Updated 11:59 pm.EST, Fri November 20, 2009

Church|Wed, Aug. 19 2009 10:25 AM EDT

Lutherans Open Debate on Sexuality Statement

By Lillian Kwon|Christian Post Reporter

Correction appended

  • elca
    (Photo: ELCA)
    Voting members of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America open discussions on resolutions on Tuesday, Aug. 18, 2009, during the Churchwide Assembly at the Minneapolis Convention Center.
  • ELCA
    (Photo: ELCA)
    Members of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America attend a plenary session during the Aug. 17-23 Churchwide Assembly at the Minneapolis Convention Center.
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Debate on a proposed social statement on human sexuality began Tuesday at the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America's Churchwide Assembly.

Opponents of the statement argued that adopting it would constitute abandonment of Scripture.

"This is God's law and we cannot change it," said Roy Gibbs of the Northwestern Ohio Synod, according to the ELCA News Service. "Everyone of us here today knows what is right and what is wrong. Our father has written it on our hearts and on our minds."

This week at the Aug. 17-23 meeting at the Minneapolis Convention Center, voting members are considering the "Human Sexuality: Gift and Trust" statement, which was drafted by a task force and released in February. The document addresses social structures, trust in relationships, cohabitation, sexual exploitation, abuse, and homosexuality, the latter of which has drawn the most attention and controversy.

The report acknowledges that there is neither a consensus nor an emerging one in the denomination on homosexuality and also states that the denomination cannot responsibly consider any changes to its policies unless it is able and willing in some way to recognize lifelong, monogamous, same-gender relationships. At the same time, it recommends that the ELCA commit itself to finding ways to recognize such relationships.

The document was formally introduced on Tuesday to the 1,045 voting members at the biennial assembly. Task force chair the Rev. Peter Strommen said he doesn't expect all ELCA members to agree with the social statement in its entirety and recognized how heavily the matter has weighed on the denomination.

"We can no longer assume that people in our society, or even many in the church for that matter, hold a shared understanding of Christianity's core beliefs, let alone those of Lutheran ethics," he said, as reported by the denomination’s news service.

"As important as issues over human sexuality might be, the first order of business for the ELCA is its missional challenge. We cannot afford to be inarticulate about what is most important in regard to our faith," he added.

The social statement emphasizes two principles – trust and bound conscience – which were again highlighted by task force members at the assembly.

The Rev. Timothy Wengert, a member of the task force, explained to voting members that conscience-bound belief does not mean being bound to a particular interpretation of Scripture. Instead, he said, "it means that the very people who hold different, opposing viewpoints on a particular moral issue based upon their understanding of Scripture, tradition and reason must recognize the bound conscience of other, of their neighbor who disagrees with them, and then work in such ways as not to cause that other person to reject the faith and fellowship in Word and sacrament."

While proponents of the document maintain that it is consistent with the biblical command to care for one's neighbor and build trusting relationships, others argue Scripture does not support homosexual behavior.

The Rev. Paull Spring of State College, Pa., chair of the conservative Lutheran CORE (Coalition for Reform), doesn't believe the churchwide assembly should be voting on the matter at all. Continue »

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  • Tue Aug 25, 2009 8:36 am Agree: 2   Disagree: 0

    dan, as I said why do you continue to bring your roman catholic jibberish to these discussions which for the most part are totally false and have nothing to do with the issue being discussed. And once again the roman catholic church is by no means the One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church, it is simply a manmade denomination!

  • Tue Aug 25, 2009 12:19 am Agree: 3   Disagree: 0

    Dan,

    Your reasoning is a bit skewed my friend; the issue of homosexuality within some Protestant circles has not been caused by Sola Scriptura. If anything, it is exactly the opposite; this issue can be attributed to textual criticism . . . an assault upon the Scriptures; the teaching that it is nothing more than another piece of human literature. Some of these churches have been duped into accepting a cultural gospel rather than standing upon a “thus saith the Lord.” I find it interesting that you are casting stones at Protestant churches when Catholicism has been inundated with lawsuits because of sexual abuse. If it weren’t for the highly publicized media coverage, your church would continue to shuffle these sex offenders from one parish to another. Also, your continual claim that Jesus founded Catholicism is really not taken seriously by those who have read the New Testament since most of Catholicism’s doctrines and practices are nowhere recorded within its pages.

