Ministry: 'Hate Crimes' Law Will Fuel Hostility Toward Traditional Morality

viking »

Sat May 30, 2009 9:39 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

Hi Daniel Paul,
Maybe tolerance is the wrong word. But don't get me wrong tolerance is different than acceptance and it seems that until David got crazy re Uriah's wife that the bible does not indicate a condemnation of his polygamy per se.
That being said the OT contains as one of its major themes the constant falling away of Israel both as a nation and throug individual leaders (i.e. David) from the covenant with God and the restoring of that covenant following some earthly pennance (sometimes personal and sometimes national). So this is as I see it the real flaw in trying to use this or other such passages which note things like polygamy etc. by OT figures as somehow a justification for homosexual behavior as Mickey does. The error is in thinking that the bible is holding the OT "heroes" up as paragons of virtue. As I read the OT it is quite the contrary these figures are examples that none (even the great Moses, David, etc.) are without fault and acts as a 2000 year prelude to the NT message of salvation through grace.
Re that preacher's comment on the source of David's trouble it seems it was his lust rather than the women themselves that was his downfall.

Daniel Paul »

Sat May 30, 2009 1:13 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 2

"Firts David did not take Uriah as his wife (looks like a typo error) but rather took Uriah's wife as his. "

I hate typos!!!! Thanks. :D This is why those of us who did typesetting had proof readers....


"Regarding polygamy the passage in a way indicates at least a tolerance of polygamy in that God states he will take David's plural wives and give them to his singular neighbor."

I don't know that tolerance would be the right word. In Romans 1 God gave them over to various things. This was not tolerance of the behavior but rather a punishment. Just food for thought.

Just FYI, I heard a preacher preaching on King David and some of the problems he had. The preacher said, "if I had that many wives I'd have problems too!"

viking »

Fri May 29, 2009 10:25 pm Agree: 3   Disagree: 1

Hi Daniel Paul, first let me be clear my next comment is not a disput with you on the underlying issue of what the Bible states regarding homosexuality. Nor for certain is it in any way a defense of the unsupported and undocumented assertions of Mickey. That being said I think you mispoke in regards Samuel.

Firts David did not take Uriah as his wife (looks like a typo error) but rather took Uriah's wife as his. Secondly and more substantively I always understood that this and the related passages were not a condemnation of David's polygamy per se but rather of the evil acts (including sending Uriah to virtually certain death) that arose from his coveting of another's wife and his defiance of God's will in taking Uriah's wife as his own.

Regarding polygamy the passage in a way indicates at least a tolerance of polygamy in that God states he will take David's plural wives and give them to his singular neighbor.
"and I will take thy wives before thine eyes, and give [them] unto thy neighbour, and he shall lie with thy wives in the sight of this sun."
Understand I am not advocating plural marriage or homosexuality rather I am just pointing out I think you may have misspoken on this passage.

Daniel Paul »

Fri May 29, 2009 11:48 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 4

Mickey has posted that the Bible does not condemn homosexuality. I have posted this and have not gotten a response. Here it is again Mickey....

"Nope and the Bible never calls it sin."

The Bible never says it's sin to kill gay people. Never in the Bible will you find it written "killing gay people is sin". Does that mean it's OK? Does that mean it's not murder? Does that mean it's not sin? Your arguement to justify homosexuality can be used to justify the murder of any gay person. This is why I have such an issue with your arguement. It is short sited and not well thought out. Your position is that unless the Bible specifically uses the phrase that "(name of action) is sin" that it is OK to do.

The Bible never said "slavery is wrong". It does say:

1Ti 1:10 "whoremongers, sodomites, men-stealers, liars, perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that to sound doctrine is adverse,"

the word men-stealers is andrapodistes which means "one who unjustly reduces free men to slavery". Even still, those who suppported slavery in our country said they were "justly" reduced. The pro-slave agenda used the Bible the same way the pro-gay agenda does. It's still sin.

wrhalver »

Wed May 27, 2009 10:48 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 6

MickeyC

Remember me from last night?
I do not play games with my questions.

If you say you cannot be offended then you are saying that you a greater than Christ. It's in the Gospels and directly involves Christ.

We will chat again.

