Updated 11:59 pm.EST, Fri November 20, 2009

Church|Thu, Feb. 19 2009 08:23 AM EST

Man Commits Suicide in Televangelist's Cathedral

By Associated Press Writer|Gillian Flaccus

GARDEN GROVE, Calif. โ€“ A man shot and killed himself in front of a cross inside televangelist Robert H. Schuller's Crystal Cathedral on Wednesday as a nearby volunteer told a group of visitors about the church's suicide-prevention program, police and church officials said.

  • Crystal Cathedral
    (Photo: AP Images / Mark Avery)
    The body of an apparent suicide victim is loaded into a coroner's van at televangelist Robert H. Schuller's Crystal Cathedral in Garden Grove, Calif., Wednesday, Feb. 18, 2009.
  • Crystal Cathedral
    (Photo: AP Images / Mark Avery)
    A coroner's van drives away from televangelist Robert H. Schuller's Crystal Cathedral with the body of an apparent suicide in Garden Grove, Calif., Wednesday, Feb. 18, 2009. A church spokesman said a man shot and killed himself before a cross in the cathedral.
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The man handed a note and his driver's license to two ushers, walked to the cross and then shot himself in the head as he appeared to be praying, Senior Pastor Juan Carlos Ortiz said.

The Orange County coroner's office identified the man as Steve Smick, 48. Church spokesman Mike Nason said there was no record of Smick at the cathedral.

Betty Spicer, a volunteer usher at the famous sanctuary, said she greeted Smick when he entered. She said he handed her a folded note with two cards inside as the man told her: "You may want this."

Spicer said he then walked to the foot of the cross. She and Yvette Manson, another volunteer, said they thought Smick was praying when they heard a pop.

The man used a semiautomatic handgun, said police Lt. Dennis Ellsworth.

A tourist, one in a group of several visitors from Canada, told Manson the man had shot himself.

"I didn't realize it. I thought he was praying," Spicer said.

Manson said she "had just finished telling them about our intervention hotline that we have โ€” suicide prevention on the fifth floor โ€” and all of a sudden I heard this pop, a loud pop, it almost sounded like a firecracker," she said.

Spicer said one of Smick's cards was a driver's license, and that the note mentioned a pickup truck in the parking lot.

Cathedral spokesman John Charles said none of the tourists was injured.

The glass-walled, 10,000-member megachurch in Orange County is home to the "Hour of Power" broadcast, an evangelism staple aired internationally for more than three decades. Thousands visit the cathedral to see where the broadcast is filmed before a live congregation.

After the shooting, police could be seen through the cathedral's glass doors investigating the scene and taking photographs before the body was removed. They also searched his pickup truck, Ellsworth said.

There have been two other shootings at the church in recent years.

In December 2004, Crystal Cathedral Orchestra conductor Johnnie Carl, 57, killed himself at the complex after a standoff that began when he opened fire in offices before a Christmas pageant. He had been hospitalized for severe depression.

Also that year, a man was wounded by a plainclothes police officer in the cathedral parking lot. Authorities said the man was meeting his mother, but the officer didn't know they were related and intervened in what he thought was an argument.

Associated Press writer Amy Taxin in Tustin contributed to this report.

Copyright 2008 Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed.
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  • Thu May 21, 2009 7:55 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    What about the small plane that crashed in Colorado, the man (notorius abortion owner of abortuaries in California) lost 5 grandchildren, two sons, his wife, ... and it crashed right next to a Catholic prolife cemetery where they bury the abortion babies and pray for them there. But back to the owner; I understand he is grieving pretty badly, so we should all pray for him now. God Bless.

  • Thu May 21, 2009 7:51 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    This has nothing to do with guns> You can cut one's wrists, take an overdose of medicine, drown in one's bathtub; maybe we should ban medicine, ban water, razor blades, maybe even train tracks...?

  • Thu May 21, 2009 7:49 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    "Question: If one were to accept religion to be part of government, which religion, which denomination? Should it be Catholic, Protestant, Mormon. What set of beliefs should become the law of the land?"

    Too easy. The Universal (Catholic) Church of Jesus Christ, only Church that is in accord with the Nicene Creed: One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic.

