Updated 04:40 pm.EST, Sat November 21, 2009

Society|Mon, Feb. 09 2009 06:44 PM EST

Many Christians Claim Unbiblical Spiritual Gifts, Survey Finds

By Jennifer Riley|Christian Post Reporter

A surprising number of Americans who said they were familiar with spiritual gifts identified ones that are not listed in the Bible as gifts, a new survey found.

About one-fifth (21 percent) of respondents who said they have heard of spiritual gifts claimed to have gifts such as a sense of humor, singing, health, life, happiness, patience, a job, a house, compromise, premonition, creativity, and clairvoyance – ones that are not among those deemed to be spiritual gifts in the passages of Scripture that teach about gifts, according to a Barna Group report released Monday.

The report is based on three nationwide surveys that included 1,006 adults in 1995; 1,003 adults in 2000; and 1,006 adults in 2008. In each survey, the first question related to spiritual gifts was limited to people who had described themselves as Christians. The follow-up question regarding what spiritual gifts they possessed, if any, was limited to people who said they had heard of spiritual gifts.

Overall, two-thirds (68 percent) of Americans who described themselves as Christian said they have heard of spiritual gifts.

Among the self-proclaimed Christians, an astounding 99 percent of evangelicals have heard of the term, which is far more than the 74 percent of non-evangelical born again Christians and the 58 percent of notional Christians.

An “evangelical,” as defined by the Barna Group, meets the “born again” criteria of beliefs plus seven other conditions, which include saying their faith is very important in their life; believing they have a personal responsibility to share their religious beliefs about Christ with non-Christians; asserting that the Bible is accurate in all that it teaches, among other beliefs.

The most popular biblical spiritual gifts that respondents claimed to possess are teaching (9 percent), service (8 percent) and faith (7 percent). Encouragement (4 percent), healing (4 percent), knowledge (4 percent), and tongues (3 percent) followed the top three. The gift of leadership was named by only two percent of those interviewed.

When evangelical respondents were looked at alone, the survey found that they were significantly more likely than the general population and other faith segments to say they have biblical spiritual gifts.

Nearly one in three (28 percent) said they have the gift of teaching, 12 percent said they possess the gift of service, and 10 percent claimed to have the gift of encouragement.

In other findings, the Barna survey also found that 13 percent of American Christian adults claimed to have one or more charismatic gifts (e.g. healing, interpretation, knowledge, miracles, prophecy, tongues).

Looking at data over the past 13 years, the Barna report noted that the percentage claiming to have the gift of encouragement has grown from two percent in 1995 to six percent today.

Meanwhile, those who could not identify their gift rose from eight percent in 2000 to 13 percent today.

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  • Mon Feb 16, 2009 10:35 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    star2, got it, see you in the morning.

  • Mon Feb 16, 2009 10:24 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    star2, yes!:)

  • Mon Feb 16, 2009 10:19 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    believer, are yous still here?

  • Mon Feb 16, 2009 10:18 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    star2, I'm here and I tried to go to the site you gave me but somehow I couldn't get there but that's probably my mess-up, but I'm heading for the sack, see you in the morning, believer

  • Mon Feb 16, 2009 9:55 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    PastorJim, I too wholeheartedy agree with both you and star2 about the surrender issue as this is an ongoing struggle for each of us and indeed one of satan's most effective tools in keeping believers ineffective, but God's Holy Spirit can give us daily, moment by moment, choice by choice victory if we stay consistently surrendered to Christ and the control of the Holy Spirit.

  • Mon Feb 16, 2009 9:36 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    believer and oldstudent,

    Gotta go tend to some family needs, but I just wanted to thank you both for the advice, and I'll stay mindful while studying materials from John MacArthur, or listening to his radio sermons ... I'm sure I'll be bombarding one or both of you with questions in the future.

    Have a good night, and God bless you both.

  • Mon Feb 16, 2009 8:22 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Muggle,

    Sorry for the incomplete post there...

    I would agree with Star that surrendering to Christ comes first. So often, we don't surrender ourselves in all areas of our lives and we hamper the Spirit's work.

    I think that one of the most overlooked ways to "discover" one's gift is to ask others who observe you. Much of the time others see your gifts, sometimes not. The key is to not accept what everybody says as gospel because we have a tendency to see someone's "gift" when we need someone in a ministry and not see the real gift.

    I'm not big on the tests either but they can help one to see strengths and weaknesses we may not see in ourselves. Sometimes as Believer says, we start to, "see" our gift after the testing though.

    Grace and Peace,
    jim

  • Mon Feb 16, 2009 8:17 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Muggle,

    Thanks for pointing that out. Yes, I did notice that and no, I am not taking any offense on you asking that; it is a valid question for sure. If I have misquoted or messed up our "prophet" with our "star" please someone let me know so I can correct it.

    Also, Believer's pointing out Blackaby's book although I think that Blackaby focuses too much on experience and not enough on Scripture. And again, like Believer, I think MacArthur is an extremely good teacher but he is a bit too restrictive (he is a cessationist) but tries to stay true to the word at the expense of spirit of the writings sometimes. I think the author (outside of the Spirit) that walks the fine line between the two poles is Saucy. He isn't a cessationist but also makes sure to test the spirits against Scriptural freedoms and limitations (Scripture doesn't say the gifts [even miraculous gifts like healing] are gone but we have to make sure to test the spirits and the fruit of the gifts being claimed.
    Another good book (but not on the less coveted gifts) is, "Are Miraculous Gifts for Today? (4 views)" It is a very good book on the 4 basic views on the gifts of healing, prophecy, etc. but not the gifts of teaching among the "lesser" gifts.

