Updated 04:40 pm.EST, Sat November 21, 2009

Society|Tue, Mar. 17 2009 04:13 PM EDT

Vermonters Debate Gay Marriage Bill

By Nathan Black|Christian Post Reporter

Hundreds of traditional marriage supporters rallied Monday at the Statehouse in Montpelier, Vt., as lawmakers began work on a same-sex marriage bill.

  • Vermont
    (Photo: AP Images / Toby Talbot)
    Aroomat the Statehouse is filled with gay marriage opponents in Montpelier, Vt., Monday, March 16, 2009. Hundreds of gay marriage opponents have converged on the Vermont Statehouse to lobby lawmakers as the Legislature opens a week's worth of hearings on a same-sex marriage bill.

Opponents of the measure that would allow gays and lesbians to marry say same-sex couples already have legal rights through civil unions and believe passing a gay marriage bill would undermine traditional marriage between a man and a woman.

"The only thing our gay and lesbian friends can get from this is potentially additional social acceptance," said Steve Cable of Vt. Renewal, a group that opposes gay marriage, according to the local WCAX-TV News.

Legislative hearings began on Monday with testimonies from nearly a dozen witnesses, including law professors, religious leaders and civil rights advocates. The hearings come nine years after Vermont became the first state to permit civil unions for same-sex couples.

The bill in debate today would take the state further in legalizing same-sex marriage beginning Sept. 1. Although it won't guarantee federal benefits, supporters of the measure say it would provide societal recognition and make it easier to access benefits.

Beth Robinson, chairwoman of the Vermont Freedom to Marry Task Force, told the Senate Judiciary Committee that civil unions were a "painful compromise" that left same-sex couples feeling like second-class citizens, as reported by AP.

The Rev. Craig Bensen, who helped organize Monday's opposition rally, meanwhile argued about the impact same-sex marriage could have on children.

He said he believes children are best raised in households with one mother and one father and allowing same-sex marriage would violate the "right of children to be raised by their biological parents," according to Times Argus.

Two senators on the committee, however, did not agree with Bensen's argument.

"I would argue that a loving family is more important than a heterosexual family," Sen. Richard Sears (D-Bennington), chair of the Judiciary Committee, said, noting that he has seen numerous families with a mother and a father that are highly dysfunctional, as the local publication reported.

House and Senate leaders said earlier this month that they intend to pass the bill.

However, opponents, who wore buttons stating "Marriage – A Mother & Father for Every Child," want the measure to be placed before voters.

"If you want to know how Vermonters feel about this issue, just ask us," Bensen said, according to Times Argus.

Legislative leaders have been criticized for the timing of the bill, having introduced it at a time of economic instability.

"All of this was sprung in a fashion that I think most Vermonters - even if they are in favor of gay marriage - would recognize that the tactics being used are underhanded tactics, trying to push this through without debate," said Cable of Vt. Renewal.

On Monday, the National Organization for Marriage launched radio ads in Vermont, New Hampshire and Maine to rally support against pending same-sex marriage bills in those states.

One ad states: "New Hampshire legislators are pushing the same-sex marriage bill now. These are the same politicians who don't have time to fix our state's economic mess, balance our budget, or restrain out-of-control spending. But they have time to mess with gay marriage?"

It also warns that "kids will be taught a new way of thinking."

In the ad, a child asks: "If my Dad married a man, who would be my Mom?"

A public hearing is scheduled for Wednesday at the Vermont Statehouse.

Massachusetts and Connecticut are the only two states that allow same-sex marriage.

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  • Tue Apr 14, 2009 12:42 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    Rhi Bran, I agree.

    For my part, I wonder why people place so much emphasis on sexuality in regards to the legal marriage issue. Legal marriage allows people to be wedded regardless of their sexual preference. There's nothing to say that married people do or must engage in sexual activity. To my knowledge, there is not even a provision that states the married couple must love one another.

    All legal marriage does is assign a set of privileges -- power of attorney, tax arrangements, asset management arrangements, etc. -- to two people. Isn't legal marriage, in so many words, a form of business arrangement?

    Even in states that do not permit same-sex marriage, a gay man could legally marry a lesbian woman and be entitled to all the privileges that legal marriage provides.

