerful, does that make them less sacred, less useful? Let's get educated before we start excluding any understandings that don't fit into our tight little boxes of what we understand.
believer
and as i have said before believing homosexual marriages are full of the fruit of the spirit in the same way that believing heterosexual marriages are........................which means they are full of love.
how can something that is not of christ, be full of the spirit that is of christ?
remember jesus's words "you will recognize them by their fruit"
which is not in accordance to a certain biological design!!!!!!!!
nor in accordance to gender identification!!!!!!!!!!!
believer
where is there any scripture that denotes that god has a design about gender identification.
my understanding is that there is only one "design", only one "standard", and that is .......................LOVE. LOVE that is god.
believer
feet, the fruit of rebellion in that they are willfully violating God's one and only original design for sexual intimacy and/or marriage.
to assume that you know the design of god , means you are crediting yourself with knowing the mind of god. this i have already said is necessary to believe that homosexuality is a sin.
and to cling to the understanding that god has created a law about design, which we are now under and are to be led by, denies all of paul's teachings about the new covenant. that is because this understanding is of the old covenant(deut. 28). a covenant that hebrews8 says, because god has called it old, it will become obsolete and soon pass away.
ray, it's the same bogus argument rationalizers use to excuse a variety of sins, as long as no one gets hurt and it's two consenting people it's all good. The only problem is all sin is what Christ suffered and died on the Cross for to include those sins that don't hurt any one the only problem is all sin offends/hurts God and God hates all sin. By the way I didn't need to go to the site to know that so I didn't.
Interested readers can visit www.GaysAndSlaves.com to see why the Biblical condemnation of homosexual practice does not apply today. Note especially the no-harm test.
feet, the fruit of rebellion in that they are willfully violating God's one and only original design for sexual intimacy and/or marriage.
bryan, Christ Himself said I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life and no one can come unto the Father but through Me. Case closed there are no other options, it's Christ alone, not Christ and or Christ or but only Christ alone. Scripture also teaches that only a person who has repented of their sins by turning from their sins and turning to God by putting their complete faith/trust in the person and finished work of Christ alone can be called a child of God.
daniel
consider the whole teaching.
A Tree and Its Fruit
matt7: 15"Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.
21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'
i have yet to hear anyone explain what fruit homosexuality and homosexual marriage produces that comes against the fruit of the spirit and the spirit of christ?
daniel
consider the whole teaching.
A Tree and Its Fruit
matt7: 15"Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.
21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'
i have yet to hear anyone explain what fruit homosexuality and homosexual marriage produces that comes against the fruit of the spirit and the spirit of christ?
daniel
consider the whole teaching.
A Tree and Its Fruit
matt7: 15"Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.
21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'
i have yet to hear anyone explain what fruit homosexuality and homosexual marriage produces that comes against the fruit of the spirit and the spirit of christ?
daniel
consider the whole teaching.
A Tree and Its Fruit
matt7: 15"Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.
21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'
i have yet to hear anyone explain what fruit homosexuality and homosexual marriage produces that comes against the fruit of the spirit and the spirit of christ?
"It doesn't matter who this man prays FOR but WHO he PRAYS TO."
Absolutely horrifying! If one day I would have to confront such a God. I'd ask him: "So if two men pray for the same safety of their family and friends, with the same purity of heart, but one a Christian who believes in the bible, the other a Muslim who believes in the Quran, one shall go to Heaven, the other Hell?"
If such a God exists, then I am no longer afraid. For again, I rather dwell in hell with the peace of mind than to be in Heaven, suffering from the torment of my conscience. But then again, my faith tells me that such a God does not. For God so love the world.
Fifth Seal "Whether people are Christians or not, they are still God's children..."
There is a distinction between God's CREATION and God's CHILDREN:
"For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus."
"In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God..."
**It doesn't matter who this man prays FOR but WHO he PRAYS TO.
There is only one God Who answers prayer and it looks like He has been denied by the leader of the prayer.**
Also, Children of God do know the Mind of Christ:
"For "who has known the mind of the LORD that he may instruct Him?" But we have the mind of Christ." 2 Cor 2:16.
