Updated 04:40 pm.EST, Sat November 21, 2009

Church|Thu, May. 21 2009 08:29 AM EDT

Conservative Evangelical Lutherans Make Open Plea on Homosexuality

By Lillian Kwon|Christian Post Reporter

A group of Lutheran scholars and church leaders released an open letter on Tuesday urging members churchwide to reject proposals that would liberalize the denomination's stance on homosexuality.

Ahead of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America's Churchwide Assembly in August, the conservative group is cautioning voting members against changing the denomination's current position on same-sex blessings and the ordination of partnered gays.

"The proposals to be considered by the Churchwide Assembly this summer from the Task Force for ELCA Studies on Sexuality are perceived by some as compromises that will permit the ELCA to live faithfully with internal diversity on controversial ethical questions. The proposals are in fact no compromise," the letter states. "They clearly imply that same-sex blessings and the ordination and rostering of homosexual persons in committed relationships are acceptable within the ELCA."

"The teaching of the church will be changed," the letter warns. "We should not make such an important decision without clear biblical and theological support."

Earlier this year, the task force released a long-awaited report acknowledging that there is neither a consensus nor an emerging one in the denomination on homosexuality while at the same time recommending that individual congregations be allowed to choose whether to allow gays and lesbians in committed relationships to be ordained.

Currently, the ELCA allows the ordination of gays and lesbians if they remain celibate.

The task force agreed that the denomination cannot responsibly consider any changes to its policies unless it is able and willing in some way to recognize lifelong, monogamous, same-gender relationships but it recommended that the ELCA commit itself to finding ways to recognize such relationships.

Two members of the task force whose dissent is expressed in the proposals have signed on to the opposing letter.

"The church is founded on the whole Word of God, both law and gospel. The Task Force texts seem to permit variation on all ethical questions, no matter how fundamental," the letter states. "How Christians behave sexually is not a matter of indifference to our life in Christ."

Prominent scholars and church leaders were brought together last month to draft the letter, which was initiated by Lutheran CORE (Coalition for Reform), a conservative coaltion within the ELCA. Nearly 60 bishops, pastors and teachers have signed the letter. Others are invited to add their signatures.

"We wanted a clear statement from Lutheran theologians and church leaders who uphold biblical teaching on sexuality as it has been believed and taught by the Christian Church for nearly 2,000 years," said the Rev. Paull Spring of State College, Pa., chair of the Lutheran CORE Steering Committee.

"We are grateful for the scholars and church leaders who have been willing to stand with us and with the vast majority of Christians worldwide and throughout time," Spring said.

Scholars and pastors in the letter reject the task force's recommendation that the ELCA commit itself to "respect the bound consciences of all."

"Conscience can err," the letter states. "The Word of God, not conscience, is the final court of appeal in the church."

Approving the public recognition of same-sex unions or the ordination of non-celibate gays and lesbians, the signatories further argue, would damage the ELCA's ecumenical relationships with the Roman Catholic Church, the Orthodox Church, and Evangelical churches, "all of which affirm the clear teaching of Scripture that homosexual activity departs from God’s design for marriage and sexuality."

The open letter is being mailed to the 1,045 voting members of the 4.7 million-member denomination's Churchwide Assembly. The assembly is scheduled for August 17-23 in Minneapolis where the panel's proposals will be considered.

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  • Fri Jul 31, 2009 5:53 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Getting back to the article at hand, I stand with fellow members of the ELCA who object to the ordaining of non-celibate gay pastors, and I also object to the false marriages being promoted for gays. The ELCA is increasingly lost. I stay in the denomination only because of my love for my home congregation, whose members are smart enough to know what the Bible teaches.

  • Fri Jul 03, 2009 7:43 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Flagged as inappropriate. show "Homophobia" is a tactic for threatening anyone that will not go along with the mob in Sodom. Bring on the attack against The Church GLBT's. We've seen your faces before many times. hide

  • Tue Jun 23, 2009 9:05 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 0

    Homophobia is a sin like lying, stealing and murder. God hates sin. How very sad that those caught up in homophobia would rather rip the church apart then let go of their sin. Even the Bible tells us in more than one place that revilers are not going to Heaven.