    That said, I realize that legal marriage is specifically distinct from religious marriage -- which does prescribe a set of moral behaviors for the wedded couple -- but our courts have never discussed religious marriage.

    So again, why are we talking so much about sexuality, when legal marriage does not have anything to do with sex? (In many "no-fault" divorce states, divorce does not even require sexual unfaithfulness.)

  • Wed Apr 08, 2009 2:42 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    I am profoundly happy for my gay and lesbian friends, many who have been married in religious ceremonies but unable to give their spouses access to the same benefits available to me and my wife. Churches still retain the ability to shun or welcome gays. But as more and more people deal with real people instead of stereotypes the barriers to full inclusion will fall. Having been raised and educated in a theologically conservative tradition, I know how difficult it is to reexamine presuppostions. But regardless of how individual Christians or denominations feel, as Americans we ought not discriminate against citizens who are gay and lesbian. People have the right to define themselves whether others wish to accept them or not. 100 years from now, people will accept gays in the same way the church accepted the theories of Gallileo.
    PL&G

  • Mon Mar 30, 2009 11:28 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Not only is it true we live in a post Christian society, but in fact, a lot of Christians here are living with post christian beliefs;

    Such as the Bible doesn't really mean what it says and there is no need to know what it says; one can conjour the Holy Spirit at man's will to answer what has already been written.

    No one can come up with a Scriptural rebuttal to admonish me in my warning to others about false teachers, rather the best we have is man's opinion and popularity polls;

    2Ti 4:3-4 "For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables."

    No wonder Jesus had many disparaging words for the modern day church.

  • Fri Mar 27, 2009 6:52 am Agree: 4   Disagree: 2

    No need to show you where you have erred, its quite clear for everyone to see. Humble yourself, copying and pasting Bible verses does not a devout Christian make.

  • Fri Mar 27, 2009 1:55 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 3

    What a dazzling display of satanic wrath, grace. It is truly apparent that from out of the abundance of the HEART the mouth SPEAKS.

    If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion is vain. (James 1:26)

    But the tongue can no man tame; it is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison.(James 3:8)

    But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment. (Matt 12:36)

    Your hatred of me is from satan and without just cause from any other source BUT satan.
    The Holy Spirit does not operate in the way you have here.

    We are told in Scripture from WHICH IS THE ONLY PLACE we should be "hearing" the Holy Spirit that we are to admonish one another:

    "And I myself also am persuaded of you, my brethren, that ye also are full of goodness, filled with all knowledge, able also to admonish one another."

    I can apply this verse to my admonishment but you cannot apply it to your rebuke of me.

    Certainly, God would never admonish one in such a way, so your posts are not from God but from the enemy of our souls; from the very pit of hell.

    Unless you can gather a hold of yourself and gain some self disipline, then you would be best off not to continue to speak out in such a sinful way.

    "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for CORRECTION, for instruction in righteousness.

  • Thu Mar 26, 2009 11:12 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 3

    Good night and good bye Delight. I am thru with you. You do not have an ear to hear and eyes to see the error of your ways. I am not interested in discussing this issue with you any longer. I have said all I care to say about the topic. Maybe one day God will deal with you in your sin.

  • Thu Mar 26, 2009 10:56 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 3

    Delight says to Grace2: "YOU simply don't know Scripture enough to HEAR the Holy Spirit."

    Grace2 says to DelighntheLord:"You don't know the Savior enough to appropriately admonish another believer in his walk with God."

  • Thu Mar 26, 2009 10:32 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 3

    DelightntheLord

    You are like the Catholic clergy that thinks they take the place of Almighty God on this earth and has the power to tell people what God wants for them in their life and by God if they don't hear it and repent then they are in rebellion against God.

    believer already has told you that if God should tell him to stop communicating with Gnosticgirl then he will do it. Why don't you listen to him?

    You are wanting to take the place of God in the lives of these two men. You are out of bounds to do so. You have usursped your position and are trying to take on a position that belongs only to God.

