Updated 04:40 pm.EST, Sat November 21, 2009

Opinion|Tue, May. 05 2009 09:05 AM EDT

The ELCA's Widening Chasm Over Homosexuality

By CP Guest Contributor|Rev. C.J. Conner

Bethlehem Lutheran Church in Saint Paul, Minnesota is a congregation of the more conservative Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod. It is not unusual these days to find families leaving the ELCA to join the church. However, a new member’s class at Bethlehem Lutheran is an unusual place to find young men from the ELCA’s Luther Seminary in Saint Paul. Pastor of the Church, Robert Krueger, says that he sees more ELCA students coming to his traditional and liturgical congregation. “They all have expressed a disappointment in the direction the ELCA is going, and its general disregard for the Bible as the Word of God.”

One of those seminary students, Barcon from Madagascar says, “The ELCA’s acceptance of practicing gay pastors and gay marriage would not happen in my region of the world. Even if the homosexual lifestyle is fully accepted by society, how can the Christian Church go against what is taught in the Bible? Even the un-churched know that this is not the teaching of God or of real Christianity.”

This doesn’t surprise Rev. Bill Sullivan, national service coordinator for Lutheran Congregations in Mission for Christ, a young denomination established primarily for Churches leaving the ELCA. “For some time now we have gotten a few calls a day from congregations planning to leave the ELCA, who want to research their options.” These are mostly congregations that are planning to leave regardless of the outcome of the sexuality vote and he hears often from seminarians planning to leave the ELCA too.

Another edit of the “Draft Social Statement on Human Sexuality” was prepared by the Task Force for ELCA Studies on Sexuality and was released in February, 2009. As anticipated, it recommends the full acceptance of practicing gay pastors and gay marriage in a call to “the love of God and neighbor.”

In disagreement, ELCA Theologian Dr. Carl Braaten wrote, “The summary of the law is love to God and neighbor. This summary, however, does not nullify the force of the individual laws and commandments of God. They are binding on the people of God, the church of Jesus Christ. “ Braaten expresses concern that foreign missionaries would be at risk for persecution, particularly in Muslim lands, if the ELCA goes forward with the recommendation to fully embrace homosexuality. He also says that such a move would put the ELCA in impaired fellowship with most of the world’s Christians. He chides such a unilateral move as arrogant, disregarding Christians in the rest of the world.

Outside of the official “dialogue” in the ELCA, there is a silent conversation happening nation-wide. It may very well be a conversation that is underestimated in influence because it is not well publicized.

In 2005 and again in March of 2009, the ELCA has had to re-structure in light of financial constraints, eliminating nearly 100 high level positions. These were actions taken in both time of economic expansion and recession. In 2009, 5.6 million dollars was trimmed from the mission budget, a radio ministry was eliminated, and significant cutbacks in hunger appeal funding were introduced. Most of the ELCA’s seminaries have also made significant cuts, as well as the ELCA publishing house Augsburg Fortress. The ELCA continues its “contingency budget planning” in preparation for the upcoming sexuality vote.

Since 2001, the ELCA reports a loss of 400,078 members. In 2007, on any given Sunday, only 28.9% of ELCA’s 4,709,956 members attend services. This is a steady annual drop in Church attendance, and leads many to theorize that the trends suggest the loss is far higher than the ELCA is able to quantify. Continue »

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  • Thu May 07, 2009 7:06 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 5

    My wife and I used to volunteer extensively with Special Olympics. I absolutely loved it. Those kids were great. Unfortunately, as my kids got older and their activities started taking precedence, we had to scale back our involvement. After 15 years, a lot of those kids (I call 'em kids even though most of them were adults, and some were older than me) still remember me and love seeing me again.

  • Thu May 07, 2009 7:00 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 5

    "Prophet, let me start by saying I really appreciate that we're having a reasonable conversation."

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    Me too.

