Updated 04:40 pm.EST, Sat November 21, 2009

Society|Wed, Feb. 18 2009 08:25 AM EST

Calif. Legislative Committee Backs Efforts to Overturn Prop. 8

By Lawrence Jones|Christian Post Reporter

A legislative committee in California approved on Tuesday a resolution that puts members of the Assembly on record opposing the validity of Proposition 8, the state's constitutional ban on gay marriage.

The Assembly Judiciary Committee voted 7-3 in favor of a resolution asking the Supreme Court to overturn the measure, which was approved by voters in November.

Although it is non-binding, House Resolution 5 states that the Assembly opposes Proposition 8 because it is "an improper revision, not an amendment, of the California Constitution" and should have been approved by a two-thirds vote of each house of the Legislature before being submitted to the voters.

The resolution, sponsored by Democratic Assemblyman Tom Ammiano of San Francisco, now heads to the full Assembly.

A similar measure, Senate Resolution 7, has been introduced by Democratic Senator Mark Leno of San Francisco, the first openly gay man elected to the state Senate, according to his Web site. The measure, almost identical to HR, is slated to be considered by the Senate Judiciary Committee in coming weeks.

Committee members who voted in favor of the House Resolution say a constitutional right cannot be nullified regardless of how many people vote for it.

Those who voted against HR 5 say the resolution is not binding and that the Legislature should not try to influence the Court's ruling.

Groups that backed Proposition 8 say the Legislature should be focused on more important matters, like the economic crisis, not a challenge to the amendment. They also contend it was legal to put the measure directly before voters because it did not amount to a constitutional revision.

ProtectMarriage.com, which ran the campaign to pass Proposition 8, has called the non-binding resolutions meaningless and a waste of time.

Earlier on Tuesday, the National Organization of Marriage asked supporters to contact legislators, urging them to uphold the "will of more than 7 million Californians" who approved the measure.

"The California Constitution gives the people of California the right to propose and adopt amendments," states the NOM letter to California lawmakers.

"The courts may consider the validity of an amendment. The separation of powers demands that the legislature now step aside and defer to the expressed will of the people."

In November, 52 percent of Californian voters approved Proposition 8. The measure, which amended the state Constitution to define marriage as between a man and a woman, overturned the California Supreme Court decision last year that legalized same-sex marriage. In a decision issued in May 2008, the Court had overruled a law passed by state voters in 2000 that banned same-sex marriage.

The state High Court has scheduled oral arguments on three lawsuits challenging the amendment to begin March 5. In the meantime, it has refused to allow same-sex couples to resume marrying before it rules.

The Court will decide on the validity of Proposition 8, whether the measure was improperly enacted and if it takes away a fundamental right from a minority group.

Dozens of groups have filed briefs in support of the measure, most arguing that the amendment was not a drastic revision to the state Constitution but rather a reaffirmation of traditional marriage. They also contend that a definition of marriage limiting the union to a man and woman is similar to exclusions based on age and monogamy.

If Supreme Court Justices uphold Proposition 8, they must decide whether the measure would retroactively nullify the 18,000 same-sex marriages that took place in the state.

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  • Wed Feb 25, 2009 10:43 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 7

    "1Jo 4:18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves punishment, and the one who fears is not perfected in love. "

    Mat 5:48 "Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

    Perfect love comes from a sinless God. Perfect love casts out fear because it casts out sin. Perfect love does not embrace sin as you do with your homosexuality. Fear is cast out because sin is cast out.

    Rom 6:1-3 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it? Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death?

    Why do you "continue in sin" which Paul defined a few chapters before this and think it's OK? Do you not understand the Scripture?

  • Wed Feb 25, 2009 10:35 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 7

    "the fact that believing homosexual marriages are filled with the fruit of the spirit in the same way as believing heterosexual marriages are,"

    You can believe it if you want. The Holy Spirit I know doesn't abide with willful sin. It grieves the spirit to do so.

    Eph 4:22-23 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;

    Eph 4:27 Neither give place to the devil.

    Eph 4:30 And grieve not the Holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

    The word for affection in Romans 1 and the word for lust in Ephesians 4:22 both translate "concupiscence" meaning a desire for sexual intimacy. It grieves the Holy Spirit to be involved in any form of sexual intimacy outside of marriage.

    Are you saying the Spirit will bear fruit in a life where He is grieved?

