Updated 11:59 pm.EST, Fri November 20, 2009

World|Thu, Apr. 16 2009 11:46 AM EDT

Christian Billionaire Builds First Biblically-Sized Noah's Ark

By Jennifer Riley|Christian Post Reporter

An evangelical Chinese billionaire and his two billionaire brothers are behind a massive project of building the world’s first biblically proportioned Noah’s ark.

The Wall Street Journal reports that the Kwok brothers, heirs to Hong Kong’s largest real estate developer Sun Hung Kai Properties, has built the 450-foot-long ark/luxury hotel complete with 67 pairs of fiberglass animals to draw visitors from beyond the city’s limit.

Middle brother Thomas Kwok, an evangelical Christian, is the main champion of the project that has been in discussion for 17 years. The ark is inspired by his Christian faith, but will not be promoted in an overtly religious manner.

Instead, the message being promoted is that the financial storm will soon be over and new life, represented by the animals emerging from the ark, will soon be opened up.

But despite avoiding an obvious religious message, the ark - the foundation of which was laid in 2004 - was developed in partnership with five Christian organizations.

The Hong Kong ark is made of concrete and glass fiber and includes a restaurant, exhibition hall, children’s museum, and the main Noah’s Resort hotel. Builders had tried to construct a permanent rainbow through light refraction, but the science proved too hard. So far, no ark replicas in the world have successfully built a rainbow.

Previously built arks include one in the Netherlands that could float on water and contained real animals. But the Netherlands ark was about one-fifth the size of the biblical ark. Another ark was built by Greenpeace in 2007 on Turkey’s Mount Ararat that was intended to be a warning of impending disaster from climate change.

Thomas Kwok had previously mixed his business and Christian faith when he set up a church on the 75th floor of the Sun Hung Kai’s Central Plaza office in the 1990s.

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  • Mon Apr 27, 2009 1:43 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    To find more exact details on how the Noah's Ark in Hong Kong are operating, please check out these articles on The Gospel Herald:

    http://www.gospelherald.net/article/ministries/44849/ma-wan-noahs-ark-to-be-new-tourist-attraction.htm

    http://www.gospelherald.net/article/asia/44279/construction-of-noah-s-ark-ma-wan-park-complete-by-year-end.htm

  • Wed Apr 22, 2009 8:39 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    hohnson, much of what you address is because of the old covenant versus the new covenant and much of what Jesus did was not do away with the requirments of the old covenant but clarify those teachings and show mainly the religious leaders where they were wrong on their interpretation and misleading the Jews as a result. Plus, many of the requirments were related to sacrificing and once Jesus went to the Cross sacrifices were no longer needed as well as all the other requirments associated with sacrificing.

  • Wed Apr 22, 2009 6:44 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

    I've kind of done this before but nobody ever gives a coherent or satisfactory answer. If everything in the Old Testament is "inerrant" than why does it say that it's horrible to eat all kinds of different things and then Jesus says that none of that matters? I read the Bible and my brain figures out all the little symbols we call "words" and then I have an understanding. So when I read these contradictory items, I can only come to three possible conclusions:

    1) The Old Testament has incorrect things

    2) God is not sure about what is important and changes his mind

    3) The Gospels have incorrect things and/or Jesus didn't know what he was talking about.

    I don't accept 2 or 3 and so I have come to the conclusion that 1 is the correct conclusion.

  • Wed Apr 22, 2009 4:05 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Belhaven,

    I'm sorry I didn't get back to you as planned; it's a busy, busy day. But I did want to say two things.

    First, I think you bring up some good points; some I will have to think about, some I'll need to research before I can answer. Thanks for your thoughtful response. I look forward to talking more with you in the future.

    Second, and more importantly, in my rush to get out the door I forgot to tell you how sorry I am someone on this forum threatened you. I don't know what that person said, but I hope you will accept my apology on his/her behalf; such conduct is not befitting a follower of Christ. Christ warned people against rejecting Him or the Holy Spirit, but He never threatened them.

