Updated 11:59 pm.EST, Sun November 22, 2009

Church|Wed, Feb. 04 2009 03:36 PM EST

Haggard: Christian Right Off Course, Needs to Change

By Michelle A. Vu|Christian Post Reporter

Disgraced pastor Ted Haggard didn’t hold back when criticizing the Christian right during a recent interview, in which he accused the movement of acting ungospel-like and having the wrong understanding of human sexuality.

“I think the religious right is increasingly impotent right now in America,” Haggard said on ABC's World News Sunday. “And it’s going to have to return to the Gospel in order to regain strength.”

The former evangelical leader said there is a gap between evangelical leaders and the Gospel, and stressed that the real message of the Church is that Jesus came to heal imperfect humans.

“Jesus is good news, not bad news,” Haggard told ABC's Dan Harris.

He pointed out that the only thing the Christian right is proud of from this past election is the passage of Proposition 8 in California – a measure that overturned a court ruling allowing same-sex marriage. Haggard believes that's “not much to be proud of.”

Two years ago, Haggard was one of the top evangelical and Christian right leaders in America. He was president of the National Association of Evangelicals, an organization that claims to represent 30 million American Christians, and founding pastor of the more than 10,000-member New Life Church in Colorado Springs, Colo.

But a gay sex and drug scandal brought down the evangelical leader in 2006. Many had directed their criticism not only at Haggard, but at the evangelical community for its hypocrisy. Before his fall, Haggard had often publicly railed against homosexual relations.

Now after being “shunned” by the Christian right, as Haggard described his situation, his tone regarding same-sex relations has become notably softer.

Although he still does not believe that same-sex marriage is biblically permissible, he is now supportive of same-sex civil unions.

“Just as the church made a horrible mistake several centuries ago insisting that the earth is flat,” Haggard said on ABC, “I think the church may make a major mistake in our generation saying that sexuality should be this and nothing else.”

He went on, “The Church has to look at humanity realistically. We all got to humble ourselves and do everything we can to serve people in need. Not to dictate them; not to hate them; not to punish them.”

Since his fall, Haggard has expressed bitterly that he expected the Christian community to be more forgiving of his sins than they have been.

“Every time a prominent politician or religious leader falls that is our opportunity to demonstrate the Gospel to the secular world,” Haggard said during a meeting with evangelicals from New York Divinity School. “Because that is the only time they’ll show up with their cameras.”

Last November, in his first public speaking event since the scandal, Haggard disclosed that he was sexually molested by a man when he was seven and that the experience has had repercussions on his sexual identity as an adult.

The fallen pastor, who now describes himself as a "heterosexual with issues," says he still struggles with his sexuality, but that his marriage is now stronger than ever. He told CNN's Larry King in an earlier interview that he is pleased with where he is now and doesn't fear that a gay relationship could happen again. He also said he has never thought of leaving Christianity.

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  • artm »
    Thu Nov 05, 2009 11:20 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

    Mr Haggard is away from God. homosexuality is sin, calling it Marriage, or Civil union does not change that, sounds like Mr Haggard is confused.

    May God help him, me, and everyone else live according to his Word, there is no other way that God will accept.

  • Sat May 02, 2009 10:27 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 2

    and thus, Sola Scriptura confuses more and more.

  • Thu Mar 19, 2009 10:11 pm Agree: 4   Disagree: 1

    BRUISER- Christians should not vote for what they believe is sin. It makes NO sense, and sounds like you are paving the way for 'sin'. The Christian Bible says, "RIGHTEOUSNESS exalts a nation. SIN is a REPROACH to any people." The apostle Paul would not pull the lever for gay marriage, or civil unions. Civil unions are another step toward the goal of gay marriage. I hope you realize this. To vote for what is against biblical morality, etc., is NOT being salt and light in the world, and it encourages others to folloew, be comfortable in, and advance biblically defined 'sin', which is a "reproach to any people."
    That really isn't a thing Christians should be doing- helping the gay agenda out, as you seem to want to do. Read The Homosexual Agenda by Alan Sears & Craig Osten. For a gay authored book showing the agenda, keeping in mind that there are some who don't agree with all of it, is Kirk & Madsen's "After The Ball". It's out of print, but you can borrow it from a library, or buy a used copy at a used book store, or Amazon. I bought a copy from Amazon.

