Updated 12:19 pm.EST, Mon November 23, 2009

Society|Mon, Apr. 13 2009 02:59 PM EDT

Most U.S. Christians Don't Believe Satan, Holy Spirit Exist

By Jennifer Riley|Christian Post Reporter

The majority of American Christians do not believe that Satan is a real being or that the Holy Spirit is a living entity, the latest Barna survey found.

Nearly six out of ten Christians either strongly agreed or somewhat agreed with the statement that Satan "is not a living being but is a symbol of evil," the survey found.

Forty percent strongly agreed with the statement while 19 percent of American Christians somewhat agreed.

In contrast, about 35 percent of American Christians believe Satan is real. Twenty-six percent strongly disagreed with the statement that Satan is merely symbolic and about one-tenth (9 percent) somewhat disagreed.

The remaining eight percent of American Christians responded they were unsure what to believe about the existence of Satan.

Interestingly, the majority of Christians believe a person can be under the influence of spiritual forces, such as demons or evil spirits, even though many of these same people believe Satan is merely a symbol of evil. Two out of three Christians agreed that such forces are real (39 percent agreed strongly, 25 percent agreed somewhat).

Likewise, most Christians in the United States do not believe that the Holy Spirit is a living force. Fifty-eight percent strongly or somewhat agreed with the statement that the Holy Spirit is "a symbol of God's power or presence but is not a living entity."

Only one-third of Christians disagreed with the statement that the Holy Spirit is not just symbolic (9 percent disagreed somewhat, 25 percent disagreed strongly). Nine percent expressed they were unsure.

Interestingly, about half (49 percent) of those who agreed that the Holy Spirit is only a symbol but not a living entity, agreed that the Bible is totally accurate in all of the principles it teaches. The Bible states that the Holy Spirit is God's power or presence, not just symbolic.

"Most Americans, even those who say they are Christian, have doubts about the intrusion of the supernatural into the natural world," commented George Barna, founder of The Barna Group and author of books analyzing research concerning America's faith.

"Hollywood has made evil accessible and tame, making Satan and demons less worrisome than the Bible suggests they really are," he said. "It's hard for achievement-driven, self-reliant, independent people to believe that their lives can be impacted by unseen forces."

But a large majority of American Christians agree that a person must choose to side with either good or evil. More than six out of ten American Christians strongly agreed (61 percent) with the idea that a person must either side with God or with the devil - that there is no in-between position. Another 15 percent somewhat agreed.

Just one out of ten adults disagreed somewhat (10 percent) and a similar proportion (11 percent) strongly disagreed. Only a few adults (3 percent) did not have an opinion on the issue.

Barna explained that because of the "sheer force of repetition" many Americans "intellectually" accept the idea that you either side with God or Satan and there's no in-between, even though this idea does "not get translated into practice."

Other survey findings include a significant number of self-described Christians believing that Jesus sinned when he lived on earth, contrary to the core teaching of Christianity that teaches the divinity and perfection of Jesus.

More than one-fifth (22 percent) strongly agreed that Jesus Christ sinned when He lived on earth, with an additional 17 percent agreeing somewhat.

However, nearly half of American Christians (46 percent) strongly disagreed with the idea that Jesus sinned, and 9 percent disagreed somewhat. Six percent did not have an opinion on the statement.

The Barna report is based on telephone interviews for two surveys among people who described themselves as Christians. A total of 1,871 adults were randomly selected from across the 48 continental states, with the first 873 interviews conducted in January and February 2008, and the remaining 998 interviews conducted in November 2008.

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  • Sun Jul 12, 2009 11:17 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    i dont want ot offend anyone but the main thing that is wrong with our so called churches now is they are being run as a money makeing buisness.example. the one i was a member of had a god called spirit filled pastor for many years we had 350 members.when he passed the pulpit comm. in which were many long time members but they picked and we hired a young man not to long out of school (which is a trend at least in our area) so he has been there now for three years, our membership has fallen to less than 100 people. the only time we have services now is on sunday morning with very little sunday school attendance.the board says they cant afford to open the doors any time except sunday,this is now the trend in our part of the world .we had better go back to the old ways and forget about educated preachers .i have studyed this problem now for over a year and i hold the church(the christian people)responsible for the moral decline in this country today.we sit back and let them take preyer out of school and thats where it started.we now have school shootings teen pregnacy abortions gangs gay rights crooked politicans and now they are comeing after whats left of the church.we have to do more than pray we have to take action. lets do what christ did when he got angry lets turn over a few tables and throw a few out the door. lets let god have our churches back. harvey

  • Sun Jul 12, 2009 10:44 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    I find this survey a little suspect.