  • Wed Apr 22, 2009 12:31 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    "...heat it would kill all life on Earth, thats why AIG have dropped that one." -Steve20

    What does that lousy company have to do with science???

    :D

    Enjoy your wonderful spring weather across the pond.

  • Wed Apr 22, 2009 9:18 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 2

    jj, to your last post I say :p!! Seriously, though I hope I never lose the ability to think and trust like a child and to be honest because of circumstances I went through as a child it's hard for me to do at times and I believe as a result it's hindered my ability to wholeheartedly trust God in certain areas of my life and limited how much God can do in and through me as a result.

  • Wed Apr 22, 2009 8:32 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    believer: I'm not a child anymore so I guess my punishment for making it to adulthood is eternal damnation! :) Sorry, couldn't resist.

  • Wed Apr 22, 2009 2:34 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Mathetes,

    Regarding my screen name:

    No worries. You weren't prying, you were just curious.

  • Tue Apr 21, 2009 10:36 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    As Jesus said in Matthew (new revised billionaires version) "for I was hungry, sick, naked, and in prison and you failed to build an Ark as a restaurant and tourist attraction. Depart from me you evil doers."

  • Tue Apr 21, 2009 9:29 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    jj, plus the Bible says all one needs is the faith of a child to be saved and to enter the kingdom of God!

  • Tue Apr 21, 2009 9:27 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    jj, plus it's every Christian's responsibility to show both by God's Word and our Christ-like testimony how a person can come to the saving knowledge of Jesus Christ, but once again it is the Holy Spirit's role to convict and convince and the individual's responsibility to accept or to reject!

  • Tue Apr 21, 2009 9:24 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    jj, He does show, it's called the Word of God, but once again He can show a person truth till He's blue in the face, but it's ultimately up to a person to accept or to reject His truths as taught in His Word.

  • Tue Apr 21, 2009 9:11 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    believer: That seems pretty arbitrary if it's God's responsibility to show and he doesn't . . . doesn't that make him look bad? Eternity is a long time to burn for something he could have done pretty easily.

    mathetes: read the book as though you are not a believer and you'll see that cleary his books are very biased.

  • Tue Apr 21, 2009 8:16 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    belhaven, it's not any believer's responsibility or ability to convince but rather to simply proclaim the truths of God's Word, it is God's Holy Spirit's responsibility to both convict and convince people of God's truth's as taught in His Word and ultimately it is up to the person to agree or disagree, to accept or reject.

  • Tue Apr 21, 2009 5:38 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Only time for one comment - must make it to the post office before it closes.

    Belhaven, thanks for the compliment; I try to be. Before I met Jesus, I certainly was not; I had problems with alcohol, anger, and other vices. Jesus set me free from the alcohol overnight; He continues to help me work on the anger. I will send a longer answer in the morning. I certainly appreciate your desire to be anonymous and did not mean to pry. My wife's cousin went to that school; it was sad to hear about the trouble there last year.

    JJ, sorry I don't have more time to talk. I saw the film version of Strobel's books; neither he nor his wife were Christians when they married. Don't remember the whole bio; I'm sure it's available online.

    God bless you all.

  • Tue Apr 21, 2009 5:30 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Believer,

    Your last response to jj may have been different if you understood what circular reasoning means. Circular reasoning is not actually a type of reason. There is no reasoning in it. It is an argument that makes no point. It is meaningless nonsense.

    If you want to prove the statement "A" is true, a circular argument would be as follows:

    "A is true because B is true because A is true."

    This is not reason, it is simply insisting you are correct for no reason. You have proven nothing and made no point.


    Would you believe someone who says "the Koran is true because it is the word of god. I know this because it says so, and what it says is true because it is the word of god, etc..." ???

