N.D. Lutherans Reject Proposal Allowing Openly Gay Clergy

By Lillian Kwon|Christian Post Reporter

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Evangelical Lutherans in the Eastern North Dakota Synod rejected a resolution that would allow non-celibate gay pastors.

Delegates at the synod's 22nd annual assembly in Grand Forks, N.D., voted 187-167 on Sunday to narrowly defeat the measure.

The Rev. Rebecca Miller expressed clear opposition to changing ELCA's ordination policy, which currently bans non-celibate gays and lesbians from ordination.

"Yes, we are all created by God, and of course we all are loved by God. At the same time, we are in bondage to sin and cannot free ourselves," Miller said, according to Grand Forks Herald.

"Our inner urges do not reveal what is right," she also noted, as reported by the local publication. "God’s word reveals what is right."

Delegates at the May 2-3 assembly also approved a proposal asking the assembly to adopt the recently released "Social Statement on Human Sexuality" which was drawn up by a task force in the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America to provide a biblically and theologically based view on sexuality.

Among other things, the statement recognizes that that there is neither a consensus nor an emerging one in the denomination on homosexuality. The statement acknowledges that there are some in the church who believe same-gender sexual behavior is sinful and contrary to biblical teaching and others who do not believe Scripture addresses sexual orientation and relationships as they experience today and support same-gender relationships when lived out with "lifelong and monogamous commitments."

The sexuality statement as well as recommendations on ministry policies the task force has put forward will be considered by the ELCA's Churchwide Assembly in August.

Conservatives are opposed to the panel's recommendations toward policy changes that include allowing individual congregations to choose whether to allow gays and lesbians in committed relationships to be ordained.

"We contend that the recommendations proposed in Report and Recommendations, which advocate same-gender unions and the ordination of non-celibate homosexual persons, have little biblical, historical, or traditional support," said the Revs. Dr. Scott Suskovic, Corinne Johnson, and Carol S. Hendrix who describe themselves as the "minority voice" on the 27-member task force.

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danpat1_2000 »

Wed May 27, 2009 3:03 pm Agree: 0 Disagree: 1

"dan, hope and praying your friend does well with her chemo!:)"

Thanks a lot Believer. Since I am off work with 2 in wheel chairs (wife temporary) her dad (permanent-he is 95 and 1/2, and a pistol), I don't see my Baptist friend to often but she called last night to say she is "getting by." God sends me many blessings and these 3 are a good start, none of these equal a son who is adhdod and wants to become a Buddist. God Bless
believer »

Mon May 25, 2009 2:51 pm Agree: 0 Disagree: 3

dan, hope and praying your friend does well with her chemo!:)
danpat1_2000 »

Mon May 25, 2009 1:39 am Agree: 0 Disagree: 0

This is a wondrful reparte. I shall save a lot of it. But I must get some sleep now. However, I still need all of your prayers for my Baptist girl friend who has just finished her first week of Chemo.

I did remind her in the words of Pope John Paul II "Do not be afraid." (because being a Christian she has already won)
danpat1_2000 »

Mon May 25, 2009 1:33 am Agree: 0 Disagree: 0

"RCC uses Christ as a front man giving mere lip service to belief and does not seek God in the flesh who desires personal fellowship and personal worship from His creation. And to Him only."

This gets even stranger since in the Mass after the bread and wine is changed to His Body and Blood (Transubstantiation [not Consubstantiation]) we eat His Flesh and drink His Blood as He has commanded at the Last Supper. {This is daily and the greatest miracle in the world today so no one is closer to Jesus than Catholics and Orthodox. (The Romans hunted down Catholics because of the rumor they heard that we were cannibals [basically we are but not like they thought])
St. Padre Pio said, "It is easier for the earth to exist without the sun than without the holy sacrifice of the Mass." {If anything makes me sadder for my Protestant brethan than them not being able to partake of Our Lord at this time it is this} Yet, I am also happy that some even on this time will shortly be able to please Jesus in this way. God Bless
danpat1_2000 »

Mon May 25, 2009 1:20 am Agree: 0 Disagree: 0

"I am not asking you to believe what I say, but to put Christ first and to read and know Scripture for yourself. It is not DelightntheLord who is right, but Christ and His Word..."

You need to pick up a Catholic Catechism; putting Christ first is what His Mass is all about (He performed the first one if you remember) [incidentally it is said several times daily]; and we wrote the Scripture without the help of Protestants because they did not come along for 1517 centuries; and we do not change Scripture because something is in there we do not like, e.g., Maccabees (on praying to the dead) No wonder you cannot find it anywhere in the Bible; or Tobit, and even when you add to the Bible (like in the King James) "for thine is the kingdom and the power and the glory." Jesus never said this-check the Douay Rheims for the correct Our Father that Jesus said in teaching us how to pray correctly.
danpat1_2000 »

Mon May 25, 2009 1:10 am Agree: 0 Disagree: 0

"example in Scripture of Christ praying to His mother, or to Jude, or His step-father, or to Anthony, so I'll follow the example of Scripture and pray directly to Him. "

Why would God (Christ) pray to his Mom, or...? They are subserviant to Him, i.e., by his very nature has all that He wants or needs. Nothing can be added or subtracted from Him. He does the correct thing as the second person of the Blessed Trinity to pray to the First person of the Blessed Trinity..

