Updated 11:59 pm.EST, Fri November 20, 2009

Education|Sun, Apr. 12 2009 06:09 PM EDT

Students Encouraged to Skip School on 'Day of Silence'

By Lawrence Jones|Christian Post Reporter

A national coalition of pro-family groups are urging parents to keep their students home this coming Friday in protest of the annual "Day of Silence," when students vow silence to bring attention to the discrimination of gay students.

Over 20 Christian-based conservative groups have called for the massive walkout from middle and high schools participating the April 17 event, arguing that the Gay, Lesbian and Straight Education Network (GLSEN)'s sponsored event politicizes the classroom to support the belief that homosexuality is moral. They include state chapters of American Family Association, Concerned Women for America, Illinois Family Institute, Liberty Council and Parents and Friends of Ex-Gays and Gays.

"This day is not about 'tolerance' as it claims, but about forcing propaganda and acceptance of high-risk behavior into the schools with no opposing views allowed," said Linda Harvey of Mission America, which also supports the walkout.

Laurie Higgins of the Illinois Family Institute said that while "all of civilized society must oppose bullying," she opposes the "illegitimate means of using public education to affirm volitional homosexual behavior."

Campaign for California Families said the demonstration will serve as financial "leverage" to get the message across, saying public schools in California lose $100 a day for each child absent.

The groups have encouraged parents and teens who are not willing to risk teacher retribution or missing school to send a letter to schools officials expressing their objections to Day of Silence.

The coalition has also called attention to a resolution sitting before Congress that would urge the federal government and public schools to officially recognize and celebrate Day of Silence. The legislation also requests that "the President issue a proclamation calling on the people of the United States to observe the National Day of Silence with appropriate ceremonies, programs, and activities."

House Concurrent Resolution 92 was introduced on April 1 and has been referred to the House Judiciary Committee.

GLSEN claims that over 8,000 students participated in last year's Day of Silence. The organization says the observance is needed, pointing to its 2007 survey showing 86 percent of LGBT students reported being verbally harassed because of their sexual orientation while 44 percent report being physically harassed.

The band of pro-family groups, meanwhile, says that by opposing the event they are in no way endorsing the bullying and harassment of those in the LGBT community.

One Christian professor, however, has come against the walkout, saying it's not very productive.

"How can we get anything accomplished if we leave the field?" Dr. Warren Throckmorton, professor of Psychology at Grove City College in Pennsylvania, wrote last week on his blog on Crosswalk.com.

The expert in mental health and sexuality issues contends that students taking part in Day of Silence have a point, saying he has spoken with Christian students who have admitted to bullying or harassing gay students.

Throckmorton has created an alternative response to Day of Silence, asking Christians to take The Golden Rule Pledge and show up at school to live out the teaching of Christ to treat others as they want to be treated.

When Day of Silence students hand out cards asking, "What will you do to help end the silence?" Christian students should respond: "This is what I am going to do. I pledge to treat others the way I want to be treated. 'Do to others as you would have them do to you.'"

Meanwhile, several other Christian-based conservative groups are promoting the Day of Truth on April 20, the following Monday, as a direct response to Day of Silence. According to Day of Truth's Web site, it was established to "counter the promotion of the homosexual agenda and express an opposing viewpoint from a Christian perspective."

Alliance Defense Fund and Exodus International, the promoters of Day of Truth, are encouraging students to speak the "truth in love" and engage in conversation about homosexuality.

Participants are also asked to hand out cards reading: "I'm speaking the Truth to break the silence. True tolerance means that people with differing - even opposing - viewpoints can freely exchange ideas and respectfully listen to each other. It's time for an honest conversation about homosexuality. There's freedom to change if you want to. Let's talk."

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  • Wed Apr 22, 2009 11:01 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Mike,
    Excuse me, but my original question was would you accept data from a stranger without the ability to confirm or verify its authenticity? I did not repeat it correctly.

  • Wed Apr 22, 2009 6:58 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    It depends from who, honestly. If it was someone I trusted or who had a valid experience with it, then yes (and I did publish data that is confirmed through a study to back up my experiences.)

