Saturday, November 07, 2009 Last Update:12:05 pm ET

Church|Fri, Feb. 27 2009 03:55 PM EST

Presbyterian Pastor Fears Denomination is Compromising Witness

By Lillian Kwon|Christian Post Reporter

As Presbyterians in Charlotte approved an amendment that would open the way for the ordination of non-celibate homosexuals, one pastor is speaking out, concerned that the Church is compromising its witness in morally ambiguous times.

"The approved amendment, in violating the teachings of Scripture and our confessional history, puts the church in the position of accommodating itself to a culture that is demanding permission for behaviors and patterns of life that, while self-gratifying, are not biblically permissible," states Jim Szeyller, pastor of Carmel Presbyterian Church in Charlotte, N.C., in a commentary published Thursday in The Charlotte Observer.

Last week, the Presbytery of Charlotte – a regional body of the Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) – voted 177-139 to support a constitutional amendment that would delete language requiring clergy "to lead a life in obedience to Scripture" and to live in "fidelity within the covenant of marriage between and a man and a woman, or chastity in singleness."

The proposed substitute language states that clergy must "pledge themselves to live lives obedient to Jesus Christ ... striving to follow where he leads through the witness of the Scriptures, and to understand the Scriptures through the instruction of the Confessions. In so doing, they declare their fidelity to the standards of the Church."

Some believe the new language would not only allow partnered gays and lesbians to be ordained but weaken the denomination's witness to biblical standards.

"The proposed amendment grants freedom from Scripture to do what seems right in our own eyes," Terry Schlossberg of The Presbyterian Coalition stated earlier. The coalition launched a campaign to defeat the amendment which requires a majority approval from the PC(USA)'s 173 presbyteries.

As of Wednesday, 36 presbyteries have approved the amendment and 46 have voted against it, according to The Layman.

Szeyller, saddened by his presbytery's vote on Saturday, asked to have his dissent recorded in the official minutes of the presbytery.

"Our culture is looking for grace-filled, humble clarity," he states in his commentary. "We live in turbulent and morally ambiguous times. The Presbytery of Charlotte has lost an opportunity to be clear and relevant. The approved amendment only exacerbates the moral ambiguity of our culture."

The Charlotte pastor, who is also serving as chair of the Special Committee to Study Issues of Civil Union and Christian Marriage in the PC(USA), clarifies that the issue wracking the denomination is not about justice, the inclusion of homosexuals or just about homosexuality.

Instead, "the issue is about our individual, church and denominational witness that is finding itself weakened and compromised by an on-going strident and sometimes hurtful debate that threatens to divide our denomination. We do not present ourselves well to a world that is looking for a gracious and kind alternative to the nasty dialogue that passes for much of our civil debate," Szeyller says.

Also, "the issue is about the authority of Scripture. As Christians, we proclaim that the Bible is the unique and authoritative Word of God. We declare that our creeds and confessions are reliable expositions of Scripture. We promise to be guided by those confessions." Continue >>

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  • Fri Mar 06, 2009 8:10 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    Jeh,

    ------------------------------------------------

    James 2:10

    For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

    if we're going to keep old testament laws, we better keep all of them. Which of course is impossible, except in Christ!
    -----------------------------------------------

    No one keeps the law completely except Christ, we cannot do so even with Christ. That is why Paul wrote about the Teaching being good and that it's purpose was to point out our inability to be holy as He is holy. It was to point out our incorrigibility and our need for a savior. True we are not to be lawless but at the same time, Christ + Law equals negating Christ.

    Grace and Peace,

    Jim

  • Thu Mar 05, 2009 6:58 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    TO ALL

    "1Cr 10:13 No temptation has overtaken you but such as is common to man; and God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will provide the way of escape also, so that you will be able to endure it."






    temptation means being tempted to do something that is against the fruit of the spirit. what has that to with homosexuality?

  • Thu Mar 05, 2009 6:47 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    to all


    This is self-centered religious babble and not God-centered relationship;

    #1) True Christians Do Not act for the "inclination of SELF" but to give Glory to God through the NATURE which honors God's design, as seen in creation.
    Giving God the Glory and NOT SELF.