    MIKE- Judge not, lest you be judged' is so over used and abused it's amazing. READ the WHOLE chapter, please. The Greek word for judging is NOT only defined the way you are using it. The Greek language is a rich language and doesn't always have one word for something with a narrow definition (There are 3 words for love in Greek, for example).
    It goes on to instruct people to judge, how, under what circumstances. You CANNOT take the speak out of someone's eyes after you make sure you are dealing with your 'beam' if you don't judge in the sense of deciding right from wrong. Then later on, Jesus says to BEWARE of FALSE prophets, by their FRUIT you shall KNOW them." Please tell me how this is to be done, if we adopt your shallow misuse of that passage? You CAN'T do so. Either there's a contradiction by the NT's Jesus in the SAME chapter, or you are going to the Bible to read their feelings and desires INTO them (eisegesis) instead of drawing the actual meaning FROM them (exegesis).
    Then there's John 7:24, where the NT Jesus plainly said, "Do not judge from outward appearances, but JUDGE righteous JUDGMENT/right judgment." Have you ever read that verse? Have you ever read the whole 'don't judge' chapter- Matthew 7? How about Titus 1:9 where it instructs elders to "REFUTE those who contradict sound doctrine." How shall the church apply Jesus' own word on church discipline (Matt. 18, same chapter of the 'judge not, mind you!), and Paul's teachings on this if they use the wishy-washy opinion of how you misuse that one part of one verse? Please actually go to the Bible to see what it says for itself, and please read context, etc.

  • Thu Mar 19, 2009 10:05 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 1

    BRUISER- Christians should not vote for what they believe is sin. It makes NO sense, and sounds like you are paving the way for 'sin'. The Christian Bible says, "RIGHTEOUSNESS exalts a nation. SIN is a REPROACH to any people." The apostle Paul would not pull the lever for gay marriage, or civil unions. Civil unions are another step toward the goal of gay marriage. I hope you realize this. To vote for what is against biblical morality, etc., is NOT being salt and light in the world, and it encourages others to folloew, be comfortable in, and advance biblically defined 'sin', which is a "reproach to any people."
    That really isn't a thing Christians should be doing- helping the gay agenda out, as you seem to want to do. Read The Homosexual Agenda by Alan Sears & Craig Osten. For a gay authored book showing the agenda, keeping in mind that there are some who don't agree with all of it, is Kirk & Madsen's "After The Ball". It's out of print, but you can borrow it from a library, or buy a used copy at a used book store, or Amazon. I bought a copy from Amazon.

    MIKE- Judge not, lest you be judged' is so over used and abused it's amazing. READ the WHOLE chapter, please. It goes on to instruct people to judge, how, under what circumstances. You CANNOT take the speak out of someone's eyes after you make sure you are dealing with your 'beam' if you don't judge in the sense of deciding right from wrong. Then later on, Jesus says to BEWARE of FALSE prophets, by their FRUIT you shall KNOW them." Please tell me how this is to be done, if we adopt your shallow misuse of that passage? You CAN'T do so. Either there's a contradiction by the NT's Jesus in the SAME chapter, or you are going to the Bible to read their feelings and desires INTO them (eisegesis) instead of drawing the actual meaning FROM them (exegesis).
    Then there's John 7:24, where the NT Jesus plainly said, "Do not judge from outward appearances, but JUDGE righteous JUDGMENT/right judgment." Have you ever read that verse? Have you ever read the whole 'don't judge' chapter- Matthew 7? How about Titus 1:9 where it instructs elders to "REFUTE those who contradict sound doctrine." How shall the church apply Jesus' own word on church discipline (Matt. 18, same chapter of the 'judge not, mind you!), and Paul's teachings on this if they use the wishy-washy opinion of how you misuse that one part of one verse? Please actually go to the Bible to see what it says for itself, and please read context, etc.