  • Thu May 07, 2009 6:05 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Prophet, let me start by saying I really appreciate that we're having a reasonable conversation. I too believe that everything I do is a gift from God. It is a calling for me to work in an awful neighborhood and see children and parents so in need of mercy and assistance. It is a blessing that I have patience (although sometimes I wish I were blessed with just a bit more) to work with 5 and 6 year olds with special needs. That all being said, let me give you an example. When I was in high school I was on the swim team. My coach fostered a talent in doing the 100 yard butterfly in me, a stroke most people dreaded, but something I became good at. Through very, very hard work, I eventually made qualifying time for the state championship. Yes, God was there with me, but we also have free will. I was proud of myself for choosing to work my butt off, and I also gave thanks to God for the gifts he had blessed me with.

  • Thu May 07, 2009 5:39 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 2

    Mike,

    I develop work ethic by doing it for God, not myself.

  • Thu May 07, 2009 5:21 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 2

    "The love I have for my partner is exactly the same in every way as the love you have for your wife."

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~`

    I love people. And I want them to be happy. I don't like it when people get short changed and taken advantage of. I don't like it when people feel insuffeccient. But I will not trade the truth for a person's feelings. There are many things in my life that I feel "entitled to", that I go without because God has said in His Word that it is not so. As much as I want homosexuals to be happy, I cannot speak a lie to them and say that their love is the same. Because to do so, would excuse ALL sorts of love that even you find disgusting. There is only one romantic love that was designed by, and is acceptable to, God. The love between a man and a woman in marriage.

  • Thu May 07, 2009 5:14 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    "Prophet, that was the most foolish argument you've made to date."

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    I figured some people wouldn't understand the true nature of humility and a true relationship with God. Why should I feel proud? What have I done, that God doesn't give me the ability? Pontius Pilate told Jesus that he had the power to execute or excuse Jesus. He wasn't bragging or tooting his own horn. He wanted Jesus to go free and was giving Him a way out. Jesus said "No power is given to you that doesn't come from above." (paraphrased). I have the ability to drive a big rig. I give God all glory for that ability. I have the ability to write songs, play piano, and sing. I give God ALL the glory. True submission to God is giving EVERYTHING to Him, including my pride and boasting. If I do a task as to myself, I will fall so much shorter, than if I do a task as unto the Lord. For I know who I am, and am unworthy to boast of myself for I am a wretch. On my own is nothing but sin and death. But to God, who gives life and freedom, who does far above and exceedingly abundant in my life, to Him is the only one whom I give my boasting. I do not go to work withou making sure in my heart that I do it as unto the Lord, and through the Lord. He gave me breath. He gave me life. He can take it away. To Him alone is my boasting, not of my own unless I should be swayed to rely upon my own immoral self to make it.
    Those who glory in themselves and pride themselves in what THEY did place themselves upon the level as a god. But to them that humble and acknowledge that every good thing comes from the Father, they will find peace and freedom.

  • Thu May 07, 2009 4:00 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Prophet, that was the most foolish argument you've made to date. You can offer your accomplishments up to God, but of course you feel proud, and that kind of pride is perfectly normal to feel! Its how we develop work ethic. We complete a task, are given praise of some form, feel proud, and then you can certainly offer that up to God. If you get cocky, then there's a problem. The love I have for my partner is exactly the same in every way as the love you have for your wife.

  • Thu May 07, 2009 3:39 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    BTW, that was in response to the actual article...

  • Thu May 07, 2009 3:31 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Maybe the "82-year-old grandmother from California" needs to be put in charge.

  • Thu May 07, 2009 2:41 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    mike85, Hebrews 18:4, "Marriage is to be held in honor among all, and the marriage bed is to be undefiled; for fornicators and adulterers God will judge."

  • Thu May 07, 2009 1:41 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Mike,

    You are talking about two different kinds of pride. One may be good, though I never pride myself in what I do. If I have a great day at work, I do not glory in what I have done, but I give God glory for what He has done through me. That is a lesson you still have yet to learn.
    But there are two kinds of pride. One is good, and one is bad. There are two types of romantic love. One (heterosexuality) is good and one (homosexuality) is bad.
    Even "bad" pride doesn't sin against another. It is still a personal sin that comes between you and God. Just like homosexuality.