  • Mon Aug 24, 2009 11:46 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 2

    - "discover how absolutely VITAL doctrine"

    What for - this is not Catholicism. Catholics including the Pope (how nice of me) know Jesus is doctine (the trick is knowing what He is saying, and he left that responsiblility to His First Bishops, St Peter and the Twevle Apostles and their successors (even though Prophet thinks they are the Thirteen Apostles)

    - "that works do not get you to heaven-"

    What for? This is not Catholicism.

    "This verse is VITAL to the understanding that Christians are NOT saved by works nor is faith attained by works. Instead, ... (this is Sola Scriptura and therefore false since it is a man made [Luther] device extra-biblical invented in the 16th century, and since there were no Scripture (NT) until well after Jesus died in 28 A.D. no one had any Bible to "Sola" about; it was purely word-of-mouth (Holy Tradtion) until the full Bible arrived in 397 A.D. and approved by the Catholic Church) it shows in verse 10 that those who are new creatures are CREATED to do good works AFTER faith, repentance, and salvation. Don't like this verse? Here's another:

    How about. "Faith without works is dead." St James (First Bishop of Jerusalem) You missed the important one; I am disappointed.

    You also need more knowledge of what the Catholic Church teaches because your meanderings are off the mark by a ton.

  • Mon Aug 24, 2009 11:33 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 2

    "cfarevival" Hey VivialSeafarer; I had a great thought. You should marry that other "biblical machine gunner" on this site, Youvanianisti or something like that. Just blast them with scripture; not bad until you start misinterpreting it.
    I worked with a Lt Col once and every time you asked him a question (like what shingles do you use to do a new roof?); he would spend that afternoon in the library and on my desk the next morning would be 40+ books and he would say, "Your answer is in there."

  • Mon Aug 24, 2009 11:25 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 2

    "you do not understand the grace of God. The bible leaves no room for a pope-ish interpretation of Christianity. Go read 1 & 2 Timothy, Titus, 1-3 John, and many other NT books and discover how"......

    My answer to all this confusing and illogical nonsense is huh? But I knew intuitively that "this must be posted by a woman..like Prophet (she makes no sense either) and this is why women were not chosed to be an Apostle since they are too emotional to think logically...
    But do not be disheartend. I did find it humorous.

  • Mon Aug 24, 2009 11:17 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 2

    On line: "This is what we have been trying to share with you; the Word of God is the final authority in matters of faith and practice . . .

    Agree. What you miss is it is not the Word of God that is wrong, it is your "interpretation" of the Word of God that is wrong; why do you thing so many Protestant churches fall into error after error...a month it was gay marriage (their interpretation with Sola Scriptura [a man-made extra-biblical tradition)...then it was gay ministers...next who knows what monkey sex will be approved by all with Sola'ing. You know only Jesus has the authority to "found" a church, not men, Martin Luther, Calvin, Zwingli, - they are just mere men. Jesus' truth is ONE and only ONE Church is needed by Him; 30,000 all spewing specious dogmas is a bit much (as one of you Protestants posted a while back after reading the Anglican and Lutheran demise, said, "if this keeps on I am going back to the Catholic Church." Of course, One Jesus, one doctrine.

    Believer: "dan, must you always spew nothing but roman catholic rhetoric which adds little if nothing to these discussions. And once again God's Word clearly teaches that works are not required for a person to be saved, but are a result of one's salvation!"

    Ah, Believer. Outside of Prophet he is the furthest from the truth on this site. When Jesus founded His One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church He said, "Whoever hears you hears Me." One founder, one belief, one doctrine. And that is why you get Roman Catholic rhetoric - Jesus truth and I will always give you His truth. I see you are using the word "clearly" again, a sure give-away that you know not what you say nor do you believe it like Dr. Scott Hahn (former Evangelical) when he said, he reached the point that he could no longer teach things he had once believed because he realized he was teaching "error."
    Believer - you have a blind spot and like, Martin Luther, tries to get rid of St. James, First Bishop of Jerusalem, because he exposes your false beliefs each time and it makes you feel so uncomfortable. "Faith without works is dead." You're right only on here (clearly) since it only contains five words and yet you Sola'it and squirm out of the truth.

    Who started this thread?; I love it - so many errors on it to put to bed - it is like a "candy store of bad doctrine."

  • Sat Aug 22, 2009 9:31 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 0

    Dan said, "Doctrine doesn't change."

    This is what we have been trying to share with you; the Word of God is the final authority in matters of faith and practice . . .

  • Sat Aug 22, 2009 3:47 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    dan, must you always spew nothing but roman catholic rhetoric which adds little if nothing to these discussions. And once again God's Word clearly teaches that works are not required for a person to be saved, but are a result of one's salvation!