Maybe he'll pray that the Lord delivers him from his sinful lifestyle.
"God's children, I would call them. "
Mat 7:21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven {will enter.} "Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.
Please note the word 'lawlessness' is Strongs Greek 485 which is defined as "disobedience, contradiction, strife" which really does sum up the posts of the pro-gay camp on this site now doesn't it?
reedit
homosexuals compared to heterosexuals have never been found wanting in any sector of society. they are NOT less a friend , father attorney, counselor, adminstrator , teacher , neighbor, brother, pastor, etc.
blacksho
Actually, Paul said "Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders"
1 Cor 6:9.
Leviticus uses the term "abomination".
But we go back to my question of earlier: If God does not tell us which of his commands to live by, then does man?
Which man?
mtgburrell, Barack Obama, Rick Warren?
the translation in 1tim and 1cor" defilers of themselves with mankind" was in the late 19th century, transposed with the word "homosexual". the transposition was done without any written explanation. it was done in england where there is no seperation of church and state, and where there was a king henry instituted law that punished acts of sodomy with hanging. a law that remained on the books for 400 years. this cultural influence came across the atlantic and the transposition was repeated in this country.
that transposition has remained untested and unchallenged for 100 years. the various revolutions in the 1970's, including the one that began at" stonewall" and culminatd with the supreme court decision to legalize homosexual acts, demanded that this transposition be tested.
the test is whether the essence of homosexuality is defiling to human kind and to the spirit of christ . 1 thess 5:20" test everything, keep the good."
and to date according to witness of the spirit it is not. homosexual bonding is motivated by mutual love, devotion, affection, respect, trust for a shared committed life together, the same as with heterosexuals. believing homosexual marriages are full of the fruit of the spirit in the same way as believing heterosexual marriages
homosexuals compared to heterosexuals have never been found wanting in any sector of society. they are less a friend , father attorney, counselor, adminstrator , teacher , neighbor, brother, pastor, etc.
and in regard to lev, not all the prohibitions of themselves were sins.
"So what do you call someone who does not believe that the Scriptures are Gods inspired Word? I think the bible calls them unbelievers . . ."
God's children, I would call them. The bible is not the only way to establish a relationship with God you know? Other than holy books such as the bible, the quran, the torah, etc, human beings can also establish their relationship with God simply by listening to their conscience and learning from the experiences that God has arranged for them to encounter.
Is it logical for an almighty God to produce such limited means to convey his values? What about people who can't read? People can't possibly worry about religion because they have to worry everyday about food, shelter and survival?
He has his miraculous ways.
Mike, you and I disagree on interpretations. You can defend your faith and interpretation, as can I. mtg, on the other hand, has never offered a defense of his faith. Not to talk behind someone's back, but I don't think he knows WHAT he believes-only what he doesn't.
(Congregationalists were America's most educated settlers)
Yes, they were and I am sure that there are many conservative bible believing Congregationalists that totally reject these liberal activities that you are referring to.
(Despite what many of the fundamentalists are saying . . .)
If by fundamentalists you mean those who accept the Scriptures as Gods Word . . . then yes, I guess you could call me one. So what do you call someone who does not believe that the Scriptures are Gods inspired Word? I think the bible calls them unbelievers . . .
Mike,
As you have already mentioned; you have a social definition for marriage opposed to a biblical view of marriage . . . if you have a social/cultural view of marriage, why are you using the bible to defend a cultural practice?
Blackho, its not picking and choosing the truth, its having a different interpretation. I have no doubt that to lust after anybody else is considered sin in God's eyes, as lust usually doesn't end well. Anything and everything laid out as sin in the Bible hurts us in the worldly sense (once we're dead, there is no sin, obviously.)
"I do not reject the canon."
If you reject any of it, you reject all of it. Get used to hearing that, my friend.
mgt: From another of your postings "People have always "picked and chosen" what they want to believe. The early church councils (as the old men chose the canon) were "picking and choosing" sessions."