Tom »

Wed May 27, 2009 10:37 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 1

mick I will not go slug for slug with you. you do not know me or my love for all people, those who are walking with God and those who arn't. But I do know by your words that you seek to twist the word of God to say what you want and you do that without any, any scriptural backing.
While others have shown you chapter and verse over and over again. Verses that have been study and study for thousands of years all in agreement that the practice of homosexuality is a sin and like all sin is condemned by God. So what do you want to do about it? do you want to stay in rebellion against God and His commandments or do you wish to surrender your life to God by accepting Jesus as savior and following Him? The choice is up to you.period. Most of us believers here love ya but we do not accept your sin as justified and pleasing to God. We wish for you to repent and turn from your sin. Please hear what we are saying believe it or not it is out of love. Gods Blessing In Christ Tom

Daniel Paul »

Wed May 27, 2009 8:33 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 2

"Tom it is very sad to see that you don't care about others or even what the Bible says."

Sorry Micky...I couldn't understand what you posted for the massive echo from the emptiness of the words....

MickeyC »

Wed May 27, 2009 7:29 pm Agree: 3   Disagree: 1

Flagged as inappropriate. show "Please note that it is BECAUSE David took Uriah as his wife that God was not happy. If anything this verse speaks against having more than one wife. Again...having one wife is a full time job!!! ' Once again, just your opinion. The Verse says what it says and you can't spin it any other way. hide

MickeyC »

Wed May 27, 2009 7:28 pm Agree: 4   Disagree: 1

"You know the one thing that brings me great sadness is the hatred people like micky have for what God says in His word. To say that the Bible does not condemn homosexuality is the height of arrogance and deception. To say that the people who spent their entire lives studying Scripture inside and out, In the Greek and Hebrew as well are wrong is well just plain stupid, Sorry mick. You can not justify your gay lifestyle by what Scripture says and you can not justify your lifestyle by bringing up other issues. It does not work that way, I am sorry for the deception you have fallen under and pray that God will reveal Himself in a more dramatic way then the way He is here thru those who write on these posts. He is drawing you to Himself but you mick have to surrender yourself to Him so He then can start to change your heart and your mind. He is knocking at your door mic, will you answer Him. Gods Blessing In Christ Tom"

Tom it is very sad to see that you don't care about others or even what the Bible says. It proves that God is not in your heart or you life. While you can keep pretending that He is, your posts show differently. Come back to God, He will forgive you.

Tom »

Wed May 27, 2009 5:50 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 4

You know the one thing that brings me great sadness is the hatred people like micky have for what God says in His word. To say that the Bible does not condemn homosexuality is the height of arrogance and deception. To say that the people who spent their entire lives studying Scripture inside and out, In the Greek and Hebrew as well are wrong is well just plain stupid, Sorry mick. You can not justify your gay lifestyle by what Scripture says and you can not justify your lifestyle by bringing up other issues. It does not work that way, I am sorry for the deception you have fallen under and pray that God will reveal Himself in a more dramatic way then the way He is here thru those who write on these posts. He is drawing you to Himself but you mick have to surrender yourself to Him so He then can start to change your heart and your mind. He is knocking at your door mic, will you answer Him. Gods Blessing In Christ Tom

Daniel Paul »

Wed May 27, 2009 4:01 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 5

2Sa 12:10-11 "Now therefore the sword shall never depart from thine house; because thou hast despised me, and hast taken the wife of Uriah the Hittite to be thy wife. Thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will raise up evil against thee out of thine own house, and I will take thy wives before thine eyes, and give [them] unto thy neighbour, and he shall lie with thy wives in the sight of this sun. "

Please note that it is BECAUSE David took Uriah as his wife that God was not happy. If anything this verse speaks against having more than one wife.

Again...having one wife is a full time job!!!

believer »

Wed May 27, 2009 3:51 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 4

mickeyc, answered many times with ONE scripture passage only, which you take totally out of context since it has absolutely nothing to do with God approving polygamy, but for the fun of it let's say it does, so then who is the man who God gives David's wives to and where is it stated in the Bible not only who this man is but where he marries all of these wives?