    Hope that helps.

    Grace and Peace,
    Jim

  • Mon Feb 16, 2009 2:56 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Thanks believer. I have to go to work but I will be home around 8:30PM (CT).

  • Mon Feb 16, 2009 2:53 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    star2, I'll contact you later and I flagged your post in case you didn't want others to get a hold of it, believer

  • Mon Feb 16, 2009 2:00 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    muggle, I'm not too comfortable with many of the spiritual gift inventories out there, since most are based on a person's preferences as opposed to truly figuring out what one's spiritual gifts really are, plus after you've taken them for a while you can pretty well pick out what spiritual gifts you want. The same is true with personality profiles like Briggs/Meyers. But I do find the DISC personality inventory profile is pretty accurate.

  • Mon Feb 16, 2009 1:56 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    believer, I agree.
    Why wouldn't God use the world to develop a gift in us? Afterall, look at Saul/Paul. Saul's zeal made Paul a very affective Apostle for the building up of the Body. What about the team manager or event organizer? How effective could they be for the building up of the Body? What about the teacher or secretary? How effective can they be for the buiding up of the Body? God causes ALL things for good.

  • Mon Feb 16, 2009 1:55 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    believer,

    >> The problem I have is overemphasis on a person's spiritual gifts to the point it becomes a pride thing as was the case in some Christian circles during the late 60s and 70s with speaking in tongues. <<

    I actually have some exposure to this. I'll talk about later on. BTW, wasn't this even the problem Paul discussed in Romans 12?

    I would like to talk more about this, but I think I want to review star2's post first. I'm at work right now though, so I'll have to come back to it. Let's keep the thread going :)

    God bless.

  • Mon Feb 16, 2009 1:49 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    star2,
    I think you're right and I apologize for that. I kept looking at the posts and distilling it in my head to something akin to a personality test; kind of like the Keirsey Temperment Sorter that identifies your place in a quandrant among 4 personality types ... yeah, I know ... I just plain ol' missed the point :^)

    I'll look at your post again, and go from there. Obviously, I'll go back and cross-ref it with scripture ... so no worries.

  • Mon Feb 16, 2009 1:45 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    MuggleBorn - I too at one time had an interest in knowing about spiritual gifts and what mine was. I read different books on it and found that they contradicted one another. It left me confused. It will most likely do the same for you.

    Read my testimony I gave on this thread. It is the Thu Feb 12,2009 2:08pm post. The best way to know what your gift is and to use it is to first, surrender your life to Christ (make Him Lord of your life), let Him know that you want to know what your spiritual gift is and to use it, and walk in obedience to Him. God will answer.

    Also, my posts dealt with certain characteristics that are common with believers that are gifted for Preaching, Serving, Teaching, Exhorting, Giving, ruling/leading, and One who shows mercy. I was using the word Prophet though now I believe that the proper word is Preacher.

    Oldstudent's posts were focused on the ministry of Pastor and the Office of Prophet. There is value in those posts on that topic but it has nothing to do with what you are gifted for. Don't confuse the manisfestation gifts and the ministry gifts with the particular spiritual gift that God has given you. Many believers might be given a call to teach a class but not be gifted for teaching. I have known some like that. One guy actually had the gift for ruler/administrator and yet he was asked to teach on a certain topic and he did a good job at it. But even he admited he did not have the gift of teaching. So just because you have a certain type of ministry in the local church does not mean you have the spiritual gift for it; it only means that God wanted you to do it and He gave you the grace at that time for it.

    Oldstudent like the rest of you seem to have missed entirely my point in my discussion. This is fine. I guess God chose not to use anything I said to minister to you or anyone else for that matter in the area I was discussing. That is fine; that is His decision. Praise God!

  • Mon Feb 16, 2009 12:47 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    muggle, I tend to support Blackaby's view that says the spiritual gift given to a believer when they are saved is the Gift of the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit is the gift. And then God equips believers with the spiritual gifts they will to need to effectively accomplish God's calling on their life. Plus, I tend to believe that God often times is developing spiritual gifts in us even before we're saved, but they don't truly become a spiritual gift until we are saved or He appears to build upon a talent or ability and make it a spiritual gitf. The problem I have is overemphasis on a person's spiritual gifts to the point it becomes a pride thing as was the case in some Christian circles during the late 60s and 70s with speaking in tongues. Some of those who had that "gift" hung it over the heads of those who did not as if to say those who didn't were second class Christians. As long as we keep gifts in there proper biblical perspective namely they are given for edifying God and the building up of the body/church and Christians don't use them for bragging rights I have no problem with spiritual gifts. and hope every believer will discover their spiritual gift(s) so God can more effectively use them for His glory and the building up of His kingdom.

  • Mon Feb 16, 2009 10:43 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Thanks, believer :^)

    Just out of curiosity (and not to put you on the spot), do you agree in general with points made previously in this discussion? Is there anything that you might add, or would you prefer that I just kind of refer back to Romans and Ephesians and press on? ;^)

  • Mon Feb 16, 2009 9:54 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    muggle, the title is, "So What's So Spiritual About Your Gifts?"

  • Mon Feb 16, 2009 9:52 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    muggle, as much as I respect John MacArthur, he tends to come down pretty hard on those of the charismatic/pentecostal persuasion, sometimes I believe to the point of excess, if you haven't already you might want to read Henry Blackaby's book, I believe the title is "The Gift Of The Holy Spirit And The Church", it really helped me a lot in this area.