  • Wed Apr 22, 2009 12:30 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Mike,
    I'm not denying it or saying it did happen. But you did not answer my question, would you accept data that could not be confirmed?

  • Tue Apr 21, 2009 2:29 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 2

    Pastor Nick,

    Thank you for your encouragement. I find it disheartening that so many people who are bound by sin and oppressions deny the fact that God can deliver them. I know that it grieves God's heart too, as He wants so much for us to be free from our bondage.

  • Tue Apr 21, 2009 6:52 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    Ender, what data would I have? I worked with MULTIPLE youth in RI who had this happen to them. You can deny my experience and think "well it probably didn't happen because he has nothing to back it up" but that is being blissfully ignorant. That kind of thinking: "Well there aren't many reports so it must not be happening" perpetuates this cycle of violence. The kids are terrified to report, so they don't get the help they need. That's what the Day of Silence is about, breaking that silence and that fear.

  • Mon Apr 20, 2009 11:02 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Mike,
    I believe that you are mistaken. You have expalined that they were not reported once, not multiple times (please feel free to check). But you ask me to accept this information without any confirmation. Would you accept data from a stranger without independent confirmation? Or the ability to confirm its authenticity?

  • Mon Apr 20, 2009 10:21 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 0

    Tell me where I said I would limit it? You begin lying about things I have said when you realize you do not have ground to stand on. Shameful.

  • Mon Apr 20, 2009 10:20 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    mike22685, I want bullying to end period, but unlike you I'm not willing to limit it to just homosexual kids who are getting bullied but to any and all kids who are getting bullied!!!

  • Mon Apr 20, 2009 8:22 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 0

    Believer, because as it has been pointed out many, many times to you, this is not just about a random group of kids picked by some fictitious agenda. The fact of the matter is: Gay youth are bullied at 3 times the amount of any other group of children. That is a HUGE percentage increase that you are ignoring. These kids are made to stand out in school, not because they are sashaying up and down the halls, but because kids are mercilessly picking on them and so far the problem has mostly been ignored because educators and administrators feel uncomfortable addressing issues of sexuality. This must come to an end, and as I have said, taking the importance off of this particular group when all research shows they are bullied the most is absolutely absurd and unconscionable.

  • Mon Apr 20, 2009 2:26 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    car, euthanasia of downs syndrome kids and bullying of homosexual kids and the connection is? Plus, once again have you seen one post that says they deserve it or I'm in favor of bullying homosexual kids, didn't think so. The point that many of us are trying to make is this, bullying in our schools is a reality and it must be stopped and it effects far more kids than homosexual kids alone. If the point is to bring an end to bullying then why not focus on the problem of bullying rather than just a select group of kids who get bullied? That's all the majority of us are saying!

  • Mon Apr 20, 2009 8:47 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    The rhetoric & propaganda from those opposing the Day of Silence , is some of the most reprehensible I've ever encountered. I have witnessed decades of violence, bloodshed & murder within the homosexual population. It is now glaringly apparent that the barbaric violence that mirrors what one sees from so much of the world of Islam , is accepted , if not enabled ; by the faith based.By the way , I worked with the mentally retarded years ago , for about five years. THis naturally included those with Chromosomal Trisomy (Down's). It was some of the most satifying work I've ever done & the children with Down's were terrific.But even with those who were severely & profoundly retarded , there ws never any thought of euthanasia. Meanwhile , I'm shocked at the visceral , hate driven attitude towards programs aimed at diminishing the endemic acts of terrorism here at home ; directed at gays.

  • Mon Apr 20, 2009 6:35 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    You are not being belligerent at all, but I have now explained to you multiple times why you will not find reports of this violence. These youth are terrified to report it because it means they would be outed to their parents, who then might kick them out of their homes. I too would LOVE IT if all of these crimes were reported and the students who thought they could target gays without a problem were taken away in handcuffs, but that is why we need the Day of Silence, to call attention to the gay youth who feel they do not have a voice because of fear.

  • Mon Apr 20, 2009 12:27 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Mike,
    I an not trying to imagine anything. I merely ask for facts, or a site where I may read about them. Why does asking for facts appear to be such confrontational issue? I have tried to state these questions in a nonbelligerant manner, if I am somehow doing otherwise please tell me.