And from this one ""So when The Apostle Paul, In Romans says that homosexuality is an Abomination unto God, It is as though Christ spoke the Words."
Hardly........ "
So, by picking and choosing what you want to hear and what you do not, you are rejecting the Canon.
I'm just trying to get a handle on what you believe, and what you don't. Can you tell us which Books of Scripture you believe to be Truth, and which you do not? It sounds like you don't read the Pauline letters. What do you read?
And what in the world is "Yeah, thought so" supposed to mean? Is this adults communicating?
I do not reject the canon.
mtg: I guess I'll repeat someone else's question; And where did you study theology?
Yeah, thought so.
We know God's mind from His Creation and His Word. Actually, that is in 1 Cor 2:16.
I've noticed that you never use Scripture to demonstrate your point. I know that you reject the Canon, are there quasi-religious books you do accept?
mtg, we can know God's mind to the extent He allows us to through His Word, the Bible.
Through the glass darkly, I would say. And for some folk on this Web site, VERY darkly.....
As if any of us could know God' mind....
Thinking men and women everywhere can decide whatever they want, but somehow God still won't change His mind.
First of all, Fifth Seal, despite what many of the fundamentalists are saying, you are quite sharp and spot on in your rational approach towards understanding the significance of religious texts rather than taking them as snippets and parroting a priest or other religious teacher.
Second, it is quite telling about the rest of you who are decrying Robinson's decision to say a prayer for the ENTIRE NATION. You all are so self centered and un-American it makes me sick. An inauguration prayer should be inclusive of all Americans. To do otherwise is to wholly discount non-Christians across this nation.
Congregationalists were America's most educated settlers. They have led the way in this country since 1620. They continue to lead. (My Anglican Virginia settlers who got here before 1620 were slackers, compared to the New England Puritans (when it comes to theology, at any rate).
On a related topic, I think these pastors got it right - especially paragraph 3:
5 Same-Sex Couples Wed In Ashland Church
January 13, 2009
ASHLAND, Ore. -- Clergy members at an Ashland church performed marriage ceremonies for five same-sex couples Saturday, even though Oregon doesn't recognize the marriages as legal.
The Rev. Pam Shepherd and three other clergy members who performed the ceremonies Saturday at the First Congregational United Church of Christ have pledged not to sign marriage licenses for any couple, gay or straight, until they can sign the licenses for all.
They say they'll let the state worry about the civil side of the religious ceremonies they held Saturday.
Lisa Spencer and Karen Wennlund were among the couples. They said the day was as much about the couples' commitment to God, their communities and each other as it was about making a political statement.
There were four female couples and one male couple, according to a report in the Ashland Daily Tidings newspaper.
Thinking men (and women) - everywhere. Get used to it.
Actually, Paul said "Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders"
1 Cor 6:9.
Leviticus uses the term "abomination".
But we go back to my question of earlier: If God does not tell us which of his commands to live by, then does man?
Which man?
mtgburrell, Barack Obama, Rick Warren?
And where did you study theology, mtg?
That's what I thought . . .
"So when The Apostle Paul, In Romans says that homosexuality is an Abomination unto God, It is as though Christ spoke the Words."
Hardly........
The Bible declares that " All " Scripture is by the Inspiration of God, Meaning from Genesis to Revelation, has Christ's stamp of approval on it.
So when The Apostle Paul, In Romans says that homosexuality is an Abomination unto God, It is as though Christ spoke the Words.
anyone is entitled to believe whatever they chose, without recrimination.
but the point that obama is making is that robinson's belief is valid and will be honored by this administration along with those of rick warren's. this inclusion within a single administration is as ground breaking as obama's ethnicity and his being president.
ShuckCreations:
We are not SLAVES to the Law, nor bondservants to sin, but we still obviously need to obey God's commands. Else, who decides what commands to follow? Is it proper to bring an asherah pole to the pulpit and place in in front of the cross? To lie with your father's wife?
To murder?