  • Wed Feb 25, 2009 10:30 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 6

    "I have declared to both Jews and Greeks that they must turn to God in repentance and have faith in our Lord Jesus." Acts 20:21.

    "For you know that even afterwards, when he (Esau) desired to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, for he found no place for repentance, though he sought for it with tears."
    Hebrews 12:17.

    No repentance = No salvation.

    No opinion, no interpretation...this is a steadfast teaching throughout the whole of Scripture.

  • Wed Feb 25, 2009 9:28 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 6

    feet, so are you also saying God hates us, because Hebrews teaches that if we are a child of God and we disobey God, He will chastise us and according to you if we chastise someone we hate them, so does that mean God hates us when He chastises us as His child? Once again your rants are both fruitless and groundless!

  • Wed Feb 25, 2009 9:25 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 6

    feet, just because you accuse those of us who love God and show that by obeying His commands of being under the law that in no way proves we are under the law. And in fact based on your desire to willfully violate God's original and only design for marriage and sexual intimacy, it could very well be you who are still under the law.

  • Wed Feb 25, 2009 8:19 am Agree: 4   Disagree: 1

    you are absolutely right. im saying, the fact that believing homosexual marriages are filled with the fruit of the spirit in the same way as believing heterosexual marriages are, is an affidavit as to where the spirit rests. wherever the spirit rests is what is of and approved by god. any test of the spirit nullifies an interpretation of the law, because we are led by and serve of the spirit........because we are not under the law.



    all of you on the other hand have no use for the spirit, or its fruit, because you are under the law. and whatever one is under is what they are led by and serve.

    again you give evidence that you have no knowledge of god's love, because you appear to know it only according to rules of obedience.

    "if i chastize others for violating my interpretation of the law, it shows i love god."

    is that different than terroists screaming " god is great" as they chop off the head of a supposed sinner.

    1john4:18There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love.

    19We love because he first loved us. 20If anyone says, "I love God," yet hates his brother, he is a liar. For anyone who does not love his brother, whom he has seen, cannot love God, whom he has not seen.

    you apparently do not know god's love because the only way can equate god's love is by being obedient to your interpretation to scripture. that is why you can say those denegating things to your brother and call it god's love.

  • Tue Feb 24, 2009 1:35 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 5

    feet, your assumptions are comical, if one obeys God's commands then they cannot be loving others and are under the law, when God's Word is clear if we love God we'll obey His commands which are sumaarized in the Great Commandment and not just the 2nd part of it!

  • Tue Feb 24, 2009 1:11 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 4

    feet, the problem I have with your "test" mentality is that it's still in process. Yes, you may have escaped the burning airplane by jumping out the door and you may think you're safe now. The problem is there is the ground and gravity works.

    There will be solid ground at the base of the throne of God where our beliefs will be judged according to His standards. Those who accept and do what Jesus commanded and explained through His original apostles will have a soft landing. Those who didn't...well... (just change the first letter to an h).

  • Tue Feb 24, 2009 1:08 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

    One common trait of those who suffer from massive codependency is that they think they are being loving by being codependent. It isn't until they understand that allowing the person to do what is harmful to all involved (and God is involved when we are using His word) that real healing and change comes.

  • Tue Feb 24, 2009 12:32 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 2

    "what i say supports my understanding of the law"

    If you are free from quicksand you don't swim around in it anymore. You see it for what it is and don't want to be anywhere near it.

    It is not your understanding of the law which I take issue with. It's you're understanding of freedom from the law I take issue with. Those who are free from the law are no longer trapped by it in their actions.

  • Tue Feb 24, 2009 12:29 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 3

    " they are automatically of love."

    1Cr 13:4-7 Love is patient, love is kind {and} is not jealous; love does not brag {and} is not arrogant, does not act unbecomingly; it does not seek its own, is not provoked, does not take into account a wrong {suffered,} does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth; bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.


    So, what DOES love have to say about this? "does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth"

    What is unrighteousness? Let's look at whatelse Paul wrote back in Romans 1:26-27 (which states the truth as a stand alone truth).

    Homosexuality is clearly written in Romans as unrighteousness. I do not rejoice in unrighteousness and I don't rejoice in the fact that you apparently do.

    "believes all things" has always been an interesting statement. The problem with "love" is that we tend to overlook the truth in favor of codependent behavior. If you love someone you will believe the bad along with the good and help them to see the bad for what it is.

    The Biblical definition of love does not support your arguement.

