Updated 04:40 pm.EST, Sat November 21, 2009

Church|Mon, Mar. 30 2009 10:16 AM EDT

Saddleback Church Trains 2,400 New Members; Baptizes 800

By Jennifer Riley|Christian Post Reporter

Saddleback Church in southern California trained nearly 2,400 new church members on Saturday. It was the largest membership class in the megachurch’s 30-year history.

Of those who participated in the church’s introductory membership session, Class 101, about 800 were baptized afterwards. Founding pastor Rick Warren personally taught the program and then, with the help of other Saddleback pastors, spent more than three and a half hours baptizing the hundreds of new members.

Attendees were walked through three areas in their faith life: God’s plan and purpose for everything; the history, faith and future vision of the church; and the importance of membership.

During the session, Warren recognized that the class was taking place in the midst of economic hardships, but he said the church was created for these difficult times.

“When bad things happen in life, don’t ask why, ask how, and then discover what God wants to teach you,” Warren said, according to A. Larry Ross Communications, Saddleback’s public relations company. “The way God is going to teach you the good qualities in life is to put you in the exact opposite situation. How will God teach you joy? By putting you in the middle of sorrow. How will God teach you love? By putting you around difficult people. How will God teach you peace? By putting you in the middle of chaos. God never wastes a hurt. He can bring good out of anything.”

Warren emphasized the importance of the five purposes for the church as well as individuals – knowing, relating, sharing, growing and serving. These purposes were discussed in depth in Warren’s best-selling book, The Purpose Driven Life.

“The Bible says the church is the support and foundation of the truth,” Warren said. “We in California know the importance of support and foundation, because we have earthquakes. If you don’t have a good support and a good foundation when an earthquake comes around, your house will collapse.

“The same is true of every area of life. If you don’t have the correct foundation and support for finances, relationships and your marriage, it will all collapse. God never meant for you to go through life alone; you need relationship, you need a spiritual family.”

Everyone needs to find a church home and be connected and fulfill the five purposes, the well-known pastor said.

“A Christian without a church home is an orphan,” he said. “We aren’t in competition with any church. We want every church to grow.”

Those who have completed Class 101 will be encouraged to take three additional training classes: Class 201 that focuses on growing in Christ, Class 301 that helps individuals discover their purpose, and Class 401 that centers on discovering mission in life.

Recently, these classes were updated and revised to incorporate Warren’s PEACE Plan, an initiative to mobilize Christians around the world to Promote reconciliation, Equip servant leaders, Assist the poor, Care for the sick and Educate the next generation.

Warren will teach these advance courses in May, June and July, respectively.

Over three decades, more than 35,000 people have participated in Saddleback Church’s Class 101. The Orange County-based church is one of the five largest churches in America and draws an average weekly attendance of 22,000.

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  • Fri Apr 03, 2009 12:48 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 0

    forsaltnlight said:

    What reason would He have to give me more knowledge or to any Christan that is not going to used for His purpose...
    .......................................................
    amen, I agree, I think alot of people use Christianity to gain something for themselves, and they don't really understand the true relationship with God, they never really get that real foundation of faith, so when things start to go wrong for them, they look for a way to prove he doesn't exist. It's really sad. I will pray for you friend.

  • Fri Apr 03, 2009 11:09 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    "the whole thing crumbled."

    Dude (or dudette)...marriages end because people allow them to crumble. That doesn't make an ex-spouse a figment of your imagination (trust me on this one). My dad still does pre-marital counseling (at 84 years old) so he does have some experience in things like this. One of the main sources of divorce is that one (or both) parties were not prepared for marriage. "Leave and cleave" is a big part of that. People don't cleave to each other.

    I've heard it said that when a couple gets married there are 6 people getting married: the person you think you are, the person they think you are, the person you actually are, the person you think they are, the person they think they are and the person they actually are. The problem is that it doesn't take long for that group to get whittled down to just who you are and who they are. The same is true in our relationship with Jesus. We have some idea of who He is and who we should be. The problem is that many times neither is based on true Biblical expectation and understanding.

    A relationship with Jesus isn't based on "all the explanations and acrobatics of evangelical nomenclature to tie together otherwise disparate words and ideas". It is based on loving the Lord with all your heart, all your soul and all your mind; and loving your neighbor as yourself.