Who decides which commandments to follow? God, or man? And if man, which man? Why does Gene Robinson have any more authority than Fred Phelps?
this particular sin is is definitely at the head of popular sins. america is a cesspool. it has been for a long time. i pray for protection for myself and immediate family members when the big boom hits.
"Oh, Jesus actually never spoke to homosexuality...ever."
Spoken like a true pagan who has never studied Scripture. Christ not only affirmed the Old Testament laws -- prescribed marriage to be between one man and one woman -- but He reinforced the fact that sexual perverts will not enter the Kingdom.
ShuckCreations,
It is evident that many are side stepping the real issue here; they are nit picking at the Old Testament in order to conceal the fact that the scriptures as a whole do NOT mention or support homosexuality . . .
St. John, look at my last post. We are not required to obey those laws anymore. Christ came so we don't have to. Read Hebrews man, Paul explains all about such things and how they can't save us. Christ saves not the laws.
Wilderness 1: "Throughout America, there are those today who are engaged in homosexual activity, an abomination, and in that wickedness, they are not ashamed, nor able to blush. The abomination agenda is a militant movement, directed by Satan, to infiltrate and establish acceptance in society, public schools, and churches. If they do not repent, such will fall by the judgment of God, and will not inherit the kingdom of God."
Nice to hear from Fred Phelps! How are things in Topeka, Fred?
wilderness1, do you also see it as an abomination to eat a ham and cheese sandwich, or a lobster, or to wear a cotton and polyester blend shirt, or to plant two crops in the same field? Probably not. Jesus seemed willing to break the Law when it was appropriate, despite Matthew's claim to the contrary.
Arkansas,
Please stop shouting. The big letters go at the beginning of sentences and proper nouns.
Fifth Seal said: "Let us not forget that there are a LOT of laws and regulations in the Bible, especially the Old Testament."
True
"If not being able to observe all laws at all times makes someone unqualified to be a leader, wouldn't that make Jesus unqualified?"
False
Romans 7:6
But now we have been released from the law, for we died to it and are no longer captive to its power. Now we can serve God, not in the old way of obeying the letter of the law, but in the new way of living in the Spirit.
Christ came with a New Covenant and when He rose from the grave He fulfilled that. Paul says over and over and over again that we are no longer bound to the laws given in the Old Testament.
Also don't forget to realize the difference between The Law and our Sin. Again the wise Paul said this:
Colossians 2:20-23
You have died with Christ, and he has set you free from the spiritual powers of this world. So why do you keep on following the rules of the world, such as, "Don't handle! Don't taste! Don't touch!"? Such rules are mere human teachings about things that deteriorate as we use them. These rules may seem wise because they require strong devotion, pious self-denial, and severe bodily discipline. But they provide no help in conquering a person's evil desires.
Colossians 3:2-3
Think about the things of heaven, not the things of earth. For you died to this life, and your real life is hidden with Christ in God.
Colossians 3:5-9
So put to death the sinful, earthly things lurking within you. Have nothing to do with sexual immorality, impurity, lust, and evil desires. Don't be greedy, for a greedy person is an idolater, worshiping the things of this world. Because of these sins, the anger of God is coming. You used to do these things when your life was still part of this world. But now is the time to get rid of anger, rage, malicious behavior, slander, and dirty language. Don't lie to each other, for you have stripped off your old sinful nature and all its wicked deeds.
the Fifth Seal,
You stated, (where people who loved, tolerated, included, invited, and forgiven, etc . . .)
Believe me, I do see the social dilemma we find ourselves in and the implications that both of our views hold . . . but the question has to be asked: by whose standard should we be measured by . . . whose moral compass will we allow ourselves to be guided by? For some Christians, it is Gods Word; it says:
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness (2 Timothy 3:16).
Or do we allow the culture to determine which direction we should go . . . this seems to be the position of the liberal camp? Which is it . . . the culture or Gods Word?
