Updated 12:47 pm.EST, Sun November 22, 2009

Church|Tue, Jun. 09 2009 12:12 PM EDT

Survey Examines America's Megachurchgoers

By Lillian Kwon|Christian Post Reporter

Compared to attendees of a typical Protestant church, people who attend megachurches are more likely to be young, single, more educated and wealthier, a new survey reveals.

The majority of megachurch attendees (62 percent) are under the age of 45 whereas less than half (35 percent) of those in a typical congregation fall in the 18-44 age group, according to a megachurch report by Scott Thumma of Hartford Institute for Religion Research and Warren Bird of Leadership Network.

The report – "Not Who You Think They Are: The Real Story of People Who Attend America's Megachurches" – is based on data from a national survey that drew 24,900 responses from 12 carefully selected megachurches across the country. It is claimed to be the largest national representative study of megachurch attendees conducted by any researchers to date.

With more than 5 million people worshipping at megachurches – Protestant churches of 2,000 or more weekly attendees – in a typical week, Thumma and Bird sought to provide a look at who these worshippers are, why they come and why some stay.

"[U]ntil now, very little was known about those who attend these churches,'" the researchers state in their report, released Tuesday.

For comparison, the researchers used findings from the U.S. Congregational Life Study (USCLS), a study of Protestant churches of all sizes that was completed in April 2001.

They found that in addition to drawing more young adults, megachurches tend to bring in more single, unmarried people than a typical church. Nearly a third of megachurch attendees are single compared to just 10 percent of a typical congregation. The vast majority (80 percent) of those in a typical congregation are married or widowed.

Megachurches also tend to draw in a lot more new people compared to the typical church. Over two-thirds (68 percent) of megachurch attendees have been there five years or less while only 40 percent of those in churches of all sizes joined the church recently. Almost half (45 percent) of attendees of a typical church have been there for more than 10 years.

Although megachurches have nearly twice as many new attendees, most of the new people are already Christians and came from another church. Seventy-seven percent said they have been long-time committed Christ followers for seven or more years and only 2 percent said they are not a follower. Also, 18 percent had not attended church for a while before coming to the megachurch and just 6 percent said they never went to church previously.

Most megachurch attendees (82 percent) come at the invitation of a friend, family member or co-worker, the study found. Only 19 percent said they saw the church or viewed media about it and came on their own.

Only 16 percent said they viewed the church's website before attending.

Examining what attracts people to megachurches, the survey found that the worship style, senior pastor, and reputation of the church, respectively, were the strongest factors in initial attraction.

Those three items were also most influential in having people stay. The senior pastor, however, proved to be the strongest factor that kept people coming back.

Still, loyalty was found to be an issue among some megachurch attendees.

Three quarters called their megachurch their only church home but 11 percent said they didn't consider it their home church and 12 percent claimed it as home but said they also attended other churches.

The researchers found that divided loyalties impact the level of commitment to the church.

Roughly 90 percent of megachurch participants claimed regular worship service attendance but those from the USCLS sample were slightly more likely to attend services weekly or at least two to three times a month.

Additionally, megachurch attendees are less committed financially than those in a typical church with 32 percent saying they contribute nothing or give just a small amount when they can. While a third of both groups give a tithe (10 percent of income) or more, the megachurch giving figures are overall significantly below those for churches of all sizes.

Although their contributions are small, their level of giving has actually increased since attending the megachurch. Forty percent said they were giving more at the megachurch than at their previous church.

Other findings show that almost half (45 percent) of megachurch participants said they never volunteered and only 60 percent participate in small groups.

Nevertheless, the report pointed out that even the marginal participants are hardly uninvolved spectators.

Seventy percent of megachurch participants practice personal devotions daily or often during the week and 87 percent have invited at least one person to church in the last year, the survey found.

"[T]hese findings suggest that many participants are interacting with the megachurches on their own terms, to meet their own individualized needs," the researchers state in their report, noting that megachurches offer a multitude of choices and avenues by which churchgoers' spiritual needs can be met.

"As such, involvement at these (and perhaps all) churches may be less about creating an idealized plan to move someone toward commitment and more about providing many ways by which people could craft their unique, customized spiritual experience to meet their needs," the researchers add.