  • Fri Apr 03, 2009 10:58 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    "thermoluminescence and EPR testing have independently concluded to be tens of thousands of years old. It doesn't stand up to your personal logic test so it must be a fable. "

    When I was growing up it was Carbon 14 testing that was "irrefutable". Test all you want...I'll wait for the movie.

  • Fri Apr 03, 2009 10:56 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    "Christian abortion clinic bombers then? "

    The only thing Jesus blew up on this planet was peoples arrogance....

  • Thu Apr 02, 2009 2:23 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    Chris,

    "I will pray for Saddleback Church that they don't give these new members the "Gospel Light" edition like many of the Mega Churches do to be "Seeker Friendly".


    Amen. "Seeker friendly" is the scrourge of Christianity.

  • Wed Apr 01, 2009 6:07 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    Delight - You are an expert at drawing erroneous conclusions. I thought we were done too, but I won't sit quietly as I am called a bigot. My point was, that with any religion (and cited two examples, first one related to Islam and then a second related to Christianity) if we let are fundamentalist beliefs overtake our sense of reason, we are all (I include myself in this) capable of commiting atrocities that in other circumstances we would never consider.

    I said this earlier but I will say it again, I don't hate Christians in the least. My entire family is devout Christian and I would throw myself in front of the bus for any of them. And I don't 'hate' God. I just am unable to believe in His existence, at least not the God of Abraham of the Bible because of some of the inconsistencies that I talked about here.

    Americans, and particularly those with very fundamentalist beliefs, are more and more incapable of having a discussion where anyone has a point a view that differs. They (you, in this case) label (bigot), demonize (God-hater) and dismiss. That's a whole lot easier than actually hashing through things that of interest to all of us, right? Namely, origin and meaning of life and afterlife.

  • Wed Apr 01, 2009 4:55 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    I will pray for Saddleback Church that they don't give these new members the "Gospel Light" edition like many of the Mega Churches do to be "Seeker Friendly".

    Evangelicals and Catholics alike are bringing in many new adherants which is wonderful!

    We Catholics will be bringing in to the Catholic Church in the US almost 120,000 converts from other Christian denominations 20,000 from non-believers and we are bringing back approximately 280,000 lapse or fallen away Catholics. This is almost a half a million people and this is not including infant baptisms which could be around 1,140,000 estimated for 2009.

    I love it, our church is growing by leaps! Bearing much fruit is what calls us to do! Soon with God's grace, we will receive over 400,000 Traditional Anglicans into full communion with our Church. They will probably be the "Anglican Rite" within the Catholic Church. Praise be to God!

    Jesus is so awesome!

  • Wed Apr 01, 2009 3:32 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    And, too, your use of this anaology is an example of bigotry.

    I thought we were done; I get it; you hate God, trust in man and dislike Christians.

  • Wed Apr 01, 2009 2:58 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Delight - The suicide bomber bit was an example of what happens when we allow ourselves to believe in a dogma that leads us to do things that otherwise, in our right minds, we would never think of doing.

    Ok. No Christian suicide bombers. Fine. Christian abortion clinic bombers then?

  • Wed Apr 01, 2009 2:57 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    rachel707 - With all due respect, what do YOU know about MY acceptance of Jesus? And what is wrong with wanting to study about the faith that I believed very much in?

    You say that if I had spent less time in theology and more with the Holy Spirit I would have found the truth. What does that mean exactly? The study of theology let me to inconsistencies I could no longer ignore. Would the Holy Spirit have helped me to better overlook them?

  • Tue Mar 31, 2009 9:31 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Chas,
    Just a side note the word 'angel' means messenger; so "Messenger of the Lord" would be appropriate. I hope my earlier post and this one clears up any misgivings you have about my theology. But thank you for your concern, we should always examine what we believe to be true.


    Bass,
    you just had to get that last dig in:
    "I think suicide bombers have effectively shown us that".
    How many Christian suicide bombers have you heard of?

  • Tue Mar 31, 2009 9:24 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Cajb11
    The system here is funky. If you're cutting and pasting, you must remove all puncuation before trying to post a comment. I use notepad for this and change out the puncuation. It's a hassle but you get used to it.

