Billy Graham Association Makes 'End Times' a Focus in 2009

Online4Him »

Mon Feb 16, 2009 4:02 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

Dr_Nofog,

Yes, I am aware of your earlier post and what it said . . . Sorry, I should have asked if you thought there were any OTHER prophecies other than the one we are discussing that need to be fulfilled . . .

Well, like I said, earlier . . . we will have to agree to disagree; Daniel 9:27 does not mention anything about a rebuilt temple or the antichrist . . . nor does it give us any reason to place this last week into the future . . .


Have a safe trip . . .

Dr_Nofog »

Mon Feb 16, 2009 2:28 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

Online-
You say "So, I take it that you believe there are no further prophecies to be fulfilled".

Dude, You're starting to scare me with your reading retention... My 1st post: "The 70th "week" is still future." & "In some of their more candid moments, **opponents** of literal interpretation admit that if our approach is followed, then it does correctly lead to ***dispensational theology***." & why would I give you these: 16 Proofs of a Pre-Tribulation Rapture, http://www.rapturealert.com/sixteenproofs.html, & this: "both Daniel & Jesus call it the "holy place" & Jesus spoke of it as yet future. Matthew 24:15", "the nearest antecedent is the [Roman] "prince that ***shall come***" vs.26" [still future], "3. Remember, "blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in." Rom. 11:25 They won't recognize Him til his foot touches the Mount of Olives, Zech.14:4 "and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him" Zech. 12:10" [still future]...
I mentioned "the 'Consummation', which throughout all the OT , unlike your understanding, means the restoration of true 'Israel' and their Kingdom" and asked how you reconcile [unanswered yet] the fact that the Jews were shocked here: "Why did Jesus break all Jewish traditional reading of their 'vengeful' hope "all eyes fastened on Him" by deliberately ending & separating Isaiah 61 at 2a, His 1st coming, separating 2000 yrs for His 2nd coming at 2b & all the following vs?"[of Isaiah that go on to describe]...the Hope of all Israel has always been: the Day of the Lord to restore the Davidic Kingdom over the whole earth with Messiah on the throne, & the subjection of all Gentile kingdoms.
I also mentioned that I have had a keen interest for over 40yrs in *projected* middle-east & world events that appear to be clearly & neatly inter-woven with prophesies written 2k-4k yrs ago, which, by definition, classifies them as ETP...
That looks like a lot of prophecies I listed as yet to be fulfilled...

I also asked: "So again, how long have you been comparing views?" so I could better understand where you're coming from.
But, alas, I'm packing right now, I'll be off-line, out in the boonies for a week, so hold that thot...

LouNorWan »

Mon Feb 16, 2009 3:39 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

In Sam Shoemaker's book "Under New Management" (p. 72) Billy Graham referred to the increase in house churches and stated "Perhaps the Holy Spirit is getting His church ready for a trial and tribulation such as the world has never known." And "Letter from Mrs. Billy Graham" (on Google) is interesting also. Guess we must be ready for about anything. LouNorWan

Online4Him »

Sun Feb 15, 2009 6:10 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

Dr_Nofog,

Ok, I am with you . . . now that you have given the definitions for these abbreviations. I should probably cut and paste these so I could decipher your posts . . . lol . . . . just kidding. Historicism teaches that biblical revelations are being fulfilled throughout history and continue to be fulfilled today. Yes, I do believe that there are prophecies yet to be fulfilled. So, I take it that you believe there are no further prophecies to be fulfilled, is that right? As for the last week of Daniel 9:27 . . . historically, that week has not been applied to the antichrist . . . again, where do we read that the antichrist will fulfill THE covenant . . . this is a messianic term that applies to the Messiah. Do you know how and where the futurist position came to be?

Dr_Nofog »

Sun Feb 15, 2009 5:23 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

[Sorry, #*&@hidden control character again]
WW3-Islam-The Fate of Islam in Bible Prophecy.doc - - Some funny stuff out there off the web - but, you get the idea...

You say "I subscribe to the Historicist position...I am not a Preterist." And; "the current sign posts...Hints of a coming new world order have been publicly hinted...surely we are moving in that direction." This seems to indicate that you are still expecting 'predicted events'. I would have you pegged as RT unless Historicist is not just a new-name repackaging or offshoot.
So does that mean that you believe that there are prophecies yet to be fulfilled? -other than the final biggee, the Great White Throne Judgment & the New Heaven, New Earth?

From my best recollection, I don't recall that the Hebrew supports parsing of 9:26-27 in that manner. It runs linear: "And after [69] weeks [1.] shall Messiah be cut off...[2.] the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city...[3.] and the end...a flood...desolations are determined [upon Israel for 2000 yrs]...[4.] and then, "he shall confirm the covenant...one week" [#70].
That a lot of stuff that pops 69 & 70 apart and the only reconciliation is to go to the NT to see what the HS says what happened...Rom. 9-11, the secret of the "ekklesia", the Assembly, hidden from the foundation, & Revelation.
Also, I could possibly buy into some of the disputed date fudge-factoring from Cyrus to move Jesus's Palm-day presentation to Israel as Messiah back to His baptism to include His 3.5 yrs ministry, but then to reach out to what, straws for the last 3.5yrs?
Since I cannot find any specific prophecies mentioning this Stephen incident, I can only conclude that someone stayed up very late one nite & had a deep, deep sea fishing expedition!

