Updated 12:58 pm.EST, Sat November 21, 2009

Education|Mon, Mar. 23 2009 04:12 PM EDT

Pastor Tackles Truth, New Age Spirituality, Mormonism

By Lillian Kwon|Christian Post Reporter

Today, many people generally view Mormons as a people with strong family values and clean living, according to one pastor at McLean Bible Church. Some also believe they are just one of many Christian denominations.

But that view is the result of a multibillion dollar campaign over the last couple of decades by Mormons who have attempted to present themselves in such a way, according to Todd Phillips, teaching pastor at Frontline, the young adult ministry of McLean in Virginia.

Many Americans, including Christians, see Mormons as "just another branch of Christianity who talk about Jesus all the time and likely do a better job at adhering to family values than most Christian do in churches in America," Phillips told hundreds attending service and watching over the Internet on Sunday.

That perspective, however, is in stark contrast to just 50 years ago, when Mormons were seen as "conservative, countercultural religious zealots who didn't drink alcohol or coffee, or smoked cigarettes and lived in Utah with several wives," Phillips said.

"They were also marked by many as radical communalists and polygamists out to destroy even the concept of the traditional family."

They were perceived as a heretical Christian sect at best and a cult at worst, he noted.

As part of a seven-week sermon series, Phillips was attempting to answer the question of whether Mormonism and biblical Christianity are the same.

Over the last several weeks, Frontline has been tackling some of the most frequently asked religion questions from the pulpit in hopes of helping both Christians and non-Christians move closer to grasping truth.

"Destination Truth" is the current series being preached by Phillips and so far the series has touched on truth, tolerance, fairness (about Jesus being the only way), world religions and New Age spirituality – which is being promoted by such popular figures as Oprah Winfrey. Mormonism was the latest topic addressed.

"We're not here tonight to decide whether Mormons are nice people," Phillips clarified, noting that they are. "What we are trying to figure out here is if they adhere to true historic Christian faith."

After putting Mormonism – one of the fastest growing religions in the United States with nearly 6 million members – in historical context, the Frontline pastor cited Mormon doctrines and the Book of Mormon to illustrate that the religious sect does not align with historic Christianity. In fact, it preaches a false gospel, Phillips indicated.

Among the Mormon beliefs that are contrary to core Christian doctrines is the rejection of the validity and veracity of the Bible.

"Historic Christianity ... we believe that we have only one source for ultimate eternal truth and that is the holy Bible," Phillips stressed.

But Mormons "believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly," according to an article of faith of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, the official name for the Mormon church.

That statement indicates that the Bible is impossible to be correctly translated because it is corrupted by corrupt churches, Phillips noted.

Mormons believe that the proper translation of what God wants believers to know is found in another source – the Book of Mormon.

Mormonism also denies the deity of Christ and "completely negates the biblical view of salvation through Christ alone," Phillips said. Continue »

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  • Tue Apr 07, 2009 1:38 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Prop:

    You wrote:
    "God is only one God. That is unquestionable. But He is three expressions"

    This definition is very close to Modalism. The United Pentecostal and United Apostolic Churches hold to this view, but all other Christian Churches reject it as heresy.


    You also wrote:
    "And to take our finite minds and try to understand infinite things outside of His Word, is spiritual suicide."

    You mean such as the concept that the earth is not the center of the universe? In the 1600s, the Christian Church taught that the earth is the center of the universe and everything revolves around it, and cited scriptures for it.

    If the whole world conformed to Christian interpretation of God's word, we'd still believe it today.

    Yet, scientists went out into the reality of God's creations and found evidence of his truths, OUTSIDE Christian interpretation of scripture.

    What did they find? Truth.

    Did spiritual suicide occur? No.

    Going outside traditional Christian interpretation of the Bible is necessary to avoid spiritual fantasies.

  • Thu Apr 02, 2009 5:38 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    God is only one God. That is unquestionable. But He is three expressions. The mystery of the trinity is as mysterious as a God who has no beginning and no end, and created everything in six days out of nothing with just His Word. And to take our finite minds and try to understand infinite things outside of His Word, is spiritual suicide. And only breeds the doctrines of devils (as evident in Joseph Smith).