  • Fri Jun 05, 2009 5:06 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

    "Prophet: I found a great teacher for you. She is over on ..."Eucumunical ...shared Easter Dates." Her name is Cheisa and super smart."


    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    I got one smarter. His name is Jesus. Pretty much the smartest guy around.

  • Fri Jun 05, 2009 5:05 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    Easter is a pagan holiday instituted by the Catholic Church. Go pagan Catholics!

  • Thu Jun 04, 2009 11:57 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Prophet: I found a great teacher for you. She is over on ..."Eucumunical ...shared Easter Dates." Her name is Cheisa and super smart

  • Thu Jun 04, 2009 7:56 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Yeah, I should. They are so good, I need more of them.

  • Thu Jun 04, 2009 1:45 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    "So the Apostolic succession has nothing to do with Apostles. It should be called Bishop succession"

    I don't know what classes you are taking but perhaps you should double up on them.

  • Thu Jun 04, 2009 12:00 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    So the Apostolic succession has nothing to do with Apostles. It should be called Bishop succession.

  • Wed Jun 03, 2009 11:59 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    "I also said if you want to keep using the term "the 13 Apostles"--be my guest, but people will be forever correcting you because they know Our Lord chose 12."

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    I didn't use the term 13 Apostles. If I did, it was a typo.

  • Wed Jun 03, 2009 11:58 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    "Not the reason priests move. Like this week the priest (Fr Oprah) caught with his gal friend on the beach down in Florida."

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    Actually, the reason I stated is the reason priests move. Nice attempt to cover the truth, but it remains so.

  • Wed Jun 03, 2009 11:25 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Prophet: "I didn't think you'd have a reasonable response to the conundrum that you've put yourself into. It seems you're the one confused. You say the original 12 Apostles are the only Apostles, but yet you say there is an Apostolic succession and an Apostolic authority handed down. That can't happen if there are no more Apostles after the twelve."

    You don't understand Apostolic Succession. Apostles are not like "beanbags" being handed down century by century; it means Bishops are created and handed down century by century and they consecrate priests, whom become Bishops, who consecrate more priests, and so on as they have for 2000+ years.

    Along with this are the priestly powers (by the order of Melchizadek), to Baptize, to Confirm, Holy Orders (priests are ordained as above), to consecrate the Eucharist (the changing of the bread and wine into Our Lord's Body and Blood),to forgive sins (Sacrament of Reconciliation), the Annointing of the Sick [once called the Last Rites], and Marriage {here the couples are the operators of the Sacrament; the priest is the chief witness) Note that in all other Sacraments the priest is the operator.

    I also said if you want to keep using the term "the 13 Apostles"--be my guest, but people will be forever correcting you because they know Our Lord chose 12.

  • Wed Jun 03, 2009 11:12 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    "It is easier to move a Catholic Priest. They know the truth about the Catholic Church..."

    Not the reason priests move. Like this week the priest (Fr Oprah) caught with his gal friend on the beach down in Florida.
    When exposed he merely walked into an Episcopal church because he knew they would put up with anything...infidelity, gay preachers, gay weddings. The Catholic Church holds true to Jesus' teachings that these are sins and will not put up with it (like abortion, infanticide, etc.)

  • Wed Jun 03, 2009 9:50 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Well, it's been interesting, but I must go. I've spent too much time casting my pearls before the swine. I've got three sermons I need to finish, and all this humdrum on CP is cutting into my study time. God be with you and keep you.

  • Wed Jun 03, 2009 9:21 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    "I missed nothing. All the paintings of Jesus and the disiples show them as caucausian with brown, maybe black sometimes, hair. They even paint Jesus with blue eyes. How far from the truth can you be?"

    Nothing unusual about this."


    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    I didn't think that false portrayals would concern a Catholic.....

  • Wed Jun 03, 2009 9:19 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    "Hey, we agree. But it's harder to move a Protestant Minister than a Catholic priest."

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    Wow. That was lame. But you, unwittingly, are correct. It is easier to move a Catholic Priest. They know the truth about the Catholic Church, and it's apostasy. So they are more willing to move. As goes for Protestants. Since they are in the truth, it is hard to remove them. But Satan is crafty.