  • Thu Mar 19, 2009 9:46 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    "The wages of sin is death.To support sin or encourage it is to be like taking a role in assisted suicide.one can love the sinner but not the sin ,true love will find away to use truth to encourage one away from their sinful desires all the way to letting them know of the penelties of sin."
    -----------------
    I don't disagree with your words here. Just curious though, "sinnersunited" can you tell me HOW you arrived at such an enigmatic name here on this Christian website??

    Should we unite with sin or with Christ?

  • Wed Mar 18, 2009 4:11 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 1

    With out casting judgement, The wages of sin is death.To support sin or encourage it is to be like taking a role in assisted suicide.one can love the sinner but not the sin ,true love will find away to use truth to encourage one away from their sinful desires all the way to letting them know of the penelties of sin.

  • Sat Mar 14, 2009 6:40 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

    It is obvious that Mr. Haggard has NOT repented of his sin, nor has he confessed it as such. In saying that Homosexual Marriage is not Biblically permitted, but homosexual civil unions should be is prima face evidence of his unchanged heart. The man is an Apostate, and should be treated as such. Just look at his new "freinds" the secular press, and the most liberal of the Apostate denominations.

  • Wed Feb 18, 2009 2:41 pm Agree: 3   Disagree: 1

    Seagoing populations have always known the world was round, because when a sailing vessel appears on the horizon its masts and sails becomee visible before the hull itself does. That can only happen if the world is round.

  • Sun Feb 15, 2009 8:04 am Agree: 3   Disagree: 4

    Jim, I don't think Haggard is giving anyone the finger, but I think he's seen the opposite side of the horrifically judgmental evangelical movement and realizes that civil unions hurt no one (not to mention, the Bible does not condemn them, nor does it condemn a committed gay relationship.

  • Sat Feb 14, 2009 9:05 pm Agree: 3   Disagree: 2

    Bruiser and Mike,

    When you sin against others, you are to make reconciliation with those you sin against. With Haggard in particular, he persists in sin and Paul is quite specific that an elder who reconciles not and continues in his sin should be publicly dealt with (1 Tim 5). This is not to punish but to show that there are consequences to giving the Head of the body and the other members of the body a big middle finger. It is always to bring to repentance and reconciliation, not to make an outcast permenantly.
    1 Corinthians 5 makes it clear that we are to remove the leaven or cancer from the body until it has been purified. This happens only after the steps that Jesus outlined and Paul outlined are exhausted.
    He continues in sin because he refuses to reconcile with all those he is called to reconcile with. Being a Christian means you are to take responsibility for your actions to the degree you are able because it hurts you to know you sinned against God and others. Otherwise, there is no repentance and therefore no reconciliation with God. Same with forgiveness, Jesus made sure that His disciples knew that they were to ask God to forgive them only as they forgave others (matt 6).

    If you try to democratize your life and vote to give others sanctuary so they can feel safe in their sin, you are encouraging them to sin (comfort brings more of the same actions and thoughts). Are they free to do so in the US? Sure are (if civil unions are OK'd by the people) but as His citizens (we are only visitors on this planet) we are not to vote for sinful policies and lifestyles. Personally I think the government has no role in this at all (hetero or homo) but that isn't an option to vote on. To tell someone that your union is just as valid as what is truly valid is sin yes.

    Grace and Peace,
    Jim

  • Fri Feb 13, 2009 6:54 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    Totally, what a buzz kill, huh?