Scripture doesn't show Him eating a bunch of dates either, but He just may have. Not all truth rests in Scripture. Since He followed St Josephs' trade we don't see Him building a table, or a chair; yet, what else would a carpenter build. Or do you think He just sat there and sawed wood all day building nothing because it is not in Scripture?
danpat1_2000 »

Mon May 25, 2009 12:59 am Agree: 0 Disagree: 0

""If Mary is for us, who is against us?" --St. Antoninus.

Such delusion! Here is a good and true word instead:

"If God be for us, who can be against us?" (Ro 8:31.)"

You guys still need a course in Logic 101. These are ancillaries, not opposites, i.e. both premises are true, and Mary being human, God being divine, of course, places Mary always subservient to God.

PS: Even a course at a Community College might help.
danpat1_2000 »

Mon May 25, 2009 12:56 am Agree: 0 Disagree: 0

""If Mary is for us, who is against us?" --St. Antoninus.

Not a delusion at all. She adopted me at age 7; and saved my life at age 11. At that age I crawled out on the tree branch over a creek; the branch snapped; I fell in (out about 15-20 feet) and as I was going down for a third time (I did not learn to swim until aged 13) I cried out "Mary. Help me."
I looked over saw a beautiful Lady dressed in white; she smiled at me and the next thing I knew I was on shore. Scared, I ran all the way home 10 blocks. I had an Irish mother and all upset she asked what happened and I told her, she said,(toweling me down) "The Blessed Mother, huh. Well, the least She could have done was to have dried you off." Typical Irish - upset at my wetness not thinking that I should be dead.

No. St. Antoninus is right on. I could find you hundreds of these quotes from Saints, even stronger and from prominent Protestants like Martin Luther (his love for her is unyielding to anyone).

"For those who believe no explanation is necessary; for those who don't believe no explanation is possible."

"Oh, thou of little faith..."
Wilderness1 »

Sun May 24, 2009 8:09 pm Agree: 0 Disagree: 1

"If Mary is for us, who is against us?" --St. Antoninus.

Such delusion! Here is a good and true word instead:

"If God be for us, who can be against us?" (Ro 8:31.)
danpat1_2000 »

Sun May 24, 2009 12:25 am Agree: 0 Disagree: 2

"The Pope, Mary, the priesthood, tradition and dogma DO eclipse a simple relationship with Christ by putting all these things between man and God. RCC uses Christ as a front man giving mere lip service to belief and does not seek God in the flesh who desires personal fellowship and personal worship from His creation. And to Him only."

More heresy from Delight. Does Our Lady's letter sound like she uses Him as a "front man." She always points to Her Son, stood by Him with St John while everyelse fled.

Mary's letter to Messina (and does this sound like she does not put Her Son first)

"I Mary, Virgin, servant of God, very humble Mother of Jesus Christ, Son of God, the Almighty and Eternal, to all who are in Messina, health and benediction in Our Lord! You have learned by the ambassadors who have been sent to you. You received the gospel and you acknowledged that the Son of God has become man, and has suffered the passion and death for the salvation of the world, and that He is Christ and also the true Messiah. I beseech you to persevere, promising to you and all your posterity, to assist you in the presence of my Son."
Mary, Virgin, very humble servant of God
danpat1_2000 »

Sun May 24, 2009 12:05 am Agree: 0 Disagree: 0

"I have the Holy Spirit

and He leads me in all Truth...aparently you do not."

That's what they all say Delight. Here's one of the better know favorites of the Holy Spirit (according to Charles who makes the same claim as you)

Shows you how delusions begin.

" I started, 'In the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit ... 'â
danpat1_2000 »

Sat May 23, 2009 11:58 pm Agree: 0 Disagree: 0

"Jesus can talk to anyone He wants to because He's God."

So if Jesus is our example, the Person we are to emulate, we are not to follow Him in this one instance.

My, what an enigma? And since Jesus died for our sins and Ascended up to Heaven, we are not permitted to pray to Him anymore?

Double enigma? (I'll tell Him tonight of Delight's instruction.)
danpat1_2000 »

Sat May 23, 2009 11:51 pm Agree: 0 Disagree: 0

"Then how can you account for Jesus speaking to Elijah and Moses in Mk 9:4?

Elijah and Moses are both dead so why is Jesus Talking to them?

Good luck spinning that one!

Or how about in Luke 16:19-30 when a DEAD RICH MAN tries to intercede for his brothers? He's dead afterall, right?"

Good post-One earlier post even said people have no mouths in heaven.

