Updated 12:58 pm.EST, Sat November 21, 2009

Ministries|Tue, Apr. 07 2009 10:41 AM EDT

Younger Unchurched Seek Faith that Challenges, Transforms

By Lillian Kwon|Christian Post Reporter

While surveys continue to paint a hopeless picture of young adults and the future of the Christian faith, Christianity will not die out in this generation or any other, insists one researcher and author.

"We have heard them and guess you have too: 'This will be the last Christian generation,' 'Only 4 percent of this generation are Christians,' and 'The sky is falling,'" writes Ed Stetzer in Lost and Found: The Younger Unchurched and the Churches that Reach Them. "Well, there are some concerns (and big ones at that), but hype does not help."

The latest research to sound the alarm on this generation is last month's Barna Group survey which showed that less than one percent of those between the ages of 18 and 23 hold a biblical worldview (which includes believing that absolute moral truth exists, that the Bible is completely accurate in all of the principles it teaches, and that a person cannot earn their way into Heaven through good works).

Over the past three years, Stetzer – who serves as the director of LifeWay Research – has been studying and interviewing "unchurched" young adults in their twenties. The unchurched includes those who have never attended church and those who only attended as a child.

Ultimately, he found a generation that "is still excited about being spiritual but has lost its appreciation of the value of the church," he told The Christian Post. Some see the church as more of the problem than the solution to spiritual growth, he noted.

According to surveys conducted by the Center for Missional Research at the North American Misison Board and LifeWay Research, 80 percent of 20- to 29-year-olds believe God exists and 73 percent consider themselves to be spiritual and are interested in knowing more about God. At the same time, 67 percent believe the church is full of hypocrites, 77 percent think Christianity today is more about organized religion than about loving God and loving people, and 90 percent say they can have a good relationship with God without being involved in a church.

Open to Jesus and God yet wary of the church, these twenty-somethings are seeking genuine relationships and a faith that challenges and transforms.

"They want a faith that changes them and changes the world," Stetzer commented. "That's what the Gospel truly is."

"Sadly many people have identified this generation as disinterested in a deeper approach to life," Stetzer writes in the book he co-authored with Richie Stanley and Jason Hayes.

The inaccurate stereotypes have led many churches to take the wrong approach when reaching the younger generation, such as offering little biblical depth in teachings.

In Lost and Found, Stetzer notes that more twenty- and thirty-somethings are leaving churches that model after sitcoms in which a sermon is presented with a clever story, a problem is introduced and then "neatly" resolved in a 30-minute time span.

"Sitcom content makes the assumption that things can be resolved at the end of church," Stetzer writes. "Unfortunately content of that nature does nothing to embrace the mysterious nature of either God or life. Life is not a sitcom, and the real problems people experience involve deep struggle and introspection.

"Life isn't that clean and all of its challenges certainly can't be resolve in thirty minutes or less."

Turned off by neat and pat answers and hungry for depth, young adults are flocking more toward churches that are offering deeper and more meaty messages (particularly through expository teaching) and tackling tough questions even though they might not be able to give all the answers.

"We need to teach people that the Christian life is not always explainable but it is always livable," Stetzer commented.

After years of research, Stetzer still does predict that the percentage of Americans who identify as evangelical Christians will decrease but he believes that smaller group will be more sincere and serious in their faith than ever.

"As culture increasingly turns against values of the Gospel, it may be harder to be Christian and in turn, being a Christian will be a more serious commitment."

Lost and Found was published earlier this year and was written to examine who the lost are while also looking at specific churches that are effectively reaching them.

And as Stetzer assured, there are lots of churches reaching the younger unchurched.

"We're calling it Lost and Found because we want you to know that lost young adults are being found," he says.

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  • Fri Apr 24, 2009 10:11 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    There could be something in the wording of the question that produced such a low result for youth who identify themselves as Christians. Anyone who's seen the young people turn out in huge numbers all around the world for World Youth Day know this figure is wrong. More of our youth are interested in Faith and their salvation than that.

  • Fri Apr 24, 2009 9:59 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    I have to take exception to those who think we shouldn't use people in our lives as examples of goodness. There are people who are truly inspired by the Holy Spirit and lead such exemplary Christian lives that they should be models for us as we try to live as Christ taught.

