Televangelism Empire Hit Hard by Recession, Family Split

By Associated Press Writer|Gillian Flaccus

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The Schullers consider the church a family business and the younger Schuller's 2006 appointment was sanctioned by the Crystal Cathedral's parent denomination, the Reformed Church in America.

But the church announced on Nov. 29 that Schuller Jr. had resigned as senior pastor, just a month after he was removed from the church's syndicated broadcasts. In a news release, Schuller Sr. said: "Robert and I have been struggling as we each have different ideas as to the direction and the vision for this ministry."

The church has since instituted a rotating roster of high-profile guest preachers, including Bill Hybels of Willow Creek Community Church, the Chicago-area megachurch, and evangelist Luis Palau.

Schuller Sr.'s daughters and sons-in-law remain involved in the church, some in key roles. But Juan Carlos Ortiz, the interim senior pastor, hopes to appoint a senior pastor with no ties to the Schuller family within two years.

On the church Web site, concerned members and TV fans have posted hundreds of comments protesting the upheaval, with some indicating they have stopped giving or will leave altogether.

Several angry viewers have launched petitions to get the younger Schuller back.

Melody Mook, a 58-year-old medical transcriptionist from El Paso, Texas, said she stopped her $25 monthly donation and is looking elsewhere for her spiritual needs. She said she dislikes the guest pastors.

"I feel hurt and confused and I'm not sure that I want to sit and watch when I know there's problems beneath the surface," she said. "You feel like you're in somebody else's church every Sunday."

Others said they felt betrayed that the Schullers couldn't put God before their family spat.

"They have not been forthcoming at all," said John Dewart, an insurance agent from New Jersey who's watched for 30 years. "Why can't a father and son work together for the glory of God? That's my big question."

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dadgramppa »

Thu Feb 26, 2009 4:37 pm Agree: 1 Disagree: 0

Jesus built His Church with Spiritual gifts to each believer. Get off the couch and minister to real people GIVE don't just be enetained
useranon »

Thu Feb 19, 2009 12:46 pm Agree: 2 Disagree: 1

I would respectfully like to say that the cult of personality that has grown around christian leaders and evangelicals in particular is singularly responsible for the decline of the churches or missions they founded. The line that stood out to me in the entire article was 'members often donate to their pastors and not the institution'. The blame I think should be assigned two fold. First to the congregants or members who put the person who is preaching/teaching above all and idolize them and in some ways become fans of the preacher not unlike those of film or movie stars. This is very wrong because we forget who we should be glorifying. Not the preacher, but the Lord. The preacher may be the most oratorical, interesting gifted person in this world, but none can take the place of the Savior and we should never forget that. Secondly and in this case the majority of the fault lies with the preacher because in the beginning they are humble. Then pride and greed take over. Becoming a preacher is a calling a privilege. Not a reason to build a business empire that one can bequeath to one's heirs. Not a reason to build shiny edifices, have million dollar homes, personal jets, designer clothes, luxury cars amasses on other people's hard earned money given for the expansion of God's kingdom and not for building wealth and job security for future generations of the preacher's family. This recession or whatever the current economic situation the country is in has opened up the eyes of the community and they are looking at who are the recipients of their money. I personally would rather give to foundations like the Bill Gates foundation that actually use their own money in much better ways than our so called christian leaders can ever use. No one wants our preachers to starve. But until preachers live a life that is in line with what they preach and stop treating organizations they built like their personal empire and chose competent and godly people to succeed them instead of hereditary succession like some feudal system, these organizations will continue to unravel. And they should because the ones that deserve to be standing are the ones that are truly there to serve the Lord, not the ones that glorify preacher who founded it or ones that serve as a non profit religious feudal empire.
Online4Him »

Sat Feb 07, 2009 10:36 am Agree: 4 Disagree: 0

Tallguy1000,

You see . . . Prophet understood what the church fathers were saying in my post . . . why cant you? Come on, give it a try . . .
Prophet »