  • Sun Apr 19, 2009 1:14 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    Ender, you can imagine whatever you would like, but I have experienced these things and heard the cries of gay youth who have experienced them. Many, many gay youth are not yet out to their parents or loved ones. Many youth are targeted for even being perceived as gay, even if they aren't or if they are and haven't ever said it to anyone. Many of the youth I worked with in RI were raped or attacked and made up stories about where they got the bruises (one girl joined multiple sports teams solely so she'd have an excuse for bruising!) so that they wouldn't be outed to their parents, and there is a huge fear about being outed to parents if they go to an administrator as well. It is a reality, and it is sickening that it happens in school.

  • Sat Apr 18, 2009 1:44 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 3

    ender, welcome to thw world of mickeyc whose motto is "when in doubt, insult". He has a habit of being very short and rude with anyone who he believes is diagreeing with his point of view.

  • Sat Apr 18, 2009 1:37 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    MickeyC.,
    I have read and re-read my post. I am unable to see what was negative about my post. I merely ask that evidence is provided to support allegations. I am not trying to offend anyone, I am just asking for facts. Please explain how this is perceived as anything other than a query for data. I tried to ask in a non-belligerent manner. I am aware that many, many things occur that I am unaware of. But I am also aware that many horrific stories that circulate on the web are often urban legends.
    Please explain or demonstrate how I should've asked such a question about this manner.

  • Fri Apr 17, 2009 2:33 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Pastor Nick* have there ever been signs of legal neglect?)

    No, just she is laid off, and her ex-husband is also, so she is not getting child support.

    Aunts never been in rehab, I had to do that with my mother, and it was a horrible experience,(kind of leery of doing it again) didn't help mom, but she did finally quit drinking when she got saved :o)

  • Fri Apr 17, 2009 9:40 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 3

    Let truth prevail and let it be spoken, homosexual activity is unseemly (Rom 1:27.) If you are bound in homosexual confusion and activity and you have ears to hear, you do not need a day of silence, but a day of repentance. Turn to God, calling upon the name of the Lord today. Because God so loved, deliverance is available by way of Jesus Christ and His cross.

    "For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God" (1Co 1:18.)

  • Fri Apr 17, 2009 8:06 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Prophet, of course no bragging, what a wonderful story to be able to share! I am very hesitant about the drugs the prescribe...if you're on an anti-depressant, a possible side effect should NOT be possible thoughts of suicide, haha! Even the ADHD medications that are given to children today...some have been shown to have a similar effect on your brain that opiates do. I simply think that there are many natural cures, that God wills, which can be much more effective (I started going to a chiropractor a few months ago for tension headaches, they have completely disappeared! What a beautiful body with a natural ability to heal itself God gave us! Praise him!)

    Good luck to you on your studies as counselors. It is certainly a hectic schedule at times (hence the tension headaches) but man is it rewarding! It is such an honor that people place their trust in you when they are feeling at their lowest, and Christ uses you as a vessel to lift them up to him when they're not sure how to get there. Truly a blessing.

  • Thu Apr 16, 2009 8:40 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    She went from being a very introverted lady, who was not at all sociable or even had a love or compassion for others, to a beautifully spirited woman. She had no desire when we met for the ministry. She never wanted to get involved with anything. She just wanted to be alone and depressed.
    Now God has given her such a love for people and a desire to serve others. We have lead home prayer groups, home Bible studies, we just stepped down from our ministry at church as CARE ministers. We coordinated people and materials to help care for the needs of our church members, as well as our community. Helping with moves, visiting people in the hospital, setting up food and help for people in need. She is also a volunteer Christian counselor at our local jail. And we are finishing up our training to be Christian marriage counselors. That is the next step God is leading us. We haven't stepped into our evangelistic ministry that God told me about, but that is His timing. Until then, we will be faithful with what He has us do, no matter how small.

    I do not say these things to brag on us, because it's not us. It's Him. This is a testimony of how God can take a suicidal, introverted, frightened lady and turn her, by His unending and unfathomable love, into a woman of grace, mercy, love and passion.
    If God can change her, I know He can do anything!