Christians do love, tolerate, include, invite, and forgive others as we have been forgiven . . . but remember, not only have we been called to accept Christ by faith but we have also been called by faith to repent, deny ourselves and follow Christ . . . let us not deceive ourselves by rationalizing our sinful behaviors and expect God to turn away at our disobedience. I can understand why some do not like having scripture read to them, for we read:
For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart (Hebrews 4:12).
It cuts me just as much as it does everyone else . . . but that is no reason to ignore it. So lets stop trying to dismiss God Word by creating a false dichotomy between the Old and the New Testament; there are New Testament passages that speak just as clearly on this subject as does the Old. We should honestly acknowledge that our way is the wrong way and allow Christ to transform us from the inside out. What do you say?
Matthew 23:13-24
Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the kingdom of heaven in men's faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to.
Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as you are.
Woe to you, blind guides! You say, 'If anyone swears by the temple it means nothing; but if anyone swears by the gold of the temple, he is bound by his oath. You blind fools! Which is greater: the gold, or the temple that makes the gold sacred? You also say, 'If anyone swears by the altar, it means nothing; but if anyone swears by the gift on it, he is bound by his oath.' You blind men! Which is greater: the gift, or the altar that makes the gift sacred? Therefore, he who swears by the altar swears by it and by everything on it. And he who swears by the temple swears by it and by the one who dwells in it. And he who swears by heaven swears by God's throne and by the one who sits on it.
Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices- mint, dill and cummin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law- justice, mercy, and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter without neglecting the former. You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel.
(Diane626:)The Proverbs passage, direct at Bishop Robinson is irrelevant, but perhaps at the nation... at ANY nation, I could see a point.
Let us not forget that there are a LOT of laws and regulations in the Bible, especially the Old Testament. Obsession with these and how, when, and where to appropriate observe them is just the kind of change that Jesus himself sought to begin. He didn't observe all the laws, working on the Sabbath, etc. There are too many "minor" topics discussed to be observed by any one person, and it's not always the best option to be so rigid, as Jesus showed by healing on the Sabbath. (Arkansaslinck:)If not being able to observe all laws at all times makes someone unqualified to be a leader, wouldn't that make Jesus unqualified?
(Wilderness1:)Lots of things are an "abomination"... gossip, adultery, etc. I find it hard to believe that those that actually cause HARM to another human are somehow less of an abomination that those that cause NO HARM to anyone.
(AussieAndy:) A prayer is a conversation with God. There is no reason why anyone HAS to use the Bible in their prayer. If I'm praying to God for the nation, I can do so by simply saying the things I would like for the nation. The fact that I don't say anything about the Bible doesn't make me less of a Christian.
I PERSONALLY HOPE RICK WARREN DOES NOT WITHDRAW. IT IS VERY IMPORTANT TO HAVE A TRUE MAN OF GOD REPRESENTING THE CHRISTIAN.
I AM SEEING IN THESE POSTING SOME PEOPLE TO INCLUDE FIFTH SEAL WHO HAVE A VERY DIM PICTURE OF WHAT THE BIBLE-GOD'S WORD-IS. ALL SCRIPTURE IS GIVEN BY INSPIRATIONOF GODAND IS PROFITABLEFOR DOCTRINE,FOR REPROOF, FOR CORRECTION, FOR INSTRUCTION IN RIGHTEOUSNESS IITIMOTHY 3:16 FOR EVEN ONE VERSE OF SCRIPTURE TO BE OVERLOOKED OR NOT TAKEN SERIOUSLY IS FOLLY
Throughout America, there are those today who are engaged in homosexual activity, an abomination, and in that wickedness, they are not ashamed, nor able to blush. The abomination agenda is a militant movement, directed by Satan, to infiltrate and establish acceptance in society, public schools, and churches. If they do not repent, such will fall by the judgment of God, and will not inherit the kingdom of God.
A minister who purports to be a follower of Jesus says he wont be using the bible in his prayer? I guess that it'd be a bit hyprocritical to use a book that considers your lifestyle to be sinful.
Rick Warren would earn acres of kudos if he withdrew his participation.