Sat Feb 07, 2009 10:25 am Agree: 3 Disagree: 0

Wow! Did somone stump tallguy with a question he can't answer? Or can't answer without incriminating the Catholic Churhc? That's amazing!
Tallguy1000 »

Sat Feb 07, 2009 9:13 am Agree: 0 Disagree: 0

Online, have YOU figured out what you copied and pasted yet? You copied and pasted it, YOU explain it... I bet you can't!
Online4Him »

Sat Feb 07, 2009 12:04 am Agree: 0 Disagree: 0

Msn,

Have you figured out what the church fathers were saying yet?
Prophet »

Fri Feb 06, 2009 10:32 pm Agree: 0 Disagree: 0

Believer,
Amen. Our works here on earth will determine our reward in heaven.
believer »

Fri Feb 06, 2009 10:30 pm Agree: 0 Disagree: 0

chris, you could give Stretch Armstrong a run for his money on this one. Christians when they die appear before the Judgment Seat of Christ and non-Christians will be present at the Great White Throne Judgment. At the Judgment Seat of Christ all our works will be tested and will either be burnt up like wood, hay, and stubble or refined like gold and silver, those works that survive will become the crowns we place at the feet of Christ, but it is only our works that will be tested and we will not experience suffering as is taught of those who spend time in purgatory. At the Great White Throne Judgment the unsaved will be held accoutnable for all their sins and cast into hell to pay for those sins for the rest of eternity as a result of refusing to accept Christ as their Savior.
Prophet »

Fri Feb 06, 2009 7:12 pm Agree: 0 Disagree: 0

For those of you who may not get it...that last post was the Catholic interpretation of the Scripture that says "It is appointed unto man once to die, then the judegement."

The scripture that Catholics use to support purgatory is so far removed from what it means, that you would have to be drunk or stupid to believe it. The scripture is talking about the judgement itself, not "purgatory".
Prophet »

Fri Feb 06, 2009 7:10 pm Agree: 0 Disagree: 1

It is appointed unto man once to die, then we go to purgatory and are perfected and prepared for heaven, then the judgement.
Prophet »

Fri Feb 06, 2009 7:09 pm Agree: 0 Disagree: 0

"Do you believe after you die you will be personally judged for what you DID on earth?'

I don't see anywhere where the Scriptures state exactly what the process is that God uses to judge us.

"If you are a good bible believer, then the judgement process will sound a lot like Purgatory even if it is you describing it because the "Judgement process" is in Scripture.'

No. If I was a good CATHOLIC follower, than it would. From what I've heard about purgatory, it is not a place of judgement, but a place of being "perfected" for the judgement. That's two different things.

" However, nothing impure can enter Heaven and no who dies is perfect or perfectly holy. We all have blemishes that only God can see in our soul."

Once we are saved, our spirits are perfect.
msnchris70 »

Fri Feb 06, 2009 6:53 pm Agree: 0 Disagree: 1

Prophet,

Do you believe after you die you will be personally judged for what you DID on earth?

If yes, tell me God's process of judgement. I am not asking about going to heaven or hell. I am not asking about where you will end up. What I am asking is about the process of judgement. Do you see God siting on some pearly looking throne with flowers welcoming you? Do you see Angels singing to you? Do you watch too much cable TV?

If you are a good bible believer, then the judgement process will sound a lot like Purgatory even if it is you describing it because the "Judgement process" is in Scripture.

God's love paid the ultimate price on the Cross, and because you have faith and because you have His Grace you will be saved. However, nothing impure can enter Heaven and no who dies is perfect or perfectly holy. We all have blemishes that only God can see in our soul.

So, the question is.......since we can not merit Heaven, HOW DOES GOD Grace PURIFY US OR CLEASE US FROM OUR ATTACHMENTS TO SIN when we die if we have not confessed everything sinful we have done? It is in your bible! You may not call it Purgatory, but that is exactly what it is. It is the HOLY FIRE OF GOD'S love and mercy cleansing you and forgiving you of all your sins.