Dr_Nofog »

Sun Feb 15, 2009 5:16 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

I thot a lot of these were common knowledge; PTR =PreTribRapture[ist], RT=Replacement Theology[ist] AKA Amillennialists who eventually disliked the stigma & now call it/themselves by it, ES=Eternal Security, ETA=EndTimeApostacy, ETP=EndTimeProphecy, etc,

The prefixes also make a great file sort tool so I don't have to have 500 directories ["folders" for post-DOS Windows users]. I can have a few general topic folders:
CompuHard&SoftWare
Doctrine
NWO911OKC
-etc. & the multiple files of the same topics will automatically group into their respective sub-topics:
1984-FBI taps cell phone mic as eavesdropping tool.rtf
ES-Doctrine Of Eternal Security-& Its Key Passage.doc
ETA-Most Christians Define Their Own Theology.doc
ETP-Prophecy Verifies The Authenticity Of The Bible.doc
EU asks US for greater role on world stage.doc
EU-UK defence minister supports EU army.doc
GC-N. Korea enraged by launch of Gospel gas balloons.doc
Ju3-The Bible And False Teachers.doc
PTR-2Days-After two days, He will revive us.txt
RT-The Millennium-When Will It Come -a Zionist Plot.txt
RT-The Teaching Of A Millennial Reign -a Catholic Plot.txt
WW3-Islam-The Fate of Islam in Bible Prophecy.doc - - Some funny stuff out there off the web – but, you get the idea...

You say "I subscribe to the Historicist position...I am not a Preterist." And; "the current sign posts...Hints of a coming new world order have been publicly hinted...surely we are moving in that direction." This seems to indicate that you are still expecting 'predicted events'. I would have you pegged as RT unless Historicist is not just a new-name repackaging or offshoot.
So does that mean that you believe that there are prophecies yet to be fulfilled? -other than the final biggee, the Great White Throne Judgment & the New Heaven, New Earth?

From my best recollection, I don't recall that the Hebrew supports parsing of 9:26-27 in that manner. It runs linear: "And after [69] weeks [1.] shall Messiah be cut off...[2.] the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city...[3.] and the end...a flood...desolations are determined [upon Israel for 2000 yrs]...[4.] and then, "he shall confirm the covenant...one week" [#70].
That a lot of stuff that pops 69 & 70 apart and the only reconciliation is to go to the NT to see what the HS says what happened...Rom. 9-11, the secret of the "ekklesia", the Assembly, hidden from the foundation, & Revelation.
Also, I could possibly buy into some of the disputed date fudge-factoring from Cyrus to move Jesus's Palm-day presentation to Israel as Messiah back to His baptism to include His 3.5 yrs ministry, but then to reach out to what, straws for the last 3.5yrs?
Since I cannot find any specific prophecies mentioning this Stephen incident, I can only conclude that someone stayed up very late one nite & had a deep, deep sea fishing expedition!

Online4Him »

Fri Feb 13, 2009 4:24 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

Dr_Nofog,

Can you kindly spell out what you are referring to instead of using abbreviations like PTR, ETP, RT, etc . . . it would make it much easier to understand; thanks. I agree that these things are interwoven together . . . I was just trying to discuss these things in segments if you will so that it would be easier to discuss. I am familiar with the entire 490 year prophecy . . . beginning in 457 B.C (the Command to rebuild Jerusalem . . . fast forward some 483 years brings us to 27 A.D. to (the anointing of the Messiah) which leaves us with the last prophetic week . In the middle of this week (seven literal years) . . . the Messiah is to be cut off (crucified) in 31 A.D. . . . The gospel is preached to the Jews until the stoning of Stephen in 34 A.D. . . . . The gospel then goes the gentles. In my last four posts to churchmouse . . . you can see what I posted regarding the consummation.

Dr_Nofog »

Fri Feb 13, 2009 3:56 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

Online-
"...quite the overview." -Dude, not hardly the whole thing at all...
So again, how long have you been comparing views?...and...what exactly bothers you about the PTR???
You say '...one subject at a time?' & 'we have already discussed our positions on the 70th week'. Show me again, I must have missed that. I think it should be obvious that these subjects are a lot more interwoven - not a cut & dry -70th back then or future out there, apart from the 'connective tissue' issues.

We know by accurate Hebrew reckoning that from Cyrus, 483 *literal* years have transpired to the approx. time "shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself". Show me your version of the rest of Daniel's literal 7 yrs...and I mean a *literal* 7 yr. time frame to the 'Consummation', which throughout all the OT , unlike your understanding, means the restoration of true 'Israel' and their Kingdom ... And therein is the rift of ETP.
So what exactly happened?

Online4Him »

Thu Feb 12, 2009 11:41 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

Dr_Nofog,

That was quite the overview . . . I am not tying to avoid any subject here but can we try to discuss one subject at a time? We may be able to accomplish much more if we choose this method of study . . . we have already discussed our positions on the 70th week; I believe it immediately follows the 69th week and you believe it is someplace in the future; what do you wish to discuss next (Israel and the church; the antichrist; the rapture; the temple)?