    How do you know that God wants you, believer, and mathetes to stop dialoguing with Gnosticgirl? Has God told you? Do you apply the scriptures to your relationship with her because you can not control what she thinks? So, because you can't change her you accuse her of being in rebellion, not wanting to know truth, is not a sincere seeker of truth, is the anti-christ and etc? Or did God tell you either in prayer or in your heart that it is time for you to move on? What is your motive for trying to tell believer and mathetes that God says that they should move on and not dialogue with Gnosticgirl? Don't you think that God is able to tell them Himself if that should be His will for them?

    God directs the heart of believers into the love of God (2 Thess 3:5). The love of God is to keep His commandments (1 John 5:3). When it is God's will for believer or mathetes to leave a discussion then I assume that they will obey and they will do so.

    God loves Gnosticgirl. He wants her and all of us to understand His Word and His will for our lives. She seems to me to be sincere, truthful in how she see things, and someone who wants to learn. Maybe there is something that believer and mathetes can share with her that will help her understand more better God's love for her and His will for her life. And you know, there might just be an understanding or an insight that she has that might help them as well in some kind of way.

    You are not a spiritual guru that all must bow their knee to in order to be right with God. Stop trying to take the place of God in their lives.

  • Thu Mar 26, 2009 9:41 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 3

    Listen to your "godly" tone Grace; I cannot hear the Holy Spirit in your words.

    I used ALL Scripture and NO ONE can show me WITH SCRIPTURE where I have erred. All I hear is a temper tantrum and lack of self control, love and disciple which tells me the Holy Spirit does not speak through you.

    If you worldly "christians" have your way, the Christian Post will end up a FORUM for the anti-christ and all kind of false teachings and perversion.

    With all the warnings in Scripture about destructiveness of false doctrine, I am still amazed that so many take offense (and quickly!) when a brother warns you with Scripture.

    Ever read the warning letters from Christ in Revelation?
    Here's one for you:

    Rev 3:14 "And to the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write, 'These things says the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God:


    Rev 3:15 "I know your works, that you are neither cold nor hot. I could wish you were cold or hot.


    Rev 3:16 So then, because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will vomit you out of My mouth.


    YOU simply don't know Scripture enough to HEAR the Holy Spirit.

  • Thu Mar 26, 2009 2:01 pm Agree: 5   Disagree: 5

    DelightntheLord, is God chastizng you for your ungodly deeds of the flesh, your pride, arrogancy, self-righteousness, judgementalism, hypocrisy, and ect? If not, then maybe you aren't really a child of God like you claim. Or maybe God isn't ready yet to do so.

    Don't judge another when you are just as guilty of what you say he/she is guilty of.

    The Chruch of Jesus Christ would be better off without people like you.

  • Thu Mar 26, 2009 1:53 pm Agree: 4   Disagree: 4

    DelightntheLord

    Do you know what it means to have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ? Based on the kind of comments you make to believer and mathetes about them continuing to dialogue with Gnosticgirl, I rather doubt it.

    When it is time for believer and mathetes to move on God will let them know. Why don't you mind your own business and allow God to direct the pathes of these two Christian men.

    I think you are wanting to end your dialogue with Gnosticgirl because you don't like it because you can't control her thoughts. You are not God and it is not for you decide when she hears the truth. God will give her an ear to hear when He decides. God works through prayer. Have you been praying for Gnosticgirl that God give her an ear to hear and eyes to see? Or are you just relying on your knowledge of scripture hoping that your words will be anointed and when they are not you are quick to write her off and deem her unworthy of your time to dialogue with?

    You are a control freak.

    At this point believer and mathetes want to continue to dialogue with her and they have given their reasons which I find scriptural and sound. When it is time God will implement those scriptures in their life. It is for Him to decide not you.

    You are not God. Back off and let the Holy Spirit of God do His job. God doesn't work on your time table He works on His own. Get your flesh out of the way - your pride, arrogancy, self-righteousness, judgementalism, hypocrisy, unloving spirit,.... It stinks.

  • Wed Mar 25, 2009 10:23 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    delight, plus trust me those cheerers are not cheering me just you my responses to jeer you and trust me I know it is very difficult to carry on meaningful dialogue while getting rude comments from the peanut gallery! And know that I find your posts to be biblically sound and thorough and very if not totally supportive of my point of view and more importantly God's point of view in these matters.