By Grace you will be saved, through Faith working in Love.
Prophet »

Fri Feb 06, 2009 5:26 pm Agree: 1 Disagree: 0

Purgatory is one of the many false doctrines of the Catholic church.
Wilderness1 »

Fri Feb 06, 2009 1:17 pm Agree: 3 Disagree: 0

"St. Bernardine says, that the pains of purgatory are called waves, because they are transitory, unlike the pains of hell, which never end: and they are called waves of the sea, because they are very bitter pains.

The servants of Mary tormented by those pains are often visited and succored by her. See, then, how important it is, says Novarino, to be a servant of this good Lady; for she never forgets such when they are suffering in those flames. And although Mary succors all the souls in purgatory, yet she always obtains more indulgences and alleviations for those who have been especially devoted to her" (The Glories of Mary).

The above has no biblical support, no foundation in truth. Even today, many believe things that have no biblical support, no foundation in truth. They have become hostages of fables and commandments of men that turn from the truth and the simplicity that is in Christ. Here is a good word, "Neither give heed to fables..." (1Ti 1:4).
Online4Him »

Fri Feb 06, 2009 1:04 pm Agree: 0 Disagree: 0

Tallguy & Msn,

Perhaps you should re-read my post slowly . . . maybe then you will understand what the church fathers were saying . . . their quotes are in plain English; it shouldnt be that difficult to come to an understanding . . .
msnchris70 »

Fri Feb 06, 2009 12:04 pm Agree: 0 Disagree: 1

Tallguy,

Hey brother Tallguy! Online at it again?

These quotes prove one point at least, that Online wants Catholics to help him discern Truth! :)

Seriously though, context, context, context Online. If there is no context, then these are only words which is like a boat without a rudder.
Tallguy1000 »

Fri Feb 06, 2009 11:09 am Agree: 0 Disagree: 0

Well it's obvious this will keep going around in a circle. You copied and pasted it, YOU explain.....
Online4Him »

Fri Feb 06, 2009 10:30 am Agree: 1 Disagree: 0

Tallguy,

It appears that you are side stepping my post . . . there are many in your camp who love to quote the Church fathers . . . why is it now that you cannot understand what they are saying in my post? What are they saying?
Tallguy1000 »

Fri Feb 06, 2009 8:30 am Agree: 0 Disagree: 0

Online, maybe you can do us all a favor and explain what you are trying to say. It's easy to copy and paste, but do you really understand what you copied and pasted?
Online4Him »

Thu Feb 05, 2009 9:07 pm Agree: 0 Disagree: 0

msn,

Perhaps you can explain what the church fathers were saying in my post to tallguy?
Prophet »

Thu Feb 05, 2009 4:58 pm Agree: 2 Disagree: 0

"...we are all called to defend the Truth of Jesus Christ and His Church..."

There's an oxymoron for you. The truth of Jesus and His Chruch. Since they are so opposite, it makes me wonder about the psychological stability of the Catholic heirarchy.
believer »

Thu Feb 05, 2009 4:46 pm Agree: 3 Disagree: 0

chris, plus you catholic posters can't even agree on what the catholic church teaches about purgatory.
believer »

Thu Feb 05, 2009 4:38 pm Agree: 3 Disagree: 0

chris, you sure can change a lot of horses in mid-stream. One minute you tell us it is the responsibility of the priest to rightly interpret the Word of God and now you say you can, so which is it?
Prophet »

Thu Feb 05, 2009 12:43 pm Agree: 5 Disagree: 0

"....but we are not allowed to create interpretations that go against the Church's teaching, since it is the Church that has Christ Authority."

The Church's teaching....even though the "church's teaching" goes against the Scriptures. And Catholics continue to prove that the "Church" is above the Scriptures, thus they are above God.
msnchris70 »

Thu Feb 05, 2009 12:31 pm Agree: 0 Disagree: 6

Believer,

I have every right to affirm Catholic teaching without Holy Orders. As a Lay person we are all called to defend the Truth of Jesus Christ and His Church, but we are not allowed to create interpretations that go against the Church's teaching, since it is the Church that has Christ Authority.