Most (62 percent) megachurch attendees said they experienced much spiritual growth in the past year with 42 percent attributing that growth to their involvement in the church.

Forty-five percent strongly agreed that their spiritual needs were being met and only 14 percent expressed a level of dissatisfaction with their spiritual growth at the megachurches.

Moreover, over two-thirds of attendees said their church is making a strong effort to get them involved and nearly three quarters agreed that their megachurches were making strong efforts to train, develop and coach leaders. Sixty-one percent also said they feel encouraged to discover and use their gifts and skills and 73 percent said they felt a sense of belonging to their church.

And the longer they attend the megachurch, the higher their commitment becomes.

The survey showed that regular attendance, involvement, and financial contributions increased with time. Fewer people reported "much growth" in their faith after five years of attendance but they were still more likely to experience spiritual growth than those in churches of all sizes.

The 12 megachurches studied in the survey, conducted January to August 2008, were intentionally chosen to parallel the diversity among all U.S. megachurches as closely as possible. The survey was supplemented with site visits, interviews and other data collection efforts.

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  • Fri Jul 17, 2009 1:05 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    In some cases the celebrity status of a Pastor could be the reason for such a large congregation and some maybe they feel it fits them and other maybe for conviction.
    Most of the large churches could be called feel good churches also, because I feel good when I go there. I prefer going to a church that the Holy Spirit has led me too. I much perfer having conviction and hearing all scripture and not just parts of the bible. The only way one can mature in the Kingdom is by conviction and obedience to Gods word.

  • Mon Jul 06, 2009 12:07 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Very interesting survey!

    I ponder at what the acceptable church size should be...in order to live according to scripture. 500? I don't know.

    plea4help.com

  • Fri Jul 03, 2009 3:07 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Chas,

    Defining the words of "worship" and 'veneration" is one thing but in every day practical living these two often overlap and are indistinguishable. For example, the lighting of candles, placing photos of dead loved ones before statuettes, the kissing of, and praying before a photo/statue/icon of any saint is idolatrous! There are numerous passages that explicitly forbid the making of any similitude of anything on earth or in heaven. So, bowing, genuflecting, kissing, praying to or before these objects is strictly forbidden . . . Where in their recorded testimony (the Scriptures) do we read of any of them (the apostles) praying to dead saints or instructing believers to petition dead saints? Such practices are an abomination according to God's Word.

  • Chas »
    Thu Jun 25, 2009 3:52 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 2

    Star,

    I'll jump in here, since Chris did not respond to you. The thread seems dead for a bit.

    First of all, the english language is far too limited to respond accurately and it was not the language from which these definitions came from, so I'll use the Greek language of Saint Augustine.

    Worship(worth-ship) or Latria: Is sacrificial in nature. To offer specific and unique praise, adoration because of God's divinity. To re-present the one time sacrifice of Christ on Calvary to God the Father in the Eucharist(bread and wine)(do this in memory of me and for the forgiveness of sins).

    Honor or Dulia: Is non sacrificial. To give special attention and veneration in a lower form to a human being as they reflect the image and likeness of God. This type of Honor is due to mothers and fathers, Saints and Angels, and others who do the will of God. You may not offer sacrific to them as that would be idolatry.

    Honor or Hyperdulia: Is non-sacrificial. To give the highest level of veneration and attention with concern to the Virgin Mary because of her most unique role and blessed position of all man kind to be the Mother of Christ. This honor or veneration is higher than other forms of honor because of God's blessing on her, but lower than worship or adoration because she is a human and a created thing and someone we do not offer sacrifice to.

    Worship is due only to God. You may not worship a created being, since that would be idolatry.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latria

    http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05188b.htm

    Since the Catholic Church did not arise from American culture or the english language, and arose instead from ancient cultures and with the use of Greek, Aramaic, Hebrew and Latin languages, that to truly understand this distinction between the words honor and worship or dulia and latria, you must first understand the culture from which it came from. By doing this, you will better understand authentic Christianity.

  • Thu Jun 25, 2009 1:43 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    To get this thread back on topic, did anyone see anything in this article that said the people who go to a megachurch go there because it is the most theologically accurate form of Christianity they can find locally?

    I'm seeing from the article that a cool house band, a hip pastor and the name recognition of the church are the driving factors, but I could be wrong. I also feel that if the celebrity pastor left on good terms, the people would leave, too. What's your read?