  • Sun May 03, 2009 10:25 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 1

    My guess is that they also surveyed non-christian cults, like JWs, Mormons, and the like, all which identify themselves as "christian" but deny the trinity and most of the time the deity of Christ. This article doesnt differentiate so as far as I am concerned its flawed

  • Sun May 03, 2009 12:34 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

    This is not surprising - as we showed some years ago, using Barnaâ

  • Sun May 03, 2009 12:26 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 0

    Flagged as inappropriate. show This is not surprising - as we showed some years ago, using Barnaâ hide

  • Sat Apr 25, 2009 10:37 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    Flagged as inappropriate. show In Re: The HOLY SPIRIT - He is the "Comforter" that Christ promised to send unto His Disciples; He is the "Spirit of Truth" that reveals "all that is true" (compelling some to admit/confess to their crimes/sins - compelling others to "reveal their crimes/sins"; He is the "Protector" that "makes a way for us to escape, avoiding entering into sin, diverting us from violating the Commandments of God and Christ; He is! For most of the "chosen few" of God and Christ, the Holy Spirit is the one that keeps them pure and righteous for their Ministry that God and Christ gave - por exemplo, Paul, who was directed to go into certain cities, knowing well in advance that he would end up in prison - this was the work of the Messenger from God, the Holy Spirit! He was the one who directed me (thinking that I myself was responding to my own thoughts), He was the one that directed me to give my dad a hug and tell him that I loved him as I ascended the basement stairs at my father's house! I, not knowing that this was an act of reconciliation - for my earthly father passed away six months latter. My earthly brothers did not have this "resolution" with him upon dad's death! The Holy Spirit is the one that will "give you visions and dreams" of what was and is to come! He is the one that "reveals the secrets that are hidden in the scriptures - The written Word of God - the Authorized King James Version in its original form! NO IT'S IS NOT ACCORDING TO THE FALSE DA-VINCI CODE - but according to the combining of the scriptures from both the Old and the New Testaments which renders unto the Chosen One clarafication of God's Words and the "secrets contained therein"! For those who declare themselves to be Christians yet do not believe - they can not be True Christians - for it is the Holy Spirit that "secures eternal life" for the True Believer. He, the Holy Spirit, is the Person who "solidified" the body and Spirit of Christ for His resurrection AND IT IS HE that enabled Moses and Elijah to enter into the Kingdom of God without suffering death! IT IS HE THAT will do the same for the True Believer and Follower of the Commandments/Directions of God and Christ. AS IT IS WRITTEN! hide

  • Mon Apr 20, 2009 11:28 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

    What if the holy spirit leap-frogged onto the internet and enabled each individual to confirm personal revelations through research on the Internet, the following day?

    http://peaceandconflictresolution.googlepages.com/risingspreadofmysticexperience

    It may have happened already. Buckle-up and hang on!

  • JC »
    Mon Apr 20, 2009 2:41 pm Agree: 3   Disagree: 0

    The Article:

    "The majority of American Christians do not believe that Satan is a real being or that the Holy Spirit is a living entity, the latest Barna survey found".

    Translation:

    "The majority of American Christians do not engage in the good fight along side the Holy Spirit, spoken of by the Apostle Paul, and have forgot who the enemy is. Some have even begun to doubt whether he ever existed at all, the latest Barna survey found".

    Any questions?

  • Sun Apr 19, 2009 1:38 am Agree: 9   Disagree: 2

    Anyone who has felt the "Holy Spirit" knows firmly of His existence. The Holy Spirit is the "love" that exists between the Father and the Son (as real as are the Father and the Son. I've never seen Satan so successful in sowing doubts as is current in today's world. He is working ovetime. Funny how many of our youth will worship at the altar of drugs, but not at the feet of He who Is (and life runs so much smoother with the Big Guy)

  • Sun Apr 19, 2009 1:20 am Agree: 2   Disagree: 3

    Des149 says it all. Just look around and you will see Satan (his works are everywhere)

  • Sat Apr 18, 2009 8:02 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 2

    rhi, why is somebody flagging "rhi bran"?