I luv this site--really wild in beliefs. But this is why my Baptist girl friend said, "...all they'll do is Bible joust with you...and it does remind me of an old radio show called "Can You Top This?"
And why, while the Bible may be inerrant in and of itself, it is the "free interpretation" by every Delight that comes along," that's when the errors occur...ad infintum, too.
DelightntheLord »

Sat May 09, 2009 3:38 am Agree: 0 Disagree: 2

"how about in Luke 16:19-30 when a DEAD RICH MAN tries to intercede for his brothers?"

Take another gander at that Scripture, he asked to go but was told he could not. If his brothers did not listen to the prophets, why they would listen if someone rose from the dead?

That's the jist of the story...but you know, I haven't been taught by man.

Jesus can talk to anyone He wants to because He's God.
WE cannot pray to the dead, it is strictly forbidden in Scripture. Our worship is to God alone. Sorry, you're finding this so hard.

Blackshoe, right on Brother, keep running the race well.
Online4Him »

Sat May 09, 2009 1:05 am Agree: 0 Disagree: 2

Chas,

Any results for that question that I asked?
Online4Him »

Sat May 09, 2009 1:05 am Agree: 1 Disagree: 2

Is msnchris70 . . . Chas?
DelightntheLord »

Fri May 08, 2009 11:02 pm Agree: 0 Disagree: 1

Resorting to personal attacks, MSN Chris?

Your religion is no good if you do not love.

I don't need "theology" (man's teaching).

I have the Holy Spirit

and He leads me in all Truth...aparently you do not.
msnchris70 »

Fri May 08, 2009 8:44 pm Agree: 0 Disagree: 1

Blackshoe,

Then how can you account for Jesus speaking to Elijah and Moses in Mk 9:4?

Elijah and Moses are both dead so why is Jesus Talking to them?

Good luck spinning that one!

Or how about in Luke 16:19-30 when a DEAD RICH MAN tries to intercede for his brothers? He's dead afterall, right?

Enjoy!
msnchris70 »

Fri May 08, 2009 8:38 pm Agree: 0 Disagree: 1

DelightintheLord,

I did not say that ONLY the educated are saved and neither did CHAS, so thanks for misrepresenting what I said. You do it so well.

Two things I already know about you; you have not had any theological education, and you must be a woman because of the overarching emotional responses and your clear innability to follow debate patters with a rational approach. Woman generally have a tough time in debates because they tend to be emotional and lack the ability to give a rational response when they are passionate about something.

You do know that in a debate you must provide evidence, right? You do know that in a debate you must address the topic at hand and not jump around? You clearly didn't do that with Chas or Dan. You initially provided scriptures, but gave no proof texts to support your interpretation.

I can only conclude that you do not seek Truth, and therefore you do not seek the face of Christ since Christ is Truth. None of your responses were rational and nor did they follow the line of questioning, which is like having a conversation with a Schizophrenic on uppers.
Blacksho89 »

Fri May 08, 2009 6:30 pm Agree: 0 Disagree: 2

"Now these were more noble minded than those in Thessalonica, for they received the Word with great eagerness, examining the scriptures daily to see whether these things were so."

I've examined. Asking dead people to pray for you isn't in there. Well, Saul asked Samuel, but that didn't work out to well.
No, Christ is pretty specific when he teaches his disciples to pray, that we pray to our Father. There is no example in Scripture of Christ praying to His mother, or to Jude, or His step-father, or to Anthony, so I'll follow the example of Scripture and pray directly to Him.
DelightntheLord »

Fri May 08, 2009 4:35 pm Agree: 2 Disagree: 0

Dan,

I am not asking you to believe what I say, but to put Christ first and to read and know Scripture for yourself. It is not DelightntheLord who is right, but Christ and His Word..

The Pope, Mary, the priesthood, tradition and dogma DO eclipse a simple relationship with Christ by putting all these things between man and God. RCC uses Christ as a front man giving mere lip service to belief and does not seek God in the flesh who desires personal fellowship and personal worship from His creation. And to Him only.

There is no relationship when there is no direct communication; asking Mary to answer prayer instead of going to Christ Himself results in a relationship with Mary and not with Christ. Mary cannot save you, she needed to believe for her salvation, too, just like we do.

This is reasonable, think of it this way; what kind of relationship with your wife would you have if you asked your children to ask your wife for a clean shirt, a glass of water, a porkchop, etc.
Whose relationship is stronger...the one with your children or the one with your wife?
DelightntheLord »

Fri May 08, 2009 4:05 pm Agree: 4 Disagree: 0

MSN Chris,

According to you ONLY "educated" people get saved! And you think pridefully you are one.

"Knowledge puffs up, but love edifies."

I am not Star2, but I can bet you that she and I, as Protestants, agree on the essentials of doctrine. Include also with that, believer, Jehovahnissi, Prophet, Daniel Paul, Online, rolln and the new guy IacceptHim, even though we all go to different churches.

Chris, the only thing you "graduated" to is heresy.
DelightntheLord »

Fri May 08, 2009 3:55 pm Agree: 3 Disagree: 0

Chas,

I realized the futility of continuing a conversation with you for three reasons; first, you added to the Scripture that Christ is the Intercessor between man and God by limiting its application to the New Covenant only; by that you can justify a unbiblical priesthood and devotion to Mary and other dead saints.