  • Wed Mar 25, 2009 10:18 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    delight, first of all I truly do appreciate and covet your prayers as God leads me to respond and minister and I am not denying that God indeed does tell us to test the spirits and since you have shared what you are sensing from God in this matter I have been more cautious in my responses, but at this point God has not specifically said to me to stop my dialogue with ggirl, but He has shown me that with other posters. That was my concern about the chastising I spoke to. So once again I am not discounting or questioning God's commands in these areas, but I have not felt compelled by God at this point to stop the dialogue, but if and when I do I will indeed stop the dialogue.

  • Wed Mar 25, 2009 7:49 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 6

    Believer,

    You are 'hearing' the opposite of what Scripture counsels and you aren't testing the spirits nor wielding a sword for battle. And look at your gallery of cheerers... that alone should tell you something. Take another look believer. You've got a blind spot.

    "For whom the LORD loves He chastens, And scourges every son whom He receives."
    If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons;
    for what son is there whom a father does not chasten?

    ***But if you are without chastening, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons."

    "He who disdains instruction despises his own soul, But he who heeds rebuke gets understanding."

    I pray strength, wisdom and protection for you.
    Do know, my ministry to you is as important as your ministry to the lost.

  • Wed Mar 25, 2009 4:46 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 1

    "but please don't chastise other believers who perhaps are hearing just the opposite from God!"

    And haven't many of us been saying the same thing? Mike, Feet, myself and others? When did that become important to you?

  • Wed Mar 25, 2009 3:56 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 4

    delight, I'd be a liar to say that part of my reason for being here was not for the love of debate, but as God leads I do share the Scriptures with others to include ggirl.
    But right now I'm more concerned with your upset with this, once again if God has told you to longer dialogue with ggirl then don't, but please don't chastise other believers who perhaps are hearing just the opposite from God!

  • Wed Mar 25, 2009 3:08 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 4

    Isa 55:11 "So shall My word be that goes forth from My mouth; It shall not return to Me void, But it shall accomplish what I please, And it shall prosper in the thing for which I sent it."

    I'm getting it now, Believer; Scripture is not debatable so you don't use it in your posts.

    How has that come to be in view of the above promise in Scripture that you wouldn't USE it LIBERALLY to reach the lost?

    God promises His Words will not return void but will accomplish and prosper His Will and what He pleases.

    Now, I ask myself...why would someone who SEEMS to have a love for the lost and desire to be an evangelist NOT quote the Supernatural WORD OF GOD in his posts to the lost...scarcely ever.

    Huh, I totally get it: YOU ARE HERE ONLY FOR THE LOVE OF THE DEBATE.

    Wow. What a fleshly pursuit. You're toast in the hands of a false teacher. I'm out.

  • Wed Mar 25, 2009 2:06 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 1

    I am not trying to preach any particular belief. I quoted from the Gospel of Thomas, in a different thread, which I feel was relevant. I have not been uncivil or rude - actually have asked for blessing upon those who show hatred/anger towards me and others. I am here for learning and understanding. I have said what some of my beliefs are, but they have been twisted by some. Which I must have faith is happening for a reason. In the end, I will adhere to the wisdom of my Christian Great Grandmother who said "You attract more flies with honey than with vinegar". It means kindness goes a lot farther than ugliness.

  • Wed Mar 25, 2009 2:03 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 2

    "if indeed God has not directed me to do so"

    How does this verse not direct you to such? WHO is it referring to, if not a proud Gnostic. Have You asked her who Jesus is and did she answer affirmative that He alone is God in the flesh. No?

    There is a difference between blindness of which we all had before we came to Christ and the spirit of anti-christ, otherwise there would be no strong warning for this particular spirit in Scripture.

    Look at Paul's conversion, God directly intervened on the road to Damascus with him, He didn't use others, much the same way of my salvation experience. Paul was not won by the preaching of the gospel from the diciples.

    How big a part do we really play in another's salvation? It is true that God draws us to Him first and hence, whom He has drawn is able to hear Him.

    So, you DO believe that the Holy Spirit will give us "extra revelation" over and above what is written in His Word. That's a slippery slope.