  • Wed Feb 25, 2009 4:55 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    mike22685, so you were stating two thoughts in the same post, my bad I thought it was all one thought and now it does make sense although I disagree somewhat about the NRA take, thanks for the clarification.

  • Wed Feb 25, 2009 4:29 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Believer, I think you misunderstood my response to DP. DP asked how he got the weapon, and I took that as how did someone who was suicidal get hold of a weapon. I was telling about my best friend's father to illustrate that he may have owned a weapon prior to getting to the point of being suicidal. My friend's father always had a gun for "protection" and it was unfortunate that the gun was the tool he used to kill himself. I think if someone was suicidal they will find ways to kill themselves, gun or not. Let me know if that makes more sense.

  • Wed Feb 25, 2009 2:42 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    mike22685, plus I agree with DP the issue was not sin being spoke to or access to a gun, the issue was either he was not brought into a caring community of believers or he chose not to be a part of a caring community of believers.

  • Wed Feb 25, 2009 2:37 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    mike22685, please read what you said, "he owned a gun prior to his depression", how would stiffer gun laws have prevented that? Would the questionnaire say, if you think you will suffer from depression in the future please check this block? Plus, aren't you the one who said if someone is going to commit suicide they'll find a way to do it, so would it have been better if he jumped off a bridge?

  • Wed Feb 25, 2009 12:55 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    DP, my best friend's father shot himself in their house. He had a wife, 2 children, and his mother and law all living with him. He owned a gun prior to his depression. Unfortunately, members of the NRA think its logical that everyone should be allowed to have a handgun at home, without regard to mental stability or reason for possession (this man never hunted a day in his life. I think the concept of guns for protection is nuts!)

  • Wed Feb 25, 2009 12:47 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    "this person who committed suicide was 'asking for a fish & he was given a snake.'"

    "The man handed a note and his driver's license to two ushers, walked to the cross and then shot himself in the head as he appeared to be praying, Senior Pastor Juan Carlos Ortiz said."

    The man didn't ask for anything. Since he had his note already written it is logical to conclude that he had already made his plans and wasn't looking for any answers from anyone.

    Sick people do sick things. We had a fellow out here that lost his wife and 2 children a few weeks ago and in a moment of grief killed himself. It isn't the Churches responsibility play 20 questions with everyone who walks into a church.

    The problem I have is he had a weapon. Exactly how did he get it? Did he have depression? Shouldn't the people around him have been involved? The problem I have is we are such an independent society who thinks we don't have the right to be close enough to care.

  • mike »
    Wed Feb 25, 2009 12:29 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    christianity SHOULD show compassion & not put more weight on peoples shoulders by judging suffering people because of sin.

  • mike »
    Wed Feb 25, 2009 11:39 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    this person who committed suicide was 'asking for a fish & he was given a snake.' probabaly he was asking about issues in life, answers to his problems, but the church said 'because of SIN or that is not biblical!' when people have problems or issues, they do not need another 'weight on their shoulders' from the church like 'that is a sin or that is not biblical.' church should help not to add more problems that might lead to suicide.

  • Wed Feb 25, 2009 11:18 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    "big reason why the US constitution was drafted to keep religion out of government. "

    Wrong. The only way to keep religion out of government would be to have people elected who have no religion. As long as a person has religious beliefs and is elected then religion will be in government. Anything else would be interfering with the "free exercise there of" on the part of the individual. If the elected person is representing a group who hold to certain religious beliefs as their source of morals and values then to not represent their interests would be taxation without representation (as they would be represented in name only).

    The Constitution was written to protect our freedom from being run by a State Church such as the Church of England "influenced" the English government. You did what they said or you got kicked out.

    Our government cannot say "the Baptist church is the church of our country". However, each American (elected or not) has the right and responsibility to vote their conscience.

    Your position would be the same as what they had in England where a person dare not vote their conscience.

  • Tue Feb 24, 2009 9:11 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Tue Feb 24, 2009 7:07 pm

  • Tue Feb 24, 2009 8:54 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Prophet,

    <<Did you even read my post? I didn't think so. >>

    which one are you referring to?