Secondly, you ignore my proclaimation of (2 Timothy 3:16) which tells us Scripture is inerrant and is able to equip a man thoroughly for every good work; that verse alone discredits a man-made authority structure. You did not address it. Also not addressed; the promise of the Holy Spirit to every believer; John 14:17

"...the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you."

This verse contradicts RCC teaching which weakens the faithful and keeps him in bondage to church authority for all the 'answers'.

And lastly, all I get from you is a regurgation of RCC doctrine that I am painfully familiar with and could've googled. It is as if you are incapable of using your own words to express why you personally have faith and can only recite RCC history, tradition and dogma. I was hoping for a one to one conversation, not a recitation.

It is amazing to me that you take such offense that I point out that YOU MUST GO TO CHRIST ALONE and NOT that you must leave Catholicism. I wanted you to see that praying to the dead is in definance of Scripture (Is 8:19) and would hope you think for yourself WHY RCC is routing you away from Jesus Christ and pointing you to devotion Mary, contrary to Scripture. This is satanic practise and conforms to the spirit of anti christ. Sorry, but it is the truth.

As I said before, Catholics are quick to defend RCC dogma but do not confess Christ. This is a denial of Christ that you do not want to see. "If you deny me before men, I will deny you before my Father Who is in Heaven".

It says a lot that I point this out and you get upset with me. This shows me that you do not know Christ (if you did, you wouldn't take offense by my admonishment to put Him first) and it shows me you are blinded by a religious system based on elaborate tradition that defies saving faith as put forth in Scripture by God Himself.
msnchris70 »

Fri May 08, 2009 2:39 pm Agree: 0 Disagree: 7

Is DelightintheLord...STAR2???

Chas,

Great posts brother! What DelightintheLord did is standard fundamentalist practice. They start out nice and ask what seems to be genuine questions. Delight asked you MANY questions, not thinking you would handle them all like you did. Then once you have answered Delight, Delight responds with emotionally based opinions and rhetoric. Notice Delight used ZERO scripture?

Remember Chas that the vast majority of Evangelicals on this site put their own interpretation above TRUTH. They don't care about context, or what the earliest witnesses had to say at all about scripture. They also don't care about the Apostolic Ministry and the fact that the Apostles had authority over God's people. They also don't care if their interpretation has no historical foundation in the earliest Christian communities.

I Thank God everyday that I am now Catholic after being a Reformed Minister for many years. I loved being Evangelical because these are the people who introduced me to Christ and my personal relationship with him. Everything I learned as an Evangelical was a positive experience, but like many Protestant Pastors I had chosen to continue my studies and to my horror finding out that the earliest Christians were infact Catholics and nothing like Protestants.

The Earliest Christians were Catholic in everyway; Worship style, the use of scripture, hierarchy, how they prayed, how they assembled, the Eucharist, Confession, praying to the Saints in Heaven, praying for the Dead, Mary's honored place among Christians, etc, etc.

I do not feel like I converted to Catholicism, I feel like I graduated to Catholicism!
Chas »

Fri May 08, 2009 12:09 pm Agree: 0 Disagree: 5

Iaccepthim,

You would have had a real problem in the 1st century with your bible alone theory, because in the beginning as it is today in the Catholic Church the Apostles and their successor Bishops had authority over you.

The Apostles had God's authority, while the scriptures were authoritative. BIG DIFFERENCE! Yes, the bible is authoritative and useful for reproofing and building up a Christian for every good work and I say "AMEN" to that, but when this was said the NEW TESTAMENT WAS NOT WRITTEN. So, this claims too much since ALL CHRISTIANS know that the NEW TESTAMENT is just as inspired as the Old Testament.

Context would really help you, since it was talking about scripture from the OLD TESTAMENT. There was no "Cannon" of the New Testament at this time. The only way people were saved in the first few hundred years of Christianity was through the preaching of the Church. The Epistles and the Gospels as they were shared throughout the Catholic Church affirmed everything that was being preached by those with AUTHORITY.

Christ authority was given to specific men, not everyone. The priesthood of all believers does not negate the special authority within that Priesthood.

Just so you know Presbyter means elder, but the word Presbyter in its anglo form is Priest. We are all Priests, and some like the Bishop, Presbyter and deacon are called to a fuller expression of that universal priesthood.

In any church in the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 9th centuries you would owe your obediance to your local bishop, and you would have no right to interpret differently from that of the Bishop because it was the Bishop who had Christ authority passed down by the Apostles through the laying of hands, not you.

I realize that Protestants in general don't like people in authority over them, even if these people have God's authority. You would rather be your own authority, your own Pope but this is not biblical nor is it Christian.
Chas »

Fri May 08, 2009 11:56 am Agree: 0 Disagree: 1

DelightintheLord,

It is unfortunate that after my kind and charitable answering of your questions, which took many posts and time, that all you could do is slam our beliefs as a personal attack.