  • Tue Feb 24, 2009 12:21 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 1

    here again you attempt to camoflage the spirit of your words by saying because what i say supports my understanding of the law, they are automatically of love.

    no wonder you are dedicated to remaining under the law, look at the license you feel you are given for the sake of the law.

    1cor13 has a different understanding.


    1If I SPEAK IN THE TONGUES OF MEN AND ANGELS, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and ALL KNOWLEDGE(ALL LAW), and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames,[b] but have not love, I gain nothing.

  • Tue Feb 24, 2009 11:53 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 3

    "otherwise they would be pouring out that love on their brothers,"

    Rev 3:19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

    We have been pouring out the love of God. We chasten those who live in sin in the hopes they will repent and come to a saving knowledge of the Christ. It is you who reject the love of God and call it persecution.

  • Tue Feb 24, 2009 11:51 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 3

    "if it feels like persecution that's exactly what it is"

    Rev 3:19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

    Pro 3:11 My son, despise not the chastening of the LORD; neither be weary of his correction:

    The obedient son knows the Father loves him.
    The dishonerable son thinks his Father is persecuting him.

    Your own beliefs condemn you.

  • Tue Feb 24, 2009 11:16 am Agree: 3   Disagree: 1

    paul says we are no longer under the law throughout romans
    and again in galatians without dispensation.

    you say ""feet, when are you ever going to learn what it means to be under the law and to be no longer under the law?"

    among the numerous sources i have romans 7 to back up my claim. what do you have.

    and marg anything that is without love is nothing and gains nothing. avoid being injured by words of "nothing."

    if it walks like a duck quacks like a duck.............if it feels like persecution that's exactly what it is.

    you are called to love yourself in the same way that god loves you.

    those who do those things have no understanding of how god loves them. otherwise they would be pouring out that love on their brothers, regardless of a disagreement over a point in the law. they would never thru that difference attempt to denigate your heart.

  • Tue Feb 24, 2009 10:39 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 3

    "paul says in the new covenant we are not under the law and are to be led by and serve of the spirit. it has done little to mitigate 1700 years of believers "

    Not all who claim the name of Christ are believers. Many claim the name of Jesus and then twist the Word of God to suit their desires. An example would be those who twist Romans 1:26-27 and say it really doesn't contemn all homosexuality. The 1700 years of "believers" continues even today.

  • Tue Feb 24, 2009 10:36 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    "feet, when are you ever going to learn what it means to be under the law and to be no longer under the law?"

    Good question....

  • Tue Feb 24, 2009 10:35 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    "you preach that sin is sin and some is convicted of their sins and you hurt their feelings with God's Word, not your words, they say you have been offensive to God and your brother and you have no love."

    Didn't Paul call that "another gospel"?

  • Tue Feb 24, 2009 8:28 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

    feet, when are you ever going to learn what it means to be under the law and to be no longer under the law?

  • Mon Feb 23, 2009 11:51 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 1

    im not fed up with anyone's statements. anyone should be free to make what comments they chose, within the guidelines of this website. it is rare to have a site that doesnt moderate the comments posted.

    when i started this discussion i was not clear where it would take me. and now after engaging in it, it appears that the homosexuality issue is merely the tip of the ice berg.

    the iceberg being about fully embracing the new covenant.

    that like romans 10 and 11, even though it has existed for 2000 years,it did little to quell 2000 years of believer's antisemitism.

    even though paul says in the new covenant we are not under the law and are to be led by and serve of the spirit. it has done little to mitigate 1700 years of believers persecuting and division of each other over their differing interpretations of the law for the sake of remaining under it.

  • Mon Feb 23, 2009 10:08 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 2

    Am I reading this right that even feet is fed up with marg/mickey's comments?

  • Mon Feb 23, 2009 9:52 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    "What I do understand is that you are obsessed with homosexuality to exclusion of more important things. Your rant makes little sense, is not based on anything Biblical and really accomplishes nothing. "

    Then you've missed my post:

    Rom 1:26 Because of this did God give them up to dishonourable affections, for even their females did change the natural use into that against nature;
    Rom 1:27 and in like manner also the males having left the natural use of the female, did burn in their longing toward one another; males with males working shame, and the recompense of their error that was fit, in themselves receiving.

    "also the males having left the natural use of the female,"

    "natural" (5446) means "physical"
    "use" (5540) means "employment i.e. spec sexual intercourse"

    Completely Biblical, under grace not law and these vs stand alone as a Biblical point. The desire and actions of homosexual intimacy are sin.