    #2) Elicits "SELF AFFIRMATION"...SELF again! There is no biblical ground to say we must affirm OURSELVES but to affirm GOD!


    DOES THAT MEAN YOU HAVE A PROBLEM WITH THE 2ND COMMANDMENT?

  • Thu Mar 05, 2009 6:41 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    to all


    "The natural that Romans is referring to is not that of human/worldly thinking or influences, but that of which God has made (our physical natural design, male or female). "

    matt5: 17"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

    but instead you attempt to add more than a letter, but instead an entire word to justify your understanding about sin.

    because there is no "only" in genesis, there is no "only" in matthew.


    for you to do such a thing for the sake of your theology comes against what christ"s fulfilling the law, and against your own understanding about the inerrancy of scripture.

    are you attempting to say all scripture is "only" "god breathed" when i add my own words to make its meaning support my own understanding?

  • Thu Mar 05, 2009 5:15 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    "one acting in the inclination of the nature of himself, that elicits self affirmation"

    ????????????????????????????????????????????????

    This is self-centered religious babble and not God-centered relationship;

    #1) True Christians Do Not act for the "inclination of SELF" but to give Glory to God through the NATURE which honors God's design, as seen in creation.
    Giving God the Glory and NOT SELF.

    #2) Elicits "SELF AFFIRMATION"...SELF again! There is no biblical ground to say we must affirm OURSELVES but to affirm GOD!

    No wonder Romans 1 describes the homosexual as being given over to SELFISH DESIRES because they did not GLORIFY God, they esteemed the inclination of the creature over the Natural Design of the Creator. Therefore God gave them up to shameful passions and a darkened and futile, debased mind....and are without excuse come Judgment Day.

  • Thu Mar 05, 2009 10:28 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    feet, the use of the word natural in many istances that refer to natual and not having Spirit is talking about human/worldly thinking and influences, which is not being led by the Spirit (God's Ways). We are to deny human/ worldly thinking and influences and put our faith in Christ and God that His ways are better and be led by the Spirit when we choose to be indwelt by the Spirit.

    The natural that Romans is referring to is not that of human/worldly thinking or influences, but that of which God has made (our physical natural design, male or female).

    The contrast ~ Natural being led by human/worldly thinking or influences and natural being that which God has made. The two do not have any part of each other ~ anything natural by definition of human/worldly instincts or self-affirmation does not have the Spirit and is not natural (as God declared/designed) by God's definition.

  • Thu Mar 05, 2009 9:32 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    in the term "love" i am referring to the love of the 2nd commandment.

  • Thu Mar 05, 2009 9:29 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Jude 17-19

    17 But, dear friends, remember what the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ foretold. 18 They said to you, "In the last times there will be scoffers who will follow their own ungodly desires." 19 These are the men who divide you, who follow mere NATURAL instincts and do not have the Spirit.

    romans: 26Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged NATURAL relations for unnatural ones. 27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.


    THE CONTRAST BETWEEN THE 2 "NATURALS" IS WHY I HOLD TO MY UNDERSTANDING OF THE USE OF THE WORD IN ROMANS 1.

    that is...one acting in the inclination of the nature of himself, that elicits self affirmation and peace and reenforces love.

  • Wed Mar 04, 2009 9:45 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Christ came to fulfill/satisfy the works of law and to thus establish a new covenant for all those that choose to be His people, which is in the Spirit of the Law. He now writes His Law on minds and hearts (not on stone tablets and by works of the law), but by the gift of the Holy Spirit who is given as a pledge to an inheritance and a helper that illuminates His Law, His Will in the heart and mind of every believer that has been indwelt by the Holy Spirit through baptism.

  • Wed Mar 04, 2009 6:21 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

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  • Wed Mar 04, 2009 1:20 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 2

    ARE YOU? Have you repented of homosexuality?

    what i find intersting is knowing all the aspects of human existance, family, friends, carreer achievements, struggles in faith, persevering in trials, loving thosegod has put in our lives, etc.....................you negate all of this over a single a disagreement about the interpretation of scripture....... and then call it christ.

    surely you arent saying that your interest is in keeping all the law.................something no human has ever done.

    remeber james2......if you keep the whole law and violate it in one point you are guilty of violating the whole thing.