    You know, you are not providing any Scripture to back up your assertions here, rather it seems you only try and nullify the Scripture I used with your opinions. Hmmm, that's odd, for one persuaded by God.

  • Wed Mar 25, 2009 1:41 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    delight, I'm not discounting those passages, but at the same time I don't want to pre-maturely leave a discussion if indeed God has not directed me to do so. Let's face it if the moment we read a post where a false doctrine was being promoted we'd be having very few discussions with other posters and in fact I imagine for some of us prior to our conversion we were promoting some of those very same false beliefs and doctrines, but fortunately Christians and more than likely the very Christian God used to bring us to Him kept interacting with us in spite of the false beliefs and doctrines we shared.

  • Wed Mar 25, 2009 1:36 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Also, do you believe that the Holy Spirit will give us "extra revelation" over and above what is written in His Word?

  • Wed Mar 25, 2009 1:16 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    I don't mean to be merely argumentative here with you, believer, but let me ask you:

    How many other scriptures do you handle in this way; using your own understanding before obeying the words of Scripture? Do you recommend this approach to scripture to others?
    Who decides who gets saved, you or God? Who has the Power to save, you or God?

    Really, read 2 John, you will lose reward and take on accountability for evil deeds of such a one. What does that mean to you?

    My husband pointed out an interesting phenomenon to me he saw in addressing this particular poster; is it because she is a woman that you feel you must "rescue" or "protect"? I don't think he'd mind my sharing that insight, he also saw it in Mathetes responses as well.

  • Wed Mar 25, 2009 12:52 pm Agree: 3   Disagree: 1

    "Who the hell do you think you are?"

    Ah yes, the $64K question. LOL

  • Wed Mar 25, 2009 12:24 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 2

    delight, I totally agree with your view of testing the spirits, but I've not come to that decision with regards to ggirl, but that's not to say God will not bring me to that point and when and if He does like you I will disengage from the discussion with ggirl or anyone else God shows me that in.

  • Wed Mar 25, 2009 11:29 am Agree: 3   Disagree: 1

    Delight, never address a post to you again? Who the hell do you think you are? You judge and judge and judge, its not righteous anger, its blatant hypocrisy! Want to talk about sin? Check out a mirror and I'm sure you'll find plenty. I can and will address a post to you if I have something to say to you. You can choose not to read it if you so choose, but I doubt you'll pass up the chance to share your superior Biblical knowledge with the rest of the class.

  • Wed Mar 25, 2009 11:06 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    mathetes - what do you think of this site for a starting place towards the original text we talked about yesterday? http://www.mechanical-translation.org/index.html

    I just stumbled upon this last night actually and am not sure how I did not see it before. Thank you in advance for your advise.

  • Wed Mar 25, 2009 10:45 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 2

    Believer,

    What part of "If anyone comes to you and does not bring this doctrine, do not receive him into your house NOR GREET him; for he who greets him shares in his evil deeds" do you not understand? Or, is it you disagree with the warning in 2 John?

    Why do you refuse to test the spirits yourself and choose to ignore Scripture when someone fails the test; do you trust in your understanding of this situation more than you trust God's warning?

    Perhaps you might look at WHY we are admonished in this way; could it be that there is something so persuasive in the spirit of anti-christ that may cause a Christian to stumble? Or, could it be sheer futility in trying to win one to Christ over the objection of God? What is wrong with honoring God's Word? Believing what He says rather than doing what is right in your own eyes?

    How is one to accept and submit to Christ when they believe they have the divine within them and a "better" or "higher" form of religious belief than you?

    The spirit of anti-christ is not a spirit that will accept Christ, no matter how many times you care to share the gospel with them and to even greet such a one is to disobey the warning in 2 John and share in their evil deeds.

    You've already mentioned she is too "deep" for you and I believe she would slice and dice you and cook you up in an omelette if you go head to head with her, since it appears you use very little scripture to refute most error on these boards and know nothing of Gnostic belief.
    And more importantly, you would be in opposition to God from the words of this scripture to continue to entertain the spirit of anti-christ. YOU are able to counsel, witness and share the gospel to win a soul when God cannot or will not? what vanity.