  • Wed Jun 03, 2009 8:50 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    I didn't think you'd have a reasonable response to the conundrum that you've put yourself into. It seems you're the one confused. You say the original 12 Apostles are the only Apostles, but yet you say there is an Apostolic succession and an Apostolic authority handed down. That can't happen if there are no more Apostles after the twelve.

  • Wed Jun 03, 2009 8:04 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    "Then either you're a liar, or the Catholic Church is. You said yourself on Tueesday at 9:55, that the only Apostles are the twelve original. Right after that you distinguished between Apostles (big A, the original twelve and no one else) and apostles (little a, anyone who wants to be an apostle).

    So, since the twelve are the only Apostles (big A), then everyone after them are apostles (little a). Apostolic authority would have to be given to apostles (little a), which include Catholic and Protestant (as confirmed by you). So the Catholic are wrong in their claim that they are the only ones with Apostolic authority. Apostles (big A) don't exist, and all apostles (little a) have apostolic authority. "

    Take an aspirin buddy. You seem highly confused?? You asked me for names of Protestant Theologians who assert that Christ did give the "Keys" to St Peter, the first Pope, Holy Father, Bishop of Rome (whatever title pleases you); I gave you their names and credentials. So seek them out for guidance in your spiritual journey. God Bless (on second thought--ummm, maybe two aspirin)

    If you want to keep saying "the 13 Apostles" that's up to you; but even your own ministers will look at you strange.

    Here's a jingle I learned at the age of 6:

    (to the Pepsi Cola Commercial beat)
    Catholic Religion hit the spot
    12 Apostles that's a lot
    A Holy Ghost and a Virgin, too
    Catholic Religion is the One for Yooooo...ooooooo!

    (Get to bed before your handlers find out you've escaped)

  • Wed Jun 03, 2009 7:52 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    "That's about right. And it looks like Blacksho has backed me as far at ExCathedra decisions are concerned; so people make more of it than there is."

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    Then either you're a liar, or the Catholic Church is. You said yourself on Tueesday at 9:55, that the only Apostles are the twelve original. Right after that you distinguished between Apostles (big A, the original twelve and no one else) and apostles (little a, anyone who wants to be an apostle).

    So, since the twelve are the only Apostles (big A), then everyone after them are apostles (little a). Apostolic authority would have to be given to apostles (little a), which include Catholic and Protestant (as confirmed by you). So the Catholic are wrong in their claim that they are the only ones with Apostolic authority. Apostles (big A) don't exist, and all apostles (little a) have apostolic authority.

  • Wed Jun 03, 2009 7:32 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    "Wow. I did a search on former Catholic priests and came up with a lot. Looks like the exodus works both ways...."

    Hey, we agree. But it's harder to move a Protestant Minister than a Catholic priest. I was just reading about Vampire Woman's conversion the other day (Ann Rice) and I noted some things in the article that "do not sound to me like fully Catholic." I'm not judging her but it sounded more "feminist reasoning" than Catholic. If you recall, St Augustine coming off his bout with atheism had a real struggle with the "doctrine of the Trinity (don't we all)...so he would not make the move to Catholicism, so one day as he was walking the beach he say a little boy with two cups scooping up the ocean water trying to fill his other cup...Augustine said, "Don't you know little boy you cannot fill your cup with the entire ocean." The boy (God's angel) said, "And neither can you, Augustine understand fully the doctrine of the Trinity." Augustine converted.

  • Wed Jun 03, 2009 7:24 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    "I missed nothing. All the paintings of Jesus and the disiples show them as caucausian with brown, maybe black sometimes, hair. They even paint Jesus with blue eyes. How far from the truth can you be?"

    Nothing unusual about this. I've noted also that Chinese Catholics see Our Lady as a Chinese woman (seems logical to me) Human nature, that's all.

    I believe I have a picture of Our Lady as she really looks but this is only my opinion. When I see Her again I will ask Her. She is beautiful, of course.

  • Wed Jun 03, 2009 7:18 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    "I read up on the excathedra on the catholic encyclopedia. It says that "when in discharge of the office of pastor and doctor of all Christians, by virtue of his supreme Apostolic authority, he defines a doctrine regarding faith or morals to be held by the universal Church..."

