Updated 12:47 pm.EST, Sun November 22, 2009

Opinion|Mon, Feb. 02 2009 11:12 AM EST

Does Homosexuality Stem From a Failure to Bond with the Same-Sex Parent?

By Warren Throckmorton, PhD|Christian Post Guest Columnist

Recently, I wrote an article regarding three misconceptions about homosexuality. The response to this article, published on The Christian Post, was voluminous and intense. On the plus side, some readers were relieved to see these misconceptions addressed, but on the down side, others attacked my orthodoxy and competence. Given this response and the admittedly brief treatment of each of the misconceptions, I plan additional articles which will elucidate each point. Although this deeper examination may raise additional questions, I hope to address some issues provoked by the initial article on misconceptions in ministry.

The first misconception I identified was "all gay people are attracted to the same sex because they did not bond with their parents or were sexually abused." Some readers questioned whether anyone actually holds such an exclusive position. I have been active in writing about and researching sexual orientation and identity formation for over 10 years and my impression is that many, if not most, Christian ministries hold to the view that same-sex attraction stems from a failure of bonding with the same-sex parent. At a Focus on the Family Love Won Out conference in 2007, founder and past-president of the National Association for the Research and Therapy of Homosexuality, the leading group of professionals associated with the bonding-failure theory, was asked by CNN reporter Gary Tuchman, "So you're categorically saying that if a father and son have a normal relationship, that child will not be gay." Dr. Nicolosi replied succinctly, "Yes." Other ministries such as Exodus International often suggest that there may be other causes but present the bonding-failure view as the usual pathway to homosexuality.

I labeled this theory as a misconception because there are gay people who grew up living in clearly loving homes and were quite bonded with their parents, both same- and opposite-sex. Although some same-sex attracted people experienced difficult relationships with their parents, so do many people who have never been attracted to the same sex. In some cases, the difficult relationship began after the same-sex attraction became apparent. In any event, the negative family relationships experienced by some same-sex attracted people do not validate the bonding-failure theory for those gays and lesbians who had warm, happy connections.

Furthermore, the scientific research regarding homosexuality allows no confidence in one particular family constellation as creating homosexuals. A recent study from Andrew Francis of Emory University found that boys in fatherless homes were no more likely to report same-sex activity than boys where fathers were in the home. Surely, if the lack of a bond with father was crucial, then this study would have found more homosexual behavior among fatherless boys. Another recent study compared adults who were abused and neglected as children with those who were not and found no differences in the likelihood of homosexual relationships. In that same study, sexual abuse was associated with a somewhat increased probability of adult homosexuality for men but not for women. Even for the men, many sexually abused boys did not grow up to be homosexual; all homosexuals were not abused. For some people, sexual abuse may have real ramifications for their adult sexual behavior, however one may experience same-sex attraction even if one was not sexually abused. Based on current research, it seems more likely that different factors operate differently for different people to form the direction of sexual attractions. Continue »

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  • Wed Feb 11, 2009 8:29 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Forgiven, thank you for engaging in a respectful conversation. Its very much appreciated! :)

  • Wed Feb 11, 2009 2:29 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    feet, Hebrews 3:12-13, "Take care brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God. But encourage one another day after day, as long as it is still called "Today," so that none of you will be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin." My sense is that due to you and your church's willfully ignoring God's Word in the area of marriage and sexual intimacy this may be happening in your life and the life of your church.

  • Wed Feb 11, 2009 2:09 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    feet, the only problem is if you are not indwelt by God's Holy Spirit there is a good chance you won't sense that conviction because you've hardened your heart in this area of your life!

    to all

    regardless of your accusatiion, why can you not offer any objectived reasoned statements about scripture to challenge my points about spirit?

