PC(USA) Presbyteries Vote to Keep Fidelity, Chastity Requirement

danpat1_2000 »

Sat May 23, 2009 5:11 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

"The Scriptures, taken in context, nowhere declares that Peter was in authority over the other apostles, or over the Church (having primacy). See Acts 15:1-23; Galatians 2:1-14; and 1 Peter 5:1-5. Nor is it ever taught in Scripture that the bishop of Rome, or any other bishop, was to have primacy over the Church. Scripture does not even explicitly record Peter even being in Rome."

Need to check with your Protestant Theologians; they agree with the Catholic Theologians that the above is true. You can google them if you know how to use a computer.

Online4Him »

Mon Apr 27, 2009 6:49 pm Agree: 3   Disagree: 0

So, again, no pope, minister, or pastor is head of the Church . . . that position belongs to Jesus Christ and his representative is the HOLY SPIRIT . . .

But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you (John 14:26).

Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you (John 16:7).

Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come (John 16:13).

Online4Him »

Mon Apr 27, 2009 6:48 pm Agree: 3   Disagree: 0

msn,

(The Church is the foundation and bulwark of Truth)

The Body of Christ is made up of all believers in Jesus Christ; He alone is the supreme Head over the church, not a pope, minister or pastor. Individuals and churches have and can fall away from Christ . . . The (first church) and (one true church) is recorded in the New Testament. That is the church that all churches are to follow, emulate, and model themselves after. Alignment with Scriptural teaching, not apostolic succession, is the determining factor of the trueness of a church.

(You are Kepha and on this Kepha I will build MY CHURCH)

The Scriptures, taken in context, nowhere declares that Peter was in authority over the other apostles, or over the Church (having primacy). See Acts 15:1-23; Galatians 2:1-14; and 1 Peter 5:1-5. Nor is it ever taught in Scripture that the bishop of Rome, or any other bishop, was to have primacy over the Church. Scripture does not even explicitly record Peter even being in Rome.

(I shall give you the Keys of the Kingdom of Heaven and ANYTHING YOU BIND ON EARTH shall be bound in Heaven and ANYTHING you loose on Earth shall it be Loosed in Heaven)

Peter himself points us all to the true Shepherd and Overseer of the church, the Lord Jesus Christ (1 Peter 2:25). Peters authority was shared by the other apostles (Ephesians 2:19-20), and that the (loosing and binding) authority attributed to him was likewise shared by the local churches, not just their church leaders (see Matthew 18:15-19; 1 Corinthians 5:1-13; 2 Corinthians 13:10; Titus 2:15; 3:10-11).

(Peter, Tend my Sheep, Feed my Sheep)

Peter had denied the Lord three times and Jesus asked Peter if he loved him three times . . . we are witnessing the restoration of Peter to the ministry not an elevated position over his brethren. When Peter enquired of John, why did Jesus say, what is that to thee? Basically telling Peter that is was none of his business what was to become of John . . . if Peter held primacy why did Jesus say that?

(For my flesh is food indeed)

The Scriptures declares that the Lords Supper is a memorial to the body and blood of Christ (Luke 22:19; 1 Corinthians 11:24-25), not the actual consumption of His physical body and blood. The Scriptures says, that Jesus died (once for all) and does not need to be sacrificed again (Hebrews 10:10; 1 Peter 3:18). Hebrews 7:27 declares, (Unlike the other high priests, He (Jesus) does not need to offer sacrifices day after day, first for his own sins, and then for the sins of the people. He sacrificed for their sins ONCE for all when He offered Himself).

believer »

Mon Apr 27, 2009 5:29 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 0

ihs, the Interpreter is God's Holy Spirit who indwells every believer and illumines the heart and mind of any believer who will allow Him.

believer »

Mon Apr 27, 2009 5:27 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 0

chris, there is only one who is infallible and that is God, to include the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit and thre is only one resource that is infallible and that is the God-breathed, inerrant, plenary Word of God, all 66 books. Nor have any of us made the claim that we are infallible.

believer »

Mon Apr 27, 2009 5:25 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

chris, you do until it violate, contradicts, or supersedes catholic traditions that are not biblically based or catholic extra-biblical teachings.

msnchris70 »

Mon Apr 27, 2009 4:29 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 5

Amen Online, we Catholics agree with everything in scripture.

