Updated 04:40 pm.EST, Sat November 21, 2009

Opinion|Sun, May. 03 2009 12:28 PM EDT

California Dreaming: Reasoned Debate on Gay Marriage

By Ken Connor|Christian Post Guest Columnist

Carrie Prejean's show of support for traditional marriage in the Miss USA Pageant has provoked a firestorm of controversy. Responding to judge Perez Hilton's politically charged question on whether other states should follow Vermont's lead in legalizing same-sex marriage, Prejean (Miss California) said that she was glad that Americans were able to choose, but that she was raised to believe that marriage should be between a man and a woman.

That response cost Miss California the Miss USA crown.

Hilton-a gay rights advocate-reacted with rage. In an online video, he called Prejean a "dumb b****" and said he would have "snatched that tiara off her head and run out the door" if she had won the crown. He later stated that she should have "left her politics and her religion out because Miss USA represents all Americans." No doubt, Miss Prejean would have been better off if she had invoked the "Fifth" and remained silent, rather than giving an honest answer to a politically-charged question.

Mr. Hilton's paroxysmal response to an honest answer to his question shows how difficult it is to have a thoughtful discussion about the subject of gay "marriage." Homosexual activists have said for years that all they want is "tolerance," but it has become increasingly clear that mere tolerance is not enough. They want their lifestyle to be endorsed by society and affirmed through civil law. And-as Miss Prejean can attest-they are anything but tolerant of those who have opposing points of view.

Demonization, not discussion, appears to be the modus operandi of the homosexual activist movement. Miss California is only the most recent example of what happens to a public figure who has the temerity to resist the gay agenda. Anita Bryant-another beauty queen-learned first hand the ugliness that results from taking a public stand against the gay agenda. So did Dr. Laura. Supporters of California's Proposition 8 are learning the same thing. Those who disagree with the radical homosexual agenda are demonized by their opponents for their belief. Advocates for traditional marriage are branded "intolerant," "discriminatory," or "homophobic." Their viewpoints are dismissed out of hand and deemed to be rooted in bigotry and prejudice against gays.

Homosexual activists have tried for years to define themselves by their practices. They argue that they are inherently gay and that their sexual impulses are dictated by their DNA. Since they have no choice in their sexual orientation, they maintain that their practices and relationships should receive society's seal of approval. Essentially, they argue: "If I desire X, then I must be an X-ist by definition and, therefore, no one has the right to deprive me of my pursuit of X." This argument does not withstand scrutiny. Lots of people are beset with impulses that they find difficult, if not impossible, to control. Pedophiles have overwhelming impulses to have sex with children, but that does not mean that we have to affirm their actions or legalize their behavior. Many a husband has succumbed to a strong sexual attraction toward a woman other than his wife, but the "irresistible impulse" plea rarely works with the spouse. Just ask John Edwards. The conflation of identity with impulse could be used to justify all sorts of illegal, undesirable, or immoral actions and relationships.

There are a number of cultural and social issues implicated in the civil affirmation of homosexual relationships as a valid form of marriage, not the least of which is that marriage is inextricably connected with family and society. From the beginning of time, men and women have come together in marriage and borne children as a result of their sexual union. Through the family unit, they have raised their children, protected them, taught them, transmitted their values to them, and prepared them for life in society. They have modeled gender roles and taught their children how to relate to members of their own sex as well as to the opposite sex. Society and culture has been promulgated-and can only be perpetuated-through the unique sexual dimensions of this heterosexual relationship. Continue »

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  • Dane »
    Fri May 29, 2009 4:23 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    ~Miss Hypocrite
    Carrie Prejean, the Miss California contestant, was correct about homosexuality! It is mortal filth
    and condemned by God's Word...but Prejean poses semi nude and topless EXPOSING HER
    BREASTS and revealing the bottom of her buttocks...then lied about it...and then she parades
    her body around in the Miss California Pageant EXPOSING HER PARTIAL BREASTS and
    buttocks in a sexual immoral swimsuit before the world!
    She is 100% a HYPOCRITE and she does NOT represent Jesus Christ nor a Christian!!
    Jesus said it this way, "Anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery
    with her in his heart. If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better
    for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into Hell." [Mt. 5:28,29]
    Spoken in 100% love
    Dane Muhlig
    El Cajon, CA
    victoryworldquest.com

  • Thu May 07, 2009 12:03 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 3

    believer,

    "ls, I think that we need to be careful to not confuse God's patience and long-suffering with His approval for man's behavior and especially when those behaviors woefully violate God's Word."