    The reasons you listed for believing in the bible are exactly the same, and just as meaningless. You should be aware of this when trying to convince an outsider. You sound exactly like a Muslim or Jew or Hindu saying their book is true because their book says it is and that their book is the inerrant, plenary, divine etc, etc..

    It is not convincing in the slightest to simply insist that you are right.

  • Tue Apr 21, 2009 4:15 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    jj, thanks for the compliment, I guess, but my point is when it comes to the Word of God I don't see anyway around circular reasoning as you define it and I don't see a problem with circular reasoning when it comes to the Word of God! Because all that is true about God and God's truths will always come back to the Word of God and His inerrant Word is His only record of truth, but if I'm not understanding what you mean by circular reasoning feel free to share what you mean.

  • Tue Apr 21, 2009 3:33 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    believer, I'm trying to talk down to you, but do you know what circular reasoning is? Do you understand that you are continuing to engage in it?

  • Tue Apr 21, 2009 2:12 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    jj, the Bible is the foundation and source of all real truth and specifically dealing with God's truths and all spiritual truth so of course all roads in these areas lead to the inerrant Word of God.

  • Tue Apr 21, 2009 1:43 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    lonestar: With all due respect, I'm not going to do that as when I have done that in past, it basically gave folks a "target to shoot at" and I'm not willing to get into that again. I will say that my conversion to Christianity happened while in high school and it lasted well into my adult years. My leaving Christianity was just as much of a journey as my entry. Both of those things were done with honesty and integrity.

  • Tue Apr 21, 2009 1:42 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    There is a lot of the Word of God I don't understand but instead of rejecting it I except it as truth and I go to God and ask Him what it means. It is the job of the Holy Ghost to teach you all things (John 14:26)and to guide you into all truth (John 16:13).

  • Tue Apr 21, 2009 1:36 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    jj, please, if you will, give your testimony on how you became a Christian and what percipitated your rejection of the claims of Christ that lead you to become an unbeliever.

  • Tue Apr 21, 2009 1:21 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Thanks for the comments, LoneStar but I am a former Christian and it's not as if I didn't "truly believe" or "know him." I believed with all my heart and soul. I used to read the Bible, etc but there was and is too much that didn't and doesn't make sense about Christianity.

  • Tue Apr 21, 2009 1:08 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    I know where you are coming from jj but you do not understand where a truly born-again Christian is coming from. Saying that the Word of God is truth because Jesus said it was (John 17:17) involves more than an intellectual acceprtance to what is said.

    Say what you want about Jesus Christ. I know Him. He is my redeemer and I know that my redeemer Jesus Christ liveth. Maybe one day you will know Him too.

  • Tue Apr 21, 2009 1:03 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    believer, you're still making circular claims . . .

    believer says: "The Bible is not one book but rather a collection of books recorded by a variety of writers with one thing in common they were all superintended in their writing by God's Holy Spirit."

    jjdiogenes says: "How do you know that their writing was superintended by God's Holy Spirit?

    believer: Because it says so in the Bible.

    jjdiogenes: Oh, I get it, the Bible is true because the Bible says it is.

    Do you see where I am coming from?

  • Tue Apr 21, 2009 12:22 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    jj, how is it circular thinking when as I said the Bible contains 66 separate books many of which were written years apart from the other and yet all the Messianic prophecies made in the Old Testament were fulfilled in Jesus Christ as well as other prophecies made in various books of the Bible. The Bible is not one book but rather a collection of books recorded by a variety of writers with one thing in common they were all superintended in their writing by God's Holy Spirit. Make the circular thinking claim all you want, but that does not change the fact that the Bible in its original autographs is the God-breathed, inerrant, plenary Word of God, literally God's Word.

  • Tue Apr 21, 2009 12:06 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    To all who are non-believers

    People who say that they are Christian and were truly born-again by the Spirit of God are not basing it on what someone says but on the revelation that God gave to their heart.