  • Sat Apr 18, 2009 7:46 pm Agree: 4   Disagree: 1

    I am sorry but these 'polls' drive me crazy with skepticism (Who?What?Where?When?Why?How?)Though, if it be true however, I take it as a sad reflection and warning for us to step up & love purely & Biblically. To come along side our brothers & sisters in the pew! As far as the culture at large and Satan...consider the analogy of the frog sitting in a pot of cool water. Slowly, the temp rises to boiling point. The frog never jumps out only to meet its death. We, in America, have been duped and dumbed down so bad we can't even 'think' straight. There is a purpose to this and it's demonic. Our youth has been fooled into thinking they are strong enough to duke it out with evil. Scarey. There was only one time when the Holy angels battled with Satan and expelled him from Heaven for his evil, prideful, deceitful, murderous heart. Only through Gods grace & mercy through the authority of Christ Jesus can we 'resist the devil and he will flee'.

  • Sat Apr 18, 2009 5:48 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    My great Irish mom told me "when Satan convinces you that he does not exist, you are already subject to him,"
    Fr Corapi (once on cocaine) says "if you want to know if Satan exists ask any Hell's Angel. I've seen Satan and so have they."

  • Sat Apr 18, 2009 12:40 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 4

    Speaking of sacrificing goats... I used to milk goats when I worked a group home for sexually abused kids. I decided that goats where a great symbol for Satan and would have been willing to sacrifice a bunch of them. Seriously, when one hears the first hand stories of sexually abused children, it is hard to understand why people are more willing to discuss Satan, than protect the most defenseless from such massive, human caused, evil.

  • Fri Apr 17, 2009 9:27 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    Hi Forslot,

    I take it you are asking me if I think God shapes or influences people and helps them not to sin. Sure. Conversely though, some people don't even believe in God and are very good and loving to their spouses. What influences them? I don't know. Are they serving God when they do good even though they don't recognize God? Does God get angry at them even though they are doing what he wants just because they don't give him credit? I don't think he does. That kind of makes God into an envious human who is full of pride. He's not that, in my mind.

    Some people are Christians who cheat on their spouses and then blame the devil. This seems an excuse. They were capable of making the right decision and didn't.
    Having said this, I don't claim any goodness for myself because I don't cheat. I don't have the make up for it, I think. I wouldn't even know how to go about it if I had the desire. In the same way I don't give myself credit for not committing homosexual acts because I have no desire to commit them.

    I'll give you another example to clarify what I'm trying to say. I started playing basketball at this Christian school with these Christian guys. This one guy is kind of a jerk despite his Jesus tattoos and he'll say things like, "That's a miss" as soon as I take a shot. I don't say anything to him even though I make a lot more than I miss. I started to think about that. I don't say, "In your face, chump" because I'm so good and righteous, I realized, its just because I'm introverted and quiet and I have always preferred reading a book than getting in a confrontation. Confrontations make me uncomfortable. I can't really take any credit for keeping my mouth shut although the end result is that I come across as a better Christian. Does God care about the reasons you do something good or does he only care in the end result? I don't know.

    Some people are Christians and have the desire to cheat but don't because of their belief that God will punish them. I guess they get some credit for that but aren't they just acting in their own self interest? They are displaying faith, I guess. I know that faith in and of itself is supposed to be a great virtue but I sometimes don't see the value in it other than to keep the pope dressed in fancy robes and Rod Parsley able to make the mortgage payments on his mansion.

    Let me wrap this up by tying it to my first paragraph. You ask, "If we don't serve God, whom do we serve?" I think we are serving ourselves if we don't serve God. Very few people go out in the woods and sacrifice goats to Satan, I'm guessing. I'm sure you would say that people who do evil are serving Satan even if they don't believe in him. I asked at the beginning if people who do good but don't believe in God are unknowingly serving God. I think they are. Isn't God smarter than the devil? If they do good without believing in him wouldn't God still like them?

  • Fri Apr 17, 2009 12:56 am Agree: 2   Disagree: 0

    This Barna survey just shows the lack of Biblical teaching in US churches and the fact that there are many in the pews who are not regenerate or "born again". Sadly, many who call themselves Christians are self-deluded and have never known a true relationship with God. Let us begin to evangelize in the pews and may our pastors preach the true Gospel of sovereign grace. May we also educate the converted in the whole counsel of God including the Biblical doctrines of the person of the Holy Spirit and the personhood, although created, of Satan and his minions.