  • Wed Feb 11, 2009 1:35 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    mike22685, in order for us to make a choice there has to be a choice to make. There was only one tree in the Garden that Adam and Eve could not eat from and what do they do, they make a beeline right to that tree. God is not only all-powerful, He is also all-knowing, He has known for eternity every sin you or I would commit. Based on the logic you used for not putting the tree of the knowledge of good and evil in the Garden, then why would God put anything in our lives that would not only tempt us to sin, but He knows already will cause us to sin. And the reason is because He created us with a free will, the ability to say no to sin as well as say yes to sin. Plus, if we are truly a Christian, God's Word promises that He will not tempt us more than we can handle and that with every temptation that comes into our lives He will provide a means of escape, yet even with that Christians still choose to sin.

  • Wed Feb 11, 2009 11:52 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Mike wrote: "(after all, God is omnipotent, correct?)"

    I agree God is omnipotent and he did know, that is why His plan has always been. It does not change that He has always given us, beginning with Adam and Eve then throughout mankind, the opportunity to freely choose Him.

    I do not believe in evolution as the absence or denial of God, but I agree that God created everything to work perfectly in sync and I also agree the our choices beginning with Adam and Eve had and do have a ripple effect.

    If we did not have temptations there would be no need to choose what is right or better; God. Temptations are around us everyday, all day long, to give us the opportunity to freely choose. Temptations are able to make us stronger and vulnerable all at the same time. I say vulnerable because, we need reminding we cannot do everything all be ourselves, we need God and eachother.

    Thanks for this conversation, Mike. I appreciate it.

  • Wed Feb 11, 2009 11:19 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    I believe in evolution, and that God has simply always been a part of it. I think we are far too developed to be a coincidence, as is all of nature and the systems that work off one another (food chain, water cycle, etc.) As for how sin entered the world? I do believe that people make choices for or against God, and those choices have ripple effects. I think God designed us with the free will to choose him or not, but I don't think God would have created Adam and Eve and put that tempting tree in the garden knowing fully well what they would choose (after all, God is omnipotent, correct?)

    That's why I made the analogy of beer in the fridge. I'm not going to leave it lying around knowing full well what a temptation it will be to try and then be angry when my kids try it.

  • Wed Feb 11, 2009 10:23 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Thanks for responding, Mike.

    I agree with believer that it wasn't about the "apple". It was about choosing/believing God or a lie. Life or death.

    Adam and Eve had life without death in the garden. God wanting them to choose Him freely says you can have everything else in the garden, but this tree, if you do you will know death. He gave them the choice; life or death. Adam and Eve choose to believe a lie and death, thereby changing the relationship they had with with God and ultimately with mankind. Thus the need for Jesus.

    You wrote: "It simply doesn't make sense. I think the creation story is just that: A story to tell about how God's relationship with mankind came to be in the world and how sin began, because we can't answer it otherwise."

    Forgive me, but I do not understand how you make sense that it is a story the tells "how" on either account? How then did God's relationship come into the world with mankind and how did sin enter the world? What is the "story" saying about these hows?

  • Wed Feb 11, 2009 8:27 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    mike22685, we don't know what the fruit was that Adam and Eve ate and the sin was not the eating of the fruit but why they ate the fruit and the fact that they disobeyed God. Satan told them that God lied to them and He did not want them eating the fruit because if they did they would become like God, they would be God. Adam and Eve bought the lie and the rest is history. And that sin is why Jesus Christ had to go to the Cross and shed His precious blood so that we might be saved.

  • Wed Feb 11, 2009 6:21 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    Who knows? That is a question like "Why does God let bad things happen to good people?" and I think the story of Adam and Eve is a crutch to explain something that otherwise cannot be. "Because Adam ate the apple." REALLY? God created this whole universe in 6 days and he's going to let it all go to waste because Adam ate an apple? God is smarter than that, and God knew what Adam would do. Christians fall back on that story because they can't explain how a perfect God stood by idly to let sin enter the world.

    As a parent, you wouldn't say "I'm going out of town. There's some soda downstairs, but don't touch that amazingly delicious beer in the fridge." Your child gets peer pressured and drinks some, and when you find out, you flip out and say "You may not live in this house any longer!" It simply doesn't make sense. I think the creation story is just that: A story to tell about how God's relationship with mankind came to be in the world and how sin began, because we can't answer it otherwise.