Dr_Nofog »

Wed Feb 11, 2009 10:58 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

#*&@hidden control character again, Pt.3, Now I've been to RT sites every now & then [just to keep tabs on what the enemy is doing -Bwaaa ha ha] and *some* of them actually go into hissyfits with articles, tirades actually, condemning "conspiracy theorists" of being in league with Satan, slandering & "speaking evil" of *good* people & dignitaries, spreading damnable lies & heresies, and calling on them to repent of this evil delusion. Of course, that piqued my investigative nature so I poked around a little bit and I made a rather astounding discovery: they *must* reject & deny easily verifiable facts of history because their RT eschatology will not allow them to overlay literal prophecy on real history & follow it to its obvious, logical conclusion, -that Daniel's [NWO] image looms taller than ever now, that the prophecies & promises were for *Daniel's* people 9:24 & the *children* of Daniel's people 12:1, Rom. 9:4-5, 11:12, 11:25-29 esp.29 [-can anyone say *IRREVOCABLE* here], Israel is not the Church, the land is prepared [Ezek. 38:8], they are coming back, albeit without life yet Ezek. 37, God *IS* beginning to close the church age, firing up Daniel's 70th week, AKA the time of *Jacob's* trouble [not the church's], and is going to purge His chosen people in preparation for full restoration of the promise and the land. Rom. 9-11.
Oh, the horror of that thought...we are not Israel, just that plain old bride...bummer!

BTW, I just caught your post...and your question...and how long did you say you've been comparing views again? You should already know that answer... Does what we call ourselves, PreMil, PreTrib Rapturists give a clue or do you just want it straight from the horse's mouth? It starts exactly 7yrs before the Kingdom is set up, but it can't start until the Bride is safely removed from the earth...even the New Agers know that, however, they have a different take on it... Hey, you really should take a look at that last link I gave. [http://www.rapturealert.com/defendingpretrib.asp] It's one page, not along one, and even I pick up a new nugget; that Paul was not speaking from revelation in 1 Thess. 4:15, but was actually quoting Isaiah 26.

Dr_Nofog »

Wed Feb 11, 2009 10:49 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

Pt.3, Now I've been to RT sites every now & then [just to keep tabs on what the enemy is doing -Bwaaa ha ha] and *some* of them actually go into hissyfits with articles, tirades actually, condemning “conspiracy theorists” of being in league with Satan, slandering & “speaking evil” of *good* people & dignitaries, spreading damnable lies & heresies, and calling on them to repent of this evil delusion. Of course, that piqued my investigative nature so I poked around a little bit and I made a rather astounding discovery: they *must* reject & deny easily verifiable facts of history because their RT eschatology will not allow them to overlay literal prophecy on real history & follow it to its obvious, logical conclusion, -that Daniel's [NWO] image looms taller than ever now, that the prophecies & promises were for *Daniel's* people 9:24 & the *children* of Daniel's people 12:1, Rom. 9:4-5, 11:12, 11:25-29 esp.29 [-can anyone say *IRREVOCABLE* here], Israel is not the Church, the land is prepared [Ezek. 38:8], they are coming back, albeit without life yet Ezek. 37, God *IS* beginning to close the church age, firing up Daniel's 70th week, AKA the time of *Jacob's* trouble [not the church's], and is going to purge His chosen people in preparation for full restoration of the promise and the land. Rom. 9-11.
Oh, the horror of that thought...we are not Israel, just that plain old bride...bummer!

BTW, I just caught your post...and your question...and how long did you say you've been comparing views again? You should already know that answer... Does what we call ourselves, PreMil, PreTrib Rapturists give a clue or do you just want it straight from the horse's mouth?
It starts exactly 7yrs before the Kingdom is set up, but it can't start until the Bride is safely removed from the earth...even the New Agers know that, however, they have a different take on it... Hey, you really should take a look at that last link I gave. [http://www.rapturealert.com/defendingpretrib.asp] It's one page, not along one, and even I pick up a new nugget; that Paul was not speaking from revelation in 1 Thess. 4:15, but was actually quoting Isaiah 26.

Online4Him »

Wed Feb 11, 2009 7:51 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

Dr_Nofog,

I understand . . . there have been times when I became frustrated and that has occasionally spilt over into my post. I do pray that you will be able to get back to work soon . . . lets continue to pray as we continue this discussion and I do thank you for sharing your background. I too am a former member of the RCC . . . a family member suggested that I read the Scriptures and compare it with Church teaching. Well, you could say, the rest is history . . . that was about 25 years ago and about 20 years since I left the church to embrace the true gospel of grace.

The good thing about familiarizing ourselves with the major views of eschatology is . . . it is highly probable that one or the other will occur. I am not here to impose anything . . . I am just sharing and comparing eschatological views. By the way; I subscribe to the Historicist position . . . I am not a Preterist. The *Consummation*: The Commentaries that I have suggest the consummation to be the end of that which was to come upon the Jewish nation. This seems to fit the context of these passages: 70 weeks are determined upon THY PEOPLE (Daniel 9:24). I know we have covered quite a bit already but lets see if we can discuss one subject at a time; now, according to the futurist position . . . when does the beginning of the (seven year tribulation period) begin?

Dr_Nofog »

Wed Feb 11, 2009 5:20 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

In coming out of the RCC & accepting Jesus for salvation, I began hearing foreign terms & concepts like "rapture", "tribulation", & "millennial kingdom", which seemed illogical & preposterous according to the vacuum of theology that I had been raised in, especially since it runs contrary to the RCs early church father's **traditions**. After a while I got a highly recommended, hot off the press textbook - "Things To Come" by J. Dwight Pentecost, which on preview, we're talking almost 2 inches thick, I determined to defeat line by line. After many RC & Protestant books to the contrary, I could not defeat his clear exposition of the Prophetic time-line contained in the Word of God. I stand now, after almost 40 yrs of seeing it all come to pass **exactly** as it was foretold, more firmly, more proudly on His absolute, inerrant, unfailing Word!