  • Thu Apr 16, 2009 5:44 pm Agree: 3   Disagree: 0

    WOW! Let us pray that all our fellow christians pick up thier bibles and read them so that they are not so confused and understand what GOD has put before them.

    Keep all of them and myself in your prayers please.

    Imagine that 22% believe our savior was not divine however they call themselves christians. Very odd. They will be easy targets for Islamic conversion, Islam also believes christ was not divine, although they do believe he existed.

    May God bestow his grace upon us all and lead us to the truth, AMEN, May the Glory be to GOD!

  • Thu Apr 16, 2009 3:43 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    "I certainly believe in evil and that it is caused by a separation from God. I can call this Satan, I guess. I'm not sure what the conventional wisdom is from people on here. Is Satan a person? A spirit?"

    Don't know about (or trust!)conventional wisdom, but Judeo-Christian doctrine is that Satan is a supernatural being, a fallen angel. He is NOT a mere concept of evil.

    Evil ACTIONS are caused by separation from God, or our sin nature...OK, yes, evil is caused by separation from God. But Satan is not "caused" by Sin, Satan is a created being.

  • Thu Apr 16, 2009 3:24 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    I'm not sure what difference this makes. I'm also not sure why there is always so much emphasis on what people "believe." You can't really choose to believe something or not. You either do or you don't. If I tell you that last night a group of flying monkeys attacked my car on my way home, you can say, "I choose to believe you" but you probably really don't because you have the idea that flying monkeys don't exist. A person's mental capacity plus their environment determines what they believe. There are 700 million people in India who believe in Hinduism rather than Christianity for this reason, not because of a moral deficiency.

    I certainly believe in evil and that it is caused by a separation from God. I can call this Satan, I guess. I'm not sure what the conventional wisdom is from people on here. Is Satan a person? A spirit?

    I can tell you as an example, that I would never cheat on my wife. This is because I love her and don't want to hurt her. I've never had a guy in a red suit with horns and a pitchfork try to talk me into it. People who do cheat on their spouses have themselves to blame, I would think, and not their disbelief in Satan.

  • Thu Apr 16, 2009 3:18 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 0

    I can say I'm the President, but it doesn't mean I am. I can say I believe in Christ, but it doesn't mean I am a Christian. Go back in time and ask Judas if he believed Christ was the Messiah. He'd say yes. David Koresh said he was Christain, but he also said he was Christ.

    If I deny the Word of God, which He upholds by His Sovereign power, I am calling Him a liar. The problem is that people think they can make up their own God, their own Jesus, and their own imaginary circumstances of what comes after this life and call it truth. His Word is truth, and if I deny it, I have a different God, a different Christ, and I call God's Word a lie.

    This is what the Bible says is evidence of someone NOT being a Christian. The truth is these people are psuedo-Christians. They are living a sham. They are the exact representation of Matthew 7:22. They deny the Holy Spirit rightly, for they do not have it. And they deny the devil exists, for they are his servants.

  • Thu Apr 16, 2009 2:09 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    Blacksho,

    Jesus even spoke to Satan personally.

  • Thu Apr 16, 2009 12:20 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 0

    Many people do doubt that Satan exists. Let me merely say this:
    I)Jesus certainly believed in Satan. He makes numerous references to him.
    II)If Jesus is God, then he cannot be deceived, and Satan exists.
    III)If Jesus is NOT God, then we are all just spinning our wheels here.

  • DRJ »
    Thu Apr 16, 2009 12:13 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 1

    By all means...let's first check out what the 2nd and 3rd Century theologians said before we make up our minds. Or better yet...Let's ask the Holy Spirit if He exists! Of course, if you don't know that there even IS a Holy Spirit, you'll hve a hard time asking him. Better yet...why not ask Satan if he exists? Of course, if you're asking someone something, that kind of proves that he does actually exist doesn't it? Try this line of reasoning if you can follow. Satan doesn't want you to know he exists. That way he can dupe you continually into sinning against God. If you follow Satan's plan of disbelieving in him, you will (naturally) not need to believe in God's Holy Spirit. Why? Because the Holy Spirit is here to convict you of your sin and convince you that you need a Savior. He also guides you into all truth. Now if you don't believe in the Holy Spirit, you will NOT be led into the truth...the truth being that THERE IS A REAL DEVIL WHOSE NAME IS SATAN!!! Get it?