  • Tue Feb 10, 2009 10:21 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    to all

    you can call eden a myth, i call it a miracle, the creation of man, adam credited for the sin for all mankind, the tree of knowledge.

    but i dont feel compelled to make laws about them to put myself and others under.

    please annotate, i have no idea what you are referring
    to.

    the bottom line is that faith in christ is not a religion its a relationship. all relationships are about acknowledgement of spirit shared betweeen entities. no intimate relationship between any father and his progeny, or between progeny was ever done under the law , but according to the spirit.

  • Tue Feb 10, 2009 10:04 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    Actually, Mike, Prophet brings up a good question, how do you believe sin entered the world if Adam and Eve is a parable?

  • Tue Feb 10, 2009 9:58 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    Besides, "carnal" is the same word that Paul used for people such as yourself. I could use your word and call you a pathetic human, but I won't debase myself to that level. You're not a pathetic human.

  • Tue Feb 10, 2009 9:57 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    Maybe I could do like many other "Christians" and find a new gospel as well. One that doesn't convict as much.

  • Tue Feb 10, 2009 9:56 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Heathenistic. Worldly. Spiritually ignorant. Lazy. Self-serving. Ungodly.

    I got a whole list. I just figured that "carnal" would be more palatable, and would cause the least anger on your part.

  • Tue Feb 10, 2009 9:47 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    You need to learn a new word.

  • Tue Feb 10, 2009 9:46 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    Even believer gets it.

    Paul speaks of sin entering the world due to Adam and Eve. If they are nothing more than a parable, then sin did not enter into the world, therefore we are not sinners, and Jesus did not need to come and die for our sins, and so He didn't. And if He didn't come die for our sins, then there were no disciples and no apostles. And if Jesus didn't come to die for our sins, and there were no disciples and apostles, then they are just parables.

    Such is the relativism and post-modern thinking that encompasses mike's comments. In other words "carnal".

  • Tue Feb 10, 2009 9:37 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    mike22685, Paul speaks about Adam in several of his letters, if Adam as you say is a fictitious person then what Paul is saying would be fictitious as well, a parable!

  • Tue Feb 10, 2009 9:35 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    feet, the only problem is if you are not indwelt by God's Holy Spirit there is a good chance you won't sense that conviction because you've hardened your heart in this area of your life!

  • Tue Feb 10, 2009 8:44 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    Prophet, denying Adam and Eve is not carnal! You are so ridiculous.

  • Tue Feb 10, 2009 8:09 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    I just did explain it. Read it again.

  • Tue Feb 10, 2009 7:18 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    Prophet, explain how I call the entire new testament a parable. You yourself do not believe the entire old testament or you'd go around killing everyone who was sinning.

  • Tue Feb 10, 2009 7:10 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    SINCE ALL ARE OFTHE SAME MIND, IM ADDRESSING ALL THE COMMENTS IN ONE MESSAGE.

    " sin is sin" "produce all the fake looking fruit you want, feet, sin is sin"

    remember all the sins that jesus was accused of by the pharisees....................................not washing his hands before eating, harvesting(eating grain stalks in field) healing(moses stoned the wood gatherer) on the sabbath, associating, dining and banqueting with sinners, blasphemy, for declaring himself the son of god.

    those that recognized jesus were those were led by the father.


    John 6:44
    "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day"

    .

    because of a spirit relationship with the father, who thru HIS spirit looked thru the eyes hearts of those drawn and showed them an understanding than was higher than the law, than the law handed down for2000 years. it was an understanding born of the leading of the spirit.

    the pharisees on the other hand had only their relationship to the law to fall back on, they denied the spirit, for the sake of their own theology and were unable to have any leading of the father.

    the pharisees,( just like those of today who choose to create laws over the essence of the eden miracle of woman coming from man and hold these laws above the leading of the spirrit)) , did not rely on the leading of the spirit that revealed christ, but chose instead to rely on their blood line because of its lifted emphasis under the old covenant.

    john8: 39"Abraham is our father," they answered.

    matt3:8Produce fruit in keeping with repentance. 9And do not think you can say to yourselves, 'We have Abraham as our father.' I tell you that out of these stones God can raise up children for Abraham. 10The ax is already at the root of the trees, and every tree that does not PRODUCE GOOD FRUITwill be cut down and thrown into the fire.