MickeyC »

Wed May 27, 2009 2:27 pm Agree: 5   Disagree: 0

"mickeyc, so you have no passage of scripture that I have cited to show I've misquoted or taken a passage of scripture out of context to share what God's original and only design for marriage is. And once again I have never cited I Corinthians 6:9-10 in any of my posts to you!"

Asked and answered many times with Bible passages over and over. By constantly posting that I've not posted anything you show how you have nothing left. You've been show to be wrong by many people including me. I have given Bible passages, 2 Samuel 12:11 alone refutes your nonsense about only one way for marriage, yet you continue to pretend you don't see anything. The fact is you don't know the Bible, you can't argue the Bible and now you resort to nonsense. Give it up, you are just looking more and more foolish.

believer »

Wed May 27, 2009 2:12 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 5

mickeyc, so you have no passage of scripture that I have cited to show I've misquoted or taken a passage of scripture out of context to share what God's original and only design for marriage is. And once again I have never cited I Corinthians 6:9-10 in any of my posts to you!

MickeyC »

Wed May 27, 2009 1:48 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 0

"mickeyc, so show me one passage of scripture that I have misquoted or taken out of context as you so freely did with your infamous citing from II Samuel which has absolutely nothing to do with God's design for marriage which you feebly attempt to says that God approves of polygamy."

I posted the exact verse from Samuel and as with all over verses in the Bible, you want it to say what it does not. You constantly do this with 1 Cor 6:9-10 even when the original Greek doesn't back you up. All you want to do is use the Bible to justify YOUR choices in life and it doesn't. The fact that you must ignore the truth to do it is at best ridiculous and at worst blasphemy.

MickeyC »

Wed May 27, 2009 1:45 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

"Anything that supports your view... I've seen people post plenty of verses supporting the view against it, but not one from you supporting it...soooo, anything if you have it....oh, and Everyone knows it? really? lol"

If you've seen "plenty" of verses, by all means share them with me. The two or three usually used have nothing to do with homosexuality so let's see these "plenty". I'll be waiting.

believer »

Wed May 27, 2009 1:42 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 3

mickeyc, so show me one passage of scripture that I have misquoted or taken out of context as you so freely did with your infamous citing from II Samuel which has absolutely nothing to do with God's design for marriage which you feebly attempt to says that God approves of polygamy.

wowie »

Wed May 27, 2009 1:35 pm Agree: 3   Disagree: 5

"What Biblical support are you looking for? The Bible says NOTHING against homosexuality which pretty much everyone knows."

Anything that supports your view... I've seen people post plenty of verses supporting the view against it, but not one from you supporting it...soooo, anything if you have it....oh, and Everyone knows it? really? lol

MickeyC »

Wed May 27, 2009 1:33 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 0

"mickeyc, no, if anyone has set the standard for twisting the truth and more specifically God's Word you my friend are the champion of the universe in that category!"

You buddy DP can't even comment correctly on the US Constitution which was written in modern English, so it's little wonder that you can't understand a book that was written thousands of years ago. That is no excuse for your constant lies about the Bible. I used to think it was ignorance but now its pretty clear that you deliberately lie about what the Bible says to justify your personal issues. That is blasphemy and you're going to find out someday how God feel about it.

believer »

Wed May 27, 2009 1:29 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 5

mickeyc, no, if anyone has set the standard for twisting the truth and more specifically God's Word you my friend are the champion of the universe in that category!

MickeyC »

Wed May 27, 2009 1:23 pm Agree: 3   Disagree: 1

"mickeyc, DP has learned much from you in the art of twisting and turning truth to make it fit one's personal agenda!! "

DP listens to you far more than me, so its pretty obvious how he learned to misread, mistranslate and generally twist things to his own agenda. It was shown very clearly here just as it has been shown every clearly with your posts. You deserve all the credit, take it.

believer »

Wed May 27, 2009 1:10 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 5

mickeyc, DP has learned much from you in the art of twisting and turning truth to make it fit one's personal agenda!!

MickeyC »

Wed May 27, 2009 12:51 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 0

Daniel Paul has shown in his last two posts how people mistranslate and misinterpret documents for their own agenda. Obviously this is rampant with those who WANT the Bible to say what it does not say. Thanks for giving a visual aid to my point.