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    Amen. Even David lamented in his psalms about how frustrated that the evil were not being punished as he thought they should be. Everyone receives their reward eventually. I would pray that they would receive it here on earth in hopes that it would wake them up to their sin, so that they may turn before it's too late.

  • Wed May 06, 2009 10:44 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    ls, I think that we need to be careful to not confuse God's patience and long-suffering with His approval for man's behavior and especially when those behaviors woefully violate God's Word. Plus, God often time brings discipline slowly and then more firmly when we as His children continue to ignore that discipline.

  • Wed May 06, 2009 8:12 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Jehovahnissi:

    Let me see if I understand you correctly; what you are saying is that as Christians who are not of this world we are bound to follow the ways of God and not the ways of this world. I agree.

    You are also saying that a theocracy in this world is impossible because of the fallibility of mankind and the reality that we are not all followers of Christ. I agree with that as well.

    That will change and we will live in the perfect theocracy upon the return of Christ. Three for three here.

    I am not sure what your point of contention is. I am not attempting to argue the Biblical validity of gay relationships. I was attempting to discuss the issue of gay relationships as it pertains to our country and its laws apart from what God may or may not want for us as intimate human beings.

    If you are saying that Christians are morally obligated to fight gay marriage then I will respond accordingly but I am not sure so I ask before I take my full turn on the soapbox we share.

  • Wed May 06, 2009 7:56 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Believer:
    I understand your concern with God turning his face from this country. The Bible speaks often of His favor being given and then taken back from villages, cities, peoples and kingdoms as they part from His ways and instead embrace the ways of false gods and immoral practices.

    I do believe it was the influence of the Holy Spirit that gave the souls of men the desire to decide religion for themselves and to live free therefore birthing of our nation.

    I cannot assume however that slavery was ordained by God for us, but that God revealed His glory in our hearts slowly as we could handle the truth. I feel the same way about womens rights. I feel the same for childrens rights. All things that have manifested in our country in the last 100 years. Things that were not the case at the birth of our country or during its first 150 years or so. We are a developing work in progress, to hopefully someday be that peculiar people that God has wanted from the beginning to use as examples to the world.

    I seriously believe that God would favor us as Christains giving rights and protections to the strangers (not of Gods people) in our land simply because it is a merciful, loving and kind thing to do. The heart is in the right place. There is no malice or oppression in that answer. Alternately, when one uses God to condemn, oppress and judge someone they are in danger of hatred, bigotry, anger, malice, oppression and being dead wrong in Biblical meaning. We have done it many, many times as a people over the centuries since Christ died and I for one do not think we have any reason to believe we are any smarter now than we were 1500 years ago. It is the same book then as it is now. It was not all that long ago we were using scripture to validate slavery, wife and child beating, genocide, etc. I trust no person in the ways of God.

    We have had abortion rights in this country since Roe vs Wade. We have been giving homosexual rights since the 1960s. Pornography and prostitution have been legal in some areas of the country since the beginning and practiced and tolerated everywhere else in this country to this day. Either God has tolerated all these things or we never had his blessing in the first place.

  • Wed May 06, 2009 2:53 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    ls, I also agree with your view of domestic partnerships as well.

  • Wed May 06, 2009 2:52 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    ls, hopefully this won't gat flagged, but I totally agree with your view of marriage in the sight of God, but a major concern I have with same-sex marriage being the law of the land is from the national sin perspective, while God is indeed longsuffering and patient, He is also just and we as a nation will eventually reap the consequences of the sins of our nation to include abortion and same-sex marriage.

