Updated 11:59 pm.EST, Fri November 20, 2009

Opinion|Tue, Sep. 15 2009 10:54 AM EDT

A Tale of Two Atheists

By R. Albert Mohler, Jr.|Christian Post Guest Columnist

The Wall Street Journal may be an unusual venue for theological debate, but this past weekend's edition featured just that - a theological debate of sorts. The "of sorts" is a necessary qualifier in this instance, because The Wall Street Journal's debate was not, as advertised, a debate between an atheist and a believer. Instead, it was a debate between two different species of atheists.

The paper's "Weekend Journal" section front page for the September 12-13, 2009 edition featured articles by Richard Dawkins and Karen Armstrong set in opposing columns. The paper headlined the feature as "Man vs. God: Two Prominent Thinkers Debate Evolution, Science, and the Role of Religion." Well, the feature at least looked interesting.

Dawkins, after all, is probably the world's most famous atheist. At the same time (and not coincidentally, he would insist) he is also the world's foremost defender of Darwin and evolutionary theory. Karen Armstrong is a popularizer of works on world religion. She takes a basically benign view of religion, arguing that the different religions of the world are avenues toward the same quest for meaning. A former nun, she has written several books on themes and figures related to Islam, and she is a critic of what she terms "fundamentalist" religion. She is a critic of "fundamentalism" on whom the media can depend for comment.

The paper presented the articles by Dawkins and Armstrong in an interesting format. The article by Dawkins is headlined, "Evolution Leaves God with Nothing to Do." Armstrong's essay is headlined, "We Need to Grasp the Wonder of Our Existence."

Predictably, Dawkins begins his article with Charles Darwin and the theory of evolution. Evolution, Dawkins claims, has simply displaced God. "Evolution is the universe's greatest work. Evolution is the creator of life, and life is arguably the most surprising and most beautiful production that the laws of physics have ever generated," he asserts. Quoting a T-shirt, Dawkins insists that evolution "is the greatest show on earth, the only game in town."

As for God, evolution just renders deity a useless and vacuous concept. "Where does that leave God?," Dawkins asks. "The kindest thing to say is that it leaves him with nothing to do, and no achievements that might attract our praise, our worship or our fear."

Evolution, he continues (presumably less kindly), "is God's redundancy notice, his pink slip." God, who never existed in the first place, has now been fired.

Demonstrating the point that this exchange is really not a meaningful debate, Karen Armstrong begins her essay with this amazing statement: "Richard Dawkins has been right all along, of course - at least in one important respect. Evolution has indeed dealt a blow to the idea of a benign creator, literally conceived. It tells us that there is no Intelligence controlling the cosmos, and that life itself is the result of a blind process of natural selection, in which innumerable species failed to survive."

Furthermore, she asserts that human beings "were not the pinnacle of a purposeful creation; like everything else they evolved by trial and error and God had no direct hand in their making."

And yet, Armstrong insists that Darwin really did God a favor by forcing us to give up our "primitive" belief in his actual existence - thus freeing us to affirm merely a "God beyond God" who exists only as a concept.

Along the way, Armstrong offers a superficial and theologically reckless argument that comes down to this: Until the modern age, believers in God were not really believers in a God who was believed to exist. Then along came Sir Issac Newton and the "modern" belief that God must exist in order to be God. When Darwin came along to show "that there could be no proof for God's existence," he was doing God a favor - allowing his survival as a mere symbol.

She makes statements that amount to elegant nonsense. Consider this: "In the ancient world, a cosmology was not regarded as factual but was primarily therapeutic; it was recited when people needed an infusion of that mysterious power that had - somehow - brought something out of primal nothingness: at a sickbed, a coronation or during a political crisis." So she would have us to believe that, in centuries past, cosmology was merely therapy. She simply makes the assertion and moves on. Will anyone believe this nonsense?

Armstrong calls for the emergence of "a more authentic notion of God." Her preferred concept of God would be about aesthetics, not theology. "Religion is not an exact science but a kind of art form," she intones.