I am simply affirming Catholic teaching and putting it into words that will help you better understand it. Since I was a Reformed Pastor for many many years, I feel I can reach some people who are still Protestant and share with them the Truth of the Catholic Church from a Protestant/Evangelical perspective.

I think you would find that there are many misconceptions that can be ferrited out with patience, love and understanding realizing that we all have our own way of describing things and that our language and culture portends certain biases which can be overcome with the previously mentioned virtues.
Online4Him »

Thu Feb 05, 2009 10:35 am Agree: 2 Disagree: 0

Tallguy,

Have you determined what the church fathers were saying yet?
Forgivensinner »

Thu Feb 05, 2009 10:18 am Agree: 0 Disagree: 0

This is what I noticed:

1) "The (RC) Church gives the name Purgatory"

2) "The (RC) Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent."

As I understand this passage, at the day of Judgement, we will stand before God and all our work (our growth in Him), all that we built upon our foundation of Jesus, will be judged. At that time what ever is good/right (aligned with the mind of Christ) in our growth work is recognized/praised about, Well done good and faithful servant. All that is faulty, still about us, in our growth work will be consumed by fire and we come to heaven without increased growth into the full mind of Christ. (A babe still.) I see this is a level of maturity in Christ, of which will be different in all God's children at the day of Judgement.
Wilderness1 »

Thu Feb 05, 2009 8:22 am Agree: 1 Disagree: 0

"BENEDICT XIII. granted two hundred days indulgence for every 'Our Father' and every 'Hail Mary' to those who recite this little crown in the churches of the Servites of Mary, and has granted the same favor to those who recite it in any place whatever on Fridays or any day during Lent; and on other days, one hundred days for every 'Our Father,' and 'Hail Mary.' To those who recite it entire, seven years. To those who recite it for a year, plenary indulgence, applicable to the souls in purgatory.

Moreover, let it be observed that there are seven hundred years of indulgence for the dead granted by Clement XII. to those who say, kneeling, the De Profundis at the ringing of the bell" (The Glories of Mary).

The above strayed far from "All scripture...is profitable for doctrine" (2 Ti 3:16). Take heed, and "Be not carried about with divers and strange doctrines" (Heb 13:9).
DJK24 »

Thu Feb 05, 2009 8:17 am Agree: 2 Disagree: 0

The teaching of purgatory by the Roman Church, baptism of the dead by the Mormons and snake handlers are all in the same category. Extra Biblical teachings! Not Biblical, made up!
Tallguy1000 »

Thu Feb 05, 2009 7:21 am Agree: 0 Disagree: 2

There we go...
the biblical truth about pergatory, very well written and we are all to follow it.
Forgivensinner »

Wed Feb 04, 2009 7:06 pm Agree: 0 Disagree: 0

III. THE FINAL PURIFICATION, OR PURGATORY (from the catechism)

1030 All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.

1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.604 The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:605

As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.606
1032 This teaching is also based on the practice of prayer for the dead, already mentioned in Sacred Scripture: "Therefore [Judas Maccabeus] made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin."607 From the beginning the Church has honored the memory of the dead and offered prayers in suffrage for them, above all the Eucharistic sacrifice, so that, thus purified, they may attain the beatific vision of God.608 The Church also commends almsgiving, indulgences, and works of penance undertaken on behalf of the dead:

Let us help and commemorate them. If Job's sons were purified by their father's sacrifice, why would we doubt that our offerings for the dead bring them some consolation? Let us not hesitate to help those who have died and to offer our prayers for them.609
Online4Him »

Wed Feb 04, 2009 6:34 pm Agree: 3 Disagree: 0

According to the Catholic Encyclopedia, Purgatory is (a place or condition of temporal punishment for those who, departing this life in Gods grace, are not entirely free from venial faults, or have not fully paid the satisfaction due to their transgressions) . . . the bible does not teach that one can pay off their sins; this is another extra biblical doctrine used to prey upon peoples fear . . .
believer »