  • Star »
    Thu Jun 18, 2009 2:07 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    >>>We do not worship the Saints, we honor them.<<<

    Define 'honor' Chris. Define 'worship'.

  • Wed Jun 17, 2009 11:21 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    You are not honoring then (the patron saints) Chris you are worshipping them!

  • Wed Jun 17, 2009 5:26 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 2

    As Saints we are called to be like the Moon is to the Sun. As the moon can never be the Sun, it does its best to reflect the Sun's radiance and glory.

    As baptised Christians we can never be God, but we can try to immitate Christ life to such a degree that our lives reflect the radiance of God's Glory in Heaven, thus bringing more people by our example to Christ.

    If someone gives honor to a Saint, then they are only honoring what God did in them as they are His creation and all their works were a reflection of God's Love. Saints are called to be a window to God, so that the more we are in Christ the less they see of us and more of Him who sent us. We must decrease so He increases. The Statue represents a Saint who became very small so that others might coming into a saving relationship with Christ. The Statue also affirms this was a real person who truly lived a heroic life for Christ. This statue does nothing for the person it honors, but does much for the body of Christ to give example of what can be done for the Glory of God if we let go of our own will and serve God with all our heart.

    May Christ be glorified in all we do!
    Romans 2:7
    To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

  • Wed Jun 17, 2009 5:11 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 2

    I personally don't care if someone makes a statue of me. Yes, many people have come to the Catholic faith through me, but that is only because of the Work through the Holy Spirit that he put in me. It is God who works through all of us Christians for we can do nothing good without the Grace of God.

    Worship or Adoration is due only to God, but we may honor other human beings too. Honor is not due only to God, as Worship is. We do not worship the Saints, we honor them.

    Here are some helpful scripture verses where people are honored.
    Genesis 45:13
    Tell my father about all the honor accorded me in Egypt and about everything you have seen. And bring my father down here quickly."
    Exodus 20:12
    "Honor your father and your mother, so that you may live long in the land the LORD your God is giving you.
    Genesis 30:20
    Then Leah said, "God has presented me with a precious gift. This time my husband will treat me with honor, because I have borne him six sons." So she named him Zebulun.
    Escapes to Berea by night; preaches in the synagogue; many honorable women and several men believe (Acts 17:10-12)
    BIRTHRIGHT » An honorable title (Exodus 4:22; Psalms 89:27; Jeremiah 31:9; Romans 8:29; Colossians 1:15; H)
    BURIAL » BURYING PLACES » A place of honor (2 Chronicles 24:16,25;21:20)

    But the most profound of all scripture is:
    John 12:26
    Whoever serves me must follow me; and where I am, my servant also will be. My Father will honor the one who serves me.

    So even God honors humans who serve Jesus, and Catholics honor those people to since we are called to immitate God.

  • Wed Jun 17, 2009 4:59 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 5

    Star2,

    If you got that impression it is from your personal bias and not an actual reflection of what I feel.

    Jesus is the only name under heaven by which a man is saved. It is only through Christ that one is saved since no one can come to the Father except through Christ. Worship, praise, honor, love and obediance are all due to Christ. I also honor my Mother and my Father as scripture says, which does not detract from Jesus. I also have pictures of my parents up on my wall with my kids, and yet these are not graven images. I have a picture of Billy Graham on my desk with a picture of the Pope right next to him because these were the two people who most influenced my life in Christ. I also have a hand written letter from an elementary school teacher who encouraged my faith in Christ.

    I honor all those who served Christ. I may have not built any statues, probably for a lack of funds, but I do have pictures of them and that is the same thing. It is an image of someone who served God. I, like many people, have pictures to help remind us of loved ones, great Presidents like Reagan, or of fellow Saints in the vineyard of God like St. Peter, like St. Paul, Like Billy Graham and like the Virgin Mary.

    Have you ever taken a picture of anyone and stuck it on the wall or in your purse or on your coffee table? You honor them because this shows your love for them. Have you ever put flowers on a grave, knowing full well, they are not there but in Heaven?

  • Wed Jun 17, 2009 2:24 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    >>>Yes, these Saints didn't die for my sins, but they did die for the Faith<<<

    I get the impression Chris that Jesus dying for you means less to you than what some man has done for you in the past.