    While Jesus is the Ultimate Inspiration, I think we do ourselves a disservice if we ignore the examples of holiness in our midst, if we fail to learn from those who have put God above all else, whose actions speak as loudly as their words and who have dedicated their lives to God's work in ways we could only hope to do. Could it be that God has so inspired and guided these people precisely to be examples for us? Let's not miss the forest for the trees.

  • Sat Apr 11, 2009 11:27 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 0

    >>>the only person we should be venerating is the Lord Jesus Christ alone, tho only person we should be imitating is the Lord Jesus Christ alone, the only person we should be praying to is the Lord Jesus Christ alone! <<<

    Amen believer!

  • Sat Apr 11, 2009 10:03 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    ihs, the only person we should be venerating is the Lord Jesus Christ alone, tho only person we should be imitating is the Lord Jesus Christ alone, the only person we should be praying to is the Lord Jesus Christ alone! And with that I wish all my brothers and sisters in Christ a great and blessed Resurrection Day for the Lord Jesus Christ is risen, yes risen indeed!!!

  • Sat Apr 11, 2009 3:56 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    vcook,

    Those churches are still out there. They don't get much recognition and aren't very big because they don't teach a prosperity message. I went to one of those churches for a while. The power of God moved in incredible ways in that church, and the truth was preached without reservation.

  • Sat Apr 11, 2009 3:18 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Being someone that would fall into the age range of those who were surveyed, I understand where they are coming from. I myself am tired of church as usual. I am wanting a real experience with a very real God. Casual Christianity is causing many people my age to turn to other religions. I think America needs a real move of Holy Spirit in its churches. Its sad, however true, that the church in America has no spiritural power anymore. Somewhere along the line, before my generation, that ball was dropped. I myself long for the day that Holy Spirit moves in our churches again.

  • Sat Apr 11, 2009 2:49 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    "I think we should start venerating the evangelical missionaries who work hard in foreign countries saving souls and giving them food, or average Christians who do extra ordinary things for others and barely living above poverty while they work in total self sacrifice for God."

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    America is one of the biggest mission field in the world.

  • Sat Apr 11, 2009 2:48 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    "I find it odd that my fellow Evangelicals have books by Max Lucado, Joel Osteen, Charles Spurgeon, Dr. James Dobson and so on and basically Venerate these people like they have done anything amazing. While some of these people like Max and Dr. James Dobson have done some good, they have not lived a life of self-sacrifice like Christ."

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    Self-scarifice. Like the self-glorified life of the Pope? He wouldn't know the first thing about living a life of self-sacrifice.

  • Sat Apr 11, 2009 2:27 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    msupertekk

    >>>I'm sure no one will admit to doing as this Minister did, because of fear that others will think they are commiting a sin against GOD for IDOLATRY because they ask for help in prayer to GOD from thier deceased loved one or a saint.<<<

    I most assure you that I don't and I never will.

  • Sat Apr 11, 2009 2:25 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    msupertekk

    The Word of God says in Rev 14:13 that when we go to Heaven our labour is over. Part of our labour here on the earth is to pray for one another.

    The Saints in heaven no longer labour in prayer for those on the earth. They do not hear your prayers and they do not petition Jesus or God on your behalf. They did that when they were on the earth.

    Rev 14:13 - "And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them."

    The only prayers that God hears are the prayers that are prayed in Jesus' name.

    John 14:13 - "And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son."

    John 16:23 - "And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it to you."

    >>>I heard a protestant minister on television about 6 months ago (I'll have to research to find the name but he is not the only one that I have seen do this) and he said to his audience his mother died and had gone to heaven, he said she was a great person who lead him to GOD and during some hard times that he was going through he asked her that since she was with GOD could she put in a good word for him because he was struggling. THE AUDIENCE APPLAUDS because he says the LORD HEARD HIS PRAYER <<<

    This is unscriptural. God did not hear his prayer when he prayed to his mother and asked her to put in a good word for him to the Lord because according to Rev 14:13 his mother has ceased from her labour. God the Father only hears the prayers that are prayed in His Son name from those who are here on the earth. If God did not hear his prayer he prayed to his mother then whatever answer he received did not come from God but from the evil one, who is Satan.