Wed Feb 04, 2009 5:51 pm Agree: 4 Disagree: 0

chris, plus my wife and I have an aunt who sends a Christimas card every year that says masses are being offered on our behalf to shorten our stay in purgatory!
believer »

Wed Feb 04, 2009 5:49 pm Agree: 3 Disagree: 0

chris, catholicism by chris, but not what was taught to every catholic school kid who attended catholic school in the diocese of Rochester. Plus correct me if I'm wrong but you are really not authorized by the catholic church to speak to this since you have not received the sacrament of holy orders?
Prophet »

Wed Feb 04, 2009 5:23 pm Agree: 3 Disagree: 0

And I've even pointed out the numerous contradictions between what the RCC teaches and what their beloved "Pope" Peter taught. It's really quite evident. One would have to be blind or purposely ignorant to not see.
Prophet »

Wed Feb 04, 2009 5:14 pm Agree: 3 Disagree: 0

Yes, we know the Catholic church has had 2000 years to twist and pervert the scriptures and create new and false doctrines. What's your point?
msnchris70 »

Wed Feb 04, 2009 5:03 pm Agree: 0 Disagree: 3

Ok Prophet,

You see we Catholic have had 2000 years to understand and discern scripture. New Christian sects that you come from were not present when the scriptures were made so no wonder you stray so far.

Please describe for me, in theological terms using scripture, personal judgement and general judgement. Describe what is judged, what isn't, etc.
msnchris70 »

Wed Feb 04, 2009 4:59 pm Agree: 0 Disagree: 3

Believer,

Official Catholic teaching says that Purgatory is a place, but there is no official teaching on "Time" per se because after death there is no time.

Purgatory is place, but we must understand it as a place before the throne of our Lord but not in Heaven. We can guess that those in Purgatory can see Heaven off in the distance and know that is where they are ending up. We don't know how long this purification or purgation takes, but one thing we do know is that our works are judged and depending on how much of your works are made of Hay rather than Gold portends how much loss you will endure. Like Paul said, "you will suffer loss, but be saved".

Another Catholic teaching is that our prayers for those in Purgatory are efficatious. We don't know how exactly, but we know praying for fellow Christians is a good and pious thing just like Saint Paul did when he prayed for his friend Onesiphorous who was already dead. We can offer alms for them, we can also fast for them, just like we can do for our friends here on earth. Since everything we do in almsgiving and fasting and prayer is built on the foundation which is Jesus Christ it is good and pious to do. Do we know exactly how our prayers, almsgiving, fasting helps other Christians either in purgatory or on Earth? No, not exactly but we know that it is a good and pious thing to do.

I hope this helps. By the way, the vast majority of "Cradle" Catholics don't understand Purgatory anymore than most Protestants do. Most all converts understand it and accept it.
Prophet »

Wed Feb 04, 2009 4:59 pm Agree: 3 Disagree: 0

Chris,

The RCC is purposely confusing the judgement with refining or purification. After you die, it's too late to make any changes.

"It is appointed unto man to die once...then comes the judgement." There is not purgatory. And a lot of good Catholics are going to hell because they believe they can be perfected after they die, so they live like the devil here on earth.
Prophet »

Wed Feb 04, 2009 4:56 pm Agree: 3 Disagree: 0

Chris,

The Romans view of purgatory is to "refine" or "perfect" a saint after death. The scripture you quoted speaks of our works that we did on earth being tested as to their worthiness, in which we are judged and rewarded. As the last verse says, some will make it to heaven....barely...but will have nothing to show for it.

The RCC took that scripture (as well as dozens of others) and completely twisted it to make a false doctrine.
Prophet »

Wed Feb 04, 2009 4:54 pm Agree: 3 Disagree: 0

"prophet, "Spoken like a true cult follower".....
With a well thought out and intelligent line like that, you just proved Chris's point!"