  • Wed Mar 04, 2009 12:59 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    The heart that feels no need to repent is not one that receives the Grace of God unto salvation. Whether election or 'free will', the key to salvation and new life in Christ IS repentance. If you have no need for repentance, you cannot receive the Gospel and you are not called by God.


    "You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe--and tremble!"

    "But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?" James 2:19,20

    "I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners, to repentance." Luk 5:32

    ".... that they should repent, turn to God, and do works befitting repentance. Acts 26:20b

    "For godly sorrow produces repentance leading to salvation..." 2Cr 7:10a

    "Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are MANY who go in by it.

    Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are FEW who find it." Matt 7:13,14.

    Obviously, one needs more than to just say the name of the Lord to be saved. Take a look at the example of the 4 types of soil in the parable of the sower (Mark 4:3) to see that not all seed that is planted takes root. Something MORE is needed. The soil is the condition of man's heart and if we receive WITH REPENTANCE the Gospel then we shall be saved.

    The heart that is not repentant cannot receive the seed of the Gospel, no matter how many times he says the name of Christ. One must study the whole counsel of Scripture, not just a handful of verses to understand that repentance from sin brings new life in Christ.

    To believe a simplistic Gospel message where everyone is saved regardless of repentance is a FALSE Gospel.

  • Wed Mar 04, 2009 10:08 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    believers = elect

    who become believers by romans 10:8But what does it say? "The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,"[d] that is, the word of faith we are proclaiming: 9That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. 11As the Scripture says, "Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame."[e] 12For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile, the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."[f]

  • Tue Mar 03, 2009 10:51 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    TO ALL

    "my position is that we see what is of the spirit thru the spirit thru faith in christ and his grace, because the spirit speaks directly to our souls. if we refuse to receive anything other that comes thru our human understanding we negate faith,and the relationship with the one who lives in us and limit what we are able to receive."

    I looked for this verse in the Bible, but couldn't find it. I think you are making this stuff up as you go.

    Romans 8: 26In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groans that words cannot express. 27And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints in accordance with God's will.



    1 Corinthians 2:9However, as it is written:
    "No eye has seen,
    no ear has heard,
    no mind has conceived
    what God has prepared for those who love him"[a, 10but God has revealed it to us by his Spirit.
    The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. 11For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man's spirit within him? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.

  • Tue Mar 03, 2009 10:50 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    TO ALL

    1Therefore, I urge you, brothers, in view of God's mercy, to offer your bodies as living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to God,this is your spiritual[a] act of worship. 2Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to TEST and approve what God's will is,his good, pleasing and perfect will.

    ABSOLUTELY...................AND OUR TEST AS BELIEVERS IS.............."that which we have heard, which we have looked at, and our eyes have seen and our hands have touched." all the basis of the fellowship of walking in the light.

    without this, there is no truth.


    "GOD who chooses and elects those who will belong to the -invisible church- the spiritual body of CHRIST."

    romans 10: 8But what does it say? "The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,"[d] that is, the word of faith we are proclaiming: 9That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. 11As the Scripture says, "Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame."[e] 12For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile, the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."[f]

    i know of no scripture about god choosing and electing.

  • Tue Mar 03, 2009 8:57 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    TO ALL

    1Therefore, I urge you, brothers, in view of God's mercy, to offer your bodies as living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to Godâ

  • Tue Mar 03, 2009 2:06 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    believer, the pro-slavery Baptists of the South used Scripture to oppose the abolition of slavery, declaring that God's Word was 'clear.' Slavery they said was established by God in creation, found in the the mark of Cain, in the curse of Noah's son, Canaan, endorsed in the Ten Commandments, governed by the Deuteronomic Law (where it says that one can beat their slave with a rod as long as they survive a day or two) (Ex. 21:20) and the Levitical Code (where it says you can pass down your slaves and their children to your own children) (Lev. 25:46), approved of by Jesus, as evidenced in his parables, including that of the Watchful Slave, where one slave beats the others, and Jesus says the master will beat him upon return, without any hint of condemnation (Lk. 12:42-8) and by Paul in Ephesians 6:5 and I Timothy 6.1-3 and in Paul's returning of Philemon to his master. Not a word is found in Scripture opposing the practice. The Biblical case against abolition is far greater than yours against homosexuality!