    Now, the reason we keep discussing it is because there are pro-gay agenda folk who post here who just insist that gay is OK with Jesus and the Bible. As long as they post...we will respond!

    1Pe 3:15-16 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and [be] ready always to [give] an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear: Having a good conscience; that, whereas they speak evil of you, as of evildoers, they may be ashamed that falsely accuse your good conversation in Christ.

  • Mon Feb 23, 2009 9:46 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

    "You've lost the same sex marriage battle and it's time you moved on."

    If that's the case then there's no problem with leaving Prop 8 just the way it is. Please tell the gay community to drop all challenges to Prop 8 because they won already.

    Thanks!

  • Mon Feb 23, 2009 7:35 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 4

    marg

    im sorry but it sounds you are the one doing the ranting? you are the one attempting to control how others live their lives.

    have you ever made a constructive point on the discussion of this subject? if so what is it?

  • Mon Feb 23, 2009 5:12 pm Agree: 4   Disagree: 0

    "you dont understand how their identity and their understanding of god is intertwined with homosexuality being a sin. you dont understand that they represent a large pecentageof believers, who if they were forced to acknowledge that homosexuality was not a sin, would then feel forced to exclaim,.......... "there is no god."

    because........................ that would mean that homosexuality was of christ, in spite of the fact that there was a prohibition in the old covenant against same sex intimacy. the ramifications for those who believe in the inerrancy of scripture would be immense.

    that would mean recognizing that being led by and serving of the spirit is a higher callling to christ than following the law, because the first is living a life of conviction of ones heart, rather than by outward actions."

    What I do understand is that you are obsessed with homosexuality to exclusion of more important things. Your rant makes little sense, is not based on anything Biblical and really accomplishes nothing. You cannot control others by ranting, you cannot control others by whining and, more importantly, it really isn't YOUR place to control how others chose to live their lives. It would seem this is your only form of entertainment based on the enormous number of posts you have on every homosexuality related board I've looked at. While it's not my place to tell you what to do with your time, you do look a bit foolish here.

  • Mon Feb 23, 2009 3:57 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

    Marg420


    After a hiatus of a month or so, I see it's still the same sad group whining about same sex marriage. The interesting think is I never see these names on ANY other subject, except something do do with same sex marriage or homosexuals. You are aware there are much bigger issues in the world today other then gay people??? Ever think of doing something about issues you can really affect? You've lost the same sex marriage battle and it's time you moved on.




    you dont understand how their identity and their understanding of god is intertwined with homosexuality being a sin. you dont understand that they represent a large pecentageof believers, who if they were forced to acknowledge that homosexuality was not a sin, would then feel forced to exclaim,.......... "there is no god."

    because........................ that would mean that homosexuality was of christ, in spite of the fact that there was a prohibition in the old covenant against same sex intimacy. the ramifications for those who believe in the inerrancy of scripture would be immense.

    that would mean recognizing that being led by and serving of the spirit is a higher callling to christ than following the law, because the first is living a life of conviction of ones heart, rather than by outward actions.

    23"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cummin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former. 24You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel.

    25"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence. 26Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean.


    CONTINUED

  • Mon Feb 23, 2009 3:56 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

    CONTINUED


    it would mean embracing living under grace, and to stop living under the law, and to attempting to put others under it as well.

    no longer living under the law, meaning living under regulations(human interpretations) that emphasize cleaning the outside of the cup

    rather than obsessing about the outward appearances of sexual intimacy between same sexes, the interest would be in the hearts of the participants. there would be an equal appreciation for sexual intimacy for both orientations( frequency and satisfaction of sexual intimacy in heterosexual marriages being indicative of a healthy marriage could then be equally applied to both)

    but since the outside the cup( same sex intimacy) in their minds dirties the cup, they ascribe all kinds of characteriations to the hearts of the participants.(sons of satan, deceived minds,believers attempting to corrupt other believers etc)

    consider: .............. to acknowledge that homosexuality is not a sin is major step and means christendom taking their one foot out of that which because it is "called old", and" will soon become obsolete and pass away". and putting it in the that which is called new, so that both feet are firmly planted in the the new covenant..

    this is yet to happen.

    no..........for a large part of christendum today...................homosexuality means. lives............ corrupted with sin regardless of hearts and circumstances................corrupted with.a sin that nullifies the faith of the believer..

    it is no wonder that the church rather than leading the fight for equal rights for homosexuals is instead its greatest obstacle.