  • Mon Feb 16, 2009 9:25 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    oldstudent,

    The definitions of prophet and prophetess that you provided have always been what I understood them to be. Thank you for your explaination. I will contemplate on it and pray. The subject of spiritual gifts is something I very much want to understand. Please pray for wisdom for me to understand God's Word and to find other resources that are consistent with scripture.

    I just wanted to ask one question ... You do know that there were posts from star2 in this thread where she was addressing another fellow Christian, whose alias is "Prophet"? ... not trying to be condescending, BTW. It only occurred to me just after I went back through the dialogs. I might have even made that mistake if I weren't acquainted with Prophet. It seemed like star2's concern about you focusing on the definition of a prophet was legitimate. I apologize if that wasn't it.

    In any event it seems to have worked out. I'm grateful for what you and star2 contribute, here and trust that the Lord would press me on to somewhere else if He didn't want me to pay heed.

    star2, oldstudent,
    If you have any good references to share, I would love to have them. Otherwise, I was planning on just reviewing some John MacArthur teachings on the subject of Spiritual Gifts to try to corroborate what's been discussed here.

    God bless. I'll talk to you both later.

  • Sun Feb 15, 2009 10:18 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 2

    Star,

    I never said you claimed the office of prophet. You said,
    "When I Prophesy (proclaim God's truth), I do it with a teaching style, which is to explain everything. When I am a servant I find ways to bring God into the situation and I look for opportunities to explain spiritual truths. When I teach it is always to explain the whys of everything. My exhortations to spiritual betterment is done with explaing what God wants and how to do it. When I give to someone in need, I look for an opportunity to share the gospel, which at times, I go into great lengths as to the whys of the gospel. When I rule, I find myself explaining why I say or require such and such. When I show mercy, I find myself offering explanations that are pertinant to the person's problem/struggle/hurts or I give them the gosple, again, sometimes in great detail."

    You are the one who says they are prophesying, not I.

    Proclaiming God's truth is Preaching, not Prophesying.
    A prophecy is God's direct word. It is divinely given (God-breathed) whether corporate (Scripture maybe) or personal in nature.

    Proclaiming God's words already revealed is preaching.
    Preachers proclaim the word during sermons.

    There is a difference and that is where I somehow got that you called yourself a prophet. You claimed that you would prophesy in a teaching style. So please excuse me for being confused when you didn't mean to claim prophetic words but said that you prophesy. Next time I will make sure that when someone says prophesy that they don't really mean they are prophesying.

    And yes, you are completely free to say others don't have a clue, it is America. Maybe, just maybe I didn't have all the clues because of the whole, "prophesy without actual prophesying" statements you have made.

    I apologize for not having a clue when you were not so clear in your postings. I should have known what you truly meant so I could "have a clue." Of course the onus of understanding falls on others when we aren't so clear in our words. And just to be very clear, yes the last words are facetious (definition number 2 in Webster's) in nature.

    Grace and Peace,
    Jim

  • Sun Feb 15, 2009 10:02 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 2

    Star,

    The early church and the apostles and elders appointed deacons (the name itself has to do with physical servant unlike elder which does not) so they could focus on what? Acts 6 tells us that the deacons were appointed to take care of the physical needs while the 12 were to devote themselves to prayer and the word.

    Nowhere did I say that elders can never tend to these needs, in fact I used the term "focus" for this description. The elder/pastor/bishop/overseer is by definition one that has charge to guide and oversee the flock, not be involved with the everyday phyiscal serving of the flock. Elders are to concentrate on prayer, the word (so they can teach and preach and guide the flock under His direction). Again, this is from the definitions of the words themselves and what descriptions we see in Scripture.

    Again,. this is not overstepping any bounds to say these things, it is what HE wrote and told us. If you have an issue with that, again, take it up with God Star, He is the writer of the Scriptures and the chooser of the words that were put into the pages. He made the delineation, not I. If it is "overstepping my bounds" to point out what is the basic definitions and biblical roles that God has put forth then we have a serious problem with what authority we choose to follow. I will follow Scripture.

    Grace and Peace,
    Jim

  • Sun Feb 15, 2009 9:48 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 2

    Star,

    I love you as my sister.

    I have not overstepped my bounds in calling out Robertson and the others who have uttered false prophecies. We are told specifically that false prophets are NOT His children and it is such an important issue that He required the Israelis to kill false prophet! Since when does Yahweh say to stone His children because they are His? He doesn't! Please read Deut 13 & 18 Star. It is God who makes that decision as to who is His and who is not His. When one continually makes false prophecies (or prophecies that turn people away from God) it is apparent that they are not His.

    God doesn't give the death penalty to those who are His obedient children. He orders it for those who are not His and are leading His children away from God.

    That isn't overstepping my bounds Star, that is pointnig out the bounds that God has laid down for us. If you have a problem with that then take it up with God please. It is His word and decision.

    Grace and Peace,
    Jim

  • Sun Feb 15, 2009 4:05 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    This is about all I have to say, I guess, oldstudent. Peace!

