Updated 04:40 pm.EST, Sat November 21, 2009

Education|Wed, Feb. 11 2009 08:52 AM EST

1 in 3 Americans Unfamiliar with Darwin's Tie to Evolution

By Katherine T. Phan|Christian Post Reporter

Charles Darwin may be an influential name in the scientific community for the theory of evolution but a new Gallup poll shows that roughly one-third of Americans have no clue who he is or what he's known for.

Ahead of his 200th birthday celebration on Feb. 12, a Gallup poll conducted over the weekend asked Americans the question: "For what scientific theory is Charles Darwin known?"

The Gallup weekly briefing on Tuesday showed that 55 percent of respondents correctly associated Darwin with the theory of evolution, theory of natural selection or his fundamental work Origin of Species. Another 10 percent gave incorrect answers while the other 34 percent said they didn't know who Darwin was or what scientific theory he was known for.

"Whether that's good or bad depends on your perspective," Frank Newport, Editor-in-Chief of The Gallup Poll, told KETV Channel 7 in Omaha.

"I think most of us would assume that even if you disagree with it that a higher percentage of Americans might at least know who Charles Darwin was or at least if he was associated with the theory of evolution."

Darwin, a 19th century British scientist, developed a theory of evolution occurring by the process of natural selection.

During his time, Darwin's theory was controversial because it was perceived as contradicting the biblical teaching on creation. Nearly 150 years since the publication of his Origin of Species, it remains a highly divisive issue among Americans.

The Pew Research Center's Forum on Religion & Public Life recently released a report showing the American public evenly divided on the question of whether or not evolution is the best explanation for life on earth, with 48 percent agreeing that it is and 45 percent rejecting the notion that evolution best explains the origins of human life.

The Pew Forum survey showed that the views on evolution differed widely across Christian communities. Evangelical Protestants were most likely to reject the idea of evolution (70 percent), according to the report originally released in 2008. Meanwhile, historically black Protestants were more likely than mainline Protestants to disagree that evolution best explains the origins of human life, 51 to 42 percent.

Roughly half of Orthodox Christians and Catholics, however, agreed that evolution best explains the development of life on earth.

As the Pew Forum pointed out, the Catholic Church's acceptance of the theory comes with the understanding that natural selection is a God-directed mechanism of biological development and that man's soul is the divine creation of God.

Some mainline churches have taken a similar stance, stating that evolution and creationism do not contradict each other.

While the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America has not issued a definitive statement on evolution, it does contend that "God created the universe and all that is therein, only not necessarily in six 24-hour days, and that God actually may have used evolution in the process of creation," as reported by the Pew Forum.

Another mainline denomination, the Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) affirms that evolution and the Bible do not contradict each other. But the Presbyterians are cautious and say it "should carefully refrain from either affirming or denying the theory of evolution."

Rejecting the theory of evolution altogether is the Southern Baptist Convention, the largest Protestant denomination in the country. Southern Baptists affirm their belief that creation science can be backed by scientific evidence "without any religious doctrines or concepts."

Evolution in Schools

The controversy surrounding evolution extends beyond church walls to public schools.

In recent years, some states, including Florida, have updated new science standards that mandate a more explicit and in-depth teaching of evolution. The Texas Board of Education, meanwhile, is considering dropping language in the current science curriculum that requires teachers to address "strengths and weaknesses" of scientific theory.

Critics have called such revisions a disservice to academic freedom and critical thinking in the classroom. While supporters of evolution have accused them of attempting to sneak in creationism or intelligent design in the classroom, critics of the new guidelines say evolution is not scientific dogma and that students should be able to explore flaws in the theory.

The Discovery Institute, an intelligent design think tank, for example, has been a vocal advocate of science standards that permit students to hear a balanced presentation on Darwinian theory.

And the majority of the public is on their side, says the Seattle-based organization.

A new nationwide Zogby poll of likely voters, commissioned by the Discovery Institute, indicates overwhelming public support for teaching the scientific evidence for and against Darwin’s theory. According to the poll, 80 percent of respondents agree that teachers and students should have the academic freedom to discuss both the strengths and weaknesses of evolution as a scientific theory.

Those who support teaching the "strengths and weaknesses" of evolution are part of a well-informed public and not a "right-wing conspiracy of know-nothings and religious extremists" as the media would suggest, says Discovery Institute’s Dr. John West.

Also, Democrats (82 percent) and liberals (86 percent) are even more likely than Republicans (73 percent ) and conservatives (72 percent) to support the position, according to the poll of 1,053 likely voters conducted Jan. 29-Jan. 31.

"That consensus includes Democrats, Republicans, liberals, moderates, independents, and every race, gender, and age group. The Darwin Lobby has isolated itself from public opinion," says West.

The poll also found that support for the position that "Biology teachers should teach Darwin’s theory of evolution, but also the scientific evidence against it," jumped to 78 percent, up from 69 percent in 2006.