Interestingly, it is Dawkins, presented as the unbeliever in this exchange, who understands God better than Armstrong. In fact, Richard Dawkins the atheist rightly insists that Karen Armstrong is actually an atheist as well. "God's Rotweiller" sees through Armstrong's embrace of a "God beyond God."

He writes: "Now, there is a certain class of sophisticated modern theologian who will say something like this: "Good heavens, of course we are not so naive or simplistic as to care whether God exists. Existence is such a 19th-century preoccupation! It doesn't matter whether God exists in a scientific sense. What matters is whether he exists for you or for me. If God is real for you, who cares whether science has made him redundant? Such arrogance! Such elitism."

Clearly, this "certain class of sophisticated modern theologian" refers to those theologians who embrace theological non-realism. Dawkins clearly lumps Karen Armstrong in the same category of deluded theologians.

"Well, if that's what floats your canoe, you'll be paddling it up a very lonely creek," Dawkins warns. "The mainstream belief of the world's peoples is very clear. They believe in God, and that means they believe he exists in objective reality, just as surely as the Rock of Gibraltar exists. If sophisticated theologians or postmodern relativists think they are rescuing God from the redundancy scrap-heap by downplaying the importance of existence, they should think again."

We should at least give Dawkins credit here for knowing what he rejects. Here we meet an atheist who understands the difference between belief and unbelief. As for those, like Armstrong, who try to tell believers that it does not matter if God exists - Dawkins informs them that believers in God will brand them as atheists. "They'll be right," Dawkins concludes.

So the exchange in The Wall Street Journal turns out to be a meeting of two atheist minds. The difference, of course, is that one knows he is an atheist when the other presumably claims she is not. Dawkins knows a fellow atheist when he sees one. Careful readers of The Wall Street Journal will come to the same conclusion.

Adapted from R. Albert Mohler Jr.'s weblog at www.albertmohler.com.
___________________________________________________

R. Albert Mohler, Jr. is president of The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary in Louisville, Kentucky. For more articles and resources by Dr. Mohler, and for information on The Albert Mohler Program, a daily national radio program broadcast on the Salem Radio Network, go to www.albertmohler.com. For information on The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, go to www.sbts.edu. Send feedback to mail@albertmohler.com. Original Source: www.albertmohler.com.
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  • Wed Sep 23, 2009 10:22 pm Agree: 6   Disagree: 0

    What is astounding about this is that Dawkins and Armstrongs comments about Evolution are at least as equally wrongheaded as the comments about religion. Dawkins claims that Evolution is the creator of life. I can just see the true biologists cringing in frustration at such a fundamental misrepresentation of Evolution.
    Armstrong is just as bad with her claim that evolution tells us that there is no Intelligence controlling the cosmos. Every true scientist will declare that it is beyond the scope of science and the scientific method to shed any light one way or the other on the existence of a creator.
    Just incredible.

  • Fri Sep 18, 2009 3:01 pm Agree: 9   Disagree: 1

    2 Thessalonians 2:10-12 (King James Version)

    10And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

    11And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

    12That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

  • Thu Sep 17, 2009 9:30 pm Agree: 6   Disagree: 0

    Slacker,

    Let me know when I can place my order...

  • Thu Sep 17, 2009 5:45 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Wowie,

    No.

    "Hell" and its associated phrases are part of the language. It would be difficult to remove all religious references from one's vocabulary owing to how saturated our culture has been by religion from early times. An atheist couldn't even say "goodbye" (God be with ye) by that standard.

  • Thu Sep 17, 2009 2:34 pm Agree: 9   Disagree: 0

    Dawkins: "But if science can’t answer that question, then it’s sure as hell theology can’t either."

    Does anyone else think it strange that Dawkins would use the phrase "sure as hell"?

  • Thu Sep 17, 2009 1:06 pm Agree: 7   Disagree: 0

    "An atheist can no more describe the nature of God nor understand the logic of His existence any more than a fly can understand the aerodynamic trajectory of a fast approaching windshield"

    I may have to make a T-shirt out of this one...