  • Wed May 06, 2009 2:48 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    ls, a Christian nation would not need to be a socialist nation, but rather a nation that is wholeheartedly obedient to God's Great Commandment so that God in turn can allow them to join Him in fulfilling His Great Commission. A nation where we realize it is not about us, but about Him and serving Him by serving others!

  • Wed May 06, 2009 2:46 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Believer: yes that is what I am advocating for. I believe it would offer financial and social benefits to the poor, disabled, dysfunctional and/or celibate members of our society.

    Blacksho89: Yes, I am a Christian. I do not identify as a gay Christian because I do not like the arrangement of those terms. Being Christian is far more important to me than being gay. So I prefer to refer to myself simply as a Christian. If the subject of my gender identity and orientation come up, I will discuss it then.

  • Wed May 06, 2009 2:40 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Before you make the whole, this is a Christian nation, argument I would like to point out that although there may be some truth to the fact that nearly all of our founding fathers were Christian. They were also so sick of the theocracy they came out of that they wanted to avoid that possibility for our nation at all costs. I will also point out that our Christian nation at its birth, the same one used in all these arguments against the separation of church and state, believed that the only people worthy enough to vote were male property owners and that a black man was not even a full person. Why would you cling to this argument when it is obvious that the idea of Christianity held by those men was tainted by bigotry and delusions of grandeur that allowed them to drive out the Native Americans (because only Christians have the right to earthly property) and own Africans as slaves?

    Final point: If we lived in a truly Christian nation, as in followers of Christ, then the following would be necessary laws; no one could charge interest on loans given (ursury), everyone would pool their resources to the common good of the church (which in Biblical speak is not a building but a group of people). Self defense would be illegal because Christ instructs us to turn the other cheek, instead of war we would give any enemy that demands anything from us twice as much as he demands of us, Jesus also preached against the accumulation of wealth which would mean anyone who had too much would be forced to dole it out to the community.

    We are not a Christian nation. We cannot serve both God and money. Capitalism is about money, not God. A true Christian nation would be a lot more like socialism than capitalism. Food stamps and welfare are Christ-like laws and yet their biggest opposition comes from the conservative religious right. They do not want their money spent on people who may not deserve it under their ideas. Jesus commanded that we give to the poor. He never made a distinction between those who are worthy or not. He did not ask us to first judge if this homeless and hungry person is doing what they can for themselves before you help them.

    A true Christian nation would be a socialist nation. This point alone nullifies the whole (Gods plan) argument out of the arena in respect to gay rights in America. No matter what our founding fathers intended, this is the reality of our nations belief system as dictated by our laws and governmental system.

    Honestly I believe it is an affront to God to even call America a Christian nation based on Christian values. If anything we are Romans and have a governmental system akin to Rome, not ancient Christianity. I for one do not want the world to look at our capitalistic system and think it is a representation of a Godly nation. It is far from it and therefore has no valid argument against gay rights.

  • Wed May 06, 2009 2:35 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    ls, hopefully you saw my post to you with regards to national sin before someone flagged it. But am I to take it you would be in favor of domestic partnership laws that would ensure any two consenting adults sharing the same household together the same legal rights and benefits as a married heterosexual couple?

  • Wed May 06, 2009 2:30 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Jehovahnissi »

    You posted an epic collection of verses which I think was your argument not only against continuing homosexual behavior but also to address why the government has every right to fashion and uphold such laws. If you believe that our governmental system should not separate church and state and you believe in a kind of theocratic governmental system then attempting to have a conversation about homosexual rights under the laws we have in our country is moot. You are arguing under the assumption that we have and should have a theocratic based legal system in which the laws of God are applied to all persons under the American flag.