Meanwhile, the percentage of likely voters who favor teaching only the evidence for evolution fell from 21 percent in 2006 to 14 percent this year.   "Clearly, the Darwin-only crowd is losing public support," observes West. "There seems to be a backlash against the strong-arm tactics that have been used in recent years to censor and intimidate scientists, teachers, and students who raise criticisms of Darwin."

Despite the ongoing debate over evolution, Darwin's theory will be a reason for celebration for many this year.

According to a website devoted to celebrations (darwinday.org) there are currently 639 events scheduled in 42 countries for Darwin Day 2009, including a conference hosted by the Vatican in March.

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  • Mon Feb 23, 2009 11:36 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    "Actually, the hi level engineering isn't going on in the coding."

    Oh really? I'm sorry DP, but you've overstretched.

    I'd sure like to ask then what understanding is required to say, create Microsoft or Google applications, & why this is high level why any comparable application platform (farm app you mentioned) which also requires coding then isn't high level? I'm sure you're familar with VB or C ++ right? Perl?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_language

    "Any code monkey can create the software with little to know understanding of what the program is actually producing."

    Erm, sorry, but major fail again. DP, software engineers build code for application platforms, but to do so they must comprehend many different computer languages (VB, C ++, Perl, PHP, & tons of others.)

    And these languages, like real languages use arguement statements in order to build Object Oriented apps (like a Internet Explorer window, or that Google toolbar) In order for them to work they must have understanding of what the statements do in relation to others & how they interact, & like a real sentence they must conform to an order to be comprehensible by the IO interface. That is, they must adhere to strict syntax & structure for anything to be produced, it's not mindless jamming at keys.

    That operating system you're using? Yep, it's built on a language too, & no, it's not something 'any monkey' can do as evident by the level of education required & the compensation involved for just entry level software engineers.

    "Creating a program simply is telling the computer how to handle the data."

    Not quite, this is overly simplistic. In a nutshell, it's right, but you make it out to sound as if it requires no training or education. It's also building the apps so they can function in unison with ALL the other apps.

    "It has no understanding of the data and,"

    Sure it does DP, the arguments the coding performs have to filter the data, it has no choice but to to be relevant to what is being performed.

    "neither does the programmer."

    The programmers have to account for the required variables so that when it's calculated & filtered the data at the presentation layer (the app) is comprehensible by the laymen in front of the screen.

    "The basis for the program is created with great input from farmers and AG manufacturing experts."

    Yeah, like how? All the farmers need to do is explain the annual variables, & the programmers do the input of the arguments of them so the output can be meaningful. some of it, like annual precipitation & weather patterns are entirely out of their control.

  • Mon Feb 23, 2009 11:20 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    "Having been raised around educated folks (many of them over-educated!) I can say there are plenty of folks with college degrees that ain't so bright themselves."

    Over educated, how does work? How does one become 'over educated'? life is an ever changing process in which new knowledge is continually growing, it's hard to suggest being knowledgeable, or even more so than the average would be of little utility.

    "Do you know what a college degree will get you now-a-days?"

    It will give on the opportunity to not have to work at a hole in the wall, like mcdonalds. Studies have also shown those who have degrees make more over their lives, quite a bit more too.

    "He said 80% of college grads never go into the field they studied."

    I don't know about that, some of the courses won't be used, I for instance don't use Linux at all, BUT some of those who graduated do, so the overall knowledge will be used but some more so than others. The emphasis is on becoming more educated, specialized & able to demonstrate ones work in the field prior to graduation to demonstrate that a candidate has applied skills which businesses need.

    "A degree shows that you can stick with something for 2,4 or 6 years and that you knew which answers went with which questions."

    I think you're talking of the old days, now many classes have lab scenarios where you have to actually use the knowledge in a demonstrated fashion. For instance, computer engineering schools require a person to use the coding to build robots which can perform in certain conditional scenarios, it's not simply a multiple choice thing.

    "Too many people with diploma's and degree's are no more smart than a USB thumb drive."

    And that's why those with the degrees generally are more successful in creating wealth for companies?

    "All the data is there and they can access it upon request but that's about it. They lack understanding."

    All what data is there? WHERE? Sure, the Internet is a great resource for finding it like a library, but having a formal education on the basics is required to perform most high level involvement in projects. One can't just 'wing it'.

    "Our educational system has said understanding is relative."

    ... where?

    "What you understand may not be what someone else understands."

    Not quite, there are things in which objective agreement is refereed to, but this in itself is not a philosophical truism, at least not always. It only means there is a consensus on a process or method.

    "Truth is relative...there are no absolutes". This concept has crippled our educational system."

    like how? I think you're referring more to humanities or social sciences, as opposed to math or science.

  • Mon Feb 23, 2009 11:06 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    DP,

    "Appearing less intelegent has it's advatages for them."