  • Tue Feb 24, 2009 8:52 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Prophet,

    No matter what you want, the vast majority of Americans are not interested in a significant presence of religion in government, just as the founding fathers envisioned.

  • Tue Feb 24, 2009 8:42 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Prophet, I read your post, and Johnzon has a very good point. You said: That means that the government cannot prohibit the free excercise of religion. And the government can't tell a person what religion to practice, but it doesn't say that the government can't practice a religion.

    John asked what religion it would practice, and its very clear that Christianity has multiple religions under its roof. You claim that the government all practicing one religion doesn't impede on me. Actually it does. If the entire government decided to become evangelical, I wouldn't have a single right to marry, adopt children, or be protected if someone attacks me because I am gay. That most certainly would affect me.

  • Tue Feb 24, 2009 8:20 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    " If one were to accept religion to be part of government, which religion, which denomination?"

    Did you even read my post? I didn't think so.

  • Tue Feb 24, 2009 8:19 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    "Thomas Jefferson himself, when he made reference to the separation of church, stated explicitly that religion was to be separate from government."

    So what? Just because he believed that doesn't make it constitutional.

  • Tue Feb 24, 2009 8:11 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Prophet,


    I have no way of knowing whether there is a creator, maybe, maybe not. I just dont have the data to say either way, but I would not consider myself an atheist. The writers of Islam, Christianity, Judaism, Mormonism, etc. were all likely products of mans imagination.

  • Tue Feb 24, 2009 8:06 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Prophet,

    <<Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion>>

    Thomas Jefferson himself, when he made reference to the separation of church, stated explicitly that religion was to be separate from government.

    Question: If one were to accept religion to be part of government, which religion, which denomination? Should it be Catholic, Protestant, Mormon. What set of beliefs should become the law of the land? Should we have religious wars to sort it out just as they did in Europe. The one thing that came out of those wars is the crafters of the US constitution knew reliigon should not be part of government.

  • Tue Feb 24, 2009 7:07 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Actually, Johnzon, the Constitution was drafted to keep government out of religion.

    The First Amendment states "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof..."

    That means that the government cannot prohibit the free excercise of religion. And the government can't tell a person what religion to practice, but it doesn't say that the government can't practice a religion. If the Senate wants to pray to God, please tell me how that imposes a religion upon you. If the government wants to have "In God We Trust" on their money, please tell me how that forces you to believe in a particular god. If a court has the Ten Commandments on their building, show me how that coerces anyone into being a Christian.
    It comes down to this...all these things do not, in any way, make the practicing of Christianity a law. It does show that our government professes a belief in God, but does not at all force that belief on anyone. And those who say otherwise, know in the depths of their heart that there is a God, and they don't want to acknowledge it. So, the only thing they can do is try and silence those people who would remind them of that fact.

  • Tue Feb 24, 2009 6:59 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Johnzon,

    What are you? You're not a Christian. A muslim maybe? LDS? Branch Davidian?

  • Tue Feb 24, 2009 6:07 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Daniel Paul

    <<The frightening thing about you is that anyone who claims the name of Christ and disagrees with you is a religious zealot.>>

    No, we are entitled to our beliefs and faith, the problem I have is when zealots dictate to others that the zealot beliefs, faiths, religious interpretaions are the only correct ones, everyone else is wrong. The only "truth" is that of the zealot, thats the problem I have. There was a time when Christian zealots were responsible for religious wars in Europe, big reason why the US constitution was drafted to keep religion out of government.

  • Tue Feb 24, 2009 5:58 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Prophet

    FYI, I'm not an atheist.

  • Tue Feb 24, 2009 5:56 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Prophet

    <<Science still hasn't explained where the universe came from.>>

    Please tell me what your religion has brought to the table towards the understanding of science?

    There are many things that science has yet to understand, that does not mean science will never know.
    In the last few centuries science has advanced humans knowledge of the world and the universe around us. Religion has brought essentially nothing to advance human knowledge and understanding. The very same debates theologians have today are not all that much different then they were 1000 years ago, just the name change. During the 16C Martin Luther spoke of "end-times very near", today Pat Robertson and other religious wackos arguing the same nonsense. So Proph, your knowledge of science as far as I can tell is about zero, so stick to your Bible for your "knowledge". So sit back and relax and watch as science continues to move forward as your religion is stuck in the mud.