  • Thu May 07, 2009 1:02 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    Prophet, if you work your butt off on an intense grad class and ace it, is it wrong to feel pride in that instance? If your children graduate college and land a job of their dreams, is it wrong to feel proud of them? Of course not! Pride, like anger, has a time and a place. To be too proud will surely lead to your downfall. There is just anger, like that of Christ's in the temple, and there is unjust anger, like unloading on someone after a bad day.

  • Thu May 07, 2009 12:17 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    Let's have a bake-off between the 2 Pastors.

  • Thu May 07, 2009 12:16 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Both pride and homosexuality hurts God since He forbids it. Satan became Satan by the sin of pride "I will not serve." Look at the world now...a toilet about to be flushed. 40,000,000 dead of AIDs by 2040.

  • Thu May 07, 2009 11:59 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    "Prophet, pride is not a sin unless you take it too far."

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    Show me in the scripture where it says that.

    "When pride cometh, then cometh shame: but with the lowly is wisdom." Proverbs 11:2


    "Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall." Proverbs 16:18

    "A man's pride shall bring him low: but honour shall uphold the humble in spirit." Proverbs 29:23

    "For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness: all these evil things come from within, and defile the man." Mark 7:21-23

    "For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world." I John 2:16


    And on top of it, as I said, idolatry hurts no one, but it is still a sin. Just like homosexuality.

  • Thu May 07, 2009 11:13 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    Believer, tell me the verse that says it is.

  • Thu May 07, 2009 8:45 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    mike85, what Bible do you read that says sex outside of the marriage bed is not a sin?

  • Thu May 07, 2009 8:04 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Prophet, pride is not a sin unless you take it too far.

    believer, lust hurts us because devalues sex and can take away from our current relationships. As for sex outside of marriage, I think if its between two loving people, you're OK. I don't think its condemned in the Bible anymore than using a condom is.

  • Wed May 06, 2009 11:39 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    mike85, plus unsaved people will appear before the Great White Throne Judgement and be cast into hell for eternity where they will pay the penalty for all their sins to include those that hurt no one.

  • Wed May 06, 2009 11:36 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    mike85, you need to learn what sin is and what Christ died on the Cross for. All sin is an offense to God and it is sin that separates one from God. Christ died for all our sin past, present, and future and He paid the penalty for all our sins past, present, and future. As for sins that don't hurt others, how about all the sins of the mind such as lust. Or how about sins such as pre-marital sex between two consenting adults.

  • Wed May 06, 2009 11:22 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Mike,

    And do you know that worshipping idols hurts no one else either. So that must be okay.

  • Wed May 06, 2009 11:20 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Homosexuality, like pride, hurts no one...but you in your relationship with God.

  • Wed May 06, 2009 11:10 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    believer, think! Sins are sins because they somehow hurt us here on earth! What you said is not at all worldly! Sin is no more once we die, so to say something about hurting Jesus on the Cross is desperately grasping for straws. Name me one other sin that has absolutely no effect whatsoever in the physical sense, but that God simply decided was offensive.

  • Wed May 06, 2009 10:55 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    mike85, they hurt and offend God and Christ had to pay the penalty for them on the Cross!!

  • Wed May 06, 2009 8:01 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Funny, out of all the sins you named, homosexuality is the only one that hurts no one, which makes me think it must not be a sin (you interpreted wrong.)

  • Wed May 06, 2009 5:25 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    "Homophobia is a sin like lying, stealing and murder. God hates sin."


    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


    Homosexuality is a sin like drunkeness, adultery, and extortion. God hates sin.

  • Wed May 06, 2009 12:53 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    weshlovrcm: Where did you get your theology, that you believe that telling the truth (that the wages of sin is death)is a sin?
    Where did you get your degree in abnormal psychology, and how are you qualified to diagnose phobias on the internet?
    "Go, and sin no more"
    "If you love me, you will keep my commandments"-Jesus.