    Uh, how? sorry, but this just sounds like a cop out so you can attempt to rationalize their stupidity. 'they like to be dumb!' Seriously now, if they could demonstrate a higher aptitude they would get rewarded, usually with more pay, something anyone would take actions to ensure.

    "Most of them understand English better than many Americans."

    Erm, no. Sorry, you can't BS me on this, I'm from the SF bay area, & I knew plenty of them who couldn't speak a lick of English & were gardeners who got paid under the table.

    "As long as the boss feels superior to them they can make their money in peace."

    All they have to do is follow orders from perhaps one illegal who can quasi understand. It's not rocket science, simply gesturing with a motion of 'pick up bags of concrete' is fairly enough to get them into the motion.

    "It has been my experience most of the Mexican population is far smarter than people give them credit for."

    I'm not saying mexican, I'm saying illegal, and by far most in both categories aren't exactly represented in institutions of higher learning (colleges) to match their national demographics. IE, they in general don't overly value higher education.

    "I'm down here in the south. We have a large segment of Mexican population here."

    Sure, sure, just like California huh? Not.

  • Mon Feb 23, 2009 10:59 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    "It doesn't take much to have that anymore."

    I agree, a HS diploma is effectively worthless in demonstrating any real level of aptitude or expertise required of most possible positions.

    "Many of our students really don't know much. Here in SC our HS dropout rate is 40-50%."

    Sure, but this figure varies by states & region, & no doubt the circumstances in which the youth grew up in factor in.

    "Many construction companies require a level of knowledget to do anything besides pick up trash."

    But it doesn't take much formal knowledge to help carry cement bags or nail plywood like most illegal uneducated laborers do.

    "Even McDonald's requires being in school, a HS diploma or GED to work there."

    yeah, and? Like who doesn't have at least that in today's society? More over those that lack such credentials missed out on the concept of education loooong ago.

    "if you've been into a McDonald's lately you can see the state of our educational system."

    Actually I haven't in some years, BUT, such places (like Walmart & the like) are generally not 'careers' they are more supposed to be an 'in between job' for college or highschool kids.

    "Yep, them adults has a HS deeeploma!"

    then mcdonalds is all they get. if they put more emphasis on education it wouldn't be an issue.

  • Wed Feb 18, 2009 6:59 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    "THEY aren't the ones developing the coding to filter the data, that is where the hi level engineering is going on, not the end result of looking at symbols."

    Actually, the hi level engineering isn't going on in the coding. Any code monkey can create the software with little to know understanding of what the program is actually producing. Creating a program simply is telling the computer how to handle the data. It has no understanding of the data and, as a rule, neither does the programmer. The basis for the program is created with great input from farmers and AG manufacturing experts.

  • Wed Feb 18, 2009 11:54 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    "typical laborer workers in construction aren't known for being 'bright'"

    Having been raised around educated folks (many of them over-educated!) I can say there are plenty of folks with college degrees that ain't so bright themselves.

    The point is that ignorance is an equal opportunity issue! I've posted this before but...my dad called me into his office at the house about 3 months before I graduated from HS. "Do you know what a college degree will get you now-a-days?" I'm guessing the speech was next. "An interview...!" He said 80% of college grads never go into the field they studied. A degree shows that you can stick with something for 2,4 or 6 years and that you knew which answers went with which questions. He said that doesn't even mean you understood the question or the answer. These statements coming from a College Dean!

    Too many people with diploma's and degree's are no more smart than a USB thumb drive. All the data is there and they can access it upon request but that's about it. They lack understanding.

    Our educational system has said understanding is relative. What you understand may not be what someone else understands. "Truth is relative...there are no absolutes". This concept has crippled our educational system.

  • Wed Feb 18, 2009 11:46 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    "They can likely speak English as well as I comprehend Spanish, they can make do with little chit chat, but by an large they can't do it."

    Appearing less intelegent has it's advatages for them. Most of them understand English better than many Americans. As long as the boss feels superior to them they can make their money in peace.

    It has been my experience most of the Mexican population is far smarter than people give them credit for. I'm down here in the south. We have a large segment of Mexican population here.

    On one trip one of the guys was saying something about the forman (who had done some brick brain thing on the site). I, having lived in a Spanish speaking country in the past, could pick-up the idea of what he was saying. I turned around to look at him with a smile on my face. He was not use to a "white boy" understanding what he was saying! I said something about the forman being a bit on the nutsy side (in spanish) and they just laughed. I became one of the "good guys"!

  • Wed Feb 18, 2009 11:40 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    "Even HS equivalent knowledge?"

    It doesn't take much to have that anymore. Many of our students really don't know much. Here in SC our HS dropout rate is 40-50%.

    "I've done labor work in the past, looong ago."