  • Thu Apr 16, 2009 8:33 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Pastor Nick

    LOL. It wasn't easy. You understand how a man's pride works. It's hard to humble yourself to God and do His will. But it's always worth it.

    And we have no problem with telling our testimony. The Bible says we will overcome by the blood and by our testimony. How will people know there's hope, unless we share what God has done for us? And besides, I've shared it a number of times here on CP, though usually not received by those who don't believe in God's delivering and healing power.
    My wife had dealt with chronic depression and suicide since her early teens. She tried a number of times before we had met to kill herself. She was still very much in bondage when we met and got married. She was on prozac, which did nada. Many times I would spend my drive home from work wondering if she'd be alive when I got home. On top of that, she would have rage attacks where she would become violent and physical for about 30-60 minutes. And when it was all over she'd have no idea what happened.
    As I said in my last post, she was a baby Christian. But I had enough faith for both of us. One night we attended a revival at a church I used to go to, where the power of God moved a lot in the gifts of the Spirit. It was a lady evangelist/prophetess speaking. As she was finishing, she called out my wife and spoke the Word of God to her. She never even touched my wife, and had no idea about her condition. But she said that God was touching her and healing her that very moment. And it was true.
    We went home and I tossed her Prozac, and she has NEVER had another bout with depression, or even another thought of suicide, or her rages.

  • Thu Apr 16, 2009 7:25 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Prophet, a beautiful testament to the workings of love...a man for his wife, God for his people! Thank you for sharing, and I pray that God continues to bless your relationship with blossoms. Also, I would be interested in hearing how your wife overcame suicide and depression. As a counselor, working with someone who is suicidal is one of the scariest and most uncertain times, so hearing how people overcame that it always great (although I do realize it is very personal, so in your time.)

  • Thu Apr 16, 2009 6:04 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

    A person who professes to be a Christian who is willfully living in sin is normally in one of two categories, a baby Christian who has been left to fend for themselves or a person who has not had a genuine conversion experience. Some churches to include even evangelical churches appear to live by this concept, save-em, bathe-em, and let-em go and do not properly disciple baby Christians and we see the results in many of those churches and in the lives of those baby Christians. Then there are those who have bought into the cheap-grace gospel where they think salvation is about getting a fire insurance policy that allows one to live their life anyway they choose or those who have had a highly emotional experience but have never had a genuine conversion experience. So in some cases it's difficult to say which catergory those individuals fall into, but at the same time we know that all of them are not in the place spiritually where they need to be.

  • Thu Apr 16, 2009 5:46 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    Pastor Nick,

    "If you try to force someone to change, chances are they will not only shut you out, but they will then become even more stubborn."

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~`

    Amen. I am a third generation Christian. A grandson of a missionary, son of an ordained minister. I was born on Saturday and in church on Sunday, so to speak.
    My wife, on the other hand, though raised religious, had no relationship with God. She had been saved only a couple years when we got married. I had a strong calling on my life, which I told her about when we were courting.
    Having such a strong calling upon my life, and being a bit impatient, I wanted so bad to move my wife into the ministry with me. I wanted to force her into a ministrial role. But God told me "no". It wasn't my place to change her, or force her. He told me to just love her, pray with and for her, and be the spiritual head of our house. In His timing He would move her. Reluctantly I submitted. In my heart I knew He was right. LOL. He always is, amen?
    Though it's been 16 years, because I have obeyed God and done what He's asked, I have seen my wife blossom like I never thought I would! Even beyond what I thought I could do on my own. Isn't God wonderful?
    Someday I would like to share our testimony on her past suicide and chronic depression. It is truly amazing where God brought her from , and where He's brought her too.

    I agree. We can only lead, we cannot force.

  • Thu Apr 16, 2009 5:21 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

    Delight, I thought it was obvious that it was an exaggeration, but truthful nonetheless. There most certainly are Christian who can quote the Bible verbatim, and we all know them. I think it is wonderful to have people like them in our community, and I think it is important to know the Bible inside out and backwards. Delight, all people, Christians included, are sinners. Yes, there are sins that are habitual and there are those that we maybe do once, ask forgiveness, and never do again, but we still sin. We may try our hardest not to and do it infrequently, but we still sin, and such is the human condition.