    Although I did end the two posts with a question of what a sanctified marriage under God actually is, my primary argument admitted that we will never agree on the religious aspect. My argument is that our country holds to a belief system that all persons are treated equally under the law. That is the bottom line of what we ask. Honestly it would be the same as denying me health care or food assistance just because I am gay. It would be the same as when people were allowed to deny me an apartment simply because I am gay. Such things still happen all over the country. We are denied jobs, housing, social justiuce and even police protection in some places even today? Do you even know what Stonewall was about? The homosexuals who were at that bar got fed up with being beaten and raped by police squads when they were bored. They rose up and fought back. I am serious, in the 1960s we were hunted down and beaten by police. Just because we were having relationships in private with members of the same gender. This is the legacy we arise from.

    To complete this fight we began at Stonewall, we want equally rights and protections under the law. It is not about the word marriage. It is not about the Christian viewpoint of marriage. It is not about God. It is about what special recognition and benefits the government is giving to some people and refusing to others.

  • Wed May 06, 2009 1:47 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Flagged as inappropriate. show ls, you make some good points with regard to God ultimately being the One who sanctifies a marriage, but my concern is with regards to the sins of a nation and the consequences we reap as a result of those sins. Although God is longsuffering and patient, He is also just and will bring judgement to our nation for the sins of our nation such as abortion and same-sex marriage. So for me it is not only about for taking a stand in defending God's original and only design for marriage, but my concern for the sins of our nation and the consequences we will reap as a nation for those sins. hide

  • Wed May 06, 2009 1:17 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    lordshepard: I find myself in agreement with you, as far as Caesar is concerned. If Caesar (the State) offers the rights and responsibilities of a partnership, I do not see how those r&rs can be limited on the basis of presumed sexual activity. Why can't any two people of contractual age enter a partnership?

    However, I must tell you that, while you are correct in saying that God, not Caesar, sanctifies marriage, a church has nothing to do with it. God cares not for the ceremonies of men-He wants our hearts! Matthew 9:13 "I desire compassion, not sacrifice."

    You sound like a wonderful person. I want you for my sister! You do not say if you are Christian. If you are not, please pray to Jesus to come into your life!

  • Tue May 05, 2009 10:41 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    There is no point in arguing religion. We will never agree on that. Instead we should be in agreement that all American citizens should be treated equally under the law. If you are afraid of it redefining marriage for our society, take that language completely out of it on the legal level. Replace all occurrences of the word marriage in our state and federal laws with the words civil union. If there is a separation of church and state and marriage is a sacred religious institution ordained by God then it has no place in the legalese of our government anyway. If the wording under the law said nothing of marriage then it would once again be the domain of the church. They can choose who they wed and who they do not.

    We could add a bonus to this change in wording and take the sexual requirement out of the whole thing. Instead of the government recognizing sexual relationships under the law, the government should be recognizing nothing more than a financial/social commitment in which two people have agreed to pool their resources and face the world as a team. The resulting civil contracts afford each party protection of property, life and death decisions, children, etc. It offers tax breaks and health benefits. If we changed the concept under civic law then we could offer these same breaks and protections to elderly siblings or life-long friends or even catholic priests! It would give the average citizen the freedom to choose who it is they want making decisions for them, inheriting their property or receiving the health and death benefits offered by their company and/or the government.

    Maybe we can solve this problem by avoiding it altogether? Change the words and intent of the legal civil contract currently misnamed marriage and the argument would be over.

    Final point: God is the only one who can sanctify anything so to argue that allowing gays to marry under state and federal law ruins the sanctity of marriage assumes that it is the state and federal government that is sanctifying marriage in the first place. Which puts government above God. I have always believed that a marriage not performed in church and before God was not a sanctified marriage, was not a marriage approved and ordained by God. I was taught in church that a marriage not performed before God was as bad as not being married. I was taught that civil marriages are pagan and ungodly already. To refute this is to say that the marriage of Satanists are sanctified by God. That the marriage of Atheists are sanctified by God. That goddess-worshipping pagans are sanctified by God. Is that true? Are they sanctified simply because one is male and one is female or is a marriage sanctified by God when it is a marriage witnessed before God?

    Some tough questions here any takers?