You did not offer scriptures in the same context to refute our beliefs, you did not show with scripture that our beliefs are contrary to scripture and you did not show any critical analysis of my posts.

Your last post was basically reduced down to, "I don't care what you say you guys are wrong and I am right!".
This was a waste of my time for someone who obviously will not apply Faith with Reason.

I can always recognize the person who has had absolutely no formal theological education, when their responses become more emotional and they lose their grip and forget to use scripture to defend their position.

I wish you well.
believer »

Fri May 08, 2009 10:21 am Agree: 1 Disagree: 2

dan, what I really appreciate about you is that your an honest catholic who admits to the teachings of the catholic church with regards to Mary and so on, I don't tend to agree with those teachings, but they were the ones I was raised with and when I share that with other catholic posters, they tell me I wasn't, so thanks for affirming to the fact I was indeed taught those things while I was growing up and in the catholic church.
IacceptHim »

Fri May 08, 2009 10:06 am Agree: 2 Disagree: 0

2 Tim 3_16 All Scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
3:17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.
I don't know about you but scripture is enough for me. If you say something regarding a relationship with the true and living God and the salvation He offers that doesn't match scripture I don't want or need to hear it.
danpat1_2000 »

Fri May 08, 2009 1:51 am Agree: 0 Disagree: 4

When one contiues to interpret falsely it reveals the weakness of any Sola Scriptura, and it is evident in hundreds of postings on this site. Martin Luther had a strong love of Mary and preached often of her virtues. And believe it or not he, being the first Protestant, would not recognize much of what is being said here. Pray to him and ask him (ouch!)
danpat1_2000 »

Fri May 08, 2009 1:46 am Agree: 0 Disagree: 2

The answer to why more of the Hail Mary was not said in the first centuries of the Church is right in your own post:
It was established by St. Dominic, the famous founder of the Order of Preachers; and he testifies in his writings that he acted under the direction of the Blessed Mother of God.
St Dominic was not 1200 years old?
danpat1_2000 »

Fri May 08, 2009 1:40 am Agree: 0 Disagree: 2

When I was 9 years old I crawled out on a tree branch and it cracked and I fell into a creek about 40 feet from shore, "I called out (since I had not learned to swim yet) Mary, please help me!" As I was going down for the 3rd time I looked over to shore and saw this beautiful lady all dressed in white and the next thing I knew I was on the shore. I looked over and she was gone. Running about 4 miles to my house, my Irish mom saw me and yanked me into the house and asked "How did you get all wet like this?" I said, "I fell into the creek and Our Lady saved me." Rubbing a towel all over me, she said in her Irish brogue, "She did huh? Well the least she could have done was to have dried you off." Never satisfied, that's the Irish for you.
danpat1_2000 »

Fri May 08, 2009 1:33 am Agree: 0 Disagree: 1

It serves no purpose to discuss RCC doctrine or even Scripture if you cannot see that Mary, the priesthood, the Pope and tradition have eclipsed the importance of a saving faith in Christ alone. All of this points TO Christ in Catholic doctrine. As posted above I do not think Delight is to be listened to in place of all of the early Church Fathers or for that fact the early Christina prayer books which describes the early Christian service which matches the Mass today (no Protestant Service is described by Shepard or any Christian text. After all they did not come to be until 1517.
danpat1_2000 »

Fri May 08, 2009 1:19 am Agree: 0 Disagree: 2

The problem with Protestantism is that the early Church Fathers would not recognize what they preach today. Re:
With regard to Mary's intercessory role on behalf of the members of the Body of Christ, St. Irenaeus remarked, "He who is devout to the Virgin Mother will certainly never be lost." St. Augustine addresses Mary, "Through you do the miserable obtain mercy, the ungracious grace, and the weak strength." St. Jerome wrote, "Mary not only comes to us when called, but even spontaneously advances to meet us." St. Basil the Great (379 A.D.), bishop of Caesarea, declared, "God has ordained that she should assist us in everything!" St. John Damascene prayed, "O Mother of God, if I place my confidence in you, I shall be saved. If I am under your protection, I have nothing to fear, for the fact of being your client is the possession of a certainty of salvation, which God grants only to those whom He intends to save." St. Ephraem beseeches Mary, "O Lady, cease not to watch over us; preserve and guard us under the wings of your compassion and mercy, for, after God, we have no hope but in you!" St. Fulgentius (533 A.D.), bishop of Ruspe, stated, "Mary is the ladder of heaven; for by Mary God descended from Heaven into the world, that by her men might ascend from earth to Heaven." Pope St. Leo the Great (461 A.D.) observed, "Mary is so endued with feelings of compassion, that she not only deserves to be called merciful, but even mercy itself."
DelightntheLord »

Thu May 07, 2009 10:09 pm Agree: 0 Disagree: 1

Chas,

The point is there is no Scriptural support for most of the doctrines of the RCC and in fact, RCC doctrine is in opposition to Scripture in the worst way. But the most grievous of this is the practice of praying to Mary (and saints) instead of directing our prayers and devotion to Christ alone, who is God.