    When I became born-again God revealed to me that hell was real..., God was real, that I had sinned against God, and that my sin is what destroyed my life. Before this my mind was numb and cloudy. I didn't know if God was real or not, whether I had sinned or not, and certaintly didn't realize it was my sin that destroyed my life. God removed the blinders off my eyes to see. This is something a person who has never experienced it can understand.

    I responded to God in prayer and when I was faithful to my commitments to God, God changed my life. I have many experiences with God that validates who He says He is in His Word. There is more to experience.

    Christianity is not a philosophy as other religious and philosophical beliefs are. Intellectual assent to the teachings and practices of Christianity will not produce a Christian and will not confirm to the heart of a person that God is real and is who He says He is in His Word.

    One of the elements of becoming a Christian involves heart conviction. That is something only God can give. If you have never experienced it then you will not know what I am talking about.

  • Tue Apr 21, 2009 11:33 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Dontboxmein: Have you ever heard of the Hale Bop Comet Cult? What about Jonestown? Lot's of people will die for things they believe in but haven't seen (I'll grant you that many of those killed in Jonestown were not interested in dying but many were).

  • Tue Apr 21, 2009 11:31 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    believer, you're engaging in circular reasoning, IE, "the Bible is true because it says it is." Would you accept it if a muslim said the same thing? "The Koran is true because it says it is." I doubt it.

  • Tue Apr 21, 2009 11:27 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    I appreciate the honest questions of a commenter. I remember how I thought before I believed in the evidence that the lawyer (not scientist)Strobel writes about. I apologize for those who imply those who do not believe do not have a lick of sense. It's by God's revelation not our smarts that we come to faith. I haven't read Strobel's book, only perused it. I'm told that there are other books besides the Bible that record the history of Jesus' time. Josephus' works whose are now online, I think was one. I'd have to ask a few pastors about other documents. Here's evidence for Jesus' resurrection: the gigantic stone to the tomb was rolled away, probably placed there by more people than the 2 soldiers who guarded it. What eye witnesses would die for a lie? 10 of the 12 original disciples of Jesus were martyred, one - John was boiled in oil and lived to old age. I hope that helps some.

  • Tue Apr 21, 2009 11:16 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    jj, why would there need to be any other source since the Bible in its original autographs is the God-breathed, inerrant, plenary Word of God, literally God's Word. But at the same time there are numerous books that use His statements made in His Word to affirm what He said is true and reliable. Plus, Christ when He lived on this earth affirmed the words and claims of His Father. And if you think about it there are 66 books that affirm God is who He says He is and many of these books include eyewitness accounts. And books like Josephus support many teachings about God as found in the Word of God.

  • Tue Apr 21, 2009 9:21 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    mathetes, I've read The Case for Christ as well as The Case for Faith and I have to say that A) Strobel is not a journalist - at least not a good one. B) After reading them, I have a hard time believing that he went into the "exercise" not already believing. C) There is very little that is scientific about what Strobel did.

  • Tue Apr 21, 2009 9:11 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    believer, you said "the reason we believe the Bible is true not because we simply believe it's true but because God says it's true!"

    Where does god say the bible is true except in the bible? Are there other sources for god saying the bible is true besides the bible?

  • Tue Apr 21, 2009 8:42 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    steveh20, but let's not forget God's hand was upon this whole situation to the point He could have prevented the heat problem you cited if indeed that was a problem since once again we have no eyewitnesses who were on the outside of the Ark and able to see the whole process. A sunny, but somewhat cool day in Southeast Kentucky, today, hope you have a good day as well!

  • Tue Apr 21, 2009 8:38 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    rhi, no, the truth is God said it, that settles it, and if a person has a lick of sense they'll believe it. Did you ever think that Noah had a plan in place to deal with the "ahem residue". Plus, the only bad science is science that contradicts, violates, or supersedes the inerrant Word of God!