  • Thu Apr 16, 2009 12:04 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

    I have my doubts about that Satan thing.

  • Wed Apr 15, 2009 10:02 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

    MC,
    Are you talking about the gnostic gospels or the pseudigraphia? Heavens, documents usually written 2-3 generations after the four gospels. Usually written in coptic. Concentrated in one area of Egypt?
    With such credentials, any church father (or honest modern Bible scholar) would declare them bogus and bump them from the canon in two proverbial shakes of a lamb's tail.

  • Wed Apr 15, 2009 9:19 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    "You many thinks so but it is a fact. Many of the texts rejected by the early church fathers for inclusion in the NT"

    I tend to stick with what we have in greek. The reason they were not included in the cannon was because they could not prove they were the real deal. For more on how the New Testament was put together you can go to:

    http://www.americanbible.org/brcpages/thenewtestament

  • Wed Apr 15, 2009 9:10 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    "Blacksho, who's that?"

    Welcome back Blacksho...where you been?

  • Wed Apr 15, 2009 8:17 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    psalm 118:8 It is better to trust in the Lord then to put confidence in man.

  • Wed Apr 15, 2009 6:15 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    Sorry, bad joke. It's a reference to a popular movie of a few years ago, not one likely to have been seen by people on this board. But I was living in the World, then.

  • Wed Apr 15, 2009 5:52 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Blacksho, who's that? I don't remember that screen name.

  • Wed Apr 15, 2009 5:32 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    "Wow! What happened while I was gone?"

    I blame Canada.

  • Wed Apr 15, 2009 5:27 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Wow! What happened while I was gone?

  • Wed Apr 15, 2009 5:10 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    JC,

    Amen.

  • Wed Apr 15, 2009 3:07 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 0

    bass, it appears to me you are seriously asking those questions and not simply taking cheap shots at those of us who believe in the inerrancy of God's Word. Might I suggest the following books that can do a far better job than myself of explaining some of the assumed discrepancies you have noted. One I've mentioned already, "The Hard Sayings Of the Bible" by Kaiser, Davids, Bruce, and Brauch. Norman Geisler has a three book series called, "When Critics Ask", "When Skeptics Ask", and "When Cultists Ask". And in fact the first book speaks to the questions from Luke's account that you cited.

  • JC »
    Wed Apr 15, 2009 2:43 pm Agree: 4   Disagree: 2

    It always amazes me how even Christians can limit God's abilities?

    If I ask somebody who believes in God who sits on The Throne, is it impossible for Him to make a universe? The answer is no. If I ask if it is impossible for Him to make living creatures to inhabit this universe? The answer again is no. If I further this and ask if it is impossible for Him to create not only the seen but also the unseen in this universe? Again, the answer is no.

    But strangely enough, when it comes to one little book, God suddenly does not have the ability to orchestrate the creation and orientation.

    Beloved, the Bible is what it is, the way He wants it, not the way we want it, or the way the Canonical wanted it, but the way He wanted it. If this were not so, then it would not be His Word as it so clearly and concisely states.

    Beloved, the Bible cannot be from man either, for our fallen nature would disallow the creation of such literature. Please beloved, remember whose world this really is. When Satan tempted Jesus, he told Jesus that he would give him the kingdoms and the glories of the world if Jesus only bow to him. Jesus told him that only God, who sits on The Throne, is to be worshiped and did not bow. Notice that Jesus did not correct Satan on the ownership of the world, but only on who to bow to.

    As with all deceit and half truths, it all boils down to the same old stupid lie asked by Satan in The Garden, "Did God really say...".

    Well, did He or didn't He? That seems to be the million dollar question here. Did He say it, or didn't He.

    The answer is less difficult to understand than the question actually. Jesus said that His sheep know His voice. In other words, for those that know Him, also know His Word, because He does not speak in futility or deception. His Word, as only perfection can, always confirms itself. Always, no exceptions. But some would have you believe otherwise. These do not know Him, but only know of Him and therefore do not hear His voice. Jesus warned us of these and of false doctrines. He said do not believe them and do not follow them.

  • Wed Apr 15, 2009 2:13 pm Agree: 5   Disagree: 5

    Mickey,
    "The fact is many of texts not chosen were attributed to apostles or those close to the apostles. You actually need to read some of them before further comment. The decisions in many cases were indeed arbitrary and not always based on the criteria you list."