  • Thu Sep 17, 2009 1:04 pm Agree: 5   Disagree: 0

    "FACT: That grave in Jerusalem is still empty after 2000 years and neither the pharisees nor Dawkins have been able to put Christ back in it."

    AMEN, that is why I put my faith not in Dawkins, but the true kind of the world, my savior Jesus Christ...

  • Wed Sep 16, 2009 4:23 pm Agree: 4   Disagree: 0

    Ya know...I was being sarcastic with my last post... and wouldnt ya know.... Dawkins debated a Catholic named Quinn... turns out it was a very well known debate... and Dawkins got his hat handed to him... basically Dawkins attitude is.... if science cant explain "matter" religion sure as heck cant....

    Here is the link....

    http://catholiceducation.org/articles/science/sc0086.htm

  • Wed Sep 16, 2009 4:12 pm Agree: 4   Disagree: 0

    Q?: Professor Dawkins... you will admit that matter can neither be created nor destroyed?

    Dawkins: Yes... but if you are oging to ask me where did the original matter come from thaty's a stupid question. It doesnt matter.

  • Wed Sep 16, 2009 4:11 pm Agree: 4   Disagree: 1

    Well.. here is the end of the story... every knee will bow down to Christ...either on their way to heaven or hell...

  • Wed Sep 16, 2009 1:33 pm Agree: 4   Disagree: 0

    They just used flawed observation and draw false conclusions. I look at the natural world and see God, and God tells us so in the book of Romans, no one has an excuse to not see God in what has been made. And there is so much good science to support the universe as created by God. The universe is a dangerous place, and see how perfectly protected the earth is within it.

    And with evolution you have to break it down to micro vs. macro evolution. There is no evidence for macro evolution, and science is starting to realize that micro evolution is preprogrammed into DNA.

    Let's throw in some very good scientific work on near death experiences, and a doctor actually concluding that a few patients had witnessed resuscitation efforts on their own bodies from outside. They described those efforts having no medical expertise, which the doctor confirmed through their records. Many reported life reviews and meeting who they thought was Jesus before being resuscitated. The interesting thing about these cases, was the NDE changed the way these people lived their lives. And there were those that suffered a much darker NDE as well who also came away from the experience with a changed life.

    If we are spirit and exist outside our bodies beyond death, doesn't that make any information about eternity beyond this life very important? Is there a God? Did he reach out to us so we would know him and what to do? The answer is yes, God came to earth as a man, Christ Jesus, and reconciled mankind to God for those that repent and believe in him.

  • MGT2 »
    Wed Sep 16, 2009 12:51 pm Agree: 3   Disagree: 1

    (As for God, evolution just renders deity a useless and vacuous concept. "Where does that leave God?," Dawkins asks. "The kindest thing to say is that it leaves him with nothing to do, and no achievements that might attract our praise, our worship or our fear.")

    What an amazing tool the English language is! We can use it in the most artful way to eloquently and poetically express our thoughts--even if those thoughts are, in themselves, the meditation of fools; the epitome of nonsense.

    Ever notice the pronouncements of evolutionists about the irrelevance of God? Take for example the pronouncement that "God is dead!" issued by Friedrich Nietzsche, he thought the matter was settled!

    The thing is, people like Dawkins will always come out of the woodworks and proclaim, based upon what they call science, that the very idea of God is foolish. But I am not bothered by that. In a few years, another athiest will make the same pronouncement and then die, and then stand before the very God in judgement.

    Then, the cry will be, "Woe is me, for He LIVES!!"

    Too late.

  • Wed Sep 16, 2009 12:07 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 1

    This great Atheist push by Dawkins is his answer to the fact that people still turn to religious leaders and to the likes of Jesus for answers to the ultimate questions. Scientists (of which I are one) can, in the end, only describe existence, not explain it. Dawkins wants us to fall at the feet of this lot and say, "You, the white coat crowd, are our gods, since some of you have so ably destroyed God. Explain everything to us!" Sorry, Dawk, it don't fry the fish for most of us.