  • Tue Mar 03, 2009 1:01 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    [my position is that we see what is of the spirit thru the spirit thru faith in christ and his grace, because the spirit speaks directly to our souls. if we refuse to receive anything other that comes thru our human understanding we negate faith,and the relationship with the one who lives in us and limit what we are able to receive.] Feet

    I looked for this verse in the Bible, but couldn't find it. I think you are making this stuff up as you go.

    The Spirit of God, having moved the men who wrote the Scriptures, is not going to turn His back on what He authored 2,000 years ago, and then reveal to you that being gay is fine.
    He does not change His mind.
    Therefore, I can only conclude that you are listening to other spirits without bothering to see if they are evil (1 John 4:1)
    Out of concern for you, I admonish you to turn from sin to God. Repent, forsake sin, live a life worth of the calling by which you were called!

  • Tue Mar 03, 2009 12:40 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Okay Feet;

    Take just the verses I used in my post (Mon Mar 02, 2009 4:10 pm) and apply them to practising "christian" homosexuals SO THAT WE MAY SEE it's 'virtue' in the context of the Scripture by the Witness of the Holy Spirit.

    I've annoted my Scripture verses to make it easier for you; you always ask for that...so I assume you study...Verify your "WITNESS" of the Spirit of Christ within the lifestyles of ALL the "gay" people you know, using the Holy Spirit breathed Word of God.

    Convince us that we as Christians are to place such importance to our sexual inclinations in this world with just these two verses:

    "I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your reasonable service." Rom 12:1

    "And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God." (2)

    **DISCLAIMER*
    I am placing a disclaimer that I will respond to nothing of the same old stuff YOU ALWAYS use to defend 'christian gays' and I hope others on the board will agree not to respond as well.

    I hesitate to even respond to you, Feet, but I'd like to see you REPENT and if you can post back anything resembling a contrite spirit and not advocate for homosexuality; then I will be happy to respond...otherwise your postings are clanging cymbals to all Bible Believing, God honoring Christians on these boards.

    "The LORD is near to those who have a broken heart, And saves such as have a contrite spirit.
    Psa 34:18
    "The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit, A broken and a contrite heart--- These, O God, You will not despise. (Psa 51:17)

  • Tue Mar 03, 2009 10:11 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    sj, Plus, although Paul does not explicitly condemn slavery, all one has to do is read Philemon and one can easily see that Paul is indeed opposed to slavery and specifically with regards to Christians owning slaves.

  • Tue Mar 03, 2009 10:07 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    sj, the issue has never been the right or wrong of slavery, the issue has been did God ordain slavery or not and the answer is a resounding no. No where have I ever said that slavery was a good thing as it is not when it comes to a person being the property of someone else. Nor have I ever used the word "lenient" when it comes to referring to slavery, but once again your and others attempt to equate slavery in the history of our nation to slavery as recorded in the Bible is totally inappropriate. Plus per usual you have cited no passages from the Word of God where God clearly speaks against the examples you cited in the beginning of this discussion, so let me refresh your memory, the abolition of slavery, a woman's right to vote, and inter-racial marriage.

  • Tue Mar 03, 2009 9:56 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    TO ALL

    1 John 2:9-11 (New International Version)

    9Anyone who claims to be in the light but hates his brother is still in the darkness. 10Whoever loves his brother lives in the light, and there is nothing in him[a] to make him stumble. 11But whoever hates his brother is in the darkness and walks around in the darkness; he does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded him.

    YOUR APPROACH IS UNBIBLICAL, IN THAT IT IS THRU THE LAW, SANS THE SPIRIT.

    you say there is sin according to your interpretation of the law. you refuse witness thru the spirit, because you do not trust the leading of the spirit, but only your interpretation of the law. WHERE IS FAITH IN THAT?