  • Sun Feb 15, 2009 4:03 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    oldstudent

    >>>Although it is possible that God will delay His usage of a man or woman as a prophet or prophetess, it seems unlikely due to the biblical record. We find prophets who were sinners that were used by God and He used their sin to make His point (Jonah's hatred, Moses temper, etc. If God has called you as a prophet then prophesy. Either he has given you divine words or He hasn't and whatever sin in your life there is, He will eradicate in the process.<<<

    I do not hold the office of Prophet nor have I ever said I did. I am not called to be a Prophet. I have never been given to date any divine words from God. I do seek God for the understanding of the Word of God and not man. The understandings that I have are, I'm sure, flawed in some kind of way. I am not perfect. Though I seek God for understanding of His Word I make mistakes for a variety of reasons. The only posts at CP that I have made based on someone else's (Mickey Bonner's) teaching has been in regard to spiritual gifts that I have made on this thread, though some of it is my own in an area where I knew Dr. Bonner was wrong in.

    God has revealed to me that He wants me to speak for Him in regard to doctrine. This can not happen until I repent from certain kinds of rebellion because those things that I rebel against are the very things that are a part of me being able to accomplish what He wants me to do. Also there is another issue that is not rebellion or sin related before I can. But if I succeed in repentance and other non-sin related issues then when God has me speak for Him in regard to doctrine I will be able to say like Jesus in John 7:16 - "Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his who sent me."

  • Sun Feb 15, 2009 3:13 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    oldstudent - I think Preacher would have been a more accurate term to use instead of Prophet type in my posts where I describe the characteristics that are common among those who are gifted for Preaching, Servant, Teacher, Exhorter, Giver, Ruler/Administrator, and One who shows Mercy.

  • Sun Feb 15, 2009 2:14 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    oldstudent

    >>> I haven't told anyone they don't have a clue as to what I am saying either, I challenged specifics of some postings and that is it.<<<

    I was talking about fruit and you were talking about nuts. Yes, I had a right to say you have no clue about what I was talking about. Your posts were quite evident that you didn't understand what I was saying and your criticisms were not appropriate for what I was saying.

    What you wrote in and of itself I would agree with a lot of what you said. However what I tried to explain had nothing to do with a ministry God might call a believer into (like Pastor or Evangelist) or how He uses manisfestation gifts in believer(s). I was talking about characteristics that are common among people who are gifted for ministry (servant), teaching, exhortation, mercy, giving, administration/leadership, or prophecy.

    Also, I wasn't referring to someone having the office of Prophet which you wanted also to dwell on.

    I personally don't know anyone today who has the office of Prophet. I won't say they don't exist, I just don't know of anyone. However, I do know that at times God will give a prophecy to someone who does not hold the office of Prophet about future events and those prophecies do come to pass as stated.

  • Sun Feb 15, 2009 1:52 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    oldstudent

    star2 said, "All I was doing was trying to identify what some of those common characteristics were so a believer can maybe see those characteristics in themselves and maybe be able to identify what they are gifted for."

    Even this is not necessary. A believer doesn't even need to know what he is gifted for. All he needs to do is make Jesus Lord of his life and walk in obedience to God and God will take care of the rest. God will have the believer make use of what He has gifted the believer with if the believer is submited to God to do the will of God. Without making Jesus Lord one cannot do the work God has ordainded the believer to walk in because the believer doesn't know what it is that God wants him to do. Whatever he does is done in the flesh.

  • Sun Feb 15, 2009 1:25 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    jerryc, this sister you refer to, is she a sister in the Lord or is she your blood relative?

  • Sun Feb 15, 2009 12:29 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    jerryc, thank you for sharing about your sister. I look forward to hearing more should you feel led to share.

  • Sun Feb 15, 2009 12:27 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    oldstudent

    >>> We have proven false prophets like Pat Robertson, Oral Roberts, Richard Roberts (among many others) who deceive the people of God and we allow them to be part of our denominations (they are not part of the family of God though).<<<

    You have overstepped your bounds to claim that these people, though their prophecies were not of God, to say that they are not truly born-again believers in the Lord Jesus Christ. Sometimes, and I am sure it has happened to all of us, when we pray we hear things in the spirit that we think is of God but is, in fact, not. Sometimes we don't hear from God but from Satan, if you will, because of rebellion, some sin in our life, unforgiveness, disobedience, idolatry, or what ever but it doesn't mean that we are lost. You don't know enough about their life to make the calim that they are not part of the family of God, or born-again.


    >>> If an elder is focusing on the physical needs of the flock then he is either not an elder and is in the office wrongly or he is an elder who is not allowing others who are to be deacons to fulfill their calling. Either way it is not good.<<<

    Again you are over stepping your bounds to make such a claim. My Pastor who had the gift of Servant was called to be the Pastor of my Church. My Church is small. What you say I would think would be true of larger Churches but not necessarily for small churches. When I first started to attend back in 2002 we only had about 25 or so members in the Church. God was very much present in our Church through prophecies, tongues and interpretation of tongues, and healings. Plus God was working miracles in the lives of those who attended. We had no deacons though we had a few elders of which one of them would help the Pastor in the service type work. That Pastor and his wife is exactly what that Church needed when he was Pastor. He is now retired. God will call whom He wishes. God is not bound by our wisdom.

  • Sat Feb 14, 2009 11:41 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    oldstudent

    I was not speaking as a Prophet. I never claimed I was. I was not speaking about the ministry of pastor either though all your criticisms were focused on that plus the office of Prophet. I was speaking about characteristics associated with the 7 different types of spiritual gifts mentioned in Rom 12:6-8.