    That's about right. And it looks like Blacksho has backed me as far at ExCathedra decisions are concerned; so people make more of it than there is. But remember Excathedra decisions merely affirm what has always been true; re: 1950 on Mary Call up an archeologist and ask them why no one looks for Mary's tomb (he would laugh at us) pointing out there is no discussion "traditionally" about Mary's tomb because no tomb exists-"assumed into Heaven"; yet, all the other character's tombs exist-St Peter's found about 20-30 years ago; Caiphas (the high priest about 2 years ago), and architects continue to look for them; the stronger authority in the Pope's favor is "in union with His Bishops on "matters of Faith and Morals" He will continue to reveal Christ's truth i.e., the binding and loosing" authority Christ guaranteed to Peter re: "the Keys," and believed universally up to 1517.
    Wow! You guys are giving me a workout, me being just a humble servant of Our Lord. God Bless
    If a severe doctrinal question comes up in the future He still has the Ex cathedra authority.

  • Wed Jun 03, 2009 4:50 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    I read up on the excathedra on the catholic encyclopedia. It says that "when in discharge of the office of pastor and doctor of all Christians, by virtue of his supreme Apostolic authority, he defines a doctrine regarding faith or morals to be held by the universal Church..."

    Is that right?

  • Wed Jun 03, 2009 4:30 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    So, I look up Ex Cathedra, to find out the the Pope has only made two ex cathedra pronouncements: One, in 1870, that states that Ex Cathedra pronouncements are infallible, and another in 1950 that Mary mother of Jesus was taken bodily into Heaven. So, danpatt, is it correct to say that these are the only to items in Catholic theology that can be truly said to be infallible?

  • Wed Jun 03, 2009 4:22 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    "O Danny Boy, the pipes want to know-is the the Mother Church infallible, or not?"

    "Again, this only shows ignorance...first learn the Doctrine of Infallibility before you try to quote it. It helps to be knowledgeable. You might start with the terms Ex Cathedra...and then move on from there."

    danpatt-YOU used the word infallible on May 30 at 4:36 pm. So who is ignorant, now?

  • Wed Jun 03, 2009 4:21 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Wow. I did a search on former Catholic priests and came up with a lot. Looks like the exodus works both ways....

  • Wed Jun 03, 2009 4:19 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    More Protestant Theologians:

    "I have several other quotations here. I won't go through them all, but let me just summarize with a quotation from an English Protestant scholar, J.N.D. Kelly in his book, Oxford Dictionary of the Popes. He says, "The Papacy is the oldest of all Western institutions with an unbroken existence of almost 2000 years."

  • Wed Jun 03, 2009 4:15 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    # 2 Prophet:

    "Another Lutheran professor, a professor of scripture and theology at Concordia Seminary in Hong Kong, Torg Forberg wrote an article entitled, "Peter, High Priest of the New Covenant." Forberg insists that Jesus is the ultimate High Priest in the New Testament, but he says, "Peter is presented as some kind of successor to the High Priest in tradition used by the final redactorate, Matthew 16:13-19. Peter stands out as a kind of chief Rabbi who binds and looses in the sense of declaring something to be forbidden or permitted."

  • Wed Jun 03, 2009 4:14 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    "You may have missed it but Jesus and the Apostles were Jewish. And people who live in Italy are called Italians (no difference)"

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    I missed nothing. All the paintings of Jesus and the disiples show them as caucausian with brown, maybe black sometimes, hair. They even paint Jesus with blue eyes. How far from the truth can you be?

  • Wed Jun 03, 2009 4:13 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Prophet: Fair enough. Names to back up Protestant Theologians and some of their statements:

    This has led an Evangelical Protestant German scholar, Gerhardt Meier, who wrote a famous book that conservative Protestants frequently refer to, "The End of the Historical Critical Method". In his article, "The Church and the Gospel of Matthew," Gerhardt Meier says on pages 58 through 60, "Nowadays, a broad consensus has emerged which, in accordance with the words of the text applies the promise to Peter as a personâ

  • Wed Jun 03, 2009 11:17 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    Prophet: "In 2001, James Shelton was ordained and brought on staff at Destiny Church, as full-time Childrenâ

  • Wed Jun 03, 2009 11:11 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    Prophet: "Are those the same paintings that paint Jesus and the disciples as caucasians?"