  • Wed May 06, 2009 11:18 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Pastor Tim, for one, please use periods in between sentences. Perez Hilton does not represent the gay community any more than Fred Phelps represents Christians. The studies about domestic violence and drug abuse come from unethically performed studies that have been torn apart but the major governing board for pschological licensure. To continue spouting "evidence" from those studies is to go on lying, which to me would seem like you are also driving a car the wrong way up that road.

  • Wed May 06, 2009 8:41 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 3

    WOW! Bccontz's story is the best thing I've ever seen conerning this issue of homosexuality/lesbianism and how the church needs to deal with it. In the secular world, we are seeing the true nature of the extreme radical element in the gay movement (Perez Hilton and Miss California!!!) and when you couple the rhetoric like Hilton's with the facts of death, drug use and domestic abuse within the gay community, we see a lifestyle that is not conducive to anything Biblical in nature. So, who does love the individual more: the one who says Go ahead and the one who says Do what you can to stay out of that lifestyle because it is dangerous and deadly? We are called to be honest..truthfully honest.....and that means sometimes, we have to tell folks that what they are doing is not good for them.

  • Wed May 06, 2009 8:32 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    I have studied the subject of homosexuality and the Bible for some years and it seems to me that the Bible does say that sex between men (homosexual activity) is wrong. However, I would suggest that the Bibleâ

  • Wed May 06, 2009 8:26 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

    Two men were sitting in the front seat of a car an two women were in the back and as they were driving along the road, they saw a sign that says, "One way, do not enter." They ignored the sign and continued on their way. A short time later they saw a man standing on the side of the road waving his arms, so they stopped.

    "Friends," he said, "this is a one way road and at the end of it is a steep cliff. You need to turn around."

    They began to laugh at him, so he pulled out a map and he said to them, "No really. This road ends and anyone who goes that way will be killed."

    They began to pull away and the man jumped in front of the car and they blew their horn at him a began to curse him. When they saw that he wouldn't budge, they ran over him and left him for dead.

    After that other men and women at various times did the same thing, and showed them the map and pointed to the signs, but they treated them the same way.

    The two couples got on the cell phones and called their lawyer who went to a judge. The judge, forgetting or ignoring the reason that the road was one way, ordered that the road be made a two way street.

    "But your honor," the opposing lawyer said, "this road ends with a cliff that will kill anyone that goes over it."

    The judge responded, "This case is about equal access for those who wish to go in that direction, not about geography."

    Sometime later on that same road, they continued to see the same signs, but drove on. They came to another man along the side of the road. He was well dressed and smiled and waved at them. There was a map behind him on a signpost. They smiled and waved back. The man said to them, "Jesus loves you, go your way in peace."

    Sometime later that night, the road ended suddenly. The two couples saw at the bottom the wreckage and blazing fire from other wrecks, but it was too late.

    Which of these people loved them more?

  • Wed May 06, 2009 8:13 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your mind, with all your soul and strength.

    If you do this, then you will not ask others to compromise their faith to accept and "bless" your sin. Nor will you seek to force acceptance of a sinful lifestyle on the Body of Christ. That the sin of a few eager to have their lifestyle blessed in spite of the Word, to the detriment of the Christ's bride The Church, is the selfish and disunifying act. After all, Homosexuality is hardly new, this was addressed in the early church.

    Sin is sin. We all sin. I don't ask the church to bless my sin. Nor do I ask the church to set aside creed and teaching so that I can continue to sin openly. I seek with Christ's help, to overcome my sin, and rest in the hope that through His sacrifice, my sins will be forgiven by our Holy and Loving God.

  • Wed May 06, 2009 5:48 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 4

    How sad that the sin of homophobia is more important to some than the unity of a church. Homophobia is a sin like lying, stealing and murder. God hates sin.

  • Tue May 05, 2009 4:06 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    "Jesus Christ, the Living Word" (ECLA's statement on The Bible) among the doctors!

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