    This article was about spiritual gifts. Many of the people who responded to the survey identified themselves as either being of the teacher type, the servant type, or the exhorter type. Some used the manisfestation gifts to identify their 'spiritual gift', which is wrong to do. Manisfestation gifts are not the same as what God gifts a person for. I have attended full gospel Churches where the manisfestation gifts are in operation. Believer A might bring a tongue and believer B might interpret it on one Sunday but the next Sunday believer A might give a prophecy while believer B might do nothing but then the following Sunday believer C might give a tongue and the interpretation too. Yet believer A and believer B might be gifted differently. Believer A might be gifted for teaching while believer B might be gifted service, and believer C might be gifted for mercy.

    The kind of comments given on this thread suggested to me that the posters didn't understand how to identify what a believer's spiritual gift was. I wanted to comment but didn't. Later God dealt with my heart and mind about it and finally told me He wanted me to post.

    All I wrote was a way that one could identify what God has gifted a believer for. It is not perfect but it offers a guideline to help someone identitfy his/her gift.

    I was not refering to manisfestation gifts or the ministry gifts such as apostle, prophet, evangelist, pastor, teacher, and etc.. (continued)

  • Sat Feb 14, 2009 11:41 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    continued

    The gift God gives a believer when he becomes born-again is not connected to a ministry gift or a manisfestation gift. The kind of gifts I was refering to is the kind that controls who you are, how you think, how you view and respond to situations, and etc. It also deal with personality. There are characteristics that are common among those who have the Prophet type of gift, there are common characteristics among those who are servers, there are common characteristics among those who are teachers, and etc. All I was doing was trying to identify what some of those common characteristics were so a believer can maybe see those characteristics in themselves and maybe be able to identify what they are gifted for.

    By the comments given I could tell that MuggleBorn, Forgivensinner, and Prophet misunderstood what I wrote. They think that they possess all the different types of gifts because they are blessed when ministering in those areas and love doing it. God has blessed me too when He had me give to those in need, or shown mercy to someone, or taught, or encouraged someone, or performed some service to someone, or had leadership responsibilitites. God also blesses when we do His will. And even I assumed that I was gifted in those areas. But I am not. I had the grace to do what God wanted me to do at the time and I was blessed when I did but I was not gifted for it. I was called to be and gifted for teaching. Teaching was many times a part of my ministry to someone when acting in those other capacities.

    Just about all my ministry is done outside the Church and in Church without anyone knowing. Only once did I have responsibility in Church to teach. I taught the youth in Sunday School and at night for a total of about 2 yrs.

    I agree with you that character is important in an elder/bishop/pastor or even in a Christian in general but I was not refering to that. Again I was refering to the individual gift a believer has separate from any kind of ministry they may have or how God uses them with the manisfestation gifts.

  • Sat Feb 14, 2009 9:51 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    I want to thank all of you for understanding and being compassionate towards me. This sister has been my friend for a long time, and I believe that her motives went south long ago, and we have a lot of anymosity against one another. She has really brought me under much bondage, which I do realize the false teachers in the Apostles time did the same to the 1st Century Church. It's like she has had this hold over my mind that she tries to lord over every decision I make, especially when it comes to any woman having an interest in me. She even admits, at times, that she does the opposite of what the Bible tells us to do when dealing with fellow believers. I think her wounds from her divorce 18 years ago are still very fresh.. Well it's a long story, but I believe thie is why she acts the way she does?? Maybe I will write more later.. God Bless you all!!!

    In Christ,
    Chris

  • Sat Feb 14, 2009 4:43 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Muggle,

    I appreciate your words and will take them into prayerful consideration.

    If I make definitive statements then I shouldn't expect others to ask clarifying questions. If you said "the sky is Navy Blue" and I asked what you meant by that, you would point to a color palette or attempt to make me understand Navy Blue. But I wouldn't ask that question because I know what Navy Blue is. If the sky was powder blue instead and you made the same statement, should I ask what Navy Blue is? No, you told me what color the sky is and you made an unequivocal claim that the sky is Navy Blue. So if I pointed out that the sky is powder blue and not navy blue what is wrong with that? Nothing and I would expect someone to point it out if the shoe were on the other foot.

    Although the gift issue is not of salvific importance (thank Him profusely for that!) it has become important for many reasons. (the following is not about Star but only a generalization) Many claim to be prophets and do not fulfill what Scripture says a prophet does and/or doesn't do. We have proven false prophets like Pat Robertson, Oral Roberts, Richard Roberts (among many others) who deceive the people of God and we allow them to be part of our denominations (they are not part of the family of God though). We have allowed non-biblical usages of terms to infiltrate and become the norm in our churches. Prophets are never wrong or ever lead His people away from His already revealed word. A prophet is a spokesperson for God-speaks the actual words He desires to be spoken. A prophet is not the same as one who is a teacher who expounds on and explains the words of God. They are completely different. A teacher teaches, not preaches. A preacher preaches and is not a prophet. Is there room for a preacher to have God reveal His new words to and through him? Sure but that is not the norm nor is it the way a preacher operates in his function.

    These distinctions are important for us to know the differences so we know what is true and what is not true. There is room for all of us to be wrong (and we all are, certainly including me) from time to time but never if I speak for God (prophet).

    Scripture records the Bereans being complimented because they studied the Scriptures daily and brought questions and issues to Paul while he preached and taught there. We need to do the same. We have godly people being challenged for public teaching or public actions in Scripture also. If I make public statements which are definitive in nature, I need to be ready to be called on them. I didn't tell Star she should use a concordance or lexicon or anything of the sort, that would have been disrespectful and false (Star didn't do this either). I haven't told anyone they don't have a clue as to what I am saying either, I challenged specifics of some postings and that is it.