  • Tue Mar 31, 2009 8:10 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    (Not sure what happened with last post....cut my Post 1 of 2 in half. So is this now 2 of 3? LOL)



    ......has anything to do with â

  • Tue Mar 31, 2009 8:07 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    POST 1 of 2

    Thank you for your post and pov Delight. Initially I was answering the very first question in the thread about baptism, an important and fundamental question no matter what church is being discussed.

    Let me address some of the things in your last post to me:

    1. As a member of Saddleback for 23 years I can say unequivocally that sin is not soft-pedaled and EVERY sermon that has anything to do with â

  • Tue Mar 31, 2009 5:47 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    Cajb11,

    The question here is not about the method of baptism but rather the content of the gospel Saddleback teaches. Also of concern is the seeker friendly approach to the gospel that soft peddles the destructiveness of sin and promotes human potential.

    With the rise of false teachings in the church today, the warnings in Scripture about many turning away from the faith in the last days, it is a healthy skepticism to question the enormous numbers Saddleback is claiming.

    I haven't studied out what Rick Warren teaches but I have heard him speak a few times and have read the Purpose Driven Life and there is just something that is off target on his take of the Gospel that doesn't appear biblical. The focus seems to be man-centered and not Christ centered; the Purpose Driven Life over the Spirit Filled Life.

    I put him on a par with Robert Schuller and Norman Vincent Peale.

  • Tue Mar 31, 2009 5:28 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Noticed on my last post I did not clearly say bit it was implied that if someone's previous baptism was not by immersion we asked that the be baptized again by immersion. I didn't want anyone to get the impression they were just out of luck as far as being a member or in a leadership role.

  • Tue Mar 31, 2009 5:27 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Chas,

    "Gen 16:10 Then the Angel of the LORD said to her, "I will multiply your descendants exceedingly, so that they shall not be counted for multitude."

    Not God the Father will multiply you but "I". Same promise God the Father gave to Abraham.

    Jdg 2:1 Then the Angel of the LORD came up from Gilgal to Bochim, and said:

    "I led you up from Egypt and brought you to the land of which I swore to your fathers; and I said, 'I will never break My covenant with you." "I" again.

    Jesus is the referred to as the Angel of the Lord in the OT and IS God and not a created being. He had yet to take on flesh as He is both God and Flesh today:

    Jhn 20:27 Then He said to Thomas, "Reach your finger here, and look at My hands; and reach your hand here, and put it into My side. Do not be unbelieving, but believing."

  • Tue Mar 31, 2009 5:23 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    If I may comment as a former staff member who worked on the "Membership Team" at Saddleback. (Then this team also headed the massive small group program, MOP's, Men's Ministries, etc. It's not an "expensive marketing program". Rather, it does take work to oversee 3,000 plus small groups, various ministries, and they take the church membership question VERY serious.

    Saddleback, being a Southern Baptist church, does not believe in baptismal regeneration (being saved by baptism) but rather believe it is an outward symbol of our acceptance of Christ as our Savior. Not salvific at all. It is making whole the two parts of "making believers" AND "baptizing them in Jesus name". They are separate but commanded.

    All members of Saddleback have to be baptized by immersion in a Bible believing church. They will list the church in which that baptism was made and it checked, not that we don't believe them but that we understand it is a church that agrees with the church's stand on baptism. If anyone has not been baptized by immersion, be they sprinkled as an adult or a baby, they are politely explained what Saddleback believes and why. The goal is not to offend but to hold to the convictions of the church. The vast majority completely understand. Any person who wants to lead a small group, be a volunteer teacher, or a leader of any kind must be a member of the church. It is a way also to guard against a misunderstanding of what the church believes and avoid confusion with any abberent doctrine. Of course all, member or not are welcome to attend anything.

    Saddleback does teach the gospel in the membership class, Class 101. In fact, typically 10% of those attending come with the intent of being a member, and when the gospel is presented they realized they have not made that commitment of faith and do so in the class.

    I think someone ask about missions and evangelizing. That is taught in Class 401 and has it's own very large missions team. It is a four-hour class as well. The PEACE program is not only a "social" cause as some seem to think. It is also to share the gospel. I have heard it said over and over and over.....well, you get the point. And it is taught at Saddleback. But also as is taught in the Bible, we are to take care of the widows and the orphans. That in itself is a fulfillment of the word of God. But it is done with the premise of evangelizing those whom you serve. Who could in good conscience look into the face of a child orphaned by parents dead of AIDS, share the gospel only, and then move on?