  • Tue May 05, 2009 10:38 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Have to put my two cents in here. As a queer person I feel that if Perez did not want an honest answer then he should not have asked the question. As someone who would love to marry the same-sex partner of my choice someday, I believe what Perez Hilton did to that woman was cruel, heterophobic, immature and completely unreasonable. He asked the question. She gave an honest answer. What he did next was temporarily redefine the homosexual movement into nothing more than bitchy queer having a bad day and taking it out on an innocent woman in front of the whole world. He did the same kind of damage to our movement that Fred Phelps does to conservatism with his God hates fags routine at the funerals of American soldiers.

    Herein lies our problem. One moment we are swearing to the American community that we are your friends and neighbors, that we are just like you; the next moment you see a parade in which naked people dress and act obscenely as if they are trying to give the world the opposite impression. Our parades seem so much about shock value and sexual exploitation that it embarrasses me completely. I would never march down the street naked, especially with a peacock hat and a pink boa. It reaffirms the mistaken idea that we are fighting for the right to have sex with whom we wish. That is just silly. We already have the right to have sex with whom we wish and how we wish as the law stands now. All same-gender sex laws have been repealed.

    Our true movement, the one being fought by the non-radicals, is not about sex and it never was.
    If I were in a car accident tomorrow and ended up paralyzed from the neck down, unable to have intimate relations with anyone, I would still be queer. I would still want a female companion as my life partner. It is not about who is in your bed. It is about who is sitting across the dinner table from you. It is about whom you share your hopes and dreams with. It is about the relationship between two people that has nothing at all to do with sex. Honestly if that was all we wanted, was the ability to bed whom we choose, then the fight would already be over. We have that.

    What we want is the same legal recognition under state and federal law for our one-on-one relationships that straight people have. I do not want my mother having the legal right to come and take all my stuff from my partner of 10 years when I die because the state would not recognize my relationship. I do not want my father or sister or even aunts and cousins having more legal say in hospital matters, surviving children, homes and cars, etc than my wife of 10 years. It is grossly unfair and purposely ignores our fundamental right as Americans to live as free and protected by our countrys laws as my neighbor is. It is a blemish on the flag of my country.

  • Tue May 05, 2009 3:10 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    jb288; "Blacksho - I note you dodge my question about your own morality;"
    Actually, no, I didn't. You didn't ask about it. You implied that money was my idol, which is the point of the parable of the camel and the eye of the needle, and of the rich young ruler. Reading further, Jesus says that no man can get to Heaven-it is impossible! But with God all things are possible.
    I chose to ignore your attempted insult, for the sake of polite conversation. But, since you bring morality up-I'm a sinner. For all have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God.

    Is that a dodge?

    "I had hoped that you guys might be a little more open to calm, rational argument, but you persist in illogical reasoning and sloppy thought, which is clearly what you've been raised on so it's not your fault, though it does speak volumes about the US school system..."

    jb, I had hoped, too, that you came here because you wanted to hear the Word. Why else would one choose to hang out with Christians, if not to learn of the Lord? Sadly, you seem to be more interested in insulting us. But welcome, anyway. For God so loves the world that he is not willing that any should perish. And we will keep loving you, and keep telling you the Word.
    Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.

  • Mon May 04, 2009 8:11 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 0

    ...rachel, I'm focusing on that fact that you're making gays sound like we're all hate mongering foul mouthed nincompoops, and yes, that is going to get me going. Gay marriage is a big deal to me, but if it doesn't effect you and you claim that you don't care, why are you against it? So what if you think its sin? Raise your family the way I see fit, I'll raise mine, and I'll see you in Heaven someday.

  • Mon May 04, 2009 6:13 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 0

    Blacksho - I note you dodge my question about your own morality; no surprise there - we all know right-wing Christians think homosexuality is worse than poverty or war, after all. I've asked God into my life before, he wasn't interested, so if he wants me now, he can come and get me. Incidentally, if I were to repent, why on earth would I suddenly become a Christian, rather than a Sikh or Muslim? To my mind, if it's a choice like that, it's totally devalued and lacking in genuine worth. If it's genuine, I should have as much chance of becoming a Muslim as a Christian regardless of my upbringing - I don't think that's the case though, is it? I had hoped that you guys might be a little more open to calm, rational argument, but you persist in illogical reasoning and sloppy thought, which is clearly what you've been raised on so it's not your fault, though it does speak volumes about the US school system...