Ohowy:
First, I don't think any focus of this discussion is on anyone denying what Jesus taught, unless we're denying tolerance, love of our neighbors, or forgiveness. If upholding those things taught by Jesus makes me a liberal, I will happily bear the title. If you are a Christian, following Christ's teachings, then quote his own words and show me that my Savior wants me to tell a woman that she has no right over her own body, or that I should prevent prevent two people from being committed in love to another. There may be miscontrued references althroughout the Bible having to do with these and many other topics, but I will look to you to prove to me that the Christ spoke in his own words against these or any other.
Secondly, I don't recall in any of my previous postings having denied that Jesus died and rose again.
Thirdly, I do not select bits and pieces of the Bible, which is why such minor topics like homosexuality or abortion do not upset me. I see the Bible as a whole, looking at the Greater Message, the Good News. I don't find little issues as difinitive to whether or not a person is a Christian. Don't miss the forest for the trees!
Finally, Bishop Robinson is careful to represent the fact that God, the Essence of all things, encompasses even non-Christians. Whether people are Christians or not, they are still God's children, and deserving of inclusion and invitation to commune with God. I weep for you and for anyone who would wish "great punishment" upon anyone. For you will be judged as you have judged. I feel that Bishop Robinson is sending a wonderful message about how the Christian faith is reconciling with herself. Many Christians are tired of hearing emphasis on death and destruction. What about all the positive lessons from Christ that help build us up as people? Inclusion, tolerance, love...
If "hell" is where people who've loved, tolerated, included, invited, and forgiven go... I'll be happy to hold God's hand on the way there.
Diana626,
I agree . . . my post was speaking of bishop Robinson, not the nation in particular.
the Fifth Seal,
The admonition to always check passages for ones self is outstanding advice that should always be taken seriously, I will give you that; however, Proverbs 28:9 still speaks to us today and is relevant to the discussion at hand. Its warning is repeated throughout scripture and in fact we see a similar example of it in the first chapter, we read:
Because I have called, and ye refused; I have stretched out my hand, and no man regarded; But ye have set at nought all my counsel, and would none of my reproof: I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear cometh;
When your fear cometh as desolation, and your destruction cometh as a whirlwind; when distress and anguish cometh upon you. Then shall they call upon me, but I will not answer; they shall seek me early, but they shall not find me (Proverbs 1:24-28).
If we consciously disregard the Word of God do you think our prayers will be answered? No; those whose prayers are not heard are those who willfully and obstinately refuse to obey Gods Word; scripture is clear on this matter. As far as topics that are relevant . . . there are no examples in the Bible where we read of homosexual bishops or homosexual marriages for that matter, so, sorry my friend . . . from a biblical stand point there is no justification for either one of these.
I WOULD DEFINITLY WANT TO KNOW THAT I HAD A MAJOR PROBLEM. BY NOT AGREEING WITH GOD'S WORD, BY NOT FOLLOWING IT IN EVERYTHING ONE HAS A PROBLEM. THEY ARE AT BEST VERY WEAK CHRISTIANS AND HAVE NO BUSINESS IN LEADERSHIP POSITIONS
ShuckCreations:
1) Agreed.
2) I feel that Obama is emmulating Jesus as any other Christian would. Name one President who hasn't been rich, and one administration that hasn't imposed taxes. The taxes are how the government pays for things. And you said it yourself, there were donations. I'm sure lots of churches have also accepted donations themselves. What of them? Christ's work?
3) No, not ALL Christians have fundamentalist views, but I feel that more often than not, those who tend to be a little more disagreeable also tend to be of a funamentalist persuasion. Yes, we do have scriptures, but even they could be argued to be incomplete as they were "selected" from the hundreds of books used by the early Christians.
Which leads to the next point...
4) Agreed that Paul was right about the foundation, but he wasn't referring to diversity, rather to divisions. And quite honestly, that's something that would take two-thousand years of undoing history to acheive. Protestants are split from each other, and before that from the Catholic Church, which removed all other earlier Christian groups to establish themselves as dominant and the texts they approve as legitimate. However, there were lots of early Christian groups, and I think Paul was trying to emphasize that we stick to Christ and his teachings as central... the rest is up for debate but no cause for division.