  • Thu Apr 02, 2009 5:33 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Mormons view of this issue:

    But so and so said it was wrong.

  • Thu Apr 02, 2009 5:31 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    "Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am." John 8:58. That proves both points. Jesus was around before Abraham, and He is God. He said "Before Abraham was, I am." Though we would think that it is grammatically incorrect, it is not. Jesus was using the same as God when He visited Moses at the burning bush.

    "And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ" Ephesians 3:9. Jesus was there at creation and created all things.

    "For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
    And he is before all things, and by him all things consist." Colossians 1:16-17. Again, we see Jesus there at the beginning of creation, and being the creator.

  • Thu Apr 02, 2009 5:31 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    The truth about Jesus and God being the same, and that Jesus was, in fact, in existence before the universe was created (complete with explanation for the spiritually and biblically challenged):

    "And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness..." Genesis 1:26. First note that God said "let US make man in OUR image, after OUR likeness..." which denotes that there was more than one. But hold on...He said "Let us make man in our IMAGE..." The word "image" is singular.

    "Then Nebuchadnezzar the king was astonished, and rose up in haste, and spake, and said unto his counsellors, Did not we cast three men bound into the midst of the fire? They answered and said unto the king, True, O king. He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God." Daniel 3:24-25. This is the account of Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego. As we see, Jesus (the Son of God) visited them in the furnace. And it's amazing that even a pagan king knew who it was, and yet Mormons can't. Go figure.

    "The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool." Psalms 110:1 Again, God is talking to someone else. Hmm. Stephen saw Jesus at the right hand of God. So, we see again that Jesus was in existence before His virgin birth, and that He and God are one. "My Lord said unto my Lord...."

    "For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace." Isaiah 9:6. So we see that a child will be born (Jesus) and His name is the Mighty God, the everlasting Father. The trinity and oneness explained again.

    "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
    The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made...And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.) John 1:1-3 and 14. So again, we see the trinity, as well as Jesus being in existence at the beginning of time.

  • Thu Apr 02, 2009 5:02 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    roy, nobody got a spanking, we just got a taste of how brainwashed members of the mormon cult can be and how adept they are at twisting and discounting both God's Word and the words of posters defending God's inerrant Word.

  • Thu Apr 02, 2009 4:53 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    "The original Saints never had a day without persecution, why should the Latter-days be any different. The only difference is that anti-Mormonism has intensified from the Homosexual community."

    Amen again. Those of us who walk in the Truth are still persecuted by those who do not. It is a burden I bear, but it is still hard.

  • Thu Apr 02, 2009 4:52 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    "You guys just got a pants-down spanking by James. Wow. Disagree as much as you like but he knows his facts. All you could do in response is shout insults like, "you're a cult", or "you're the devil". I left an earlier comment asking if anti-Mormonism is dead. It isn't dead and it never will be until Satan is bound."

    Amen. At that point Smith and all those who follow that false doctrine will be bound with him, so then there will be no more anti-mormonism, because Mormonism will be destroyed.

  • Thu Apr 02, 2009 4:50 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    "Which side are the Evangelicals going to take? Are they going to pretend they haven't bashed
    Mormons for 180 years and come to our defense? Are Evangelicals (much like Dr. Richard Mouw has) going to apologize for years of deplorable anti-Mormon bigotry and find common ground? Only time will tell."

    I can't speak for other Christians, but I take the side of the Word of God.

  • Thu Apr 02, 2009 4:49 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    "Proposition 8 in California changed the rules. Now when evangelicals bash Mormons they have the Homosexuals bashing with them shoulder-to-shoulder. Uh-oh."

    Again, what's your point? I know atheists that fought along side with Christians and Mormons on the Proposition 8 issue. At least James had somewhat mature arguments.

  • Thu Apr 02, 2009 4:48 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    "How was it that the Pharisee accused Christ of casting out devils by the power of the Devil? Is it this same power of the Devil that Mormons do good? A kingdom that is divided can't stand."

    Even pagans do good works. What's your point?

  • Thu Apr 02, 2009 4:47 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    "You guys just got a pants-down spanking by James."