  • Mon May 04, 2009 5:32 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    Rachel, I have never heard a gay person say they're the only ones who are abused. To imply such is a blatant lie.

  • Mon May 04, 2009 5:09 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Crickey,there's no pulling the wool over your eyes prophet.

  • Mon May 04, 2009 4:40 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    You know what I find amusing about Perez Hilton? His lack of intelligence. He said about Prejean that she should have left "her politics and religion out...."

    Well, Perez should have done so with his questioning as well. That was, intentionally, a polictical/religious question intended to cause contreversy.

  • Mon May 04, 2009 4:09 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 0

    jb288: "...being clear and uncompromising about being gay."
    Well, we are clear and uncompromising on preaching the Word of God. The Word is eternal; your sexual predilections on Earth are a few short years. So don't you think it's a bit ridiculous to waste your time by coming into a forum where you KNOW you will be disagreed with, and telling us all we are wrong?
    We are concerned about your eternal soul, here. You say that that's a risk you are willing to take but really-if you are wrong about what you believe, wouldn't you want someone to tell you?

    Repent, and be baptized, and you will receive the Holy Spirit. Become one of our brothers. We want you to live forever in the new Jerusalem with us. But you can't get there unless you know the Son.

  • Mon May 04, 2009 3:58 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Hello Rachael

    Thank you for the question and my apologies about not being more specific. What I was agreeing about with Mike was knowing gays who are hate spewing etc...Now let me add something to that. I've no doubt that there are gays like that just as there are hetrosexuals in fact there are people from all walks of life who are like that, my experience is that they are in the minority and not representitive of the majority who on the whole just want to get on with their lives, not bothering anybody or be bothered. Thats why civil partnerships work so well in the UK because thats what happens. By the way for the record I disagree completely with Ms Prejean but also think Peres is a complete kn*b.

  • Mon May 04, 2009 3:51 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    Rachel - indeed, but I'm not sure how it can be presented positively; the solution for me is just to live my life as an openly gay man doing normal things and helping others as much as possible, but being clear and uncompromising about being gay. It has to be that way if we're to break down stereotypes and gain respect.

    Blacksho - it's a risk I'm willing to take! And I do hope you're busy discarding your worldly possessions so you'll fit through the eye of that needle...maybe ditch the computer???

  • Mon May 04, 2009 3:40 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    True Rachel, that shouldn't really have been aimed at you. You are among the tolerant ones; many Christians 'don't agree with' (as you put it) our very existence - which is a galling thing to have rammed down your throat. It's rather like me saying I don't agree with you being a woman - that I disapprove of that! That's what's so irritating.

  • Mon May 04, 2009 3:36 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 0

    jb: "Blacksho - Right, so it's necessary to believe in order to understand?"
    You are correct, although I suspect you are trying to be sarcastic.
    Faith comes through hearing, and understanding follows faith. Faith is belief. "Now, faith is the assurance of things hoped for; the conviction of things unseen." Hebrews 11:1
    If you have no faith, no belief, that God is real, then you cannot understand His Word.
    Look, you've already said that you don't believe a good portion of the Bible, so why are you trying to use Christian belief to prove your point?

    "Nope, I respect your Christianity, but my beliefs are valid too"
    To the world, yes. But not to God. In the grand scheme of things, only God's view is valid, and if you do not believe His word, you will never know His view.

    "What matters is not how we get our values, but whether we have any at all."
    Really? Do you really believe that? Because I can think of some "values" that neither you OR I would accept as tolerable.

    jb, and others, what you all don't seem to understand is that Christians are called to be citizens of the Kingdom of Heaven, not of the US of A. So all of your fist shaking about tolerance of your lifestyle matters not a bit! Do as you will here on Earth, but be aware that there is One who is Holy, One who is Truth, and you deny Him at your own risk.