    Unfortunately any time you are high profile you will take the arrows. Goes with the territory. Sad so many of those arrows come from fellow believers who have really been misled by so called "discernment ministries".

    I hope I have answered some questions that were asked. :)

  • Tue Mar 31, 2009 5:22 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    You're not ignoring a philosophy...mine or anybody elses. You are ignoring facts. Turning off one's logic to hold onto dogma is dangerous. I think suicide bombers have effectively shown us that.

    Again, nice chatting with you.

  • Tue Mar 31, 2009 5:20 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Again, you are not reflecting what my point is. I am not saying that the beginning is somehow more important than the end. I used the beginning as one possible argument of how the Bible is not infallible. It is, in fact, errant as it pertaints to creation, timeline of the beginning of the world to the time of Christ. It was just an example to say that if that part is errant, why do you have any faith that your Revelation quote is not?

    Brazil was also just one example. Want more? There are 16 nations that use the Euro. Look at the correlations and disparities in exchange and inflation rates in the ten years prior to the issuance of the Euro and the the ten years since. Also look at the price parity and purchasing power over the past ten years. It is hard to find a country that lost in any meaningful way.

    Don't get me started about the Tower of Babel, which linguists successful upended a while ago.

  • Tue Mar 31, 2009 5:13 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    "no spiritual stake in disproving it"

    Why would I? What does your philosphy offer? Worm food at best! Eternal damnation at worst!

    I think we are done here, right?

  • Tue Mar 31, 2009 5:10 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Brazil does not "many" economies make. Exaggeration doesn't prove your point.

    "Foreshadowing of things to come....written in the Bible." Is what I said, not that the EURO is prophesied...but surley you know this:

    Rev 13:16-17 "He causes all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hand or on their foreheads, and that no one may buy or sell except one who has the mark or the name of the beast, or the number of his name."

    The culmination of man's history on earth will end shortly after a one world government is instituted. The foreshadowing of that is the Tower of Babel.

    So, it doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things to understand how all began...it only matters how it ends.

  • Tue Mar 31, 2009 5:09 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Fables! You have just eliquently proven my original point. In the face of inconvenient facts, you call them fables as if that somehow dismisses them.

    Never mind that neanderthal skeletons have been discovered over the past 150 years, which thermoluminescence and EPR testing have independently concluded to be tens of thousands of years old. It doesn't stand up to your personal logic test so it must be a fable.

    It's not a fable and it's not 'man's wisdom'. It's just evidence. And if that evidence didn't conflict with the dogma you need to hold onto, my guess is it wouldn't go cross-grain to your logic at all. We wouldn't be having this conversation as you would have no spiritual stake in disproving it.

    This is precisely what brought me to a point where I could no longer, in good concience, continue to believe...it required me to ignore facts that were no longer ignorable. I agree that we will probably never meet in the middle on much - particularly if your dogma requires you to ignore facts that challenge what you believe. But I did appreciate the debate. Thank you, I really enjoyed it.

  • Chas »
    Tue Mar 31, 2009 5:02 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    One of the most complete descriptions of an angel is in Daniel10:5-6:

    I looked up and there before me was a man dressed in linen, with a belt of the finest gold around his waist. His body was like chrysolite, his face like lightning, his eyes like flaming torches, his arms and legs like the gleam of burnished bronze, and his voice like the sound of a multitude.

    The angel guarding Jesusâ

  • Chas »
    Tue Mar 31, 2009 4:59 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    DelightnLord,

    Jesus is referred to by many names, all of which, describe him. No where in scripture is Jesus referred to as the Angel of the Lord. Angels are created things. Jesus was never used in OT scripture being described as an Angel.

    Be careful, Angels are Angels and Humans are humans and neither can they become each other. God is God, begotten, not made, one being with the Father, through him all things were made. The Devil was and is an Angel, a bad one. Only Raphael, Micheal and Gabriel are Angels of the Lord. Jesus only became "Incarnate" once. Angels are spirit form. Any Angel of the Lord may take on the appearance of a human male and they may even take on the image and likeness of God like us, but it is only a form not real.