MickeyC »

Wed May 27, 2009 12:48 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

"Our Constitution doesn't say anything about freedom either."

So Daniel, you don't consider the First Amendment part of the Constitution? That certainly explains a lot.


Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

MickeyC »

Wed May 27, 2009 12:43 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 0

"The Constitution doesn't say we are allowed to have guns. It only talks about being allowed to wear short sleeves!!! We have the right to bear arms...."

Actually it has nothing to do with short sleeves, just that you can have your arms with you. Paying attention to the real meaning of words seems to be a problem for you both in the Constitution and the Bible. For you statement to be true it would have say "bare arms". It does not.

Daniel Paul »

Wed May 27, 2009 12:18 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 4

"What Biblical support are you looking for? The Bible says NOTHING against homosexuality which pretty much everyone knows."

The Constitution doesn't say we are allowed to have guns. It only talks about being allowed to wear short sleeves!!! We have the right to bear arms....

Daniel Paul »

Wed May 27, 2009 12:16 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 3

"What Biblical support are you looking for? The Bible says NOTHING against homosexuality which pretty much everyone knows."

Our Constitution doesn't say anything about freedom either.

MickeyC »

Wed May 27, 2009 9:57 am Agree: 5   Disagree: 1

"
You keep saying things like this, like everyone else is wrong, but you are right, but you haven't, in eight hours of posting, shown any biblical support for what You say...and since you claim to be a Christian, I would think you would be able to do that...no malice intended here, Im sure you'll blast me, but I'm just sayin' if you are going to devote 8 hours of your time to something..."

What Biblical support are you looking for? The Bible says NOTHING against homosexuality which pretty much everyone knows. Two or three passages are used constantly to condemn something that was never intended. That is all too clear to anyone who reads the passages in context, so what do you want?

Daniel Paul »

Tue May 26, 2009 11:56 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 5

"but I'm just sayin' if you are going to devote 8 hours of your time to something..."

If you can't dazzle them with brilliance....


Let me save Mickey the time:

"That's what you do Daniel Paul!!!"

viking »

Tue May 26, 2009 11:24 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

mickey are you over here?

wowie »

Tue May 26, 2009 10:55 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 3

I'm also interested in your response to viking's question on Prop 8 thread, had a conversation going and just left it hanging lol... hope you have a good night.. Im going to bed.

wowie »

Tue May 26, 2009 10:19 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 2

Mickey-Certainly nothing in the Bible, that's for sure

You keep saying things like this, like everyone else is wrong, but you are right, but you haven't, in eight hours of posting, shown any biblical support for what You say...and since you claim to be a Christian, I would think you would be able to do that...no malice intended here, Im sure you'll blast me, but I'm just sayin' if you are going to devote 8 hours of your time to something...

wrhalver »

Tue May 26, 2009 10:04 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 6

MickeyC

You know my real intentions? How is this when you cannot answer my question?

How is it that Homosexuality has come into play in this question? I am not asking you about Homosexuality.

If the truth is in you, lets hear it.

Please answer the question as it has been presented to you...nothing added and nothing taken away.

believer »

Tue May 26, 2009 9:59 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 4

mickeyc, I would say this is the pot calling the kettle black, but the reality is you are the only one pushing a personal agenda which has absolutely no valid biblical support!

MickeyC »

Tue May 26, 2009 9:56 pm Agree: 5   Disagree: 1

"If you do not know the answer to my question, how then do you judge my question? As Christ did not come to condemn, neither do I."

Apparently you do. Why deny your real intentions? God knows what's in your heart.

"My question is based on the four Gospels, the books you sware to uphold over all other books. Are you going to deny the truth that came from Christ himself?"

Since Christ never mention homosexuality and never said that there was ONLY one way for marriage, I can't imagine what you're talking about. Certainly nothing in the Bible, that's for sure.

MickeyC »

Tue May 26, 2009 9:54 pm Agree: 3   Disagree: 0

"mickeyc, you're right God doesn't support my agenda, but unlike you I do my best to support His agenda which is clearly found in His Word which you willfully choose to ignore!"