    The gospel attributed to Thomas was written c. 130 A.D., long after Thomas the apostle was dead. It flunks the first test. It contains teachings that Jesus never said, teachings that contradict truths accepted by Jews and Christians. It flunks the second test. It was not widely accepted and used in the majority of Christian churches; in fact, when the church did finally take a vote on it, the bishops voted 216 to 2 against its inclusion in the canon. It flunks the final test.

    If you have PROOF that they were excluded for others reasons, lay it on the table. I'm trying to help you, not pick a fight with you. Your sarcasm suggests you are not really interested in the truth.

  • JC »
    Wed Apr 15, 2009 12:46 pm Agree: 3   Disagree: 1

    Beloved, the very argument that the Holy Spirit, or that Satan do not exist is in itself blasphemous. Didn't Jesus himself have conversations with Satan, and those who Satan acted through? Did he not cast out demon agents of Satan? Or was all this just the rantings of a lunatic on an acid trip that just happen to get written down?

    As far as the Holy Spirit, didn't Jesus say He was going to send The Helper? Didn't The Helper show up in the upper room 10 days after the ascension, and has been showing up ever since. For proof of this one only has to do a simple Google search for words such as "Azusa Street Revival", and many, many others.

    Come on beloved, either you believe the entire book, or you reject the entire book. If one has a problem with the beginning, the middle, or the end, then one is going to have problems with everything else written as well.

    Beloved, there can only be one truth. If one comes across two things that claim to be truth, and both contradict each other, then logically one of them is lying. It is both illogical and impossible to have more than one truth. We are not talking about interpretation, parables, or such here. Jesus was very specific.

    One must be careful in claiming these things, because when one does, one calls God a liar. Didn't God ask Satan what he was doing in the book of Job. If these believe God exists, then why would they think that He talks to entities that do not exist?

    The argument is weak and invalidates itself by the very word these suppose to question. One cannot take a slice of pie and call it a whole pie, for this would be a lie, with partial truth mixed in to make it more tasty. One has to take the entire pie to call it a whole pie.

  • Wed Apr 15, 2009 12:24 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 2

    Mickey,

    Thanks, but I don't need to start at square one; have already done much reading in the area of biblical studies. You just need to supply some proof from something other than an amateur web site when you make claims like that.

    For example, you wrote: "Many of the texts rejected by the early church fathers for inclusion in the NT are available at many books stores. As a matter of fact it is interesting to read them and try to determine why they were rejected in the first place."

    I can tell you off the top of my head why they were rejected. The early church by 100 A.D. (not church councils of the 2d and 3d centuries) had decided the NT books we have today were acceptable because they met three criteria. First, the book had to be written by an apostle or someone closely associated with an apostle (e.g., Mark or Luke). Second, the book had to agree with what they already knew to be true (that's why the "gospels" of Thomas and Mary were excluded; they are Gnostic in doctrine). Third, the book had to have widespread ecclesiastical usage (widely accepted throughout most of the churches).

    I hope that helps in your quest for the truth.

  • Wed Apr 15, 2009 11:41 am Agree: 2   Disagree: 1

    "The idea that the NT Church made up doctrine as it went along seems far-fetched: "

    You many thinks so but it is a fact. Many of the texts rejected by the early church fathers for inclusion in the NT are available at many books stores. As a matter of fact it is interesting to read them and try to determine why they were rejected in the first place.

  • Wed Apr 15, 2009 10:45 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    believer - Thanks for the thoughtful, thorough response. I have come to expect nothing less from you. Reading all three passages, the explanation from the book you cite appears to be doing a lot of bending over backwards to get the toothpaste back in the tube, but ok.

    The Matthew quote was just one of many that all sorts of hoops need to be jumped through to hold the infallibility argument together. Another one that comes to mind is the impossible backdrop Luke provides for the Christmas story. The Roman census, requiring people to return to their ancestral city, the citation of current leaders which didn't, in fact, coincide, etc. Of course I am playing the devil's advocate here, as I always am, because I like the discussions with you. But this is entirely off topic so I don't intend to send you or anyone else on any wild goose chases.