  • Wed Jun 17, 2009 2:21 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    msnchris70

    >>>God works through his Saints to bring others to the saving grace of Christ.

    These Saints should be honored, because it reminds us that God can use regular every day people like a fisherman or a Tax collector and with God's grace they can accomplish amazing things in Christ. These Saints brought the Good news to all of us.<<<

    You have helped many people in the Catholic faith like IHS. Does this mean that IHS and others should make a statute of you, bow down to kiss it, to give you honor for helping them in their faith?

  • Wed Jun 17, 2009 2:17 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Chris

    The Apostle John was shown the New Jersulaem by an angel. His response was to fall down and worship the angel for the great things he heard and saw. However, the angel said

    Revelation 22:8-9

    8 And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things.

    9 Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.

    The patron saints should be treated no differently. They are one of us. Don't worship them, worship God.

    To disobey this teaching is to disobey God.

  • Wed Jun 17, 2009 1:57 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    Revelation 5:9-14

    9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

    10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

    11 And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;

    12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

    13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

    14 And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever.

  • Wed Jun 17, 2009 1:56 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    msnchris

    According to the Word of God which is blessed forever: The only one who is worthy to receive honor is the Lord Jesus Christ who is the creator of all things and is the one who died for our sins and rose from the dead to redeemed us from sin.

    Revelation 4:11 - "Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created."

    Revelation 5:12 - "Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing."

  • Wed Jun 17, 2009 1:37 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Who is greater Chris, Peter or Jesus Christ, the One who sanctified him?

  • Tue Jun 16, 2009 5:28 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 10

    Online,

    The statue of Saint Peter is no more Graven of an image than the statue of Lincoln in Wash DC. Statues are a part of American Culture just as much as Europe and the Holy Land. The Statue of Liberty comes to mind where people buy little icons of her because she represents Freedom.

    The Statue of Peter is not Graven because it is not a statue or image of a false God and we do not offer it worship. It is an image of a person who was the chosen leader of the Apostles. Having a statue of him reminds of us of him and him preaching the Gospel of Christ.

    Star2,

    It is not a sin to kiss the foot of some statue, as it is not a sin to kiss the hand of the Queen of England. It is no more a sin to bow to the Royal family as it is to bow to Holy person honoring them. Bowing, kissing the feet, the hands, the forehead are all human customs to show honor to someone.

    Yes, these Saints didn't die for my sins, but they did die for the Faith and if it wasn't for their resolute faithfulness in Christ and passing it down from generation to generation then none of us would know the Gospel today. God works through his Saints to bring others to the saving grace of Christ.

    These Saints should be honored, because it reminds us that God can use regular every day people like a fisherman or a Tax collector and with God's grace they can accomplish amazing things in Christ. These Saints brought the Good news to all of us.

    If it wasn't for these Saints dying for the faith, setting the example of what it means to be a Christian then we would not know of Jesus or about His saving love on the cross.

  • Mon Jun 15, 2009 4:19 pm Agree: 5   Disagree: 0

    (It is regular people who want to do it to show affection and honor of a great saint)


    Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

    Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; (Exodus 20:4, 5).

    Besides, the statue of Peter is actually Jupiter . . . being one of many gods taken from the Pantheon. Thousands of pilgrims kiss the foot of Jupiter while thinking it is the statue of Peter . . . sad.

  • Thu Jun 11, 2009 7:53 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 2

    "No thoughtful person who has any historical research background would ever venture to say that Baptists can trace themselves to the beginning of Christianity."

    Baptist is found in the Bible. After all, there was John the Baptist. Was it John the Catholic? NO! Peter the Catholic? NO! Luke the Catholic? NO! Although when Luke wasn't sure he acted like many Baptists since it would have been Luke warm thinking....

  • Thu Jun 11, 2009 12:52 pm Agree: 4   Disagree: 1

    >>>Yes, kissing the foot of Peter statue is a stupid practice...It is regular people who want to do it to show affection and honor of a great saint.<<<

    It is not a stupid practice msnchris70, it is a sinful practice.

    Affection, honor, reverance, loyalty, worship, adoration, belongs to the Lord Jesus Christ who died for your sins and rose from the dead so that you could have forgivness of sin and eternal life if you believe from your heart that He died for you, rose from the dead, and from your heart invite Him in to the be the Savior and Lord of your life.