    At this juncture I'm going to assume there is a bit of a generational gap issue here. Many construction companies require a level of knowledget to do anything besides pick up trash. Even McDonald's requires being in school, a HS diploma or GED to work there. So, if you've been into a McDonald's lately you can see the state of our educational system. Yep, them adults has a HS deeeploma!

  • Tue Feb 17, 2009 10:39 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    "Never worked on a job site have you?"

    I've done labor work in the past, looong ago.

    "Those "barely educated" Mexicans understand way more than you think for sure."

    Technical knowledge? Biological knowledge? Even HS equivalent knowledge? Anything college level? No, not generally.

    "That one didn't speak English. I told them I wasn't going to tell the forman."

    They can likely speak English as well as I comprehend Spanish, they can make do with little chit chat, but by an large they can't do it. I was raised in Cali, I know.

    "You'd be shocked at what these "common labor" folk have to know."

    I am just saying typical laborer workers in construction aren't known for being 'bright', not that they can't read an angle.

  • Tue Feb 17, 2009 10:29 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    "Much of what they look at makes meteorology look like childs play."

    So? THEY aren't the ones developing the coding to filter the data, that is where the hi level engineering is going on, not the end result of looking at symbols.

  • Tue Feb 17, 2009 10:27 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    "Evolution is NOT basic biology."

    Well i know that, but to explain WHY the organization of & taxonomic ranks exist, or to explain WHY these very obvious patterns of twin nested hierarchy exist & such you need a model to explain why & the predictions. Evolution is that model.

  • Tue Feb 17, 2009 10:25 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    "Geometry and Trig are basic math."

    I guess you have a point. It's basic in that most can comprehend it, but not basic in that most people actively require it for their work. I should've clarified that.

  • Tue Feb 17, 2009 10:23 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    DP, here , this shows how biological knowledge, evolution or not, is relevant, creates jobs & wealth

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JNcLKbJs3xk

  • Tue Feb 17, 2009 10:02 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    "he's just looking at the pretty symbols & messages which is the end result of filtered the data. "

    Ummm...no. You abviously are one of those people who still think of Green Acres when you think of farming.

    You might want to watch some programs on RFDTV once in a while. Much of what they look at makes meteorology look like childs play. They use all that data to do field yeild projections and cost analysis. They track soil conditions. In fact, call your local extension agent and ask him/her about what kind of data and technical knowledge your medium-high tech farmer has to know. You'd be shocked.

  • Tue Feb 17, 2009 9:57 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    "Trig is not basic math DP, basic math is basic like addition, subtraction, multiplication, division"

    To me, addition, subtraction, multiplication and division are foundational math. Just like 1's and 0's are basic math to a computer. Geometry and Trig are basic math.

    When you start getting into the math of quantum physics...then we're talking math!

  • Tue Feb 17, 2009 9:53 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    "but they will use basic biology & that is what's taught at that level. "

    Evolution is NOT basic biology. To do more than write down what they tell you to requires far more understanding of science than what is taught at a HS level. Once again, teaching evolution in Jr/Sr High is a waste of classroom time.

  • Tue Feb 17, 2009 9:51 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    "But construction laborers definitely don't need it, the plethora of illegal immigrants who're barely educated vouch for that."

    Never worked on a job site have you? Those "barely educated" Mexicans understand way more than you think for sure. I was working with a commercial roofing company for about 3 months (travel) just before I got custody of the children. I walked up to a group of them and asked "OK...whose the designated English speaker?" All but one burst out laughing! That one didn't speak English. I told them I wasn't going to tell the forman. After all, if the boss knew they spoke English they'd NEVER get anything done.

    Common labor has to use a thing called a "speed square". Go to Lowe's or Home Depot and look at one in the tool section. Look at the book that says how to use one. You'd be shocked at what these "common labor" folk have to know.

  • Tue Feb 17, 2009 7:16 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    "99.9% of HS graduates will never use evolution in the course of their lives."

    probably not, but they will use basic biology & that is what's taught at that level.

  • Tue Feb 17, 2009 7:11 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    "So, you're saying that stores like Walmart... should have their laundry supplies for sale outside?"

    You mentioned Chlorine in gas form (not liquid) which would be more of a concern in doors as inhalation aint too good for da lungs. I am not sure if any grocery chains hold gas forms of chlorine, but liquid of course they do as it's used in laundry like you said. Basically, you conflated the issue by implying it had to be in gas form. I think putting it in liquid form has something to do with the stability of it, & it ensures less brick heads would die using it. Who uses gaseous chlorine to clean clothes anyway DP?

    " You sound like someone who may not do your own shopping as a rule...."

    Uh, huh, and in which grocery store does one buy gaseous chlorine anyway???

  • Tue Feb 17, 2009 7:04 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    DP,

    "My guess is you went to college, got your degree and have worked in the specialty workforce most of your life. Am I close?"