  • Sat Aug 22, 2009 3:44 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    chris, maybe you should consider how many of the teachings of God's Word the roman catholic church has abandoned before you start wondering what other denominations will abandon God's Word on this issue.

  • Thu Aug 20, 2009 11:49 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Hiskid: When I read Bryan's statement and then yours I think you misunderstood what he was saying. I think (think being the operative word here) he was saying that they understood FROM reading scripture that healing on the Sabbath was wrong. I don't think he meant that they thought reading scripture on the Sabbath was wrong.

  • Thu Aug 20, 2009 4:31 pm Agree: 3   Disagree: 0

    bryan90new

    You said, "Before Jesus's time, many believers believed that one should not work during the Sabath from reading the Word of God. In a way, Jesus told them exactly what a lot of people here are saying: "Your interpretation is wrong; healing on the Sabbath is not a sin."

    Your statement is incorrect. It was never considred work to read the Word of God. It is read and has been read every Sabbath in every synagogue world wide on Sabbath! Reading from the sacred Scriptures is a form of worship. Yes, they tried to persecute Him for healing on Sabbath, for picking grains of wheat on Sabbath as well, but the actual six commandments of Sabbath are a far cry from the more than 1400 Rabbis added.

    As for the wisdom of men, we cannot count onthat at all. We must rely on the Wrod of God only. when we do this, and pray for HIS wisdom, he is faithful and will give us the right understanding. It is when we listen to the "wisdom" of men that our theology gets into serious trouble.

  • Thu Aug 20, 2009 2:04 pm Agree: 3   Disagree: 0

    Dan,

    you do not understand the grace of God. The bible leaves no room for a pope-ish interpretation of Christianity. Go read 1 & 2 Timothy, Titus, 1-3 John, and many other NT books and discover how absolutely VITAL doctrine is. 2 John says not to even welcome into our homes, those who preach false Christs and teach false ways.

    And if you understood the New Covenant and Regeneration, then you would understand that works do not get you to heaven! However, a true Christian has works. Those who are lost,who think they are saved because they do good works--the works that they do are bad fruit from bad trees and they will be cut down and burned. Read these verses:

    Ephesians 2:8-10 says, "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them."

    This verse is VITAL to the understanding that Christians are NOT saved by works nor is faith attained by works. Instead, it shows in verse 10 that those who are new creatures are CREATED to do good works AFTER faith, repentance, and salvation. Don't like this verse? Here's another:

    Titus 3:5 "He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit, whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. This is a trustworthy statement; and concerning these things I want you to speak confidently, so that those who have believed God will be careful to engage in good deeds. These things are good and profitable for men."

    If we aren't saved by good works, then good works happen because we are saved. But there is everlasting torment for those who think that by their own goodness can enter into a kingdom which NO MAN, save the Christ, can enter into by their works, because the bible says, "There are none who are righteous; no, not one."

  • Thu Aug 20, 2009 1:44 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 6

    "Throughitall quoted a revelation scripture about ‘not adding to this book’..." But Luther added to Jesus' Our Father, "For thine is the kingdom and the power and the gloryt forever." Jesus never said this. So what's the beef? hide

  • Thu Aug 20, 2009 1:43 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 4

    "changing church doctrine by means of a council of elders has been going on since the Council of Nissea... Doctrine doesn't change. All that there is in the deposit of faith ... the doctrine is interpreted by the successors of Peter and the Apostles who were given the authority...by Jesus: "Whosoever you bind on earth shall be bound in Heaven; whatsoever you loose upon earth shall be loosed in Heaven. Whoever hears you...hears Me. hide

  • Thu Aug 20, 2009 1:42 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 3

    "Since we live in a time when the law of God is written on our hearts it is impossible to know what the hearts of earlier humans were like."

    Not really. Nothing is impossible with God. All one has to do is to read the Patristic Fathers, the historians of the time, the grafitti on the catacumbus walls, the writings of the pagans who tell us what they think of Christians (thought they were cannibals). And much literature is available of earlier Christian times. Those that do not know history are doomed to repeat its mistakes.

  • Thu Aug 20, 2009 1:36 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 6

    "Faith by works? NO!"

    The "innerant" bible says, "Faith without works is dead." St.James, the Apostle, who walked daily with Jesus...when did Jesus tell you NO!?

  • Thu Aug 20, 2009 1:33 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 4

    "Is there a chance that I have misinterpreted the bible? OF COURSE!