  • Tue Apr 21, 2009 4:50 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    God said it. I believe it. That absolves me from having to actually know what I am talking about. Putting faith and science into conflict creates bad science(at least in public schools)and holds religious faith up to ridicule. The story of Noah is beautiful so long as you don't have to deal with the actual, ahem, residue of all those animals in an enclosed space. Likewise, demanding belief in the historicity of Noah's Ark leave a foul smell in nostrils of those who use God's gift of a thinking mind.

  • Tue Apr 21, 2009 3:21 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Mathetes,

    Am I a student at Belhaven?

    You seem like a decent person, but I have been threatened with violence by others on this site for my views, and am reluctant to give out any information relating to my location. I use proxy IP addresses for the same reason.

    I think I've heard of this Strobel case before, but I didn't connect that name with the story. Did he compile this evidence that convinced him? I'd appreciate a book title if you have one. I have a sneaking suspicion that this evidence is more of the same sort already mentioned. Yes, there was a Soddom and Gemorrah. Many places and people from the Bible undoubtedly existed. There are a thousand things in the bible that would be included in any story of the time whether the story were true or not.

    I don't see what Troy and Thermopylae have to do with this. The historicity of many battle legends or their details are disputed and open to new information. No one claims divine rights for Greek historians, that they were inspired by the gods and therefore their word is truth.

    The enemies of Jesus did not deny his miracles? Sounds like a good addition to the plot, not evidence that it ever happened. How do you know Jesus had enemies who did not deny his miracles? Because the bible says so? Was the bible written by the enemies of Jesus?

    Your argument based on the imperfection of the Jesus legend is a new and interesting one for me. Thanks. The female witness point is interesting, but does not relate to the chain of evidence or belief. The first witnesses, Mary Magdelene et. al., were not especially responsible for spreading these stories, nor were the stories based on their testimony. The women are mentioned to place Jesus at the tomb. Most likely too many men knew the actual whereabouts of the disciples that night and so they couldn't say that they saw him first. Also, it is a woman's job to mourn at the gravesite, not a man's, right? Jesus is said to have appeared to many, most notably the disciples themselves, over a period of time. The story is not based on the testimony of women.

    The location of the tomb hardly seems relevant. I'm sure it was good and empty by the time any skeptics got a chance to inspect it. Again, we're relying on what was written fifteen years afterwards.

    If you are so sure that the story was too falsifiable to have escaped reasonable skepticism because the stories' claims are so specific, you might ask yourself why nothing was written down until almost a generation later. Paul may have written that many were still alive, etc., but they didn't write it, did they? Paul wrote it.

    I may indeed check out "The Case for Christ." I'm hoping that's where you got the female witness point. It's always good to throw some refreshments into the mix.

    Take care,
    B

  • Tue Apr 21, 2009 1:21 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Hi believer

    Yes I do of course take the approach of the Earth being billions of years old, it can be shown that mountain ranges have come as plates collide and gone as the weather erodes them to dust, ocean basins have opened and closed, continents have joined together to form super continents(Rodina etc..) and then broken apart to traverse the globe. Now the alternative is that God (whose existence I'm not questioning here) has made it so it just looks like that and that geological history never occured, can't argue against that.

    As for the water above the Earth, well the atmospheric column produces such pressure and heat it would kill all life on Earth, thats why AIG have dropped that one. And as I mentioned there is not enough water to cover the continental crust, even if it did come from below(what ever that might mean).

    Gonna be a lovely day in the south of England....

    Keep well

    Steve

  • Tue Apr 21, 2009 12:30 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    While these discussions are interesting doesn't anyone wonder if they are giving this much money to the poor of the world? What is the point of building an ark?

  • Mon Apr 20, 2009 4:44 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    steveh20, appreciate you sharing, but two things I see are that you approached this from the earth being millions if not billions of years old. And as far as the amount of water, the Bible says the waters came from both above and below and if that's not enough consider the fact that this flood was intentionally done by God who says of Himself that nothing is impossible for Him to do.