    Pretty much, 2 degrees though. But getting a degree & then getting more specialized is what occurs, so we can't but help to find some if not many parts of knowledge from HS entirely useless as everyones path is unique. For my career it makes not a difference if I even studied biology, or the evolutionary model explaining it, BUT for others this isn't the case as they use this knowledge daily.

    "Most HS graduates end up in jobs where they needed more understanding of basic math principles like geometry and trig."

    Trig is not basic math DP, basic math is basic like addition, subtraction, multiplication, division. I'm not trying to sell evolution in itself, but rather knowledge in bioology.


    "The basis of Trig are triangles, especially those with right angles. This is used in construction quite a bit."

    But construction laborers definitely don't need it, the plethora of illegal immigrants who're barely educated vouch for that. A formen, sure, but not a general laborer.

    "Quite a few more people are involved with construction than evolution based biology."

    Ok, your point? Pure numbers doesn't equate to utility.

    I'm a master gardener. I can tell you that geometry and trig a part in Agriculture. "

    Oh please, no gardeners need any math, all they need to know is to understand symmetry & what is & isn't aesthetically pleasing to the eye. it's not rocket science.

    "Much of the new equipment is computer controlled and programmed with formulas for planting, spraying and ferting."

    So? The code that tells the sprinkler how to function doesn't have to be understood by the dolt who plugs it in & presses the timing buttons.


    "GPS controlled navigation on the tractors actually drive the tractor to insure minimum overspray."

    So? The tractor driver doesn't have to know anything about GPS or how it fuctions to let it do its thing in helping him with his job. Y

    "Equipment on the tractor takes soil samples and can measure crop yeilds. "

    It calculates based on weight/volume....big woop.

    "That data is fed into the farmers computer and a terrian model with overlays concerning all biological and math factors effecting maximum yeild. So much for dumb cow hands...."

    The cow hand hic isn't developing THAT code or the equations which run it, he's just looking at the pretty symbols & messages which is the end result of filtered the data. He's no more smarter than a person who responds to a traffic light.

  • Tue Feb 17, 2009 4:43 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Got a board meeting to go to. Be back later.

  • Tue Feb 17, 2009 4:43 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    "once one becomes specialized many of the skills & knowledge we obtained in HS are nominally used as best."

    My guess is you went to college, got your degree and have worked in the specialty workforce most of your life. Am I close?

    Most HS graduates end up in jobs where they needed more understanding of basic math principles like geometry and trig. Geometry is actually used in the shipping departments of many companies. I can tell who had a knowledge of geometry and who didn't based on how the pallets are stacked for shipment. No joke!

    The basis of Trig are triangles, especially those with right angles. This is used in construction quite a bit. We used trig and geometry to do siding. It's one of those things that if you haven't done it you really don't understand it's far more involved than snip and nail for sure. Quite a few more people are involved with construction than evolution based biology.

    I'm a master gardener. I can tell you that geometry and trig a part in Agriculture. Much of the new equipment is computer controlled and programmed with formulas for planting, spraying and ferting. GPS controlled navigation on the tractors actually drive the tractor to insure minimum overspray. Equipment on the tractor takes soil samples and can measure crop yeilds. That data is fed into the farmers computer and a terrian model with overlays concerning all biological and math factors effecting maximum yeild. So much for dumb cow hands....

    The reason many students don't use what they learn is because they don't know how. Education has become about transfering data from the teachers brain into the students brain. I had a college math teacher who helped write the textbook. He told me it didn't matter if I understood how the math worked as long as I could get the right answer on the calculator.... We don't teach children how to learn. We teach them data. This is not how to educate children. It's how we clone computers....

  • Tue Feb 17, 2009 4:28 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    "ID is a human constructed concept, it doesn't intrinsically exist in nature outside of our doing."

    That's my point. Most jobs are of human constructed concept. 99.9% of HS graduates will never use evolution in the course of their lives. Yet, it is taught for more that 6 grade levels. Meanwhile, we are not using that time to teach science most will use in one form or another.

    As for Clemson...they are wonderfully located in the sticks! They are about 20-30 minutes from any major city.

  • Tue Feb 17, 2009 4:24 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    "Then it wouldn't be prudent to bring it indoors in the first place"

    So, you're saying that stores like Walmart, Kroger, Bi-Lo, Ingles, Red Owl, Kmart and the rest should have their laundry supplies for sale outside? I just don't see that happening. You sound like someone who may not do your own shopping as a rule....

  • Tue Feb 17, 2009 1:17 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    "Yep, glad I learned evolution. It sure did help with controling the electromechanical automation in the room...not! I"

    DP, it's not universally applicable knowledge, just like calculus, trig, or geometry isn't. Very few HS subjects are, once one becomes specialized many of the skills & knowledge we obtained in HS are nominally used as best.

  • Tue Feb 17, 2009 1:15 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    "You'll start to care. Then you'll die of chlorine gas poisoning. In that quantity it can kill an entire store full of people"

    Then it wouldn't be prudent to bring it indoors in the first place, such a thing like liquid Methane would be kept outside for a reason.

