Reevangelizing the Church: Where Did We Go Wrong?

rj78 »

Thu Jun 18, 2009 6:26 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

Jehovahnissi-

One last time in reply:

Page 1: All you've done is make a list of definitions and then arbitrarily picked the definition of "world" that fits your thinking. God's chosen were the Jews, and he elected to save whosoever (John 3:16) among the gentiles and Jews whoever would receive Christ (John 1:9, Gal. 3:28, 29).

Page 2: Christ is the propitiation of all the people in the world (John 2:2, Matt. 11:28, Rev. 3:20). This does not encourage universalism (John 3:17, 18).

In Eph. 5:25-27 Paul definitely refers to the church. He does not say God has picked and chosen anyone-that decision is up to the world (John 1:9, Matt. 11;28, Rev. 3:20). Remember the parable of the sower and the seeds. Christ sowed the Gospel to all men, and died for all men.

Page 3: 1 Pet. 1:3 is a glorious promise, but irrelevant to your argument. Titus 2:14 is for the current church, and all those who would choose to trust in Christ. God is pleased with and elects whoever chooses to follow Christ.

Paul did not have to say Christ died for all men: John the Baptist did that(John 1:29). And John 6:44-45 are true, but God calls all men to repentance in Christ (John 16:8-10, Matt. 11:28, Rev. 3:20).

Remember that Christ died for all men (John 3:16, John 1:9, 1 John 2:2, 2 Pet. 3:8,9).

Tell me: if someone were to come to you for counseling, would you honestly say that you did not know whether or not Christ died for his sins?

If you enjoy splitting hairs, why not consider a job as a barber?

Jehovahnissi »

Wed Jun 17, 2009 10:23 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

Similarly in Titus 2:14 Paul describes the purpose of Christ's death like this: "He gave himself for us to redeem us from all iniquity and to purify for himself a people of his own who are zealous for good deeds." If Paul were an Arminian would he not have said, "He gave himself to redeem all men from iniquity and purify all men for himself"? But Paul says that the design of the atonement is to purify for Christ a people out from the world. This is just what John said in John 10:15; 11:51f; and Revelation 5:9.

Clearly the text DOES NOT say that Christ has died for ALL MEN. Rather, it says that Christ died for ALL WHO WOULD BELIEVE. It is only those who believe who have eternal life. This has significant implications for our gospel.

Only those whom God regenerates will actually come to faith in Christ since none desire to come on God's terms, apart from the action of His grace. The apostle likewise said, "...no one can say 'Jesus is Lord' apart from the Holy Spirit."


Jhn 15:19 If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.
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"I lay down my life for the sheep" John 10:15
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Jhn 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Jhn 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

Jhn 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

1 Pet 1:3 3 "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance that is imperishable..."

Jehovahnissi »

Wed Jun 17, 2009 10:23 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

Propitiated sins cannot be punished. Otherwise propitiation loses its meaning. Therefore if Christ is the propitiation for all the sins of every individual in the world, they cannot be punished, and must be saved. But John does not believe in such universalism (John 5:29). Therefore it is very unlikely that 1 John 2:2 teaches that Jesus is the propitiation of every person in the world.

Mark 10:45, in accord with Revelation 5:9,does not say that Jesus came to ransom all men. It says, "For the Son of man also came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many."

Similarly in Matthew 26:28 Jesus says, "This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins."

Hebrews 9:28, "So Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him." (See also 13:20; Isaiah 53:11-12.)

One of the clearest passages on the intention of the death of Christ is Ephesians 5:25-27. Here Paul not only says that the intended beneficiary of the death of Christ is the Church, but also that the intended effect of the death of Christ is the sanctification and glorification of the church. This is the truth we want very much to preserve: that the cross was not intended to give all men the opportunity to save themselves, but was intended to actually save the church.