  • Tue Feb 24, 2009 4:22 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    johnzon

    Religious zealots and Jim Jones....
    I would put you in the same catagory as Stalin, Hitler, and the many other atheists who have killed over 150 million people in the name of atheism in the past 100 years. Now THAT'S a zealot.

  • Tue Feb 24, 2009 2:46 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    "The frightening thing about religious zealots"

    The frightening thing about you is that anyone who claims the name of Christ and disagrees with you is a religious zealot. Well guess what....

    Rev 3:19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

    THANKS!!!

  • Tue Feb 24, 2009 2:01 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Everyone? Or just those that are?

  • Tue Feb 24, 2009 1:33 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    While I understand everyone has certain catchphrases, I don't understand why you insist on calling everyone carnally minded and saying that others know nothing of the Bible.

  • Tue Feb 24, 2009 1:10 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    The spiritual things are foreign to carnal people. It is foolishness to them. They think they are wise in their own wisdom, but it is foolishness before God. They scoff at what they can't understand.
    johnzon, since you know nothing about the Bible, please keep your arguments to the secular.
    Science still hasn't explained where the universe came from. "The 'Big Bang' theory" is what is usualy retorted. What was all this matter before it became our universe? "It was a big mass just floating in space". And where did that matter come from? "Another dimension" some would say. And where did that matter come from?


    And then there is silence....

  • Tue Feb 24, 2009 10:15 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Prophet,

    <<But I disagree with praying for mercy for his soul. It's a little too late for >>

    So what if you disagree, you post this stuff as if you have data to back up your nonsensical claims.

    <<The destination of suicide victims is conjecture>>

    All your claims are conjecture based on your faith, religion, opinion- ALL conjecture, no proof, no data, no evidence.


    The frightening thing about religious zealots is they are so convinced they are correct, they fail to recognize the lunacy of their beliefs. Jim Jones comes to mind.

  • Mon Feb 23, 2009 10:17 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Mike,
    I understand. I, too, pray that I'm wrong in this. The destination of suicide victims is conjecture, and it opens up a pandora's box of "what if's".
    But I disagree with praying for mercy for his soul. It's a little too late for that. It is appointed unto man once to die, then the judgement.

  • Mon Feb 23, 2009 9:09 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Prophet, I disagree. Suicide is not always well thought out, and even in the case of this man, anyone who would kill themselves while people looked on is not in their right mind. That's why I pray for God's mercy on his soul, because I truly pity anyone who thinks life is really that bad. God is kind and merciful, and I don't think it is for us to decide how God thinks when it comes to an issue as complex as suicide.

  • Mon Feb 23, 2009 8:26 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    prophet, if one believes one can lose their salvation you're 100% correct, if one does not believe a person can lose their salvation than your 100% wrong! But that also depends on how one believes a person can lose their salvation and the mental state of the person who commits suicide.

  • Mon Feb 23, 2009 7:19 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    We all have sins that we have forgotten to ask for forgiveness for. I always ask God that if there is any sin that I have committed that I forgot about, or didn't realize, that God would forgive me. Most of the time, if I know that I sin, I ask for forgiveness immediately. But the point is, those who commit suicide is a premeditated sin. It's not like a sin where you may have slipped up and made a mistake. Suuicide is a well thought out sin. And once it's done, there is no chance for forgiveness.

  • Mon Feb 23, 2009 5:53 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    prophet, if death was instantaneous then no, but if it was not then that person could have possibly asked God for forgiveness. But are you saying if a person dies with any unconfessed sin on their heart they will not be saved?

  • Mon Feb 23, 2009 5:31 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Can a premeditated sin to which there is no forgiveness asked be forgiven?

  • Mon Feb 23, 2009 5:21 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    mike22685, I should say also that I don't believe suicide is an unpardonable sin.

  • Mon Feb 23, 2009 5:20 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    mike22685, no, I don't since there is absolutely no biblical support for it, but you being a catholic probably do which would have compelled you to pray the prayer you did, but at the same time the catholic church teaches that suicide is a mortal sin which would send a person straight to hell since needless to say he did not have time to go to confession.