  • Tue Feb 17, 2009 1:13 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    "Yep, and in 99.9% of those types of work evolution plays absolutely no part at all. That's my point.

    It's biology, not evolution, that they gut fundamental understanding of in HS. This does translate to knowledge in other areas, especially healthcare.

    'Clemson and all..'

    Clemson aint quite in the sticks.

  • Tue Feb 17, 2009 1:11 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    "Computer controlled equipment does require these if they involve controlling chemicals."

    Well, then they're be more working with chemical using computer technology, & not just computer technology itself. Not quite the same thing.

    "That liquid requires an MSDS sheet."

    From what I recall, Apple already uses liquid cooled. But I think you're right, in time some brick head will think it's ok or be dared to drink some. Most people who work on computers are already savy & aren't going to shy away from working with chemistry, even if it's liquid. If they can read or use Google, they're good to go. If they can change oil, they can do that, it's basically coolant.

  • Tue Feb 17, 2009 1:06 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    "It's a model which applies to very little in real life."

    In the abstract yes, it only applies to life itself & how it changes over time. It doesn't explain cosmology, gravity or other jazz, just biology

    "ID applies more in real life work world applications."

    ID is a human constructed concept, it doesn't intrinsically exist in nature outside of our doing.

  • Tue Feb 17, 2009 12:40 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    "Evolution is the model."

    It's a model which applies to very little in real life. ID applies more in real life work world applications.

  • Tue Feb 17, 2009 12:39 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    "I don't see how. I work in IT, knowing chemistry or physics isn't a pre-req to ANY degrees in IT I'm familiar with, can you list some?"

    Computer controlled equipment does require these if they involve controlling chemicals. Computers are now moving to liquid cooling (that's right...put liquid in a tube inside the case...talk about the potential for the darwin awards). That liquid (unless someone is just using water) requires an MSDS sheet.

  • Tue Feb 17, 2009 12:37 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    "I hate to break it to you DP, but HS isn't for specialized knowledge, it's for foundational knowledge."

    Exactly. Teach them some useful knowledge.

  • Tue Feb 17, 2009 12:35 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    "in certain regions certain types of work are more common than others"

    Yep, and in 99.9% of those types of work evolution plays absolutely no part at all. That's my point.

    I did notice that you didn't post anything about my backward part of the country with Clemson and all....

  • Tue Feb 17, 2009 12:33 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    $1 million highend output systems for the graphics industry using various chemicals (many of which do bad things if they get mixed). Printing presses. I worked at Hitachi once working in the "banding" room where picture tubes haven't been sealed yet. Let me tell you about needing a knowledge of physics. Only 3 people worked in that room (about the size of 2 basketball courts) per shift. If the system (conveyered) wasn't 'just right' tubes would blow up shooting glass up to 50'. Yep, glad I learned evolution. It sure did help with controling the electromechanical automation in the room...not! I moved from there to a clean-room manufacturing the "guns" for the tubes. I worked in radio and did A/V technical work since I was in kindergraden. Electrical Engineering has no need of evolution.

    It seems you really are having a difficult time coming to grips with the fact that evolution really has little practical application to 99.9% of HS graduates who enter the work world. It's just really not that useful.

  • Tue Feb 17, 2009 12:24 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    "Nope, & I don't care as I never worked as some forklift driver at a grocery store. Let 'ralph' with the nifty walmart name tag figure it out"

    You'll start to care. Then you'll die of chlorine gas poisoning. In that quantity it can kill an entire store full of people if it gets into the air handler. It's a MAJOR health threat. To bad cow hand 'ralph' didn't know about it because he was busy learning evolution in science class....

  • Tue Feb 17, 2009 12:09 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    "Evolution plays no part in anything IT whatsoever. Again, tech advancement is the result of ID."

    Dp, I wasn't implying that. I was trying to imply that, although the USA as a whole is very much a functionally diverse workforce, in certain regions certain types of work are more common than others. That is, in certain areas IT is more common than the national average, or farming is more common than the national average.

  • Mon Feb 16, 2009 11:57 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    "Teach evolution in the class with genetics."

    They don't even teach that yet, students get some basics on genetics, but the evolutionary evidence related isn't part of it. They'll explain the function of genes before explaining evolutionary evidence like ERV's.

    "Evolution is specialty knowledge which is only useful in specialty fields."

    It's biology, not evolution. Evolution is the model. Gravity explains the physics like evolution explains the biology.

    "If our students had a better understanding of Geometry, Trig and Calc along with the basics of science our students would be able to get better jobs."

    No doubt, they need higher standards.

    "I just don't see evolution as promoting the high tech market."

    It's more biological understanding which is useful & relevant, not specifically on just evolution.