    "IF I SEE LOVE IT IS NOT LOVE IF MY INTERPRETATION OF THE WRITTEN WORD SAYS IT IS NOT LOVE. IFI SEE KINDNESS IT IS NOT KINDNESS IF MY INTERPRETATION OF SCRIPTURE SAYS IT IS NOT KINDNESS."

    how is this of christ?

    but you cannot trust what you do not know. your attempt to cover what you do not know or trust is by saying, "MY INTERPRETATION OF THE WRITTEN WORD TESTIFIES WHAT IS OF THE SPIRIT".

    and one can only know the spirit apart from one's human understanding........."because we see only in part thru a reflection darkly."

    is this not the same way we know love. in our minds we say it is this or that is love. but it is only thru living love that we come to an understanding about it that is beyond words.


    my position is that we see what is of the spirit thru the spirit thru faith in christ and his grace, because the spirit speaks directly to our souls. if we refuse to receive anything other that comes thru our human understanding we negate faith,and the relationship with the one who lives in us and limit what we are able to receive.

  • Tue Mar 03, 2009 8:52 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    believer is mistaken about lenient Biblical standards for slavery. Jesus tells the Parable of the Watchful Slave in Luke 12:42-48, where one slave beats the others and where the master, Jesus says, will come home and beat him! Exodus 21:20-21 declares God's 'ordinances' approve of the beating of slaves with a rod as long as they survive a day or two!

  • Mon Mar 02, 2009 8:43 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

    TO ALL

    "The Spirit of Christ is revealed within the Word of God ............................."

    what you are saying is " that my interpretation of the written word reveals what is christ."



    YOUR gospel according to YOUR UNDERSTANDING, and has to come thru YOU

    .
    MINE IS NO ACCORDING TO ME, BUT ACCORDING EACH BELIEVER'S WITNESS OF THE SPIRIT, THRU THE ONE WHO LIVES IN THEM. MY ENTREATY IS ONLY THAT WITNESS IS MADE, BUT I HAVE NO PART OF WHAT IS SEEN.

    your interpretation, which is you, is the center of your gospel. and it ATTEMPTS to put believers under the law, in spite of romans

    romans 10: 4Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.

    where is the spirit of christ thru his commandment of love, that is part of your gospel? where is the fulfillment of the law ...........the 2nd comandment in your gospel

    you fail to understand that the written word came the spirit. it is the spirit that determines what the written word means and says. not the other way around.

    your devotion to your interpretation of scripture does not appear to be thru the spirit because you give no importance to the witness of the spirit.

  • Mon Mar 02, 2009 6:06 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    feet, God allowing and God ordaining are two very distinct issues, plus to equate slavery in Bible days to slavery in our country which was totally based on color is totally inappropriate since slavery was practiced by most if not all nations in Bible days and God gave specific instructions for the humane care of all slaves, Hebrew or foreign. Standards which for the most part were non-existent in our nation prior to the Civil War.

  • Mon Mar 02, 2009 4:10 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    The Holy Spirit is the Author of the Bible:


    "And so we have the prophetic word confirmed, which you do well to heed as a light that shines in a dark place..."

    "knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation,for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit. (2Peter 1:19-21)

    "These things we also speak, not in words which man's wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. (1Cor 2:13)

    The Holy Spirit confirms His Word; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
    The word of God as we have it today is breathed of the Holy Spirit and without error.
    It is not a matter of "Man's own Wisdom", "Man's own Will" nor "Man's own private interpretation".

    The Spirit of Christ is revealed within the Word of God and confirms the inerrancy of Scripture.


    When a person questions and misinterprets Scripture to approve sin, that person has NOT the Spirit of Christ but a worldly, sensual spirit:

    "REMEMBER the WORDS which were spoken before by the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ:
    how they told you that there would be mockers in the last time who would WALK ACCORDING TO THEIR OWN UNGODLY LUSTS. These are SENSUAL persons, who cause divisions, NOT having the Spirit." (Jude 1:17,19)

    But the Holy Spirit calls us to Holy Living: "but as He who called you is HOLY, you ALSO be HOLY in ALL YOUR CONDUCT, because it is written, "Be holy, for I am holy."
    (1Peter 1:15,16)

    "Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and YOU ARE NOT YOUR OWN? " (1Cor 6:19)