    LOL. Okay. If you say so. But I guess if you delete half the Bible, I can see your point. But since true Christians adhere to the Bible, we know that Mormonism has no connection with God. Spank my butt all you want. I still walk in the Truth. And I pray for those who are blinded by the false doctrines of the LDS. I hope someday, before it's too late, that all those will come to know Him as who He really is, instead of what a false prophet says He is.

  • Thu Apr 02, 2009 4:08 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    You guys just got a pants-down spanking by James. Wow. Disagree as much as you like but he knows his facts. All you could do in response is shout insults like, "you're a cult", or "you're the devil". I left an earlier comment asking if anti-Mormonism is dead. It isn't dead and it never will be until Satan is bound. The original Saints never had a day without persecution, why should the Latter-days be any different. The only difference is that anti-Mormonism has intensified from the Homosexual community.

    How was it that the Pharisee accused Christ of casting out devils by the power of the Devil? Is it this same power of the Devil that Mormons do good? A kingdom that is divided can't stand.

    Proposition 8 in California changed the rules. Now when evangelicals bash Mormons they have the Homosexuals bashing with them shoulder-to-shoulder. Uh-oh.

    Which side are the Evangelicals going to take? Are they going to pretend they haven't bashed
    Mormons for 180 years and come to our defense? Are Evangelicals (much like Dr. Richard Mouw has) going to apologize for years of deplorable anti-Mormon bigotry and find common ground? Only time will tell.

    What has not changed are the Evangelical accusations. They have always been the same. They have always been intense, yet the LDS Church gets more appealing to honest truth seekers every day. In the words of the Prophet Joseph Smith;

    "The Standard of Truth has been erected; no unhallowed hand can stop the work from progressing; persecutions may rage, mobs may combine, armies may assemble, calumny may defame, but the truth of God will go forth boldly, nobly, and independent, till it has penetrated every continent, visited every clime, swept every country, and sounded in every ear, till the purposes of God shall be accomplished, and the Great Jehovah shall say the work is done."

    Thanks guys for the discussion. 'Til we meet again.

  • Thu Apr 02, 2009 12:05 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    "Prop's last comment got cut off at the end... I finished it for him to accurately represent reality.

    "All the truth to substantiate my comment has been posted and found to be accurate..IN MY MIND ONLY."



    As you have shown, it is the nature of Mormonism to take the truth and add lies to it. Just as Smith did. And just as your father, satan, does.

  • Thu Apr 02, 2009 1:04 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    All:

    It's time to move on to more weightier things.

    Thank you for the chat and the debate. You'll probably see me around a few more times on other articles. I wish you all the best in your lives and hope you find peace and prosperity. I'll leave room for hope that you'll find the fullness of the gospel someday as well.

    Remember,

    James 1: 27
    Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

    and,

    Matt 25:40
    40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

  • Thu Apr 02, 2009 1:04 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Hawk:

    You find Mormonism to be false because you want it to be false. You look for contradictions from anti-Mormons but fail to look any further. Anti-Mormon sites and especially Evangelical Christians have a bias when reporting about Mormonism. They will leave out any information that invalidates their criticism.

    Atheists love to point out contradictions between the Old and New Testament or within the New Testament and we encourage them to understand that there are reasons why such contradictions appear so.

    Did yo know that anti-Mormon sites continue to leave old criticisms up that have been refuted or outright disproved? I ought to know, I have studied anti-Mormonism for about 23 years.

    Hawk you want your tradition to be true and you will selectively admit only those evidences or consider those sources that prop up your desire and the picture that you want to see. Yours is a subjective process.

    In truth, Mormon theology and philosophy are superior to traditional Christianity and within a few decades science will sweep away old Christian traditions - there will be simply too much evidence to ignore.

    Recently, two Book of Mormon settlements were found. And those Egyptoligsts who claimed that no Egyptian papyri have been found connecting Abraham with a Lion coach scene? Recently found too.

    For me, as much as I would love to stay around and debate, other priorities are calling.

    I wish you well in your search for truth.

  • Thu Apr 02, 2009 12:48 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    james;
    We are to test all claims to the Bible for truth.

    I tested the Mormon claim for polytheism and find the faith to be false as this is what it teaches.