  • Mon Feb 16, 2009 11:48 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    "Just FYI, I was born and raised for the most part in the Twin Cities area of MN. There's just a few high tech companies there like 3M, Bell & Howell, Univac and the list goes on. Evolution wasn't very useful there either."

    But biological science & the companies which depend on the knowledge is.

  • Mon Feb 16, 2009 11:42 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    "Do you know what happens if a pallet comes to a grocery store with bleach on the bottom, laundry soap on the top and the bleach bottles burst under the pressure?"

    Nope, & I don't care as I never worked as some forklift driver at a grocery store. Let 'ralph' with the nifty walmart name tag figure it out.

    "Just to stock grocery shelves safely requires a basic knowledge of chemical safety which is NOT generally taught."

    Maybe it has something to do with the fact that not too many people want to work at a place like Walmart and stock grocery shelves have opted for college? Learning & understanding the order for products based on chemistry is something the stores can train their employees on, just like they can teach people at Home Depot to drive a forklift. It's not rocket science. It's basic 'don't mix this with that' plus all the warning labels & jazz, plus all the classes on it.

    "Why not? No time.... Need that time to teach evolution!"

    Hmmm...choices now. a population who're knowledgeable in biology & can go on to be doctors, geneticists, or work in science fields advancing knowledge of humanity....OR, a population which can stack shelves. Tough choice.

    "Evolution is much more helpful in todays work environment then some useless knowledge like chemical safety and MSDS."

    I agree, refer to 'gene therapy' and you would too.

    "Did you know that most companies have to take production time to teach MSDS safety?"

    Ahhhh, here's my violin. Did you know most other employees of other positions also have to learn new things too? Life is a continual learning process.

    "I've run some fairly high tech equipment in my day."

    Like? That's all nice DP, but you're not everyone, there is no real universally applicable knowledge outside of english for HS kids.

  • Mon Feb 16, 2009 11:29 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    DP

    "but time is spent teaching evolution instead of the basic science needed for those high tech jobs."

    I hate to break it to you DP, but HS isn't for specialized knowledge, it's for foundational knowledge. They don't teach organic chemistry in HS biology as it's too advanced & requires pre req courses, like biology! The USA workforce is quite functional diverse, and as such specialists are required in fields. There is no really 'universally applicable HS knowledge' outside of basic English, even higher level maths as I noted aren't universally used in all professions. So just b/c not 99% of people in all jobs don't use X HS knowledge doesn't therefore translate to it not being useful.

    The days of just knowing how to read a hazmat label of knowing just how to write are loooong gone.

    "I've work in the computer industry and high tech production. None of it required a knowledge of evolution."

    Hi tech production of what? hi tech production sounds like manufacturing, not quite what I meant, but more hi tech than a cow hand. BUT for those who work in biological sciences, such biological knowledge is useful. By 'hi tech' I wasn't referring to just IT, there is bio tech & others after all.

    "They DID require a knowledge of basic physics and chemistry."

    I don't see how. I work in IT, knowing chemistry or physics isn't a pre-req to ANY degrees in IT I'm familiar with, can you list some?

    "the usefulness of a knowledge of evolution isn't even worth mentioning concerning todays workforce."

    This depends. It's contingent on IF the students even go to college & what they choose as their profession. If they choose to get into any of the bio technology type careers, then yes, it matters.

    "It is a useless concept to 99.9% of HS graduates"

    It's only useless if they don't use it later in life, by your logic we should dump everything that also doesn't get used by 99% of the HS graduates, which would be about everything but English as no knowledge in HS is so universally applicable to all professions. Ask the Japanese if it's useless, they have some of the best labs in the world.

    "yet it takes up valuable classroom time for years."

    Oh no, 3 whole semesters of intro to bio, bio, & basic chemistry. Oh dear! You act like they devote whole courses to evolution, they don't. They teach the principle of evolution as a model to explain biology, it's a subset within biology.

    "Let's teach children something 99.9% of students will use like how to read an MSDS sheet"

    99.9% would never use that, all those IT related jobs never use it. Medical jobs? Never.

    "and understand warnings on products."

    This is like common knowledge. If they can't read a warning label, then they probably didn't graduate HS in the first place.

    "Let's teach chemical interaction and safety."

    Why so we can teach them how to be bomb technicians & terrorists?

  • Mon Feb 16, 2009 11:25 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    "Certain regions are stronger in certain job sectors than others (silicon valley for IT for instance)."

    Evolution plays no part in anything IT whatsoever. Again, tech advancement is the result of ID.

  • Mon Feb 16, 2009 11:22 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    "even a small minority who DO go onto to college"

    My dad was Dean of a College. Evolution was of no use anywhere in the college or grad school. So, yes, I actually do know something about college. I did go to college. I didn't finish.