    Which is why I always remind myself that whatever I believe in, I don't expect others to believe in, and I don't claim it to be the absolute truth. Through the wisdom and experience granted to me, I have interpreted it as such; others can have their own interpretation which I can't say for sure is wrong. As I live, as God pours more wisdom and experience into me, I revise my interpretation of the bible."

    Thus the error of the false doctrine of Sola Scriptura (SS) is revealed. Thus under SS no one knows anything.

  • Thu Aug 20, 2009 1:31 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 4

    "despite what Rome may have said."

    Rome is a city; cities cannot speak. This is a Logic 101 error and a flagrant one. English as a second language may help here.

  • Thu Aug 20, 2009 1:29 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 4

    "The Bible is the Word of God, inerrant and true."

    True depending on the bible; it's the "interpreters" under SS that are wrong; thus rendering the Word of God useless.

  • Thu Aug 20, 2009 1:18 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    online4him and other Christian brothers and sisters; if you guys would like, please email me at

    havok15x(a)hotmail.com (a) = @

    I would love to stay in contact with you guys!

  • Thu Aug 20, 2009 12:24 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    ihs,

    Well said . . . I agree.

  • IHS »
    Thu Aug 20, 2009 12:22 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 0

    The Bible is the Word of God, inerrant and true.

    These Lutherans didn't mis-interpret the scriptures they simply did not test their beliefs against the scriptures. By the Word of God, they will find their beliefs are contrary to the Word of God.

  • Thu Aug 20, 2009 11:20 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

    Gibbons,

    Is there a chance that I have misinterpreted the bible? OF COURSE!

    Which is why I always remind myself that whatever I believe in, I don't expect others to believe in, and I don't claim it to be the absolute truth. Through the wisdom and experience granted to me, I have interpreted it as such; others can have their own interpretation which I can't say for sure is wrong. As I live, as God pours more wisdom and experience into me, I revise my interpretation of the bible.

    There is a chance that God has preserved the Bible and has done such that ever word in it today is literally His words.

    But I think there is also a chance that God simply provided us with the Bible and wants us to treat it like any story book - to learn from the core values and not take its words literally. If Jesus preached in parables, God might intend the bible to be a parable itself.

    Again, I do not have the authority to say which is right and which is wrong and I understand that there will always be division in which way to go. However, what I strongly believe in is that whichever way we choose to go, however many differences we have, lets try out best to live in harmony.

    Many do tell me that "Christians do live in harmony, but we have to purge this world of sins!" I can't exactly say that that is entirely wrong as well. But I believe that if it were Jesus, he would simply inform the world of their sins, and then move on with his preachings instead of fueling fights, campaigns and dissension.

    I am in an extremely difficult position, (take the same-sex marriage thing as an example), on one hand, I am telling the Christians that they should take the high road and be the first to stop the fight; on the other hand, I am telling the lgbt activists to take the high road and find other approaches for equity. In essence, all I wish for is that God's creation can indeed take the high road and live in harmony.

    When we get slapped on the right cheek, not only should we not condemn the person, we offer our left cheek.

  • Thu Aug 20, 2009 10:55 am Agree: 2   Disagree: 0

    "Same thing as when we ‘changed’ our definition of scripture to allow for a round earth"

    Really? Where in the Bible does it say that the earth is flat? In actuality, it says the opposite, despite what Rome may have said.

  • Thu Aug 20, 2009 10:50 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    chicago24 » Wed Aug 19, 2009 6:04 pm : 0 : 4 Flag
    They better not be serving shrimp at these meetings. That would constitute an abandonment of scripture as well.


    Oh, if you only knew what 'fulfillment of Scripture' was...

  • Thu Aug 20, 2009 10:47 am Agree: 2   Disagree: 0

    ... continued...

    #5. 1 John 2:15, "Do not love the world nor the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the father is not in Him." Those who's passion is the world and the things of it (as a lifestyle) are not regenerated because they, like the rich young ruler, have not truly turned to follow Christ.

    #6. 1 John 2:23, "Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father; the one who confesses the Son has the Father also." Those who deny that Jesus is the Christ or who diminish His position, whether by placing others before Him or with Him OR by saying He is less than what He is (the Christ, Son of the Living God) are not regenerate. This is why many will not enter, because they deny the Son by creating their own version of Him.

    #7. 1 John 3:3, "And everyone who has this hope fixed on Him purifies himself, just as He is pure." Those who have their hope fixed on Jesus will seek their purification. Not only are they sensitive and repentant of their sins, they seek to rid themselves of it entirely. This of course, will not occur fully until Christ returns and we are resurrected, becoming like Him! HALLELUJAH!