Diversity is beautiful.
Oh, Jesus actually never spoke to homosexuality...ever. This man has done nothing wrong, yet you accuse him of such when it doesn't really make sense. Jesus spoke plenty about loving each other as we love ourselves. Would you want everyone telling you you're not a Christian because they disagree with you?
It is a tragedy when people try to say someone who denies what Jesus taught can be a Christian. mtgburrell/ fifth seal, the word Christian is made from the word Christ! Of course you know this, but at the same time you liberals reject him, you say a liberal can be a Christian. But surely to be a Christian means obeying Christ. To not do this is to call Him a liar and to doubt what He said. It is to doubt that he died and rose from the dead to pay for our sins. People like you will always try to deny this, yet somehow, peversely, you still claim to be a Christian. There are direct references to the sin of homosexuality (including the New Testament) but you always choose to ignore these. Therefore you are not really following Christ and therefore just like BO (who is pro abortion when God says 'I know you from the moment you are concieved') who just tries to select the bits from the bible that you can manage to mould to your own views. Either you accept the bible, completely, or you dont accept it at all and you reject Jesus himself. Jesus said 'I am the way, the truth and the life, no one comes to the Father except through me'. So if someone like Robinson says, 'I will be careful not to be especially Christian in my prayer', wow clearly he is not praying to Christ's Father is he! So to you liberals, to whom is he praying? Is he praying to the same god that one of his liberal colleagues from the same church who claims to be a 'christian/muslim' prays to? I guess indeed he is, a false god that will cause great punishment for those who lead people astray AS FORETOLD BY JESUS HIMSELF. Without repentance, without accepting Jesus is who he says he is, literally, the only path is to hell.
Online4Him said "He that turneth away his ear from hearing the law, even his prayer shall be abomination (Proverbs 28:9). "
Sorry but this nation has violated all of God's law for centuries... lets start with the first two commandments, the most important...
If you are knee deep idolatry (as this country is), your laws and your people will bear that fruit out....
Fifth Seal...
1) Yes, the bible is misquoted a lot. Mainly by people who have never read it.
2) How exactly is Obama emmulating Jesus? For one, Jesus was poor. Obama is rich, he took millions of donations, he wants to take my tax money and waste it on pork! Doesn't sound Christ-like to me.
3) Christians don't have "fundamentalist views," we have God's view as laid out in His word.
4) There shouldn't be any diversity of the Christian faith. The only foundation should be that of Christ, Jesus! (1 Corinthians 3:11)
It is also preceded by, "So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them."
Concern with responses here for two reasons:
1.) Quoting the Bible out of context and placing pieces wherever they might appear to support one's argument is misleading. I challenge all believers to always question the motivations of people who would do such a thing, and to always check the passages yourself. For example, Wilderness1, the text you used is preceeded by "But I am full of the wrath of the Lord, and I cannot hold it in. 'Pour it out on the children in the street and on the young men; both husband and wife will be caught in it, and the old, those weighed down with years." (Jer. 6:11) Is this really the message you're wishing to quote? If so, how is it relevant to our President Elect's inclusion of an obviously well-educated and tolerant religious leader such as Bishop Robinson? And Online4Him, your quote is followed by "He whose walk is blameless is kept safe, but he whose ways are perverse will suddenly fall." (Prov. 28:18) Wouldn't this quote argue the opposite of what your arguing, yet is found in the same chapter? Suppose one would argue that.
I guess anyone using the Bible or any other Scripture out of context could argue anything they wanted. Wouldn't it be better if we left the quoting for topics relevant, and therefore prevent ourselves from misusing something we consider sacred?
2.) I believe our President Elect is doing a good job at creating a peaceful and tolerant environment for all citizens... not unlike a certain "rebel" who welcomed tax collecters and other not-so-popular people into his fold. I think many of the negative responses here could learn a thing or two from Obama, or from the very person he seemingly emmulates, Jesus. There's no doubt in my mind that he is a Christian, and I find it disgraceful that any other so-called Christian would think to exclude him or label him as something else simply because he doesn't conform to that particular persons fundamentalist view.