    I tested not for polygamy, but the approval for adultery, wife borrowing and the arbitrariness of the Mormon diety. I find the adultery and wife borrowing to be contrary to the Bible and therefore the faith to be false.

    I tested for the arbitrariness of the diety's directives. Jesus set marriage as one man and one woman in the NT. The Mormon diety says plurality is wrong in the BOM, Jacob 2 then in D&C 132 turns around and commands polygamy and then in 1896 revokes his command just in time to satisfy Congress' request to stop polygamy for entry of Utah as a state. Your diety threatens Joseph with his life if he doesn't indulge the practice. This is contrary to the Bible and I find the Mormon faith to be false.

    In addition, Joseph Smith was playing the field from 1831 until his newly published edict for polygamy in 1843. Emma was about to leave him but the new edict threatened her life if she did leave, contrary to the teachings of divorce in the NT. Another example where the Mormon faith is false as this edict violates scripture.
    The NT also teaches that a leader of the church is to be a faithful husband of one wife; another failure of the anti Biblical teachings of Mormonism.

    You may not care for MRM; I find their articles truthful and informative. Can you be specific where they falsify their articles? They are not anti-Mormon, they have an open ministry to Mormons to help them see their errors in a compassionate manner.

    The whole premise for the Lost Book of Abraham appears a complete fabrication as attested by Egytology scholars. This places Joseph Smith's veracity and the foundation of the LDS faith is a less than honorable position and a faith system that is built on falsehoods.

    Joseph Smith is a dishonest character and not of God but a son of the father of lies. http://christianpost.com/Education/General/2009/03/pastor-tackles-truth-new-age-spirituality-mormonism-23/comment.html

    The Biblical Jesus, not Joseph Smith and his teachings, is the truth, the life and the way.

  • Thu Apr 02, 2009 12:47 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

    James' comment did not post correctly. Here's what he really meant to say:

    "The point is Mat, you're going to continue to lose when you argue against an irrational being."

    You are correct, of course, James. Good night.

  • Thu Apr 02, 2009 12:30 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Mat:

    You wrote:
    "Yeah, James, I saw it after I posted it. I can't keep all your false books straight."

    No, you just don't have the intellectual strength to admit that you just made a mistake. You continue to make knee-jerk reactions to scientific truths that refute traditional Christianity interpretation of the Bible and existence.

  • Thu Apr 02, 2009 12:27 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Prop's last comment got cut off at the end... I finished it for him to accurately represent reality.

    "All the truth to substantiate my comment has been posted and found to be accurate..IN MY MIND ONLY."

  • Thu Apr 02, 2009 12:26 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Mat:

    The term destroy never did and doesn't now mean that the elements cease to exist. It refers to the destruction of the formed structure of plants, animals, humans, rocks, etc.

    But we don't need an end of the world cataclysm to witness this power in action - we can see what destruction an active volcano does with its molten lava.

    The point is Mat, you're going to continue to lose when you argue against existence.

  • Thu Apr 02, 2009 12:22 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    All the truth to substantiate my comment has been posted and found to be accurate.

  • Thu Apr 02, 2009 12:19 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Yeah, James, I saw it after I posted it. I can't keep all your false books straight.

    You said to check the Greek. I am more than happy to go there.

    Obviously you don't know Greek if you are using an interlinear. The Greek word in question is "luo" = "to break, destroy, dissolve, loose, melt." So the NAS is not wrong for using "destroy" because that is within its range of meaning.

    For example, even your precious KJV translates "luo" as "destroy" in John 2:19 - "Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy (luo) this temple, and in three days I will raise it up."

    So "destroy" must be an acceptable translation of "luo". Unless, of course, you must translate it "melt" in 2 Peter so it won't contradict your pseudo-theology.

  • Thu Apr 02, 2009 12:04 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Prop:

    You wrote:
    Mormonism is a false doctrine created by a false prophet who stole theories from other scientists and claimed them to be "given to him by God."

    Oh this otta be good.

    Prop identify the explicit theory by name and the list the particular scientist from which Joseph Smith happened to steal a theory, that was later proven correct.

    And please add to that, how did Joseph Smith pick all the right theories that just happened to be proven later?