    Watch out for the snake oil.

  • Wed Mar 25, 2009 10:15 am Agree: 3   Disagree: 1

    "What you see is not hostility but righteous anger for Christians who refuse to excercise biblical discernment instead perfer to be a friend with the world. But you wouldn't get that, being up to your eyeballs in sin and a counterfeit Christian confession.
    Never address a post to me again. "

    Well that has to be the nastiest most un-Christian post of the board. Congratulations!

  • Wed Mar 25, 2009 10:03 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 3

    Mike,
    Pro 26:17 "He who passes by and meddles in a quarrel not his own Is like one who takes a dog by the ears."

    What you see is not hostility but righteous anger for Christians who refuse to excercise biblical discernment instead perfer to be a friend with the world. But you wouldn't get that, being up to your eyeballs in sin and a counterfeit Christian confession.
    Never address a post to me again.

  • Wed Mar 25, 2009 10:00 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

    First I want to say thank you to those kind enough to speak with me civilly, particularly yesterday with believer and mathetes. I also truly wish for the blessings of God to be on all of us here. It is true I do not see things the way others do, and history has made the idea of Gnostisim very heretical. But the root of that word is knowledge, and it suits my spiritual pursuit well. Just as there are a number of different denominations, there are also a number of different kinds of gnostic beliefs - some of which are pretty far out there - like the Manichean(sp) (which I do not understand). Anyway, I appreciate Delight and others for their beliefs and passion...even though I do not like their approach, it is theirs and God has obviously called them in this way. Nevertheless, I will apologize when I have wronged, step up to the plate when I need too, and continue to hear the call in my heart for knowledge. Where that leads me, I hope, is the Truth. (Capital T truth). You all have a good day. And again thank you.

  • Wed Mar 25, 2009 8:17 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    delight, on another site I did indeed share with ggirl what it took for a person to become a Christian and I do indeed pray for her as I do several other gnostic posters and once again I'm not saying you're wrong for you not posting with her and for your word of caution to the rest of us, but now it is up to each of us individually to seek direction from God as to whether we should continue our posting with her. I for one genuinely appreciate your boldness in the way you respond to issues and look forward to reading them and I appreciate your advice and concern in matters like this.

  • Wed Mar 25, 2009 6:18 am Agree: 3   Disagree: 0

    Delight, you need to stop attacking everyone who had a different biblical view than you! Humble yourself and have a real conversation! (I am not trying to jump in because I think y'all have a great dialogue going on, but your hostility towards everyone is simply unchristian.

  • Wed Mar 25, 2009 2:12 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 2

    Mathetes the corrector of the Brethren,

    Some things cannot wait for the rising of the sun. Let me introduce you to the book of 2 John, dedicated solely to Gnostic teachers:

    2Jo 1:7 For many deceivers have gone out into the world who do not confess Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.


    2Jo 1:8 Look to yourselves, that we do not lose those things we worked for, but that we may receive a full reward.


    2Jo 1:9 Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ DOES NOT HAVE GOD. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son.


    2Jo 1:10 If anyone comes to you and does not bring this doctrine, do not receive him into your house NOR GREET him;


    2Jo 1:11 for he who greets him shares in his evil deeds.

    "DO NOT EVEN GREET SUCH A ONE OR YOU SHARE IN HIS EVIL DEEDS."

    Mathetes; How dare you have the audacity to "God Bless" the spirit of anti-christ and turn around and correct me for following Scripture!!

    To answer your question as to whether or not I have believed something only to find out later is wrong the answer is NO when following the dictates of Scripture and the Holy Spirit.

    You, who have alluded to yourself as a teacher need to examine yourself and stop trying to correct biblical obedience in a brother and stop encouraging the deeds of Christ-deniers. You have shown in this confrontation with me that you lean toward love of the world more than your love of God. You certainly have shown here more love for the spirit of anti-christ than for a brother in Christ.

    No wonder there are so many demons posting comments here without any bold speech from either you or Believer.

    PS Thanks Jehovanissi for your encouragement.

  • Tue Mar 24, 2009 10:55 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Thanks, Believer. I agree; if Delight feels he shouldn't talk with her, then he should not - I won't make him. I wanted him to see someone talked to him when he was lost; good thing no one stopped that person from talking to Delight!