    Grace and Peace,
    Jim

  • Sat Feb 14, 2009 3:20 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 0

    Star2, Prophet, Forgivensinner, believer, DP, et al.

    My last post was kind of long, so I just wanted to break this text out of it, real quick. If we could pray this, I'm sure the Lord will sync our time zones :^)

    [Heavenly Father, we thank You for your constant intervention in our lives, and we look forward to what You have in store ... even trials, because we know they will simply be demonstrations of your resolve.

    we ask, Lord that You grant wisdom to the sister of Jerry C. Give her perspective of what true discipleship is.

    We ask, Lord that You grant you more wisdom to Jerry, to be able to minister to her, and to be able to relate to her spiritual and emotional needs, so that their family relationship remains strong, in You.

    We thank You again dear God, in Jesus' name. Amen.]

  • Sat Feb 14, 2009 3:09 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    jerryc,

    Dude, I totally TOTALLY hear you. I grew up Catholic with a VERY Catholic mother who used to shove religion down my throat, and many times had something "prophetical" to tell me about some aspect of my life she didn't like.

    Worse than that, she somehow always hooked up with people in the church that were weirder than she was and spoke EXACTLY how you describe your sister ... TO ME! They spoke like this to me and my mom nodded her head and let them! :^)

    In my teen years, our yelling matches were anything other than biblical, but rather a smorgasbord of obscenities and name-calling. I was such a pluralist and very rebellious in those days.

    Funny thing is, I came to realize years later that everything IS about God. [I praise You and thank You oh, God that I found a personal relationship with your Son, my Savior, Jesus Christ. Praise You and thank You, dear Jesus].

    My mother and I have long since forgiven eachother. We still have debates, but she understands that I have more solid foundation in Christ, and I think is more reassured, thus ... less yelling :^) Now I'm just gearing up to try and untangle her "religion" from here relationship with Jesus, which I still feel confident is in strong standing.

    Anyway, sorry about that tangent ... this is about your need.

    Go easy on your sister, man. She sounds a little mislead, if I read correctly. People who proclaim to be the mouth of God get hung up on themselves, instead of listening to what God wants them to do. They tend to walk ahead of the Lord, rather than follow, if you catch my drift.

    But what can you say? If she loves you, she loves you, and I'm sure you love her. I can't offer any advice on how to broach the problem, and I definitely won't "speak for God" ;^) but I can probably speak for others reading this that we will pray for her, that she seeks wisdom and realizes true discipleship.

    We will also pray for you, that God grants you more wisdom to be able to minister to her, so that the first prayer [may even] be answered via your fruits.

    Oh, and don't feel to remorseful about venting, here. There are many compassionate brothers and sisters in Christ who will evaluate your words, and follow the Holy Spirit in giving a response.

    God bless you.

  • Sat Feb 14, 2009 2:31 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    oldstudent,

    Praise God for your input and commitment to the Word and to the Truth, in Jesus' name. I've reviewed your posts and I believe you offer valid points, but I get the impression there is some synergy lost between what Star2 is telling you, and your responses.

    I'd like to say that I've been acquainted with star2 and believe I have a respectable understanding of what she says. She is well versed in scripture and has never given me the impression of anything unbiblical in her dialogs. Also, I know her to give matters of faith careful consideration before she speaks on them.

    And in true fashion of a teacher, I have learned from her, as well as from Prophet, Daniel Paul, Forgiven, artm, and quite a few others. There are many here that you would almost think were members of the same ministry if they were geographically closer.

    I'd like to offer ... that if you find something she says as questionable, ask her to reiterate on that point, one point at a time. "So what you're saying is this? ..." and so forth. Then if needed, follow up with an antithetical approach. "So you're NOT saying ..." and so forth.

    I just think that you might be running with something other than the main point of what she's saying, or possibly mistaking something you feel she has "omitted" as something incorrect.

    Then, again I may be way off base, but I wanted to offer something, because you are a brother in Christ.

  • Sat Feb 14, 2009 12:31 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    jerryc, it seems to me that you have been wounded by your sister who thinks she is a Prophetess. I know it must be hard in dealing with someone who wants to control you and to claim that God said such and such perhaps even you looking for it to happen but was disapppointed and hurt that it did not. I also detect some unforgiveness in your heart towards her and those like her.

    Unforgiveness is a powerful tool of Satan to destroy relationships and to bound people up. As long as Satan can imprison you in it he can control your life and make it miserable through the people and circumstances in your life.

    God requires that we forgive those who have done us wrong. Jesus said that if you don't forgive those who have done you wrong God will not forgive you. (Matt 6:15)

    Forgiveness brings healing and it is liberating. (I know this from personal experience.) I would like to encourage you to go to God in prayer and ask Him to help you forgive your sister from your heart, and when He does confess it. Pray for her that God will deal with her in her sins, open her eyes to truth, and bring her to repentance.

  • Sat Feb 14, 2009 11:23 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    jerryc,

    You should be careful with your words which flow from your heart. You seem to have written your initial post on this subject (Thu Feb 12, 2009 9:40 pm) from either frustration or arrogance or some combination of these and maybe something else.