    Peter and all the other patron saints of the RCC don't deserve any affection or honor because they did not die for your sins and rise from the dead so you could have forgiveness of sin and eternal life.

  • Thu Jun 11, 2009 3:28 am Agree: 3   Disagree: 1

    msnchris:


    >>> "Say no to Drugs and living in a fantasy world, and do some history homework. A library would be a good start."<<<

    Why don't you say "No" to the what the RCC teaches and practices and get the Word of God out and study to show yourself approved of God, rightly dividing the Word of Truth?

    The Word of God establishes what truth is (John 17:17). You don't need extra biblical teachings; if anything those teachings will be inundated with error.. All you need is the Holy Ghost. Jesus promised the disciples that the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost would teach them all things, and guide them into all truth (John 14:26, 16:13). These promises are for believers today as well. Don't give me this baloney that they don't apply to us as well. The Apostle John disagrees with you (1 John 2:27).

    Ask God in prayer to help you understand the Word of God. He will answer.

    John 14:26 - "But the Comforter, which is the HOLY GHOST, whom the Father will send in my name, he SHALL TEACH YOU ALL THINGS, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you."

    John 16:13 - "Howbeit when he, the SPIRIT OF TRUTH, is come, he WILL GUIDE YOU INTO ALL TRUTH: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come."

    1 John 2:27 - "But the anointing (Holy Ghost) which ye have received of him abideth in you, and YE NEED NOT THAT ANY MAN TEACH YOU: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him."

  • Wed Jun 10, 2009 10:05 pm Agree: 3   Disagree: 1

    farout, totally on target about the mixing of local religious practices with roman catholic practices!

  • Wed Jun 10, 2009 10:03 pm Agree: 3   Disagree: 1

    chris, plus wasn't Luther doing one of those "stupid" practices when God showed him just that, I believe he was climbing up the set of steps on his knees and stopping to pray on each step that led to the porch where Pontus Pilate brought Christ before the crowd and Christ supposedly walked up those same steps.

  • Wed Jun 10, 2009 9:32 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 0

    Mega churches can be a place that you can escape any responsibility, accountability. However Mega churches have the mower and money to make huge contrabutions in their communities, missions, and reach out to people in greater need than most smaller churches that are 150 members or below.

    When a Mega pastor is caught in a moral failure it has an effect that is broadcasted all over the world. Christians are put to shame, and Christ is put down by those who dislike or hate Christianity.

    I find the Roman Catholic Church to be very different in Central and South America. In These countries there is requirements or if you wish to say demands of the members that are totally unscriptually. There is a mixing of unchristian beliefs and the Roman Catholic doctrines. This combining of Christian doctrines and heather beliefs is done mainly to increase the money and to control the people. That's not acceptable and sure is not Christian.

  • Wed Jun 10, 2009 6:55 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 0

    Pius IX granted an indulgence of fifty days for kissing the foot of "Peter's" statue. It was more than stupid; it was seducing spirit that led him to do such a thing. Take heed that same spirit is still working.

  • Wed Jun 10, 2009 6:24 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 4

    Wilderness,

    Yes, kissing the foot of Peter statue is a stupid practice. It is not a doctrine nor is it even an official practice.
    It is regular people who want to do it to show affection and honor of a great saint.


    It is almost as stupid as how most pentecostals Think they are speaking in tongues or how they role around on the carpet or how all their fake healings take place to bring in more money or how Benny Hinn's come over is amazing, or how southern baptist were formed out of racism or how evangelicals have pop stars coming from their music ministry, or how your preachers are more about money than God, or how you guys keep splitting, dividing and watering down the faith of the Apostles.

  • Wed Jun 10, 2009 5:56 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    "We also can trace our beliefs and worship style to the beginning, which you cannot in a credible manner."

    Trace kissing the foot of a pope or of a statue of "Peter" where you want, it didn't come from God. That's of another spirit.

  • Wed Jun 10, 2009 4:47 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 4

    DRJ,

    You seem historically challenged and Biblically uninformed. I am a former Reformed Pastor who became Catholic. My parents were Baptists. No thoughtful person who has any historical research background would ever venture to say that Baptists can trace themselves to the beginning of Christianity. Such conjecture is akin to finding the Jesus ossuary as it is pure fantasy or hopeful thinking.