    I agree, being a Christian is not always glamorous, but at the same time, what a blessing to have God's love surrounding you and abounding from all you do. What a blessing to be called to testify God's love to everyone! How lucky are we? In that aspect, yes, Christianity is a very beautiful gift given to us to carry on by Christ.

    As far as making people change: You're right, they change when their current state just isn't livable anymore, but that change rarely happens overnight. If you try to force someone to change, chances are they will not only shut you out, but they will then become even more stubborn. I have found that leading gently by being a true example of Christ and challenging them to do the same will eventually make it too painful to stay where they are because they know they are hurting Christ by doing so.

    If you approach Christianity and spreading God's word differently, I applaud your efforts and think we are working towards the same end. Let us focus on the end and our work together will make more sense. God bless!

    -Pastor Nick

  • Thu Apr 16, 2009 2:03 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 1

    Not only do I agree with Jehovahnissi regarding tolerance of sin I also take issue with the characterization of Christians as "sinners". Jesus told the adulterous woman to "sin no more".

    How can that be possible?

    Through the santification of the Holy Spirit.

    A sinner is one who lives in sin. Christians cannot live in sin because of the Holy Spirit's work. We can stumble into sin but we also quickly get up and confess it. If we do not get up from sin but continue to live in it as a sinner, then we are carnal at best. As much as some would like to believe, carnal Christians have no salvation...they would by definition be lukewarm toward God and from reading Rev 3:15 Jesus will vomit them from His mouth.

    Although I cannot be the final judge of sin, I must not fail to address sin when it is spoken
    of. To tolerate sin is to condone it and can allow the sinner to forego the Godly sorrow over his sin that eventually leads one to repentance and salvation. There is no salvation without repentance.

    This is why I disagree with this statement "as I said in another posting, people WILL NOT change if the change doesn't look "glamorous."

    More accurately, people will not change unless the pain of remaining where they are is more painful than changing their hearts. True Christianity is not glamorus nor should we show that it somehow is, nothing glamorous in picking up your cross daily!

    There was an exaggeration in the Nick's post as well; depicting Christians as "right away" having a verse to counter their wrongdoing or "beating them over the head with Scripture" is a misrepresentation of what true Christians do.

    Jesus never faltered when it came to discussing one's sin; from the Pharasees to the adulterous woman to Peter, Jesus SPEAKS UP. We also should speak up and genuinely love another enough to tell them where they have gone wrong and where they need to go from here.
    If we feel we must end up talking harshly to them, we have overstepped our mission to let God do the saving!

  • Thu Apr 16, 2009 7:51 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

    Amen Wowie, they certainly are!

    As for the enabling piece, I wouldn't worry. There are multiple trains of thought from a counseling perspective, one being the tough love perspective with the idea that if they hit rock bottom, they will pull themselves out, the other being more along the lines of what you're doing. With a family history of drug and alcohol addiction, is there a common factor for becomming addicted, or was it more than your aunt was around a culture of drug and alcohol use and eventually became addicted herself? Has she been in and out of rehab, and if so, have you ever had a professional intervention staged for her? (Don't feel like you have to answer those questions, I realize they are personal, but I was just trying to get a better picture.) The only suggestions I would have would be to continue loving your aunt through the addiction, doing whatever you can to get her the help she needs, and make sure that her son is safe (you mentioned that she didn't provide an Easter basket...have there ever been signs of legal neglect?)

  • Thu Apr 16, 2009 7:38 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    I'd like to share something else, because I am just so thankful to God for it. My grandma was saved about 15 years ago and God gave her the strength to overcome her addiction, and while she died from the lingering effects of it, she testified to my grandpa from her deathbed about the need for him to get his heart right with God. Well, we buried her and grandpa went about the task of getting the death certificates, headstone, insurance policies taken care of. Five weeks later when he had run out of things to keep himself occupied. He had some time to think about what she had said and he went to church. He gave his heart to God that Sunday morning, and we found him dead two days later. Losing her was expected.. we had almost a year to get used to the idea, losing him was a total shock to US. But God knew, and he gave my grandpa that one last opportunity to receive Him. What better way to ease our pain of losing them so close together, than saving both their souls! Praise God. His ways are Amazing!