    #8. 1 John 4:13, "By this we know that we abide in Him and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit." The Spirit of God within us (manifesting itself through good fruit on good trees and other ways God ordains) is evidence of our true conversion! If the Spirit has not regenerated us, then we are not saved.

    These are NOT a checklist. However, if your lifestyle, after your supposed conversion does not exemplify these characteristics, then you MUST examine yourself to see if you are indeed in the faith.

  • Thu Aug 20, 2009 10:47 am Agree: 4   Disagree: 0

    Shep,

    You misunderstand, the law of God is NOT written on anyone's heart except those who are saved--truly regenerated--truly followers of Christ. Everyone else does what they think is right in their own eyes. The verses that I posted are from the NEW COVENANT.

    NOT EVERYONE has the law of God written on their hearts. That's that.

    How do you know if you have God's law written on your heart? Because you are truly saved. How do you know you are saved? Because you believed. How do you know you believe? Because your life has the characteristics that are shown in 1 John! Go read that book! Examine yourself.

    Here are the characteristics in 1 John. Go read the whole book.

    #1. 1 John 1:6-7, "If we say we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth, but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Cleanses us from all sin." This means that we cannot claim to be Christians and yet our lives reflect the lives of those who are unsaved. If we are worldly and do not know God and do not desire Him and are not known by Jesus, then we are in darkness and NOT Christians.

    #2. 1 John 1:8 & 10, "If we say we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us...If we say that we have not sinned, we made Him a liar and His word is not in us." Those who claim to be Christians cannot claim to be sinless, but their flesh has NOT been perfected yet and they are NOT perfect. True Christians are SENSITIVE to sin in their lives. This is part of God giving us a heart of flesh (found in Ezekiel 36). This fact is exemplified by 1 John 1:9, "If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."

    #3. 1 John 2:4, "By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments." Those who's lifestyles reflect keeping the commandments of Jesus (a habitual keeping of His commandments) will inherit eternal life. Faith by works? NO! Those who are truly regenerated cannot help but exemplify this characteristic. Those who's lifestyles reflect a habitual rejection or disobedience of Jesus' commandments are not saved.

    #4. 1 John 2:9, "The one who says he is in the Light and yet hates his brother is in the darkness until now." Those who are Christians and hate their brothers (not taking care of the brethren that they know and helping them in their time of need) are not regenerated either. Love is a quintessential proof of our conversion. This love is a love that completely sacrifices itself for the benefit of others. This is so precious to His children!

  • Thu Aug 20, 2009 1:36 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    Flagged as inappropriate. show Since we live in a time when the law of God is written on our hearts it is impossible to know what the hearts of earlier humans were like. Think about it, most everyone agrees that such things such as murder and rape are evil. I wonder, did ancient peoples believe that? Or is it something we only now see as evil because God’s law is in our hearts? I agree that it is our understanding that has changed over the years. The Bible is as true today as it was a thousand years ago. Amen. People get confused as if it goes back and forth, “We are no longer under the law and yet Christ fulfilled the law. We cannot be saved by works, only through grace born of faith, but faith without works is dead.” It seems to, for one not touched by the Spirit. Once this happens it becomes clearer. If you have the Spirit, the law of God written on your heart, living the law (after a fashion, still eat pork) becomes natural. The works are a by-product of the faith. One cannot exist without the other. If you say you have faith, but have no works, it is a lie. Faith demands the works because the faith is in being a child of God and striving for Christ-like behavior…which produces the works. hide

  • Thu Aug 20, 2009 1:23 am Agree: 6   Disagree: 0

    Flagged as inappropriate. show GF, Hello; I too have a couple of thoughts concerning the relationship between law and grace. Christians tend to lean too much on one or the other (law or grace); some are legalistic while others preach what has been termed cheap grace (Antinomianism). Personally, I do not believe that the moral law has been changed; what has changed is the hearts of believers. It is no longer written on tables of stone but upon our hearts. Now I whole heartedly agree that the law is not the means of salvation (works) . . . Besides man is incapable of obedience to any law apart from the grace and presence of the Holy Spirit. It is the Holy Spirit who compels us to obey by God’s grace. When Christ said, “Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil” (Matthew 5:17) . . . He was not abrogating the moral law as some propose but simply lived a life of perfect obedience to the law in our behalf. To suggest otherwise ignores the little word “but” which makes the two ideas virtually synonymous. Consider Isaiah 42:21 – “The LORD is well pleased for his righteousness' sake; he (Christ) will magnify the law, and make it honourable.” This is the same message that Paul clearly reiterated when he said, “Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law” (Romans 3:31). These verses indicate that there is a definite balance between law (obedience) and grace. Thanks hide