Yes, but when He was dealing with people like our current Roman Catholic Church, He used the phrase "brood of vipers." I was trying to be nice.
believer »

Wed Feb 04, 2009 4:00 pm Agree: 2 Disagree: 0

chris, if that is your definition of purgatory then I do not have a problem with that, but that is not the catholic teaching of purgatory, purgatory is a place where people work off their sins so they can go to heaven and their time can be shortened by indulgences and masses being offered on their behalf. Southern Baptists called what you spoke to as the Judgment Seat of Christ and it occurs in the life of every believer and no one works their sin off but simply their works are put on the altar to determine the crowns they will receive to lay at the feet of Christ. Plus, by catholic teaching a person could spend a while, days, weeks, and even years in purgatory whereas a person spends a short period of time at the Judgment Seat of Christ, a one time meeting.
msnchris70 »

Wed Feb 04, 2009 2:07 pm Agree: 1 Disagree: 5

Believer,

Purgatory is more than inferred it is quite explicit.
1 Cor 3:15
6 According to the grace of God given to me, like a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and another is building upon it. But each one must be careful how he builds upon it,
11
for no one can lay a foundation other than the one that is there, namely, Jesus Christ.
12
If anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, or straw,
13
the work of each will come to light, for the Day 7 will disclose it. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire (itself) will test the quality of each one's work.
14
If the work stands that someone built upon the foundation, that person will receive a wage.
15
But if someone's work is burned up, that one will suffer loss; the person will be saved, 8 but only as through fire

Read that last line three times if you must. The Day is the Day of personal judgement when you die, and you receive either Heaven or Hell. Purgatory is the judgement seat of Christ where all your works good and bad will be judged. You are not in Heaven yet, but through fire although you might experience loss you will be saved.

Lutherans and Anglicans believe in the Judgement seat of Christ, but they do not call it Purgatory. Our works will be judged when we die and our works will be tested by the Fire of God's love. The Works that are laid upon the foundation which is Christ, will survive like that of Gold and Silver, but works not laid upon the foundation of Christ like that of hay will be burned and you will suffer loss, but you will be saved.

Purgatory is not a second chance. When you die it is either Heaven or Hell, the key part is when we die we will be judged. Personal Judgement of our lives takes place before we enter Heaven.
Wilderness1 »

Wed Feb 04, 2009 9:31 am Agree: 3 Disagree: 1

Msnchris70 said, "The sheep that are scattered will soon come home to the Shephered who has Christ personal authority."

Please show in scripture where one should "come home" to a man called, Most Blessed Father, Our Holy Father, or Supreme Pontiff of the Universal Church.

Let's stay with Jesus instead. "For ye were as sheep going astray, but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls" (1Pe 2:25).
Online4Him »

Wed Feb 04, 2009 8:39 am Agree: 2 Disagree: 0

Tallguy,

Cant you read English my friend? What are the Church fathers saying in my last post?
Tallguy1000 »

Wed Feb 04, 2009 8:38 am Agree: 1 Disagree: 3

Online, you have proved to me that you are capable of copying and pasting. Maybe my mind doesn't go as deeply as yours, so please explain the point you are trying to prove.

Meanwhile I'll get back to my electrical engineering..
Tallguy1000 »

Wed Feb 04, 2009 8:29 am Agree: 0 Disagree: 2

prophet, "Spoken like a true cult follower".....
With a well thought out and intelligent line like that, you just proved Chris's point!
Online4Him »

Wed Feb 04, 2009 1:36 am Agree: 0 Disagree: 0

Aussie & believer,

Amen . . . this was my experience as well . . . (The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times) Psalms 12:6.
believer »

Wed Feb 04, 2009 1:22 am Agree: 3 Disagree: 0

Aussie, like yourself I was raised catholic and can wholeheartedly relate to your post with regards to what happens when a person is exposed to the true teachings of God as found in the Word of God. When one comes to realize they were both lied to and never told the truth and most specifically what a person must do to be saved.
believer »

Wed Feb 04, 2009 12:58 am Agree: 3 Disagree: 0

chris, according to your own catholic church you can't officially tell us anything regardless of your education because you have not received the sacrament of holy orders.

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