    "And those who are Christ's HAVE CRUCIFIED THE FLESH WITH IT'S PASSIONS AND DESIRES."
    "If we live in the Spirit, let us also WALK in the Spirit." (Gal 5:25)

    "For this is the WILL OF GOD, your sanctification: THAT YOU SHOULD ABSTAIN FROM SEXUAL IMMORALITY; that each of you should KNOW HOW TO POSSESS HIS OWN VESSEL IN SACTIFICATION AND HONOR NOT IN PASSION OF LUST, like the Gentiles who do not know God". (1 Thess 4:3-5)

    "For if you live according to the flesh you will die; BUT IF BY THE SPIRIT YOU PUT TO DEATH THE DEEDS OF THE BODY, you will live. For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, THESE are sons of God.(Romans 8:13,14)


    I believe it to be VERY EVIDENT that one who walks in and promotes SINFUL, HOMOSEXUAL behavior cannot then be walking in ANYTHING other than the FLESH.

    To say otherwise is to deny the Holy Spirit, HIS Holy Word, making void the sacrifice Christ Jesus made on the Cross to free you from the BONDAGE OF SIN and BLASPHEME the Holy Spirit of God:

    "Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will NOT be forgiven men. (Matt 12:31)

  • Mon Mar 02, 2009 3:34 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Leviticus 25:44
    "Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves.
    Leviticus 25:46
    You can will them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly.

  • Mon Mar 02, 2009 3:05 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Gay couples sounds like the fruit of the flesh (Galatians 5:19) rather than the fruit of the Spirit of God.

    And this is going on in your church? I think you should be dealing with it. (See 1 Corinthians 5 for help)

  • Mon Mar 02, 2009 3:01 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Are you sure its not the spirit of rebellion against God?

  • Mon Mar 02, 2009 2:56 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 0

    "Forever, O Lord, your Word is settled in Heaven." Psalms 199:89

    Only on earth do people dispute the clear teachings of the Bible. In Heaven, it is forever settled. No amount of mental exercise can refute the clear teachings of the Bible.

    Marriage is ordained by God.
    Marriage is between one man and one worman for life.
    Homosexuality is rebellion against God's design and is, therefore, sin.

    Romans 1, Leviticus 18, 1 Corinthians 7, Matthew 19 and many other passages.

  • Mon Mar 02, 2009 2:05 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 2

    what spirit?

    the spirit of christ. the one who commanded us to love one another as he have loved us. the one who has been given all judgement and been put in authority of all things.


    the spirit thru which all was created........the spirit of the one who is the life, the truth , and the way.

  • Mon Mar 02, 2009 1:55 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    feet, and your point is? Reality is once again that no where in the Bible do we read where God ordains slavery and nothing you shared in your last posts changes that fact.

  • Mon Mar 02, 2009 12:46 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    Homosexual couples seems to fall much better under the fruits of the flesh (Galatians 5:19).

    All sexual activity outside of marriage between one man and one woman is sin.

    It doesn't matter how "committed" a couple is, if it is outside of marriage, it is sin.

    So, it sounds like your church should be dealing with sexual sins within the church. See 1 Corinthians 5 for instructions of what to do.

  • Mon Mar 02, 2009 12:27 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 0

    [the reason for the "yes" vote was because those voting that way, had witnessed committed believing gay relationships married or otherwise were filled with the fruit of the spirit in the same way as believing heterosexual marriages.] - Feet

    The fruit of WHICH spirit?

  • Mon Mar 02, 2009 12:03 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    IN REGARDS TO SLAVERY CONSIDER THE SLAVE LABOR CAMPS OF 1KINGS, AND WHAT DETERMINED WHO WAS PUT IN THEM.

    consider also the number of things the jews were told to do and because they didnt do them they were put in exile.

    consider also that what contributed to the 2000 years of antisemetism by believers was the jew's reputation for how they treated gentiles.

    particularlly in business.

    you are also forgetting that the jews up to the period of the exile were politheisitic. it was only a remnant that returned to isreal.

    the point being that jews being slaveowners were probably no different than those of their surrounding neighbors and in some cases couild have been worse.

    as far as after the exile...........how do you credit a culture that is capable of instanteously dragging a man out of the temple and crushing his scull over an issue of herecy........also as benevolent slave holders.?