  • Thu Apr 16, 2009 7:14 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Pastor Nick and Jehovahnissi,

    *I love this dialogue we are having.*

    I do too, and I really would appreciate your opinions on how to deal with the situation.

  • Thu Apr 16, 2009 6:50 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    Enabling..*sigh* so what should I do, turn my back on her and her little boy like the rest of her family? I can tell you that being abandoned by them has not helped her drinking, but the pain of that, has made it worse. And her little boy is an innocent victim of her addiction, I can't do that to him. It's a rock and a hard place believe me.

    *Although Scripture instructs us not to judge, it also instructs us to discern and admonish*

    Yes, and both her mother and father dying within 6 weeks of each other from the same addiction she has, has really opened her eyes. She realizes she is headed down the same road, we have talked about it often.

    As far as loving man more than God, that is a non-issue.
    God knows He is first in my heart.

    PLEASING GOD -PLEASING MEN
    Can you please elaborate on what in my post this pertains to? Thank you!

  • Thu Apr 16, 2009 6:34 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

    Wowie, thank you for your response. I have never heard the expression described in that way before, and it does make sense. I am sorry that you have the burden of a loved one with an addiction. It is such a painful road to see them go down, and I absolutely understand what you mean now about hating the sin.

    Jehovah, I hope my message didn't come across as tolerating sin, that was not my intent. Certainly, as a Christian, I have no problem standing up and telling someone what they are doing is wrong, even if it is a loved one or a friend or a group doing something (a big problem I experience is people feeling it is OK to gossip about others) and I certainly expect the same from my loved ones, heck, even strangers! I do know; however, that as a counselor I always take into account people's feelings when I have a conversation, and think speaking harshly to someone must be saved up for select times (i.e. someone who has an addiction...if you speak harshly to them all the time, they will either shut you out or your words will mean nothing to them. If you show them mercy and compassion, but react with righteous judgment at select times, it has a bucket of cold water effect, and can be a positive thing.) If you are constantly "judging" someone's sins, it tends to lose the effect. If every time you see someone step out of line, you are right there with a Bible verse to prove why they are wrong, the Bible becomes something of an annoyance, and as I said in another posting, people WILL NOT change if the change doesn't look "glamorous." My point is this: Absolutely, do not tolerate sin or wrongdoing, and do not let it slide when you see it, but, think about the ways in which you are having those conversations. For instance, with gossip, I do not throw down a Bible verse to wring our the guilt from everyone who was participating, but I may say "Oh I really love that person! Why are you talking like that about them?" to send the clear message that what they are doing is not OK. I then use the Bible to preach verses of love, because it encourages people to think "Wow, that Bible has some good stuff!" and eventually they begin reading and discover ON THEIR OWN some of the not so pleasant stuff it has to say as well (which can be much more powerful when self-discovered than when chastised in public.)

    I know I type a lot on these boards, so I'll pause, and I'd really love to hear other's responses. I love this dialogue we are having.

  • Thu Apr 16, 2009 12:20 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    I wish we could talk face to face, so things wouldn't be misunderstood. I said to my sister the other day that I didn't appreciate someones "tone of voice" when they posted to me and she laughed her head off, she said "what? are their keys clicking too loudly for you?" Anyway...had to be there
    Let me give you an example of what "hating the sin and loving the sinner" means to me, because I in no way EVER meant that it should be used to judge people... My aunt has an alcohol/drug addiction..(by the way, 3 people in my family have died as a direct consequence of their alc/drug addictions in the last year, 2 just last month.) It is safe to say that I hate drug/alcohol addiction. I hate what it has done to my aunt physically, mentally, financially, spiritually. I hate what it does to families. You hate the sin. So you pray for the sin be removed from her life. Then you take her groceries. Then you make sure her little boy has an Easter basket because she has no money to buy one. Then you sit and talk to her and encourage her and love her. Then you ask if she needs a ride to church on Sunday, even though she always says no. You love the sinner. I hope no one would twist that phrase to justify judging someone.
    As a side note, what prickles the hair on my neck is seeing
    "I'm a christian and you're not"
    "no you're not"
    "no you're not"
    saw it earlier, breaks my heart

    God Bless, and thank you for making me consider my words a little closer, hope you have a good night.