  • Mon May 04, 2009 3:14 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Blacksho - Right, so it's necessary to believe in order to understand? That means that the process of becoming a Christian must precede understanding what Christianity is about? So you're conceding that when one becomes a Christian one is doing so on the basis of blind faith, rather than an understanding of what it is one's endorsing? Three cheers for rational thought!

    Nope, I respect your Christianity, but my beliefs are valid too. What matters is not how we get our values, but whether we have any at all. You think you need to believe in God to get them, I think we don't. But I have the same values, so that's plenty for me, ta!

  • Mon May 04, 2009 3:08 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Rachel - I've been making precisely that argument throughout. But you're the ones being selfish - we're just asking for what you already have. I simply cannot understand why the religious right devotes so much time and money to fighting a few measly rights for gays when Jesus cared far more about poverty and injustice. So just forget about it, let us have the same rights as you and start fighting poverty instead! I expect to hear you clamouring for higher taxes on the wealthy to fund the redistribution of wealth right now!!

  • Mon May 04, 2009 3:05 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    jb288: Well, then, I have to tell you that your world view is based on smoke. Your religion has no foundation in Truth, and frankly your opinion of what Jesus said carries no weight, as you have acknowledged. that you do not believe in Him as you have stated "God does not need objective existence."
    In other words, if you claim to understand the moral teaching of Jesus but you can't even say for sure that He exists, you are contradicting yourself. You have no business claiming to speak as a Christ-follower.
    Matthew 7:23-24 "And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:"

  • Mon May 04, 2009 3:00 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Flagged as inappropriate. show ib2888 You say that our stance on homosexuality is what leads to beats? Shame on you. This is why we oppose "hate crime" legislation. Because of bozos like you who say it's their fault that some thugs go around beating up on people. Should we say that when a fat kid gets beating that it's because the preacher preached that eating too much is gluttony? You're logic is profoundly irresponsible. hide

  • Mon May 04, 2009 2:54 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Rachel & Rolln - can you not see how your condemnation of gays, without a logical basis, leads inexorably towards those beatings, regardless of your own beliefs? When people believe things are wrong 'because it says so in the Bible' instead of on logical moral grounds, we breed an atmosphere of public debate in which it's ok to condemn a group of people not for what they DO, but for what they ARE - through no choice of their own. That is the root of these beatings, and that is why you have to share some of the blame.

  • Mon May 04, 2009 2:49 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    Rachel, you said gays are bitter. Simply not true. We are infuriated and frustrated beyond belief when people lie about us and try to tell us that our life experiences are invalid and wrong, as if they could possibly know.

  • Mon May 04, 2009 2:48 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    ib288-

    Any reasonable Christian knows very well that the "beating up" of outward affectionate gays is contrary to Christian principles. Jesus was beaten not the beater. Christians around the world are beaten daily for their belief in Christ. Christians, like Miss California, who stand up for their beliefs are mocked and rediculed - however, I find it peculiar that - as she takes the offense - she's gaining in the public opinion arena.

  • Mon May 04, 2009 2:43 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    Rachael, I'm not gay and I'd go along with what Mike said.

  • Mon May 04, 2009 2:42 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    Rolln: how nice of you to allow it! Am I allowed to kiss him in public too?! I'm not just talking verbal abuse, I'm not easily (or indeed ever) offended, but there aren't many places I could be confident that I wasn't going to get beaten up because I kissed a guy in the street. We need to tackle that - it's not good enough to say 'keep it indoors', that's like telling Black people to put chalk on their face if they don't want racist abuse.

  • Mon May 04, 2009 2:36 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Blacksho - those things may or may not be true, I'm not really bothered. They add fabric and a powerful narrative to the central purpose of religion - that is, the binding together of people around common values. I tend to the view that they are mere embroidery; but God does not need objective existence in order to have huge power, and that is the point. The moral teachings require the force of tradition, poetry, music, stories, in order to have resonance with us - and that's all to the good. But that doesn't mean they're necessarily true.