  • Mon Feb 23, 2009 2:38 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

    marg, speaking of the pot calling the kettle black, how are m&m doing, I noticed a lot of thumbs down appearing lately with no posts following so I sort of suspected the m&m gang was in the house!

  • Mon Feb 23, 2009 1:52 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 1

    After a hiatus of a month or so, I see it's still the same sad group whining about same sex marriage. The interesting think is I never see these names on ANY other subject, except something do do with same sex marriage or homosexuals. You are aware there are much bigger issues in the world today other then gay people??? Ever think of doing something about issues you can really affect? You've lost the same sex marriage battle and it's time you moved on.

  • Mon Feb 23, 2009 12:30 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    " (although that takes it out of historical context) "

    Just because it was going on at the time does not mean Paul was addressing a specific historical context. Paul was very good about putting things in historical context when he was applying things that way. He did not do so in this text.

  • Mon Feb 23, 2009 12:28 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    "such as being in a committed relationship"

    So, you guys have no physical relationship?

    Rom 1:26 Because of this did God give them up to dishonourable affections,

    The greek word translated "affections" is 3806 pathos which literally translates "concupiscence" which means a desire for sexual intimacy.

    Are you saying you have no desire to be sexually intimate with your partner? The cause is the desire to besexually intimate. The effect is homosexual sex.

    The scripture still applies and stands alone. Homosexual sex (and the desire for homosexual sexual intimacy) is ALWAYS sin.

  • Mon Feb 23, 2009 12:17 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Just FYI, same sex attraction or opposite sex attraction is refering to a desire for sexual intimacy. If there is no sexual attraction...that's called friendship.

  • Mon Feb 23, 2009 11:11 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

    DP, there you go again saying something is clear when it is not. What is described in Romans is an act, not a sexual orientation or a state of being, such as being in a committed relationship. If you want to condemn the act, fine (although that takes it out of historical context) but you cannot say it clearly condemns homosexuality.

  • Mon Feb 23, 2009 10:35 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

    "who recognized that homosexuals relationships are as life giving as heterosexual relationships"


    Mat 7:13 "Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.

    Life is only found in death.

    Luk 9:24 "For whoever wishes to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake, he is the one who will save it.

    Die to self and live for Christ. His approval is the only one that matters. His word is His approval. His word gives his approval and disapproval. His word in Romans 1:26-27 clearly gives His disapproval of ANY homosexual sex under ANY condition.

    Mat 24:24 "For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect.

    False prophets tell you what you want to hear instead of what God says. An example would be a false prophet would say that Romans 1:26-27 doesn't actually mean that ANY homosexual sex for ANY reason is sin.

  • Mon Feb 23, 2009 10:24 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    ""If you CONSIDER ME A BELIEVER in the Lord," she said, "come and stay at my house." And she persuaded us.

    what do you suppose was the scriptural evidence here? "


    Act 16:14-15 A woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple fabrics, a worshiper of God, was listening; and the Lord opened her heart to respond to the things spoken by Paul. And when she and her household had been baptized, she urged us, saying, "If you have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come into my house and stay." And she prevailed upon us.

    And the answer is... "the Lord opened her heart to respond to the things spoken by Paul" Paul penned Romans 1:26-27. You are not open to what was "spoken of" by Paul in Romans 1:26-27. Therefore, Lydia does not apply to homosexuality arguement except to condemn it.

    It seems the more scripture you bring the more it condemns you.

  • Mon Feb 23, 2009 10:02 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 2

    "It is indeed disturbing to receive words from homosexuals who preach to us about the love of Jesus. "

    That's just it. They are NOT speaking of the love of Jesus. Their "Jesus" is codependent excusing any sin instead of confronting it. They make "Jesus" in their own image and then call it love.

    Part of the anti-social diagnosis attached to the gay community is a problem with authority. They have a great problem with the authority of Scripture and argue against what it clearly says. This leads to a disfunctional view of Jesus and what love is just like any other codependent situation involving drugs or alchohol. The symptoms are consistant.