Paul says, "Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, that he might present the church to himself in splendor."

con't

Jehovahnissi »

Wed Jun 17, 2009 10:22 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

rj,


John 3:16 -

"WORLD" ---Outline of Biblical Usage ---
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http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G2889&t=KJV
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1) an apt and harmonious arrangement or constitution, order, government
2) ornament, decoration, adornment, i.e. the arrangement of the stars,'the heavenly hosts', as the ornament of the heavens. 1 Pet. 3:3
3) the world, the universe
4) the circle of the earth, the earth
5) the inhabitants of the earth, men, the human family
6) the ungodly multitude; the whole mass of men alienated from God, and therefore hostile to the cause of Christ
7) world affairs, the aggregate of things earthly
a) the whole circle of earthly goods, endowments riches, advantages, pleasures, etc, which although hollow and frail and fleeting, stir desire, seduce from God and are obstacles to the cause of Christ
8) any aggregate or general collection of particulars of any sort
a) the Gentiles as contrasted to the Jews (Rom. 11:12 etc)

*******b) of believers only, John 1:29; 3:16; 3:17; 6:33; 12:47 1 Cor. 4:9; 2 Cor. 5:19*****************
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1 John 2:2, "He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world."

The "whole world" refers to the children of God scattered throughout the whole world.If "the whole world" referred to every individual in the world, we would be forced to say that John is teaching that all people will be saved, which he does not believe (Revelation 14:9-11). The reason we would be forced to say this is that the term propitiation refers to a real removal of wrath from sinners. When God's wrath against a sinner is propitiated, it is removed from that sinner. And the result is that all God's power now flows in the service of his mercy, with the result that nothing can stop him from saving that sinner.

con't

Daniel Paul »

Wed Jun 17, 2009 3:39 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

"Mark Driscoll of Mars Hill Church in Seattle is a Calvinist. He thinks Calvinists and Armenians should worship together. I agree."

Our pastor is also a Calvinist. We also have a wide range of beliefs about the end times. Still, our focus is on being ready for His return and not being concerned with when. Most everything that Jesus spoke of concerning the end times focused on being ready.

Daniel Paul »

Wed Jun 17, 2009 3:35 pm Agree: 3   Disagree: 1

"Preachers don't preach about that anymore, I don't know why."

Too many preachers don't want to offend anyone so they don't preach the Gospel which even the Bible says is offensive. We have become a society of people who don't want anyone to tell us we are wrong. Each person has become the one who defines what is right and wrong for them instead of using the Bible to define what is right and wrong.

Case and point...I've been asking the pro-gay folks here to find a verse in the Bible that says you can be in a right relationship with God and be gay at the same time. They define right and wrong based on themselves and not on the Word of God.

rj78 »

Wed Jun 17, 2009 9:59 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 2

jehivahnissi-

Once again you are misrepresenting the evangelical church.

In the Assemblies of God, for example, we have a clear definition of the Gospel. It is more than being born again (as Christ commanded, by the way) and living moral lives. Our goal is to fulfill the Great Commission. The A/G is the fastest growing denomination in the world, especially in South America.

I'm not bragging. I have had the privilege of doing missions work alongside fine Catholic brothers and sisters.

Decision theology? Read Acts 17:30.

The Moral Majority was not founded to refocus the church on social issues. It was to be salt and light in the politcal arena, while continung to preach the Gospel.

Premillenialism is the most thorough way of discussing the end times. It answers all relevant questions about Christ's return.

Do not judge the use of charismatic gifts in the hcurch. You do not want to speak against what God is doing.

Oh, and TULIP is questionable theology. Limited atonement, especially, is heresy.

Read John 3:16. For God so loved the WORLD, that he sent His only begotten son, that WHOSOEVER believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

See also Matt. 11:28, John 1:9, 2 Peter 3:9, 1 John 2:2, Rev. 3:20.

Mark Driscoll of Mars Hill Church in Seattle is a Calvinist. He thinks Calvinists and Armenians should worship together. I agree.

Homosexual Man »

Tue Jun 16, 2009 2:08 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

Flagged as inappropriate. show Hman wrote: "Y'shua was very clear that the law was being abused by those in power to keep themselves rich. This is *why* they killed Him." to which believer replied: "hman, God's laws were not being abusive, it was the religious leaders misinterpretation and enforcement of God's laws that were being abusive." believer, I am so happy that for once you have allowed yourself to agree with me! hide

believer »

Tue Jun 16, 2009 1:19 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

hman, God's laws were not being abusive, it was the religious leaders misinterpretation and enforcement of God's laws that were being abusive. Christ said of Himself said He did not come to do away with the Law but rather to fulfill the Law.