    The same is true for any person who prays to those they think are in eternity whether they be patron saints of the RCC, dead loved ones, or pagan gods.

  • IHS »
    Sat Apr 11, 2009 2:03 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    I would also add Billy Graham to that list of Saints who was always self-sacrificing and never lived a rich life. He has lived in the same home for 60 years and drives an average car while he could have been a multi-millionaire. Priorities my friends, priorities. A life of humility evangelizes the Gospel better than a life of power and riches. St. Francis brought many Bishops and the Pope back from living too well, when so many suffer. All the people you see on DayStar are multi-multi millionaires, not a great example. Materialism is the tool of the Devil.

    Catholics don't have Idols, they have Icons. Icons are Images in the form of statues or paintings that help you remember a person like Christ or the Blessed Virgin Mary or even a loved one. They are for veneration and remembering them alone. Idols are statues or pictures that people actually worship. Catholics do not worship Idols, but Buddhist and Hindu's do.

    You may not worship anything but the Lord your God.

    If you have a picture of anyone in your family on your wall or in your wallet, that is an icon.

  • IHS »
    Sat Apr 11, 2009 1:58 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

    I find it odd that my fellow Evangelicals have books by Max Lucado, Joel Osteen, Charles Spurgeon, Dr. James Dobson and so on and basically Venerate these people like they have done anything amazing. While some of these people like Max and Dr. James Dobson have done some good, they have not lived a life of self-sacrifice like Christ.

    I'm sorry but if you want to see someone who immitates Christ; Pope Benenedict, Pope John Paul II, Mother Theresa, Saint Dominic, Saint Thomas Aquinas, etc, etc.
    I think we should start venerating the evangelical missionaries who work hard in foreign countries saving souls and giving them food, or average Christians who do extra ordinary things for others and barely living above poverty while they work in total self sacrifice for God.

  • Fri Apr 10, 2009 10:56 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    believer,

    Yeah. What's up with all those idols that the Catholics claim they "don't have"? Idols of the saints. Idols of Mary. Worshipping statues of Mary. That is so anti-christ.

  • Fri Apr 10, 2009 10:19 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    msuper, ever heard of St. Christopher, the patron saint of safe travel. I understand he no longer is, but when he was, a number of catholics I knew had his medal or a small statue of him in their car for the purpose of giving them safe travel. That's one example of many. Plus, why wouldn't you take your problems to God when in fact He tells us to. Matthew 11:28, "Come to Me all who are weary and heavy-laden and I will give you rest."

  • Fri Apr 10, 2009 6:30 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    "Do you want me to put up some of the longest protestant prayers I've seen.. I'm not saying it is wrong because if they feel in their hearts these prayers are right then GOD knows.'

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    I've been to a few Catholic funerals. I've never heard praying that took that long. All the back and forth and jibber jabber, and well rehearsed lines and responses. Like a mantra with no meaning.

    "But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.'

    I prefer "unrehearsed, from the heart, pray it like it is" prayer.

  • Fri Apr 10, 2009 6:01 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Glory to GOD always, AMEN, pray for me as I pray for you.GOD BLESS.

  • Fri Apr 10, 2009 6:00 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    we do pray that way.

    I hear many denominations who have prayers other then the OUR FATHER, which us Catholics do use a lot.

    So according to the scripture we are praying in accordance with GOD.

    Most of my prayer is by myself and not for others to see. I have already stated how I pray and it does not go against those readings.

    Do you want me to put up some of the longest protestant prayers I've seen.. I'm not saying it is wrong because if they feel in their hearts these prayers are right then GOD knows.

    Let me know I can make a list.

    My prayers are short and not very complicated.

  • Fri Apr 10, 2009 4:58 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    msnchris.

    You must be reading the wrong newspaper. The article I quoted off of is from an actual newspaper article, not an opinion.

  • Fri Apr 10, 2009 4:47 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    One more thing, I also havn't not seen where it says that our prayers cannot be heard by all in heaven, and I don't believe asking others to pray on my behalf is wrong whether they be in heaven or on earth.