  • Thu Feb 12, 2009 10:30 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    I understand, and I'm glad I'm not one of those who look for verses to allow me to judge because it gives me a power trip. People like that really annoy me.

  • Wed Feb 11, 2009 11:49 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

    I'd agree, thankfully, I'm not one of them.

  • Wed Feb 11, 2009 11:29 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

    And many people look for verses to justify their sin because they're lazy and self absorbed.

  • Wed Feb 11, 2009 8:26 pm Agree: 3   Disagree: 2

    Blackho, it was pretty fundamental to Jesus' message (he also said let he among us within sin cast the first stone.) Many of you look for verses to allow you to judge because it gives you a power trip (I think.)

  • Wed Feb 11, 2009 4:55 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    (In response to oldstudents comment) I'll try not to repeat anything that has previously been said i.e. further condemning Ted Haggard's lascivious acts. Is a jail warden said to be encouraging homosexual behaviour (sin) simply by making condoms freely available to inmates? It is a well known fact that HIV disproportionately affects prison populations with a prevalence of infection much higher than that of the general population. Because of this fact, one can argue that this proactive warden is a humanitarian rather than a sinner. In the same way, just because Mr. Haggard is in favour of civil unions for gays, does not mean that he is condoning sin (just like the warden wasn't). Mr. Haggard is obviously disillusioned with the presumptuous nature and perceived gall of his sin. Nonetheless, he does raise valid points. It wasn't wrong for him to have struggled with homosexuality. It was only when he gave in to his temptations that he became unfaithful to God- as he himself admits. According to your myopic view of this issue, everyone that voted in favour of Proposition 8 sinned when they did so. To quote you: "He is also continuing to sin by encouraging sinful behavior (civil unions) which God strictly prohibits (Romans 1)." If this is in fact what you meant, than I categorically disagree. To be sure, I am not condoning homosexuality but in a democratic society, gay marriage as well as polygamy should be de jure. We as Christians have a right to sin, or not. Every non-Christian also has this freedom of choice. We are taught to be tolerant "all the while abhorring (their) sin(s)"- Jude 1:23). May God abundantly bless all seeking his face.

  • Wed Feb 11, 2009 3:08 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    blacksho, don't forget our moderate and liberal Christian posters!

  • Wed Feb 11, 2009 2:49 pm Agree: 4   Disagree: 2

    "Do not judge lest ye be judged."

    Ah, yes. The one verse that every pagan has memorized, and quotes out of context.

  • Tue Feb 10, 2009 8:46 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 1

    But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. I Corinthians 2:15


    Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters? I Corinthians 6:2

  • Tue Feb 10, 2009 8:40 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    Do not judge lest ye be judged.

  • Tue Feb 10, 2009 8:17 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    Judging sin is not a sin either.

  • Tue Feb 10, 2009 8:08 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    Cheating on his wife was absolutely sinning. Telling Christians they judge to much is not sinning.

  • Tue Feb 10, 2009 8:07 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    But mike, according to you Ted's not sinning is he?

  • Tue Feb 10, 2009 7:15 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Vakyre, interesting that even when someone says they are sorry and have reconciled (which is between him and Jesus) you can't forgive him and encourage him to go continue sinning.

  • Tue Feb 10, 2009 12:52 pm Agree: 3   Disagree: 0

    "Become Holy or die trying!"

    Now that's the kind of attitude I like! Separate ourselves from sin. Flee temptation.

    "Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things."

  • Tue Feb 10, 2009 12:44 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

    Who in heck is Ted Haggard to be passing judgment on anybody? This is the man who stood before the world the night he got caught in his gay hooker/drugs behavior and lied without flinching. Go away, Ted, please just go away and find a dark corner somewhere to explore your "complex sexuality". You have done enough damage to Christ and the Gospel for a lifetime.

  • Tue Feb 10, 2009 12:27 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

    What truly weakens us Christians is the actions of the few. When Pastors like Haggard and other Protestant pastors or Priests in my Catholic Church do horrific things that are contrary to our beliefs it weakens all the great Pastors and Priests who tirelessly do God's work everyday for the Glory of God.