Now God does seem to be a fan of the down payment principle. Since the 30 some-odd prophecies were fulfilled exactly, literally, to the letter in His 1st coming, since Jesus spoke of things in the Law & Prophets as literal & the apostles taught it the same, why would anyone question that God would not fulfill the remaining 300 in like manner?!? Is it because 2000 yrs is too long a time to the *Consummation*? Or is it something else, possibly more sinister? [Yes, you used it incorrectly. The establishment of the Millennial Kingdom *is* the Consummation.]

Dr_Nofog »

Wed Feb 11, 2009 5:06 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

I apologize for going short on you...a little stress from being out of work for awhile & from watching the machinations of our Illegal-Alien-in-Chief... [a picture-perfect preview of how our complicit *media* will present the anti-Christ to the world when he's revealed!] And from past experience with people who troll forums for doubtful disputations, who act like they have answered your question by positing more questions. I hope you're legitimate in searching for understanding of the truth rather than trying to persuade me since there are many sites that have excellent articles on these topics [http://www.rapturealert.com/defendingpretrib.asp].

A little back-ground, for what it's worth... My father started me on political history when I came home from Jr. high one day spewing Marxist propaganda from my *math* teacher's tirade on current events at the time. Needless to say, we weren't being taught math that day... When one reads carefully documented research of people writing 2 & 3 generations before me, naming names & events and projecting where it looks like we're headed, -like our Founding Father's said in the Declaration of Independence, after a long list of indictments against King Geo. -"Hey, this reeks of a **design** for tyranny!" I may have paraphrased that alittle bit... And when one looks around at then-current events & sees many projected things already firmly in place, with more on the horizon...And when a Protestant friend opens a Bible & shows me Daniel & Revelations, I can tell u that I was brought to salvation when I realized that all I had learned about the NWO was predicted in **precise detail** in the Bible 2000-3000 yrs ago, not vague, mystic wordings like that Nostrildamnass character...Only a real God can tell the future like that & I needed to be on His side!

Online4Him »

Wed Feb 11, 2009 12:03 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

Churchmouse,

You said, (That would make you believe also that the "people" (the Romans) belonged to Christ. ??????)

Here the Lord refers to Cyrus as his anointed . . . the Lord throughout history has often used a foreign power to punish his people.

Thus saith the LORD to his anointed, to Cyrus, whose right hand I have holden, to subdue nations before him; and I will loose the loins of kings, to open before him the two leaved gates; and the gates shall not be shut; (Isaiah 45:1).

Online4Him »

Tue Feb 10, 2009 11:54 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

The text says, (And the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary). In the past, this has been consistently applied to the destruction of Jerusalem and the second temple by Roman armies led by PRINCE Titus in A.D. 70.

Jesus told the disciples the following: And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the DESOLATION thereof is nigh (Luke 21:20).

And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down (Matthew 24:1, 2).

Online4Him »

Tue Feb 10, 2009 11:47 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

Churchmouse,

And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the CONSUMMATION, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate (Daniel 9:27).

Even until the CONSUMMATION [which occurred 40 years later when the Roman armies led by Titus finally burned the Temple to the ground and killed approximately one million Jews.

Online4Him »

Tue Feb 10, 2009 11:42 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

The unbelieving Jews had rejected the ultimatum contained in the 70 week prophecy, and their destruction and scattering in 70 A.D was the result. Still, there has been no reason given FOR the gap theory . . . hypothetically speaking . . . when does it suppose to begin?

churchmouse »

Tue Feb 10, 2009 11:25 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

Online4him wrote:

The stated focus of this prophecy is the Messiah, not the antichrist. After the Messiah is (cut off) (referring to Christs death), the text says, (And the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary). In the past, this has been consistently applied to the destruction of Jerusalem and the second temple by Roman armies led by Prince Titus in A.D. 70.

Online4him, If the Messiah is the 'prince that shall come' as you say, that would make you believe also that the "people" (the Romans) belonged to Christ. ??????

Dr. Nofog gave you the best interpretation if you'll pause to consider it carefully:

We know that the "he" of Dan. 9:27 is the Beast, not Messiah, because the nearest *****ANTECEDENT**** is the [Roman] "prince that shall come" vs.26 & it was the [Roman] "people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary [in 70AD]...

(empahsis mine)

churchmouse »

Tue Feb 10, 2009 11:12 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

One logical way of looking at the "gap" :

If the last "week" of Daniel 9:26-27 *immediantly follows* the 69th, then the city and the sanctuary *would have been destroyed* WITHIN 7 years after the crucifixion *instead of* almost 40 years LATER in 70ad.

Online4Him »

Tue Feb 10, 2009 6:17 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

DrNofog,

Lets try to stick to the topic at hand instead of resorting to sarcasm, shall we? Im sure we can have a respectful discussion here . . . if anything; at least we can agree to disagree . . . agreeably. Now, I agree that precept must be upon precept . . . line upon line; here a little and there a little (Isaiah 28:10).

I find it interesting that you say that I have not addressed any connective tissue when I specifically addressed the actual passages in question. Also, you may choose to dismiss the well-respected Bible scholars but as I mentioned earlier . . . the vast majority throughout church history do not accept the new futurist position. Do you even know how this new alternative interpretation came to be and where it came from? You stated, (So...what's your real game here?) . . . for me; this is no game . . . I am merely discussing what these passages may mean and what others have said about them.