    One of the most complete descriptions of an angel is in Daniel 10:5-6: â

  • Tue Mar 31, 2009 4:51 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Fables, my friend. We should be digging up much more than we have thus far. Logic dictates if this earth was populated tens of thousands of years longer than recorded History reveals, we would be seeing a lot of evidence of past civilizations and we would have a larger population over the face of the earth today than we do.

    Look, clearly you revel in being a skeptic and you can do that to your hearts content. I'll not convince you and you will not shake my faith by your earthly wisdom over God's word. But we shall see one day how everything shakes out; I'll take God's Wisdom over man's wisdom any day of the week.

  • Tue Mar 31, 2009 4:49 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Please give the reference of where the EU is prophesied. I don't know where it is.

    I am not making sweeping statements at all. If you want a great example of how a country was able to reign in rampant inflation through monetary controls, type 'Plano Real' in wikipedia and see how Brazil did just that in 1994 and since then has had no inflation whatsoever.

    And how's this for a sweeping statement: I'd take inflation over a Tyranical World Dictator (which is the next step). Next step? Why? How? Says who? The EU and its currency have been with us for a decade now. European countries are no closer to a 'tyranical world dictator' than they ever have been. What they do have is a currency that has been more more well-behaved allowing individual countries within the group of nations to better fight inflation there too.

    By the way, I have seen hyperinflation and I can guarantee you that you don't want it over anything. Imagine your paycheck losing 40-50% of it's value over the course of a month and you'll know what I mean. It's chaos.

  • Tue Mar 31, 2009 4:36 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Do you believe one world rule has to be acheived in one fell swoop OR do things happen in stages? Such as the introduction of the Euro and the distinegration of the European countries into one entitity. Foreshadowing of things to come....written in the Bible.

    "learned to better control their economies through effective monetary policy"

    I think the evidence for that statement is non existent. Who are the "many" economies benefitting in the current financial climate. You do make sweeping comments.

    How is one world currency GOOD for the world? I'd take inflation over a Tyranical World Dictator (which is the next step)...but I think we may get both.

  • Tue Mar 31, 2009 4:35 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    We should have dead bodies everywhere? A larger population? Says who?

    Dead bodies, like anything else, tend to covered up over time. That's why archeaologists go on 'digs' to find things.

    Population growth, while not exponential, has been increasing for several centuries. Many factors contribute to that, but we can see that even in our lifetime, demographics have shifted significantly as life expectencies have gone up quickly. Estimated world population just 250 years ago, for example, was just over 10% of what it is today at around 700 million.

  • Tue Mar 31, 2009 4:26 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    So, where are all the DEAD BODIES from all the time you say man roamed the earth...we should be hip deep in dead man' bones if your theory is correct.

    We should also have a larger population if your theory is correct.

  • Tue Mar 31, 2009 4:25 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Re currency fluctuations: I heard the same prophecies being cited back in the 90s when the Euro was being created. The same could have been said back in the 80s when many Latam countries dollarized, effectively giving up their own local currencies in place of the US Dollar. Many have gone back now as they have learned to better control their economies through effective monetary policy (which is the principal driver behind unifying any currencies...that and controling inflation...both good things that make all of our lives better).

  • Tue Mar 31, 2009 4:15 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    The question isn't wieldy at all. It is this: how can we hold onto something as unfallible when there is evidence to show that it is not?

    I have read the Bible and I do know about the story of Jesus descending into Hell and the interpretations of his being pointed to in both the OT and NT. My whole point is that humans have been here on earth for a timespan that dwarfs the timespan of the OT and NT put together! You either have to ignore that, which you did by saying it doesn't matter, or you have to believe that God created the world, Adam and Eve and the animal kingdom in the last fraction of the timeline of known human existence (both geneological and carbon-14 tested archeological finds will show this); either one makes the infallibility argument cave. And if infallibility is no longer possible in the case of verses about creation and the geneological lines, then how can we use certain others as infallably true? It all breaks down, because we are effectively picking and choosing which parts are to be believed and which are to be ignored.

    As to prophecy, most of the books of prophecy in Bible are written in very non-specific terms making them open to much interpretation. Much has been written about Nostradomus who wrote in a similar manner and, depending on the interpretation of his writings, one could argue that many things that he wrote about have come true. Yet, nothing of what he wrote is considered part of the canon.