    It is the few cases, that weaken us all. The Devil loves it. When Haggard has homosexual relations and took drugs or when Priest Maciel fathered a Child out of marriage and did other things too, it brings us all down.

    Become Holy or die trying!

  • Mon Feb 09, 2009 11:36 am Agree: 4   Disagree: 1

    hmmm...I wonder why we've become impotent. Can it be that scandals like Mr. Haggard's, who say one thing but do another in secret, part of the reason? I have no problem forgiving Mr. Haggard, but he may never be restored as a Christian leader b/c of discretion. I think he is using the media as his pulpit, but instead of speaking truth, he is confusing the matter even more by supporting civil unions.
    That said, I do believe that there are other reasons besides hypocricy, that have rendered us irrelevent to most people.

  • Sat Feb 07, 2009 7:34 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    indo, well said!

  • Sat Feb 07, 2009 6:18 pm Agree: 3   Disagree: 0

    I believe that WE evangelicals have made a big mistake by politicising faith and making IDOLS of our Christian Leaders. I think it is folly to believe that the Anti-Christ will emerge from a non - Christian movement. I think we should watchout for those who seem holier than thou.....

  • Sat Feb 07, 2009 4:48 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    And that is wrong. And I pray that God would deal with him about promoting a false and dangerous doctrine for the purpose of justifying his sin and easing his conscience.

  • Sat Feb 07, 2009 4:47 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

    Reconciliation would be an act of repenting of his sin and proclaiming that he will not submit to that temptation again. Reconciliation is not saying that sin is okay and maybe we just misunderstand.

    Haggard said in this article "Haggard has expressed bitterly that he expected the Christian community to be more forgiving of his sins than they have been." That may be true. But they are still sins. And Jesus didn't come so that we could continue in sin.


    He also said "I think the church may make a major mistake in our generation saying that sexuality should be this and nothing else.”

    And that is wrong. And I pray that God will enlighten him to the false and dangerous doctrine he is spreading for the sole purpose of justifying his sin and easing his conscience.

  • Sat Feb 07, 2009 3:14 pm Agree: 4   Disagree: 3

    Romans 1 says nothing to civil unions. How do you know he has not accepted reconciliation? Were you sitting in when he and Jesus spoke? I find it so hard to believe that "Christians" like yourself feel you can make such judgments.

  • Sat Feb 07, 2009 2:45 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Pastor Jim, excellent post to mike22685 and I especially enjoyed your point about the flat earth issue.

  • Sat Feb 07, 2009 2:44 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    It seems to me that science thought the world was flat, and everyone (including Christians) just went along with it.

  • Sat Feb 07, 2009 2:29 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 0

    mike 22685,

    Haggard continues to sin by not accepting reconcilliation he vowed to do thus alienating himself from God and His church. He is also continuing to sin by encouraging sinful behavior (civil unions) which God strictly prohibits (Romans 1). He sits in the counsel seat of the wicked when he encourages this union (Psalm 1). Encouraging others to sin is sinful.

    Either Haggard is ignorant or he is lying when he said that the church believed the earth was flat centuries ago. Although commonly said by non-Christians, the evidence shows they speak falsely.

    The religious right does have much to work on (and political power is not the answer) just as the religious left has issues to deal with (usually a "people are basically good" approach that is so, so wrong).

    Haggard is correct when he says that the RR needs to refocus. It just isn't in the direction he is pointing that their attention needs to be focused on.

    Grace and Peace,
    Jim

  • Sat Feb 07, 2009 2:11 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    How has he continued to sin? As far as I know he's with his wife and working through what happened.