If we are not to take the literalist interpretation for Daniel 9:27 . . . then, one can introduce just about anything they wish. We can actually tackle any one of these subjects one at a time, if you wish: the gap theory, the rebuilt temple, the antichrist, the antichrists covenant and the seven-year tribulation theory. How about this gap theory (the 2,000 years between the 69th and 70th week) . . . how did you come to this conclusion? Your previous answer, (Yea, really?) did not remotely answer the question. The 2,000 years that you mentioned between his first coming and his 2nd coming does not give an explanation for cutting off and tossing the70th week into the future . . . at least not from Daniel 9:27.

So, again, how did you come to this (gap theory) conclusion?

Dr_Nofog »

Tue Feb 10, 2009 7:06 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 4

Online4Him
>"Honestly..." -In sales, they tell you not to use words like "frankly, honestly, to be honest with you" since there's a lot of psychology that would suggest that you haven't been so far. Is that your insinuation?

>"...thats a lot to interpret from that single verse..." Cute! [not!]...
-From my 1st time here & what you've posted today you're obviously well-read enough to know your own position, the pre-mil, pre-trib position, & that believers don't build a doctrine on a single verse. ["For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept..."]

>"...especially when Daniel 9:27 says absolutely nothing about any seven-year tribulation, antichrist, or rebuilt Jewish temple!"

-And since some of your 'heavy hitters', previously quoted, **honestly** admit the obvious conclusions of a literal interpretation, and since you have obviously attempted to slip past & not address any of the 'connective tissue', the multiple verses I gave that flesh out Daniel, esp. Jesus's expansion that destroys your Messiah conjecture... ["...line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little"...Isaiah 28:10.], You might want to read this before we continue: http://bible-prophecy-today.blogspot.com/2008/11/run-forrest-run.html, as your comments seem intended to be both dismissive & derisive.
So...what's your real game here?

"...vast majority of well-respected Bible scholars..." -Back in 68, Dr. Stuart Crane [RIP] former head of Bob Jones U. Biz.Admin.Dept. in his classic 6hr seminar "Proofs of a Conspiracy" said "Anytime you find yourself on the side of the majority, get out - You're wrong!" It's been an excellent guiding principle all these years...

>"Logic also requires that the 70th week follow immediately after the 69th week...It is illogical to insert a 2,000-year gap between the 69th and 70th week."

-Yea, really? Isaiah 40:13 "Who hath directed the Spirit of the LORD, or being his counselor hath taught him?" By man's 'logic'? 1 Cor.2:14?

If this is "illogical" & uncommon in scripture, pray tell me then...Why did Jesus break all Jewish traditional reading of 'vengeful' hope "all eyes fastened on Him" by deliberately ending & separating Isaiah 61 at 2a, His 1st coming, separating 2000 yrs for His 2nd coming at 2b & all the following vs?

Online4Him »

Mon Feb 09, 2009 7:05 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

Many of the views which are being promoted today (futurism/dispensationalism) are relatively new to the church . . . from the early church fathers to the reformers we see a consistent historic testimony regarding the things that we are discussing. Many of them saw the (temple of God) as the church itself . . . I can post some of their quotes but I am sure that you are aware of this; if not, I will share this one:

Matthew Henry on 2Thessalonians 2:4: As God was in the temple of old, and worshipped there, and is in and with his church now, so the antichrist here mentioned is some usurper of Gods authority in the Christian church . . .

The stated focus of this prophecy is the Messiah, not the antichrist. After the Messiah is (cut off) (referring to Christs death), the text says, (And the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary). In the past, this has been consistently applied to the destruction of Jerusalem and the second temple by Roman armies led by Prince Titus in A.D. 70.

He shall confirm the covenant. Paul said (the covenant) was (confirmed before by God in Christ) (Galatians 3:17). Jesus Christ came (to confirm the promises made to the fathers) (Romans 15:8). Daniel 9:27 doesnt say (a covenant) or peace treaty, but (THE covenant), which applies to the New Covenant. Nowhere in the Bible does the antichrist make, confirm, or break a covenant with anyone. The word (covenant) is Messianic, and ALWAYS applies to the Messiah, not the antichrist.

If we follow what many are suggesting today . . . Not that I believe this view but for the sake of our discussion . . . Where is the temple? Who is the beast? When does the 7 year tribulation begin? Most futurists that I know cannot answer these questions. The best that I have heard is . . . it is still future; which, again, makes this prophecy unverifiable.

Online4Him »

Mon Feb 09, 2009 7:04 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

DrNofog,

And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease (Daniel 9:27).

Honestly, thats a lot to interpret from that single verse, especially when Daniel 9:27 says absolutely nothing about any seven-year tribulation, antichrist, or rebuilt Jewish temple!

This may be surprising to hear, but historically, the vast majority of well-respected Bible scholars have not applied Daniel 9:27 to a seven-year period of tribulation at all. Neither have they interpreted the (he) as referring to a future antichrist (as many do today). Instead, they applied it to Jesus Christ. Heres a statement from a book called, Christ and Antichrist, published in 1846 by the Presbyterian Board of Publication in Philadelphia. On page 2, under Recommendations, are endorsements from many Presbyterian, Methodist, and Baptist ministers, including an official representative of the Southern Baptist Convention. Commenting on the final week of Daniel 9:27, that ancient volume states:

sometime during the remaining seven, he [the Messiah] was to die as a sacrifice for sin, and thus bring in (everlasting righteousness). Here are allusions to events so palpable, that one would think, the people among whom they occurred, could not possibly have misapplied the prophecy.