  • Thu Aug 20, 2009 12:26 am Agree: 2   Disagree: 0

    Flagged as inappropriate. show bryan90new posted, "Jesus told them exactly what a lot of people here are saying: "Your interpretation is wrong; healing on the Sabbath is not a sin."" What He was saying was not some of the religious leaders had taken some of the Law too far, placing too great a burden on the people that they themselves wouldn't carry. He also said that He came to fulfill the Law, that is replace it, replace the Old Covenant contract between God and the Nation of Israel, with the New Covenant between God and anyone who believes in Jesus and repents of his/her sins. Christians under the New Covenant are not bound by the hundreds of laws that comprise the Law, including the Sabbath, but are ruled by Grace. "The problem is, I don't think anybody here can claim that they have the authority of Jesus and is able to provide a final and accurate interpretation of the bible." Would God, who chose to have written for our benefit, all of the Holy Bible, from His Creation in Genesis to His Creation of a New Heaven and a New Earth in Revelation, filled with lessons and guidance that if we follow them will save our lives - would the Almighty God who destroyed the world in Noah's time by the greatest flood the earth has ever seen, not make sure His Book got into our hands, complete and clear for us to hear His Message to All Mankind? Your statement is an often repeated one by those who are reluctant to open up their hearts to Jesus and repent from their sins. This self-delusion allows them to think they can do what Satan told Eve she could do - choose for yourself what is good and what is evil - and you won't die. "All I suggest is that perhaps we should open up our minds and not be as stubborn as the pharisees, and perhaps ask ourselves: "have we misinterpreted the bible? how should we understand it?"" You used the word "we". Do you say this because you want US to change our minds and agree with you that your sins are not sins - or do you say this because you believe YOU have misinterpreted the Bible for selfish reasons and you are now going to repent from your sins? hide

  • Thu Aug 20, 2009 12:05 am Agree: 3   Disagree: 2

    Flagged as inappropriate. show cfarevival - I really liked this post. I haven't been here long, but I've begun feeling very discouraged. And I admit, the level of depraved posts has sometimes affected my judgment - not my honesty. It was refreshing to hear another voice and I had to read the complete post. There are others here too, who speak God's Word. I wish we could have a forum without those who are only haters of God lying in their filth. ------------------------------------------------------ "Why do people at that conference disagree?" It's because a long time ago, a small number joined this church and after being on several committees, they helped to create a new committee to study modernizing the church. After a while, they began talking to as many of the other members as possible, identifying those who were willing to listen and focusing their attention on them, eventually convincing them using all the tactics used on the public since the 1970's. The members who would never listen to the exploratory committee members will vote against it, and if they lose the vote, they will be faced with the decision to leave the church they've loved so long to stay on God's side. For Satan will have this church. It's the endgame now and the Radical Feminist/Homosexual Alliance are panicking to get all their goals cemented into law, before more of us wake up to all of their covert tactics since the 1970's, including taking over some of our Church Committees, where they politic and spread their propaganda. Before it became obvious to us that these organizations were crumbling, the Radical Feminist/Homosexual Alliance had FOR YEARS been replacing the foundations' concrete structures with filthy sand. But it's okay. God will consolidate His organization. His people will be together, and not spread amongst apostate churches. "Some of you in here don't even want God, you just want to justify your lifestyles." I'm wondering if the Holy Spirit can be grieving over those faithful Christians who continue to speak with those who have displayed a hatred for God and His Word. hide

  • Wed Aug 19, 2009 11:51 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 4

    Flagged as inappropriate. show "Throughitall quoted a revelation scripture about ‘not adding to this book’..." But Luther added to Jesus' Our Father, "For thine is the kingdom and the power and the gloryt forever." Jesus never said this. So what's the beef? hide

  • Wed Aug 19, 2009 11:48 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 4

    Flagged as inappropriate. show "How can one say with certainty that a democratic vote was clearly the Holy Spirit leading them into all truth, especially given those in this article who have an agenda for the oxymoron called gay marriage?" The false concept of Sola Scriptura allows anyone to make the Bible say what they want it to say; thus this is the why of the confusion abounding here. hide