  • Mon Feb 23, 2009 5:06 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    Looks like Christian Post is another so called Christian group who will allow all kinds of ungodly talk to come in but when someone speaks truth they erase their post. Typical.

  • Mon Feb 23, 2009 4:34 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Believer, do you believe in purgatory?

  • Mon Feb 23, 2009 12:22 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    mike22685, saw's point is, if the man is already dead it is too late to pray for him since he's either home with the Lord or eternally separated from God. The better option would be to pray for his family and friends who have been devastated by his death and the circumstances of his death. But at the same time being a former catholic I understand why you would feel led to pray for his soul.

  • Mon Feb 23, 2009 11:03 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Its praying for God's mercy on his soul. I believe that God is kind and merciful and knows that this man's soul must have been tortured to get to this point. I don't think there are many people, if any, that you could say are in their "right mind" when they choose to kill themselves, and I pray that God understands that and forgives someone who was so lost that they didn't reach out for help.

  • Mon Feb 23, 2009 9:38 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    OK Mike - question - what will your "Prayer" for this man's soul do for this man's soul? I mean what are you praying for? How can that "prayer" change anything about this man's soul? Come on How?

  • Sun Feb 22, 2009 10:42 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    gav, you're very welcome and I just lifted you and your church up in prayer right now, but you're so right we're experiencing some tough times in our nation and we in the Christian community are not immune to them, but we do have a God who is still in control and cares for His children, let's pray believers will continue to trust Him even in these difficult times and will reach out to unsaved people who are going through these same hurts and struggle.

  • Sun Feb 22, 2009 9:54 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    believer.....thank you so much for the invaluable information. Some fathers in my church have lost their jobs recently and their families are facing real hardship. In the past year, 3 sole bread winners died prematurely. Even though there has never been any suicide cases in my church, I feel that the worsening financial situation of some families may be a catalyst for people to do desperate things.

    I look after the youth fellowship group [60 members this year]in my church and even though there has never been any suicide cases, I am very keenly aware of the fact that youths are particularly at risk. I agree with you that I need to do a lot of praying. Please pray with me. Thank you again.

  • Sun Feb 22, 2009 8:17 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    cont., pervasive sadness/increase in smoking and/or substance use or abuse/little solid verbal communication with parents/family disruptions such as divorce/talk of getting even with others such as parents/history of maltreatment as a child/a sudden lifting of sadness, depression, or withdrawal(which may indicate the decision to commit suicide has been made)/for males under 16, the loss of a father or close male figure through death or divorce and for females, extreme difficulty with their mothers, especially in the presence of an inadequate father figure. But one of the best pieces of advice I can give you is that if you suspect someone is thinking of suicide point blank ask them, it is a myth that asking that question will cause a person to commit suicide, in fact just the opposite is true because it gives them a chance to talk about why they are thinking about doing it in the first place and you can get them the help they need to prevent them from doing it. Plus, I don't know where you are spiritually but I would certainly encourage you to do a whole lot of praying as you're dealing with this person.

  • Sun Feb 22, 2009 8:08 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    gav, there are some signs that you can watch for that may indicate someone is possibly thinking of suicide: recent lossof or rejection by a loved one/loss of a pet/ previous suicide attempts/history of self-destructive behavior/purchase of pills, weapons, ropes/talking or writing about the desire to end one's life/discussion of legal matters such as disposal of personal property/giving away of prized possessions with comments that they won't need them any longer/clear lessening of a fear of death/recent sense of failure/abrupt cutting off of friendships/tendency to be more morose, isolated and/or irritable than usual/violent or abusive behavior/returning borrowed items/change in eating and/or sleeping habits/declining performance at school or work/loss of energy and unusual fatigue/

  • Sun Feb 22, 2009 7:23 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Thanks Gavulav, I won't :)

  • Sun Feb 22, 2009 7:07 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Thanks Mike..... I guess you're right, if someone really wants to take their own life, they'll find a way, no matter what. We do what we can with those close to us, pray for them, love them and keep them focussed on Jesus. And Mike...don't let anyone discourage you from advocating prayer as the Christian's way of dealing with loss and tradegy.

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