    slavery was instituted to preserve human assets versus killing a man. if the man had no slave value he was killed. just as it was described in 1kings. there was nothing benevolent about it. it was totally mercenery. this was the social conscience of the time. that consciousness were reflected in the laws of lev.

    the ones about murder and stealing are universal but the ones about human bonding are not. those have changed as social consciousness has changed look how long it has taken for the rules about miscegnation to be reversed...........2000 years


    the spirit that shows god's attitude toward slavery is that of the 167 times that the word slave is used in scripture the majority is god telling the jews that his delivering them from slavery shows how much he cares for and loves them.

    the church chose to credit themselves with their faith in christ and pagans as being inferior and thus deserving slavery. enslaving was believers attempt to resurrect pagans from their inferiority.

    this whole attitude was reenforced by more laws instituted by the church about dealing with ethnics. these same laws were then enacted in secular bodies of govt.

  • Mon Mar 02, 2009 8:44 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    sj, but there is one thing we can know with all certainty, God in His Word only gives one design for both marriage and sexual intimacy, He's ordained only one definition for each. Marriage is that of one man and one woman united as one in the sight of God for life and sexual intimacy is reserved for the marriage bed of one man and one woman united as one in the sight of God for life through marriage. As hard as you try you will find no other options ordained by God for either one or the other.

  • Mon Mar 02, 2009 8:39 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    sj, once again you have shown no specific verses that show those who had opposed the abolition of slavery, a woman's right to vote, or inter-racial had any legitimate passages from the Word of God to support their view. God's Word gives guidance for the relationship between a master and his slave and the slave and their master, but no where do we find a passage in the Bible where God ordains the practice of slavery. Plus, I've heard the mark of Cain was being black which is a totally bogus claim and I've also heard that the descendants of Ham were black and these ideas were used to condone slavery in the South, but once again these verses are totally taken out of context to make them fit a biased point of view. Both Answers In Genesis and Dr. Anthony Evans do an excellent job at showing why in essence there is only one race of human beings, I would encourage anyone who has not heard these messages to consider checking them out.

  • Mon Mar 02, 2009 7:32 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    reedit

    but your interpretation of the law is WITHOUT any supporting witness of the spirit.

  • Sun Mar 01, 2009 11:18 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 5

    the reason for the "yes" vote was because those voting that way, had witnessed committed believing gay relationships married or otherwise were filled with the fruit of the spirit in the same way as believing heterosexual marriages.

    just as peter had witnessed that believing gentiles were filled with the spirit in the same way as believing jews, in cornelius's house.


    those voting were submitted to christ to be led by and serve of the spirit and voted accordingly. whereas all of you, having none of the same intention, instead still choose to cling to your interpretation of scriptural law. the result is to put yourself and others under your interpretation of the law, and to chastize others who refuse to be led by it.


    but your interpretation of the law is with any supporting witness of the spirit.

  • Sun Mar 01, 2009 10:43 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 4

    And early Christian tradition further clearly supported the institution of slavery. The Council of Gangra, around 340, pronounced the churchâ

  • Sun Mar 01, 2009 10:43 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 4

    The New Testament is less explicit about slavery than the Old, but still neither Jesus nor St. Paul nor any other Biblical figure recorded there says anything in opposition to the institution of slavery, though slavery was very much a part of life in Palestine and the Roman Empire during New Testament times. Jesus casually mentions slavery in the parable of the Unforgiving Servant (Mt. 18.25) and in the parable of the Watchful Slaves (Lk. 12.45), there was an opportunity for Jesus to condemn the abuses of slavery, but Jesus said nothing. In that parable, Jesus mentions how the â

  • Sun Mar 01, 2009 10:42 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 4

    well boys, you want Scriptural references. The Biblical case for slavery was strong and impressive, if not conclusive. Slavery, it was argued, was established by God in creation, found in the mark of Cain, Abelâ

  • Sun Mar 01, 2009 9:08 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    I believe the topic is getting changed here from biblical teaching to homosexuality. The language would allow for non-biblical lifestyles of the Presby clergy which includes but is not limited to homosexuality.