    Baptist did not exist prior to 1609 when the first Baptist church was formed in Amsterdam. Baptists find their root beginnings in England in the 16th Century.

    http://www.baptisthistory.org/baptistbeginnings.htm

    You can not historically, academically prove a continuity of person or belief to the early church, while non Religious secular Academics and non-Catholic Christian theologians unanimously agree that the Catholic Church was the first Church of Jesus Christ formed out of the apostles. We have a direct continuity to the Apostles and unlike you can actually follow each of our Bishops back to the beginning. It is called Apostolic succession. You might of heard about it, it is how Mathias became an Apostle. We also can trace our beliefs and worship style to the beginning, which you cannot in a credible manner.

    Say no to Drugs and living in a fantasy world, and do some history homework. A library would be a good start.

    Chas is right on every issue.

  • DRJ »
    Wed Jun 10, 2009 3:08 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    Chas, Nice try on your miss-informed attempt at Baptist history. FYI, the Baptists ARE the Church of Jesus Christ. We began worshipping Jesus at His command in the 1st Century. "Believe and be Baptized" is not a motto, but a sequence that separates true believers from your cult. Your history began in the 3rd Century when Rome became interested in sponsoring and then accepting Catholicism. The true Church is neither a government, nor a system. The Church of Jesus Christ IS and will always be the collective of born-again believers in Him. HE is the Head, not the pope! We confess our sins to HIM, not another papal representative. HE will come for HIS Church very soon. Get your head out of your Catholic history books and open your heart to the only True Savior, Jesus Christ!

  • Chas »
    Wed Jun 10, 2009 2:51 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 4

    Believer,

    Yes, by your Baptism you are born again into the family of God which is His Church. This one holy catholic and apostolic church you do have membership in the body of Christ, but you do not celebrate, worship or believe in the fullness of that Church.

    So, Yes all denominations who are Christian are members of this body, but not all enjoy the fullness of that membership as Catholics do. Orthodox experience much of the is fullness as there is very little that sepparates us, and much truth is still in the Reformation Churches but even less truth as we go down the line to the newer sects like Baptists and today's evangelicals.

    I will say I am thankful that Baptists are still morally traditional, unlike many Protestant churches that maintain our Liturgy.

  • Wed Jun 10, 2009 1:35 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    chas, we don't have the fulness of truth in our churches and roman catholic churches do, but we're not 2nd class Christians!

  • Wed Jun 10, 2009 1:28 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 1

    chas, the One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church is God's Universal Church to which every truly born-again believer becomes a member of the moment they are saved and it it is not the roman catholic church but includes believers of all denominations to include roman catholics.

  • Chas »
    Wed Jun 10, 2009 1:19 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 2

    Flagged as inappropriate. show Believer, You are mostly a reasonable person and I remember some of those shorter Masses, which were wrong. I actually know the entire Latin Mass, and that thing is all scripture. While how they move and pray on the altar is Tradition, 90% of their words are all from scripture. It is not arrogance how most of us respond. You are not a second rate Christian, since second rate is more of a belligerant slam. Non-Catholic Christians simply do not have the fullness of truth in their churches. I know many SBaptists and they are wonderful people who love the Lord and I see them at all our Traditional marriage rallies and at abortion clinics praying for the mothers and their babies. The problem is that Jesus gave us a Church, and it wasn't baptist. It was the one, holy, catholic and apoostolic church. You left us and you threw much of what the Apostles handed down to us. Over the years your Baptist Tradition has become even more watered down in many aspects by all your splits over the years. The baptist reaction to the Reformation was to throw the baby out with the Bath water. Even Reformation PRotestants attacked you for that. Calvin and Luther were against you and said that your interpretation of scripture was wrong. You are not a second rate christian, but you are a christian who is not in full communion with HIS Church. You lack the fullness of the Sacraments, Apostolic authority and Sacred Tradition to start off. hide

  • Wed Jun 10, 2009 12:50 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

    chas, 85% reading from the scriptures, maybe in your parish but the same wasn't true in the days of the latin mass when a portion was read from the epistles and a portion from the gospels and the rest was all ritual in which most people were left hanging because it was in latin. And on Sunday you got a short sermon which was mainly a be good, do good message. I remember we had one priest who could do the whole mass in around 12 minutes and trust me when people found out what mass he was doing on Sunday the place was packed. I mean thats what bothers me about a large majority of the roman catholic posters is their arrogance which says they see themselves as the only true Christians and the rest of us are 2nd class Christians at best. And yet the roman catholic church has just as many problem and luke warm members and leaders as any other denomination and to say the roman catholic church hasn't changed with the times is totally untrue as I pointed out to you on another site if not earlier in this one.