    I don't believe and nor does the church as far as I have found that whether they are your family or a saint has any relevance to it as well.

    All prayer to GOD is acceptable as long as it is genuine and from the heart. He knows your heart. So if it is not genuine and you feel it is wrong then I would agree you should refrain from it. It is genuine in my life and all my prayers are for GOD, therefore he knows whom I serve and he knows who the church serves. Idolatry does not exist with us because the only being we worship is GOD.

  • Fri Apr 10, 2009 4:41 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Believer, it just sounds like you were going to a different church to me. I believe in the value's my church teaches and the CATHOLIC church teaches, and not for a moment will I say that maybe somebody while you were catholic, may have misunderstood the churches teachings and lead you astray but I have already clearly stated how,and why we do what we do and how we do it.

    Can you please provide the church DOCTRINE that states I am to ask the saint (instead of GOD) to solve my problem. I don't know of this.

    Can you also provide the church (only if you feel comfortable doing so) that acted in the manner that you stated. Thnx.

    Would you like for me to put up the Hail Mary prayer and show how it pertitions prayers to GOD and not to Mary?

    To be quite honest with you I rarely ever ask GOD to solve a problem but I nearly always just give thnx, and pray that I understand what he is trying to tell me through whatever it is I am facing. I believe sometimes his will is hard to understand and we must give prayer to help open up our hearts and hear his message.

    When I hear what you say I am sadden because it does not reflect what I know and what I have seen at the Catholic Church.

    I am praying for you my brother and all other christians out there that we may understand each other, and always seek the truth and are not mislead by those who would decieve us, may the GLORY BE TO GOD FOREVER.

  • Fri Apr 10, 2009 4:14 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    msuper, you're talking to a former catholic who was taught there was a dead patron saint for about every issue in the world and if you had a concern in that area you're to pray to that saint and either they'll deal with it or they'll take it to God on your behalf, this is a church doctrine that has absolutely no scriptural basis, that's what were talking about, not simply praying to people who have died and hopefully went to heaven. No one is saying you can't pray to those who have gone on, but there is no specific biblical teaching that says you should or that they'll even hear your prayers in the first place. Plus, why settle for second best why not go directly to God since as a child of God we have direct access to the throne of God through the shed blood of Jesus Christ.

  • Fri Apr 10, 2009 3:07 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Believer can you tell me where in the bible is says only to ask your fellow christians who are not physically dead to pray on your behalf to GOD?

    This is not a joke question, I am asking it sincerely?Thnx.

  • Fri Apr 10, 2009 3:04 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    I know scripture well, and no where does it say you can not ask for someone who is in the kingdom of God to pray to God on your behalf. You are not asking them for anything you are asking for they're prayers to GOD. Just as you ask your fellow christians to pray to God on your behalf.

  • Fri Apr 10, 2009 2:59 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    msuper, yes, I have immediate family who are home with the Lord in heaven, but I do not pray to them since there is no scripture that teaches us to do that. The Bible does say for those of us who meet together to pray for one another but that does not include physically dead people since they are not present with us, they are in heaven. Now are they praying on our behalf possibly if not probably, but once again we are not directed to pray to those who are not physically present with us.

  • Fri Apr 10, 2009 2:46 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Thank you Lone Star for your honest answer I do appreciate your honesty and I respect the way you feel, and I do not ask you to agree with me now but I am going to explain to you why I feel the way I feel which is in accordance with the Church. I do ask that you think about what I say and pray to GOD that we both always seek the truth and do what is good and pleasing to our GOD. AMEN.

    I heard a protestant minister on television about 6 months ago (I'll have to research to find the name but he is not the only one that I have seen do this) and he said to his audience his mother died and had gone to heaven, he said she was a great person who lead him to GOD and during some hard times that he was going through he asked her that since she was with GOD could she put in a good word for him because he was struggling. THE AUDIENCE APPLAUDS because he says the LORD HEARD HIS PRAYER and ya ya ya... the rest is not important for my point however this is a good example of even the PROTESTANT church using prayer pertitions just as catholics do.