Satan doesn't mind if you pray to the dead, or if you have religion and tradition, as long as you do not seek to pray and worship Christ alone.

The RCC has been quite effective in removing Jesus Christ as the center; from the everyday life of the faithful by denying the Holy Spirit as the power in the life of a believer and by pointing to Mary instead of Christ as intercessor between God and man, in defiance of Scripture.
If Mary could answer your prayer she would be in disobedience to what God has spoken in Isaiah 8:19; another defiance of Scripture.

Somehow I don't believe this will deter you from your entrenched practice and devotion to religious traditions in defiance of Scripture. It is my job as a servant of Christ to show you these things; I am not responsible for anything beyond that and prayer. The rest is up to God to draw you.

It serves no purpose to discuss RCC doctrine or even Scripture if you cannot see that Mary, the priesthood, the Pope and tradition have eclipsed the importance of a saving faith in Christ alone.
IacceptHim »

Thu May 07, 2009 9:38 pm Agree: 0 Disagree: 0

Chas yous state
"Why do you think Christ gave the Apostles the power to forgive sins if he didn't want them to use it? Was he just doing it for fun? John 20:22-23"
If you go one verse earlier John 20:19you will see it was the diciples assembled not only the Apostles thus giving all of us (diciples of Christ the power to forgive sin)the power to forgive sin.
as far as James 5:14-15 elders aren't priests Jesus did away with the system of priesthood as He is our High Priest look at Hebrews 3:1 4:14 and 6:20
IacceptHim »

Thu May 07, 2009 9:01 pm Agree: 1 Disagree: 0

Chas you state,
"and then you ask for forgiveness by Mercy you will be forgiven but there is still the Justice of God that must be accomplished and that is through pennance by paying for the broken window"
The "broken Window" of sin has been paid for by what Christ did on the cross
1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
When I accepted Jesus as my Lord and Saviour I went through a time of being convicted for sins I had committed in the past many I didn't know were sins until that time of conviction. At that time I agreed(confessed) that they were sins and was forgiven. At that time I was involved in the ongoing sin of drunkenness, I agreed that I was walking in sin (confessed) and prayed for The Lord to take that sin away, and I changed my ways away from drunkenness (repented) and I was forgiven of that sin by what Jesus did on the cross.
Wilderness1 »

Thu May 07, 2009 7:19 pm Agree: 1 Disagree: 0

"The Externals of the Catholic Church":

Who Gave Us the Rosary? The devotion takes its name from the Latin "rosarium," a garden of roses, or a wreath of the same beautiful and symbolic flowers; or, according to some, more directly from the title "Mystical Rose," given to Mary in her Litany. It was established by St. Dominic, the famous founder of the Order of Preachers; and he testifies in his writings that he acted under the direction of the Blessed Mother of God.

However, there are traces of somewhat similar methods of praying before his time, although they did not include any part of the Hail Mary, at least until about the twelfth century, when the first part of that beautiful prayer came into use.

It seems strange to us Catholics who recite it so frequently, to learn that for more than eleven centuries our forefathers in the faith knew nothing of the Hail Mary, and that the latter part of that prayer was not added until some centuries later. Therefore, when the Rosary was invented, it was composed of the Our Father and the first part of the Hail Mary only, repeated probably much as we use them at the present day. (End quote.)

It was an invention by one deceived or by one who was set to deceive.
Chas »

Thu May 07, 2009 6:03 pm Agree: 0 Disagree: 1

The Rosary is extremley Christ centric and scripturally based.

"Apostles Creed" Comes from the bible
"Our Father" Comes from the Bible
"Hail Mary" Comes from the Bible
The Angel declared in Luke's Gospel, "Hail, full of Grace the Lord is with you" Elizabeth said "blessed are you among Women" Luke 1:42And blessed is thy fruit of thy womb Jesus, Holy Mary(She is holy because of her relationship to God) Mother of God(declares the divinity and humanity of Christ in one person with two natures at the same time) Pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death AMEN. We always ask her to pray for us.

You begin each decade of the Rosary with the "Our Father" because of its Preeminance.
Here is what we meditate on while saying 10 Hail Mary's in a meditative way.
Joyful Mysteries:
Annunciation to Mary by Gabriel being the bearer of God
Visitation of Mary to Elizabeth where John jumped in her womb because of the proximity to the Lord in Mary's womb.
Birth of Jesus
Presentation in the Temple as an infant
Finding of Jesus teaching in the Temple as a young child

Luminous Mysteries:
Baptism of Jesus
Wedding feast of Cana
Proclamation of the Kingdom of God
Transfiguration of Jesus
Last Supper celebrated(Eucharist instituted)

Sorrowful Mysteries:
Agony of Christ in the garden
scourging of Jesus at the pillar
Crowning with Thorns
Carrying the Cross
Crucificsion and death of Jesus

Glorious Mysteries:
Resurrection of Jesus
Ascention of Jesus into Heaven
Coming of the Holy spirit
Assumption of Mary into Heaven
Coronation of Mary as a good and faithful servant.