  • Wed Aug 19, 2009 11:43 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 6

    Flagged as inappropriate. show "changing church doctrine by means of a council of elders has been going on since the Council of Nissea... Doctrine doesn't change. All that there is in the deposit of faith ... the doctrine is interpreted by the successors of Peter and the Apostles who were given the authority...by Jesus: "Whosoever you bind on earth shall be bound in Heaven; whatsoever you loose upon earth shall be loosed in Heaven. Whoever hears you...hears Me. hide

  • Wed Aug 19, 2009 11:37 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 7

    Flagged as inappropriate. show "How do I know that? Because the ‘Bible’ was not formed until hundreds of years after the death of the author..." Now this guy knows the truth; Not until 397 A.D. hide

  • Wed Aug 19, 2009 11:08 pm Agree: 5   Disagree: 0

    Flagged as inappropriate. show There is a great misunderstanding with many of the people at that conference and many people posting on this story. Here it is: The Bible says in Jeremiah 31:34-34, “Behold, days are coming,” declares the LORD, “when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah, not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them,” declares the LORD. “But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days,” declares the LORD, “I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. “They will not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, ‘Know the LORD,’ for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them,” declares the LORD, “for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.” God writes His laws on His people's hearts. Jesus said Himself in Matthew 7:14, “For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it." Why do people at that conference disagree? Why do people who are here, claiming to be Christians disagree? It's because God never put His law in their hearts, because they never entered into a new covenant with Him because they never were regenerated since they never repented and believed in Christ! You say, "Oh! I believe!" However, mental ascent to some doctrine will not make you a Christian any more than mental ascent to auto mechanics makes you a car. There must be repentance and a turning away from sin! I will guarantee you this: most of church history is full of people who were not Christians! They pretended. They did stuff in the name of God, but they were no more Christian than a hamburger ever could be. The supposed American "Church" today is full of carnal, unregenerate people who pretend to be Christians and force denominations in big conferences to make decisions that are against the Word of God. EXAMINE YOURSELVES. Some of you in here KNOW FULL WELL that you exhibit almost NONE of the Godly characteristics that a true Christian would show. And for those of you who are unsaved and don't realize it, it's because you don't know the Word of God and you've never heard a true Gospel. You heap up teachers that say what you want to hear and therefore you will will have no one else but yourselves to blame. I know this is hard, but it is the truth. True Christians grow in holiness and a desire for God. Some of you in here don't even want God, you just want to justify your lifestyles. hide

  • Wed Aug 19, 2009 10:00 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    Flagged as inappropriate. show The Rev. Paull Spring of State College, Pa.,.........makes the best statement in the whole article. I hope they listen to him. hide

  • Wed Aug 19, 2009 9:43 pm Agree: 6   Disagree: 0

    Flagged as inappropriate. show "All I suggest is that perhaps we should open up our minds . . ." And ignore the clear instructions in Scripture? No thank you. hide

  • Wed Aug 19, 2009 9:42 pm Agree: 4   Disagree: 0

    Flagged as inappropriate. show "When we first came into this country we still believed that God had given the entire earth to only HIS people (Christians) and therefore we had the right to seize and claim any property owned by the ‘ungodly’."' Rubbish. Where did you study history? The first English settlers in the New World were fleeing religious persecution on the other side of The Pond, but those first settlers lived in peace and harmony with the Native Americans. At NO TIME did they ever say that "God had given the entire earth to only HIS people (Christians)." hide

  • Wed Aug 19, 2009 9:27 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 4

    Hello!

    I think what many of the people here have tried to say is that: "our perspective of the bible has indeed changed throughout history".

    I believe this cannot be denied; the bible even has an example of this.

    Before Jesus's time, many believers believed that one should not work during the Sabath from reading the Word of God. In a way, Jesus told them exactly what a lot of people here are saying: "Your interpretation is wrong; healing on the Sabbath is not a sin."

    The problem is, I don't think anybody here can claim that they have the authority of Jesus and is able to provide a final and accurate interpretation of the bible.

    All I suggest is that perhaps we should open up our minds and not be as stubborn as the pharisees, and perhaps ask ourselves: "have we misinterpreted the bible? how should we understand it?"

    And which is why these denominations have come together for a discussion - perhaps they feel that the wisdom of God is better understood with the combined wisdom of more human beings than only themselves.