    You may have missed it but Jesus and the Apostles were Jewish. And people who live in Italy are called Italians (no difference)

  • Wed Jun 03, 2009 11:10 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    "Scott Butler, Norman Dahlgren, David Hess. This brand new selection is already at the top of the best-seller list. The reviews speak for themselves. Let us just cite a sampling: "Jesus, Peter and the Keys raises issues no serious student of the Bible can blithely ignore. The time has come for Protestants to set aside their aversions to Roman Catholicism which color their interpretation of the New Testament, and let the text speak for itself." (Dr. James Shelton, Oral Roberts University)."

    "This book is a bombshell. It serves up an avalanche of incontrovertible evidence, more overwhelming than any single argument---much of it, remarkably, culled from Protestant sources." (Philip Blosser, Proff. Philosophy, Lenoir-Rhyne Lutheran College). Scott Butler, one of the three authors/compilers of this blockbuster book, has personally brought into the Catholic Church over 400 Protestant ministers, with more on the way every week. Scott challenges anyone to read this book and remain unmoved by Christ's invitation to be a part of His Mystical Body. Peter's Keys, Faith and Baptism, are still opening the gate of Heaven to all men of good will. Magnificent quotes. An unforgettable contribution to the effort to fulfill Christ's great plea, "That they be one, Father, as thou in me and I in thee. That they be one in us." 431 pp."

  • Wed Jun 03, 2009 2:02 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    Dr. James Shelton is not a Protestant. Look up his bio. Though he attended ORU and a theologian at ORU, he is Catholic through and through.

    As for the other fellow, I'm still researching.

    But let me use a term that you have used before in reference to people leaving the Catholic cult. DeHart is simply a PINO.

  • Wed Jun 03, 2009 1:46 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    If the Pope during the time that this was allowed truly understood the Word, then it would not have been allowed to happen.

  • Wed Jun 03, 2009 1:32 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    "NO... because there are no "keys" to the Kingdom of Heaven. Jesus heads His own Church."

    Really? From Protestant sources:

    "Jesus, Peter and the Keys raises issues no serious student of the Bible can blithely ignore. The time has come for Protestants to set aside their aversions to Roman Catholicism which color their interpretation of the New Testament, and let the text speak for itself." (Dr. James Shelton, Oral Roberts University). "No longer may Protestants exclaim, Sola Scriptura' to rebuke Roman Catholic papal dogma. The authority of Scripture is presented as a convincing apologetic for the primacy of Peter" (Rev. S. D. De Hart, Rector, St. Andrew's Episcopal Church, Gainesville, FL).

  • Wed Jun 03, 2009 1:24 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    "Paying for your sins to be forgiven by acts of money, charity, walking on one's knees or any other form is not what Scripture teaches in either the First Covenant or the Second Covenant."

    Thank you, god.

  • Tue Jun 02, 2009 11:50 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Penance? Basic Koine Greek readers know that Jerome made a big boo-boo and used penance incorrectly because the original language means repentance. Penance is not what the original language says or means.
    Paying for your sins to be forgiven by acts of money, charity, walking on one's knees or any other form is not what Scripture teaches in either the First Covenant or the Second Covenant.

    Grace and Peace,
    Jim

  • Tue Jun 02, 2009 6:59 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 3

    "Prophet: That is a beautiful prayer. I printed it and will say it often."

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    Thanks. I choose to pray to God. He alone is the only One who can hear and answer our prayers. I know some people like to pray to people, but I choose not to indulge in idolatry.

  • Tue Jun 02, 2009 6:52 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 3

    But the topic of paying for sins still shows that the Pope is fallible. Paying money for sins committed is anti-scriptural (as, from what I understand, the Catholics will agree with). If the Pope during the time that this was allowed truly understood the Word, then it would not have been allowed to happen.

  • Tue Jun 02, 2009 6:44 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 2

    "When you see paintings of Peter holding the "Keys" in Christian art work over the centuries..."