  • Mon Apr 20, 2009 4:17 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Oh, and a PS, Belhaven: in case you decide to question the NT accounts of Jesus, especially His resurrection, here are some things to think about.

    If you are going to fabricate a story of this importance, you would make sure all the witnesses were reliable, and you would make the facts vague so no one could check the accuracy of the story. In the gospels, the first people to see the risen Jesus were women. That would be a stupid move by the disciples if they were fabricating the story, because women were considered so unreliable, they were not allowed to testify in legal proceedings. Don't you think the disciples knew that? There's no reason to make the first witnesses women unless that is what happened.

    As for the other facts, if you are fabricating the story, why not bury Jesus in an unmarked tomb out in the Judean wilderness? That way, you can say He rose again and it will be hard for people to check the tomb for themselves. But in the gospels, Jesus is buried in the tomb of Joseph, a prestigious member of the Sanhedrin, who would be known to everyone and whose tomb was well-known and close to Jerusalem.

    Again, I could go on, but I hope you see the point by now. There's so much evidence for Jesus and His resurrection, the only explanation that makes sense of all the evidence is that He did indeed rise from the dead and show Himself to many witnesses. Paul wrote that many were still alive when he wrote his first letter to the Corinthian church, in essence saying if you don't believe it, you can go ask people who interacted with Jesus after His resurrection.

    I know I won't convince you on this forum, but I do hope you will check out The Case for Christ and perhaps The New Evidence that Demands a Verdict by Josh McDowell.

  • Mon Apr 20, 2009 4:05 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Belhaven, (Part 2):
    "If you assume that everything in the New Testament is true, then of course you come to the conclusion that Jesus is divine... because it says so. Assuming your conclusion is the most basic logical error, and one that a mathematician would have been embarrassed to make if he weren't blinded by faith."

    Strobel did not assume the NT was true, then set out to prove it. Like many others, he set out to DISPROVE it, but when confronted with the facts, realized it was true.
    Others have found other evidence that convinced them the NT was true: (1)the number of manuscripts and the length of time between the Christ event and the recording of it - on the basis of manuscripts, there's more evidence for the NT than for the Greek battles of Troy and Thermopolae; (2) the reaction of Jesus' enemies - they never denied Jesus did miracles, only that the source of His miracles could not be God; (3) the reaction of the disciples - they thought they would be crucified next, so only the resurrection can account for their transformation into courageous preachers of the good news.

    I could go on, but you get the idea. By the way, did you ever say if you are a student at Belhaven?

  • Mon Apr 20, 2009 3:51 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    Belhaven, thanks for your reply. I will gladly respond to what you wrote: (Part 1)
    "This is why all these elements were woven into the Jesus stories: to make them more impressive. There is no evidence that they actually happened."

    That would come as a shock to many historians. That Jesus lived and died in Israel is a historical fact beyond disputes, attested not by Christians alone, but by Jews and Romans as well. As you say, you cannot prove a miracle happened, but if all the facts are weighed, the evidence shows something happened, which is best explained by the resurrection of Jesus after being crucified. I would suggest you look at The Case for Christ by former atheist Lee Strobel; he interviewed numerous historians and scholars, gathered the facts, then weighed the evidence. Occam's razor points to the fact that Jesus rose from the dead, as He had predicted He would, and was witnessed by over 500 people over the course of 40 days.

  • Mon Apr 20, 2009 2:35 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    There was one other thing I left out, its just an observation, but there is not enough water to cover the Earth whilst there is continental crust as it sits much higher than oceanic crust due to its density.

  • Mon Apr 20, 2009 2:35 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    belhaven, the reason we believe the Bible is true not because we simply believe it's true but because God says it's true!

  • Mon Apr 20, 2009 2:32 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    Grace/Believer, hello.

    I'm not really sure that asking what the world would look like if there had been a world wide flood is the approach I take, I tend to take the, lets go and look at the world around us approach and see if we can come to any conclusions. Lets take my country, the UK.