  • Wed Aug 19, 2009 8:10 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 5

    Odd that they still teach that ‘flat-earth’ concept as embraced by the Church of Rome in comprehensive religious and history studies at the college level but from what I have seen over the years in incorrect educational ‘truths’ it would not surprise me. However, picking on a rather moot point within a larger argument is avoiding the totality of the argument.
    So my racist assumptions are amazing? What on earth to you mean by that? Dropping the whole ‘earth was flat’ idea...we still have an ancient church who believed only Anglo-Saxons were going to heaven and that women were second-class citizens. My point was that ‘interpretation’ of scripture has changed over the years. You yourself are a product of that change and refusing to admit there is an elephant standing in front of you does not suddenly make it disappear.
    When we first came into this country we still believed that God had given the entire earth to only HIS people (Christians) and therefore we had the right to seize and claim any property owned by the ‘ungodly’. The church no longer promotes or accepts this idea and I would guess neither do you. Another example of church doctrine being changed in a council such as the one listed above.
    My pint was, regardless of whether or not you agree with the outcome, changing church doctrine by means of a council of elders has been going on since the Council of Nissea. It is a progressing (most of the time) of the Holy Spirit within a stubborn and ignorant peoples.
    And I have never, ever, expressed anything that can be construed as having a ‘low opinion’ of God and Christian believers. I am one.

  • Wed Aug 19, 2009 7:56 pm Agree: 4   Disagree: 0

    lo,
    you are so misinformed and decieved it is sad. Why do you read or
    write to the Christian Post if you have such a low view of God and His
    followers? The Bible does not and never did say anything about a flat
    earth. It has been Christian men and women who have led every movement
    that has improved mankind. God is very able to write, and preserve His
    words. Shame on anyone who thinks they are better then the Holy Spirit.
    Your own racist assumtions are amazing.
    To think you can improve on Gods word is arrogance personified.
    "The modern incorrect belief that medieval Christianity believed in a flat earth has been referred to as The Myth of the Flat Earth.[1] In 1945, it was listed by the Historical Association (of Britain) as the second of 20 in a pamphlet on common errors in history.["

  • Wed Aug 19, 2009 6:59 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 6

    Throughitall quoted a revelation scripture about ‘not adding to this book’. Two points: While I agree that one should not change scripture, the Book of Revelation was only referring to the Book of Revelation and not the entirety of the Bible. How do I know that? Because the ‘Bible’ was not formed until hundreds of years after the death of the author. In his time there was no Bible. He was only referring to HIS book. Namely, Revelation.
    Next point: They are not trying to change scripture or re-write anything. They are voting on interpretation of scripture and how that applies to modern man. Same thing as when we ‘changed’ our definition of scripture to allow for a round earth, black getting into heaven, inter-racial marriage and female equality within our society. Whether or not you agree with the standpoint of this church, unless you believe only Anglo-Saxon peoples are going to heaven and the earth is flat, YOURE CURRENT BELIEFS were at one point changed in a council such as this.

  • Wed Aug 19, 2009 6:08 pm Agree: 3   Disagree: 0

    A Warning
    18 For I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book; 19 and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.20 He who testifies to these things says, “Surely I am coming quickly.” Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus! 21 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.

  • Wed Aug 19, 2009 6:04 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 6

    They better not be serving shrimp at these meetings. That would constitute an abandonment of scripture as well.

  • Wed Aug 19, 2009 4:11 pm Agree: 10   Disagree: 0

    hm,

    Your apostasy evidently knows no bounds...

  • Wed Aug 19, 2009 3:15 pm Agree: 5   Disagree: 14

    Flagged as inappropriate. show It doesn't seem right for Christians to discriminate against gay people considering that Jesus may very well have been gay. hide

  • Wed Aug 19, 2009 2:24 pm Agree: 9   Disagree: 2

    (The debate, Spring says, is not about sex. Rather, it's about the source of authority in the ELCA.)

    And therein lies the problem. Many flock to the denomination to escape what they perceive as legalism. Now, we are left with a denomination that cannot rightly claim to have ANY authority other than the Bible. How can one say with certainty that a democratic vote was clearly the Holy Spirit leading them into all truth, especially given those in this article who have an agenda for the oxymoron called gay marriage?

    This has to be such an embarrassment for people who grew up in the denomination and are struggling to be ambassadors for Christ. Lord Jesus, protect the flock from those who seek to divide a house against itself so that it cannot stand. Amen.

  • Wed Aug 19, 2009 11:53 am Agree: 9   Disagree: 4

    So, Lutheran, Anglican, Episcopal, Methodists, and most Presbyterians have left the Word of God on this issue.

    Who is next? The rest of the Reformed, Baptists and non-denominational?

    Very troubling. I will pray for these communions.

  • Wed Aug 19, 2009 11:48 am Agree: 8   Disagree: 1

    (Opponents of the statement argued that adopting it would constitute abandonment of Scripture)

    DUH!!!!!

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