  • Tue Mar 24, 2009 10:36 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    And you have failed to answer mine:

    Why does Scripture tell us to test the spirits?

    For what purpose?

    Catch you tomorrow.

  • Tue Mar 24, 2009 10:34 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    Believer,

    Are we judging from appearance alone? She seems so civil and nice as promotes her sweet gnostic gospel and the ambassadors of Christ are so taken with her ability to listen and disagree so politely, they entertain and amuse her with non-essential things while she throws doubt on the whole word of God in public.

    No one among you thus far, shall commit the social faux pas and tell her she's promoting the doctrine of demons. But she's so enjoyable to post with! Absurd. Why does Satan diguise himself as an angel of light? To be heard and then to deceive.

    Some of you tolerate heresy very well and refuse to judge righteous judgment; because that seems so...so..."unloving".

    No one has been so bold as to share even the Gospel with her, so that she can agree or disagree. And you all believe somehow, over the internet, you can persuade her to accept Christ through your skillful agrument.

    When was the last time THAT happened?

    If you feel so strongly, then put her on your prayer list.

    I'm out.

  • Tue Mar 24, 2009 10:18 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    Again you don't answer any questions. You obviously are not interested in dialogue, only pontificating. Sorry for bothering you.

  • Tue Mar 24, 2009 10:16 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    "But to expose the works of darkness, which is what I did. "

    Sadly, you have exposed just that in yourself. As a suggestion, why not put aside all your anger and rage at homosexuals and come to Christ out of love? I still don't get all this hate and rage against people who have done nothing to you. I've seen the things you and others have said to Mike who is in what appears to be a loving relationship with another man for some years. Yet all you do spew venom about him and his relationship because for some bizarre reason you don't like it. Vermont seems to get what you miss. Same sex couples love each other just as much as opposite sex couples, they form families, raise children and contribute to their communities, yet they are dismissed as undeserving. That is despicable and un-Christian no matter how much you would like to distort Christianity into something ugly and hate filled, it isn't and there are many many of us who will not stand idly by while you attempt to make people follow your warped agenda.

  • Tue Mar 24, 2009 9:51 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    Better yet, does God want you to persuade the spirit of anti-christ?

    This is a little bit more than "wrong" beliefs, this is heretical false teaching from someone who believes she has higher truth than you do.

    Why test the spirits if not to distingish between false christs and true seekers?

    What is this testing for, if not for that?

    Scripture doesn't tell us to go about arguing with them so that we win them to the kingdom.
    But to expose the works of darkness, which is what I did.

  • Tue Mar 24, 2009 9:44 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Delight,
    You don't want me to talk to a lost person because she has wrong ideas. How many lost people you know who have right beliefs? How are they going to get saved if you don't talk to them? How often do you write off lost people because they have wrong beliefs?

    Those are not rhetorical questions. I would really like to understand you.

  • Tue Mar 24, 2009 9:38 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 2

    delight, I sort of enjoy posting with ggirl because she is both civil and thoughtful, but at times a little to deep for me. I say that to say this I sense that although she has her mind made up in many areas at least she is willing to listen unlike some others we know. As a result of her willingness to listen I would say even though God may be telling you to end your dialogue with her, He indeed may be saying to mathetes and others to press on, but at the same time we do need to be cautious as you have pointed out. After all I've met people who sat under a certain preachers preaching and teaching for years and refused to respond and then God brings a total Christian stranger into their life who shares the Gospel and they respond immediately!

  • Tue Mar 24, 2009 9:30 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Mathetes,

    How'd you come up with that?

    We are talking about being able to hear the truth of God:

    "We are of God. He who knows God HEARS us; he who is not of God does not HEAR us.

    Do you think the anti-christ spirit can hear the things of God?

    If so, why does Scripture make a differentiation between those of God and those not being able to receive truth?

    Is it loving to allow the spirit of anti-christ promote Gnosticism on a Christian website for the sake of a little scholarly chit-chat?

    Do you think God would approve of that?

    Was Paul hospitable to false teachers?

    Where exactly DO you draw the line?