  • Chas »
    Wed Jun 10, 2009 12:17 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 3

    Flagged as inappropriate. show Daniel Paul, I am glad that your Church provides such seeker friendly place to get to know Christ. The problem is, Evangelical Mega Churches have dumbed down their Theology so much turning it in to a Motivational seminar and watering down Authentic Worship that when these people finally get to your church after a while they need to finally graduate and move on. The problem is, they keep moving on to the next fix. While they know Jesus, there is so much more discipleship that needs to be done. This could be said of any church too. My point is, the Evangelical Service you have on Sundays is basically a bible study with some music. Most of the Praise and Worship music is not solely about praising God. A lot of the music is self-directed and self-help spiritually up lifting music which is not praise nor is it Worship. It is not Worship in the proper sense. Evangelicals with every new church that is founded on a Charismatic preacher changes the definition of Worship to suit their personality. This trend has created the emerging church. Do you see the problem. The Catholic and Orthodox Churches have a "Liturgy" which came to us from the Apostles. Our services our almost identical. We have the same sacraments, the Mass or Divine Liturgy is 85% Reading from Scripture and the last 15% is the message and the celebration of the Eucharist(communion). We worship how the Apostles told our forefathers in the faith how to worship. St. Paul says keep the Traditions I have handed down to you, shun those not holding the Traditions I have passed down to you, how to assemble, how to break bread, etc. The Catholic and Orthodox Church services on Sunday are authentically Christian and this is how we are to Worship God. Evangelicals have made a mockery of Worship and turned it into a Bible study, which should take place during the week and not on Sunday. Sunday is for adoring and worshipping God, not for getting something out of it for yourself. Evangelicals should ask "What did I give to God this Sunday", rather than the normal "What did I get from the Sermon this week". Evangelical worship is predominantly self centered and self serving. The Mass and Divine Liturgy, handed down by the Apostles, is how God wants to be worshipped. hide

  • Tue Jun 09, 2009 11:00 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    "Hard to think of better business to rake in the dough."

    How ironic "trythinking" would make this statement. Our church has over 7000 people on Sunday. Our pastor finally did a sermon on money (I think he's only preached 3 in 15 years on money and the church). He stated that in the previous 4 weeks the average giving was $18.13 per person! (It may have been $13.18. It was a ways back.)

    When you look at how much it costs to staff childcare and do benevolence that isn't exactly raking in the dough....

  • Tue Jun 09, 2009 9:10 pm Agree: 5   Disagree: 2

    Hard to think of better business to rake in the dough.
    They're going to need buckets to collect all those green-backs.

  • Tue Jun 09, 2009 7:01 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

    "seeking that emotional fix and a New Charismatic preacher?"

    Is this not Obama?

  • Tue Jun 09, 2009 3:37 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 0

    Emphasis should never be on the size, wealth, or demographic makeup of churches professing to be followers of Our Lord. The emphasis is faithfulness to the word, righteousness, and a love and concern for the lost. Rich and lukewarm churches, as described in Revelation, are unfruitful and will be rejected by God.

  • Tue Jun 09, 2009 2:28 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Hey Chris and Chas. In our church about a third are members. They are loyal and committed to the church and our vision. The other two-thirds are the reason for our vision! Our 'mega-church' is an intake church that gets people who wouldn't normally go to church to understand we're not going to beat them. :D Our church is actually more of a missionary church right here at home.

    "an inch deep"...many of the people who come to our church had never even left the shore before! We want them to learn to swim before they get into the deep waters.

  • Chas »
    Tue Jun 09, 2009 2:08 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 4

    A mile long and an inch deep.

  • Tue Jun 09, 2009 1:31 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 5

    Yes, and did you point out that these types move from Church to church to church seeking that emotional fix and a New Charismatic preacher?

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