    1. You said "all commenting on this post should do their homework."- This certainly isn't true at least in my case (I cannot speak for others because I have no idea what tools others use). When this falsehood was refuted with a simple cut and paste from a lexicon and the Theological Wordbook of the OT (TWOT), you post again and ignore your prior false words and the evidence to show your opinion was wrong. Ignoring sin is not a virtue and Solomon wrote about hasty words and the tongue is a fire (the tongue in binary is also).
    2. You said "word search in a lexicon or concordance" would show a prophetess is the wife of a prophet. This is false.
    3. Experience is not the same as biblical truth. Experience is always viewed through the colored lenses of our own eyes. It doesn't make your experiences true or not but your view will be colored if you spent all this time "in hell" with a "prophetess" as you say. Backlash to anyone claiming such a thing would be normal after an experience such as that.
    4. I can say I have found no functioning prophet or prophetess as of yet. I hear many claim so but never one that is a prophet or prophetess from God because they always fail God's tests for legitimacy. But, this does not mean that there are none, it just means I have seen and heard many false ones. Elijah was the outnumbered many hundreds to one and the people probably thought he was a fake (until Mt. Carmel that is) but he still existed. Don't throw the bay out with the bath water brother Jerry.
    5. The office of prophet has changed but that doesn't preclude those who may be minor office holders. In the days of the OT prophets, there were learning prophets under the tutelage of recognized prophets. We have a few references ((1 Sam. 10: 11; 1 Sam. 19: 19-20; 2 Kgs. 2: 3, 5; 2 Kgs. 4: 38; 2 Kgs. 6: 1; Amos 7: 14) but it doesn't seem to mean all had the supernatural gift either so exactly what that means? Who knows but we know some had the gift and learned from the recognized office holder at the time. There is no reason that this should not be now that Messiah has taken office permanently.

    Grace and Peace,
    Jim

  • Fri Feb 13, 2009 10:11 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    To be quite honest with all of you, I have NEVER seen anyone operate in a true prophetic sense in the 11 years as a believer. All I have seen is a bunch of fickle christians looking for, and giving "words from the Lord" like a fix to a druggie.. I have prophecied at times, not even knowing that I was doing it, and later on saw the thing come to pass. However the ones who push words from the Lord are not genuine, in my experience. I believe all things spoken to another and said to be "Thus saith the Lord" had better be from the Lord. Plus, when christians think they are prophets (or add whatever title to their name), in my experience as well, they begin to try to Lord over all who are around them. I have experienced this to an extent that you folks probably have no idea. So, if I sound a bit against this subject matter, it is because I have lived through 11 years of hell with someone who thinks she is a "prophetess".. Hope this helps???

  • Fri Feb 13, 2009 9:56 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    This is where I am coming from.. Maybe I didn't explain myself well enough on my last post. I have a sister in the Lord whom works for me, and she has been a believer for about 40 years and has NEVER studied in any constructive way, yet she got involved with some cliques of christians who pretty much have a "word from the Lord" about everything negative that happens to "everybody else" around them. In other words, they all try to function as modern day prophets. This is NOT what the New Testament teaches whatsoever, as I was picking up from many of the posts on this blog yesterday, many were talking from this particular viewpoint. Here is a very good article on this subject for anyone who is interested; there are many great articles on this site as well as this man is a well seasoned, educated teacher whom is fluent in the Bible languages as well. Not that this is for everyone to be highly educated, however the Lord does raise up "some" in this fashion(referring to 1st Corinthians 1).
    http://cicministry.org/commentary/issue95.htm

    Enjoy!!
    JerryC

  • Fri Feb 13, 2009 8:52 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

    You still don't get it oldstudent. You have no clue about what I am talking about.

  • Fri Feb 13, 2009 8:42 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    star 2,

    the Scriptures never speak of any difference between "professional" ministry or "lay" ministry. If a teacher is a teacher, they are to teach and profession is not consider. The same qualities and functions and character traits are the same whether we want someone to do it for money or volunteer. Same with all the other positions and gifts. This is a problem we have, we think in terms that God doesn't.

    Character always is the key in elders. If one is a preacher or a teacher it matters none. The preacher may do many things physically for others but Criptures shows this to not be the ministry of an elder. If an elder is focusing on the physical needs of the flock then he is either not an elder and is in the office wrongly or he is an elder who is not allowing others who are to be deacons to fulfill their calling. Either way it is not good. It isn't about "profession" either.

    Prophet is not the same as preacher in Scripture. A preacher preaches and a prophet prophesies. Although a prophet can preach at times, they are not the same. To say they are the same is to mix the two functions and/or offices of which God says they are different. I may be misunderstanding what you mean but not what you are saying Star. Scripture makes the distinctions, I don't.

    Grace and Peace,
    Jim

  • Fri Feb 13, 2009 8:29 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

    part 2...

    Below is the NT prophetess;

    Strong's lexicon
    G4396--
    1) a prophetess
    2) a woman to whom future events or things hidden from others are at times revealed, either by inspiration or by dreams and visions
    3) a female who declares or interprets oracles

    Luke 2 and Rev 2 both have reference to a prophetess (1 good, 1 evil)

    Luke 2
    Anna From the temple when Jesus was dedicated) is not connected to a man and she is called a prophetess.

    Rev 2
    The woman jezebel calls herself a prophetess (false of course). No mention of a husband there.

    NT prophets,

    Agabus prophesied about and to Paul about specific things. Where did this prophecy come from? God or from elsewhere? It came from God (or we would have a record which shows Agabus to be a false prophet) and Agabus spoke for God in that situation. In fact, Agabus said the Spirit says this...(a claim of direct revelation from God!) and he is never rebuked! He performed the function and office (even if temporarily) as a prophet.