    After the leaven has taken hold?

  • Tue Mar 24, 2009 9:11 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Delight,
    1 John 4:6 "We are from God. Whoever knows God listens to us, and whoever is not from God does not listen to us. From this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error."

    So you want to take this in a hyper-literalist fashion? We can't talk to the unsaved? How are they supposed to get saved?

    So again, did you ever believe anything you later learned was wrong? How did you learn it?

  • Tue Mar 24, 2009 8:43 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    And I was told I would go to hell by a seemingly mean spirited minister of the Gospel and I was still able to come to Christ.

    So, something larger must be afoot. Perhaps 1 John 4:6?

  • Tue Mar 24, 2009 8:35 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    Surely, your personal experience doesn't negate testing of spirits?

  • Tue Mar 24, 2009 8:13 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Delight, did you ever believe something you later found out was wrong?

    I did. You know how I found out it was wrong? Something cared enough to talk to me + patiently lead me to the truth.
    Your warnings are duly noted.

  • Tue Mar 24, 2009 7:20 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    By way of reminder to those who don't like my previous post:

    Eph 5:11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather expose them.


    Eph 5:12 For it is shameful even to speak of those things which are done by them in secret.


    Eph 5:13 But all things that are exposed are made manifest by the light, for whatever makes manifest is light.


    Eph 5:14 Therefore He says: "Awake, you who sleep, Arise from the dead, And Christ will give you light."


    Eph 5:15 See then that you walk circumspectly, not as fools but as wise,


    Eph 5:16 redeeming the time, because the days are evil.

  • Tue Mar 24, 2009 6:45 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    My concern for having to bring up the test and the priority of Who Christ is over mere scholarly inquiry, is the propensity for some to ignore Scripture over the desire to seem "nice" by the world's standards. We have been warned about the spirit of anti-christ but a lot of times we fail to test it when confronted with it.

    Because of this we fail also to defend the Gospel but become side-tracked by non essentials and go down rabbit trails hand in hand with the spirit of error. I've never seen once Jesus supplying evidence and proof texts to the Scripture He quoted. That is because after the warning to test the spirits in 1 John 4, verse 6 goes on to say:

    "We are of God. He who knows God hears us; he who is not of God does not hear us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error."

    If someone is truly seeking God, they will have ears to hear, God can speak to them.

    But once someone has rejected the Word of God and refutes sound teaching, they close their ears (and heart) and no amount of searching the Greek texts nor scholarly pursuit will cause them to come to the knowledge of the truth; especially once they deny the deity of Christ and fail the test of 1 John 4.

    Not many who come to this website are seekers, most have an agenda to promote and as discerning Christians we must know the differences between a scoffer, a seeker and a false teacher looking for an audience; that is why we have been given instruction to test the spirits.

    If friendship with the world becomes more important than testing the spirits, then we need to consider another Scripture: "Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Whoever therefore wants to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God."

    It should cause us to pause and examine ourselves.

  • Tue Mar 24, 2009 5:03 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Just a note to the discerning Christians here:

    GG makes it sound as if she is a seeker, however she has already told us what she believes:

    From Uganda story, March 20 3:33pm.

    "Actually Delight - it is scripture, just not one you espouse to. It is Gnostic Scripture. Also, I believe the Divine is in all things."

    So, for those of you who would like to indulge in some type of scholarly persuit in order for her to see the wisdom of a saving faith in Christ, do understand the Gnostic Gospel claims Christ to be an ascended master and not God in the flesh.

    Remember, we are called to test the spirits:

    1Jo 4:1 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world.


    1Jo 4:2 By this you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God,


    1Jo 4:3 and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard was coming, and is now already in the world."

    The larger issue is Who Is Christ, not whether one can research the Greek texts properly.

  • Tue Mar 24, 2009 4:54 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    GG,
    In the standard translations of the Dead Sea Scrolls, you probably won't find most of their copies of Gen-Deut. Most DSS books just contain translations of the scrolls peculiar to that community (Essenes?) like the War Scroll, the Community Rule, etc. It might be difficult to find either copies or translations of the OT books they used, though I'm sure they are out there somewhere. Let me know what you find.

    God bless you and your search for truth.

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