May God bless our President Elect and our nation.
And may God protect and inspire both spiritual leaders as they show the diversity and balance of today's Christian faith at the inauguration.
Mike22685 said, "...clearly if he's a bishop he has intense faith."
His intense faith is in another god, a god that many others have embraced, a golden image after the likeness of corruptible man. They have resisted the exhortation of holiness and have been hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
Maybe soon, the eyes of their understanding will be enlightened, that they might come to repentance, acknowledging the truth, and recover from the snare of the devil.
THIS MAN CANNOT REPRESENT THE CHRISTIAN GOD FOR HE IS AN ABOMINATION TO GOD DUE TO HIS CHOSEN LIFESTYLE. FOR ANY PRESIDENT TO CHOOSE TO UTILIZE SUCH A MAN IN A SPIRITUAL ROLE IS ALSO WRONG IN THE EYES OF GOD. JUST READ THE HISTORY OF THE ISREALITES IN THE BIBLE.
Artm, clearly if he's a bishop he has intense faith. I don't think its your place to judge his beliefs, but rather to love and pray that God's will be done. The Our Father is actually my favorite prayer, because Jesus, knowing we have our own agendas, taught us to pray "God's will be done." Not our will, his. I think it is a huge slap in the face to your faith to believe you could come close to understanding the will or ways of God. Put it in his hands and let that be that. I can't say with 100% certainty that my life is always on the right path, but I have FAITH that God will bring me to where I need to be.
artm,
IMO Rick Warren should participate. How else will the TRUTH be spoken?
The time has come for Christians to stand up and speak out on the Word of God. God Word tells us to "be bold in Christ." We've been complacent too long, we have only ourselves to blame.
mtgburrell said: "A Muslim? Gimme a break.... Now, that sounds like hate talk, if you ask me, because it comes from what seems like a hateful heart."
Nah, I'm merely judging him by his fruits. If he says he's a Christian then I will hold him to God's Word. He would rather defy it so I'm calling him out.
And no, it's not my kind of Christian....it's God's. Period. He laid out the rules. Not me.
Or better: "Why don't you just own up to the fact that you aren't [my kind of] Christian?"
Hey, what's the big surprise, people? Obama said he was going to bring everybody in. Get it? EVERYbody. Gene Robinson and Rick Warren included. Say it out loud: EVERYBODY.
If you say it enough times, maybe you'll get over all your carping.
A Muslim? Gimme a break.... Now, that sounds like hate talk, if you ask me, because it comes from what seems like a hateful heart. (I could be wrong. I apologize if I am.)
Oh Mr. Obama...first an America hating, racist pastor, then a woman preacher, and now a gay bishop. Why don't you just own up to the fact that you aren't a Christian and you love to demean, ridicule and blaspheme God's word. I don't know how much more we need to see just how un-Christian BO is.
I still say he is a muslim and possibly the anti-christ!!!
I think Robinson SHOULD quote scripture from the Bible. something really inspirational like Joshua 15:22-24:
"Kinah, Dimonah, Adadah, Kedesh, Hazor, Ithnan, Ziph, Telem, Bealoth."
And, by the way, Mr. Robinson DOES believe in the Bible. He is just not as narrow as you folks.
Amen! Why don't you people evolve?
"Were they ashamed when they had committed abomination? nay, they were not at all ashamed, neither could they blush: therefore they shall fall among them that fall: at the time that I visit them they shall be cast down, saith the LORD" (Jer 6:15).
and the slippery slope continues to become more dangerous.....
God will NOT continue to bless our nations
He that turneth away his ear from hearing the law, even his prayer shall be abomination (Proverbs 28:9).
Mr Robinson won't use a Bible because he doesn't beleive the Bible. And this is why Mr Warren should have refused to take part in the Inaugural event.