    SHOW ME IN SCRIPTURE WHERE UNDERTHE NEW COVENANT, FOLLOWING THE LAW HAS ANYTHING TO DO WITH PRODUCING GOOD FRUIT.


    CONTINUED

  • Tue Feb 10, 2009 7:03 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    CONTINUED

    "Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar?
    You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected; "



    no!


    P 1What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather, discovered in this matter? 2If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about,but not before God. 3What does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness."[a]
    4Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. 5However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness. 6David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:
    7"Blessed are they
    whose transgressions are forgiven,
    whose sins are covered.
    8Blessed is the man
    whose sin the Lord will never count against him."[b]


    IT WAS NOT HIS OBEDIENCE TO GOD IN REGARDS TO ISAAC THAT JUSTIFIED ABRAHAM BUT RATHER HIS BELIEVING GOD.


    this is not the same as a belief in god, for even the demons believe in god and shutter.

    believing god is an essence having a spirit led relationship with god(john4:god is spirit) was it not that leading of the spirit, that abraham obediently took isaac to be sacrificed. jesus full grace and truth lived his life according to how the spirit of god led him. having no law was abraham's relationship with god any less righteous?

    "jesus full of grace and truth" jesus relied on the leading of the spirit to show him what the father was doing.

    John 5:19
    Jesus gave them this answer: "I tell you the truth, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does.


    john 8:39 Then Jesus was led by the Spirit into the desert to be tempted by the devil.

    CONTINUED

  • Tue Feb 10, 2009 6:59 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    CONTINUED

    "Yes, and he describes an action of the sin nature in Romans 1 "



    you have still failed to address my pionts about HOMOSEXUALS DONT HAVE WOMEN AND NEVER HAVE HAD WOMEN FROM THEIR FIRST SEXUAL MEMORY TO THROUGHOUT THEIR ENTIRE LIVES. HOW CAN THEY ABANDON SOMETHING NEVER HAD. IF THEY NEVER HAD IT, THEY NEVER HAD A" USE" THAT THEY ABANDONED. THEN FOR THEM THE USE DID NOT EXIST.

    THE SAME IS TRUE OF WOMEN AS WELL.

    the whole essence of coming out of the closet is to finally stop living a life of denial of one's orientation, to openly acknowledge TO ONESELF AND SOCIETY who one is actually attracted to and has feelings for.





    "The concept that "I'm saved so I can do whatever I want" shows no understanding of our responsibility as a result of grace. It denies the power of grace as it keeps grace from producing the works consistant with it such as obedience to the Word"


    .

    living a life led by the spirit = living a life led by christ who lives in one = living a life led by the father = living a life yoked to christ (my yoke is easy and my burden is light) = living a life led by the truth revealed by holy spirit thru grace. what in this do you not get, that is one scintilla of " doing what one wants?"

    do you not get that the actual coming to christ is spirit led relationship which is also in essence an act of turning...............which is also repentence. do you not get that the grace we live under and receive that which we do not merit is a spirit led and spirit receiving relationship.

    john 6:44"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.


    again show me in scripture where " producing good fruit" has anything to do with following the law under the new covenant.

    Romans 3:20
    Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.

    the law making us aware of the possibility of sin. but it is the spirit that convicts us of what is sin, in the same way that those who came to christ were convicted of what was sin in regards to christ( in spite of the charges of the pharisees) and regardless of the law handed down for 2000 years.

  • Tue Feb 10, 2009 12:00 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe. But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

  • Tue Feb 10, 2009 11:58 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    "Adam and Eve is a parable, so while your idea is terribly romantic, its also not factual. My spirit is just as linked to my partners as my parents' spirits to one another."