Homosexual Man »

Tue Jun 16, 2009 10:19 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

Flagged as inappropriate. show "Y'shua and all of His disciples followed the law and guess how successful their church became???" Actually Y'shua was very clear that the law was being abused by those in power to keep themselves rich. This is *why* they killed Him. MARK 2: SABBATH MADE FOR MAN, NOT MAN FOR THE SABBATH 23One Sabbath Jesus was going through the grainfields, and as his disciples walked along, they began to pick some heads of grain. 24The Pharisees said to him, "Look, why are they doing what is unlawful on the Sabbath?" 27Then he said to them, "The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. 28So the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath." MARK 7 TRADITIONS OF MEN 5So the Pharisees and teachers of the law asked Jesus, "Why don't your disciples live according to the tradition of the elders instead of eating their food with 'unclean' hands?" 6He replied, "Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you hypocrites; as it is written: " 'These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. 7They worship me in vain; their teachings are but rules taught by men.'[b] 8You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to the traditions of men." JOHN 2 - A WHIP OF CORDS John 2:15 So he made a whip out of cords, and drove all from the temple area, both sheep and cattle; he scattered the coins of the money changers and overturned their tables. JOHN 7: HEALING ON THE SABBATH John 7:23 If a man on the sabbath day receive circumcision, that the law of Moses should not be broken; are ye angry at me, because I have made a man every whit whole on the sabbath day? hide

idietolive »

Mon Jun 15, 2009 9:15 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 2

When you stopped teaching the law. Torah commands this and the church has forsaken it. Y'shua said " If you love me, keep my commandments. There is more than 10 and that's where the church has failed. Without the law, the people have no structure or guideline in their life. Y'shua and all of His disciples followed the law and guess how successful their church became???

tpique1 »

Mon Jun 15, 2009 6:03 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

Oh boy Mr Craven, you're opening up a HUGE can of worms here.

The problems with Christianity stem back well past Mr Finney. It goes back to the early Church. There have ALWAYS been divisions whether they were from outside by Judaisers attempting to bring the early converts back under the law or Chaldeans and Gnostics attempting to bring in heresies into the Body.

But to lay it at Finney's feet is very near sighted.

The fact is, WE in this generation are the ones responsible for THIS generation. We can't lay anything at anyone else's feet but our own and Lord knows we have a lot of sins to contend with here in the present - humanism, secularism, worldliness, covetousness, greed, lust, and the list goes on have all invaded the Church.

The modern Western Church has done more to dismantle the Gospel than any other generation prior because of her harlotry with the world and the lust for power and pleasure.

It's as though the modern Western Church is completely devoid of understanding of where it truly stands and how far it has fallen.

We have shut down our brains and exchanged reason for "easy believism"; we've sacrificed holiness for worldliness and cultural acceptance; we've sacrificed worship and communion with God for religion, technology, and quick fix doctrines.

Much of what we see today is not because of Charles Finney, it's because we, like every generation before us, thinks that our dependency on self is far more rewarding than dependency on the Lord.

When the Holy Spirit is no longer welcome in our churches to move and reign as He chooses, (not as we choose to dictate He should move), then men have a tendency to replace Him with their own works.

"Unless the Lord builds the house, he labors in vain who tries to build it."

We have been laboring in vain, because we refuse to do as 2 Chronicles 7:14 says: "if my people who are called by my name humble themselves, and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and heal their land."

If we won't read His Word, we won't know His Word; if we don't know His Word, how can we reach those around us with the Word; if we can't reach those around us with the Word, because we don't know the Word, then what hope do they have?

We should see the enemy; the enemy is us.

loucass »

Mon Jun 15, 2009 4:04 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

making a decision or getting saved is the only way to get to heaven, but it's only a start. The goal of the gospel is to become more like Jesus, or to be holy.
Preachers don't preach about that anymore, I don't know why.

believer »

Mon Jun 15, 2009 1:50 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

In essence I think he is speaking to the issue of cheap grace theology where the key focus is on not going to hell rather than coming into a personal relationship with God not only for the purpose of being saved from hell, but more importantly to develop a relationship with God that will allow Him to allow us to join Him in doing His work/will and more specifically to join Him in fulfilling His Great Commission. In the spring and fall many Baptist churches hold revival services which speak little if any about revival, in reality evangelism is the focus as opposed to revival and a successful revival is one where a number of people got saved rather than a number of Christian people became broken and surrendered before God and were desiring to become the person God wants them to be so He will allow them to join them in doing His work/will.

Homosexual Man »

Mon Jun 15, 2009 12:54 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

Flagged as inappropriate. show "The gospel according to revivalism is all about you and its only real implication is eschatological: when you die you get to go to heaven." Thank you so much! hide