  • Sat Feb 07, 2009 11:46 am Agree: 4   Disagree: 1

    HAGGARD is an APOSTATE!!!! It's that simple. He now supports same-sex civil unions?? Where is that in Scripture, Ted Haggard??? He believes the "Christian Right" is impotent? He is the one who is impotent!!! He does recognize that Jesus Christ came to not only heal, but by his blood on the Cross, He died for the sins of the world. But....an important but...Haggard chose to continue in sexual sin and now he wishes to "preach" to the rest of us, when he himself still has issues??? Haggard, forsake your evil ways and come back to the Cross!!!

  • Sat Feb 07, 2009 12:49 am Agree: 5   Disagree: 0

    Leaders are chosen and required to lead by example. Ted should leave the comfort zone of the US and go to countries like India where New Life church members have been persecuted, to preach. Please don't cry persecution while living in Christian countries with all the freedoms. You just make a mockery of those who are true christian martyrs like the Orissa Christians.

  • Fri Feb 06, 2009 2:00 pm Agree: 14   Disagree: 1

    Truly what Haggard fails to see, is that true biblical repentance is
    1. First a feeling of contrition, knowing that you offended God, and it should not be mistaken with remorse.
    2. Confess your sin, whether you offended God or mankind you confess to God or to mankind.
    3. Accept the consequences of your sin, this is paramount, since God forgives the Sin, but whatever we sow we shall harvest, Haggard sinned but even though he says he has repented does not shows a attitude of contrition and humility. I believe Haggard should retire completely from public life and wait for the work of repentance to be completed in his life, if you sinned in such a way you cannot expect sympathy and good will from everyone, is natural that he would be judged, criticized and rejected, but if you accept that with a contrite heart, knowing that the Lord will not cast off forever; for though He causes grief, yet He will have pity according to the multitude of His kindness, If he would be truly repented his attitude would as David in 2 Samuel 16:10-12, "Let them curse, because the LORD has said to him, Curse Ted. Who then shall say, Why have you done so? ..... It may be that the Lord will look on my affliction and that the LORD will repay me with good for this cursings this day." Is recognizing your actions are the ones that provoked this umpleaseant situation, trying to justify or relieve your pain with this remarks, would do nothing but become an obstacle to the work of the spirit of repentance.

  • Fri Feb 06, 2009 1:39 pm Agree: 10   Disagree: 1

    Father Fleming said: "All who call Christ their savior and try to live their lives as He taught are Christians."

    Not everyone who "calls themselves a Christian" or "acts like a Christian" is a Christian - Matt.7:21-23, "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father wheich is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you; depart from me, ye that work iniquity." 2 Cor. 11:14-15 says,"And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works."

    If one were not a true Christian, "acting" like one would get you nowhere. Many sincere, seemingly good men will be lost in the end if they have not believed and accepted Christ as their personal Savior.

  • Fri Feb 06, 2009 12:59 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 2

    I have enjoyed reading all the posts. You would think by the range of comments that Ted can't be forgiven by God, he has been , to others, he will never raise his head out of the sin he was allowed himself to get involved with, he will. I feel sorrow whenever a high profile Christian falls, as should the entire Christian church. These people get beat-up, there reputation is shot, in some Christians eyes it’s as if they have lost there salvation, he has not! I attend Open Bible Fellowship in Morrison, Ill. and was in attendance the day that Ted spoke. I didn't hear any of these terrible things people say he said that day. He spoke humbly, the points he brought up about New life Church were not mean spirited. If a parishioner within that same church had done the same thing, they wouldn't have been kicked out on the street the way Ted was, there would have been compassion for him but because it was the head pastor, he is removed from the pulpit and not allowed to set foot in the church. Should Ted have been removed from the pulpit, yes, should he have been prevented from entering New Life Church again, absolutely not! The Elders and Lay people should have gathered around him and supported him through his sin. We live in a sin filled world, Ted’s sin is no more or no less evil than everyone of our sins, He just happened to be a high profile position.