    So then you call the entire New Testament a parable.

    "Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come." Romans 5:14

    "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive." I Corinthians 5:22

    "For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression" I Timothy 2:13-14


    And it's also interesting to note that we have the lineage from this "mythic" Adam all the way to Jesus.

    A person who calls Adams and Eve a parable is illinformed, doesn't know the Scriptures one bit, and is carnal.

  • Tue Feb 10, 2009 8:15 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    mike22685, according to you Adam and Eve are a parable, but according to the Word of God they were very real and by them sin came into the human race.

  • Tue Feb 10, 2009 6:24 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    Adam and Eve is a parable, so while your idea is terribly romantic, its also not factual. My spirit is just as linked to my partners as my parents' spirits to one another.

  • Mon Feb 09, 2009 11:01 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    Feet,
    It is about the spirit. Sex and marriage is a bond between to spirits. God took woman out of man, marriage and sex is the reunion of that separation. Marriage and sex between same genger people is an abomination and perversion of the way God created marriage and sex.

  • Mon Feb 09, 2009 8:39 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    Not at all what I was saying, I'll thank you to stop deliberately lying about what I said. My point, which was quite clear, is that if you read the Bible in its present form, the message has been interpreted for you (such as adding in the word homosexual when it simply was never there.)

  • Mon Feb 09, 2009 8:36 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    "If you read Romans at face value, especially the way it is today"

    So, the Bible is only correct if you look at it through the present society. Translation: hold to a form of godliness but deny it's power.

  • Mon Feb 09, 2009 8:36 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    Its a shame you insist interpreting the Bible is a bad thing. The Lord gave us a wonderful brain, you fail to use it.

  • Mon Feb 09, 2009 8:34 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    "paul says that the acts of the sin nature are obvious. by their very nature,"

    Yes, and he describes an action of the sin nature in Romans 1 when he writes about forsaking the natural function. It was OBVIOUS to Paul that homosexual sex is a sin or he wouldn't have written about it.

    Thanks for the final nail in the arguement ending the debate on if homosexuality is a sin.

  • Mon Feb 09, 2009 8:29 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    "You CANNOT read the Bible as face value or you'd miss too much"

    It's a shame your faith places your interpretation above what is clearly written. The only thing I miss by simply accepting the Bible at face value is hell.

  • Mon Feb 09, 2009 8:26 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    "And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace. "

    Starting with Jam 2:20
    "But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?
    Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar?
    You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected;
    and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS," and he was called the friend of God.
    You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.
    In the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way?
    For just as the body without {the} spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead. "

    Paul begins Romans by addressing key issues which stand in the way of grace. Often Paul writes in progressive thought meaning the verses sited in Romans are based on the assumption that what has been written before them has been accepted.

    The concept that "I'm saved so I can do whatever I want" shows no understanding of our responsibility as a result of grace. It denies the power of grace as it keeps grace from producing the works consistant with it such as obedience to the Word.

  • Mon Feb 09, 2009 8:16 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    feet, sin is sin regardless if it violates the 2nd part of the Great Commandment or not and God hates all sin. So once again if you and your church choose to sin by violating God's original and only designs for marriage and sexual intimacy go for it, but just do us all a favor and don't try to twist God's Word to justify your and your churches sin. Hopefully, before it's too late you'll see the error of your way and repent of your sin and turn to God before it's everlastingly too late. Produce all the fake looking fruit you want, but until you get saved that is all it will be a cheap imitation of the real thing. Now when you're ready to discuss the real issue and ready to quit justifying, rationalizing and beating around the bush on these matters please let us know!

  • Mon Feb 09, 2009 7:04 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    Should I agree with you? If I do, then I can murder, covet, lie, adulterate, steal, and have idols. Am I correct in assuming that you don't agree with the Levitical law?

    sure ...go ahead and do them.......... if after having law of life written on your heart and put in your mind it is your understanding, that they are not against the spirit of god.

    paul says that the acts of the sin nature are obvious. by their very nature, it is obvious they come against the spirit of god and the fruit of the spirit.

    you apparently disagree.

    gal5 :16So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature. 17For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want. 18But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law.

    apparently you disagree with paul that believers are not able to live according to the spirit.

    they will commence to murder, covet, lie, adulterate, steal, and have idols.