Logic also requires that the 70th week follow immediately after the 69th week. If it doesnt, then it cannot properly be called the 70th week! It is illogical to insert a 2,000-year gap between the 69th and 70th week. No hint of a gap is found in the prophecy itself. There is no gap between the first seven weeks and the following sixty-two weeks, so why insert one between the 69th and 70th week?

Dr_Nofog »

Mon Feb 09, 2009 5:13 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 2

An excellent article: WHAT? ME WORRY? http://www.rapturealert.com/whatmeworry.html

"Why would reasonable, intelligent people spend their valuable time and money trying to persuade others that Jesus is coming soon and that they need to be prepared?"

Dr_Nofog »

Mon Feb 09, 2009 4:50 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 3

1. The past temples "of God" had to be built 1st before God would sanctify it by His word or presence...In this case by His prophetic word because both Daniel & Jesus call it the "holy place" & Jesus spoke of it as yet future. Matthew 24:15
2. Yes they will, but they're just picking up the best they know where they left off. We know they will be because the Beast will stop it in the middle of the Tribulation. We know that the "he" of Dan. 9:27 is the Beast, not Messiah, because the nearest antecedent is the [Roman] "prince that shall come" vs.26 & it was the [Roman] "people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary [in 70AD]... The one who "cause[s] the sacrifice and the oblation to cease" cannot be Messiah because Jesus explains the prophecy as "standing where it ought not" [the holy place] Mark 13:14 & instead of the Jews coming to worship Him, He warns them "then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains" [Rev.12:6].
3. Remember, "blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in." Rom. 11:25 They won't recognize Him til his foot touches the Mount of Olives, Zech.14:4 "and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him..." Zech. 12:10

Online4Him »

Mon Feb 09, 2009 3:31 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

believer1348,

Amen . . . I agree.

believer1348 »

Mon Feb 09, 2009 3:12 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 0

We should all be excited about the internet chatter concerning the end-times. It has increased exponentially because we are sensing that Christ's return is very, very close!

Anyway I see alot of people posting and saying that "no man knows the day nor the hour" and that is true BUT the rest of that scripture says that we who are "looking" or "watching"will not be taken by surprize. We can KNOW the season. The "thief in the night" phrase is for those who are "asleep" and not paying attention to the signs.

Online4Him »

Mon Feb 09, 2009 2:23 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

DrNogfog,

Q: How can a rebuilt Jewish temple be referred to as the temple of God . . . the Jews would resume their animal sacrificial system . . . which in turn would be a complete denial of Christs atoning sacrifice?

Dr_Nofog »

Mon Feb 09, 2009 2:14 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

Confirming The Sequence Of End Times Events:
http://bible-prophecy-today.blogspot.com/2008/11/confirming-sequence-of-end-times-events.html

"...we know that the Abomination involves the anti-Christ standing in the Temple in Israel, proclaiming himself to be God. (Daniel 9:27 and 2 Thes. 2:4) But that can’t happen until some other things take place first. Obviously the anti-Christ has to be revealed. And the Jews have to build their Temple."

Online4Him »

Mon Feb 09, 2009 2:13 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

DrNogfog,

So, I take it that you subscribe to the futurist position . . . is this correct?

Dr_Nofog »

Mon Feb 09, 2009 1:57 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

16 Proofs of a Pre-Tribulation Rapture
http://www.rapturealert.com/sixteenproofs.html

http://bible-prophecy-today.blogspot.com/
Psalm 83 or Ezekiel 38, "Which is the Next Middle East News Headline?
(By Bill Salus)
Part I - Psalm 83 or Ezekiel 38?
Part II - The 83rd Piece...
Part III - Can Israel's Dry Bones Fight?

Dr_Nofog »

Mon Feb 09, 2009 1:40 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

...or their church's creed, but it is clear that they do not like the clear biblical teachings concerning the future.
#*&@hidden control character in the paste!

Dr_Nofog »

Mon Feb 09, 2009 1:35 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

4th time's a charm? Must be a hidden control character in the paste...
In the same vein, Oswald Allis admits, "the Old Testament prophecies if literally interpreted cannot be regarded as having been yet fulfilled or as being capable of fulfillment in this present age."[11]

Herein lies the problem with those, whether evangelical or liberal, who do not like where the proper approach (the literal hermeneutic) leads them. Either these conclusions do not fit their a priori worldview or their church’s creed, but it is clear that they do not like the clear biblical teachings concerning the future.

Dr_Nofog »

Mon Feb 09, 2009 1:29 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

Hmmm. Maybe it's the italics it doesn't like...I'll try again.
In the same vein, Oswald Allis admits, “the Old Testament prophecies if literally interpreted cannot be regarded as having been yet fulfilled or as being capable of fulfillment in this present age.”[11]

Herein lies the problem with those, whether evangelical or liberal, who do not like where the proper approach (the literal hermeneutic) leads them. Either these conclusions do not fit their a priori worldview or their church’s creed, but it is clear that they do not like the clear biblical teachings concerning the future.

Dr_Nofog »

Mon Feb 09, 2009 1:25 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

In the same vein, Oswald Allis admits, “the Old Testament prophecies if literally interpreted cannot be regarded as having been yet fulfilled or as being capable of fulfillment in this present age.”[11]

Herein lies the problem with those, whether evangelical or liberal, who do not like where the proper approach (the literal hermeneutic) leads them. Either these conclusions do not fit their a priori worldview or their church’s creed, but it is clear that they do not like the clear biblical teachings concerning the future.