  • Fri Feb 06, 2009 12:06 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 5

    Haggard and other professing Christian leaders would do well to read "God and the Gays"
    http://www.davidbenariel.org/god-gays/

  • Fri Feb 06, 2009 9:39 am Agree: 15   Disagree: 2

    Have you noticed how much activity there is in a forum when the subject of sex is the topic? Haggard needs attention, and he will stay in the limelight as long as there are people who stay glued to what he says. We saw the same thing in Jimmy Swaggart, Jim Baker, and the list goes on and on and still grows every week.

    There is nothing productive or worth while in what haggard says. Haggard needs the applause and attention and it;s clear he was not willing to take the time to heal and become humble and be lifted by Christ and His healing touch. Haggard said he was changed and he is all ok now. Haggard became his own healer,and he still bleeds all over the place, and shames Christ. Haggard demands he sit at the head of the table, rather than taken a seat in the back, and allowing others the see the change and ask him to the head of the table.

    We all have sin and need to focus on our own lives. However, we who see Haggard as causing more harm than good, we have not been removed from spiritual leadership. There is a huge difference. Haggard is unteachable, and is not worth this attention.

  • Fri Feb 06, 2009 6:16 am Agree: 4   Disagree: 3

    His statement wasn't anti-biblical. There are many who can spout off verse by verse and then sit at home condemning everything as sin, but they have no idea how to actually live the message of love from Jesus. I know many Catholics who are wonderful people, share Christs love with every person they meet, can tell you about Christ's working in the Bible, but would have no idea what verse or chapter its from, and THAT part is not necessary to be a good Christian.

  • Fri Feb 06, 2009 12:07 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 3

    "This is often the result of ignorance about the real beliefs of a particular denomination, but it is rooted in the narrow "Bible only" mentality of evangelicals which, in itself, is un-Christian . . ."

    Can't get much more anti-biblical than that statement. No wonder Catholics are becoming more and more irrelevant all the time.

  • Thu Feb 05, 2009 7:04 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    Gone so quick, Father? I hope you will check back and address what I have asked.
    (PS I wasn't the one who gave your post a thumbs down).

  • Thu Feb 05, 2009 6:31 pm Agree: 4   Disagree: 1

    "Also from among yourselves men will rise up, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after themselves." Act 20:30

    Father F, your statement "attacking other Christians as unbiblical, false or worse, depending on their denomination" leads me to believe you are saying Christians should allow false teachings to be accepted and not rebuked. Is this what you are meaning to say?

  • Thu Feb 05, 2009 6:21 pm Agree: 3   Disagree: 0

    great to catch you Father F

    I asked you earlier and received no reply, do you believe there is salvation outside of the Roman Catholic Church? Although your post states that ALL who call on Christ are Christians doesn't the Catholic church condemn these because they are not in the membership of the 'one true church'?

  • Thu Feb 05, 2009 6:10 pm Agree: 6   Disagree: 5

    "What a guy, he accepts God's forgiveness, through
    the blood on Jesus Christ, and then uses it to try to
    make fellow belivers look bad."

    I've seen many Christians on this site commit the same sin as Haggard, attacking other Christians as unbiblical, false or worse, depending on their denomination. This mostly comes from evangelicals, like Haggard and the target is usually the Catholicism, though many other non-evangelical denominations - believers - are also taken to task.

    This is often the result of ignorance about the real beliefs of a particular denomination, but it is rooted in the narrow "Bible only" mentality of evangelicals which, in itself, is un-Christian when it is used to divide believers. All who call Christ their savior and try to live their lives as He taught are Christians. These denominations couldn't have survived all these centuries were it not so.

    St Peter called for unity among Christians. We would be wise to heed his call instead of playing the "my church is better than your church" game.

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Joolwe :
Cross-pendant necklace
Bethany House Publishers

It was a balmy California evening. I had gone for a jog before I was to speak at a leadership conference. I still can't recall how I got there, but I found myself sitting on a curb

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