  • Mon Feb 23, 2009 8:53 am Agree: 2   Disagree: 1

    13On the Sabbath we went outside the city gate to the river, where we expected to find a place of prayer. We sat down and began to speak to the women who had gathered there. 14One of those listening was a woman named Lydia, a dealer in purple cloth from the city of Thyatira, who was a worshiper of God. The Lord opened her heart to respond to Paul's message. 15When she and the members of her household were baptized, she invited us to her home. "If you CONSIDER ME A BELIEVER in the Lord," she said, "come and stay at my house." And she persuaded us.

    what do you suppose was the scriptural evidence here?

  • Mon Feb 23, 2009 8:24 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 2

    salt, a study came out recently it may have been Barna, but I can't say for certain and it said that about 46% of church members have not had a genuine conversion experience and if you take it a step further there is no doubt some of them are filling roles of leadership in their churches. My take is that too many people who profess to be saved bought into cheap grace salvation and this is the result, a lack of burden for the lost and buying into false teachings such as God being okay with people violating His original and only design for marriage and sexual intimacy and a number of other problems in our churches today.

  • Mon Feb 23, 2009 12:36 am Agree: 2   Disagree: 1

    It is the world and not the Christian community trying to legalize homosexuality. It is the world that is telling the Church it's not sin. It is the world that embraces homosexuality. You are conformed to this world. Your mind has not been renewed.

    those that speaking out for homosexuals are their friends , relatives, neighbors, students, fellow believers, patients, fellow soldiers, coworkers. all are people who have felowshipped, co-mingled, grew up with, raised, lived with, were taught by, were patients of........ in other words had life giving relationships with. who recognized that homosexuals relationships are as life giving as heterosexual relationships.

  • Sun Feb 22, 2009 8:56 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 2

    "Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world"

    It is the world and not the Christian community trying to legalize homosexuality. It is the world that is telling the Church it's not sin. It is the world that embraces homosexuality. You are conformed to this world. Your mind has not been renewed.

    Your own proof convicts you.

  • Sun Feb 22, 2009 7:32 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 1

    reedit

    to say that anyone's interpretation of the written code becomes an unchallengeable standard, comes against:

    Romans 12:2
    Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God's will is, his good, pleasing and perfect will.

    1 Thessalonians 5:21
    Test everything. Hold on to the good.

  • Sun Feb 22, 2009 7:20 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 1

    that is why I can see that not only is homosexuality is a sin


    you and others of the same understanding have seen nothing. not one of you has any witness of the spirit that is in any of the lives and marriages of any homosexual believers.

    you have seen nothing beyond your own belief.

  • Sun Feb 22, 2009 7:03 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

    You have been given scripture as plain as the nose on your face FEET,

    you have given me the words of scripture and your interpretation of them.

    i dont reject the scripture, all scripture is god breathed, just the way you attempt to apply them.

  • Sun Feb 22, 2009 6:48 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

    to say that anyone's interpretation of the written code becomes an unchallengeable standard, comes against:

    Romans 12:2
    Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God's will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.


    1 Thessalonians 5:21
    Test everything. Hold on to the good.

  • Sun Feb 22, 2009 6:33 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    It stands alone. It is a point in it's own context. Homosexual sex is sin under any circumstance for any reason.

    to say that this is a law. means that we are under it and are to therefore to be led by it.

    the essence is that it is a regulation. it is a rule without condition of love, devotion, affirmation.

    there is no scripture that supports this. instead there is scripture that speaks directly against this understanding.

  • Sun Feb 22, 2009 4:13 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

    feet, to be under the law means to be under the penalty of the law which true believers are no longer subject to, but to not be under the law does not give us permission to willfully disobey God's commands.

  • Sun Feb 22, 2009 4:01 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    just like anyone can believe they are under the law, in spite of the words of romans 6 and galatians 5

  • Sun Feb 22, 2009 3:58 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    everyone is entitled to believe what ever they chose without recrimination.

    but it is another thing to say that that belief is supported by the words of scripture.

  • Sun Feb 22, 2009 10:42 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 2

    "I guess a record turnout of registered voters are unqualified to decide or to govern themselves. "

    I'm glad to see you agree that Prop 8 should stand.

  • Sun Feb 22, 2009 10:41 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 2

    "test = an examination ,experiment, or trial as to prove the value or ascertain the nature of something. "

    A test without a standard to measure it by is no test at all. If you test the value of the dollar against itself you only prove that a dollar is a dollar.

    The Bible is my standard. I don't fudge the standard. I either stand or fall based on the standard. (I've done my share of both.) Romans 1:26-27 is one of the standards. It stands alone. It is a point in it's own context. Homosexual sex is sin under any circumstance for any reason.

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