  • Mon Feb 09, 2009 6:47 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    there are many ways to be under the law. paul repeats himself many times "we are not under the law." there is no dispensation for being under it in one way and not another.

    sexual intimacy between married believers is approved by paul. in fact paul says not to withhold one's body from one's pardner. in spirit homosexual believing marriages are of the same devotion affection, and commitment as heterosexual believing marriages. yet according to your understanding of the law, it is not because of difference of devotion or commitment but instead, because of gender that determines the validation of marriage. it is not about anything about spirit, but instead according to the law.

    that is definitely being under the law.

    thess5:21 says test everything keep the good. if we are under the law. there is no testing there is only obedience to the law.

    jesus says by the their fruit we will recognize them. if we are under the law there is no recognizing fruit, their is only obedience to the law.

    this is the relationship to the law of the old covennat........................a covenant that is obsolete and will soon pass away.

    under the new covenant the "sons of god" are led by the spirit of god. under the new covenant we serve of the spirit.

    according to your interpretation, we are serving according to the law................we are led by our obedience to the law, as to what is and is not of sin.

    your interpretation is wrong because it denies and comes against a number of scriptures in the gospel and the epistles, including the three commandments of love.

    in your own words, we love god" by being obedient to the law", and not by being led by and serving of his spirit.

  • Mon Feb 09, 2009 6:10 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    feet,

    "how is your application of your interpretation of scripture any different from the essence of being under the law under the old covenant in the above scripture."

    Should I agree with you? If I do, then I can murder, covet, lie, adulterate, steal, and have idols. Am I correct in assuming that you don't agree with the Levitical law?

  • Mon Feb 09, 2009 5:15 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    feet, to be under the law means to be under the penalty of the law, truly born-again believers are no longer under the penalty of the law because they repented of their sin and turned to God by putting their complete faith/trust in the person and finished work of Christ alone. So when they die they will not have to pay for the penalties of their sins since Christ did that on the Cross of Calvary for them. But as Paul says that does not give us the freedom to willfully sin either by sins of omission or commission. For one to willfully violate or advocate the violation of God's original and only designs for marriage and sexual intimacy is a sin and Christians are not to sin!

  • Mon Feb 09, 2009 4:52 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    Forgivensinner

    FEEL FREE TO ADDRESS MY 8:44 COMMENT AS WELL.

  • Mon Feb 09, 2009 4:45 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Romans 2:11For there is no partiality with God. 12For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; 13for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.

  • Mon Feb 09, 2009 4:32 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    the only way your interpretation of scripture is the truth is if we are still are still under the law. if we are not, then your interpretation is wrong.

    THIS WAS WHAT MY 8:44 COMMENT WAS ABOUT, WHOSE POINTS YOU STILL HAVE NOT ADDRESSED.

  • Mon Feb 09, 2009 1:36 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

    feet, there is no need to talk to the scripture you share because you are using it as nothing but a smokescreen to keep from discussing the real issue, willfully violating God's Word in the area of marriage and sexual intimacy. God's Word is very clear in both areas and yet you and your church choose to willfully ignore God's original and only design in both these areas by saying it's all in the fruit and to obey anything other than the 2nd part of the Great Commandment is to be under the law. And as I said in my last post if you and your church choose to ignore God's Word with regards to these two issues, well knock yourselves, but please don't try to use God's Word to rationalize or justify your sins.

  • Mon Feb 09, 2009 12:36 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

    reedit scripture


    Romans 4:16
    Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham's offspring,not only to those who are of the law but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham. He is the father of us all.


    Romans 5:2
    2through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we[a] rejoice in the hope of the glory of God.

    Romans 6:14
    For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace.


    Romans 11:6
    And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.