  • Wed Apr 15, 2009 10:21 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 2

    Viking,

    Yes, I believe the evidence shows that John the apostle wrote the gospel bearing his name and the 3 letters and Revelation. Strong evidence for John writing Rev. is found in the writings of Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Tertullian, Origen, and Hippolytus. Those who disagreed with this usually disagreed because of theological differences, e.g., Dionysuis of Alexandria disliked the teaching on the millenium (a view he did not share), so he (and later Eusebius) argued against an apostolic origin for Rev. Eusebius speaks of John the elder and John the apostle in different parts of his Ecclesiastical History, but this is hardly proof that there were two authors to the Johannine corpus. Peter was certainly an apostle, yet he referred to himself as an elder in 1 Peter 5:1.

  • Wed Apr 15, 2009 10:14 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 2

    Believer,

    When it comes to matters of theology and practice, we are agreement on everything you've posted since I joined the forums (almost a year now). So when you speak for yourself, consider me standing with you, brother.

  • Wed Apr 15, 2009 9:59 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    "I find it hard to believe that people do not know of the Holy Spirit and Satan."

    Simple... people don't want to be accountable. The thought is that if they deny the existance of Satan and the Holy Spirit that they deny their responsibility to be accountable for their own soul. They can live how they want. It's nothing more than denial....

  • Wed Apr 15, 2009 9:34 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Part 2: Anyone who denies the power of Satan must not look around at their lives or the lives of others. Have you never been tempted to do something that would compromise who you are or your relationship with others? Have you never found yourself in darkness, struggling to find God and doubting that he exists anymore? I certainly have, and I know that is Satan. Again, Satan is not a physical being, that is trivializing to the unfortunate power of Satan on earth. Satan certainly is a spirit, but one who God promises trembles at his Holy name and cowers in darkness. The first step in overcoming Satan's power is admitting that he DOES exist, in YOUR life, and that you alone are powerless to stop him.

    And then it remains: faith, hope, and love...but the greatest of these, is LOVE!

    God Bless,
    Pastor Nick

  • Wed Apr 15, 2009 9:31 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    Good morning all,
    I find it hard to believe that people do not know of the Holy Spirit and Satan. I think the problem is many people do not necessarily grasp the teaching of the Trinity. In the human mind, it is easy to think of the Trinity as being 3 PHYSICALLY different people. I find my understanding is best when I try to think of God as an essence more than a person (stick with me here.) Jesus was God incarnate, so he was fully human, but also fully God. The Spirit of God is God's presence in our lives and on the earth although it is not taking physical form like God did through Jesus. Trying to grasp the wonder of the Trinity is not possible if we confine all three "persons" to looking like people, if that makes sense. I think people know the image of Jesus, tend to imagine God the Father as Zeus, and then the Holy Spirit is left out there floating (yes, pun intended.)

  • Wed Apr 15, 2009 8:35 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    viking, can't answer for mathetes but yes the writer of the Gospel and Books of John and the Book of the Revelation are one in the same.

  • Wed Apr 15, 2009 8:33 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    tp, considering it is taught in the Old and New Testament alike, but then again based on your posts it appears you are either an atheist or an agnostic so I'm sure you'll more than likely ignore any truths taught in the Word of God. But whether you choose to believe it or not the Trinity is indeed a reality as are satan and of course the Holy Spirit.

  • Wed Apr 15, 2009 6:51 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Hi Mathetes,
    You posted
    My reading show that 4 main collections existed by 100 A.D. = the Synoptic Gospels (Matt, Mk, Lk); Acts + the general epistles; letters of Paul with Hebrews; and the writings of John (gospel, 3 letters + Rev).

    I am a little confused. Are you suggesting that the author of John the gospel and the author of Revelations were the same person?

  • Wed Apr 15, 2009 5:57 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    believer, Yes, when I teach 5th and 6th grade we get into discussion of what it would be like to have Jesus as a sibling. But I do not think there is anything in the New Testament to suggest that belief in the Person of the Holy Spirit (as separate and distinct within the Godhead, is necessary for salvation)

  • Wed Apr 15, 2009 5:02 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    MickeyC
    you have said...
    "However the concept of the Trinity was not accepted or acknowledged by the church until the 3rd century. The word "Trinity" does not appear in the Bible though the conception is there both implicitly and explicitly. Actually the Council of Nicea in 325 defined the concept as we know it for the first time."

    The Trinity is not a concept....it is a reality. You may wish to study up on the Hebrew language which is the core language that makes up the writings of the Old Covenant.

    Christ himself reaffirms this.
    The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit is the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Job.

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