    Mormonism affirms the true Godhead found in the Bible - namely, the Father, Son and the Holy Ghost, three separate beings, unified in one will, who Stephen both felt and saw when he declared:

    Acts 7:55-56
    "55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,
    56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God."

    Mormonism affirms that the supreme work of Jesus Christ is to lift all humanity, to his throne to be a joint heir with him,to the Father, if such will follow and hearken to his word and commandments:

    Rev. 3: 21
    21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

    Traditional Christianity changed the Godhead (New Testament definition) into the Catholic Trinity (non-Biblical word and definition) and turned from the greatest gift of God, namely of sitting with Jesus in his throne. Traditional Christianity has no knowledge of or power to teach men or women how to obtain this greatest gift.

    Mormonism is reestablished New Testament Christianity - and what did those New Testament followers of Christ call themselves? Saints.

    The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints offers the truth about the Bible and about existence.

  • Wed Apr 01, 2009 11:31 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Mormonism is a false doctrine created by a false prophet who stole theories from other scientists and claimed them to be "given to him by God."
    The god of Mormonism (a.k.a. the god of this world, Satan, the devil, the prince of the air) did give him that lie. And he will be thrown into the lake of fire, and all his followers too, by the true, eternal, omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent God (a.k.a. Jehovah, Y'weh, Yeshua, Jesus, Adonai).

  • Wed Apr 01, 2009 9:31 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Mat:

    By the way, D&C refers to Doctrine and Covenants, not the Book of Mormon. And yes, I am still saying that the Bible and the Doctrine and Covenants do not contradict one another.

    In fact, the information below will show you that your translation, the New American Standard Bible is incorrect. Interestingly enough, the NAS was created in 1963 by an Evangelical Christian group, the Lockman Foundation.

    As we'll see, if a doctrine is not in the King James Version, Evangelical Christians will find a way to make a "NEW" translation of the Bible more compatible with their traditional Christian doctrines. Christians complain because the LDS Church has the Book of Mormon, but nonetheless, Christians continue to "add" to the Bible.

    How about we check the Greek?

    Will come but day of lord as thief, in which the heavens with hissing noise will go beside, elements but being intensely hot will be loosed, and earth and the in it works will be found. (2 peter 3:10 Greek interlinear translation).

    King James Bible
    But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

    American King James Version
    But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

    The Greek, and the King James Version are exactly in line with what we now know about the true nature of elements and how they react to pressure and heat.

    They can be "loosed" and reduced to their basic energy structures. Yet, they are ETERNAL, neither created or destroyed.

    Once again, Mormonism and Mormonism's version of the Bible is on the right side of existence (and the Greek).

    Thanks for "trying" Mat but you're always going to come up short when you argue against existence.

  • Wed Apr 01, 2009 7:00 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    "The elements are eternal" (D&C 93:33).

    "But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and THE ELEMENTS WILL BE DESTROYED WITH INTENSE HEAT, and the earth and its works will be burned up. (2 Peter 3:10, NAS)

    Still saying there's no contradictions between the Bible and the BOM, James?

  • Wed Apr 01, 2009 6:59 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    I've enjoyed conversing with you. I have found it rather amusing, but I've got a million things to do. So I am taking off.

  • Wed Apr 01, 2009 6:45 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Well, since you refuse to answer my comment on the fact that according to Mormonism, Mormonism is a lie since God is still resting, and the Word of God explicitly says the evening and the morning were the second day, I won't push the subject.

  • Wed Apr 01, 2009 6:40 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Future beliefs that will be completely discarded:

    Craetion ex nihilo
    The Orthodox Trinity
    Mormonism

  • Wed Apr 01, 2009 6:31 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Prop:

    Former Christian beliefs that have been discarded:

    * The earth is the center of the universe and creation.
    * the sun is the center of the universe and creation.

    Future beliefs that will be completely discarded:

    Craetion ex nihilo
    The Orthodox Trinity

  • Wed Apr 01, 2009 6:27 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Prop:

    In the 1630s the Great Christian Church cited these scriptures saying that Galileo was teaching heresy for revealing that the earth was NOT the center of the universe.