We also say the Glory be, which affirms the Trinity. And we conclude the Rosary with asking Mary's intercession that we can be more like Christ, live like Christ and be transformed by this Rosary and our prayers to be Christlike.

The Rosary comes from Scripture.
Chas »

Thu May 07, 2009 5:48 pm Agree: 0 Disagree: 1

Protestantism is rife with Relativism where it is everyone can interpret the Bible independantly without a committment to the greater church and what the Church did before and everyone acts as their own law giver and preacher of truth and yet it is more like the Wild West and everyone having a gun and anarchy and division abounds.

Catholicism is solid and unmoveable, because Christ made Peter the Sheriff and calls all people to read the Holy Word of God in communion with Holy Mother Church. Individuals may read the bible and allow the Holy Spirit to guide them to be good Christians and to know and serve Christ, but individuals are not allowed to usurp the Church authority in the bible that God placed on the Apostles and their successors. Interpretation and the spirit of Truth belongs to the hierarchy of the Church.
Chas »

Thu May 07, 2009 5:42 pm Agree: 0 Disagree: 1

Iaccepthim,

Why do you think Christ gave the Apostles the power to forgive sins if he didn't want them to use it? Was he just doing it for fun? John 20:22-23

Why does scripture also attest to the "Prayers of the Presbyters(anglo-Priest)will forgive your sins if you have any" James 5:14-15

Seems pretty basic. I have yet to find a Protestant who can explain away the fact that Jesus clearly gave them this power, and the fact that all Christians unanimously went to Priests for confession in the 1st, 2nd and 3rd centuries without question.

So, scripture explicitly points to this "MINISTRY of Reconciliation" 2 Cor 5:17-20, power to forgive sins given by Christ, prayers of the priest forgives sin and all the historical data that shows how people asked God for forgiveness was through the local Priest or Bishop.
Chas »

Thu May 07, 2009 5:29 pm Agree: 0 Disagree: 1

Pennance doesn't mean punishment it means justice.

If you break a window with a baseball, and later realizing that you shouldn't have thrown the ball at the window, and then you ask for forgiveness by Mercy you will be forgiven but there is still the Justice of God that must be accomplished and that is through pennance by paying for the broken window. God's justice is provided to us as pennance so our heart truly transforms and helps us to conquer sin. Without justice, people make God's mercy Cheap and they recommit the same sins over and over.

If you sin, the offense is to God and to yourself or others. You ask for forgiveness for an offense, God forgives you. So, you are forgiven. Period. God demands justice with his mercy and this is God's way of changing your heart so that you will not commit the same offense.

When a protestant asks God contritely to forgive their sins, God forgives them with his Mercy by judging your heart, but without justice this person who has just sinned has a higher propensity to do it again because to a Protestant it doesn't matter how many times they ask for forgiveness. Since Protestant don't do acts of pennance, their hearts are rarely tranformed from that sin they committed.

When a Catholic asks God for forgiveness we are forgiven, and God through his grace, love and mercy gives us the justice so we will fully transform our hearts. Priests constantly give out praying as pennance and good works attached with those prayers. Prayers and good works helps invigorate a soul to do what is right and this is the whole point of God's justice.

Without pennance and God's justice we will not grow in holiness.

Protestants should want to live more holy lives and pennance helps this process, because it transforms your heart.
Chas »

Thu May 07, 2009 5:14 pm Agree: 0 Disagree: 1

DelightintheLord,

Thanks for your patience.

Yes, Christ alone is the mediator between Man and God to re-establish a new convenant with God's people and open the gates of Heaven so those that die in His Grace will be saved and go to Heaven.

The word Mediator and intercessor are very similar.

Mary's intercessory role is the same role, if I ask you to pray for me. Evangelicals ask their friends to pray for them constantly for different needs. I ask, why ask your friends when you can go straight to God? They say, "We ask our friends because of how Paul said we should pray for one another".

The word pray, in this case, means to ask a petition. We are not worshipping Mary we are making a petition to her to present to God, which is not different than asking a Saint on earth to pray for us.

Mary and all the Saints who died in the friendship of the Lord are alive and well in Heaven praising God. God is the God of the Living, not the dead in Christ. Physical death does not sepparate us from the Lord and those who have passed are more perfectly united in the Body of Christ, while we on earth are striving for that beatific glory.
Chas »

Thu May 07, 2009 5:07 pm Agree: 0 Disagree: 1

DelightintheLord,

Danpat is exactly right. It was EVE a woman who originally said "NO" to God, so God pre-ordained that it must be a woman who would say with free-will "YES". Mary's "YES" to God is an invitation to God to become incarnate. Her "YES" to God's will represents a "YES" from all of humanity to be saved.

As Adam's seed made us fall into original sin and death for all eternity, it is Christ in the Line of David who will conquer death and atone for our sins.

Mary's "YES" is much more important than you give credit to God. Both Eve initially and Mary were full of God's Grace, but one chose through her free-will to say "YES" and the other said "NO". Mary is the NEW EVE.