  • Wed Apr 15, 2009 10:58 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    The hair on my neck prickles when I hear catch phrases like "Love the sinner, hate the sin." We are called to love people. Yes, we are ALL sinners, and yes, we hate sin, but I feel like too many Christians use that expression as an excuse to judge freely and without consequence. Again, we can call people out when they do wrong. We cannot pass JUDGMENT on one another, that is the job of God.

    When I talk about loving another person, I mean leading by example. You show them Christ's love by leading as an example of a Christ. People have all heard scriptures, often many, many times over, so I see no point in beating them over the head with them. If we show people how to live them, that is something very different. That is what love is. That is what Christ taught us to do. Loving a person does not mean ignoring their sins or wrongdoings, but it does mean acknowledging that we too are sinners and humbling ourselves to realize we are in no place to throw stones.

  • Wed Apr 15, 2009 9:37 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    Song2vs4: I am not called by Christ to endorse or approve sin. To love, yes. Approve, no.

    Exactly, no disagreement here.
    Hate the sin, Love the sinner. (And isn't that what we all are? Thank God for His Grace and Mercy!) Hope you all had a great day :o)

  • Wed Apr 15, 2009 9:21 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Mike: "I wholeheartedly agree DP! "

    Wow! Do you think we can have peace in the middle east after all??? (tee, hee)

  • Wed Apr 15, 2009 8:24 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 2

    All this talk about love is great and I agree love is a powerful thing. Where I disagree is there seems to be some confusion regarding what it means to love another person. I can love a person but not approve of their behavior. I think this is where the rub is. I am not called by Christ to endorse or approve sin. To love, yes. Approve, no.

  • Wed Apr 15, 2009 4:26 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    "I also find your false accusations against people a pain as well."

    And yet we place ourselves in the position to be falsely accused when we carry on these kinds of conversations with the unrepentant. The only reason we are seeing a backlash is that we continue to entertain these poster's comments like they have any value in the first place.

  • Wed Apr 15, 2009 4:20 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Yeah, NOW Mickey shows up. After jester is gone. Figures.

  • Wed Apr 15, 2009 2:06 pm Agree: 3   Disagree: 0

    "and bring mickey back on. he's not quite the wuss as you. "

    Oh I'm here bottom boy. I've no problem dealing with vermin, so bring it on.

  • Wed Apr 15, 2009 2:00 pm Agree: 4   Disagree: 1

    "You both literally turned my stomach with your cruelty."

    Don't pay too much attention to Jester, he's known to be a mental case. The poster child for what happens when STDs go untreated. Mostly, he hates himself, with good reason I might add, so ignore him.

  • Wed Apr 15, 2009 1:30 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 6

    "But how dare you treat someone who is misled, deceived, whatever you want to call it, how dare you treat them like this, and then act as if their sin is any worse than yours!"

    We admit we're all sinners. We don't come this site and claim to commit sodomy, or any sin and say Jesus loves the fact that we are doing it. Big difference.

  • Wed Apr 15, 2009 11:14 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 6

    Pastor Nick and Wow -

    Spoken like true counselors and we're grateful for brothers in the Lord that can come along and be a part of the body. I've been posting here for a few years now - with a few long absences. Obviously, you'll see the sheep, shepherds, and, yes, the wolves posting here. I sort of liken this spiritual battle as to a boxing ring - Nick and Wow are the guys in the corner with the tissue and bandages for both sides of the ring. We're grateful for you and good for what you do, but there are those in the ring that are actually having to do the job. Fortunately for our corner, we've already been declared the victor through Christ.

  • Wed Apr 15, 2009 10:50 am Agree: 2   Disagree: 0

    I wholeheartedly agree DP! I think even if there are disagreements, learning takes place from talking things out to reach a better understanding for both sides of the issue. Encouraging students to stay home doesn't accomplish anything.