    Ps. 93: 1 The Lord reigneth, he is clothed with majesty; the Lord is clothed with strength, wherewith he hath girded himself: the world also is stablished, that it cannot be moved.

    Ps. 96: 10 Say among the heathen that the Lord reigneth: the world also shall be established that it shall not be moved: he shall judge the people righteously.

    Ps. 104: 5 Who laid the foundations of the earth, that it should not be removed for ever.
    Eccl. 1: 5 The sun also ariseth, and the sun goeth down, and hasteth to his place where he arose.

    1 Chr. 16: 30 Fear before him, all the earth: the world also shall be stable, that it be not moved.

    It wasn't until 1825 that the Church stopped banning Galileos books!

    Today the Christian Church continues to hold to Creatio ex nihlo and a young earth when science has once again disprove their doctrines.

    Joseph Smith is the religious Galileo. You are the old Christian Church trying to tell us that the earth is the center of the universe.

    And...we know how that one worked out for the Christian Church.

  • Wed Apr 01, 2009 6:25 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    And we need to cut out the words "and on the seventh day God rested"

    Your Bible must be full of holes. All the scriptures you removed about creationism and the trinity in order to make room for the BOM, which you esteem above the Word of God.
    If you going to claim that the Word of God is wrong, then at least have the maturity to admit that Mormonism is not a Christian belief. But I guess satan doesn't want that to happen. He wants his little pet project to mangle the Truth into something that looks nothing like the way God intended it.

  • Wed Apr 01, 2009 6:20 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    "The Genesis account is not literal. You continuing to assert it like the Christian Church continued to assert that the earth is the center of the universe."

    Okay. I need to get my scissors and cut out the words "and the evening and the morning were the first day". We don't want those words getting in the way of an obvious lie, do we?

  • Wed Apr 01, 2009 6:18 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    "You have presented no evidence that Joseph Smith has lied about principles of theology that have been confirmed by scientific facts."

    Actually, yes I do. If he had come up with the idea, and then some time later it was thought of by the scientific field, I would agree with you. But what we have here is a man who came across a scientific theory and said something to the effect of "Hey, this would be a great way to explain something I can't." Regardless of whether it meshes with the Word of God or not.

  • Wed Apr 01, 2009 6:16 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    "Emotionally reacting to these facts is not going to improve your claims."

    Falsely claiming that I am will not improve yours either. I know you're bent on making me "crack" but it just aint happenin'

  • Wed Apr 01, 2009 6:12 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Prop:

    Emotionally reacting to these facts is not going to improve your claims.

    You have presented no evidence that Joseph Smith has lied about principles of theology that have been confirmed by scientific facts.

    The Genesis account is not literal. You continuing to assert it like the Christian Church continued to assert that the earth is the center of the universe.

    Have you not studied the history of Christianity and its major blunders in the recognition of cosmological realties in the past?

    Aristotle ( 384 BC to 322 BC) asserted a geocentric view of all existence; the Earth became the center of the universe and ALL heavenly bodies revolve around it. This was the gospel truth for most of the world through New Testament times, through the emergence of the Universal Christian Church, through the time of the famous Church councils and creeds, and through the Reformation. Catholics and Protestants asserted the same views: the Earth is the center of motion of the universe. This remained Church doctrine for most Christians until Galileo Galilei in 1610.

    Today, Galileo is considered the father of modern observational astronomy, the father of modern physics, the father of science, and the father of modern science. Through the influence of Copernicus and his telescope, he asserted that the Earth was NOT the center of the universe, but that it was the Earth that revolved around the Sun. (Heliocentrism)

    These discoveries directly contradicted Christian Church doctrine. The Church cited Psalm 93:1, 96:10, 104:5, Ecclesiastes 1:5, and 1 Chronicles 16:30 as direct scriptural evidence that Galileo was guilty of blasphemy. The Christian Church forced Galileo to recant his discovery that the Earth revolved around the sun on penalty of death. To save his life, Galileo recanted.

    Later it was confirmed that Galileo was right and the Church was wrong about Earth and Heavenly bodies. Today you can thank Galileo and other scientists for the knowledge and the truth about the Earth and the Sun; not because the Christian Church interpreted the Bible correctly, but because those scientists persisted in establishing the truth.