Oh please,you simply pretend that you follow God when it is clear you follow yourself and want God to follow you. You couldn't care less what God really wants or says, you merely want to use His name to support you indefensible position. Everyone on the CP has seen that since you've posted here.

wrhalver »

Tue May 26, 2009 9:50 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 6

MickeyC

If you do not know the answer to my question, how then do you judge my question? As Christ did not come to condemn, neither do I.

My question is based on the four Gospels, the books you sware to uphold over all other books. Are you going to deny the truth that came from Christ himself?

believer »

Tue May 26, 2009 9:40 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 8

mickeyc, you're right God doesn't support my agenda, but unlike you I do my best to support His agenda which is clearly found in His Word which you willfully choose to ignore!

MickeyC »

Tue May 26, 2009 9:35 pm Agree: 3   Disagree: 1

"You stated in another blog that no one can offend you, but there is one who can."

No, there isn't.

"Are you again going to call God a liar and deny there is an answer to this?"

No, I don't call God a liar, just those who lie about His word to condemn others.

MickeyC »

Tue May 26, 2009 9:33 pm Agree: 5   Disagree: 0

"mickeyc, I don't have to show you since God through His Word has shown you already and you simply refuse to believe Him! "

Nope, God doesn't support your agenda. It is your agenda because you hate the way God make you. You reject God every day of your life with your attitude.

believer »

Tue May 26, 2009 8:24 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 7

mickeyc, I don't have to show you since God through His Word has shown you already and you simply refuse to believe Him!

wrhalver »

Tue May 26, 2009 8:11 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 6

MickeyC

You still have not answered my question....

You stated in another blog that no one can offend you, but there is one who can.

Are you again going to call God a liar and deny there is an answer to this?

MickeyC »

Tue May 26, 2009 7:06 pm Agree: 3   Disagree: 0

"mickeyc, but God's Word clearly calls the sexual practices of homosexuality a sin, regardless of how you twist it! "

Nope it doesn't and you have yet to show it does. It is merely YOUR personal opinion based on your won personal problems.

MickeyC »

Tue May 26, 2009 7:05 pm Agree: 3   Disagree: 0

"Still waiting for a Bible verse that says gay is OK there Mickey...."

It's right next to the verse that says using a computer is OK. Look it up.

MickeyC »

Tue May 26, 2009 7:04 pm Agree: 3   Disagree: 0

"Dang, I eat shellfish all the time, which is explicitly forbidden by The Bible. And if that's not outside of enough, I also worked a full shift at work on Sunday, the Holy Day of Rest.

I'm doomed. "

Fear not Emery! The usual group of good "Christian" on here ignore any Bible passage that they don't like, upholding only those they like. They all belong to the Church of the Chinese Menu Bible.

believer »

Tue May 26, 2009 4:27 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 4

emery, no my friend, the only thing that will "doom" you is if you refuse to acknowledge the fact that you like the rest of us are a sinner and that you desire to have a personal relationship with God by turning from your sins and turn to God by putting your complete faith/trust in the person and finished work of Christ alone. Oh and by the way since Peter's encounter with God in Acts before he went to Cornelius it is now okay to eat shellfish!

emeryannharris »

Tue May 26, 2009 4:14 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 1

Flagged as inappropriate. show Dang, I eat shellfish all the time, which is explicitly forbidden by The Bible. And if that's not outside of enough, I also worked a full shift at work on Sunday, the Holy Day of Rest. I'm doomed. hide

Daniel Paul »

Tue May 26, 2009 12:48 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 5

Did anyone else hear an echo? Oh, it was just the emptiness of Mickey's post.

Still waiting for a Bible verse that says gay is OK there Mickey....

believer »

Tue May 26, 2009 12:37 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 4

mickeyc, but God's Word clearly calls the sexual practices of homosexuality a sin, regardless of how you twist it!

MickeyC »

Tue May 26, 2009 12:21 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

"MickeyC
You have said....
"Here is a sermon easily found on the internet and given in a church, yet I don't see anything being done to the pastor for his unpopular stance."

We are called upon to test the spirits for truth and deception. We are also told that there will be "anti-Christs" and by the Holy Spirit we learn how to identify them.

For him who has ears to hear, let him hear what the Spirit is saying to the church."

Therefore hate crimes legislation does nothing to affect the stand of various religions.