    He wasn't praying to his mom because of IDOLATRY, or because she was going to save him, he prayed genuinely to GOD and asked if his mom could hear him would she talk to GOD on his behald since he believed she was in good standing with the LORD.

    It is no different then when we catholics pray some of our prayers.

    It seems some are unable to understand what IDOLATRY really means. I will pray that you find the truth and understand that GOD knows your heart mind and soul. And he is smart enough to know who you pray to and who you believe in.

    Our prayers are heard by GOD in heaven and by heaven and the GLORY will ALWAYS BE TO GOD ONLY.

    I'm sure no one will admit to doing as this Minister did, because of fear that others will think they are commiting a sin against GOD for IDOLATRY because they ask for help in prayer to GOD from thier deceased loved one or a saint. But CATHOLICS know the TRUTH and we know who we serve, we know who we love amongst everything else in the world, and we know who we are to put first. THAT is our LORD our GOD who we will serve through eternity by his will.

  • Fri Apr 10, 2009 2:30 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    >>>There are no Idols when we only serve ONE GOD.<<<

    Yes, I agree msupertekk but if you are praying to someone other than God in the name of Jesus Christ like Mary, and other patron Saints of the RCC then you are not serving ONE God.

  • Fri Apr 10, 2009 2:27 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    >>>I have a question for you, how many of you here have had someone in your immediate family die and go to GOD?

    A simple question and if you don't mind I would like an honest answer.<<<

    My immediate family consists of my mother, father, and brother. My mother and father have both died.

    I do not know in which state they died in. My mother was raised a Catholic, became born-again in the Baptist Church but some years later turned away and became a God hater as a result of many bad experiences including being hurt by the Chruch, her adulterous husband and other reasons. Unless she repented and turned back to God before she died, she parished.

    I don't know about my Father. He was raised in the Nazarene Chruch but showed little or no interest in God until near the end of his life. His interest in Church or God may have been genuine but it may also have been nothing more than wanting to find acceptance with his son (my brother). I don't know. I also don't know in what state he died in. Was he right with God or not only God can say.

  • Fri Apr 10, 2009 2:17 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    msupertekk

    >>>Lone star so are you saying you don't believe in ETERNAL LIFE according to the scripture.<<<

    I did not say that. I am sorry that you misundestood what I wrote.

    Eternal life is not given to those who die in their sins. Some of those sins include idolatry, murder, immoral sex, lying, and stealing.

    Eternal life is given to those who keep the commandments of God. The first is to receive, from your heart, the Lord Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior. Then to walk in obedience to Him. You are not walking in obedience to Him if you are living a life of sin centered in idolatry, hatred, unforgiveness, lying, immoral sex, drunkedness, and ect.

    >>> So you are saying the Saints and the Apostles who recived eternal life through Christ and are in the Kingdom of heaven have had their spirits turned over to SATIN. Think of what you are saying. THAT IS A BIG CONTRADICTION TO SCRIPTURE. <<<

    I never said that the Saints who went to Heaven had their spirits turned over to Satan. When you pray to people who have passed on whether they went to Heaven or Hell you have made an idol of that person. Any answered prayer that you may have is not from God but from the demon that poses as that person. Again I am sorry that you misunderstood what I was trying to communicate.

  • Fri Apr 10, 2009 12:50 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Please pray for all your brothers and sisters of the Christian faith that they seek the truth and not judge but find peace in CHRIST our saviour and follow him to the fullest of their capacity so that they may be saved, AMEN.

  • Fri Apr 10, 2009 12:48 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    There are no Idols when we only serve ONE GOD.
    I believe in God the Father Almighty, Creator of Heaven and earth; I believe in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord, He was conceived by the Holy Spirit and born of the Virgin Mary.

  • Fri Apr 10, 2009 12:42 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    I have a question for you, how many of you here have had someone in your immediate family die and go to GOD?

    A simple question and if you don't mind I would like an honest answer.

  • Fri Apr 10, 2009 12:37 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    Lone star so are you saying you don't believe in ETERNAL LIFE according to the scripture.