    A practicing womanizer could be in the Presby clergy with the rule change. Same with polygamists and homosexuals. The matter is biblical rule not sexual preference really.

    sj,

    With all due respect, your attempt to equate biblical slavery with slavery as it was and still is being practices around the world is at best based on ignorance of the role and rules of slavery put forth in Scripture. There is no comparison between the two if one reads the Torah.

    Also, someone show me where Scripture approves of sexual lusts or actions outside of a man and wife that are considered married is approved? Anything less than biblical evidence for the alternative to man and woman marriage is an attempt to pervert the church.

    Grace and Peace,
    Jim

  • Sun Mar 01, 2009 3:05 pm Agree: 5   Disagree: 0

    Perhaps, sj can clear up this misunderstanding by citing the scriptural passages that we have overlooked . . . namely the ones that explicitly support homosexuality . . .

  • Sun Mar 01, 2009 1:55 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 1

    sj, as the little old lady in the Wendy's commercial use to say, "Where's The Beef?". I simply asked you to share the passages from the Word of God that could legitamitely be used to oppose the three examples you used, plus in the past you have stood in support of defending your denomination's ordination of practicing homosexuals as well as performing same-sex marriages, so please don't get upset when some of us can read between the lines of your posts and realize you have an agenda.

  • Sun Mar 01, 2009 9:59 am Agree: 2   Disagree: 0

    Either sj can provide us with biblical passages that support homo behavior or he can't. Looks like the latter is the case.

  • Sun Mar 01, 2009 9:42 am Agree: 2   Disagree: 0

    sj,

    Nice dodge, why don't you provide your scriptural references like believer has nicely asked for? Many of us await your firm rebuttal based on GOD'S word,believer is correct btw-what your doing is trying to tar christians with the same brush,it would be like many non-believers do out of ignorance when they say why would I be a christian when look at what they did during the crusades and inquisition? GOD'S HOLY WORD is easily taken out of context and wrongly misinterpreted when the readers heart does'nt belong to GOD- I did it myself before CHRIST saved me.The truth is any one who professes to be a christian who murders,rapes,pillages in the name of GOD is NOT a christian, their god is satan though they know it not. PRAISE TO OUR LORD AND MASTER JESUS CHRIST

  • Sun Mar 01, 2009 6:44 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 6

    believer, don't put words in my mouth. My point, as clearly stated, is that self-righteous Christians in the past, like some today, boldly declare, as you have just done again, that "God's word clearly states" this or that practice, practices today which we sometimes abhor, like slavery, or detest, like the subjugation of women or the opposition to interracial marriage, or love, like democracy and the practice of usury. You think that the Scriptures opposition is so "clear" that our position cannot be changed, when it can. There is no better example of that than the issues of slavery, mentioned in every book of the Bible, proscribed and approved by God, found on the lips of Jesus, with not a word spoken against the practice, but many, many that regulate it and approve of it. And yet, today, most Christians think differently about slavery. That's my point.

  • Sat Feb 28, 2009 9:36 pm Agree: 4   Disagree: 0

    sj, once again you miss my point, I know there were Christians who were opposed to the abolition of slavery, women getting to vote, and inter-racial marriage and I know of many Christians who were not only in favor of these things, but actively involved in making them a reality. My point is has it has always been is to please cite valid passages of God's Word that were used to defend those views, which you have not done to this point. Your desire is to show that because some Christians in the past were wrong for opposing those things that we Christians who oppose same-sex marriage and the ordination of practicing homosexuals are just as wrong, the only problem is God's Word clearly states His original and only designs for both marriage and sexual intimacy and both same-sex marriage and sexual intimacy between homosexual couples violate both those designs, so to ordain a practicing homosexual would be condoning sexual practices which woefully violate that standard, we would be ordaining individuals who are willfully living in sin.

  • Sat Feb 28, 2009 1:31 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 5

    believer, I suggest you check out any history book if you are unaware of the many Christians who opposed the abolition of slavery or interracial marriage or the American Revolution against the Divinely appointed king or the subjugation of women based upon the argument that this 'new' idea was contrary to Scripture and Tradition. For your sake, I will give you one such example of the many that there are: http://docsouth.unc.edu/church/string/string.html

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