  • Mon Feb 09, 2009 9:14 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

    feet, your rationalizing skills are getting more and more pitiful, if you and your church choose to continue violating God's Word when it comes to His original and only design for marriage and sexual intimacy, just don't try to justify it using God's Word.

    THAT'S IT. THAT IS THE LIMIT OF YOUR ADDRESSING MY SCRIPTURAL POINTS.

  • Mon Feb 09, 2009 9:11 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

    reedir


    you hold up sexual love as mere eroticism and credit it as NOTHING compared to god's love, yet condemn it as sin when another does NOTHING with the same gender.

  • Mon Feb 09, 2009 9:06 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    feet, your rationalizing skills are getting more and more pitiful, if you and your church choose to continue violating God's Word when it comes to His original and only design for marriage and sexual intimacy, just don't try to justify it using God's Word.

  • Mon Feb 09, 2009 9:06 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    eet, how is declaring God's original and only design for marriage and sexual intimacy judging. Or how is saying that people who violate those designs are sinning. If I say God calls stealing a sin is that judging or if I see someone stealing and say that person is sinning is that judging. You're once again trying to avoid the real issue which is that same-sex marriage and sexual intimacy between homosexual couples is sin in the sight of God because both violate His original and only design for marriage and sexual intimacy


    how do equate stealing, forcefully taking the property of another without consent with homosexual intimacy ............the bonding together of 2 persons of the same gender out of mutlove, trust, affection, devotion for a shared commited life together.

    it is one thing to say that someone disagrees with me about what i bellieve is a sin.it is another to say because of that the holy spirit is not in them.


    you do not earn god's righteousness, it is a gift of god by grace thru faith.

    8But what does it say? "The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,"[d] that is, the word of faith we are proclaiming: 9That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. 11As the Scripture says, "Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame."[e] 12For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."[f]


    faith..................trusting that what christ did on the cross is sufficient for your salvationPERIOD.trusting your whole life.

    as soon as you trust in doing something, you are not trusting christ but instead you are trusting YOUR own doing, your interpretation of scripture. your interpretation of justice. "it has to be this way" an attitude that is inscribed with the euphemism of "god's word"

  • Mon Feb 09, 2009 8:44 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

    numbers 15 : 32 While the Israelites were in the desert, a man was found gathering wood on the Sabbath day. 33 Those who found him gathering wood brought him to Moses and Aaron and the whole assembly, 34 and they kept him in custody, because it was not clear what should be done to him. 35 Then the LORD said to Moses, "The man must die. The whole assembly must stone him outside the camp." 36 So the assembly took him outside the camp and stoned him to death, as the LORD commanded Moses.

    how is your application of your interpretation of scripture any different from the essence of being under the law under the old covenant in the above scripture


    there is nothing sinful about gathering firewood. and there is nothing sinful about sexual intimacy between 2 adults who thru mutual love and affection and devotion for a shared committed life seal their relationship under the vows of marriage.

    yet under the old covenant it is a capital offense when done on the sabbath.

    and even under the new covenant, we have laws to be under in a similar way. you are saying the same way about sexual intimacy. that it is a sin( the same thing that is done among married HETEROSEXUALS) , even to the point of losing salvation, if it is done between same genders who are also married.

    hebrews8:7For if there had been nothing WRONG with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another.

    13By calling this covenant "new," he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.

    but pauls says under the new covernant we are led by and serve of the spirit. living according to a spirit that embraces the fruit of the spirit within ourselves and toward one another love, joy, peace, kindmess,gentleness, faithfulness.goodness, self-control,and patience.

    romans 2:1You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge the other, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things. 2Now we know that God's judgment against those who do such things is based on truth. 3So when you, a mere man, pass judgment on them and yet do the same things, do you think you will escape God's judgment? 4Or do you show contempt for the riches of his KINDNESS, TOLERANCE AND PATIENCE, not realizing that God's kindness leads you toward repentance

    because you judge, another you are DOING THE VERY SAME THINGS THAT YOU ARE ACCUSING ANOTHER OF.

    CONTINUED

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