Peace.
DelightntheLord »

Thu May 07, 2009 2:29 pm Agree: 2 Disagree: 0

Dan is a product of RCC false teaching:

He says the most outrageous things;

>>"If He wasn't the fruit of Mary's womb He would not be here."

Jesus is God and is Eternal, so yes, He would be here, as He has always been.

>>"Jesus owes his existence to Mary and He knows that..."

Jesus the Eternal God "owes"?

>>"We can never honor her enough. Still honor and praise must be given to her in such a way as to injure neither Christ nor the Scriptures."

Speaking from both sides of mouth here; if Jesus "owes His existence" to Mary, how is that NOT placing her above Christ and "injuring" Christ?

>>"...Gospel of Jesus, e.g., the Agony in the Garden, the Scourging at the Pillar, the Crowning with Thorns, Carrying of the Cross, Cruxifixion."

This is NOT the Gospel! Not even close. It must be hard to figure Christ rose from the dead when all the statues in the Church show Him still hanging from the Cross. There is no Gospel without the Ressurrection! (which Dan omits several times on this post, even after being corrected.)

>>" and we obey humbly His word."
How can one "obey" what one does not know?

I'd like to believe that Dan is the exception to the rule for Catholicism in his complete lack of biblical knowledge; he can quote RCC leadership, cite RCC history, name saints and give lip service to Jesus Christ, but in actuality, he has no faith in God and relies on RCC affilation for his salvation. When someone places trust in an organization for his salvation over and above true and saving knowledge (and worship) of Jesus Christ the Word, the result becomes a hodge-podge of human philosophy and opinion and misplaced faith and loyalty that does not save but ends in Hell.

If one doesn't love the Truth, he will surely be decieved.

Surely, Chas, this is not an example for the Catholic promotion of a "deep relationship" with Christ. The fruit does not bear out your assertion.
danpat1_2000 »

Thu May 07, 2009 1:38 am Agree: 0 Disagree: 4

One's faith is not determined on whether one believes in Marion apparitions nor does the Catholic Church require one to believe them; I do believe in them, but some more than others; Lourdes has had so many doctors examine patients there and espoused many "as miracles" so I do believe strongly the Song of Bernadette. Dr. Alexis Carrel was a French government official who asked to travel to Lourdes (he was an athiest) to "expose" this fraud. You man like what he found and he has written about his experience there in "A Journey to Lourdes;" he won a Nobel Prize for Science (so he is no kook), and he converted to Catholicism upon his return. He said, "If you make a habit of prayer, your life will be profoundly altered." Agree.
danpat1_2000 »

Thu May 07, 2009 1:20 am Agree: 0 Disagree: 4

Veneration of Mary and the saints go all the way back to early Christianity. Martin Luther himself would be shocked that people even doubt Mary's esteem. From his sermons:The veneration of Mary is inscribed in the very depths of the human heart. (Sermon, September 1, 1522).

[She is the] highest woman and the noblest gem in Christianity after Christ . . . She is nobility, wisdom, and holiness personified. We can never honor her enough. Still honor and praise must be given to her in such a way as to injure neither Christ nor the Scriptures. (Sermon, Christmas, 1531).

No woman is like you. You are more than Eve or Sarah, blessed above all nobility, wisdom, and sanctity. (Sermon, Feast of the Visitation, 1537).
danpat1_2000 »

Thu May 07, 2009 1:08 am Agree: 0 Disagree: 4

Chas you do handle the Faith very well. I think they get confused by the term "Pope" (Italian "Papa, head,") it does not matter what one calls it, but it does help to be "unique." He could just as well have been called "CEO," (but there are many of them) As to why we need one you would have to ask Jesus since He is the one who created Peter as the head of His Church, the same with anything--the Eucharist, because He said so, and we obey humbly His word.
danpat1_2000 »

Wed May 06, 2009 11:32 pm Agree: 0 Disagree: 4

Delight has never said a Rosary so he is missing what the Rosary really is -- "meditating" on the life of Our Saviour through our prayers (so He certainly knows that we are thinking of Him throughout the length of the Rosary (which is the Gospel itself [unless Protestants don't believe in the Gospel which my Protestant friends tell me they do]. An this is what pleases Jesus. Which reminds me I have to leave to say a Rosary.
danpat1_2000 »

Wed May 06, 2009 11:26 pm Agree: 0 Disagree: 4

Because of the first Bishops (priests) the Apostles wher empowered by Jesus to "Who sins you shall forgive they are for forgiven them; who sins you shall retain they are retained." The only possible way for this to be done would be for the "sins to be heard,i.e, confession..." which Saint Paul also comments on as they go about their day "confessing our sins to one another."
danpat1_2000 »

Wed May 06, 2009 11:22 pm Agree: 0 Disagree: 4

For people here who believe in the Bible but not in intercessary prayer I notice that you avoid the Wedding Feast at Cana where the Host went to Mary (not to Jesus), and then she went to Her beloved Son and said in all humility, "They have no wine." And He performed his first miracle in Scripture for her request.

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