  • Tue Mar 31, 2009 4:06 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    " Having faith when there is no evidence '

    There is evidence throughout creation FOR God and His goodness. Besides, "faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen" doesn't make one uneducated o feeble-minded, rather God gives a believer new sight because of faith.

    "Why are we willing to look past those inconsistencies..."

    There are no longer inconsistencies for me; I believe God is able to preserve His Word in its entirety so that men can know Him throughout the ages. There may be things I don't understand but that in itself doesn't make those things 'inconsistent'.

    What has man offered here on the earth that can be trusted?

  • Tue Mar 31, 2009 3:46 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    "would put the world at about 6000 years old when genome research has positively shown that humans have existed for tens of thousands of years prior to that? "

    I think that was a question. You can believe in the genome research over God all you'd like.
    The answers of beginnings interest me not in the least. It's the endings I find particularily interesting...do you know anything about prophesy in Scripture?
    Now, there's an area not touched by other "religious books" but the Bible takes it on and settles it.
    Guess what, it all makes sense and we are seeing Scripture fulfilled today. Several world leaders are calling for a one-world currency in the face of a declining dollar; declining because of the purposeful actions of our current and past administrations.
    That, to me is interesting...figuring out how it all started, well, I'm quite okay with God speaking it into existence or the "Big Bang"...whatever.

  • Tue Mar 31, 2009 3:38 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Bass,
    Your questions are wieldy and it is unclear what it is you are asking.

    To answer the one about all the souls who died without Christ before Christ was revealed;

    Christ descended into hell and preached the Gospel to those in Abraham's bosom during the 3 days in the grave. Besides, you say you read Scripture and you don't understand that Jesus Christ is called the Angel of the Lord in the OT? Jesus is mentioned throughout the Bible, both OT and NT.

    No one is overlooked by God.

    I would study this out for you, provide you with Scripture references but I don't have the time. If you are seeking, you will find your answers.

  • Tue Mar 31, 2009 3:10 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    You didn't address my questions, but yes, they are issues of unbelief...based on evidence. How can geneological studies that undesputedly take our species back tens of thousands of years not be evidence? And how can we continue to anchor our very existence on something we claim to be infallible when it clearly contradicts that evidence? And this is just one example. Having faith when there is no evidence is one thing. Ignoring evidence in order to hold faith together is quite another. Why are we willing to look past those inconsistencies when it comes to the faith of our fathers, but would be the first to point them out if they were in the Koran? To be fair, Muslims would do the same, no doubt.

  • Tue Mar 31, 2009 2:51 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Bass,

    You claim "evidence" against the truth of God but all you come up with are issues of unbelief.
    As far as denominations go, you can be a Christian and not be a part of a ruling denomination.

    You believe losing this life too costly for you. What you don't understand is that relationship with God and not denomination that makes giving up this life for Jesus to live through me, IS in fact TRUE freedom. I've built my house on the Rock and the storms of life will come and go. I will stand because of Christ, who is with me through the storm.

    True Christianity isn't something one can "try" or "sample". It is an all or nothing proposition. If you choose not to give all then you will get nothing.

  • Tue Mar 31, 2009 2:05 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Delight - Christianity was a big part of my life and continues to be for a great number of people I know I love, so I always am somewhat plugged into what are current issues and thoughts within the church. And as someone who takes truth seriously, I always enjoy a healthy debate as both sides, as long as they are being honest, can gain much from the exchange.

    I don't think that my comments with you have been derogatory at all. Yours, on the other hand, are starting to get a little prickly. That's ok though. Many Christians see any discussion that entertains the idea of the non-existence of God as a personal attack. Just so you know, I wasn't attacking you in any way.

    To your points: if coming out from under the cloud of the elaborate web of specific sins and all the derivatives of them that each denomination holds to (and splits over) is psychological reprieve, so be it. As to my 70 years here being all I get, I couldn't agree more. But I know you are saying it in the second person and not in the first, being convinced, guaranteed as you put it, that in your case that is different. Am I right?