    Still, with the field of computers what was taught to the Freshmen was obsolete buy our Senior year. Now, what's taught to the Freshmen is already mostly obsolete. A freind of mine makes good money as an MCSE. He only has a 2 year degree and it wasn't in anything technical. Evolution has no value in any computer field. The only things that "evolve" are types of viruses which are designed to evolve. Still, Norton will wack 'em....

  • Mon Feb 16, 2009 11:13 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    ""Evolution simply isn't useful."
    Gene therapy ring a bell?"

    That's fine. Teach evolution in the class with genetics. Don't waste valuable 6-12 science class time with it. Evolution is specialty knowledge which is only useful in specialty fields.

    If our students had a better understanding of Geometry, Trig and Calc along with the basics of science our students would be able to get better jobs. I just don't see evolution as promoting the high tech market. Machines don't "evolve". They are redesigned through a process of Intelegent Design (at least that's the idea) and then manufactured.

  • Mon Feb 16, 2009 11:10 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    "Ol brick brain there just nominated himself for the darwin awards."

    Ol brick brain was an owners nephew...you'll get no arguement from me on that one.

  • Mon Feb 16, 2009 11:03 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Just FYI, I was born and raised for the most part in the Twin Cities area of MN. There's just a few high tech companies there like 3M, Bell & Howell, Univac and the list goes on. Evolution wasn't very useful there either.

  • Mon Feb 16, 2009 11:02 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    ""I live near 2 major universities!"

    Liberty U isn't a major university."

    That would be Clemson and Furman ... not Liberty. Clemson is now developing the ICAR facility along with BMW for tech development in the Auto industry. Furman...who knows what their doing besides being liberal.

    I was unaware you didn't think Clemson was involved with high end high tech biology. Perhaps you could go to their website and learn about all their projects they are working on in their science department.

    "SO WHAT. 'YOUR area' isn't the 'the usa', it's a small region (city) OF the USA. "

    Actually, the North American headquarters of Michelin tires are here Ryobi tools (who makes Craftsmen just to name a few). Hitachi's only plant for picture tubes and bulbs was here (they made tubes for their own plus Panasonic and a few others). The BMW USA plant where the Z series and X series are made (I'm told the cars for the Bond film came from our plant.)

    Why...our little corner is just full of international high tech manufacturing and development. In fact, way more is made here. The company that manufactures special desert vehicles for the ARMY is in the area and the owner goes to our church.

  • Mon Feb 16, 2009 10:50 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    "none of those claims have a thing to do with the facts of evolution."

    This article isn't about the facts of evolution. It's about the fact that 1 in 3 people have no idea who Darwin is in relation to evolution. I ways back I posted that it was a fine example of the lack of effectiveness of our educational system.

  • Mon Feb 16, 2009 10:47 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    "Knowledge advances over time, things change, & new knowledge is required for the the newer, generally high tech higher paying jobs. This country needs high tech knowledge based workforce, not cow hands."

    Again, you make my point for me. "This country needs high tech knowledge" but time is spent teaching evolution instead of the basic science needed for those high tech jobs. I've work in the computer industry and high tech production. None of it required a knowledge of evolution. They DID require a knowledge of basic physics and chemistry. Again, the usefulness of a knowledge of evolution isn't even worth mentioning concerning todays workforce. It is a useless concept to 99.9% of HS graduates yet it takes up valuable classroom time for years. Let's teach children something 99.9% of students will use like how to read an MSDS sheet and understand warnings on products. Let's teach chemical interaction and safety. Do you know what happens if a pallet comes to a grocery store with bleach on the bottom, laundry soap on the top and the bleach bottles burst under the pressure? Just to stock grocery shelves safely requires a basic knowledge of chemical safety which is NOT generally taught. Why not? No time.... Need that time to teach evolution! After all, that's more important the some red herring like chemical safety and understanding MSDS which almost every work environment has some of.

    I'm sure you're right Ifeelfine72. Evolution is much more helpful in todays work environment then some useless knowledge like chemical safety and MSDS. Did you know that most companies have to take production time to teach MSDS safety?

    I've run some fairly high tech equipment in my day. I can tell you I didn't need to know evolution. I will say that evolution may be more useful to a cow hand though.... :-)

  • Mon Feb 16, 2009 7:58 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    AgentOrange: I am glad that you are taking time to refute DP's claims but they are all red herrings and strawmen - none of those claims have a thing to do with the facts of evolution.

  • Mon Feb 16, 2009 7:52 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    "Here, here, Daniel Paul! Well said!"

    yeaaah, go team go!


    "I also endured the '80s and agree with you. Knowledge of evolution did not help me advance in the Army nor did it help me get or keep my job as lab tech at an aluminum plant."

    So what. YOU aren't everyone. For some, even a small minority who DO go onto to college (cause it appears you admitted you didn't) & into the jobs after it DOES matter, that's the point. Knowledge advances over time, things change, & new knowledge is required for the the newer, generally high tech higher paying jobs. This country needs high tech knowledge based workforce, not cow hands.

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