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    Are those the same paintings that paint Jesus and the disciples as caucasians? Probably. Like everything else from Catholicism, it is made in man's image and wrong.

  • Tue Jun 02, 2009 6:37 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    "So, we are at an impasse. I do not know as much about Catholicism as you do. And you do not know as much about Scripture as I do. And we can keep going back and forth, you quoting the Church, and me quoting Scripture, and neither getting anywhere."

    Good point. But I learn from every experience, some good things and some bad things. I enjoy the repete very much. I also had things I hadn't thought of in 40+ years so it made me re-learn the education and methods of research from my past (another benefit) Good on you. In addition I was led to sites I did not even know existed (like Catholic Answers), and other Protestant sites where I found the references to, for example, "the current thinking on the "Keys." And I learned "a ton" from the several Protestant "Catholics to be" and it leaves me puzzled "since they have the same background as some of you...how did they overcome...their opposition to Mary for instance...the Keys for instance...and so forth. God Bless

  • Tue Jun 02, 2009 6:33 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    "Check with your own Protestant Theologians...they agree with Catholic Theologians on the "Keys."

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    I'd like to, but so far all they are are "Protestant Theologians". How about some names to back up your rather generalized statement.

  • Tue Jun 02, 2009 6:28 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 2

    "So bone up before you speak, for you have eyes and do not see; ears and you do not hear."

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~`

    So, we are at an impasse. I do not know as much about Catholicism as you do. And you do not know as much about Scripture as I do. And we can keep going back and forth, you quoting the Church, and me quoting Scripture, and neither getting anywhere.

  • Tue Jun 02, 2009 6:28 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    ""This "key exchange" never took place and if it did in YOUR Catholic Church traditions..."

    When you see paintings of Peter holding the "Keys" in Christian art work over the centuries, it does not mean it is there because he got locked out of his house. The "Keys" are rabbinic as a sign of "authority" as Christ gave them to him.

  • Tue Jun 02, 2009 6:22 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    "and as far as petey's concerned. i've done enough research to agree with proph. pete was never a pope. it's a fable made up centuries after pete died."

    Check with your own Protestant Theologians...they agree with Catholic Theologians on the "Keys."

  • Tue Jun 02, 2009 6:19 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    "O Danny Boy, the pipes want to know-is the the Mother Church infallible, or not?"

    Again, this only shows ignorance...first learn the Doctrine of Infallibility before you try to quote it. It helps to be knowledgeable. You might start with the terms Ex Cathedra...and then move on from there.

  • Tue Jun 02, 2009 6:12 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    "You took the words right out of my mouth. The Catholic church and the Pope are not infallible, as shown by even the act of paying for penance. Either it's of God or it's not. If it is, then some Pope didn't interpret it right. If it isn't, then some Pope didn't interpret it right."

    Sounds like the Tower of Babel. This guy has as much knowledge of Catholicism as he does of McDonald's Hamburgers.

    Catholics do not pay for penance. And the Pope had nothing to do with it.

    As for Infallibility the Pope has only made 2 Ex Cathedra decisions in the history of Christ's church--one in 1950 and one in 1870 [to my knowledge]. Not a lot for 2100 years.
    So bone up before you speak, for you have eyes and do not see; ears and you do not hear.

  • Tue Jun 02, 2009 6:06 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Prophet: That is a beautiful prayer. I printed it and will say it often. All prayer is pleasing to God.

  • Tue Jun 02, 2009 4:50 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    danpart,

    I prefer the prayer:

    Blessed Son of God,
    who can worthily repay you with praise
    and thanks for having rescued a fallen world
    by your generous consent!
    Receive our gratitude,
    and by your prayers obtain the pardon of our sins.
    Take our prayers into the sanctuary of heaven
    and enable them to make our peace with God.

    Holy One of God, help the miserable,
    strengthen the discouraged,
    comfort the sorrowful,
    pray for your people,
    plead for the clergy,
    intercede for all people consecrated to God.
    May all who glorify you
    feel now your help and protection.
    Be ready to help us when we pray,
    and bring back to us the answers to our prayers.
    Make it your continual concern
    to pray for the people of God,
    for you are the only Son of God
    and were made worthy to bear the sins of the world,
    you who lives and reigns forever.

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