    So you are saying the Saints and the Apostles who recived eternal life through Christ and are in the Kingdom of heaven have had their spirits turned over to SATIN. Think of what you are saying. THAT IS A BIG CONTRADICTION TO SCRIPTURE.

  • Fri Apr 10, 2009 12:27 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Since Prophet you won't do any real homework or research, here it is:

    In reference to what the document had to say about the Catholic Church's understanding of God's presence within other Christian churches and communities, it stated the following:

    â

  • Fri Apr 10, 2009 12:18 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Prophet,

    I looked up the article in the San Diego Tribune and it was an "Op Ed" piece.

    The article you posted was an opinion of the Reporter, not a statement by the Pope. I have read the entire statement by the Pope and no where does it say what you claim.

    I think if you can't admit wrong on the small things, then your credibility with larger issues is suspect. Just like Jesus talking to Nicodemus and Jesus explaining to him that if he doesn't understand earthly explanations then how can he understand if Jesus talks about the Spiritual world.

    One thing about believer, that is a positive, he doesn't throw conjecture out like it was TRUTH. Be a genuine person of integrity Prophet and admit that you misquoted a reporter's opinion for what the Pope actually said.

    Generally, if you see something coming from a SECULAR newspaper, especially in an "Op Ed" piece, that always bashes Christians you might want to read the actual resource.

  • Fri Apr 10, 2009 9:02 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    salt, it appears David's son was still an infant when he died and needless to say had not reached the age of accountability and David declares he will see him again someday which I believe affirms his child went to be with God.

  • Fri Apr 10, 2009 2:42 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    >>>Probably because God doesn't want us talking to dead people.<<<

    God wants believers to look to Him for what they need not dead people.

    Also, the spirit behind those dead people is Satan not the person themselves. You know that nothing good comes from Satan. Satan may give you what appears to you to be a good answer but it is not of God. Praying to dead people will put you in bondage to those dead people as Satan uses it to divert your attention from the true and living God to them which is really him. God is a jealous God and does not want to share you with anyone or anything else.

    If you pray to dead people that you think is in Heaven then repent for it is idolatry and the Word of God says no idolater will inherit the kingdom of God.

    It is an unwise and foolish thing to ignore God's commands and warnings. Don't fall for the lies of people who try to get you to do what God says don't do with their twisted reasoning that is full of half truths or out right lies. Satan tried that with Eve and convinced her that it was OK to disobey God and eat the forbidden fruit. Adam went along and ate also and now sin is in the world.

    Those of you who pray to dead "saints" are going against scripture. You may have answered prayer but those answers are not from God. Please, repent or you will perish.


    continued

  • Fri Apr 10, 2009 2:36 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    continued

    Ezekiel 14

    1 Then came certain of the elders of Israel unto me, and sat before me.

    2 And the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,

    3 Son of man, these men have set up their idols in their heart, and put the stumblingblock of their iniquity before their face: should I be enquired of at all by them?

    4 Therefore speak unto them, and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Every man of the house of Israel that setteth up his idols in his heart, and putteth the stumblingblock of his iniquity before his face, and cometh to the prophet; I the LORD will answer him that cometh according to the multitude of his idols;

    5 That I may take the house of Israel in their own heart, because they are all estranged from me through their idols.

    6 Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Repent, and turn yourselves from your idols; and turn away your faces from all your abominations.

    7 For every one of the house of Israel, or of the stranger that sojourneth in Israel, which separateth himself from me, and setteth up his idols in his heart, and putteth the stumblingblock of his iniquity before his face, and cometh to a prophet to enquire of him concerning me; I the LORD will answer him by myself:

    8 And I will set my face against that man, and will make him a sign and a proverb, and I will cut him off from the midst of my people; and ye shall know that I am the LORD.


    Deuteronomy 5:8-10

    8 Thou shalt not make thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the waters beneath the earth:

    9 Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me,

    10 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me and keep my commandments.

    Revelation 22: 13-15

    13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

    14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

    15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

  • Fri Apr 10, 2009 1:49 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    salt,

    Amen. And I wonder why God called it a sin to use divination and call of spirits of dead people, as in the case of Saul? Probably because God doesn't want us talking to dead people.