    If not, my apologies for presuming to know. If so, then your belief in that is undoubtedly based on scripture. So let me ask you this: how do you feel comfortable basing your life and making judgements about the lives (and afterlives) of others based on a religious book which, if you follow the geneological lines from creation to Christ, would put the world at about 6000 years old when genome research has positively shown that humans have existed for tens of thousands of years prior to that? What is to be said about all of the 'souls' of those humans prior to revelation, which only came in the last little fraction of the time of human existance?

    I would ask about the 'good luck' bit, but I won't as you are already defensive.

  • Tue Mar 31, 2009 1:44 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    So, Bass...you've got nothing but this life and a psychological repreive of sorts.
    Good for you then, enjoy your 70 years of life here...it's all you got.

    But if so fulfilled why come against the Christian faith on a Christian website? Seems if it is not a rebellion toward God, it would be easier to just let this whole thing go and not be blogging against Christians and God on CP. You've got more issues here than you care to admit.
    Good luck.

  • Tue Mar 31, 2009 1:42 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Slacker - My point of contention would be not to let yourself be frustrated about 'a nation' doing one thing or another. A nation isn't a person; it doesn't have a mind of its own. What it does, if it is a democracy, is purely a reflection of the collective decisions of its people. The U.S. has always been a nation of immigrants and today is no different. The laws of the land should remain neutral to any one faith in order that all those immigrants and sons/daughters/grandsons/granddaughters and so on of all faiths (or none at all in my case) have the freedom to pursue their happiness. That is what guys like Jefferson envisioned and they were absolutely right on the money.

  • Tue Mar 31, 2009 1:34 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Slacker - You touch on a point that is important regardless of one's spiritual beliefs. The idea of using God, or anything else for that matter, as a talisman is something that is ugly as it points to something that is even uglier, which is an attitude of entitlement that, in the U.S., has reached stratospheric proportions. I have spent much of the past decade living overseas and when I have gone back periodically, I have been shocked by the attitude that you mention. An overinflated sense of entitlement is truly nauseating.

  • Tue Mar 31, 2009 1:27 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Delight - Thank you for your thoughts of sympathy, but there is absolutely no need to feel sorry for me or my 'plight', as you call it. I don't have a plight; I have a life, and one that now I am truly living and enjoying it its fullest. And as to guarantees, I would argue that I actually have more guaranteed now than ever. I traded an existence where a compilation of ancient writings and a politically-charged institution was telling me that I needed to lose my life (the only one I am GUARANTEED to have) to buy my plot in the next one (which is based on faith alone) for a life that is real. Here and now.

    And it wasn't an act of rebellion towards God or anything like that. It was in my continual search for truth that the Bible and the Christian faith fell apart. The search for the truth has been something that has characterized my life from the time I was a child (all those who knew me would attest to that). I went on to study theology once I had the chance because my formative years were within an environment in which seeking the truth was good so long as it was within the parameters of the infallibility of the Bible. And there is real joy in finding knowledge and truth and walking away from ignorance and ill-founded beliefs, as you know. That stands for people within a certain faith, and I can tell you that it also stands for people that have found truth outside the faith of their upbringing.

    I don't have an unwillingness to believe in anything (be it God, gravity, or the scovile units of habanero peppers), but refuse to continue believing in anything if evidence to the contrary is sufficient to undo its veracity. So, in a sense, it is I that feels for you, but not in any sort of condescending way. Just my point of view as both of us are doing our best to live our lives the best way we know now, no doubt.

  • Tue Mar 31, 2009 1:17 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Forgiven,

    They are baptised into membership of the Saddleback Church, (due no doubt to a very expensive marketing program) and not necessarily baptised into the Body of Christ.

    I would hope it would be other than that...but the teaching programs they have enrolled these converts into may make them better members of the Saddleback Purpose-Driven whatever and not a Holy Spirit filled Christian warrior.

  • Tue Mar 31, 2009 1:11 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Take that anger, Slacker and find the real culprit (Satan) and do battle by defending the Gospel and speaking up for righteousness wherever you can. We cannot expect to 'Christianize' the world as it is not in His plan that we do. The world is ripe for God's judgment and I believe we are begining to see this in the global financial collapse we are witnessing now with more to come.