  • Wed Apr 15, 2009 9:29 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    I think the best way for Christian students to deal with the DOS is to openly discuss it at school. They won't have any opposition!!!

  • Wed Apr 15, 2009 6:14 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    Thank you Wowie and Pastor Nick.

  • Wed Apr 15, 2009 5:44 am Agree: 5   Disagree: 0

    The childishness of much of this debate sad.

  • Tue Apr 14, 2009 10:43 pm Agree: 3   Disagree: 0

    Wowie, excellent post. My name is Pastor Nick, I'm somewhat new to the website (I've been "auditing" for a little while seeing what's what.) One of my very favorite Bible passages is 1 Corinthians, 13:13: "And now these three remain: faith, hope, and love. But the greatest of these, is LOVE." What a beautiful passage to live our lives from, and what a blessing it is to be called as Christians. I am a chaplain for a Christian counseling group in CT, and I have had the honor of sharing God's love with many who felt lost. I have found that never once was it beating people over the head with scripture that brought them to Christ, it was demonstrating who Christ was and what he is still about in our lives today. Be love, share love, build love, and others will come to know it. My prayer, tonight, it a prayer for healing, for all involved in this discussion tonight. It seems that much hurt has come from many directions for some time on this board, and I pray that the hurt will be healed by none other than love. Practice it in all you do, the results have worked wonders for bettering my life!

    God's blessings, all have a good night!
    Pastor Nick

  • Tue Apr 14, 2009 10:27 pm Agree: 5   Disagree: 0

    One of the Pharisees tested Jesus with a question, "Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" (Matthew 22:36 NIV). Jesus replied, " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments" (Matthew 22:37-40 NIV).


    Jesus added something more to the greatest Commandment: "The second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself'" (Matthew 22:39 NIV). In First John the connection is explicit: "We love because he first loved us. If anyone says, "I love God," yet hates his brother, he is a liar. For anyone who does not love his brother, whom he has seen, cannot love God, whom he has not seen. And he has given us this command: Whoever loves God must also love his brother" (1 John 4:19-21 NIV).

    Loving God empowers us to love other people. The Commandments not to murder (Exodus 20:13) and not to steal (Exodus 20:15) are not just about refraining from evil. When seen in the light of the fundamental principle of loving others, they imply that we should look for positive ways to enhance the life and prosperity of our neighbors. The focus on love helps us not to settle for a minimum concern for neighbors, but to reach out to them. Jesus loved us perfectly and gave himself for us (Galatians 2:20). He saved us when none of us could save ourselves (Romans 5:6-10). And now, when we put our trust in him, we are united to him, and we are transformed so that we can imitate the pattern of his love: "A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another. By this all people will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another" (John 13:34-35 RSV). Through Jesus Christ we receive not only understanding of God's will, but power and motivation to serve Him. In receiving His love, we can, in turn, love others.



    2000 Billy Graham Evangelistic Association

  • Tue Apr 14, 2009 10:26 pm Agree: 4   Disagree: 0

    Flagged as inappropriate. show Mike22685 said: There is absolutely NO reason or place for it, especially if you call yourselves Christians. I may not agree with everything he says, but on this one he's absolutely right, I am continually shocked to see so much hate/cruelty among people who profess to be christians on this site, do you realize what this would look like to an unbeleiver or seeker who might come here looking for answers to questions they may have? I've been saved since I was 14 years old, will be 32 tomorrow, and I myself am so saddened and disenheartened by what I'm seeing here. If you have scripture that God puts on your heart to show someone do it! You can't go wrong with Gods word. But how dare you treat someone who is misled, deceived, whatever you want to call it, how dare you treat them like this, and then act as if their sin is any worse than yours! I was taught that God hates ALL sin. Bless your hearts, I'm praying for all of us on here that we would show that we are Christians not just say it, and God forbid that any souls be lost because we are not reflecting Jesus love in our words and actions! hide

  • Tue Apr 14, 2009 9:15 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    and bring mickey back on. he's not quite the wuss as you.

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