Dr_Nofog »

Mon Feb 09, 2009 1:24 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

The 70th "week" is still future.
From Literal vs. Allegorical:
http://bible-prophecy-today.blogspot.com/2008/11/literal-vs-allegorical.html
In some of their more candid moments, opponents of literal interpretation admit that if our approach is followed, then it does correctly lead to dispensational theology. Floyd Hamilton said the following:

"Now we must frankly admit that a literal interpretation of the Old Testament prophecies gives us just such a picture of an earthly reign of the Messiah as the premillennialist pictures. That was the kind of Messianic kingdom that the Jews of the time of Christ were looking for, on the basis of a literal interpretation of the Old Testament promises."[10]

In the same vein, Oswald Allis admits, “the Old Testament prophecies if literally interpreted cannot be regarded as having been yet fulfilled or as being capable of fulfillment in this present age.”[11]

Herein lies the problem with those, whether evangelical or liberal, who do not like where the proper approach (the literal hermeneutic) leads them. Either these conclusions do not fit their a priori worldview or their church’s creed, but it is clear that they do not like the clear biblical teachings concerning the future.

Online4Him »

Sun Feb 08, 2009 1:57 pm Agree: 4   Disagree: 1

I just do not see within the text itself any justification for a time gap that is suppose to stop and start again at some point into the future . . . besides there is no passage of scripture that remotely suggests that the antichrist will make any covenant. . .

Online4Him »

Sun Feb 08, 2009 1:55 pm Agree: 3   Disagree: 2

Churchmouse,

Thank you for addressing my post and sharing your thoughts . . . I hope you do not see my posts as rebuttals but just another perspective . . .

The actual prophecy states:

(24)Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.(25)Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. (26) And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. (27) And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate (Daniel 9:24-27).

The (he) in Daniel 9:27 refers to none other than Jesus Christ, (the Messiah) referred to in verses 25 and 26. Our Messiah (confirmed the covenant), which means the new covenant, and after 3 ½ years of holy ministry He Himself caused (the sacrifice to cease) by His death on the cross. This position not only fits the context of Daniel 9:24-27, the facts of history, and New Testament evidence (see Romans 15:8 and Matthew 26:28), but is the position of the majority of well-respected older Bible commentaries. . . (See the commentaries of Matthew Henry, Jamieson, Fausett and Brown, Adam Clarke). For example,

Matthew Henrys commentary on Daniel 9:27 states, (By offering himself a sacrifice once and for all, he [Jesus], shall put an end to all the Levitical sacrifices). (1). British Methodist Adam Clarkes commentary says that during Daniel 9:27s (term of seven years), Jesus Himself would (confirm or ratify the new covenant with mankind) (2). The Jamieson, Fausset and Brown commentary also says: (He shall confirm the covenant-Christ. The confirmation of the covenant is assigned to Him).


Grammatically, it makes sense that all references to (he) in Daniel 9:27 refer to the same person throughout the text, that is, to Jesus Christ Himself. The (it) that is made (desolate) refers to the Jewish sanctuary. Speaking to the leaders of Israel, Jesus mournfully declared, (Behold, your house is left unto you desolate) (Matthew 23:38). When Jesus finally cried out, (It is finished) (John 19:30), the entire Jewish temple service, including its sacrifices, (ceased) to be of value in the sight of God.

believer »

Sun Feb 08, 2009 1:20 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 0

jn, I wholeheartedly concur, we may not know when but Praise God, Jesus is coming again!

churchmouse »

Sun Feb 08, 2009 11:48 am Agree: 2   Disagree: 1

In response to raptureready who wrote "GOD has always left instructions for his children , the church. there are no instructions after the 3rd book of revelation. would you do that to your children???

First, there is no guarantee that being a Christian will provide immunity to persecution. In fact, we are told to expect it. I Peter 4:12-13 comes to mind here.

"Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you; But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partaker of Christ's sufferings; that , when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy."

We are no different than the Christians that are persecuted today for their faith; like our Brothers and Sisters in North Korea, China, Saudi Arabia, Indonesia and many other countries. Revelation DOES give instruction to His Church in the last of days and is found IN the messages to the 7 churches. They are told to "overcome" and most are told to repent because we have fallen away from the faith.

churchmouse »

Sun Feb 08, 2009 11:25 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 2

In response to Online4Him who wrote:
I dont know . . . many sound biblical commentaries do not toss the last week of the 70th week of Daniel 9 into the future . . . by what biblical basis should we do that?

In the prophecy of the 70 weeks in Daniel 9:24-27, at the end of 69 weeks,time stopped when Jesus entered Jerusalem on Palm Sunday and was crucified. There remaining week wasn't fulfilled "to bring in everlasting righteousness". When the Jews rejected Jesus as their Messiah, a time lapse was necessary for the calling of the Gentiles (Us! Praise the Lord!) At some time in the future, the last "week" would begin again with a "covenant with many" confirmed by the Antichrist himself culminating with "that determined shall be poured upon the desolate" and the Return of Christ.

And like I stated earlier, there's a covenant that matches Daniel 9:27. The ENP was first created in 2004 and it was 'strengthened' for a 7 year period beginning January 1, 2007-December 31,2013 thru an increase of funding and available programs for particiapating countries. For more info on the 'strengthening' do a search on the ENPI and check out the ENP website.