    "The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance."
    2 Peter 3:9

  • Tue Mar 31, 2009 12:58 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    to Bass:

    "Jesus was the 'Prince of Peace' but didn't come to promote peace. What? And because of the verses that you cite (and cite correctly...I am not arguing what they say...they are just terribly contradictory), you would be less interested in an agenda to increase peace in the world, help the poor and care for the sick (which was probably Jesus' best life example) and more interested in proselytizing. Dogma trumping reason. Sad."

    i don't know if it is so much contradictory as much as it is taken out of context or even that we don't know the exact meaning and instead of look to God to explain it. I am struggling currently with a deep anger towards this country because of the Idea that everything is God's fault. We as a nation don't put God first in anything we do, yet we expect him to do everything we ask. Doesn't sound like a very good trade off. We want to understand what the bible means yet we don't put the time and effort to learn it. That is just my thoughts. Good Day...

    Rich

  • Tue Mar 31, 2009 12:41 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Bass,

    I'm very sorry for your plight, but let me ask you...where are you now...what do you have that is guaranteed? Death and taxes?

    "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life." John 6:68b.

    The Lord answers your questions;

    "But you do not have His word abiding in you, because whom He sent, Him you do not believe.

    "You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me."

    "But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life." John 5:37-40.

    Perhaps your dilema is one of a lack of belief and willingness to come to God on HIS terms.

  • Tue Mar 31, 2009 12:16 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Delight - I appreciate the thoughtful response. Unfortunately, it doesn't do much of anything to clear up any contradictions. I have spent the better part of my life immersed in the Bible and study of theology, and have known the 'feeling' of the so-called personal relationship with Jesus, but the second I allowed myself to commit the 'heresy' of looking skeptically at the Christian faith, the Bible and all the explanations and acrobatics of evangelical nomenclature to tie together otherwise disparate words and ideas, the whole thing crumbled. And the most common acrobatic technique that I have witnessed (and I am not critisizing you in any way) is precisely the one you used: when it cannot be explained, it isn't because it is contradictory...it is because we are too sinful to understand it. And so the clinging to dogma continues, even as it flies in the face of facts, reason, and human kindness.

  • Tue Mar 31, 2009 11:29 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Bass,
    Anytime one comes across a contradiction in the words of Scripture, it results in a learning experience for the seeker. Indeed, Jesus Christ is the Prince of Peace for those who know Him and have accepted His offer of salvation, he brings a peace that surpasses all understanding.

    However in this fallen world, the message of Christ is at odds with the spirit of the age:

    "and the peace of God, which surpasses all understanding, will guard your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus." Phillipians 4:7

    "But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, whose minds the GOD OF THIS AGE HAS BLINDED, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them." 2 Corinthians 4:3,4

    The Jews believed at the time of Jesus Christ's visitation He would usher in God's Kingdom on earth, defeat Roman rule and bring peace. His mission here: "For the Son of Man has come to save that which was lost." Mat 18:11. Not what the Jews wanted.

    And He has promised to return a second time to rule and reign on the earth:
    "When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory." Mat 25:31

    Jesus came not to bring peace to the world but to save that which was lost through the sacrifice of Himself (the Lamb of God) for sin. He will return as (the Lion of Judah) defeating the anti-christ (the spirit or god of this age) and bring peace on the earth.

    Does this make more sense to you for the contradition you see in Scripture?

  • Tue Mar 31, 2009 10:30 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Delight - Your post is an attest to how the Bible, the Koran, or take your pick of any number of other religious texts are contradictory and can be used to promote illogical ideas galore.

    Jesus was the 'Prince of Peace' but didn't come to promote peace. What? And because of the verses that you cite (and cite correctly...I am not arguing what they say...they are just terribly contradictory), you would be less interested in an agenda to increase peace in the world, help the poor and care for the sick (which was probably Jesus' best life example) and more interested in proselytizing. Dogma trumping reason. Sad.

  • Mon Mar 30, 2009 7:35 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    Interesting post, DelightntheLord! I'm also skeptical of anything Warren and his church does. Why?

    Ever since they brought into their church none other than Hillary Clinton to speak to them regarding homosexuals and HIV and 25,000 of their members stood up to give her a standing ovation . . . yeah, I'm very skeptical of anything these people do.

    You know that Hillary, aside from being a strong advocate for the homosexuals, has just been awarded the Planned Parenthood's Person of the Year Award. Sick! Sick! Sick!

    And Warren and his so-called "flock" at Saddleback endorses this agent of Satan! Despicable to say the least!

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