  • Mon May 04, 2009 2:35 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    mike- show me my blind-spot(s).

    ib288-
    If you walk down the street holding hands with your boyfriend, then you should not be abused. I agree with that, but it's unlikely in this day in age as it's an abnormality and like most abnormalities - you'll get the flack. Interracial marriages get the same flack and most don't view this as abnormal as long as it's not same-sex.

  • Mon May 04, 2009 2:23 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    jb288: I guess the best way to explain my question is to ask if you believe in the Trinity? Do you believe that God created ex nihilo? Is Christ Jesus wholly man and wholly God? Was He born of a virgin, was he crucified under Pilate, and did He die once, for all, for the forgiveness of sin? Was He resurrected as the firstfruits of the resurrection, and does He sit at the right hand of the Father?

  • Mon May 04, 2009 2:16 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    "Provide me some examples of my unChristlike manner, please."

    You don't speak to prostitutes and you never throw the moneychangers out of the temple...though my apologies if you have.
    ;-P

  • Mon May 04, 2009 2:11 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Rachel, I don't hate you, I just disagree with you - get over yourself! Actually, as a gay man I don't particularly want to marry and though I'd love to have kids I won't because it's not yet clear that there are no ill-effects for the kids from gay parenting. But I do want to be able to walk down the street holding my boyfriend's hand without being abused - is that so much to ask? Is that bitter and spiteful? I really don't think so.

    Blacksho - I believe that the essence of Biblical teaching is the Golden Rule, doing as you'd be done by, and the other moral teachings about selflessness, compassion, caring for others etc that Jesus gave us. Those are the valuable parts of the Bible, all else is padding.

  • Mon May 04, 2009 2:09 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 0

    Ya right! You know them quite well Rolln!

    Rachel, its unfortunate that you have that attitude about gays, because I don't know a single one who is bitter or hate spewing.

  • Mon May 04, 2009 1:55 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Mike -

    "You do not even attempt civility or anything remotely Christ like" is your claim.

    Provide me some examples of my unChristlike manner, please.

  • Mon May 04, 2009 1:52 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    jb288: "Chris - personally I don't believe the Biblical proscription of gay sex is anything more than a reflection of prevailing societal norms..."

    Before you go any farther, what other parts of the Bible do you disbelieve? Just so we can get a baseline, here, a starting point.

  • Mon May 04, 2009 1:45 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    Why are you lying? Is that how Christ would act? What do you expect me to say when you lie Rolln, that all is fine and dandy? Notice I have never said that to Believer, because although we strongly disagree, we remain civil towards each other. You do not even attempt civility or anything remotely Christ like, then you claim you have just anger. Baloney! You're unwilling to change you ways, yet you say I can change from being gay? Please man, you're lost on your journey and too arrogant to admit it.

  • Mon May 04, 2009 1:42 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Flagged as inappropriate. show rachel- don't worry about Mike. If anyone disagrees with anyone living a gay lifestyle, he always says that you're soooo un-Christlike. Yada yada - just more of the same gay gibberish. hide

  • Mon May 04, 2009 1:36 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 0

    I also have to say: It most certainly does sound like you have a problem being gay. Tell me: Do you think all gays spew hate, or do you allow the few who have been sensationalized like Perez Hilton or the few in the Prop 8 riots to define the entire community?

  • Mon May 04, 2009 1:35 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 0

    Rachel, what a pitiful way to view life, and how very unChristlike of you! Everyone is God's, everyone. Everyone can come to know God through their choosing. Have you ever considered that with your attitude, it is actually you who is spewing hate, and those whom you hate are merely spewing back because they're on the defense?

  • Mon May 04, 2009 1:35 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    And you got "zapped" for that? It must have been a mistake. I know that there are those that inadvertently flag when the go to put a "thumbs up or down". I'm venturing to say that this is the case.

  • Mon May 04, 2009 1:20 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    rachel-

    Please, repost what you said...I'd be curious! Quickly though, so it may go undetected:)

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