JonnyBlad »

Sun Feb 08, 2009 10:45 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 2

Here are a few good messages concerning Eschatology:

http://polemos.net/Eschatology.html

Online4Him »

Sun Feb 08, 2009 4:30 am Agree: 4   Disagree: 0

Also, what biblical justification do we have for taking the last week of the 70th week in Daniel and tossing it into the future and calling it the seven year tribulation?

Online4Him »

Sun Feb 08, 2009 4:27 am Agree: 4   Disagree: 0

Second, you stated, (that the man of perdition cannot show himself until the one who lets; (the H.S.) will let, or is moved out)

Historically, the Holy Spirit has not been identified as the power that (is moved out or will let) . . . consider the following:

Many of the early church fathers like Tertullian, Chrysostom, and Jerome identify the power that (is moved out or will let) as the Roman Empire. For example, Tertullian (2nd-3rd Century) said,


For the mystery of iniquity doth already work; only he who now hinders must hinder, until he be taken out of the way." What obstacle is there but the Roman state, the falling away of which, by being scattered into ten kingdoms, shall introduce Antichrist upon (its own ruins)? "And then shall be revealed the wicked one, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of His mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of His coming: even him whose coming is after the working of Satan, with all power, and signs, and lying wonders, and with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish.

Source: http://newadvent.org/fathers/0301.htm

Matthew Henry: This is supposed to be the power of the Roman empire, which the apostle did not think fit to mention more plainly at that time . . .

John Gill: That is, the Roman empire and Roman emperors, and which were by degrees entirely removed, and so made way for the revelation of this wicked one . . .

John Wesley: That which restraineth - The power of the Roman emperors. When this is taken away, the wicked one will be revealed.

The early church father along with the reformers all identified the Roman Empire as that power; (he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way) verse 7. They all seem to be viewing this chapter in light of another chapter . . . Daniel chapter 7.

You are right; eschatology is a very deep study and has to be interpreted by using other passages of scripture.

Online4Him »

Sun Feb 08, 2009 4:26 am Agree: 5   Disagree: 0

Raptureready,

Though I do not subscribe to the secret rapture as some do . . . I do like your username; maybe because it emphases the word ready . . . I have a couple of thoughts here . . . First, take a look at 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4:

Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Do you see it? Paul wrote about: 1) the coming of Jesus Christ; 2) our gathering to Him; and 3) the arrival of the Man of Sin. When it comes to the order of events, Paul is very definite. He said that BEFORE Jesus comes to gather us, the falling away must take place FIRST and the Man of Sin must be revealed. Thus the Man of Sin [also called Antichrist], must come FIRST, before Jesus comes to gather us.
Paul said, (Let no man deceive you by any means) (vs. 3) about this exact truth!

raptureready »

Sun Feb 08, 2009 1:03 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 4

there is nothing that i hae seen in the scriptures that verify that we have to see the antichrist BEFORE we are raptured. in revelation the churchn is never again mentioned again after the 3rd chapter. why? because we are gone. the HOLY SPIRIT is leaving with us as WE are his temple and the bible says that the man of perdition cannot show himself until the one who lets,(the H.S.) will let, or is moved out. HE,in us is what restrains him from taking over until we are taken out of the way. eschatology is a very dep study and has to be interpreted by using other scripture, (ie: daniel for one) this is the "great hope" that jesus referred to, that we might be able to be found clean enough to escape that day. GOD has always left instructions for his children , the church. there are no instructions after the 3rd book of revelation. would you do that to your children???

Online4Him »

Sat Feb 07, 2009 2:08 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

churchmouse,

I dont know . . . many sound biblical commentaries do not toss the last week of the 70th week of Daniel 9 into the future . . . by what biblical basis should we do that?

churchmouse »

Sat Feb 07, 2009 12:43 pm Agree: 3   Disagree: 4

Yes, there ARE signs that the Return of Christ is near. There are clues in the Bible that give insight into the last of days. For instance, the antichrist is supposed to make "a covenant with many" for 7 years, This covenant will mark the beginning of the last 7 years before the Return of Christ. There IS such a covenant in existance today. It's called the European Neighborhood Policy and it was "confirmed" (or "strengthened" ) as Daniel 9:27 states. It fits perfectly: it is with "many", it was "confirmed" for 7 years. It is also associated with a man whose job was created by the 1998 EU Vienna Council decision 666. This man is ALSO the "little horn" of the WEU, a 10 nation military alliance. So you see, the ENP not only fulfills the requirements of Daniel 9:27 thus far, it also was made by the possible Antichrist to come. The ENP came into effect January 1, 2007. The church is not paying attention to it though because it suggests there is no pre-trib rapture and really, nobody likes talking about the elephant in the room.

The signs continue to support that the ENP is the covenant with many. The only way we can know for sure is wait to see if the rest of the prophecy comes true. The prophecy continues to state that the Antichrist will stop the sacrifices "midweek". That means that if the ENP is "it" then we should see the Antichrist stopping the Jewish sacrifices sometime in 2010, most likely around March before Passover.

And get this: the current conflict at Gaza will most likely end with an international "peacekeeping" force potentially fulfilling the prophecy of Luke 21:20.

Think about it: we could be as little as 11 months away from the Great Tribulation. that elephant is getting bigger everyday!

Vesuno »

Sat Feb 07, 2009 12:42 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

Billy Graham was subliminally smeared on the cover of TIme mag.last year when his touched up photo was placed so high the tops of the M appeared to be horns coming out of his head! A 'dead duck' was also painted on his head instead of a hair piece...when one is attacked by Time Mag that way one has made big time enemies...Ves