    In a very simplfied form, north and south England(and major parts of Europe) where 550 million years ago apart but in the south pole region, they came together 450 Ma, forming the caladonian mountain chain, by the way the Appalacians are the American side of the chain but thats for another day. What we then get is the UK travelling from about 30 degrees south to where it is today. This results in various sedimentary rocks being deposited which record the enviroment they where formed in from lush tropical forests, through desserts and lovely tropical climates to today. Within we find life suitable to these enviroments and we reconise the actions of water in some of these enviroments, we also reconcise local flooding, because floods leave distinctive records in the rocks. So a quick history of the UK, I have not left a world wide flood out, its just not there.

    The same kind of story can be said for many others areas of continental crust around the world.

    So what do floods leave in the rocks. A good word would be chaos..Poor sorting of rocks, all signs of bioturbidation (burrows, animal trails etc..)wiped out,big creaturs at the bottom, small on top because they sink first as the water slows down, theres lot of signs and they are well reconised its an absolute car crash. So do we find these things on a local scale, of course.

    The chixilub impactor left a depostion of Iridium over the entire Earth at the KT boundary which can be followed. Large volcanic eruptions such as the one at Tonga 75000 years ago leave layers that can be traced over vast areas as they are transported by the atmosphere. A world wide flood should leave its own deposit across the entire Earth with the chaotic signs as mentioned earlier, we don't find it.

    I did not set out to show there was no world wide flood, and to be honest I don't expect anybody to be convinced but just to show that its only left out because its just not there and no other reason.

    Best wishes

    Steve

  • Mon Apr 20, 2009 12:43 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    Mathetes,

    This string has progressed past our conversation so I'm afraid this will be a little out of context now, but I felt compelled to address your appeal to authority in Peter Stoner.

    A general word of caution to begin with: throwing numbers at people can be a great pacifier, but eventually you'll throw numbers at a numbers guy. You can fool some of the people some of the time... I have a degree in mathematics. I have looked at some of the little factoids Mr. Stoner has come up with, and am not impressed. I will explain why so you can improve your arguments.

    First of all, I'm guessing that half of Jerusalem claims David as an ancestor. More important, however, is this: if what Mr. Stoner says is true (P1*P2*P3...= nearly impossible coincidence IF event occurs), then this is evidence against the New Testament, not for it. It begs my original point. People in the first century C.E. had a collection of prophesies they strongly wanted to believe. Many candidate messiahs have come and gone. These people were only going to be impressed by stories that include a bunch of little prophecy fulfillers, like the clothes gambling thing. This is why all these elements were woven into the Jesus stories: to make them more impressive. There is no evidence that they actually happened. Sure, there is evidence that Biblical places existed, but that is not what is in dispute. Someone who tells me they witnessed a miracle on a hilltop may be able to prove to me that the hilltop is there, and even that they were at that hilltop, but that is not evidence for what they claim to have seen.

    A high degree of improbability does not give evidence for the divinity of Jesus, it simply makes it much less likely that all these things actually happened. If you assume that everything in the New Testament is true, then of course you come to the conclusion that Jesus is divine... because it says so. Assuming your conclusion is the most basic logical error, and one that a mathematician would have been embarrassed to make if he weren't blinded by faith.

    The reason for believing the Bible is true always comes down to already believing it is true. Wishing something to be true does not make it so.

  • Mon Apr 20, 2009 11:41 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    steveh20, I'm glad I'm not the only one who didn't have a clue what that last post was all about.

  • Mon Apr 20, 2009 11:08 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    ?

  • Mon Apr 20, 2009 10:50 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Some years ago , the US Supreme Court delivered a ruling that could only come from wisdom and a genuine understanding of freedom and justice for all. They wrote : " At the heart of ;iberty is the right to define ones own concept of existence , of the meaning of the universe , and of the mystery of human life ."

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