  • Wed Sep 16, 2009 11:23 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    If you still have problem with my comment. Look at this film in http://www.darwinsdilemma.org/.

  • Wed Sep 16, 2009 10:12 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Dr. Mohler, You really hit the issue right on the head. Darwin, after all, is not that great as a historical figure that brings us better understanding of nature like Newton. He is really more successful as a great propagandist. That is why the feature article here on the film "Creation" on Darwin is so misleading. Many modern theologians, even here on this web site, buy into it. What a shame.

  • Wed Sep 16, 2009 7:56 am Agree: 3   Disagree: 2

    DAWKINS is an angry man... in one Q&A he actually said that asking the quesation: "Why was man created" is a stupid question... I guess he is now also the arbitor of what inquiring questions are valid in the pursuit of knowledge.....

    He is a bitter man...which most atheists sadly are...

  • Tue Sep 15, 2009 11:35 pm Agree: 4   Disagree: 2

    FACT: Darwin is still in the grave
    FACT: Carl Sagan is still in the grave
    FACT: Dawkins will one day die and will rot in the grave

    FACT: That grave in Jerusalem is still empty after 2000 years and neither the pharisees nor Dawkins have been able to put Christ back in it.

  • Tue Sep 15, 2009 7:16 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 3

    Flagged as inappropriate. show "opinion ... opinion ... opinion and an unscientific assertion ... opinion and an unscientific assertion ... opinion and an unscientific assertion ... baseless opinions" Baseless opinions all. Why the paranoia? hide

  • Tue Sep 15, 2009 1:07 pm Agree: 7   Disagree: 2

    From the original article:

    "Richard Dawkins has been right all along" - opinion

    "Evolution has indeed dealt a blow to the idea of a benign creator" - opinion

    "there is no Intelligence controlling the cosmos" - opinion and an unscientific assertion.

    "human beings were not the pinnacle of a purposeful creation" - opinion and an unscientific assertion

    "our understanding of God is often remarkably undeveloped, even primitive" - opinion and an unscientific assertion

    As usual, the vitriolic atheist lays out a litany of baseless opinions shrouded in the scientific lingo of their religion: evolution, led by their high priest: Dawkins.

    An atheist can no more describe the nature of God nor understand the logic of His existence any more than a fly can understand the aerodynamic trajectory of a fast approaching windshield.

    If the universe were a mindless accident, why would it display any order at all, in particular, why would it obey laws? Laws of nature make sense in a Christian worldview; they are descriptions of the consistent, logical way that God upholds the universe. But if there is no God, how do you account for the existence of laws?

    The universe is full of change; almost everything in the physical universe is constantly changing. Yet, we all assume that the laws of nature do not. The Christian has a rational reason to believe this. But in the secular view, such an assumption is totally arbitrary, and therefore irrational. Yet, the assumption of uniformity is a requirement for science and technology. When the people at NASA send a rocket into space, they assume that the laws of gravity, motion, and thermodynamics will continue to operate in the future as they have in the past. Virtually everyone assumes this to be true, but only the Christian worldview provides a logical justification for such an assumption.

    So, the real question is this: how can you assume that the laws of nature will continue to operate tomorrow as they have in the past? How can we assume anything about a future that no one has experienced? Only the Christian has a cogent answer. Yet, without uniformity, science and technology would be impossible. The unbeliever must unwittingly borrow concepts like the uniformity of nature from the Christian worldview in order to do science.

    When it comes to issues of how the universe operates, why is it that the future reflects the past? You might say, “Well, it always has; so, I assume it always will.” But this is circular reasoning; you’d have to already know that the future reflects the past in order to argue this way. In other words, by using past experience (“well it always has”) as an indicator of what will happen in the future (“so I assume it always will”), one must already assume that the future will be like the past. Otherwise, past experience would be totally irrelevant to the future.

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