    Now jump ahead almost 400 years. What are the confirmed scientific realities that contradict Christian Church doctrine today?

    * The Laws of Conservation of Matter and Energy directly disprove and refute Creation ex nihilo

  • Wed Apr 01, 2009 6:09 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    And let's do some more research. You like theologians. Many non-LDS theologians adhere to the six literal day creation. So then LDS is wrong.

  • Wed Apr 01, 2009 6:06 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    "Are you finally doing some research appealing to history instead of your interpretations based on your narrow view of existence?"

    Yes, I am doing research to prove that God didn't give Joseph the inside scoop on evolution. Which makes Smith a liar.

  • Wed Apr 01, 2009 6:03 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    "But you've missed the mark again."

    I know. Anything that disagrees with the lies of Mormonism is "missing the mark." And that's one mark I'm glad to miss. But I have hit the mark of Truth though.

  • Wed Apr 01, 2009 6:02 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Prop (1)

    You wrote:
    "Did Joseph explain whether these "days" were thousands of years? Or millions? I assume by your posts the he, and you, believe that these "days" were billions of years, since that's what is the supposed evidence. Am I correct?"

    1. Joseph Smith explained in the 1830s and 1840s that the process of creation took a very long time. The scriptural basis for this is the Doctrine and Covenants, the Book of Abraham and the Book of Moses. While not specifically revealed, Joseph Smith reasoned that the earth was older than 3 billion years old, using his revelations as a point of reference. Why is this significant? The astronomy of his day was that the Sun was only capable of maintaining power for only a few hundred thousand years. Therefore, Joseph Smith's revelation and explanation were contrary to the known scientific principles of astronomy of his day. This changed in 1853, nearly ten years after Joseph Smith's death, when Helmholtz's postulate changed that number from thousands to millions of years. That the Sun can sustain power for billions of years is now scientific fact.

    Joseph Smith revealed in 1840 that the creation of the Earth was in the context of an ongoing process belonging to God the Father's creation of innumerable earths, with separate stars, and heavens (galaxies), through the power of his Son, Jesus Christ. He revealed about God's ongoing work: "And as one earth shall pass away, and the heavens thereof even so shall another come; and there is no end to my works."

    2. This revelation in 1840 of the former and current creation of stars and galaxies coming into existence represents verifiable astronomy today. It wasn't until 1922 when conclusive proof of separate galaxies (heavens) was discovered.

    3. It is significant that the teachings of the restored gospel on the eternal nature of physical matter, along with a parallel in the spiritual realm, embody these conservation principles. These are key statements:

    "The elements are eternal" (D&C 93:33).

    The Laws of Conservation of Matter and Energy proved this principle in 1906.

  • Wed Apr 01, 2009 6:01 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    James still hasn't addressed with credibility how if the days were actually millions of years, how Christianity and Mormonism can be in existence since God is still resting. God rested after He created Adam and Eve, so it's only been like 6000 years.

    And he still hasn't addressed how the Bible explicitly says "And the evenining and the morning were the first day, second day, third day, etc" The leaves no doubt as to the time frame of creation.

  • Wed Apr 01, 2009 6:01 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Prop: (2)

    4. Addressing the issue of creation ex nihilo, Joseph Smith asserted in one of his final sermons:

    "Now, the word create does not mean to create out of nothing; it means to organize; the same as a man would organize materials and build a ship. Hence, we infer that God had materials to organize the world out of chaos-chaotic matter, which is element. Element had an existence from the time [God] had. The pure principles of element are principles which can never be destroyed; they may be organized and reorganized, but not destroyed. They had no beginning and can have no end." (HC 6:308-309).

    5. All of the principles above have their basis in reality and in modern scientific principles.

    6. What does Evangelical Christianity have to say?

    "We believe that God created everything out of nothingness even though the Bible doesn't say so, and although modern Bible scholars don't say so, and although modern science has proven otherwise. But, we's gots ta save the creatio ex nihilo doctrine and Catholic Trinity (that was invented by a Gnostic Christian) at all costs, even at the expense of reality!" (Smile)

  • Wed Apr 01, 2009 5:59 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Prop:

    Are you finally doing some research appealing to history instead of your interpretations based on your narrow view of existence? Wonderful!