Can you agree with this scripture..?
"The Church is the foundation and bulwark of Truth"
"You are Kepha and on this Kepha I will build MY CHURCH"
"I shall give you the Keys of the Kingdom of Heaven and ANYTHING YOU BIND ON EARTH shall be bound in Heaven and ANYTHING you loose on Earth shall it be Loosed in Heaven"
"Peter, Tend my Sheep, Feed my Sheep"
"For my flesh is food indeed"
"This is my body"
"This is my blood"
"Unless you eat my flesh and drink my blood you have no life in you"


Do you accept all of scripture or just the parts that you think are good to use?

Online4Him »

Mon Apr 27, 2009 4:21 pm Agree: 5   Disagree: 1

For there is one God, and ONE mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; (1 Timothy 2:5).

Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and ONLY Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
Who ONLY hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen. (1 Timothy 6:15, 16).

For OTHER foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. (1 Corinthians 3:11).

Neither is there salvation in any OTHER: for there is NONE other NAME under heaven given among men, whereby we MUST be saved (Acts 4:12).

Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. NO ONE comes to the Father except through ME (John 14:6).

For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body (Ephesians 5:23).




Enough said . . . .

msnchris70 »

Mon Apr 27, 2009 3:28 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 5

IHS, well said brother!

Believer and most Protestant Pastors and members love being their own infallible Pope. Thinking that the Holy Spirit guides them in ALL Truth is fanciful at best with such interpretational divergence within their own church.

The fact is as a former Reformed Pastor of many years, the Holy Spirit leads Protestants in many ways and the Holy Spirit imparts goodness and grace to all who accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior. The Spirit of Truth and binding and loosing authority rests with the Church founded by Christ on the Apostles and that is the Catholic Church.

This is why we say as Catholics that Protestants do have much Truth, because what they acknoledge as Truth was given to them by the Catholic Church. Those things they reject or do not adhere to makes them wounded. The fullness of Christian Truth is found only in the Catholic Church with the Pope as the visible leader and Prime Minister of the Church to the People of God. Yes, Christ is the head of the Church, but His leader on earth is the Bishop of Rome.

IHS »

Mon Apr 27, 2009 3:21 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 3

God's Word is authoritative and Christ is the head of the Church, but it needs an interpreter as so many denominations disagree.

That official and biblical interpreter of God's holy Word is the Catholic Church with the Bishops in communion with the Pope.

All of our "Start up" churches have no authority by God and God's word does not itself give us authority, nor does it even give us the right to be starting a "Different" church from that which was started by Christ and administered by the Apostles. If we are outside the Church that the Apostles handed down power and authority, then we have no authority.

The bible is the Word of God and authoritative for all Christians, but just holding the bible in your hands does not give you authority to teach, discern or legislate. Only by the laying of hands is how Mathias received Apostolic authority replacing Judas. Only by the laying of hands by someone who has received Apostolic authority can convey that power and authority to future generations.

We evangelicals, baptists and pentecostals cut ourselves off from the Apostles and Apostolic authority through the laying of hands. We simply have no God given authority to discern truth.

IHS »

Mon Apr 27, 2009 3:12 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 4

Believer,

Yes, God is the head of the Church and His word is quite clear to you and I, but to others it is not as clear as seen evident by contrasting opinions. We need a final interpreter.

In the end, Christians need a "final" interpreter of this Holy Word and I have come to the recent understanding as an evangelical that we all do not have that "Gift" of the Spirit of Truth as promised in the bible to His Church nor do we have the "Keys" of binding and loosing authority.

Within my father and grandfather's association of evangelical churches, there is wide spread divergence on interpretation. This is not the "Spirit of Truth" in action is it when everyone else contradicts each other within the same association and "We" as evangelicals have no final arbitrator of Truth.