    We could go on about Simeon at the temple and such but the point is made.

    And yes, the NT "prophesy" does seem to have a wider range of meaning and exhortation seems to be one of those wider meanings but there is no limitation to that stated in Scripture.

    And please don't chastise others for not being able to use a lexicon or a concordance, proper usage of these tools would have pulled out this information very quickly.

    Grace and Peace,

  • Fri Feb 13, 2009 8:29 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

    jerryc,

    Joel 2
    28 "And afterward, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your old men will dream dreams, your young men will see visions.


    According to the Theological Wordbook of the OT (#1277), it means to speak for God as an oracle.

    According to Strong's Lexicon (H5012),
    1) to prophesy
    a) (Niphal)
    1) to prophesy
    a) under influence of divine spirit
    b) of false prophets
    b) (Hithpael)
    1) to prophesy
    a) under influence of divine spirit
    b) of false prophets

    None of the above says or even hints at not being God's spokesperson at a certain time, place or situation. In fact, God's word to the prophet Joel specifically says that "in that day..." and Peter said it was happening AFTER Jesus ascension which makes the interpretation of Jesus taking over the entire function as prophet (yes, He fulfills all three offices) against the plain and simple and natural reading of Scripture.


    Your interpretation is not based on a full study of the word prophet or prophecy otherwise, you wouldn't have performed eisegesis instead of exegesis.

    The permenant office holder of prophet is now Jesus and we would agree there but to say that a prophet doesn't speak for God directly as OT prophets did is not correct.

    As for prophetess specifically,

    Prophetess does not always mean "wife of a prophet" as you stated. There are numerous examples of prophetesses who are not connected to husbands in any way.

    OT

    Strong's lexicon (H5031)
    1) prophetess
    a) ancient type endowed with gift of song (Miriam)
    b) later type consulted for a word (Huldah)
    c) false prophetess (Noadiah)
    d) wife of Isaiah the prophet

    Huldah was a prophetess and the wife of Shallum (2 Chron 34). Shallum is not called a prophet nor is that alluded to either.

    Noadiah (Neh 6) is not connected to any husband nor a male prophet. She is a prophetess, a false one but she has to be one to be a false one.

    Deborah is called a prophetess but her husband is not. Her husband is not significant or a recorded prophet (jud 4).

    Miriam is called a prophetess (which may be a music maker but even the Theological Wordboook of the OT) doesn't make this claim as it is unclear if that is what is truly meant.

    The only woman from that list that COULD (not definitive by any means) be a prophetess by marriage to a prophet is in Isa 8.


    continued....

  • Fri Feb 13, 2009 1:38 pm Agree: 3   Disagree: 0

    oldstudent

    >>>Listing of human desired qualities in an elder/leader<<<


    I was not talking about desired qualitites in those who are called into the professional ministry. I was refering to characteristics of people who have the gift of Prophet, Server, Teacher, Exhorter, Giver, Ruler (Administrator), One who shows Mercy.

    I have had a Pastor who was gifted for Administration. Preaching was not his strength. Organizing and leading was. I had a Pastor who was gifted for Serving. Preaching was not his strength but helping people was. He would be quick to help someone in his church who needed help like going to the doctor, putting in an air-conditioner, fixing someone car's, picking up people for Church. His home was always open. Many times I would be at their house fellowshipping with them. I have had many Pastors who were gifted for teaching. They were very good at helping you understand the Word of God. I had a Pastor, a Southern Baptist Evangelist who God called into the Pastorate after 17 yrs in Evangelism, was gifted as a Prophet. There wasn't a service where people didn't get saved or repented from sin in their life. Mickey Bonner, the Southern Baptist Evangelist where I got a lot of this stuff from was an Exhorter.

    You have entirely misuderstood what I meant by what I said. People who are gifted as a Prophet preaches, for example, with a style that calls out sin, cuts things to pieces, and calls people to repentance. They tend to be blunt. It is with them 'repent or perish!'. This kind does little in terms of explaining anything. It is not in their way of thinking.

    Those who have the gift of teaching are always wanting to explain everything and do not approach preaching with the same kind of style that a Prophet does. Their focus is different. They want you to understand what God's Word says. The pastor I have now has the gift of teaching. He explains everything. Many times he will ask us after he has finished his sermon, "Did you learn something today?" The focus of a teacher's teaching is for you to understand what the Word of God says and not one where sin is focused on and a call to repent like it is with a person who is gifted as a Prophet. Calling people to repentance like a Prophet type would do isn't a focus nor is encouraging spiritual betterment a focus like it would be for one who is an exhorter.

    The main gist of an Exhorter is one of encouraging people to spiritual betterment and they too do not focus on explaining things like one who is gifted as a Teacher nor do they call out sin, cut things to pieces, and says repent or perish like a Prophet would.

  • Fri Feb 13, 2009 10:44 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    Hi Daniel Paul

    I guess Prophet was requesting jerryc for scripture to back up what he was sharing. Sometimes I quote or give scripture references sometimes I don't.

  • Fri Feb 13, 2009 10:34 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    "Can you please post your scriptural references?"

    Hey Star! Although I see your point in asking...it's always a good question to ask! I'm kind of a chapter and verse kind of person myself....

  • Fri Feb 13, 2009 2:02 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Prophet - have you gotten a word from God yet about Wilkerson's vision concerning the coming economic collapse?

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