    But you've missed the mark again.

    Neither Kant, Darwin, or Lamark hypothesized that the earth is 1) billions of years old or that 2) matter and energy can neither be created or destroyed, or 3) that this earth is just one of the many creations of a long process of earth-creations, that has lasted for an eternity in the past - and locally for billions of years.

    The issue isn't "hypothesis", prop, the issue is being CORRECT.

    So, no Prop, Joseph Smith didn't pull something out of thin air, randomly choosing scientific hypotheses of the day.

    He revealed an complex and elaborate Theology that is consistent with the Bible and revealed science, which now enjoys scientific support.

    Compare that with the blunders of Christianity - Joseph Smith wins hands down.

  • Wed Apr 01, 2009 5:53 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    james, twist our words as you wish, but that won't change God's mind or God's Word one iota! Perhaps one day when you allow God to be God and not the mormon version of God you might truly see Him for who He really is and hopefully get saved!

  • Wed Apr 01, 2009 5:50 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    And so Mormonism is a lie because God is still resting.

  • Wed Apr 01, 2009 5:44 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Prop:
    "Now you're talking semantics. I view the earth as being created (in other words...in it's current state) when Adam and Eve came on the scene."

    This is why you make several errors in judgment and identity. You are relying on your personal consciousness without any knowledge of existence or proper identification of principles in reality.


    This is very simple.

    Either 1) Genesis 1 is not a literal description of the creation or 2) it is a literal description of the creation.

    Science has confirmed that the earth did not "come into existence" 6000 years and 6 days ago.

    Christian interpretation is false. Would this be the first time Christianity got it wrong? Nope.

  • Wed Apr 01, 2009 5:27 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    And don't forget Thomas Malthus' Essay on the Principle of Population (1798) which was the catalyst for Darwin, and probably Smith as well.

  • Wed Apr 01, 2009 5:24 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Please make sure of where Joseph bases his claims. His claim of planets and life that evolved over time as being from God, and claiming that science confirms that is a farce. He simply read up on other scientists with the same view.

  • Wed Apr 01, 2009 5:21 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    "Prop, we can all see that this excuses are just coming off the top of your head. You haven't investigated anything and you have no in-depth knowledge of history."

    Permit me to laugh at your ignorance. While the Greeks did not specifically refer to their concepts as "evolution", they did have a philosophical notion of descent with modification. Several different Greek philosophers subscribed to a concept of origination, arguing that all things originated from water or air. Another common concept was the idea that all things descended from one central, guiding principle. Aristotle suggests a transition between the living and the nonliving, and theorizes that in all things there is a constant desire to move from the lower to the higher, finally becoming the divine.
    The German philosopher Immanuel Kant (1724-1804) developed a concept of descent that is relatively close to modern thinking; he did in a way anticipate Darwinian thinking. Based on similarities between organisms, Kant speculated that they may have come from a single ancestral source. In a thoroughly modern speculation, he mused that "an orang-outang or a chimpanzee may develop the organs which serve for walking, grasping objects, and speaking-in short, that lie may evolve the structure of man, with an organ for the use of reason, which shall gradually develop itself by social culture"

    Charles Darwin's grandfather Erasmus Darwin (1731-1802) was also a distinguished naturalist with his own intriguing ideas about evolution. While he never thought of natural selection, he did argue that all life could a have a single common ancestor, though he struggled with the concepts of a mechanism for this descent. He also discussed the effects of competition and sexual selection (see Other Types of Selection) on possible changes in species. Like Lamarck, Erasmus Darwin subscribed to a theory stating that the use or disuse of parts could in itself make them grow or shrink, and that unconscious striving by the organism was responsible for adaptation.

    Jean-Baptiste Lamarck's (1744-1829) theory of evolution was a good try for his time, but has now been discredited by experimental evidence and the much more plausible mechanism of modification proposed by Darwin. Lamarck saw species as not being fixed and immutable, but rather in a constantly changing state. He presented a multitude of different theories that he believed combined to explain descent with modification of these changing species.

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