I now see that the promise made to Peter to be able to bind and loose in Christ name as our final arbitrator of Truth is now clear to me. All the bishops and Apostles received the Matt 18 binding and losing authority, but Peter's was special. Only Peter has the final say in Christ name as the person who hold the "Keys".

I'm sorry believer, but none of us evangelicals have the Keys of authority given by Christ and only the successors of Peter do.

The Word of God is Trustworthy and truthful, but no prophesy of scripture is open to personal interpretation and only the Church is the foundation and interpreter of Truth. The Scriptures belong to the Church, the scriptures are a product of the church inspired by God and therefore only the Church with God's authority can interpret and this Church is the Catholic Church.

artm »

Mon Apr 27, 2009 2:06 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 0

The final authority as it relates to the Genuine, New Testament Church is God and the Bible.

Christ is the head of the Church, Not a man, Not a denomination, and not a church board.

Christ is the head.

And please understand, " Not everyone who claims to be the church, " Is ".

Anyone, or anything, that does not accept Christ as the head, and final authority of the Church, is not the Church.

artm »

Mon Apr 27, 2009 2:00 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 0

There is no such thing as a " Biblical hierarchy." in the new testament Church.

Ephesians 4:11 declares, " and He "(Jesus ) gave some Apostles,and some Prophets,and some Evangelists, and some, Pastors and teachers."

That is God's divine order and plan for the new testament Church.

Nothing in their about a pope.

believer »

Mon Apr 27, 2009 1:47 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 0

ihs, we do have one person already, His name is God and if we would simply be wholeheartedly obedient to His inerrant Word many of these issues would be non-issues! Plus, looking at the track record of some former popes I'm not sure I'd put much creedance in what they have to say!

IHS »

Mon Apr 27, 2009 1:12 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 3

Unfortunately, it will continue to be up for a vote until the homosexuals win. The God fearing members of this church will tire and give up in time which is ashame. This is all because Presbyterians do not follow the bible's clear form of hierarchy. There is no one person to finally bind and loose something for good. They need Bishops and they need a Pope. This is another reason why so many Evangelicals like myself see the scriptures more clearly than ever before about the "Keys" being with the Pope. We need one person to make a decision final and this person must have the biblical and historical authority from God.

Whether homosexuality is moral or immoral is not up to a vote and whether an active homosexuals can serve as pastors should never be up for a vote either. Do you even know how rediculous this is that every few years there is another campaign to make actively gay pastors legitimate?

All sexual activity outside of marriage of a man to a woman is immoral.

abishag98 »

Mon Apr 27, 2009 9:14 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

Thanks artm! You may be right. Maybe ovidliving can clarify his position for us.

artm »

Mon Apr 27, 2009 7:57 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

Mine eyes have seen the Glory of the coming of the Lord, He is trampling out the vintage where the grapes of wrath are stored,

He is marching cross this Nation with a terrible swift sword," His Truth " is marching on. AMEN

believer »

Mon Apr 27, 2009 7:44 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

abi, I may be wrong, but I think ovi was referring to the movement away from the Word of God in the PCUSA and not the results of this vote.

njpresbyterian »

Mon Apr 27, 2009 7:43 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

If the gay groups really cared about the "peace, unity and purity" of the church, they would accept this latest decision as final and move onto advancing the mission of the church and saving the denomination from ruin. Unfortunately, this has never been about God's church but instead an attempt by the gays to use the church to validate their lifestyle. And I fear this isn't the last say on the matter. "It's not over until the gays win." And if it means destroying the PCUSA, oh well.

abishag98 »

Sun Apr 26, 2009 9:44 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 3

You're right, ovidliving, only by the works of Satan. Amen!

ovidliving »

Sun Apr 26, 2009 8:23 pm Agree: 4   Disagree: 0

The movement can be stopped. Amen.

abishag98 »

Sun Apr 26, 2009 7:17 pm Agree: 4   Disagree: 0

Kudos to the Presbyterians! They do some goofy things but this one they nailed right on the head. Thanks for staying the the Bible!