  • Thu Apr 09, 2009 8:29 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    msuper, not only do I believe in eternal life I have eternal life as a result of putting my complete faith/trust in the person and finished work of Christ alone. I John 5:13, "These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life."

  • Thu Apr 09, 2009 8:24 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    chris, Abraham was not in heaven but in the bosom of Abraham when the rich man made his request. Plus, the rich man was in Hades when he made the request, he was physically dead. No one said angels don't intercede on our behalf or even those who have gone on to glory, the issue here is we are instructed no where in the Bible to offer prayers to those who are no longer present with us. This once again is the extra-biblical teaching of the catholic church.

  • Thu Apr 09, 2009 6:07 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    "When we pray to the saints, the word prayer means "Petition". Pray does not mean worship."

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    Interesting. Whenever we have accused Catholics in the past of praying to saints they say they don't. The ask the dead saints to pray for them. I hope you recant your statement. There is only One to whom we pray.

  • Thu Apr 09, 2009 6:04 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    "Secular newspapers Like the San Diego Tribune and others seek to divide us Christians, and yes I do consider you a Christian despite your interpretational differences and rhetoric."

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    You're right. I mean, almost everyone in America knows that the Pope said it, but it must be lie perpetrated by The San-Diego Union-Tribune that infested the whole world. Um...yeah.

    So I suppose that only Catholic approved news sources (aka Catholic friendly news sources) are the only acceptable place to receive info about what the Pope said?

  • Thu Apr 09, 2009 5:27 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Believer,

    Not only do the Saints in Heaven present prayers to God, but so do the Angels.

    Tobit: 12:12 Angel presents Tobit and Sarah's prayer to God.
    Lk 16:19-30 the soul of the departed rich man tries to intercede for brothers, while Lazarus rests in the arms of Abraham.
    Rom: 8:35-39 Death cannot sepparate us from Christ

    Rev 5:8 Angel offers prayers of the holy ones to God

    www.catholic.com

    When we pray to the saints, the word prayer means "Petition". Pray does not mean worship.

  • Thu Apr 09, 2009 5:19 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Well Prophet, the San Diego Tribune also wrote that, "Gay Pride Movement shows the wonderful diversity of our community", and they also wrote "The Christian Cross on Mt. Soledad is dividing our city, take it down." The San Diego Tribune wrote, "War is terrorism and this war is our fault not Islam's."

    Secular newspapers Like the San Diego Tribune and others seek to divide us Christians, and yes I do consider you a Christian despite your interpretational differences and rhetoric.

  • Thu Apr 09, 2009 5:10 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    I know the letter to the Ephesians very well. Just answer the question, DO YOU BELIEVE IN ETERNAL LIFE or NOT. IT's just like saying DO YOU BELIEVE IN CHRIST OR NOT. I'm not asking the bible I am asking YOU.

  • Thu Apr 09, 2009 4:40 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    msuper, simply read Ephesians 2:8-10 and you will see God's answer to your question to me, plus no one is persecuting the Church, we are simply challenging the traditions and extra-biblical teachings of the catholic church which contradict, violate, and/or supersede the inerrant Word of God.

  • Thu Apr 09, 2009 3:39 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Believer I have no pride, I only want you and every other Christian to be saved, even though you persecute the CHURCH with your words, when you persecute the church you persecute CHRIST. I pray for you all, I do not put myself on a pedestal, that is for GOD to decide. But I do know the Catholic churches fullness and I enjoy it. I am no better the the least best Christian of any denomination, to this I admit myself. Everything is for the GLORY OF GOD and it is for him to decide.

  • Thu Apr 09, 2009 3:35 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Believer so are you saying you DON'T believe in the scripture where is says if you believe in christ and do all that is asked by him you have ETERNAL LIFE? SO do you not believe in ETERNAL LIFE?

  • Thu Apr 09, 2009 2:36 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    MSNChris,

    You complained about the article I posted as being illegitimate? So The San-Diego Union-Tribune is not a legitimate news source?

  • Thu Apr 09, 2009 2:26 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    msuper, so you and your catholic buds saying that those Christians who are not catholics are saved but, in other words calling us 2nd class Christians, is not a pride problem on your part!

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